GeoHeroes - Guy Marcozzi
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[00:00:00] ​

[00:00:05] Guy: Welcome back GeoHeroes listeners. We have an interesting twist on the GeoHeroes podcast. We're gonna turn the tables and I'm gonna introduce to you the brains behind this GeoHeroes podcast Ryan White. And Ryan is going to interview me. Horror of horrors making me nervous, but I did agree to do it 'cause I subjected so many others to this tension.

[00:00:30] So, welcome Ryan.

[00:00:32] Ryan: Hey, thanks guy.

[00:00:34] Since you started this, I've been looking forward to having this opportunity, so I'm glad you agreed.

[00:00:39] Guy: I just wanna make a special shout out here for Ryan. People hear me and I've received a lot of compliments for the GeoHero podcast, but Ryan has really done the Yeo and share the work here and really appreciate making us all look good, not just myself, but I think all of our interviewees feel pretty good about the end product, and we have a fair number of listens, [00:01:00] so we feel like maybe we accomplish something here.

[00:01:02] So that's awesome.

[00:01:04] Turn it over to you, Ryan subject me to your will.

[00:01:07] Ryan: Alright, so for those who don't know me, Ryan White. I'm the chair of the Multimedia Delivery Committee at GBA and I'm a geotechnical engineer in Portland, Oregon for Apex. All right. Feel free to jump in if I forget any of the standard questions here, but let's start off, tell us who is Guy Marcozzi?

[00:01:27] Guy: Huh, well, Guy Marcozzi is a retired consulting engineer living in Reho Beach, Delaware. And I spent a career initially as a structural engineer, but then a geotechnical engineer. I am married to my wife Tina, of 30 some years, 36, 37 years, and we have three children, all of which are engineers, but none of which are in the geoprofession.

[00:01:54] Ryan: How did that happen? No one in the geoprofession. Huh? They saw what you did and they thought they would do something else?[00:02:00] 

[00:02:00] Guy: I mean, to be candid, I encouraged them not to go into engineering to try something else. Grass is always greener, but they all went into engineering and red redoubled my faith that you can go in a lot of different directions from an engineering degree and they're all in tech, so they're doing technical things.

[00:02:16] Um. 

[00:02:18] Ryan: Okay. Tell us, what was your childhood like? Where'd you grow up, what'd your parents do? Kind of your GeoHeroes origin story.

[00:02:27] Guy: So we were a product of the post-war era where my parents grew up in Wilmington, Delaware. And as people were moving out of the cities into the suburbs, they did, and we moved 10 miles out of the city into a little 1200 square foot suburban paradise. Everybody else in the neighborhood was in the same boat.

[00:02:46] So there was a lot of transplant families from Wilmington and, lots of kids and, just really a lot of unstructured play. It's really interesting when you think about that and I bring that up in that it was just a different time, [00:03:00] where we played a lot of stuff.

[00:03:01] We played together, we had to interact and play with kids that were older and younger. And I still think to this day of, we had a park behind our house where we would play, nine v nine baseball with kids ranging from six to 14 years old or something. We, it would just be a pickup game and we'd figure out the rules and if we didn't have enough players, we'd close right field or whatever.

[00:03:24] And then when the season shift, we'd play basketball and the season would shift. We'd play football and we just and we accommodated each other's older kids could just run over the younger kids, but. There's no fun in that after the first time. And, we would slant the rules to make it fair all the time.

[00:03:41] It was a pretty magical time. At least that's where I remember it. I'm sure at the time there was probably problems, but it was pretty cool. We'd get up, we'd go outside and it was ton of fun. So a lot of outside interests as a child. Child, and I just thought that was a really interesting era.

[00:03:56] That's very different from today.

[00:03:58] Ryan: So did you [00:04:00] play organized sports too?

[00:04:01] Guy: We did, but it was a lot harder. Because my parents, I was one of four and they were pretty busy. My dad was working all the time. My mom was a stay at home mom, working out of the house and, we had to get to our own stuff so we could only play in leagues that we could bike to. 

[00:04:17] Ryan: oh, okay. 

[00:04:18] Guy: I had to, maybe bike a mile off via a swim team. We had to bike a couple miles to play baseball a couple miles to play to the old school, to play basketball. So we did it, but it was, again, it was very different. Like we just went and we did our own thing. And it wasn't like anybody was in the family was really paying attention. They were just things to do and it was a lot of fun.

[00:04:38] Ryan: Nice. What about school? When you were younger, were you good at math and science like it seems a the GeoHeroes have been? Or did you have other interests?

[00:04:46] Guy: I was struck by similarities with the other GeoHeroes. I was a good but not great student. I wasn't particularly motivated. I think I was good at math and science, so I didn't have to try hard and I just did well enough because, we were doing these other things. I was first [00:05:00] generation college student, so we didn't have a lot of pressure to, do great to get into a great school or look at different schools.

[00:05:06] And, I think that's one of the stories of my life that I grew up near Wilmington. I went to school at the University of Delaware, which was only, less than 10 miles from my house lived there. That was like a feeder school for me. We just went from one to the next and without a lot of consideration of, what the other options were because nobody in my family had any other, experience or notion that we should think of those things.

[00:05:31] And, I never really moved anywhere. So it was pretty cool. And now I've moved 82 miles south to Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. So some people, that's not much of a move. But for me that was pretty significant. But I still see people that I knew growing up and I enjoy that quite a bit.

[00:05:47] Ryan: I think of you as pretty entrepreneurial, running company and things like that. When you were younger, did you have any side businesses or side jobs, things that you did that maybe contributed to making [00:06:00] you good at what you do?

[00:06:02] Guy: It is interesting and I look back I see myself as a little bit of a slug. I never really thought about working per se, but since you asked the question, I reflect on that. I guess I did. So I had it in me. I had a paper route and when we talked with Joel Carson, he had talked about at Paper Route and some of the same lessons of, having to get up every day and good and bad weather delivering them.

[00:06:22] But I think the big thing was collecting money. You're a 12-year-old kid and you're trying to collect money from adults, and most of them would pay no problem, but some would be problematic. And after a while, you realize if you don't get paid, that you don't get paid. You're getting up in the morning and not getting, any compensation for that.

[00:06:39] And it, it taught me a little bit about how to stand up for myself, which I think directly translated into my career.

[00:06:47] Ryan: So did you throw those people's paper in the puddle if they weren't paying on time or.

[00:06:52] Guy: You know what I did, I was just persistent. I was a respectful child and I would just keep going back to the door and saying, why aren't you paying me? And, [00:07:00] it was like all the excuses, I don't have any money or they wouldn't answer the door, even though I was there. And I was like, this is ridiculous, and I just was persistent. So that was that. My father was a contractor, so he was a construction company and he had strong work ethic and felt like I needed to get a job at 14. So he took me to work with him and he would go to work like really early, like five 30. So that was like the worst, far and away, the worst part of the job getting up.

[00:07:24] But he just threw me in the cruise and, never really made a big deal and I didn't wanna make a big deal as my my father was the owner of the company and, working with these folks from, work release and whatever. And after my initial like fear of, interacting with 'em, they were like pretty, pretty good folks.

[00:07:39] It really I learned a lot. You know, circumstances dictate a lot about people. People can be pretty good people, but in bad situations, you know, things happen to them. And I really respected some of those folks and they treated me pretty well. Of course, I tried to work really hard so that they wouldn't, make fun of me or think I was, my dad's son.

[00:07:56] So I did that for a few years and then he brought me in the office after a [00:08:00] little while. I did a little bit of construction estimation, which was really helpful too, and reading plans and figuring out quantities and but I felt like, I wanted to be my own guy and I always thought I would go back to work for my father in the construction world, but I felt like I had to do something on my own.

[00:08:16] So I took a job out of college as a engineer and I wanted to get my license. And then my thought was I would go back to work for my father, but I never told him that. And then he sold the company before I had my license, so I had to stay into engineering.

[00:08:31] Ryan: What about hobbies or other interests when you were younger? Anything that stands out as maybe contributing to the skillset you have now.

[00:08:41] Guy: Hobbies I really liked music and I had the paper route, so I was a 12-year-old kid making, $20 a week. I felt like I was richest young child in America.

[00:08:50] Ryan: That's a lot of candy 

[00:08:52] Guy: yeah, it was I, and I bought candy and I bought a lot of records and I had a pretty good stereo set and a cool skateboard [00:09:00] and that was pretty cool.

[00:09:01] Ryan: Running the streets of Delaware. Huh?

[00:09:03] Guy: yeah, I guess so. It was just like, our little alcove. But it was pretty cool buying the latest albums. I kept those albums for 30 or 40 years and then finally donated them to some record shop only to find out now that I guess people like those again, and there's probably some value.

[00:09:19] I probably should have saved them a couple more years.

[00:09:23] Ryan: All right. You mentioned going through school without thinking a lot about going to college, but then in the end, it sounds like you had this idea that you were going to go into engineering, get your license, and possibly work for your dad's company. Would you consider that you had this very well-defined plan, or did you just go with your heart or your gut and you kind of wound your way through college and into engineering?

[00:09:49] Or did you start with a pretty good idea of what you wanted to do and just go for it?

[00:09:53] Guy: I was so naive. I really didn't do any research to figure out what I should do. I sort of intuited that I needed to be [00:10:00] in engineering to get in construction and I signed up for mechanical engineering 'cause I didn't really even know what it was. And when I started in intro class, I realized that mechanical engineers don't really build buildings.

[00:10:11] So, I did get a great intro to mechanical class. This is just when computers were starting to be more in use. And our intro class really focused on, it was once more like intro to computer science. And I really learned a lot there, but I was more or less a, and also around student.

[00:10:26] I did well. But not great. And I was conscientious, but, it wasn't like awesome about homework and things like that. It wasn't really until end of my undergraduate that I took a geotechnical class. 'cause we had to, and I really didn't like the professor at all and I wasn't really a serious student in there.

[00:10:48] And he called me into his office and he gave me some grief. And it's funny, I was really offended by that. But the reality is, here's a guy who actually took an interest in me and gave me a little bit of a shakedown. [00:11:00] And we stayed in touch and I went to work for an engineering firm.

[00:11:03] I got the job out of the the Yellow pages, if anybody remembers those. I just sent letters out to about 20 

[00:11:10] Ryan: Oh wow. 

[00:11:10] Guy: engineering firms and only one responded. I took that job. And that was the only company I ever worked for. I started as a structural engineer and I was interested in the interaction of structures and soils.

[00:11:25] So I took some classes, you know, because I'd stayed in touch with this professor and, 'cause I wanted to just understand, what's this phi parameter and c and how do these things work? And it was just like curiosity versus just taking a something and running an equation. And then it turned out I had a few classes and he encouraged me to take the GRE, which I did.

[00:11:44] And then they offered me scholarships to come back and work grad school. And I was living with six of my buddies at the time. We were having a great time

[00:11:53] and I even had a little stipend. So that part of my life was wonderful. We were, living really close to the university. We actually had [00:12:00] money so we could go out and get beers and have fun and, we had this house, it was a dump of a house, but it had a swimming pool, and it was just awesome. And so I had a great time there, but then I graduated and went back to the same firm and that firm was Duffield Associates. Jim Duffield was one of the early members of what was then ASFE.

[00:12:18] So that's how I sort of morphed over to be a geotechnical engineer. But I always felt like the structural part made me a better geotechnical engineer. I could, understand where the structural engineers were coming from and there was a pretty big divide there. And then I more or less spent most of my technical career in that interface between structural and geotechnical.

[00:12:38] So retaining structures, waterfront structures, those types of things where I had an interest.

[00:12:44] Ryan: Did those interests come from mentors you had from your company or just your own interests kind of led you down that path?

[00:12:53] Guy: I think that was my own curiosity, but I don't want to undersell the Dr. Dov Leshchinsky, who was a professor at the [00:13:00] University of Delaware. That role he had in initially just kicking my butt to pay attention and then, bringing me under his wing and, we stayed in touch for many, many years.

[00:13:08] I think that was helpful. I think there were various mentors in my career to push me there, but a lot of it I think was self-driven.

[00:13:16] Ryan: So how do you go from not having much interest in going to college, to going to grad school, to, running a company?

[00:13:25] What happened in between there?

[00:13:27] Guy: Yeah. Interesting. There's no grand plan. Like it was, I guess for career, I said yes a lot. I started in structural, I moved to geotechnical was really strong on customer service. And maybe these things came out of those earlier roles that I had. I don't know, it wasn't intentional.

[00:13:43] I just was always make sure that I did what I was supposed to do in time. I realized there was a a cadence to engineering projects, so I really preached that cadence and that helped us keep our jobs on budget and then, and, get 'em on [00:14:00] time and they, I had built in check-ins with clients, I never wanted clients to call me.

[00:14:03] I wanted to call them before they could call me to tell 'em, where we were with things or even if there was a problem. And I think so I, I became a good project manager and in our profession, if you're a good project manager you get more and more work. And then if you're getting more and more work, you learn to delegate to people and then you get to be a more managerial job.

[00:14:24] So I had some opportunities there. The firm was really small when I started maybe 12 people. And as we grew, there were more opportunities. And my story is, or at least the way I see it when the Lehman Brothers crashed in, 2007 or whenever that was we were in a tough times for our company.

[00:14:44] And that was when I was battlefield promotion to president of the company, kind of figure out what to do. And I really felt unprepared for that. But I felt like I could do it. And I've had this sensation over and over in my career. [00:15:00] Anytime I would get a promotion, I would feel unqualified in about a year's time.

[00:15:05] I would start to get the feel for it where I felt comfortable in the role. And then within another year's time, I felt like I was strong enough that, I was pushing for more stuff or improving things and then the next opportunity would come. And it was that way there, although it was a little bit harder because there was a lot of your career you control the variables, how the work gets done, how you interface with people, all those things.

[00:15:27] But in that environment, the economy was so tough. There just wasn't much work. So there was only so many variables you can control. But we tried to do the right things, trial and error probably made a lot of mistakes. And, eventually, sort of popped through and the company, grew and prospered and, it was a happy ending.

[00:15:44] Ryan: So you brought up a couple interesting things there. I don't know if it's a lesson I learned from a mentor or just through life, but you don't grow or get better at things when things go well, it seems like you're just doing what you were supposed to do. You really have to grow when [00:16:00] things aren't going well, but it's always hard to think about that in the moment when things are going poorly.

[00:16:05] Did you have any doubts when things were that difficult or did you come out of that with a bunch of new lessons learned and growth as a result of that?

[00:16:14] Guy: I think I came out of it with lessons learned and growth, but did I have any low points? I think the single lowest point in my career was during that period, maybe. Like I said, I had this cadence of a year to figure it out and two years to feel like some mastery. It took longer there.

[00:16:28] And there was probably a time, two years in where some of our senior people left that, I counted on and I gotta be honest I don't know if I actually cried, but I, and I felt like crying and I was just like really down and I was really doubting myself and whether we could turn this thing around and what to do.

[00:16:46] And, again, I think I learned a powerful lesson that, if you're objectively looking at what you can be doing and you do it and you stick with it, it usually works out. Or really, that's all you can do. Economy turned and, you know, things started to improve, but it, it took a while to really build up [00:17:00] the morale in the business.

[00:17:01] And, we were out of trouble, but it, wasn't like a great place to be for a few years. And, we just persevered and it wasn't just me. And I really learned how to leverage other people more effectively at that time. And when I look back on it, those are some of the most powerful lessons.

[00:17:15] Just get the right people around you and be aligned. And that takes a lot. But if you do it, you can really accomplish a lot. And when I look back my early career that's far and away my biggest regret that I was very driven for success. Just 'cause I think I probably was secretly hardwired that way.

[00:17:33] But I didn't always worry about the people part, I was a bit of a task master and I think in the end a lot of people ultimately that, stuck around believed in me. 'cause it wasn't selfish. It was just like, Hey, we gotta do this, and no excuses type thing. But looking back, I could have been softer and maybe certainly more empathetic on how people were looking at these situations and figure out how to make them better.

[00:17:59] Not worry about it from my [00:18:00] perspective, but look at it from their perspective. Because if they're effective, then we're effective and it took a while to that really to sink in and maybe to make amends for those first 20 or 30 years of my career. I've tried to really focus on that these last 10 years.

[00:18:16] Ryan: So fair to say that perseverance and grit maybe as a function of seeing your dad go to work every day regardless of the conditions early, were part of what contributed to you being successful through that period.

[00:18:32] Guy: I guess so I never really look at it like that, it's funny, I just really feel fortunate that all these things happened and I can't emphasize enough. There was no grand plan. I never really was looking at it strategically. It just felt like you have these tasks at hand and you just need to do 'em.

[00:18:48] And if you said you're gonna do 'em, you need to do it. And frankly, I think if you look back at my childhood I don't know there, it feels like there was a whole lot there that would suggest that. But I guess you're right. It's just people around me and, those circumstances, but [00:19:00] I really can't pin it.

[00:19:01] Of course, my dad went to work every day. He worked really hard. He started his own company, and I guess that did have an impact on me, but I never really, I probably should think about it that way.

[00:19:12] Ryan: All right. The other thing you had mentioned was, you always felt unprepared when you were put in a new position. And I've heard this mentioned on the GeoHeroes podcast with several folks, this idea of the reluctant CEO. They never felt prepared, but it seemed like they were actually prepared, like other people wanted them to do it.

[00:19:32] So it's interesting that you say that you felt unprepared. I'm sure the people around you thought you were probably the most qualified though.

[00:19:41] Guy: I guess so because I was given the opportunity. But I'll put a plug in for GBA I think we went through the peer review process every few years and I think the external peer reviewers were bigger advocates than internal. I think at that time in the early two thousands, I was probably viewed it more as a terror and I suspect some people probably didn't wanna see me [00:20:00] move ahead just 'cause they probably found me abrasive to work with.

[00:20:04] But again, it was never really about promoting myself. It was just this, fanatical commitment to deliver what I said I would do. And and then I had to learn to soften those other things. 'cause, again I didn't intentionally mean to be disrespectful to others. And in retrospect, I feel bad about it.

[00:20:21] Now I wouldn't say I was abusive, but I just was not empathetic, we have to get this done. Let's just do it. We have to work, we have to work.

[00:20:28] Ryan: It's interesting that what got us to where we are is not what continues to make you successful going forward, and that it seems to be another trend that not everybody, but a lot of people are driven and focused on tasks early in their career and then later in their career think a lot more about, about the people.

[00:20:47] I think that's a pretty common trend I've seen.

[00:20:50] Guy: I think it's just human nature. You're grappling. I just have much wider perspective on the world and people and interactions in our profession today than I had at that time. And I think that's, it [00:21:00] would be the exception of folks that didn't have that.

[00:21:02] You'd mentioned the other GeoHero interviews and I identified with just about everybody, we all had pretty similar different but similar similarities in our paths. And that was really shocking to me. I know you're gonna ask me about that later, perhaps, but that was one of the things that, came across to me

[00:21:20] Ryan: Yeah, I actually was gonna ask you if there's anything you heard that reinforces some of your existing beliefs. And I think what you said was yeah you really identified with some of those people and their paths.

[00:21:30] Guy: and really how if you had, dialed back the clock to our teenage years or early career years, should predict the outcomes later had been just probably, you know, random. I don't know that any of the folks or many of the folks that we talked to really felt destined for whatever or had a grant plan.

[00:21:48] It's just circumstances presented themselves and they rose to the challenge.

[00:21:53] Ryan: Yeah. So what the undertone of what I'm hearing from you is there was maybe some luck involved, but there's that saying that the [00:22:00] more prepared you are, the luckier you are. So maybe it wasn't all luck.

[00:22:05] Guy: Yeah, I don't think it was all luck, but I think I was fortunate to be in situations where I had opportunities and then I think I guess the part I could take credit for is I took advantage of some of those opportunities.

[00:22:19] Ryan: Okay, so we talked a little bit about this, but is there a specific trait, something that you're really good at, that you think served you well as a leader? Was it the empathy you developed later in your career or was it sort of the task driven stuff that led to your early success or something else?

[00:22:41] Guy: That's a good question, Ryan. And again, if I think about that over time, I may have different answers, but what stands out right now is I think I've always been the person that wants to do what I say I'm gonna do. I think that reliability is a innate driver for me. If I [00:23:00] have a project assignment, I'm going to really do what I need to do to get that done.

[00:23:03] If I'm tasked with, helping a company be successful and I'm really focused on what those things are and I think out of that, came some of these other things, what got you here won't get you there. And you mentioned earlier, there's a certain point in your career if you want to scale, you really need to understand that other people is where scaling comes from and how you interface with other people is critically important to that.

[00:23:29] And I think we all have these capabilities and sometimes we don't realize we have 'em. So we have to really, look inward to find those talents and then actively develop them. And that's what I focused on in the last quartile of my career if not the last half.

[00:23:47] Ryan: So would you say coaching other people or motivating other people? What led you to being successful? When you talk about scaling being a function of the other people, what helped you motivate those people?

[00:23:59] Guy: I [00:24:00] think the one thing that I actually had in me, but I didn't realize it is empathy. I think and when I say empathy, I mean looking at situation from other people's perspective. And if you think about it, you know other people that are working with you, but also think about your clients.

[00:24:14] For a long time, I just thought my clients were godlike. We're gonna pick somebody to do the job and, we have all the power in the world and, get it done. And it went over budget, they had the opportunity to give you more money or not, or extensions of time or whatever.

[00:24:27] And it took me a while to realize that they have boss too, right? So if they hire us, then it's a decision they made, they're gonna be judged on. And then if we get the job done, and it's great they look good. If we don't get the job done, it's late, or we charge more money. It's a demerit against them, right?

[00:24:43] So it was like a social contract that, you've honored me by, picking us to do this and now it's my obligation to, help you be successful. So how are you successful? No surprises. Stay on budget, stay on time. You can deliver great work [00:25:00] by seeing what the folks that are getting that work are gonna get out of what you're giving them.

[00:25:04] And then, you can apply it to, other people that are working on your team. Like, look, this is a job. I have a family. I have all these other things going on. You know, people are at different stages of their lives. Maybe just move from another area.

[00:25:16] You don't know anybody. Maybe you're starting a family and you just had a child and you're figuring out how to make all that work. Maybe you're going through a divorce, maybe you're getting married. I noticed that when folks were getting ready to get married, for the six months leading up to the marriage, they were distracted by other stuff.

[00:25:31] Right. And that was cool, right? You're getting married, it's a big deal . At one point I'd be like, I don't care if you get married, you have to get this job done. That wasn't the right way to go. So I think if you can really start to see who you're interacting with and try and look at where they're coming from, I think it really helps you work better as a team.

[00:25:48] And then the leveraging comes out of that.

[00:25:51] Ryan: So a couple things you said there. One idea that you mentioned was something I've heard before where if you make your boss look [00:26:00] good, you know that bodes well for you. Similarly, if you make your client look good to their boss, that helps you too. So it's interesting to hear you. Say that that was part of your success. All right. I'm just gonna kind of change gears a little bit and roll this into more about the geoprofession. I've heard a lot of people on the podcast talk about how many things have sort of remained, unchanged. A lot of the fundamentals of, geotechnical engineering specifically are the same.

[00:26:25] We're still driving SPT samplers with all the technology we have, with the implementation of AI and some of the other technology automation things. Where do you hope the geoprofession goes in the future?

[00:26:38] Guy: Yes. Good question and this kind of thing we should be talking about here. I think it's easy to get lulled into a feeling that not much has changed over time because some of these things happen slowly. But I do fear, not fear. I think that the profession is starting to rapidly change and where do I hope it will go?[00:27:00] 

[00:27:00] I think a lot of the things that we depended on, in terms of data collection and stuff like that may continue. We might do it differently and how we do it differently is irrelevant. But I think we need to start thinking ourselves more as a data service. A lot of the engineering that we do is fairly routine or will be automated at some point.

[00:27:18] It's really like the parameters that go into it. And then it's also I think the key to all engineering is asking the right questions about what are we trying to accomplish, right? So we're not being hired to go get samples, per se we're really looking at it, and this is where the empathy comes in.

[00:27:34] What's the client wanna get out of this? I wanna make sure my I can build this building and it's gonna stand up, or whatever I'm doing is gonna be, structurally sound and I can do it with my budget and the timeline, and I wanna have certainty around those things. So I think the profession is gonna go is really looking at our businesses data harvesting, and then the client interaction part where the sort of helping our clients assess what the real [00:28:00] needs are, not their immediate need, but what they're really trying to accomplish.

[00:28:03] And in consulting at that higher level, and then bringing the data to support that and using the technology, I think more and more, to get to the actual solution. So I think that part will be minimized, but the data as a service and the client psychologist, where you're getting in and trying to understand the real deeper meetings and providing that higher value is where the high value will be.

[00:28:26] So our challenge as a profession, I think, is to figure out what we're gonna do with the data. I know ASCE tried to do this with the DIGGS, but nobody's really incented to give all their data away.

[00:28:38] Ryan: Yeah.

[00:28:39] Guy: And we're all sort of incented to collect our own data and maybe mine it, but at some point I think we're gonna need to, share our data and we're gonna have to feel like we can monetize it in an appropriate way to give us the value for the data that we have, and then use other people's data and compensate them for the data that they have, such that we'll [00:29:00] optimize the collection of and use of data.

[00:29:02] So we really need to see it as a data business and a, high level client consult to get them to bigger things. And we might need to see our role expand in terms of how to really understand what clients are trying to do. And I think the geoprofession is really well suited for this because we are problem solvers.

[00:29:21] If you look at the geoprofession, whether it be environmental or geotechnical a lot of times when you start it's really a blank page. And you have to figure out, where you're going and chart that course. And those early decisions really impact your end outcomes.

[00:29:34] Like I'm a client. I'm trying to do a project. I don't really care. I'm assuming that it'll be fine, right? The end structure will be fine. It'll function as noted. But I'm thinking about things like how can I deliver this in time to meet my business need?

[00:29:47] How can I deliver it within some range of budget that I have been able to make a proforma around? If it's an environmental situation, how do I get the regulatory approvals and not get bogged down or [00:30:00] lambasted at public meetings as being, a bad person. So a lot of that is really early in the project and then you have to execute on it.

[00:30:06] But I think we really need to look at those, high value things as where, I think geoprofession needs to go. And I think we've done it our whole careers. And if we can just sort of reprogram ourselves to look at the bigger picture we'll easily slot into that. 'cause I think we're better prepared than other professions to do that.

[00:30:23] Ryan: Data and data collection maybe becomes a commodity. Maybe young engineers aren't going into the field and drilling, like they are now, or collecting samples or maybe even lab testing becomes less critical because we have so much data. What do you envision the entry level geotechnical engineer would be doing?

[00:30:43] How do we prepare them to be that project manager if they aren't exposed to that field work that maybe is not as relevant anymore?

[00:30:54] Guy: Yeah, I didn't say we wouldn't collect more data, I just don't think it'll be a professional service. At some point it's gonna be, and [00:31:00] maybe it already is commoditized, but I see more of that coming, I think integrating the data and being smart about what data we need to get. So how do we answer your question about what is new folks coming into the profession do to be ready for that.

[00:31:11] That's the big challenge because it takes a lot of that experience and time, maturation to see the bigger picture. But I think there's a lot of opportunities from folks entering in to just see how the data can be a service, right? So how to integrate a better use technology and eliminate a lot of the, performance steps of the process. And I think some of the senior folks at my level get offended when folks minimize that. But I think we need to be more open to there are ways to optimize this. And coming in with a fresh set of eyes and applying new technology to these things is gonna need to come I think largely from a new generation of folks.

[00:31:48] Ryan: Yeah, I think what I heard is startups and disruptors love to hear people say my job can't be replaced by a robot, or, this is how we've always done it, because they always seem to find a more creative [00:32:00] or effective way to do some of that. So I definitely see some of that in the geoprofessions where there's definitely the original or older way of doing things and there's this newer way and there's this middle ground of trying to figure out how we do it the new way, I think.

[00:32:14] Guy: But look at it this way the, with the demographic trends there's, less people being born. There's more people retiring, right? So there's less people in the profession and in some ways, GBA was around to, help resolve the loss prevention issue. And we did the best practices there and largely pretty successful.

[00:32:32] And then we talked a lot about business optimization and, profitability, being able to charge more. There was railing against commoditization. Well, frankly, we're solving that, right? Scarcity is how you solve commoditization, but how do we position ourselves in a scarce environment, we're gonna have less folks.

[00:32:48] So I think it's really gonna come down to, how do we really embrace technology to get the workload out of the folks that we do have? And then those folks need to be rock stars, right? They're gonna serve a real need. [00:33:00] They're gonna be the data jockeys, you know, figuring out how to get it, and by getting it, I don't mean just going out and drilling, I mean, , where does it exist?

[00:33:07] How do we mine the databases? How do we share data and monetize each other for the data that we have? And then that is gonna come from another generation. And then how do we charge for that? At that point, you were spending $25,000 on field sampling. If I can get it out of a database, how do I charge for that?

[00:33:26] Maybe I charge it at $24,000 and I make most of that as a profit margin. And then that, helps us compensate the people that we have at a better level. It's hard to say how the future will go exactly, but it feels like those are the types of things that are going to drive our profession. And if we don't figure it out, somebody else will.

[00:33:43] Ryan: Yeah, I've heard it mentioned that maybe the geoprofessional company of the future is a software or data company that has engineers to help them with that, rather than an engineering company that uses technology. What do you think about that?

[00:33:57] Guy: But in the end, you really have to think about it from a [00:34:00] client perspective. If I'm doing something, I'm a client, right? I want to build something or get something done, I'm looking at an outcome and I'm really not that worried about the specifics because I have great confidence based on the long track record of professionals, it's gonna get done well.

[00:34:15] So maybe that's misplaced, but that's what I think a lot of 'em are thinking. And we need to be thinking in terms of, you know, forget about the nuts and bolts and the steps. Like how do we position these clients for their success in a way that they will feel like it's successful? And old paradigms I don't think are gonna apply there.

[00:34:35] And of course they're changing too, right? So we think our clients are this constant, group of folks, like the ones that we work for through our career. But, people entering our profession are entering those other professions too. And they are our clients. And a lot of times junior people on the client end are the ones that are procuring our services.

[00:34:51] So how do we engage with them? How do we make them feel like they're getting value there? How do we make them look good? And I think [00:35:00] there's big changes ahead, candidly.

[00:35:02] Ryan: Yeah. All right. Changing gears again here. Second Mountain, you started the second mountain peer group largely made up of people later in their careers or retiring, or retirees. So you mentioned earlier that you're kind of at that point in your career. So what's next for you? What's your second mountain?

[00:35:22] Guy: I like to evangelize on this. I told you I had no real plan. I worked really hard through my career and I don't regret any of it. I think it, worked out pretty well, actually, better than I had thought. But it's a hard profession, right? I think by the hour, professions are really difficult because you're always on the clock.

[00:35:41] There were days I would work so hard, and then I would look at my time sheet and I was like where did my time go? I don't have these hours. And again I told you this sort of passion I have to deliver on what I'm say I'm gonna do. So. At some point I felt like, this isn't really sustainable.

[00:35:58] I'm carrying a lot of [00:36:00] stress with me and, what's beyond that? And it took a long time to just even be mature enough to step outside myself and look at that in terms of, do I wanna work like this to that day I die? Or do I want to do something different? And so I very deliberately made some decisions that I would move away from this.

[00:36:17] And, I told you my story of stepping in at a difficult time. And then over a period of time we transformed the company and were, very profitable and had a great, work environment. A lot of really it was a feel good story in my view. And it's hard to step away from that.

[00:36:32] I was a CEO, so I had come through the hard part and frankly, my job became easier because we had great people doing good things and we were really profitable and, all that. But I still felt like it was time to move on, let other people take over turn the chapter and then create a new chapter for myself.

[00:36:54] I mentioned earlier, I never really lived more than 82 miles from where I grew up, including going to school and [00:37:00] for probably the first 58 years of my life, probably within 10 miles of where I was born, right? So, I felt like there's a big world out there. I should be, experiencing it differently.

[00:37:10] And by that, not just geographically, but doing different things and getting involved in different activities. It was very deliberate and it took a little while to figure out what I was gonna do, but I kind of feel like I'm there now. Like I've, disentangled from, the business completely a lot of my professional local network.

[00:37:27] And I'm looking for, new opportunities. I just want to grow as a person and experience things. And, people say, well, you retire, you can do anything you want, and that part's really cool. But, think about the cool parts of our job where we're meeting with all these terrific people and we can point to projects that we worked on and feel good about our role in those.

[00:37:44] I didn't wanna leave that. So how do I look for things that will give me purpose and community and a sense of wellbeing and that's what I'm focused on. And then what I realized is when I say that, it's easy to laugh at me. Why do you get [00:38:00] to do that? But there are a lot of folks on the back end of their careers that I think are very much in the same position.

[00:38:05] And when I started reaching out to folks at GBA, I realized that they were, and then there was this sort of interest in, it's just feels so good to talk to somebody about this type of stuff. And, we look at it differently, but I think we all sort of share this feeling that the next mountain for us isn't sitting on the beach all day and, playing golf. There are good things to do, but there is a a need to do something else.

[00:38:31] Interact with people that challenge us, that expose us to new ideas work for organizations that have great purpose. Use some of the, really I think varied skills that we have to develop in our career that can help others. And a message I would send to folks that are listening, the geoprofession's a pretty interesting profession.

[00:38:51] Like we're required to be successful, to be good technical people, to be good project managers, financial managers, to have some sales component [00:39:00] interface with clients. So it's a pretty varied job. You're required to multitask and have multi-skill. So as you get involved in other things outside of your career, you'll find that those skills translate really well, or I felt that way.

[00:39:14] And then they help you grow too, because now you're seeing other people outside the profession getting exposed to different things. But yet you have the skillset where you can really deliver and you'll gain a lot of respect that way. I don't know exactly what the future holds for me to answer your question, but I'm pretty confident there's a lot of opportunities out there and I intend to keep exploring them.

[00:39:34] Ryan: So I've heard the undertone of your answer to some of these questions, and it just occurred to me that you talked about empathy and helping others a lot, even when we're talking about the next phase of your life. And I think Saiid would describe it as following your heart, right? Like it's not something in a technical profession that we think about.

[00:39:55] It seems kind of woo woo, but it seems like more than just you, there are other people you've [00:40:00] interviewed too, where serving people Tom and Grace Blackburn talked about that recently was really their purpose and motivation and they've been, incredibly successful doing that.

[00:40:11] So it sounds like following your heart is what guided you, I think in terms of later in your career maybe.

[00:40:19] Guy: I think you should always try and follow your heart, but I think early it's hard to understand what that even means. But I do feel like I worked really hard in my career. And what I earned more than anything is freedom of time. Time is a form of wealth, right? So I get to control what I do on any given day.

[00:40:39] And, while it's fun to, do fun stuff I feel like some of that needs to have a purpose where it affects others in positive ways, beyond myself. And at the same time, it's a give to get where if you're interfacing with different people you just take things away from them.

[00:40:55] So I, I feel like it's still, even [00:41:00] though in a lot of ways on charitable wards or doing things, I feel like I gain as much from those experiences as giving and, you know, like a lot of things I don't know how intentional it is, but it does feel right and what I'm trying to make intentional is use my time in ways that I feel like I should, because I'm older than I was.

[00:41:22] Hopefully I still have a long way to go but that time is finite and I want to use it effectively,

[00:41:28] Ryan: Awesome. All right, we're gonna transition to the speed round, and I know you are all too familiar with these questions. So first question, what's a, I'm gonna reframe this a little bit from what you usually ask. What's a book or book you've gifted, recommended, or reread the most?

[00:41:48] Guy: I'm a pretty big book guy and I'm almost exclusively non-fiction. So I feel like if I'm gonna invest in a book, I want to come out of something with it. So depending on when you ask me that question. I could give [00:42:00] you vastly different answers. I generally don't read business improvement books anymore.

[00:42:04] They completely bore me. They're probably good, and I'm not minimizing them. At some point in your career you should read them, but the thing I'm real into more recently is like big history stuff. Big history is, just sort of from Big Bang till now. We tend to think of our world as, what's right in front of us or what we experienced.

[00:42:22] And I think we often forget that we're just a blip in time. I think all of humanity is just a blip in time. If the universe is 10 billion years old and the earth is 4 billion years old and since the dinosaurs collapsed and the mammals took over the earth, it's, 200 million years and, modern humans are only 40,000 years old, right?

[00:42:43] So it's just a blip of time, and yet we view this world as the way it is and the way it has to be and the way it should be. And it's almost an accident of time. And I think it's incredibly humbling and it gives you great perspective. So probably the best book on that is [00:43:00] Sapiens Harari's Sapiens.

[00:43:01] It's a great read. He's an historian, super smart guy, and he's got some other books too, including one very concerned book about AI. But I think it's great to get that perspective and I'd highly recommend Sapiens. I'm high on that one.

[00:43:14] Ryan: Good recommendation. Have you read any of the books that other people have recommended on the podcast yet?

[00:43:20] Guy: A lot of 'em already read and some of 'em I had read, but don't ask me which ones because I can't remember the names.

[00:43:28] Ryan: All right. From one to five, with five being highest, what's your optimism index for the geoprofessions?

[00:43:36] Guy: And I'll qualify for the geoprofession.

[00:43:38] Ryan: Yes.

[00:43:39] Guy: I'm a five, I'm gonna say I'm a five for the geoprofession because I think that geoprofessionals do have the ability to change are challenging ourselves. I think GBA is a great organization to help, push that. And I think that because we're small and specialized and also diversified in terms of, understanding [00:44:00] how business works and that sort of thing, we're going to see the need to change faster than others and we're gonna make that change.

[00:44:09] And I think that. Demographic trends and such support that, we're gonna be able to do more with less and deliver at a higher level of value. So I feel pretty good about where we are but I caveat that, that we need to recognize that change and make it happen.

[00:44:25] Ryan: All right. Where has your biggest professional impact been in your career?

[00:44:34] Guy: Yeah, this is a hard question. I don't know why I put it on here. I'm super proud of I told you I was a structural engineer to this day I still see different things that I was actively involved in, point to them with great pride. I have to say that's probably it. But I think really more broadly, I was just really proud to be associated with Duffield Associates, and I feel like I had a big part of the success there. [00:45:00] And the people that I work with on the leadership team were just magnificent. That really were my rocks and helped me, and I think those bonds are really strong and make me feel proud.

[00:45:13] Ryan: Good. Anything you wish you would have done or wished you had done differently in your career or your life?

[00:45:23] Guy: I think I had mentioned earlier if I had the context I have now, I would've probably, emphasize people more early in my career other people, coworkers and figured out way to, interact more seamlessly and leverage them. Like really, looking at it from other people's perspective and not being so focused on outcomes and perhaps a little more focused on process in terms of how I could have stepped back, understood how they were looking at things and then provided them the tools and guidance they needed to be super successful.

[00:45:57] And that, that's probably the one thing, that I think back on[00:46:00] 

[00:46:00] Ryan: Yeah. What would your advice to new professionals be?

[00:46:07] Guy: Again tough question because there's probably a lot of things that you could say here. Some are probably, really good and some are maybe super biased. But I think what I would recommend is get involved in other organizations that have nothing to do with your company early on and do that forever through your career.

[00:46:26] You'll learn a lot. You'll meet new people some of which can help you, some of which may be good friends. Some of us will just teach you lessons of how to deal with people. When you work in a hierarchical organization you learn certain things, but if you go to work for a non-profit board or activity, and you're working with people that are only there 'cause they want to be there it teaches you how to be a better leader.

[00:46:54] Now you're starting to look at like I had said earlier, through their lens, why are they here and they're [00:47:00] donating their time, so how do you maximize what they're willing to give? And I think, so it's a whole other way of looking at sort of management and leadership in different environments.

[00:47:11] And again, I think the network should get from that is terrific. It will only help you. And maybe not even directly. So don't look at it like I'm gonna sell to these people, but just look at different ways that other people manage folks different ideas, different experiences that they're having.

[00:47:28] It can really enrich your life dramatically. And then on top of that, and this is, really the charity, whatever those organizations are doing, have higher purpose and you can feel good about what that organization's doing.

[00:47:40] Ryan: And when you say get involved with organizations, do you mean just attending meetings or you mean actively engaging, being committee members, things like that.

[00:47:49] Guy: I think you have to decide you know, I didn't mention this earlier, but I was always really committed to being part of my family. So in addition to working a lot, I was always really involved. I [00:48:00] initially started with some of the professional organizations and that was a good way to get started. 'cause they're looking for people and it's easy and you learn some outside guidance and, build a little network there.

[00:48:08] But, I was just involved in sports organizations. My kids were involved in, I actively coached some stuff at the church, some Heart Association, Multiplying Good, which is a way to, leverage students to do good in their community. And studies have shown that when you can contribute earlier in life, it helps you grow as a person.

[00:48:27] So just, there's just all kinds of stuff out there that you can be involved in. And, I think you should.

[00:48:34] Ryan: Awesome. All right, so we're gonna go a little bit longer here because I want to capture some of your experience doing this GeoHeroes Podcast, which is to you compared to some of our other guests. So you have a wide range of friends and colleagues in GBA. What's the one thing you learned as a result of doing the GeoHeroes Podcast that you hadn't previously realized about the geoprofessions?[00:49:00] 

[00:49:01] Guy: I think that the thing that really stood out to me from doing all the interviews is just how ordinary all the GeoHeroes were in their formative years. And frankly, how almost everybody really didn't have this grand plan of, they're gonna be running a company or really successful in business, or, terrific engineer.

[00:49:18] They were just taking one step at a time. So the takeaway would be don't get too upset if you don't have the grand plan. Just stay focused on what's in front of you, do well at what you're doing, and keep your eye open for other opportunities to, take advantage of them. And I think that was a common thread through most of the interviews.

[00:49:38] Ryan: I think that ties into advice for new professionals too, right there.

[00:49:42] Guy: Yes, that's true.

[00:49:44] Ryan: What's something you've learned about yourself as a result of doing all these interviews?

[00:49:50] Guy: I will say this publicly I've never been known as a great listener, right?

[00:49:55] I.

[00:49:56] I talked a lot and early in my career I talked a lot, even more than now. [00:50:00] The GeoHeroes podcast is really, as an interview. I had thought when we were putting this together, I really needed to listen to folks and let them tell their story and not tell my story.

[00:50:12] So I learned about myself. Shut up Guy, and just ask the questions and let it see where it goes. And sometimes people need a prompt, but they don't need my concurrence or or own thoughts on those issues, and that was a growing experience for me.

[00:50:28] Ryan: Even at your current age, you're still learning and growing. So proud of you Guy.

[00:50:32] Guy: Thank you, Ryan.

[00:50:34] Ryan: Knowing what you know now, would you do anything different if you were starting the GeoHeroes podcast today?

[00:50:41] Guy: First I think it's important this is probably a good time to say it how chaotic this thing was when I became president of GBA. It's sort of recognized as president, you have to pick some kind of initiative and how you're gonna communicate with folks. And I didn't wanna write a newsletter or anything.

[00:50:56] I couldn't think of a good idea, but I thought, you know, if we could [00:51:00] do some interviews with folks, some themes would come out. But I didn't know how well it would go. And this is where I'll give a good shout out to Ryan. I approached Ryan about this concept and Ryan being Ryan is like, yeah, we'll give it a go.

[00:51:11] We can make it happen. So you were encouraging probably maybe you really didn't know it was gonna be a lot of trouble or not, but your calmness gave me some strength. And then my next step was, well, I need to talk somebody into doing this with me. So who do we start on? And, shout out to Mark Kramer.

[00:51:29] We were doing a peer review, and over breakfast one morning, I'm like, Hey, I had this this idea, would you be willing to do it? And he asked me like, Mark does, you know, some really cogent questions that I didn't have great answers for, but I was like but I really wanna do it.

[00:51:42] Could you do it for me? And then he did it his favor, and then we invented it on the fly. Then after Mark, it was like who could be next? Right? And then, Stewart and some other folks, stepped up. But it was really, I think not for certain that we could even pull this off.

[00:51:57] Like first that we would have a concept that anybody would be interested [00:52:00] in. And secondly, that people would even be willing to do this. So, anyway, long story short, this is how we got here. How would I do it differently? I would've fought through all this beforehand and had a better master plan and these initial Guinea pig people.

[00:52:15] Thank you all for agreeing to do that. Maybe a better representation of what we were trying to get to, but it worked out and I think in large part, because all the folks that were interviewed are highly professional and, have great stories to share. So it made it easy, but it was not apparent in the beginning.

[00:52:33] Ryan: Well, I never doubted it never doubted you.

[00:52:37] Guy: Thank 

[00:52:37] Ryan: been, it's been fun.

[00:52:39] Guy: It has been fun.

[00:52:40] Ryan: Now that season one is coming to a close here, how do you feel? Are you relieved? You talked about the chaos. Are you excited? Are you energaged about what's next for you?

[00:52:50] Guy: I think I'm just like I feel gratitude for, the opportunity to just sit down for an hour with all these really interesting people and have them just tell me about [00:53:00] themselves. Like I really just can't tell you how thankful I am for that opportunity. I think just about everybody I knew, but I didn't necessarily know how well I knew 'em.

[00:53:08] And frankly, I think I know 'em all better now, having done this. And I think they were nervous too, right? Like it was a risk on two sides. I think it's really common and I'm having some of these thoughts now, how does this interview play out when it's, recorded and pushed out there, will it be received well?

[00:53:25] Did I, clear on my points? Did they make sense? All those types of things and people took that chance. So I I'm grateful to them and I'm feeling grateful, in a single word.

[00:53:36] Ryan: Awesome. All right. Anything else you wanna share with listeners about your experience with this or just anything in general that maybe we haven't covered in much detail that you wanted to share?

[00:53:49] Guy: I think probably the one thing I would say is and I alluded to this earlier, the selection of the interviews for this podcast was it wasn't random, but it was a function of [00:54:00] just, who we were able to get at the time. And probably not a comprehensive list of folks. And if you had to generalize, it's a group of folks that were really later in their careers, if not post-career.

[00:54:11] And to a person, you know, grew up in a different environment. And I think if we talk about GeoHeroes, we probably wanna start thinking about people that are in the profession, the folks that are actually doing the work right now. So looking forward, maybe there's an opportunity there to celebrate folks that are not at the end of their career, but folks that are, in the mud, so to speak.

[00:54:35] Ryan: So stay tuned for season two once we let you recuperate a little bit.

[00:54:39] Guy: That's a, what do they call that cliffhanger?

[00:54:42] Ryan: There you go. There you go. All right. I've personally learned so much. I've had the unique experience of, editing all these episodes, so I feel like I listened to 'em all two or three times in that process. And it's been a great experience for me. Thank you for, doing this, taking this on. From [00:55:00] my perspective you seem like you had it nailed. I never sensed any hesitation from you or that it was difficult in any way. So you made it look easy. Thank you Guy for that. And to all the GeoHeroes for the amazing stories. I think it makes me feel better about my own journey knowing it isn't so different or so unique.

[00:55:20] I think these are gonna become an important part of the GBA archives for decades to come. And I think it's very fitting that you get a chance to share your feelings here at the end.

[00:55:30] Guy: Well, on behalf of all of us, Ryan thanks for producing this and putting it together. I really want to emphasize again, how much work Ryan did to make this successful.

[00:55:38] Ryan: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:55:40] Guy: Alright, listeners, thanks for tuning in. I appreciate your interest and if you're still on, then you really are, our core listeners, thanks, we're signing off.