Rae Woods (00:28):
From Advisory Board, we are bringing you a Radio Advisory, your weekly download on how to untangle healthcare's most pressing challenges. My name is Rachel Woods, you can call me Rae.

(00:39):
It's not news that consumers are disappointed in healthcare. They're in fact, frustrated. They're enraged with our business, and we've long seen that translate into rising rates of patient dissatisfaction. What's new is that we're seeing growing levels of dissatisfaction contribute to a slippery slope of patient distrust, and skepticism with the healthcare industry and frankly, science and medicine, writ large.

(01:07):
Let me put this into context for you. From 2023 to 2025, we've seen an eight point increase in Americans who don't trust their doctor at all to make the right recommendation for their health. Now, nearly one in six patients don't trust their doctor. One in six, and this distrust matters. It impacts clinical quality, it impacts your workforce, it impacts public health. There are a lot of valid reasons why patients may feel dissatisfied with their care, and I'm not going to completely place blame on healthcare's doorstep. This is the result of a rapid increase in societal distrust. That means patient distrust is not entirely your fault, but it is your problem.

(01:50):
To help us understand how we got here and where healthcare leaders can go to rebuild trust next, I've invited Advisory Board experts, Morghen Philippi and Matt Cornner. Matt, Morghen, welcome to Radio Advisory.

Matt Cornner (02:05):
Hi, Rae.

Morghen Philippi (02:06):
Yeah, Rae, glad to be here.

Rae Woods (02:08):
The two of you separately and together have been having lots of conversations about an old problem in healthcare that is coming to light in new ways, and it's the challenge of distrust and misinformation. And I want us to be really clear about what we're actually talking about here. How do you define patient distrust when it comes to healthcare?

Morghen Philippi (02:32):
This is such an important place to start, Rae, because I think a lot of times we have questions about trust and distrust and we're not on the same page. So, thank you for asking a question. When I am talking about distrust, I am talking about patients thinking that healthcare will not or cannot provide them with the care they need or they think they deserve. That means sometimes it's deliberate, sometimes it's a shortfall, and an active choice on behalf of healthcare or healthcare providers. Sometimes it's because our healthcare system is at capacity, it's maxed out, or it's the way this system is put together.

Rae Woods (03:08):
Yeah, just can't provide the kind of support.

Morghen Philippi (03:11):
Even when they really want to.

Rae Woods (03:13):
There's one statistic that is truly keeping me up at night, which is that one in six patients don't trust their doctor at all to make the right recommendation for their healthcare, and that's a pretty shocking number to me. How much of the problem is lack of trust with the individual provider versus lack of trust with the institution of healthcare?

Matt Cornner (03:37):
It's much easier if we could pin it on, I don't like my doctor, or this particular health system. It is much, much thornier than that.

Rae Woods (03:45):
I'm not going to ask you to have a perfect answer here, but how did we get here? How did we get from five years ago, the American public, the world rallying around healthcare in the early stages of the pandemic, to now the point that we're at today?

Morghen Philippi (04:03):
I want to ground us in the patient perspective. So when I as a patient engage with healthcare, they're not thinking about discrete entities of, this is the hospital versus, this is my provider. They are thinking about their healthcare experience as a whole. So their engagement with healthcare starts with, how did I get my appointment? What was it like to walk into that clinic or that hospital or that health system? What was it like to interact with a front staff member? What was it like to walk back to this room? What was it like to work with a nurse or the person who brought me into the room? What was it like to work with this provider? And what was discharge like? And they're not thinking discreetly about, well, did I trust the hospital that I walked into? Okay, now do I trust the doctor that I'm talking to? They're thinking about it as a whole. Is this entire thing, this entire healthcare ecosystem providing them with the care they want or need or deserve, or not?

Rae Woods (04:56):
I think the point that you're making and the point that our listeners need to accept is that the experience of healthcare is challenging at best. Under most conditions, it's too expensive, it's too hard to get care. But what I think you're describing, Morghen, is that the dissatisfaction with the healthcare experience is bleeding into or breeding true distrust with every corner of the institution.

Morghen Philippi (05:18):
100%. And it gets back to your question, is it the individual? Is it healthcare in general? It's all, it's all of it all at once.

Matt Cornner (05:24):
So there's the healthcare system as a whole and the patient journey through that, but I'm also thinking about, Rae, you talked about since COVID. I'd be very interested in seeing the pre-COVID levels of trust because all of those things were features of the system before COVID. I imagine one interpretation is that moment of crisis when there was an acute focus on saving lives, treating the sick, that there was the people rallying around healthcare providers, particularly in the stages of the pandemic. And as that crisis response went on, a lot of people feeling as though the healthcare system, including institutions of science weren't caring for the whole person in that COVID restrictions that keep me from actually earning a living, that seemed to be doing fine with some segments of society aren't helping me at all care for myself or my family. So, you may have intervened on my physical condition, but broader than that, I'm starting to feel distrust.

Rae Woods (06:27):
What I think I'm hearing is that we now have a spotlight on a larger societal level problem that has always existed among certain groups of individuals of not feeling heard, not feeling seen, not being trusted. I'm thinking about the data that we have that physicians believe, believe that their black patients don't experience pain in the same way that their white patients, and therefore the level of advocacy that patients of color need to have for their own care. I'm thinking about women who haven't been trusted about their own healthcare experience, what they're going through during stages of their life. Those existed long before the pandemic, but there might be some big moments that have happened in the last few years that have put more of a national societal spotlight on dissatisfaction and distrust.

Morghen Philippi (07:19):
And here I want to point out that it's easy to think that some of this is political. And I think it is, but when we look at the data in distrust, it's across political lines

Rae Woods (07:31):
And across every part of healthcare, right? It is true that people are still more likely to trust their doctor than they are a pharmaceutical company, but in every corner it's eroding.

Morghen Philippi (07:41):
In every corner. And I actually think that this is where we can tell a cautionary tale, because if you look back at the trust data from 10 years ago, you see folks thinking, oh yeah, folks don't really trust drug companies or health insurance companies and they have lost a lot of trust in the last 10 years, but it's not just drug companies, it's not just health insurance companies. We're seeing the trust drop between the public and doctors. We're seeing trust drop between the public and nurses. A profession we think of as being one of the most trusted professions in the United States, right? We're seeing that impact. And so, I think we shouldn't sit in this seat as strategic leaders and provider organizations and say, "Well, it's not about us." It is about us, it's about provider orgs.

(08:28):
And here I want to give an anecdote. I was actually talking to a provider leader, a strategic leader just this week, and they have a lot of patients who are oncology patients. And as I talked to them about patient distrust, they told me, they said, "I don't think that really applies to me. I'm in oncology."

Rae Woods (08:44):
Wow.

Morghen Philippi (08:44):
And another leader on the phone with them said, "Wait, we've actually been seeing this. We can't think we're exempt from this. It's coming for us and it's already showing up." And I would say to that oncology leader, now is the time to address it.

Rae Woods (09:54):
We could spend hours just talking about the complexity of the moment that we're in now, all of the layers that are adding to dissatisfaction, to distrust. And I want to name misinformation specifically as another variable here, which is something that we certainly saw after the pandemic. It's something that we've seen with the rise of the MAHA movement, that while it is rooted in a lot of things that health leaders agree with, addressing chronic disease, making sure that the healthcare institution is meeting the needs of real people, it also is associated with information that is not necessarily scientifically sound. And those decisions are then impacting institutions of healthcare, like the CDC.

Matt Cornner (10:29):
I think when we are ill or sick or we need healthcare, we're quite vulnerable, and we're trying to make sense of things, whether it is the health of our child or ourselves, and we're struggling with a lot of complex emotions. And there's more sources than ever to help us make our own sense of what's happening to us that is not science. So, we can go and find out whatever explanation feels most resonant with our own beliefs, even if the information that we find isn't grounded in anything.

(11:05):
There was a piece that was published in Nature Neuroscience recently, talking about the role that science must play in moving beyond a righteous conviction of its own information and data. And by the way, well-earned over the course of the last 100 years, life expectancy has doubled on the basis of scientific interventions. It's easy for that community to come to the conclusion of like, this is undeniable, why are we even having this conversation? But for people who are struggling to make sense of what's happening to them, happening to their family, and endless information out there that you can latch onto that will tell you it's not your fault, you didn't do anything wrong, your doctor is trying to get one over on you, or tell you you have something that you don't, or intervening on you when it doesn't need to. I think that there's a range of factors that are conspiring to give more voice or amplify misinformation in our healthcare establishment.

Morghen Philippi (12:01):
I think you can look at all of these outside forces, this entire moment in time and folks coming into the room with their providers and not feeling trust, feeling a sense of distrust. I think it's easy for providers to say, "How am I supposed to address that?"

Rae Woods (12:16):
And when you say providers, I think you're meaning the individual clinician themselves.

Morghen Philippi (12:19):
Individual clinicians, and honestly, even the hospital and health system strategy leaders I talk to. They say, "Yeah, we're seeing this distrust, but what am I supposed to do about it when it doesn't feel like my fault?" I think yes, a lot of this is the larger ecosystem, out of the control, the systemic issue this moment in time. And also, for all the amazing ways that providers and provider orgs are showing up for their patients and working to give their patients a better experience, I think we need to be honest that sometimes we as individuals, and we as providers, and we as healthcare stakeholders get it wrong. We do, and I think we have to address that to move on and get to this point of agency of saying, "Some of this distrust is outside of my control, and some of it is within my control." But the truth is it's walking in your door and it's going to impact your workforce and your bottom line and your clinical quality. And so, let's get to that point and start addressing it.

Rae Woods (13:15):
I think we're circling around our first major conclusion here, which is accepting that there is a rise in dissatisfaction, in distrust and misinformation. Knowing that yes, this is not your individual fault. There is this huge societal trend, but also that you play a role in addressing it. For the listeners who are not convinced yet, what's the business case?

Morghen Philippi (13:41):
My short answer is, distrust is lurking beneath every other business problem you're trying to address.

Rae Woods (13:48):
Like what?

Morghen Philippi (13:49):
It's proven in the literature. It's associated with things like willingness to get preventive care, like getting your mammogram, like getting vaccines, like going to see your PCP. Those are all things we would like as a healthcare ecosystem to have happen more.

Rae Woods (14:04):
This is the clinical quality angle, and I should say the cost angle. If you're not getting your preventative screenings and then you show up to the hospital a couple years later, a couple months later, and you're much more complex, if you're a health system, particularly one with revenue at risk, that's a problem. If you're a health plan whose job is to manage the risk of populations, that's a problem too.

Morghen Philippi (14:24):
Let's think about referrals, Rae. Referrals are a huge deal for provider organizations. If I trust my provider, I'm going to be more willing to listen to what they say, including when they say, "Hey, maybe you should go see this specialist." If I don't trust my provider, am I going to listen to that referral?

Rae Woods (14:41):
There's literal revenue in the door from a fee-for-service book of business if you're not trusting what the doctor says to do next, then you're not going to get the next book of business.

Morghen Philippi (14:49):
100%. And beyond this clinical quality piece, this referral piece, I think you can think about workforce. So, if I'm a provider and I'm now dealing with patients who don't trust me and who maybe show up in a more aggressive way in my office with a lot of really pointed questions, and we'll get straight to it, Rae, being distrustful associated with violence in the healthcare workforce. That's a problem for me as a provider.

Rae Woods (15:16):
Matt, you have conversations with health leaders every day about the complexity of the world in which they've decided to lead. Are you seeing health leaders accept this reality, accept this business case that Morghen's describing?

Matt Cornner (15:30):
Acceptance is such an interesting word. I think for a lot it is just difficult to even see it. I can see what I can control, I can maybe come to the conclusion of, gosh, these forces are bigger than me and my organization, what can I possibly do about it? And I think if we don't feel like it's directly our fault, then there is a degree to which we may not feel there's anything for us to do.

(15:54):
The conversation I often have with leaders is it may not be your fault or your doing, but it must be accounted for. And our interventions, our care, our systems do not account for mistrust, and because of that, we intervene in a way that breeds direct distrust, and that is the entire patient journey that Morghen's describing. The organization that figures out how to account for the distrust and mistrust that are already alive before either patient or provider walk into the room, is an organization that's going to make progress on value-based care, is going to make progress on patient access, on reducing cost, on improving staffing. So, we want to talk about trust as a strategy for competitive advantage.

Rae Woods (16:39):
Matt, you're talking about is harnessing an opportunity, which reminds me of a different business problem that health leaders are in right now. Everyone is trying to capture as much profitable commercial volumes as possible. It's interesting to think about if you set yourself up as the trusted partner, you might actually win that business, or somebody is going to win that employee relationship in a world where everyone is still struggling with turnover and workforce engagement and burnout.

Morghen Philippi (17:08):
I think here, we can just flip it back to what I said earlier, right? If distrust is leading to less preventative medicine, trust is leading to more preventative medicine. Trust is driving better clinical quality. Trust is building a better, more stable, less burnt out workforce, right? When you can make trust happen, good things happen within your business.

Rae Woods (17:30):
Okay, so there is both a risk and an opportunity here, as is so often true in business. How should healthcare leaders actually approach building back trust?

Morghen Philippi (17:40):
Think about all of this as a cycle, right? We can think about distrust and dissatisfaction. We can think about clinical quality, we can think about workforce. When you have distrust and dissatisfaction, it makes clinical quality worse. And when you have poor clinical quality, that's going to weigh on your providers. It is going to make them more burnt out, it is going to make the workforce more strained.

(18:03):
Let's think about a real concrete example here, measles outbreak 2025. You have distrust that's driving down uptake of the MMR vaccination. Not fun fact, right? 11 states have herd immunity for measles now.

Rae Woods (18:18):
Only 11 states?

Morghen Philippi (18:20):
Only 11 states. So we have distrust and dissatisfaction that's driving down MMR rates. That's going to drive down clinical quality. We have this measles outbreak, that's going to weigh on your providers. You have providers now seeing measles who never thought they'd see a measles case.

Rae Woods (18:34):
Who already have capacity constraint issues, who are already facing moral injury, who are already burnt out.

Morghen Philippi (18:39):
100%. And to be honest, if you think about this as a cycle, it can go the other way too. So you have those parents walking into the room with their pediatrician who are now less trusting of their provider, they're more aggressive, they're pushing back on that provider. That's going to directly weigh on those providers. Guess what? When you're a burnt out, more stressed provider, the care you give is going to decline in quality. That is simply how it's going to work. Now you have slightly worse care, worse clinical quality because your workforce is strained and burnt out. When patients see worse clinical quality, they're going to be less trusting of the system. All of these things feed.

Matt Cornner (19:13):
That cascade is so real, and it speaks to the headwinds that we face in trying to build or restore trust in any measure whatsoever. There's a piece that was published in Harvard Business Review about five or six years ago by Jack Zenger and Joseph Folkman about the three core elements of trust. Those three elements are competence, I trust you know what you're doing. Reliability, I trust that you'll do it every time that I can count on you. And the third is care, I trust that you genuinely care about me as a human being.

(19:44):
As we think about our systems, there are so many different opportunities for us to build a greater sense of competence and particularly reliability around our operating systems. Building care, we are healthcare, right? But the degree to which people don't feel genuinely cared for, the degree to which our systems make people feel like numbers or commodities where we're heads down during a clinical encounter and focused on patient throughput the way we might be focused on factory throughput, undermine our ability to build that trust when it's already at deficit walking in the door.

(20:21):
So, you think about what is trust building behavior? Certainly, we have to build this into our operating systems, but it's got to start sort of one encounter at a time. And the work that we might do in every relationship, workforce relationships, patient relationships to make people feel genuinely seen and cared for, and that's going to require some work. We're not set up for that.

Morghen Philippi (20:42):
Correct. Matt's actually getting to an important part, and it's something that gives me hope about all of this, is that you can actually support patients and trust and your workforce at the same time. Any of the providers I know, they want to be able to show up fully for their patients. They want to have the time to be able to sit down and see that patient and treat their whole person-

Rae Woods (21:03):
Yeah, that's why they got into healthcare.

Morghen Philippi (21:05):
... to build trust by enabling providers to do and deliver the care they want to deliver, the reason they got into healthcare. And that is going to inherently support patient trust, because they're going to see a provider who sees them, who hears them, who's able to deliver this care they're hoping for. And so I know that's a big ask, but it gives me hope that we can actually do those two things at the same time.

Matt Cornner (21:26):
And I agree with that, and I think the challenge with it is oftentimes the immediate benefits of, we'll call it a more caring model, will benefit the system, while the organization that makes those near-term investments is doing so perhaps at a greater cost. So, slowing down to go fast feels really important in terms of how we approach this, but there's going to have to be a really strong sense of conviction that this is aligned with what we're here to do in the first place and that there will be the business outcomes that we need in order for this to be a sustainable approach over time.

(22:03):
Right now, we've kind of gone down the road of, in order to make the money go around the block, we've got to see as many patients as possible as quickly as possible.

Rae Woods (22:11):
Yep, and it's valid. I empathize with that.

Matt Cornner (22:12):
Absolutely. This is not an easy ask. It is a huge leap of faith, and I think as with any strategy that confers a sustainable competitive advantage, it ain't easy, right? If it was, everyone would do it.

Rae Woods (22:26):
The operator in me is thinking about leading and lagging indicators, and it's probably pretty damn hard to measure improving trust, or that your specific actions are improving trust. But I do think you can measure and see quickly how are you supporting the workforce so that they can build back trust with patients, with community members, with the people that they serve.

Morghen Philippi (22:52):
It gets back to those connections I was talking about, Rae. How can you support their workforce? How can you support clinical quality? Because those are easier to measure than patient distrust. And so you have to work on those things and trust, no pun intended, that clinical quality and workforce are going to tie back into building trust.

Rae Woods (23:12):
So, when we think about supporting the workforce so that it can support patients, that really comes to the third C that you were describing, Matt, which is care. And you named, aptly, that providing care is not the same thing as caregiving. But I want to talk about the other two, which was about competency and consistency. Every single health leader listening to this is going, "I'm obviously competent," and we are not here to argue that. What is true though is how we translate that competence, how we translate that evidence to patients who are dissatisfied, who are distrustful, and who now have a wealth of information out there, not all of which is good. How do we start to wrap our hands around that challenge?

Matt Cornner (23:58):
Part of it is, we need to step into the perspective of those we're serving. From their standpoint, it may not matter to them that once I got in front of the oncology after a 45-day wait, brilliant, but I am assessing the 45 day wait. I am assessing whether or not this provider has any concern for whether I can afford this treatment, how long I'm going to be out of work, who's going to take care of my children when I am undergoing treatment. These are all elements of both competence and care, right? A sense that you care about me as a human being.

Rae Woods (24:36):
And you're describing the fact that quality to us is not necessarily the same as quality to them, and then there's also actually trying to communicate the clinical quality we care about means, what the evidence we care about means. I'm not convinced that we've done a good job of communicating science and evidence in a way that builds back trust, and I actually fear that we've communicated in a way that pushes folks away.

Matt Cornner (25:02):
I mean, I think you could assess it in a number of different ways. Does the assertion of evidence make patients at times feel unheard? So to the extent that we keep solving other people's doubts and mistrust with, I'm just going to keep hammering away at the clinical or technical evidence, then we're not going to actually get the outcome that we need.

Rae Woods (25:24):
Which by the way, is a lesson that I hope health leaders have actually already learned. Go with me on this. We may not have learned effectively that just communicating the data, the answers to the public is going to get them to believe us or change their behavior. But you know what I hope we have learned, is that by just communicating raw numbers to doctors doesn't change their behavior.

Matt Cornner (25:46):
Yeah, this isn't our first rodeo. When we have attempted to implement something like for instance, care variation, reduction or care standards, we often start with those for which the clinical evidence is most powerful and overwhelming.

Rae Woods (26:00):
Or you communicate to the poorest performers first.

Matt Cornner (26:03):
Right. And to the extent that we still see poor uptake, we continue to try to solve that problem by doubling down on the data. And there are a whole host of motivators beneath the surface that we aren't accounting for, and they include things like, I don't believe that a clinical protocol is superior to my clinical judgment.

Rae Woods (26:26):
Yes, yes, exactly.

Matt Cornner (26:27):
But they're not going to tell you that, right?

Rae Woods (26:29):
Yes.

Matt Cornner (26:29):
Just as a patient isn't going to tell you, "For me to go on hypertension medication makes me feel like a failure. Therefore, I may not pick up the prescription or I may pick it up but not take it." I mean, it's one of the more compelling data points. Seven out of patients when told, "If you do not meaningfully change your lifestyle in order to lengthen your lifespan," do not meaningfully change their lifestyle. We're not accounting for those things. What we're doing is we're saying, "Here's the treatment. It's up to you whether you do it or not. I did my job." And good, but what is the impact of that on outcomes, on care outcomes and results?

Rae Woods (27:05):
What I'm hearing you say, Matt, is that overcoming distrust isn't about merely trying to prove that you are more right.

(27:12):
Let's talk about what you do want listeners to do next. I want to give each of you a chance to speak directly to folks and give them an action step. Morghen, I want to start with you. What's the one thing you want leaders listening to this conversation to do next?

Morghen Philippi (27:26):
First step is start bringing trust and distrust into your strategy conversations, which I hope our conversation today convinced you to do. So when you're talking about your strategic objectives for 2026 and beyond, ask, how is trust at play here? Okay, that's step number one.

(27:43):
Step number two, now that it's in your conversations, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to address it? This goes back to what I said. Support people, support your patients, and support your workforce. And there are lots of ways right now to actually do both of those at the same time.

Rae Woods (28:00):
Matt?

Matt Cornner (28:01):
I'll go even more granular. Start in your relationships. Really take stock of all of the critical relationships in your personal and professional eyes and what the state of trust may be. And just start practicing trust building behavior, and that may be some combination of competence, consistency, care. In that particular study of all of those three forces, care was most compelling. Care was the only one that could stand alone. You could be short on competence and reliability or competence and consistency, but if the person with whom you are engaging genuinely believes that you care about them as a human being, the amount of grace that confers the room to get it right when you know that inevitably we're going to probably get it wrong, is substantial. So, I think for the leaders listening to this, just take stock of, what does trust look like around you right now, and where are there opportunities to build greater trust?

(28:55):
I'll just put a finer point on the idea that this can't be a marketing strategy conversation. Right?

Rae Woods (28:59):
Oh my goodness, yes.

Matt Cornner (29:00):
We need to build this into the way that we care for people. This is operations. This is how we engage with patients, and then how we engage with our workforce. And then finally, as time goes on, we need to think about how do we scale trust, knowing that the headwinds are going to continue to be against us?

Rae Woods (29:19):
Well, Matt, Morghen, thanks so much for coming on Radio Advisory.

Matt Cornner (29:24):
Thanks, Rae. Always a pleasure.

Morghen Philippi (29:26):
Thanks, Rae.

Rae Woods (29:30):
If there's one thing I want you to take away from this conversation, it's that this problem is a big one. In fact, it is too big of a problem for us to fail. Like Matt said, addressing rising distrust, addressing misinformation, addressing dissatisfaction has to be in everything that we do. In our strategy, in our operations, in the way that we deploy our workforce, in the way that we deploy our technology. But we want you to start with your relationships.

(29:59):
In next week's episode, we're going to tell you exactly how to build trust when clinicians are communicating with patients directly, because remember, as always, we're here to help.

Abby Burns (30:14):
Here's what our Advisory Board research team is watching this week. Medicare sequestration is off the table. In the legislation that reopened the federal government, Congress waived budget rules that would've otherwise implemented a 4% cut on Medicare reimbursement via PAYGO sequestration. That would mean about $500 billion worth of cuts to Medicare reimbursement over the next decade or so, intended to help offset the $3.4 trillion deficit increase that will result from the One Big Beautiful Bill Act over a similar timeframe.

(30:48):
This is good news for providers who participate in Medicare. The Statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act of 2010, also called PAYGO, is supposed to trigger an automatic across the board 4% cut to Medicare reimbursement when new legislation results in certain levels of deficit spending. In this case, the federal government is sidestepping that 4% cut by resetting the executive branch's deficit scorecard to zero for the remainder of 2025. Any new legislation passed in 2026 or beyond that significantly raises the deficit could be subject to PAYGO. That said, PAYGO has been continuously triggered since it was passed in 2010, but Congress has intervened to prevent that sequestration from taking effect out of concern for providers' financial stability.

(31:31):
To be clear, there are currently sequestration cuts in effect, and there have been since 2011. The Budget Control Act of 2011 triggered a different 2% across the board cut to Medicare reimbursement to last from 2013 to 2032. Any new cuts enacted would be on top of that 2%. So, if you're thinking to yourself, hey, that means we were just staring down the barrel of a 6% shave off Medicare reimbursement, you're correct. But because Congress waived PAYGO for this year, that's not happening, which again is a relief for providers, given the many pressures that are pushing down on your finances right now. At the very least for the time being, you can strike this one off your list.

Rae Woods (32:16):
If you like Radio Advisory, please share it with your networks, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave a rating and a review. Radio Advisory is a production of Advisory Board. This episode was produced by me, Rae Woods, as well as Abby Burns, Chloe Bakst, and Atticus Raasch. The episode was edited by Katy Anderson, with technical support provided by Dan Tayag, Chris Phelps, and Joe Shrum. Additional support was provided by Leanne Elston and Erin Collins. We'll be back with more on this very big problem next week.