JayMartin
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[00:00:00] Guy Marcozzi: ~Um, well, ~hello everybody. Welcome again to the GBA, ~uh, ~geo Heroes podcast. Very excited to have with us today. Jay Martin. Welcome, Jay.

[00:00:09] Jay Martin: Hello guy. ~Um, ~glad to be here. Excited about, ~uh, ~the next little bit here and having a conversation.

[00:00:14] Guy Marcozzi: Okay, Jay, could you just give us a little background on, ~uh, ~introduce yourself?

[00:00:18] Jay Martin: Sure. ~and ~raised in Louisville, Kentucky, ~uh, transplant itself. Um. ~In 1979, after I got outta grad school, thought I'd stay a couple of years, ~uh, ~in Nashville. And 45 years later, ~uh, ~here I am, a couple of homes, three grown kids, five grandkids. So, ~uh, Nashville's, uh, ~Nashville's what I call home these days.

[00:00:35] ~So, uh, again, ~I'm married 45 years, three grown kids. ~So, yeah, it's been, uh, it's been interesting. ~Retired recently, two years ago from full-time ~with, uh, ~with WSP, still consulting back some with them. ~Uh, ~I was a senior vice president and ~then, um, I ~got a little side gig here and there too. ~So it's, uh, ~it's all good.

[00:00:50] Guy Marcozzi: It is interesting. ~Uh. ~Wanna ask you to introduce yourself and how people, ~uh, ~do that. ~You, ~you start with where you are and your family, and then only later on you sort of get into your career, which [00:01:00] is, ~uh, ~sort of interesting. 'cause ~in a, ~in the US it seems like a lot of us define ourselves by our career.

[00:01:05] Jay Martin: ~Well, ~family's a big part of that and always has been for me, ~uh, ~in that mix. And, ~um, ~you know, that perpetual struggle with work-life balance as you're forging a career. So, ~uh, ~something always in the forethought ~I.~

[00:01:14] Guy Marcozzi: Well, I'm anxious to hear more about how that came to be. So the format of these is we kind of start off ~and, ~and just get to know our guests better. And I think a really important way to know our guests is just learn about them growing up. So could you just tell us what you were like growing up ~a little bit?~

[00:01:29] ~What were your what? At your earliest age.~

[00:01:29] Jay Martin: Well, you know, outside kid for sure. ~And, um, ~enjoyed sports, ~um, ~in that mix. ~Um, so. ~Anything that would get me out there. ~And, uh, ~we had a pretty good, ~the ~neighborhood I grew up in ~was, um. ~Certainly working class. ~Um, ~a lot of my family members ~and extended ~did well to get outta high school at that point in time, ~uh, ~given their age and where they came from. So a lot of folks in the trades, carpenters, electricians, machinists, ~those kinds of things. ~So either involved in construction or manufacturing, a lot of them. ~And was kind of that way. So ~probably stronger ties to the kids I grew up with in the neighborhood ~than, ~than the schools ~that ~I went to, ~uh, ~in elementary and ~in grade school, or excuse me, in ~high school. ~But, so that was, uh, ~that was the early years, ~uh, in that, you~

[00:01:59] Guy Marcozzi: ~Was that in? ~[00:02:00] That was in Louisville.

[00:02:01] Jay Martin: yeah, ~so first, uh, ~so born and raised there. Through school and actually graduated the University of Louisville. So, ~uh, ~master's degree. ~So ~did my long tenure there ~in, ~in Louisville, only left to find work. ~So, um, ~the economy wasn't all that great ~in, uh, ~in 79, got worse as the eighties went on, but, ~uh, ~but yeah, that's what, ~uh, ~that's what got me outta Louisville was that first professional opportunity.

[00:02:21] ~So.~

[00:02:21] Guy Marcozzi: ~I think, uh, ~I think of Louisville. I think of bourbon and horses. Have ~any, ~any relationship to either of those

[00:02:26] Or basketball?

[00:02:29] Jay Martin: Yeah, that Permut betting, I grew up thinking that was just the way of life. I didn't realize that wasn't in every city, in every country. ~So, yeah. ~Some folks will think that's in the south and it's not. It's a pretty blue collar kind of city with a lot of manufacturing. ~Um, ~184 miles south to Nashville was a cultural shift for me ~when I moved, uh, ~when I moved down here. But a good place, ~uh, ~Nashville, nowhere near the size, it is now a sleepy little backwater town, ~uh, ~in the late seventies. But, ~uh, ~through some great leadership's become a, a great place and a international destination really these [00:03:00] days. But, ~uh. ~Steve. Yeah. ~Uh, ~lots of, ~uh, ~lots of horse racing ~in there. Um, ~lots of basketball.

[00:03:04] Louisville and Kentucky rivals in that mix. ~So, um, ~big part of childhood, ~uh, ~on that front.

[00:03:09] Guy Marcozzi: So back to ~your, uh, your, ~your interest as a child. Were ~you, ~you a good student when you were going to school, ~you ~interested in math and science? ~What, ~what were you thinking at that point in your life?

[00:03:16] Jay Martin: ~Well, ~let's say I became a better student the older I got ~grade school. Uh, I, I was not, I ~I didn't look forward to going to class, that's for sure. ~Uh, uh, ~grew into that, ~um, ~high school years. ~Um. ~Science, ~uh, ~intrigued me. Math not the strongest subject by stretch. I, I worked hard for the lowly grades. I would get ~in that, uh, at occasion, ~but enjoyed ~science, ~all kinds of sciences in that mix. And, ~um, ~and actually, ~uh, ~when I entered college, ~um, ~went for a two year associate degree. I wasn't sure college was the way I wanted to go, was looking for something shorter term. of Louisville just started a. ~Uh, ~associate technology degree that they thought they would grow into a four year program. Long and short of that, I think I entered in the third year that they had that program, got my associate degree and they never did develop into a four year. ~Um, ~so. [00:04:00] At the end of that tenure, ~uh, ~it became apparent to me that any job I was gonna get was one I could have probably had outta high school.

[00:04:07] Civil engineering technology didn't really catch on and, ~uh, ~enrolled myself ~in a, uh, ~in the engineering program, which was an experience in and of itself. ~Um, ~not many folks. It was a young program. Not many had jumped from technology two year degree into a, into the, ~uh, ~engineering program. So negotiating credits and not starting from zero ~was, was, ~was an experience. And then, ~uh, ~again, a little naive in those days. I didn't understand that the University of Louisville's only engineering accredited program was a master's degree, so I was in it for the long haul.

[00:04:37] Guy Marcozzi: ~No kidding. ~So you signed up to go from two to four year degree and you wound up being a six year degree,

[00:04:40] Jay Martin: I did the University of Kentucky, ~um, ~the accredited four year program, ~uh, ~in the time I started at U of L till the time I got out, they became a state school from a private, ~uh, ~university. So, ~uh, ~they didn't get ~to, ~to garnish that, ~uh, ~four year accreditation. So it was a five year haul, ~uh, ~to get out with a master's. ~So ~that's the route I went.

[00:04:59] Guy Marcozzi: and what was your [00:05:00] master's in?

[00:05:01] Jay Martin: It was in Geotechical. ~Um, ~you know, ~the whole, again, ~an outside guy. I'd had an older brother that was a registered land surveyor and he pressed me into service, ~uh, as a, ~as a teenager, smart enough to hold a plumb bob and the dumb end of the tape over a point. ~So I, and cut line. ~So I got introduced to that and ~you know, ~I knew in my heart I didn't wanna sit at a desk all day.

[00:05:20] So that combination of inside, outside. Civil engineering looked like a thing. They could punch that ticket. I took more and more of those courses, ~uh, ~particularly later on, ~um, ~structural engineering, ~you know, ~chasing dismal points and trying to do indeterminate. That stuff was more math than I wanted to put up with first geotechnical course.

[00:05:40] I had sos whatever, I can't remember the introductory course, ~but. ~It appeared that it was a little looser ~than, uh, ~than meshing matrices together to find out what the load was. And so ~I, ~I gravitated towards that. ~And it was a, ~it was a profession back in the seventies ~too, ~that seemed like it was truly a practice that the more you knew and the more experience you could garnish, the more value you [00:06:00] had ~in the, ~in the workforce.

[00:06:01] ~So ~not looking to get replaced by a computer ~in that mix, even at that, ~even in those days. ~And ~it looked like ~that ~experience counted for a lot, so gravitated towards the geotechnical side.

[00:06:09] Guy Marcozzi: When you say geotechnical, ~I mean we, ~that's a specialty ~of course, ~but there's many specialties within geotechnical. ~Where? ~Where's your proficiency, Jay?

[00:06:16] Jay Martin: I did a lot of deep foundations, ~uh, ~over the years, ~um, ~and a lot of dam and levy work, ~um, before it was all over and, and again ~from, ~you know, ~my career standpoint, I was a practitioner for 10 or 15 years in that mix, but into operations and then drifted onto the technical, ~um. ~path, ~uh, ~developing that with any organization and, and more focused in my latter part of my career on business development.

[00:06:36] So, ~um, ~ it's been a, hop, skip and a jump, you know, ~uh, ~for different roles and responsibilities in that mix over the years. ~I.~

[00:06:42] Guy Marcozzi: So I'll ~get, we'll get, ~get into the career discussion in a little bit, but tell us about ~like, um, in, ~when you look back on your youth, ~you know, where, ~where was your shining star? ~Um, ~you already said you didn't really love ~the, ~the math part. You liked the outside, but ~like, you know, ~describe yourself as a young person, your strengths .

[00:06:56] Jay Martin: Well, ~you know, the, uh, ~I like to think I had a good work ethic ~in that mix. I mean, ~some of my. Early [00:07:00] summer jobs were everything from helping independent, ~uh, ~business guy there and cleaning carpets to, cleaning up on construction sites from a neighbor that was a builder to, I know, or off book jobs, where you're getting paid outta pocket.

[00:07:14] ~Uh, ~but, ~uh, ~had a good, ~uh, ~good work drive in that certainly understood the value of an education. ~Um. ~dad used to tell me quite often, you can have and own a lot of things ~in your life, ~but education is something nobody will ever take away from you. So I took that to heart , and certainly was trying to apply myself to those things, but , not a stellar athlete.

[00:07:33] ~Uh, in that, you know, ~I can remember playing baseball and once we got the 90 foot bases, it was evident ~to everybody. ~Jay didn't have the speed to be a star. ~So, uh, ~realistic about those things. But, ~um. Yeah. You know, like I said, ~fishing ~and, ~and hiking and those things ~were, ~were always, ~uh, ~part of the deal, ~uh, ~for me growing up

[00:07:47] Guy Marcozzi: And that influenced your decision to get into a field that ~you, ~you felt like you could stay outside?

[00:07:51] Jay Martin: for sure. A balance in that. ~I mean, you know. ~Sitting there, chain to the desk is not my idea of a good time. ~Uh, and ~striking that balance, ~like I said, ~between getting out, ~uh, ~and doing things ~and, ~and [00:08:00] being able to, do some office work ~in that mix. Had a, ~had ~a ~great appeal for me , at a young age later on, got more accustomed to sitting behind the desk or getting out and doing other things. But, ~uh, ~but the field work, ~uh. ~Seeing things come outta the ground, ~uh, ~ was impressive on the construction side. ~And again, ~a lot of relatives ~that ~were into building things. So I got a full appreciation for taking pieces and parts and putting that together in something that was beneficial and useful. Yep.

[00:08:26] Guy Marcozzi: So moving forward, ~you're at your, you, ~you've gotten your master's degree. Your surprise master's degree and, ~uh, ~you're into geotechnical. Talk about the early stages of your career. ~You know, ~how did you move into ~your first job, uh, ~your first professional job, and what were the opportunities at that time, and how did you take advantage of those to progress?

[00:08:43] Jay Martin: Yeah, ~so the, um, ~so I interviewed, ~uh, ~several places, ~uh, ~coming out ~of, uh, ~of grad school ~there, um, ~and got an offer to move to Nashville with law engineering ~is ~where I started my career. It was a small office in a. 950 person outfit ~at that point in time, I guess ~specializing ~of course ~in geotechnical and materials. ~So ~I got to jump into the deep end of the [00:09:00] pool there. ~At that time, ~law was good about, ~um, ~baptism by fire ~I mean that ~they were not shy about labeling responsibility on you and sink or swim. So it was good from that standpoint. Got to do, ~uh, ~a lot of cool things, ~uh, ~in a short window of time. 1982, I guess ~it was, ~was ~a, ~a transformational year for me in that mix.

[00:09:18] ~Um, ~got word that I passed my PE in April. Bought my first house in May in Nashville at a whopping, probably 14.5% interest rate. If you remember those days.

[00:09:32] Guy Marcozzi: Yeah.

[00:09:33] Jay Martin: Homeowner holds a second mortgage for me so I can afford to get in there. ~Uh, ~so paying two mortgages. We had our ~first son, uh, ~first child. ~first of, ~of that year. ~And, uh, ~law engineering laid me off in August. So ~it was, it was, ~it was an interesting four or five months in that stretch. ~I mean, ~the economy was, ~uh, ~headed in the wrong direction, ~uh, ~inflation running rampant. ~Uh, you know, ~they had to trend the sales, ~uh, ~across the board. So, long story short, within two weeks, ~uh. ~Had managed to [00:10:00] find another gig, ~uh, ~with Geologic Associates in Middle Tennessee, and that's where I first met Ed Wilson, a former president of, of G-B-A-A-S-F-E at the time, as well as Ken Darnell, ~uh, ~who was running the Knoxville operation. So I had ~a, ~a great opportunity there from 83 on to be around those two guys ~and, um, ~and see how they. Led and grew the company. ~Um, so that was a, ~that was a huge benefit for me, ~uh, ~in falling into that position ~as, ~as luck would have it.

[00:10:26] Guy Marcozzi: Jay, can I interrupt for a second? ~So, ~when you talk about Ed and Ken, ~how, how do you, ~did they take special interest in you or did you feel like they did ~and, ~and did you experience some mentoring through them?

[00:10:36] Jay Martin: ~for sure ~Ken later on, ~ed. Um. ~Early in the process. ~'cause we were ~in the same office, ~uh, ~in Nashville ~and we were, ~we were experiencing some great growth as an organization. ~I mean, ~we took Geologic Associates from, ~what it was with ~a couple office locations and grew a civil engineering practice as well as a mining business.

[00:10:52] And, ~uh, ~environmental, ~uh, ~reformed that into a thing called the Edge Group, which we ended up selling, ~uh, ~into a publicly traded entity [00:11:00] in the late eighties. ~But, but yeah, ~worked closely with Ed. Guy, ~um, ~good mentor in that mix. ~Um, ~more than willing to give you an opportunity to go take on as much as you might want to. The great thing about those guys is they, and I've tried to instill this in my children ~and, ~and other folks that I've mentored, you wanna be at a place where, nobody is threatened by your success. that they'll do whatever they can to. Tee you up to be that successful person and have no problem sharing the spotlight ~and, ~and giving you the kudos ~if you've earned them that ~you deserve. ~And ~it's a great way to treat people. And it's the way I've tried to treat people ~and ~I've hopefully instilled that ~in, ~in folks ~that ~I've mentored as well as my own kids to behave that way. 'cause it's, it's certainly breeds a great work environment and, ~um, ~and creates a lot of good for everybody, ~uh, ~in that mix. ~yeah, um, ~worked closely with Ed later on. Ed went off to do other things after we sold out, ~um, ~to the publicly traded entity, and then, ~uh, ~aligned with [00:12:00] Ken as he took on different roles and responsibilities and had a chance to be mentored by him as well in that mix. So, all good stuff,

[00:12:06] Guy Marcozzi: ~What was, ~what was Ken's? Style of mentoring.

[00:12:08] Jay Martin: ~Ken. ~Ken was, ~are, shoot, shucks. I'm just, ~ from the south, don't know much about anything kind of persona, which was the farthest thing from the truth. ~in the best sense of the world of the word, but uh, ~good technical guy and great with clients. ~I mean, um, ~I learned a lot from him and Ed about how to manage clients and meet their expectations and listen, ~uh, to, uh, ~to what we really needed to do and how to grow the business.

[00:12:26] But yeah, Ken, was entertaining for sure.

[00:12:29] Guy Marcozzi: Is there anything that stands out in terms of, ~uh, ~a specific lesson you learned from either Ken or Ed regarding, ~say, ~dealing with clients? Like ~what, ~what was the takeaway? ~I. I, I, ~I think it might be interesting to see examples of what mentoring looks like, ~uh, ~you know, successful mentoring.

[00:12:42] Jay Martin: Well, you know ~those, I'm trying to think here. ~Things that stand out in that mix. I mean, with Ed, ~the, um, ~the biggest thing was his willingness. The man had an eye ~for ta ~for talent and , not saying that in a self-serving way, but he could hire some good people and there weren't any HR metrics associated with that.

[00:12:57] The guy just had a good gut on that front and [00:13:00] he would lay little things onto them ~to, ~to try and tee them up ~to, ~to do all they could ~and, ~and to be the person and the leader they could be. And ~again, ~that ~was. ~was one for sure that had no problem, ~uh, ~letting you take the credit and have the success, ~uh, ~and was not threatened at all.

[00:13:15] ~You know, by that, ~I ~can ~remember when he asked me to take on managing the geotechnical group in that mix. ~Um, ~one much discussion in that he decided that was the way that needed to go and you're the guy going forward. ~And, you know, ~I also learned from him that, you know, you can have whatever word chart you want, but. People follow leaders they feel comfortable falling in behind , and building that trust and confidence with. And the org chart doesn't put you in charge. You know, the way you treat people and the way you work ~is, ~is what'll get you that respect, ~uh, ~and command those kinds ~of, uh, ~of opportunities.

[00:13:44] So, yeah, it was interesting, Ken. ~again, ~chasing work, learning the client. How to be on point with the proposal effort. One of his tales was, ~again, ~old country boy. would ask, where's the dog dip in this [00:14:00] proposal? And that was related to the old country store down around the county there, where to get people in there on a Saturday, they'd offer a free dog dip.

[00:14:07] So you'd come in there and shop for your dry goods. So what was the bait that's gonna get the client ~to, ~to bite on this one? ~So~

[00:14:14] Guy Marcozzi: ~That's good. ~That's a good lesson. If I can take a pause from your career for a second. So you had mentioned you moved from Louisville to Nashville and ~somewhere you ~got married ~bought a. Um, ~tell me about that cultural shock. You know, what we have to deal with on a personal level at that point in time, both good and bad.

[00:14:27] Jay Martin: Well, you know, so in a Catholic household and went to. Catholic schools all through grade school and high school. So that was a interesting, ~uh, ~foyer into college life. So I lived at home. When I went to school. ~Um, ~didn't have the money to pay for that, so they were gracious enough to allow me to, ~uh, uh, ~eat for free and stay for free. And, ~uh, ~and like many other folks worked my way through, ~um, ~part-time jobs and, ~and, um, ~graduate teaching assistants and those kinds of things. So I. Moving to Nashville, ~um, ~much [00:15:00] more, let's say, ~uh, ~Southern Baptist Field than a Catholic dominated community, which is fine. Cultural diversity in Louisville was much greater.

[00:15:10] I mean, there was ethnic pockets, you know, German community, Italian community, those kinds of things. Nashville ~is sort of, ~at that time was southerners, which is its own ethnicity, I guess, ~in that mix. And I mean that in the best way. ~But it ~was, um. You know, that ~was different ~from, ~from how the city grew up, ~uh, ~Louisville ~versus, ~versus Nashville, both river towns, ~uh, ~Louisville capitalizing much more on its deal with the Ohio than Nashville historically had with the Cumberland. But yeah, it was a slower pace sometimes, ~uh, in that mix. So. A ~better food than, ~than, uh, than, uh, ~in Louisville, minus the cultural aspects there. ~But, um, ~good cook barbecue fell in love with that. So ~it's, ~it's a good deal from that standpoint. But ~yeah, it just, um, ~for the short mileage, it is a very different place to live, ~uh, ~between Louisville and Nashville.

[00:15:53] Guy Marcozzi: Well, that's ~kind of the, the, ~the big part in your life where you're setting new roots and exploring family and new job, ~and you're. ~Working really hard 'cause ~you, ~you [00:16:00] get all ~the, ~the really good assignments of, ~you know, ~working late and far. ~How, ~how did you manage work-life balance at that point in your life?

[00:16:07] ~I.~

[00:16:07] Jay Martin: Probably not very well at times, to be honest, but, ~you know, it's a, ~it's a learning experience, right? ~You, um, ~in the workplace was just a much. Different beast ~than in the, ~than they are today. I mean, working from home wasn't an option. ~I mean, um, ~getting on a plane, ~you know, ~calling in from the, ~uh, ~payphone as opposed to your cell phone.

[00:16:22] ~So, I mean, ~it was just different pressures, ~uh, ~in that mix. But my wife was very supportive ~in that. Um, ~she's a registered dietician, ~a, ~a professional in her own right. ~Um, ~three children. She stayed home. ~Um. ~For a while after the first two. ~Uh, ~and then when the third one came along, ~uh, that we had, um, ~it was evident that financially it was better for her to stay home, take care of the kids than ~thus ~to pay daycare and school.

[00:16:42] ~So, ~so she did, but a lot of support from her ~on that front ~and, ~um, was a, ~was a good partner, ~uh, ~in ~all that and ~helping to balance that out.

[00:16:49] Guy Marcozzi: So back to your career ascension. ~Um, you know, ~you're in a new gig, you're selling off part of the company to a public entity, and you're continuing on, ~um, you know, ~please fill us in on the rest.

[00:16:58] Jay Martin: Well, ~it was a, ~it was a [00:17:00] lot of acquisitions in that mix, ~I guess. And again, a little unique in that. ~I've been in Nashville the whole time, but, ~you know, ~have seven different company names in that mix. ~And ~the reason to stay, ~um, ~I would search each and every one of those acquisitions. 'cause basically you're changing employers without having to do anything.

[00:17:14] ~I. you know, ~is it a place I want to be and do they give me the latitude and the resources that I need to do what I want? ~And, um, ~in all instances that that answer would come back yes. So planet roots and, and grew from there. So yeah, we acquired, we made five different, or we were acquired five different times in that mix.

[00:17:30] ~Um, ~and seven name changes in that. ~But the, and ~the biggest rub there was going from privately held, ~uh, ~both with law engineering and with, ~um, ~the edge group to being publicly traded. All of those entities ~were, ~were traded either on the, ~uh, ~Canadian Exchange or the FSE ~or somewhere in that mix. Um, ~some foreign ownership, ~uh, owner each and ~in each of those times, except for this last one with WSP, which is Canadian, ~still foreign, so it's, um. ~You know, ~you, the to ~month and quarter to quarter performance becomes even more important because you've got stakeholders in that mix. Not that you don't [00:18:00] have ~and ~ownership in a smaller firm or in a privately held firm, but certainly the pressures are much greater, I think, in a public traded, ~uh, ~entity. So. As, as things went on and the organization got bigger and bigger, I'd had a chance to do an operations role and, ~uh, ~with the first acquisition and was managing the Nashville office and some other ones in that mix. And honestly, God, you know, I think I was pretty good at that job, but it wasn't as satisfying as being a practitioner. An opportunity came for me ~to, ~to manage ~a client with a, ~a client program ~for, ~with a large client. ~We had, I, and ~I really enjoyed that and drifted more towards the client management and business development side of the house than the operation side of the house, which was good for me. 

[00:18:42] The other thing I kept my foot in was the technical side. So over the years. As we became larger with that, Ogden acquisition and the amec earthly environment, you needed people to be able to stitch certain disciplines and practices together. ~So ~I managed our geotech practice for a while across [00:19:00] North America ~as we got even larger.~

[00:19:02] We needed somebody to manage our engineering, ~our ~public infrastructure, ~you know, all the. ~Dams, levees, roadways, those types of things, folks doing that kind of work. And I managed that piece, ~uh, ~for a while and help put that third leg on the stool, if you will, with regard to operations development ~as, ~as a role inside the company, practitioner as a role inside the company or marketing.

[00:19:22] And put a emphasis on that technical side, those folks that had the skills that client won. How do we grow those? How do we get. Create a career path out of that. we had some success ~in, ~in doing that and getting some profile. How do people executing jobs find those resources the bigger the organization gets, you can't know everybody's skill sets.

[00:19:40] ~You know, ~you're working across too broad of a platform. ~So ~over the years, ~I, ~I gravitated towards those kinds of things as opposed to, ~um, ~coming up more and more on the operation side of the house.

[00:19:50] Guy Marcozzi: ~Hmm. Interesting. ~So what was the terminus of all that? ~So ~tell us about. ~You're, you're, ~I know you're consulting now with them, ~uh, ~on a part-time basis. 'cause ~you're, you're, ~you're moving towards retirement, but your last full-time job, what was that?[00:20:00] 

[00:20:00] Jay Martin: So I was looking after our, ~um, ~transportation sector, which would include rail transit highway. Ports, airports, ~uh, ~across North America, Canada, and the us. So that was about a $230 million business for us. I guess to stitch those things together and collaborate and coordinate where we needed to, to make sure we're meeting the client's marks ~and, ~and grow the business.

[00:20:24] ~Uh, ~year over year, WSP purchased us, ~um, ~purchased that infrastructure piece, ~uh, from ~from wood, ~what, ~two years ago last. October, ~I guess it was, and ~I was already on the glide slope ~to, ~to head towards retirement then. So stepped out at the end of that year full-time. ~Uh, ~again, still have access back in , and do mostly mentoring, ~uh, back ~with a couple of folks, ~uh, ~on that side, ~but. But yeah, it was, ~I'd hung around to help through the sale ~of, of that, uh, ~to the extent I could. And then, ~uh, it was, ~it was time for me to go.

[00:20:57] Guy Marcozzi: So I have to ask you, Jay, ~like you, ~you've obviously been [00:21:00] successful, but you clearly still have a toe ~in, in, in, ~in the profession. ~So what, ~what drives you now at this stage of your career?

[00:21:06] Jay Martin: You know, ~I, ~I've always enjoyed ~I, ~the business development side, helping organizations grow what they want to do for their clients in mentoring staff. ~Uh, trying to, um, some of that scar tissue, if you will, on uh, on. Self-assessment. ~What is it that you like doing? What is it you don't like doing?

[00:21:19] How do you do more of what you want to do? How do you shore up your weaknesses or double down on your strengths? All those things, ~uh, ~related to being a better professional, ~um, if you will, ~a better person in that mix. ~Um, ~I enjoy coaching and counseling people on that stuff, so ~that's, ~that's my, ~um, ~foot back ~into the place there, uh, on trying in, ~into the profession ~is ~trying to help, ~uh, ~on that front.

[00:21:38] Guy Marcozzi: So that's a great segue to move to ~our, ~our next, ~uh, ~portion of the podcast, which is, ~you know, ~beyond J Martin and more at what does the Geoprofession look like today? How do you. See the profession, ~you know, ~right now as we're talking, ~you know, where, where's it? Well, we kind of know where it's been, but ~where do ~you, ~you view it going?

[00:21:51] What are the key things your professionals need to keep doing going forward? What are the new things that we need to be thinking about doing?

[00:21:59] Jay Martin: Well, [00:22:00] the, ~uh. ~You know, I guess a couple things rattling around in there, guy. ~Um, ~you know, technology, whether that be AI or other things continue to, influence the profession more on the how ~do ~we deliver the product and ~how we ~help clients through ~certain to, uh, indoor ~projects to get them ~to ~where they want to be. You know, that consolidation in the industry, I think. Bigger's not always better. Maybe it is, but that consolidation and, ~uh, again, having come from the publicly traded side, the ~pressures on profitability and growth, ~know, I think those ~continue to be a driver in that mix. ~And I, and I just, the, I.~

[00:22:31] Difference between engineering practice and consulting. ~I think ~there's a, ~um, uh, ~distinction there where some of those things, ~uh, ~the tools that we use on the engineering side, I think it's still a very human related business, ~uh, ~on the consulting side. How do I take those things? Apply them to you for ~either ~better delivery, ~a, ~a shorter amount of effort, or less effort to get to the same point presented in a way that means more to you and to your organization to help you get there.

[00:22:57] ~But, ~but that's all consulting. I mean, that's understanding [00:23:00] what the client needs and where they're trying to get and leverage the technologies and skills we have to do that. ~So. ~I think that'll continue to evolve as it has over the years, we will see where that, ~uh, ~all ends up. But I think the need and demand for the skills that we bring to the table, ~um, will, ~will stay there for sure.

[00:23:18] Guy Marcozzi: You think that's the dog dip?

[00:23:19] Jay Martin: ~Yeah. There you go. ~Exactly. ~And for sure. And the, uh, you know, it's just, uh. ~It's an odd mix of things, ~uh, ~in there ~that, ~that help drive all of that ~to, uh, ~to success hopefully, ~uh, in, ~in individual firms ~and, ~and within the profession, but a lot of things to wrestle with ~and, ~and a lot of change on that front.

[00:23:34] Guy Marcozzi: So if ~you, you, ~ you've mentioned that ~the, ~the problem solving. In the consulting, the helping clients be successful. You think that's ~the, um, the, um, ~the North Star, ~uh, ~that will always be there independent of technology and recession and all of that change?

[00:23:48] Jay Martin: I do, ~uh, ~you know, the one other shift that's occurred in there that's impacting us as we go forward is years ago, decades ago, ~uh, you know, um, ~clients did pretty much what they [00:24:00] wanted for their own self-interests in there. And ~I, ~I can think of, ~um. know, ~the rail industry in its early days, ~you know, ~with their Western expansion.

[00:24:06] I mean, ~you know, ~we wanna get from point A to point B and that's what we're gonna do. ~to those along the way just didn't matter the world we live in today. ~And it's a good thing ~I. ~Pays attention to a lot more, ~uh, ~in that mix. ~And I, again, ~I think that's another thing ~that, ~that has to be balanced ~in that is it's, it's not as selfish for our clients as it used to be. It's, it's, ~there's a concern and stakeholders ~in there ~about what that means for the planet, ~if you will, but what that means ~for society, ~what that means ~for my neighbor. ~And ~if ~all those things are good and ~all those boxes are checked, then ~clearly ~it's good for us and ~good for ~our clients ~to do those things.~

[00:24:24] But there's other drivers in there and other folks with a seat at the table that historically haven't been there. ~I. ~I think that'll continue to grow

[00:24:31] Guy Marcozzi: ~So ~how can geo professionals uniquely position themselves to help clients ~there?~

[00:24:35] Jay Martin: ~Well, ~I think you have to listen and ~you have to ~be aware of those things. It's a balancing act. It's not to say that you can't do what you want ~to do client ~to achieve your objectives. ~just means ~you might have to take some mitigation measures to make that happen. You might have to alter things with ~the ~input from this group or that group. I think it adds value to us ~as being on the front end of those things, ~whether you're doing the environmental permitting, the preliminary design or the geotechnical analysis, ~uh, on the front end ~to [00:25:00] be able to consider those things and ~help. ~Have a more comprehensive project, ~if you will, ~that has the support it needs, ~um, ~in the community than just bulldogging ahead and doing what you wanna do.

[00:25:09] 'cause that helps your self interest. I.

[00:25:12] Guy Marcozzi: Jay, you're in a ~really ~unique position having been through ~a bunch of, you know, ~mergers, acquisitions, and you've seen that and that's really been a trend, ~um, ~in our industry as it's mature geo professionals. Do you see that trajectory continuing or does it implode at some point or fragment or ~like, ~can you project out what might happen there?

[00:25:33] Jay Martin: That's a guessing game for sure. ~I believe. know, there's a. ~I think there's a role for size firms, ~uh, in, ~in the mix there. ~Certainly, ~as I look back, ~you know, questioned myself really. ~You're working for a publicly traded entity. Does that make sense that engineering is being executed that way? ~And the downside is, is that. ~Organizations will tend to make short term decisions 'cause it's all about making plan and you'll ~put, ~eventually ~you ~end up putting good talent on the street, which ~just ~fosters competition. But that's the nature of the [00:26:00] beast and the nature of the ownership. ~You know, the, uh, and ~clearly ~I, ~I've sat there and marveled ~and ~saying, wow, if we weren't as big as we are, there's no way we could have tackled this particular project or ~this particular ~program for the client. didn't have the depth, ~didn't have the ~resources, couldn't invest the time and effort. So it's a balancing act. ~You know, the, ~I think consolidation will continue. ~There's, there's, um. ~There's a lot of drivers in that from ownership transition to, ~um, to just again, ~wanting to play in a bigger pond and ~have, ~be able to do more for the client set that you have. You know, that's a shift that happens too. First few outfits I was working for, we did what we did because we were some of the best at it, and we would do it wherever we had an opportunity ~to do it. Uh, ~if that was in our backyard or halfway across the country. ~I think ~eventually the larger the firm gets, you turn ~your, ~your attention towards, well, I wanna do more work for this client and they have a need that is this service, so I think I'll add that service or grow that portion of the business. So now you're driven by who you wanna work for in addition to the kinds of services you want to develop. So ~it's, ~it's an [00:27:00] interesting mix.

[00:27:01] Guy Marcozzi: It's truly complicated. And I know that's an unfair question asking where it was gonna go, but I think your opinion is ~um, ~, very informed, ~you know, ~relative to. ~You know, ~your perspective and, ~you know, ~anybody's guess is good. So I'm a new entry to the geo profession. ~You know, I, ~I'm early in my career and I see all this change.

[00:27:19] ~And what's, um, ~what's a piece of advice that you could offer somebody early in their career that you think is kind of timeless?

[00:27:25] Jay Martin: Well, ~I would, um. ~I think a couple things, ~uh, ~come to mind. ~Um, you know, ~one is a passion about something, ~uh, and, ~and understand, ~um, ~that some things need to be approached with a sense of urgency and not just when you can get to 'em. I mean, those two things I think, ~um, ~play well in any industry or ~in any ~profession, ~and ~particularly, ~uh, ~in ours, ~um, ~I always look for ways to add value an organization, to a client, or to the practice area that I was working in.

[00:27:54] ~You know, so I. You know, ~I used to talk with my kids about, you know, it's called a minimum wage job for a reason. They're simply buying your [00:28:00] time. You have no skillset. ~They're, ~they're swapping an hour for this much money. The goal is to have a set of talents that they'll pay you for, regardless of how long that takes you to do that.

[00:28:10] ~I mean, they're, ~they're buying a different entity there. ~So ~look for ways to add value, ~uh, in the process ~to the organization ~or, ~or to the clients. ~And I guess my last thought on that would be, um. ~At the end of the day, it's still a people business and your, ~and your individual's ~ability ~to, ~to build trust is paramount.

[00:28:21] ~Uh, in that I think ~both with clients and peers ~in, in that mix to ~to be successful.

[00:28:25] Guy Marcozzi: ~Kind of your, your, ~your response ~kind of ~led me to this question. ~You know, ~for someone who's spent a lot of your career interfacing with clients, ~you know, how, ~how do they view us ~our, ~our now and future clients? How do they view the geo professionals and what are they really looking for in us?

[00:28:38] Jay Martin: The good ones are looking, ~uh, ~as we've preached in GBA, ~you know, ~a trusted advisor in that mix. ~Again, ~I've always encouraged folks to move from working and winning projects, to managing programs for clients, ~you know, ~understand what they're trying to accomplish, see how you can get in there and be a part of who they are, ~um, ~as opposed to simply getting something done for them. [00:29:00] I think the good clients value what we bring to the table as geo professionals. Whether that's, ~again, ~environmental water resources, geotechnical, but you ~have to ~have to understand their organization and, ~and how to, ~how to add that and ~how to ~make them look good inside of their shop. ~Um, and again, the, ~the best clients to have are those that have ambition and wanna move up in their organization 'cause they're the ones that'll take some risk ~in, ~in doing that. ~So, yeah, I, it's a mixed bag. You know, ~I've worked for folks that, ~know, I'm ~working with the procurement and purchasing department to get in the door, and that's not where you want to be. ~Uh, ~if you can get close to the folks ~that are best, ~that are the most benefiting from what you're delivering, then I think they truly see the value in what you bring to the table.


[00:29:37] Guy Marcozzi: ~That's, ~that's good advice because they're very different pathways in.

[00:29:41] Jay Martin: ~Yeah. ~Yeah. And the other thing I used to lean on hard is, you know, ~the, ~it's great to be the technically best person in there. I certainly don't want to be the cheapest person, ~uh, ~in there. But, ~uh, ~what you wanna be is the most responsive person in that mix. ~If you can be to, ~to help those folks look good. ~I.~

[00:29:55] Guy Marcozzi: It's a good point to remember that our clients have a boss. Everybody has a boss, so you're always [00:30:00] reporting out and making people look good and figuring out what their goals are. ~Is that. That's awesome. ~Well, ~so ~let's move to the third segment of our podcast where I'm gonna shift gears to the speed round.

[00:30:10] Jay, are you ready?

[00:30:11] Jay Martin: I'm ready

[00:30:11] Guy Marcozzi: you ~take, ~take a sip of coffee to be ready for speed round. Just a series of questions and, ~you know, just ~tell us what you're thinking. GBA has a lot of, ~uh, you know, ~self-learners and people that are continuous learners, and a lot of folks ~read, ~read great books. I've found it a great resource to find references for books.

[00:30:27] So give us a thought on your favorite book.

[00:30:32] Jay Martin: Well, ~I, I'll admit, ~I don't do an absolute ton of reading, but I do some in that mix ~and on the, um, ~on the business side and probably the time in my career when I came across this, but Steve Covey on, ~um, ~the, ~um. ~Seven Habits of Highly Effective Folks. ~one just ~resonated with me beyond belief ~really, ~and was super helpful at that particular stage of my career with things I was wrestling with.

[00:30:53] It. a good book. , I would recommend that to anybody. And it's one that I've gone back and read more than once. ~Excuse me, ~[00:31:00] for what Covey brings to the table there, as well as his other books in that mix. But ~Seven, ~seven Habits was a good one for me ~on the, ~on the leisure reading side. ~Um. ~Bit of a historical guy on that front. Two periods in history that, the founding fathers in the 16, 17 hundreds, ~uh, ~and Adams and Jefferson and those guys, I've read lots of biographies, ~uh, on, ~on those folks. ~Um, ~as well as the Western expansion in the 18 hundreds. ~you know, I thought, ~I've thought ~about this guy ~about why those appeal to me.

[00:31:25] And a guy who's lived through a lot of change on the company front. compared to what, ~you know, ~the early colonial folks were going through or the westward expansion, ~um, in, in how ~in a lifetime, ~you know, 30, or excuse me, ~60 or 70 years, how much change was shoved into that ~stuff. ~So it's intriguing to me to see how folks dealt with that.

[00:31:41] Guy Marcozzi: You talk about risk takers, ~I mean that ~that's a big risk, right?

[00:31:44] Jay Martin: sure. ~For sure.~

[00:31:45] Guy Marcozzi: So all the change in consolidation that's going on, technology, everything ~in the, ~in the world generally, and the geo profession, , what's your optimism index for our geo profession?

[00:31:55] Jay Martin: Oh, I'd say I'm a solid four out of five on that, with five being the high point there. ~I, ~I [00:32:00] think there's every reason to be optimistic ~as we've talked. ~I think the change will continue in that mix, but I. The, a practitioner and professional standpoint, , you gotta play with your head up ~and ~keep your eyes open and listen. ~Uh, but no, I, I think, um, ~I think there's a role in the world for geo professionals. ~Um, ~I think we understand ourselves pretty well ~in, ~in that mix, and I think there's a lot of value we can add going forward.

[00:32:25] Guy Marcozzi: That's great. I would be worried if you said ~it was, uh, ~you were pessimistic because you have a pretty good read on things. ~Um, ~so look back on the totality of your career arc. ~You know, what, ~what do you feel like your biggest impact has been in your professional career?

[00:32:39] Jay Martin: Well, professional side, ~um, ~I would say it's the. Success folks have had, not because I was their mentor, but watching them be successful ~in that mix. I, ~I ~just ~derive a lot of satisfaction out of, ~um, ~having helped in some small way for those individuals to, ~um, uh, ~meet their challenges ~and to ~build their careers and ~to ~advance, ~uh, um, in their, ~in their [00:33:00] various roles and responsibilities. It's, ~um. ~very rewarding to me ~to, ~to help those individuals ~in that mix. ~There's been lots of good client wins over the years and lots of great projects ~in that mix. ~But like I said before, it's a people business, I believe, folks say that easy about that, managing that resource, but it's a challenge.

[00:33:18] ~Uh, and, and ~I've always enjoyed that. ~And ~on the personal front, ~you know. ~being a parent ~is, ~is a unique opportunity, ~uh, to, uh, ~to have that kind of influence over other human beings, ~uh, ~or at least the kind influence you think you have. They become teenagers, ~uh, ~but mine are all old enough to ~have cycled bike around and ~have kids of their own.

[00:33:33] So it's, it's good from that standpoint. I've, ~uh, ~enjoyed parenting and helped me make, help me be a better person in that mix. So, ~uh, ~I'd put that , in the rewards categories for sure.

[00:33:42] Guy Marcozzi: Those are terrific answers. So this is a tough question and it's hard. ~Um. ~Maybe awkward ~to, ~to answer, ~um, you know, ~fully, but if you had to do it all over again, what would you change? You know, everybody has regrets and ~there's, you know, ~they make us who we are. But if you could rewind things, is there, ~um, ~anything ~you would, ~you would focus on differently ~or?~

[00:33:59] ~I.~

[00:33:59] Jay Martin: ~Well, um, short answer I guess is, um. ~[00:34:00] Nothing really comes to mind on ~a, ~a redo or, ~you know, ~declare a mulligan and let me try again. ~Uh, aspect, I, ~I do agree ~with your, ~with your thought ~there ~that, ~um, you know, ~the things we experience, ~um, ~help make us who we are. My catchphrase is all education comes with the price. Some of it can be painful at times, but ~the old guys, ~the old guide of making all original mistakes, ~so, um. ~The only thing ~that ~I've looked back on ~Guy, ~is that ~if I had, um, ~if I had been more comfortable at an earlier time with taking some risks or managing change, , that's a aspect that if I. What I know now, I would've known then would've been, ~uh, ~easier to cope with some things, ~uh, in that mix. But, ~but all in all, ~you know, ~there's nothing ~I'd, ~I'd wanna rewind and take a different turn ~instead of the right turn, or a zig instead of a zag. Now ~it's all been good from that standpoint and again, help make me who I am today.

[00:34:45] Guy Marcozzi: So that embracing change, ~um, ~kind of spins into a question I asked earlier about advice for someone entering the profession. ~How, ~how would you, ~you know, ~with the knowledge and wisdom that you have now, ~you know, ~impart that on somebody ~that was, you know, ~dealing with those [00:35:00] opportunities and challenges.

[00:35:02] Today.

[00:35:04] Jay Martin: Self-reflection is a powerful thing, ~uh, ~in my mind. ~So, I mean, again, ~as people mature, ~um, I. Enter, um, you know, ~you just have to be open to what you're gonna get dealt ~and, ~and do what you can to make the best of that. Things aren't always gonna go your way. Some of those changes, you'll have an influence over other ones you won't, and you just have to swallow hard and accept or, ~you know, ~go somewhere else, ~uh, ~do something different. But, ~uh, ,~ I'd be open, ~uh, ~, is what I would suggest, ~uh, ~in that mix and try and look for the. Opportunity, ~uh, ~that's in that as opposed to whatever downside you might ~think you ~see, ~uh, ~in those changes.

[00:35:42] Guy Marcozzi: Well, Jay, I think ~we're, ~we're just about running outta time. ~Um, ~you've been wonderful. ~Just ~lots of wisdom and, ~uh, ~experience sharing and, ~and, and, you know, ~some advice. To take away for our listeners, but before we end, I, ~I just, um, ~throw the floor to you. Is there anything else that you wanted to, ~um, ~share today?

[00:35:59] Jay Martin: ~I don't think so, guy, I, ~I appreciate [00:36:00] the opportunity to sit down ~and, ~and chat. It's, ~um, uh, ~been, ~um, ~for me to look back on those things that you've asked about ~and, and, and stack those and, ~and think about 'em. ~But, uh, ~I appreciate the opportunity. It's been a lot of fun.

[00:36:09] Guy Marcozzi: Thanks. I enjoyed it as well. ~So ~thank you Jay Martin, appreciate you being part of the Geo Heroes Podcast. You are a geo hero.