GeoHeroes - Tom & Grace Blackburn === [00:00:00] Guy: Welcome back listeners. This is a especially incredible episode. I'm really excited about this. Today we have special bonus. Not only do we have Geo Hero Tom Blackburn, but we have Geo Hero, Grace Blackburn here with us. And this is our first time with two guests and I think we're gonna have double the action, double the fun. [00:00:20] Welcome Tom and Grace. Please introduce yourself. [00:00:24] Tom: Thank you guy. I am Tom Blackburn with Blackburn Consulting, and we are in California. [00:00:31] Grace: I'm Grace Blackburn and we're founders of our company, Blackburn Consulting. We're 26 years. [00:00:40] Guy: So you guys are both great, individually, have known you for a long time, and you're great together. You're a great team and anxious to hear you know your story., Why don't you tell us how you met and came together to form Blackburn Consulting, and then we'll dial back to learn your, your growing up story. [00:00:57] Tom: We met when we were working in [00:01:00] Texas. And I was working for another geotechnical firm called Alpha Testing. And Grace was working for [00:01:08] Grace: Arco [00:01:09] Tom: Oil [00:01:10] Grace: and Gas, [00:01:11] Tom: and we met at volunteer work for Special Olympics [00:01:15] Guy: Oh, nice. Is Arco still around Grace, [00:01:18] Grace: it's now bp [00:01:20] British [00:01:21] Guy: Oh, BP? [00:01:22] Grace: But the gas stations in California are still around [00:01:26] and my stock is growing. [00:01:28] Guy: That's great. What did you do for Arco Grace? [00:01:33] Grace: In seven years, I had seven, eight different positions, but I was on a management training program and. Everything from financials to scheduling to doing anything. They liked engineers with business background. That's who they hired. [00:01:54] Guy: Okay. And Tom, how about you? What were you doing in Texas [00:01:58] Tom: It was just my first job outta [00:02:00] college and I was doing first materials engineering and then geotechnical engineering for that firm. [00:02:07] Guy: and what part of Texas was that? [00:02:10] Tom: That was in Dallas Fort Worth and [00:02:13] Guy: Okay [00:02:13] Tom: I started in Dallas and then I moved to Fort Worth and set up an office for those guys in Fort Worth. [00:02:20] Guy: so where'd you grow up, Tom? [00:02:23] Tom: I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri. [00:02:26] Guy: Okay, we'll get to you in a second, grace, but Tom, what was your journey from St. Louis? Missouri to Dallas. So what were you like growing up? [00:02:35] Tom: Yeah, so I. Went to school at University of Missouri at Rolla at the time. Now it's called Missouri University of Science and Technology. And then after graduation with a master's degree, I got a job basically down in Texas. It was a place that I was interested in going and went down there for. Four and a half years. [00:02:58] And while I was down there, [00:03:00] like I said before, grace and I met. So it was a great part of my life. [00:03:06] Guy: And how about you, grace? Where did you grow up? [00:03:08] Grace: I grew up in Stockton, California, and I went to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo. [00:03:16] Guy: so how about you, grace? Where did you grow up? [00:03:18] Grace: I grew up in Stockton, California. I went to school at Cal Poly San Luis Bipo and got my B Bachelor's in industrial engineering. [00:03:29] Guy: Okay. And then how did you wind up in Texas? [00:03:32] Grace: I worked for Arco straight out of college and they hired me well for the engineering management program. And then my position was actually transferred to Dallas, Texas from Los Angeles. And. It was neat because I could afford to buy a house they gave me a 0% loan [00:03:57] on, and so it was really [00:04:00] nice [00:04:02] Guy: So down the clock, back even further. So Tom, growing up in Missouri, is that how you say it, in Missouri, [00:04:11] Tom (2): either way. [00:04:12] Guy: What was your childhood like? Were you a suburban home? Did you live in a city? [00:04:16] Tom: Yeah. [00:04:16] Guy: do with yourself? [00:04:18] Tom: Pretty solid middle class. My father was an iron worker and then he started his own steel erection firm towards the end of his career. So my childhood was like, I really liked the outdoors. I liked hunting and fishing and it was a great. Great childhood. I grew up on 12 acres at home and then my grandparents had 150 acres, about a hundred miles away, and I spent all the time I could there and just had a wonderful childhood. [00:04:53] Guy: How about you, grace? What was Stockton like? [00:04:56] Grace: My dad died when I was a little girl. I was eight. [00:05:00] And so my mom raised us and she was from Japan and. So I was busy, but my, I loved riding my bike and playing basketball. I played on a team since I was in second grade and I just spent a lot of time with my family and friends. [00:05:21] Guy: So I guess we can keep going back and forth or you could jump in independently. How did you get inclined to think about getting into the geo profession? [00:05:31] Tom: For me. My father basically told me I was gonna be a civil engineer, [00:05:38] and that's what he, they wanted, there was, nobody in the family that had gone to college except for my sister and me. She's a couple years older than me, and so I went as a civil engineer and then around a junior when I was in college, I. Started taking soil engineering classes and I really, I [00:06:00] found a professor, his name is Norbert Schmidt, that he's passed now, but he was really a mentor to me and, I looked up to him and learned a lot from him in college, and so just decided it. It was so interesting, fascinating to me to not be able to see underground, but have to decide what to do with what's happening underground, just based on research and things you can see above ground. [00:06:27] It's very similar to fishing. I thought. I love fishing and it's the same kind of thing. You have to read the structure. What's around and maybe do some research to have success. So I've, I loved it. Then I was passionate about it, and I still do. [00:06:44] Guy: Did you? A good student at that time, Tom. [00:06:47] Tom: I was an average, a little above average student as a undergraduate, but I became a, I excelled as a graduate student. [00:06:57] Guy: And how about you, grace? So industrial engineering, what? What were you [00:07:00] thinking at that point? [00:07:01] Grace: My. High school counselor really wanted me to become an engineer and he actually helped me find the type I wanted to be. I chose industrial engineering because you're trying to become the best in, make all the improvements to using your money, your people, and your equipment and your facility. [00:07:22] So that's what intrigued me. And you could go and work in any field and, so when I met Tom and he was working geotechnical, I had, I found a little box that I had, it was filled with so many rocks in it. I didn't know what they were, but they were beautiful to me. And there was that love of rocks and land early on? [00:07:47] Guy: Did Tom help you identify those rocks? Grace? [00:07:49] Grace: No, I actually took a geology class and I figured them out myself. Okay. [00:07:55] Guy: So I can probably answer or guess at this, but what attracted you to the the [00:08:00] business training part of Arco? [00:08:04] Grace: One, they really wanted me because I actually won a scholarship from them when I was in college. And I liked that it was pro employee, pro engineering and they really wanted to help me grow. As a person and learn about everything about oil, so it was a good program. [00:08:27] Guy: So you said that you want a scholarship. I'm gonna guess that means you were a good student. Were you a good student? All through grade school and high school as well as college? [00:08:36] Grace: Yes. My mom used to tell us when we were growing up remember you're of the samurai. Don't bring shame on your family. That meant we had to work hard and our choices were go to summer school. Or do housework. And she said, and I will make you clean every inch of this house. So we all went to summer school. [00:08:59] Guy: So she [00:09:00] incent, incented you pretty well then. Okay. So, then you both meet at the Special Olympics in Dallas. So tell us about how that came to be. [00:09:11] Tom: Our stories are not completely the same, but but generally we're close enough. For everyone, for the audience. We were, I knew the director of the Special Olympics a little bit. I had worked for a little bit before and I was actually looking for someone my life. 'cause I was 27 years old. [00:09:32] And I thought that was a good place to, to meet someone that had, that was, quality. I was going to those events and then, and I, like I said, I became friends with the director a little bit and so they, she said, well, we have this set up, it's a tug of war event across the river. There's a, two colleges at Texas and OU maybe that were. Participating in, in this tug of war. And as part of it, they had booths there. [00:10:00] And in those booths was people doing different things serving beer and games and things like that. And so I just got there a little bit late, so there were really wasn't a job for me. [00:10:11] So I started walking around and I saw Grace and her friend in a booth serving beer. And so I just walked up and I thought, oh, that, that's a pretty young lady. I'll talk to her and see what that this is about. So I started to talk to her and I felt like we'd hit it off pretty good. And then [00:10:30] Grace: let me cut in here. [00:10:31] Oh, go ahead. [00:10:32] Guy: Yeah, I wanna hear Grace's side of this story. [00:10:34] Grace: I had been dating people as well, and a lot of them were losers. And my eyes and so I would, I pretty much had my talk with God and said, I'm done. Do not send any more guys around. I'm done with guys. So when we went there. I when he came up, I just started trying to introduce him to my friend who was looking. I just thought I didn't [00:11:00] need a man in my life just to, marry somebody. So I just said I was past that, so I was trying to. Talk to him about her and get her involved. And it turns out anyways, we end up going to after the event listening to some music and when we walk into the place Tom. See, we see three chairs, and they thought, oh, that's perfect. Right in the middle. And so we go and Tom holds a chair for me in the middle and says, grace here, you sit here. And then he, I sit down, he sits down next to me, and my friend goes, oh, I guess I'll sit down too. So [00:11:41] Tom: I was oblivious. I didn't know I did that. [00:11:43] I was rude. [00:11:45] Guy: But it all worked out, I guess. [00:11:46] Grace: Yeah, it did. He asked and he, it's good. He's persistent, so it's one of his qualities. So [00:11:55] Guy: So do you still have a relationship with Special Olympics? I. [00:11:59] Grace: we [00:12:00] donate. [00:12:00] Tom: Yeah. Not a real significant one like we used to. [00:12:03] Grace: I tried to get in with them here and they said, well, we really aren't set up here yet in our area. [00:12:10] Guy: That was a good start. So fast forward from, okay, the blackburns meet in Texas and now you are together in your own firm in California. So tell us about that journey. [00:12:25] Tom: Yeah, so we were here for a while and I was working for another firm, another geotechnical firm called Anderson Geotechnical, and they were a GBA firm. And so I. Became president of that over the years and managed different areas of that business and then became part owner. And I was there almost exactly 10 years, and then they fired me and that was a big wake up call. [00:12:53] My father told me that could happen. There was some I don't know, just. Not [00:13:00] smooth relations between myself and the owner's son. And I didn't like that and I didn't like some other things about the way they were running the company. And actually, we had a peer review and they pointed it out and that it was a rub and it would be hard to grow. So I was the one that. They got termed and it sort of surprised me but it was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. So, I just started looking around and thinking, and I still remember the day I was thinking about going to back for PhD back to UMR, university of Missouri Rolla, or running a, an office for a firm back in Missouri. [00:13:42] But then, I also thinking about staying in California, and I remember there was problems with those other options. And I remember the day real clearly when Grace walked in and said, you know, you're just messing around with these things and you've [00:14:00] made up your mind. Let's just announce that we're gonna stay here and start a, start an operation. And that was in October, 1998. And so we did, we just said, okay, we're gonna. Do this. [00:14:15] Guy: So what was your perspective on that? [00:14:17] Grace: I've always wanted to have my own firm, be a part of a company. I started out with a big firm with Arco, but we were treated special. Our department and I, during college, a professor kept saying, you'd be great. Having your own company, why don't you start a consulting firm? And we had, I had friends that wanted to, and then Tom wanted to as well. His dad had his own firm. And so we thought, you know, well maybe one day we would, we had thought about it with I was going to run a drilling company and. We decided that wasn't the best timing for us, so we didn't do it. [00:14:58] And then when this came [00:15:00] up, it just made perfect sense. 'cause I was taking, I was working on my MBA and I had taken legal, marketing, finance accounting. So we were pretty prepared, I think, to be able to do it. And [00:15:15] Tom: and at this time we had three kids. So they were real small and it definitely made it a challenge for Grace and me, but more grace than me probably to manage the household as well as a lot of that stuff I couldn't do, I couldn't do the administrative functions and the finance part, and she just dove in and learned it and, we couldn't have done it without that. [00:15:41] Grace: We hired. [00:15:42] Guy: two, the two of you when you started then just the two. [00:15:45] Tom: Yeah, [00:15:49] Guy: So what was the big break of lap burn consulting? How did you go from two person firm to where you are now? [00:15:59] Tom: I would [00:16:00] describe it like, I think the, one of the neatest things about our firm is when we started, we said if there's, if we just stay two people the whole time, we're okay with that. We were just really interested in doing good work for good people and willing to turn work down whenever it came to that. [00:16:21] So we didn't mind. Just being selective. And then we also didn't wanna hurt the other firm where I came from. So we decided to just focus on public works and not do private development or work for developers. And so we did, we turned down a lot of work that way and stayed focused and really have expanded that way by. By that just laser focus on good work. And again, turning down work that didn't make sense and continuing to hone our skills to, to be our goal's always been to be the best that we [00:17:00] can be at what we're doing. [00:17:02] Grace: We also did. Commu, we wanted to be part of the community. So when a school bond issue came up, we worked on that and resulting with school contracts. [00:17:15] So just being part of the community was a big goal. A part of our life and our company, we wanted to give back as well. [00:17:25] Guy: So you did well by doing good. That's a great story. [00:17:28] Tom (2): Yep. [00:17:29] Guy: Both of you have been very active in GBA Tom's a former president grace, you've been very active in a number of committees. How did you first connect to GBA? [00:17:39] Tom: So that was back, hand giving the credit to Gary Anderson when I was working there, I was kind of stepping up in leadership roles and management roles at the company and he recognized that and said we really are concerned about loss prevention here and learning the best practices for business. [00:17:59] So [00:18:00] want you to check this out. So we, we started going and what was really fun about that, I mean, a lot of it was great. There was so many good people at A-S-F-E-G-B-A but it was doubly fun because we took our kids and Grace would just treat it as a vacation. Basically, or even as they got older, take 'em outta grade school anyway and just take 'em with us. [00:18:24] And as you know, GBA, ASFE at the time goes to some of the neatest places. And so it was really a rich part of our life was through A SFE and then GBA, [00:18:38] Grace: and we were the only ones that brought our kids. And, The John and Ann and Heidi and all the. Admin that helped. They would allow our kids, we sign them up and they would have name tags and they would draw all over 'em and color 'em and do things. [00:18:57] And everyone [00:19:00] was, gracious. So I started as a spouse and when the, I would look at the sessions and when our, there was something of interest, which there was almost every time I would take the kids in because they would have to listen to it. And we, our kids grew up in GBA/ASFE and it was a big part of our family. [00:19:22] So when I don't see people bring their kids or their family, I'm thinking, boy, you're really missing out. There's so much to learn and see and do and the kids really like it. [00:19:32] Tom: Yeah, I would just ta it on that. I would walk up sometimes guy to Donald who was our oldest son, and he'd be talking to like three or four adults, GBA men typically, or possibly spouses or possibly women professionals. [00:19:51] But as you know, mostly men are in the association and. and. he would be a little guy [00:20:00] and looking up at them, having a, basically an adult conversation about different things. So I can't say enough for how much that contributed to all three of the kids, but especially Donald, wouldn't you say? [00:20:15] Grace: Yes. [00:20:15] 'cause Donald went the longest yeah. [00:20:17] Guy: Apple didn't fall far from the tree 'cause Donald's been very active as well in GBA [00:20:22] Tom (2): Yeah. [00:20:24] Guy: and now he's dealing with his own children. [00:20:26] Tom (2): Yep. Yep. [00:20:29] Guy: Well that's great. That's a great story of Blackburn. Is there anything else that you wanna share on that before we move into our next segment of the interview? [00:20:38] Tom: No, I think that's the bulk of it. It's been a good, I can't think of anything. Any other way that I would have it or rewrite it. It was one, it is been wonderful and the GBA connection has been just so really special. And here comes another train. [00:20:59] Guy: Well, that's a [00:21:00] great story of the work life balance, right? I don't know if it's balance, but work life together. [00:21:05] Tom (2): Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:06] Guy: And so let's let's change the chapter here and talk more about geo professionals in general, the big picture. What have you seen over your careers in terms of change in the profession through the years? [00:21:21] Tom: Wow. So I think, where are we there? Okay. So that's your part. I feel like Guy, the changes in the profession, especially more recently has been the. Addition of the private equity has come in the larger firms have come in and started competing with us. I think when we started again, back to the old A SFE days, there was a lot of medium sized firms, is the way Grace put it. And that was. Just, it just made it, it just has made it a little bit different. The focus has, there are [00:22:00] still great people medium s size and even large firms that are focused on high quality work and perhaps more the people first versus just the business and the profits. But that has changed over the years, I would say. [00:22:14] Wouldn't you? [00:22:15] Grace (2): Yes, because. [00:22:17] Guy: What's interesting 20 years ago, the big topic was ownership, succession ownership and management succession. And I don't remember everybody talking about private equity at that time, but it did sort of come in and solve that problem, but introduced other change. [00:22:31] Tom: Sure. Yeah. And it's definitely not all bad. Like you're saying, some people need a way, they need an exit strategy and they need it towards the end of their career. So I understand it. I'm just saying, just to answer the question, that has changed things in our business, I would say. [00:22:49] Guy: You have anything to add on that? Grace? [00:22:51] Grace: No, [00:22:52] I was working. You can take that part off. That was my part. [00:22:59] Tom: What were you [00:23:00] wanting? I guess also there is something else that yeah, I didn't mean to take your, you took my, but technically I would say the tools have advanced for exploration and analysis. That is. That has definitely improved over the years and been helpful when used correctly. That's been very helpful. [00:23:27] Guy: When you look at the totality of your careers, and grace, feel free to jump in here if you want or defer to Tom. What stayed the same, you know, so there's a lot of change. It's easy to point to change, but what are the sort of the bedrock stability things that have stayed? [00:23:42] Grace: Within our firm or our career profession. [00:23:48] Tom: I would start by just saying I think the people are the same. People are people relationally. They need to be treated with dignity and respect. [00:24:00] And that none of that's changed, even though we've got fast computers and AI and we're moving in all those types of directions now. Like when we started we had decks of cards that we had to feed into the computer, and so obviously all that has changed dramatically. The power of the computer. And the internet. But again, the, I think this will be, will stay from now on, is you still have to have the people skills in order to manage projects and manage the business. And I don't think that's. It's gonna go away. [00:24:44] Grace: And I still think we need people to think out of the box and to go the extra step. Computers can do some of that, but it's really the people that are the, on the creative side and computers work on [00:25:00] data that's already been there. [00:25:02] Reports or things that have been written or things that have been said, but they're not thinking out. We're out of the box and I think that out of the computer and that's where people will always be needed. [00:25:17] Tom: I also think, just to tack on that, there's still the basics of soil mechanics that are, that you have to understand and I think most of the folks we're hiring do, but they rely a lot on computers to do things. [00:25:33] And I think especially coming outta school that you, that. They need to understand what the computer is telling them, whether it's right or wrong. And the other big thing that we've lost kind of is writing skills. I think they're coming outta college with very minimal writing skills and we have to work on that hard. [00:25:56] Guy: So do you see any other business disruptions for the [00:26:00] geoprofessions? [00:26:01] Tom: Yeah. I think I've been met with a good friend yesterday to talk about it. This but the whole AI and machine learning, I think is a major disruption. And the way we looked at it and discussed it was, it appears like in the industrial revolution we had things taking over for people as far as manufacturing goes. And now I think what's ha gonna ha we're gonna see is machines taking over for people in the white collar space where, there will be recognition by the machine on what's going on as far as soils go. Soil properties and the ability to use that information and ultimately come up with what we come up with what our typical like foundation recommendations are that will [00:27:00] be able to be done by machine. [00:27:02] So we will have access to a wider variety of options and recommendations than we've ever had. And that'll be a struggle for people. The people are gonna have to have a, probably a wider understanding of what's available in order to do the work. I think that will be. The people that survive this will be on top on, in front of that, and that will be a major disruption, I think more looking down the road. [00:27:35] But I think it's gonna, it's going to happen. [00:27:39] Guy: So maybe characterize that differently. Is that an opportunity for someone listening here as to how to position for future success? [00:27:48] Tom: I think it's an opportunity and a threat. I think if you don't do these things, I think even big firms are, will. Lose market share or go out of business because I think it's going to come [00:28:00] and be a major issue. Disruptive technology. [00:28:06] Guy: Anything to add there? [00:28:07] Grace: Nope. That covered it. [00:28:10] Guy: How about [00:28:10] Grace: people [00:28:11] skills? [00:28:11] And people thinking not just relying on the computers. That's the main part. [00:28:18] Guy: It is hard to look too far ahead and be accurate, but if I challenge you to think ahead for our profession, what does it look like 10 years from now? [00:28:29] Tom: Oh, back to what I was saying before, I think those that embrace this technology, and I don't know that you need to hire programmers. In fact, nobody's hiring programmers anymore. What's fascinating is the machine gets smarter as you feed in more data. So I think in 10 years we will see our firms having machines write the bulk of the report, and I [00:29:00] think they'll be looking at the data. I think data management is huge too. I think as our firm anyway gets larger. And even with the large firms, I'm sure they're faced with this now. Managing data is a big issue. It's very difficult. Gone are the days where I could spread things out on my desk, review them all, and get an idea in my head what that's, how to condense that information and use it, evaluate it, and use it. Managing that data properly. That's where the race is. That's where this is all going. And again, for especially for large projects, that's gonna be very important in the future. It will be a differentiator [00:29:49] Grace: and with open ground in all the sharing of data. Data, trying to com. You have access to not just your firms, but other firms data [00:30:00] is going to be out there. [00:30:03] Tom: So I think in 10 years we, the firms need to be, again, embracing this on top of it. They need to understand it and, and use it, or else they're gonna be left behind. [00:30:18] Guy: So you're both very modest. [00:30:20] The title of this podcast is GeoHeroes and GeoHeroes are Ordinary People Doing Extraordinary things. [00:30:28] So tell us what a GeoHero looks like to you. [00:30:34] Tom: Yeah, I don't know if it's. The extraordinary things. As much as I think it's hard work and perseverance, and I think I'm not extraordinarily gifted. But I just work hard at it and I want to make the profession better. I feel strongly about that. I that's why one of the main reasons why I wanted to, [00:31:00] to. Go to GBA and become very involved in GBA. 'cause I think that's a great place to impact the profession positively. And so I, as far as being a hero goes, I don't really see myself as a hero. Do wanna be a role model. And I want. People to understand that there's no lid on you, there's no ceiling. It's up to you. It's not up to me, it's not up to guy. It's not up to any of your managers or your bosses as far as how far you go. It's up to you and you get to decide that, which is what's really exciting about living in America. That's my thought as far as if I was to be considered a hero, it would be simply because I've impacted a few lives and made them better. [00:31:57] Guy: Grace, anything to add? [00:31:59] Grace: I [00:32:00] would just say. For me, it's not so much about getting the kudos, though. It's been neat and I'm grateful, appreciative that GBA recognizes me. But , my main goal is just to make things better and to help people. And I think that's, you know how it came to be, where I'm speaking here, which it's funny. [00:32:26] Tom: There's one more thing guy to tack on here. There was a time, a while ago, I can't remember. I think John Bachner was the executive director at that time, but when GBA changed, its I guess A SFE at the time changed its motto to the best people on earth and. It was, you probably remember that it was not real well received, but it tells you something about the people and the quality of the people that are at [00:33:00] GBA that they would even consider something like that. And I would agree. I think they are, at least in my small part of the world, some of the best people on the earth, they've been. Just wonderful people and wonderful friends to have for a lifetime. [00:33:16] Grace: When we first started our firm Tom was laid off from Anderson and there was a GBA/ASFE conference in Lake Tahoe, which is nearby our home. And word got out pretty quick and people started calling. And it was amazing. It wasn't just the members, but also spouses because back then I was a spouse and the support that we got was amazing. It was truly from their hearts. [00:33:51] Guy: A humble, humble couple. And it's a humble profession. So it doesn't surprise me that you're struggling to acknowledge you know, your role here, but thank you for that. [00:34:00] Go ahead, Tom. I didn't mean to interrupt you. You were [00:34:02] Tom: Oh, no problem. They just, they offered like financial assistance and assistance with the administrative and payroll and all of those things on how to [00:34:13] Grace: help us and they they encouraged us to start our own firm. They were the ones who were probably the biggest, supporters. [00:34:24] Tom: Yeah, it was really a neat time. [00:34:26] Guy: Greatest people on earth. [00:34:27] Grace: Yep. [00:34:28] Guy: Okay. Well, that kind of wraps up this section of the interview related to the big picture on geo professionals. And I wanna move to the speed round. And since you are doing us the honor of the first couple to be simultaneously interviewed, I'll allow you to determine if you want to answer these in sequence or go back and forth or however you wanna do it. [00:34:48] So this is the speed round. We ask everybody the same questions and somewhere down the road. I'm hoping Ryan and I can figure out a way to compile these in a way and share it with our GBA members. GBA folks read the [00:35:00] best books. I am addicted to getting reading recommendations from other GBA members, and I would ask you each what's your favorite book? [00:35:10] Tom: Wow. It's probably for both of us. The, it's the Bible, but beyond that, on the other things we had one time GBA had Stephen Covey speak to us. I don't know if you were there, guy, but that was awesome. So I read his book and I got a ton of stuff out of that. I love that book. What would you say? [00:35:32] Grace: My favorite book right now is the Bible. [00:35:34] So Tom took that from me. But, we've read so many, we're big readers and we read all kinds of books, fiction and nonfiction, historical and business. For me, the Bible is currently wasn't always, it's a tough read. I mean, all, it's hard to read, but it teaches you about life. It teaches you how to run a business, how to treat [00:36:00] your fellow mankind, and it's a good source. [00:36:05] Guy: Hard to argue with the Bible. So as you look at the profession today what's your optimism index? One being low, five being high, [00:36:16] Tom: I think we both agree, [00:36:17] Grace: right? We're we're five, we're optimists. We're always looking for [00:36:21] the good and the best. [00:36:24] Guy: Okay. That's great. When you look back on your careers, and you've done a lot and you've been in a lot of different places what do you think's your biggest impact that you've made in your professional life? You know, maybe your proudest project or what you've done that we, you felt like you had the most influence. [00:36:40] Tom: I think for me the, you know, I can answer those independently as well. I, but really the highlight has been this firm just the positive impact on the employees and the community that we've had, the growth and seeing other people grow and the firm has been [00:37:00] enormously exciting. Kind of capped off with having our son join us in the firm has been just a, an amazing. Experience to have that As far as projects go, I think over the last few years probably there was one that was a large debris flow project down in Montecito, California that. It was, a tragedy on catastrophe, really a lot of fatalities, but I was able to study that for a few years and on behalf of Caltrans or the Department of Transportation here, and then help them with their defense. And on that project, and it just went very well. The result came out better than anyone expected, and it was a, it was just turned out to be a neat project, a good learning experience and it worked out really well. [00:37:54] Guy: Sounds significant. How about you, grace? [00:37:58] Grace: I would say our firm as well [00:38:00] that I'm proud of our firm, I'm proud of our employees early on, and had problems with issues with a employee who wasn't really performing to his potential. And I was really discouraged and wondered if what kind of impact we really were making. And his manager came up and said, well, grace. You're looking at it wrong. You need to look at how much you've impact. He goes, just think, are all your employees, all the people you contact, the committees that you work on, are they better off for you having this firm and you being in their lives, or are they worse off? And I thought. Oh I would say better off 'cause we have had a big positive impact and still continue to do on people's lives. [00:38:57] And so [00:39:00] that's the biggest and then. Proudest project, I would say our first Caltrans contract, we primed, we didn't know we had to start from scratch and administratively I created all the spreadsheets, all the documents, invoicing, figured out all the methods, got us through an audit, and that was probably, and it was our biggest, it was a $6 million contract and we did it as a small firm. [00:39:31] Guy: Pretty cool. [00:39:33] Grace: Yeah. [00:39:34] Guy: So you've had a lot of success and I think our GeoHeroes have a hard time answering this question because first off they're humble and and modest and frankly content. But if you had to do it all over again, is there anything in your career that you would've changed? [00:39:52] Tom: No, I mean there were so many hardships and challenges. So I couldn't pick anything out that [00:40:00] I would go, oh, I would step back in time and avoid this, but I think you need that. We don't learn from the easy things. We learn from the hard things. And so if it wasn't that challenge, I think it would be a different one. So I don't have anything that I would change. [00:40:19] Grace: I can't think of anything I. [00:40:22] Guy: Okay. So a final question for those folks that would be new in their careers entering our profession what advice. What you have for them if you had a single piece of advice. [00:40:35] Tom: I would just say back to what I was saying before, it's nothing in life is easy. There are a lot of hardships and it's, that's just the way it is. I don't know anyone that would say otherwise. So you just have to persevere. When, even when people don't believe in you and do your best and then you need to treat people with dignity and respect so that they [00:41:00] have the opportunity to excel and grow, and that's one of the greatest thrills. In life, I think is actually seeing somebody that you care about say, wow, you know, I did it. I'm doing it. This is awesome. I love that part. [00:41:17] Guy: How about you, grace? [00:41:19] Grace: I think. Building your soft people skills is very important. Being able to interact today, you know, a lot of people are in their phones. You see people on sitting in a room and they're all on their phones. So I think being able to go up to people and talk to them and build a relationship is important to know. And then. Thinking out of the box. I cannot I think that's really important and it's helped us throughout our career to always think that there's a better way and there might be a new solution will help. [00:41:53] Guy: That's great advice. that's gonna more or less conclude the interview. But I will offer up this time. Is there [00:42:00] anything else you wanted to add? [00:42:07] Tom: Anything? [00:42:07] Grace (2): No, [00:42:08] Tom: I can't think of anything. Been pretty thorough. You got our got our heartstrings there. I think those are, it's neat. I mean, I appreciate you doing it and like you said, most. Are probably pretty humble about it. So there's maybe in the way of some of this, but that's how we feel. So it's good for people to see. I think that's a good quality to have, [00:42:34] Grace: and teamwork teamwork's important because we wouldn't be here today without. The employees, the clients, people that you know on committees and in organizations that we're involved in. I don't think we would be here today where we are without working with others in the relationships we built. [00:42:58] Guy: I can certainly echo [00:43:00] that. You guys are both special to me and I'm especially appreciative that you took the time to get together and agree to do this interview today. So thank you very much. [00:43:08] Grace: Thank you. Thank you guy. [00:43:10] Guy: All right, we're gonna call that a wrap everybody. Audience will look forward to checking out on the next episode.