GeoHeroes - Jesse Kropelnicki
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[00:00:00] Guy: welcome listeners. Very excited. We have another great podcast interview today. Welcome Jesse. Glad you could join us.

[00:00:07] Jesse: Thanks guy. Excited to, to be here and share a little bit about what's going on over at Verdantas.

[00:00:13] Guy: Give us a quick bio of yourself, Jesse.

[00:00:15] Jesse: I grew up in New York and I ended up coming to Boston only for college. But in New York, my father was a steel worker, my mother was a musician. Certainly not the white collar background that you think of when you think of a CEO. Early on , in my life, I was working with my dad and I worked with him from the age of probably eight or nine years old, all the way through when I went to college.

[00:00:36] And me A lot about work ethic and how to put in the work day after day and what it's like to be in a trade, right? Burning metal, cutting steel was really what I did at that time. So that. Kind of encompassing my childhood. I was a only child as well. Grew up in the, woods spent a lot time to myself thinking about life and human beings in the future, so that encompasses my childhood.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] Guy: So the father as a steel worker, that sparked your interest in engineering.

[00:01:05] Jesse: It actually did. It was a very specific day that I remember perfectly. I was with my dad. We were on a job site and there was just a foundation. It was the middle of the winter and being in New York in the middle of the winter, it's cold covered in grease and mud and probably some blood as well.

[00:01:20] And a guy pulls up in a Jeep Grand Cherokee. He's nice and clean. He gets out of the warm car, he looks around for a minute or two, gets back in the car and drives away. I said, dad, who the heck was that guy? He said, the engineer. I said, that's what I wanna do. And I remember it to this day.

[00:01:36] Guy: So were you a good student when you were in grade school?

[00:01:39] Jesse: I was not the best student at all. I only really accelerated once I got to college I was interested in everything but school through high school was lucky enough to get into Northeastern University, a great engineering school in Boston with a co-op program. And soon as I got there opposite of what most kids do when they go to college, I really got serious and, [00:02:00] really immersed myself in the study and enjoyed engineering, civil engineering. Its what I have my Bachelor's in.

[00:02:04] Guy: Northeastern is famous for its co-ops, so what type of co-ops did you do while you were in college?

[00:02:10] Jesse: Yeah, the co-op program for me was really important and transformational. Having come from more of the blue collar background, working with my dad as a steel worker, I enjoyed being right out in the field and not just in the classroom after freshman year, so I. My first year or first two years, I actually worked on the Big Dig.

[00:02:27] Some of you may have heard of the Big Dig in Boston. It was a major transformative transportation project to really resculpt the city. And it was amazing. I worked on three separate contracts there, including the major Charles River Bridge, now, the Zakim Bridge. And it was great. And. Although you alternate at Northeastern between work and school, I chose when I was in school to continue working with the co-op.

[00:02:49] So I stayed within Kiewit Construction for two years straight. Actually my second and third year of college, so that was great. And then I transitioned after being in the field working with Kiewit to [00:03:00] Parsons Brinkerhoff spent another two years with Parsons Brinkerhoff. There is where I got into hydropower.

[00:03:05] Guy: Jesse, can I hold you for a second? 'cause I wanna go back. I don't wanna lose your youth in here. What was your field of study in college and how did you choose it?

[00:03:13] Jesse: Yeah, so it was civil engineering was my bachelor's and focused on structural. Again, I was just interested in structural. After working with my dad and working on structural steel, I just felt I was, well, I don't know, oriented and had a good acumen around structures and that was really the focus.

[00:03:29] Guy: Did you have any other jobs before your co-ops you know, just jobs in your youth waiting tables or delivering newspapers or anything like that?

[00:03:36] Jesse: never had those, always had these difficult jobs. Working with my dad, steel worker. The only other job I had was working on a tree crew, cutting down trees and dragging them into chippers, that sort of thing. So again, the work ethic was there and sticks with me today. 

[00:03:51] Guy: Are you good with heights then?

[00:03:53] Jesse: Good enough. You know, if you put me up there today, I don't know if I would be too comfortable, but at the time I was fine with it.

[00:03:59] In your youth, you [00:04:00] take more risks.

[00:04:02] Guy: Hmm. So you're doing structural work or that was your thoughts and you worked on the big dig for some interesting projects. Okay, so let's continue. So you had one job, you got another job, and take us through your career progression.

[00:04:18] Jesse: Yeah, so pretty consistent there. Again, freshman year is the only year you don't have a co-op at Northeastern, so starting my second year, I was continuously working for the remainder of my time in college, two years with Kiewit, two years with Parsons Brinkerhoff, so it was pretty obvious transition. Then after working full, not full-time, but.

[00:04:35] Continuously for two years by the time I graduated, just to go ahead and transition into full-time work. So I did that continuing in that role, doing structural engineering for hydropower projects. I also continued on to get a master's in structural engineering. I just did it in the evenings because I was working.

[00:04:53] Full-time at that point it took approximately two years. The more interesting thing about my background though, is of course I [00:05:00] was also very passionate about and interested in racing a crazy sport called triathlon. So nights and weekends for me were spent swimming, biking, and running and racing triathlon.

[00:05:10] So very early in my career, post grad. I knew I wanted to be in leadership and knew I had an entrepreneurial spirit. Just wasn't sure how I was gonna see it through. So I was lucky enough that I was creating all these protocols for myself, for my own racing in the sport of triathlon. Started to help out friends and family eventually said, Hey, why don't you give me 50 bucks a month?

[00:05:30] 50 bucks a month, became a hundred bucks a month. And before I knew it, it's now what you call a side hustle. And at the time, I didn't have a family or kids was just figuring out how to buy a house and really start a family. So it was great. Money on the side for a few years. And at some point in there I said, you know what?

[00:05:46] I think I just want to do this full time. And really give it a shot. It's a chance for me to be an entrepreneur and lead a business, lead people create a vision. So I did that, which was kind of a risk at the time. And we grew very rapidly. We became one of the [00:06:00] largest in the world by 2008 2009 timeframe, about five, six years into the business. We had 85 staff all over the country working a hundred percent remote. This was 20 years before COVID. Learning how to create a vision and gravity towards what we were trying to achieve and aspire to do was what it was all about and see through the staff's lens and ensure they saw value in what we were providing them and how we were supporting them.

[00:06:23] So I also learned that very early on, which then comes full circle. To where we are at Verdantas today. It was an amazing experience. Not only the business, but I coached professional athletes, professional Ironman athletes for about 10 years. Had over 30 Ironman champions, really unbelievable athletes from all over the planet, from different cultures.

[00:06:42] And you learn a lot about how to support people holistically, emotionally and from different backgrounds and cultures under high pressure. That was kind of up until that point. So let me pause before I.

[00:06:53] Guy: Yeah, let me ask a couple questions about that. 'cause I think this is fascinating about you. That's a pretty committed group of folks that are running triathlons [00:07:00] just by self-selection, right?

[00:07:01] Jesse: Oh yes. Yeah, for sure. I'm one of 'em. So I can speak on behalf of the group.

[00:07:07] Guy: So where is the business now? I.

[00:07:09] Jesse: So we actually just sold the business about a year ago. Finally I came back to the engineering space in 2018 mostly 'cause I needed a break, to be honest. Coaching professional athletes in particular is unbelievably, stressful and draining at least the way that I was doing it, which again, was supporting them holistically with everything I had. So I was lucky in that I stayed in contact with the folks that I had started my internship with back at that hydropower group. And eventually that was the power group at WSP. And they said, Hey, we need help with organizational health, getting groups to work together and build trust and not be siloed. Can you help us out? And I said, sure, I think I can help with that after my coaching experience running remote business on and so forth. And after about six months of doing that, they said, Hey, why don't you take over the National Power Team, which was a great opportunity. For [00:08:00] me at that time in my life.

[00:08:01] And my wife said, Hey, why don't you, I give her full credit on this one. She said, why don't you do it? It's a great opportunity and what's the worst case? If you don't like it, you can just come back. I said, that's a great point. She and my prior COO took over the coaching business back in 2018 and I came back to this world full-time.

[00:08:19] Guy: So how did you feel your technical skills managed the hiatus? Did you forget a lot of stuff or quickly relearn it? How did that go?

[00:08:25] Jesse: Yeah. From a pure technical perspective or, I guess what's the, what are you getting at Guy?

[00:08:30] Guy: Well, I assume that you're not really crunching numbers today in your current role. I don't know if you were crunching numbers when you first came back or not, but it's still a different space, right? So the judgment and the perspective that you had in your early career, how did that translate after it sounds like you were out of the business for almost 10 years.

[00:08:47] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Honestly at the end of the day, so much of it's about working with human beings. And if anything, I felt like I learned so much from not only coaching the pros, but being an entrepreneur and starting [00:09:00] and growing a business. Most of it when I came back was about just trusting myself.

[00:09:05] Right, because you come back to the space that's very professional and much different than being on race courses and in the trenches working with professional athletes. So you think you have to be something that you have in your head or that you maybe grew up around in the engineering space. So it took me a while. To kind of shake the default of just trying to be what I thought I needed to be and say, Hey, rely on what worked for you and just try it. What's the worst case? It doesn't work. Right. So that, that was the biggest orientation I had. I think the technical aspect, I did a bit of residential engineering, just part-time kind of for.

[00:09:39] Fun on the side while I was coaching. So I definitely kept the analytical side and honestly, the coaching that I was doing was so analytical around sport mechanics or sport physiology. So much of it was in spreadsheets and numbers beyond the emotional sides that I feel like I stayed sharp, at least from an analytical perspective.

[00:09:58] Guy: Were there any key figures in your [00:10:00] life at that time that helped you chart that path and give you the confidence that you needed to take these chances? You mentioned your wife so I'm sure she had part of a role in that. But just think about, influential people in your life up to this point.

[00:10:12] Jesse: Yeah, I mean you have so many different types of mentors, which I think a lot of folks don't realize, right? You have the traditional mentor, which would typically be the more senior person, sometimes your supervisor or technical mentor you have family related mentors. That's my wife at, as you called it. Sometimes you have reverse mentors, and if I had to pick the biggest influence on me over the last 10 years, it was probably the athletes that I worked with, right? Absolutely. World-class athletes that are so dedicated to their craft, who better learn from than them, right? I'm their coach but at the end of the day, we're really working together to try to create greatness and I would say they probably drove me more than anything, honestly.

[00:10:54] Guy: These athletes were the reverse mentors that you'd mentioned earlier.

[00:10:58] Jesse: Yeah, I would consider them a reverse [00:11:00] mentor. Many times you have advocates as well, which is another type of mentor. And if you look at my transition from coaching back to the professional world in engineering, it was really people that were running the power business at that time within WSP that believed that was the right person, even though.

[00:11:18] I didn't have experience at all at that level of leadership. I left as a senior kind of project manager or project manager, and came back leading a national p and l for WSP. The only reason why I was able to do that was I had a great advocate inside the business that said, Hey, Jesse's the guy.

[00:11:34] He can do this. So again, another type of mentor. When you think about mentors,

[00:11:38] Guy: So what do you think they saw in you just when they gave you that role?

[00:11:42] It's hard about yourself, but.

[00:11:45] Jesse: Yeah, I don't know. Like you said, it's hard to talk about yourself and sometimes you don't see in yourself with others see in you. But I think as you get older and you have more and more experience, you get better at reflecting on maybe what others do see in you. Even if you don't see it or [00:12:00] believe it, you start to trust that it's there. Just 'cause you've seen other people trust it so many times on. I know, I think, certainly passion, energy. And authenticity, I would say would probably be the key things that perhaps they saw in me, which are more difficult to learn than some other technical skills and things like that.

[00:12:19] I know for me now, when I look at finding great talent to add to our organization, those are the characteristics you look for because, you know, they're almost impossible, if not very difficult to teach or learn. 

[00:12:30] Guy: That's fascinating. So tell us more about your current role, how did you make that leap, and then what are you doing these days at Verdantas as CEO.

[00:12:38] Jesse: Yeah. Definitely spent a few years there with WSP when I first came back. Had the opportunity to join this little company called Verdantas. It said right in our logo, at that time, people focused future as the COO at that time was 415 people. I thought this could be an amazing blend between what I've learned so far in my life, whether it was [00:13:00] through coaching, working for a large public company like WSP, and then running a coaching business that was very small and entrepreneurial. That 400 staff size just felt really good that, hey, that's maybe even closer to what I'm used to. And growing a business, more entrepreneurial, like the coaching business at a place where perhaps I could have a huge outsized impact, hopefully in a positive way. And do it in a differentiated way, which was very rarely seen in the greater AE space.

[00:13:29] Do it with authenticity. Do it in the way that I coached the professional athletes, grow the business in a way that's all about creating value and showing value for the staff, right? And creating gravity to that vision and brand. So when that opportunity came, even in the COO role, I was really excited about it. Joined a COO. After about a year, I was lucky enough to succeed our prior CEO Jerry Solantai and take the CEO role. And we've just been having a blast ever since then. So much of it is about trying to be differentiated and creating an [00:14:00] inspirational. Place to work that's really vibrant and fresh and different.

[00:14:04] So that's at its crux and that's been part of our DNA since day one. And I don't take credit for all that for sure. It was here already. I just came and really tried to magnify it and accelerate it into our future.

[00:14:16] Guy: And you've been successful in that Verdantas is significantly bigger than four hundred and fifteen people today, correct?.

[00:14:21] Jesse: Yeah, we're just about 1900 people as of today. And that's been, over only two and a half years. So it's been rapid growth. Part of what makes it fun and vibrant when you grow that rapidly, if you do it an empathetic way really found that on building trust first you create a space where people see differentiation, and excitement about what we're doing and growing into and also provides them tremendous opportunity for new roles and career growth. And that's a lot of the DNA right of who Verdantas is outside of markets and practices and the technical stuff.

[00:14:53] Guy: Verdantas is private equity backed, can you maybe demystify private equity for some of our listeners?[00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Jesse: Yeah, I will do my best. And don't let me fool anybody, anything I'm about to say. I only learned over the last two and a half years. I will note though I think I've been privy or part

[00:15:09] of every ownership model, meaning I started with an ESOP that was Parsons Brinkerhof. I obviously started my own company and was a sole proprietor and entrepreneur in the coaching business. I came back to a large public company with WSP and then finally private equity. To be honest, one of the hesitations I had around joining Verdantas when I was looking at that opportunity. Was private equity because I knew my approach being a coach, being very people focused, empathetic, transparent, authentic, right? Those were qualities that were not synonymous in my mind, right? With private equity. So it took me some time to really learn and understand it and demystify it in my own head because what most of us know is probably from the movies, right? Which is certainly not in alignment with people focused and all the other mentioned.

[00:15:57] What I learned. Then, and obviously why [00:16:00] I joined and what I've really continued to learn since then is alignment between the management team, the CEO and the private equity team is absolutely critical. If you have that alignment is the best and most fun ownership model, in my opinion that you can get involved in meaning. If your belief in the way you create a more valuable company over time is investing in the culture, investing in the people, creating something differentiated with unbelievably low voluntary attrition, right? All the things that we believe as a team here at Verdantas, as long as your private equity team agrees that's the best way to create value over the time you're with them. It's gold, right? Because then you're in alignment. You both agree on investments and you create a differentiated place to work in our case. If you don't have that alignment, then obviously the private equity team will be there to lane correct you. I'm saying it quite softly, right into the direction that they feel is most critical to create enterprise value over the period you're with them.

[00:16:55] So those are the stories that you hear that aren't that great about private equity [00:17:00] ownership. For those of you that may consider it either as an executive or senior leader or may own a company that you're thinking about taking private equity investment from that would be my biggest suggestion.

[00:17:10] Just make sure there's really strong alignment between yourself, the executive team and the private equity team. If you have that, it's amazing.

[00:17:18] Guy: That's great stuff Jesse. And this is probably a good segue into the next phase of our interview, which is real more broadly about the geoprofessions. So just since we're on the private equity topic there's been a lot of activity in the geoprofessions with private equity. What do you see as the attraction there?

[00:17:36] Jesse: Well, I think, ESOPs are becoming more and more difficult to sustain into the future. I think the generations that are coming outta school and getting to the age where they would traditionally become owners significant owners in those types of companies, they just have a different thought process around company ownership and what they would wanna invest.

[00:17:53] So I think you're seeing a little bit of a pinch there in many of those types of firms. Obviously we've seen [00:18:00] tremendous proliferation and involvement of private equity more and more in this space over the last five years. And there's a lot of reasons why. A lot of good reasons, 

[00:18:09] Private equity shops are looking at the AE space saying, why the heck weren't we in this sooner?

[00:18:14] It's got all the right characteristics, very stable growth that is very dependable over the last several decades. If you look back over history and with current tailwinds there's continued expected stability and. Reasonably high growth rates for the forthcoming, at least decade. So it is just a beautiful space to be in if you're a private equity partner, right?

[00:18:35] One of the most important things is not only growth and private equity ownership, but it's also dependability of that growth.

[00:18:42] Guy: So in our profession, we've historically had some ups and downs, some corrections. It's a cyclical business like most businesses are. How do you think private equity's gonna see that? We've had pretty good 10, 12 year run of expansion in the economy, which has been great for our profession.

[00:18:59] That probably won't last [00:19:00] forever.

[00:19:01] Jesse: Yeah. I think if you look back at some of the just broad AE space, right? Not necessarily all geo professional, but broad AE space over the last two to three decades, I don't think there's been a single year that had negative growth. So we've had negative growth with GDP, but I don't think the AE space has had negative growth even a single year.

[00:19:20] So yeah, some years are better than others for sure. But in general, the space has expanded very, very reliably. And again, for the foreseeable decade. But I think what's important in general professional services in any recessionary period, let's say there was a year where the entire industry had, or year two or three, had contraction. And overall growth, it's just ensuring that you have dials to mitigate those downturns. And honestly, most professional service firms have things like bonus programs and other g and a expense that they can modulate and, or tailor to downturns and overall revenue or sales.

[00:19:58] So that's somewhat [00:20:00] to private equity as well. If you're private equity backed and you run into one of those downturns, I think you need to expect that you'd be asked to turn some of those dials, to help control and mitigate the downside risk.

[00:20:12] Guy: And to be fair, probably in any, 

[00:20:14] Jesse: That's any that, that's right.

[00:20:15] That's right. If you own your own business, you're probably doing the same thing. Right.

[00:20:19] Guy: So modulate, it's a great word to segue into my next question about changes we're seeing in technology in our profession. What do you see coming what's the most disruptive , what's your view there? I.

[00:20:30] Jesse: Yeah, lemme just start by saying this, it's a really common question around, Hey, what's going on with ai and how disruptive is it gonna be to the space? Right now. But I like to look at it as more of a continuum. Technology has been disrupting our space for almost 30 years now, just steadily, right?

[00:20:46] And it's just an evolution that continues and will continue forward. So I encourage our folks and I would encourage anyone not to look at it like this tsunami or this thing that's gonna come, right? This is a continual process that's already been in play [00:21:00] for a long time. Those though, where we are now that are I think maybe most disruptive. Obviously AI and its impact on our business workbench composition but also digital twins. I think you'll see digital twins in almost everything that we do and ensuring firms are proficient and be able to leverage those, and leverage those in a way that allows the clients to leverage them as well.

[00:21:23] Those are two of the big ones, I think. Then leveraging the digital twins for asset management, right? Those are some of probably the top three I would say.

[00:21:30] Guy: great opportunity. How about data Jesse? Your professional firms have a lot of data and it's proprietary to a large extent, and AI is really about mining that data for, different and expanded uses. Do you see either threat or opportunity there with regard to the huge amounts of data that our firms possess?

[00:21:54] Jesse: Yeah, huge opportunity. First, I'll start with internal data and what we're doing at Verdant [00:22:00] is really de-siloing, otherwise siloed data sources, whether it be an hr, finance operations, external data sources like LinkedIn and several others, project files, so on and so forth, right? There's all these data silos in most organizations that are sometimes on different.

[00:22:17] Software platforms or third party vendor based software, so on and so forth. So what we've done a lot of over the last year and a half is de-silo that feed the data in a live way into a data fabric or data warehouse, as some folks call it, overlay it with a taxonomy that makes some of these digital tools more intelligent and finding what you need for the types of prompts that we may have.

[00:22:40] So I think the key opportunity here is that organizations get way ahead of. Technology in general. It could be ai, it could be dashboards, it could be digital twins, and the list goes on and on Either way, as we all navigate it and figure out if the road's gonna take a right or a left over the next decade. One thing that I think you'd have a difficult time arguing is the need [00:23:00] for clean data. De-siloed all in one place, right? That is hopefully overlaid with a taxonomy such that you can teach whatever tool you're using to leverage the data. So that's where we've really focused a lot of time and attention is on that data fabric, desiloing data, organizing data, getting it in a place, and overlaid with a taxonomy that's very usable.

[00:23:21] Guy: Fascinating and easy to. Understand your point, which is a little bit of a segue into the question of where's our profession going? What do we look like in 10 years as a profession? Will our jobs change? Will, obviously they will, but how? How do you see that going down?

[00:23:35] Jesse: I just don't think we need any less people. Let's say AI does a lot more things for us than it's doing now. For example, it's not that we need less people. We've seen a major. Shift at other points in time, like the transition to AutoCAD and those types of tools away from, desktop type drafting.

[00:23:52] And it's not that we need any less people today, it's, you need different types of people. But again, that's not a switch that happens overnight. I think the human brain has a [00:24:00] diff difficult time. Wrapping its head around long-term change and likes to picture these things that one morning we wake up and it just all changes.

[00:24:08] But it's a slow continuum, just like it was back in the late nineties and like it has been several times since then. So I think overall, a decade from now we have similar workforce, the composition of that workforce starts to change between now and then started. Meaning we have people that are either programmers, data analysts, to really keep our data clean in the way that I described people, to train other human beings on how to leverage data and utilize technologies.

[00:24:36] And I think that's the main thing. But I also see it as a. Really people focused, leader, leading a people focused organization. I also see it as a huge opportunity to free up time for so many of us to spend for more meaningful human time with our staff, right? And support them more holistically, more emotionally keep them motivated, right?

[00:24:56] When I'm able to use even copilot now. To save 30 [00:25:00] minutes in my day, that's another phone call I can make to a staff member who may have a question or an issue or needs support on something. So I see that as a huge opportunity. Also see, knowledge not being the differentiator anymore.

[00:25:11] You look back 30 years ago, knowledge was how firms differentiated themselves. Knowledge is gonna be right there at our fingertips. So what do you have to differentiate yourself as a firm 10 years from now? Maybe not the knowledge as much as now. Sure. Maybe to some degree, but not as much as what it is now as a differentiator.

[00:25:29] Not as much as what it was 20 or 30 years ago. So to me, the culture and the human characteristics will be the absolute differentiator. But also key it's a dovetailed thing here. Also key in bringing human beings to the knowledge because just because the knowledge is there doesn't mean firms utilize it, right?

[00:25:49] The limiter at the end of the day is gonna be how quickly human beings can leverage the knowledge and the technology and type things into their keyboard and find things . The more, as leaders in organizations [00:26:00] that are professional service firms can support our people holistically, differentiate that way, but also use it as a tool to build trust and bring them to the technology such that the speed of transfer between the human brain and the technology is faster and more efficient and trustworthy, that'll be the differentiator, right?

[00:26:17] So that's really what I believe. And again, a lot of what we're focused on here at Verdantas.

[00:26:22] Guy: That's fascinating, Jesse. Really enlightening. Just one more question on the future. We hear a lot about, demographic changes. There's fewer people being born every year. There's fewer folks. Graduating from our universities. How do you think that factors into the future for the geoprofessions.

[00:26:38] Jesse: Yeah. I think for those of us that will still be in the space 10 years from now when some of those pinches occur, it's obviously a good thing, right? 'cause you're more valued you're more in scarcity. So folks that are lucky enough to. Be during that period. Sure. It may be a bit stressful 'cause there's a lot to do with less people, but it's really good for you as a professional, right.

[00:26:58] Versus being [00:27:00] commoditized and having too many of you. But these things, again, this is another one that it's a long-term phase in, phase out, many variables and these things work themselves out. So I just don't get too anxious over these things. And there'll be a role that technology plays here to fill the. There'll be a role in having the different composition of staff. For example, , pick a, an example firm that's, let's say 80% engineers, 20% technology staff and shared service staff. Maybe in the future it's 50 50. That additional 30% in shared services working on the software, working on data continuity.

[00:27:33] So it's just a different composition. We may not need as many either of the engineering, so again it'll work itself out.

[00:27:40] Guy: That's great to hear. And again, I think you were able to summarize this in a way that was understandable and also very enlightening. So it's obvious why you've been successful. Jesse, you're really a sharp dude. Hey, we're gonna switch to the last phase, and this is the speed round.

[00:27:54] So I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions and these are the same questions I ask everybody, and then [00:28:00] we'll tabulate these in some future way to be determined. Just whatever's on your mind. Favorite book.

[00:28:07] Jesse: It's funny, we were chatting before we started the show here. And you mentioned that these episodes have been enlightening in that most of the leaders you've had on demonstrated a pretty we'll say, humble background in childhood, right? Not from Ivy League, this or that, and came from pretty humble beginnings.

[00:28:25] And as you were telling me that I was thinking about it and when you asked me about , my favorite book, I have to go with CEO next door which essentially tells that story that to be CEO , of a major professional services firm, or any firm for that matter you don't have to have the perfect resume.

[00:28:41] You don't have to have the perfect background. In fact, the data shows the opposite that most even Fortune 500 come from, humble beginnings.

[00:28:50] Guy: . Your optimism index from your prior answers. I suspect I know where you're going here, but on a level one to five, one being low, five being highly optimistic where do you sit on the future?[00:29:00] 

[00:29:00] Jesse: Well, I'm always pinned at five. Guy, you gotta

[00:29:04] be in my role. Right? And if I'm not, the chief optimist here who's going to be, so yeah, there's always gonna be headwinds in our markets, in the services we provide, in the labor market, technology, all these things, those headwinds will always be there.

[00:29:19] Being an optimist is the key to figure out how to swim through 'em effectively. So I'm almost always a five. You'd have to catch me on a pretty bad day to be anything other than a five. 

[00:29:26] Guy: That's awesome.

[00:29:27] Jesse: yeah.

[00:29:28] Guy: So what's your biggest impact that you've had in your adult life? You've had multiple careers and how do you want to be remembered? I.

[00:29:35] Jesse: Boy, I think , so far the biggest impact I've had was with the athletes that I coached. It's just such an emotional time for them. It's such a high pressure time. When you see success and, just genuinely improve human beings in life over, whatever opportunity , I have to spend with them, whether it's four years or 10 years that's really impactful.

[00:29:55] So I think that's been the biggest impact that I've had to date, [00:30:00] in the future, what would I want to be remembered for? Yeah, unbelievably authentic. Fair logical guy that, supports people to be the best version of themselves. That's what I would aspire to.

[00:30:12] Guy: I would say that's consistent with me knowing you. So a lot of successful people have a hard time answering this question, so I'm gonna ask you to, be as authentic as you can in answering it. Maybe let your guard down a little bit . Obviously you're happy with where you are, you feel like you've gotten there.

[00:30:26] But if you look back at your life, is there anything you would do differently where you came to a fork in the road and you went left and you should have gone right. Or do you think about that at all and, and could you share any of that with our audience?

[00:30:37] Jesse: Yeah, again, just being such an optimist, sure make mistakes all the time but you do your best to be optimistic about those and make the next step be better, and ultimately end up in a good place. I heard a great framework at one time and it was like, Hey, every time you come to one of those forks you may fail or you may win whatever winning means, [00:31:00] however you frame it for that fork in, in your life's road. But at the end of the day, if you can guarantee that both options or the new option, let's say, as you take the fork will challenge you and introduce you to new, amazing people, as long as it passes through that filter. Whether the outcome is a win or a loss, you win either way. So that's the framework I've used for just so long.

[00:31:23] Because then even if the metric you were looking at, let's say a new job opportunity, if it just didn't work out, they didn't think you were the right fit or you didn't feel you were the right fit. If you were introduced to new people that are really unbelievable human beings, right? If you were challenged and stretched in a new way, those are two things that you'll take away, and those will reconnect later on for better and better outcomes, right?

[00:31:45] So you win no matter what. That's the framework I try to look through. Sure. There's little tidbits like, Hey, should I have went back and gotten an MBA instead of starting a coaching business and things like that that I'll never know the answer to. So, why look back? Right? So no major [00:32:00] regrets so far.

[00:32:00] Guy: That answer could probably serve for this last, final question, which is one piece of advice that you'd have for those entering the profession. I'll ask you to come up with a different piece of advice for this question.

[00:32:10] Jesse: Yeah, simple one. Anyone that knows me knows I'm big on this concept, but if you want to grow, if you wanna move up in your career, if you wanna grow as a human being, you gotta be uncomfortable all the time. And if you find yourself in a position, in a scenario where you're not uncomfortable and you wanna be growing, then you gotta find your way into a new position.

[00:32:28] It's like most things in life, right? No pain, no gain. There's always gotta be an element of being uncomfortable 'cause that's how you grow. 

[00:32:34] Guy: Spoken like a triathlete, which kind of defines that sport. Jesse, this has been a great interview. Fascinating. You're really an intelligent guy, articulate. You can explain complex things easily, and I'm sure that's all led to your success. I'll give you the final word. Is there anything else you want to add for our listeners?

[00:32:52] Jesse: No, super, super excited that you had me on here, guy. It was fun to chat here for a bit. And hey, if anyone wondered about anything that I had to [00:33:00] say here, ever wants to chat feel free to reach out. Find me on LinkedIn, shoot me a note. Always happy to chat.

[00:33:05] Guy: That's awesome. Thanks, Jesse. I, really enjoyed spending time with you and we're gonna call it a wrap.