00:00:00.44 Michael Oh yeah. 00:00:02.18 Mark McCracken There we go. You see, you make a signed every time. 00:00:04.27 Michael That's a weird sound wasn't it? 00:00:04.98 Mark McCracken It's like an old man. It's like, Oh, yeah. 00:00:06.95 Michael Oh yeah. I am an old man, I am an old man now so. 00:00:10.89 Mark McCracken Okay. far Yeah. How have you been? 00:00:12.35 Michael I would, yeah, been alright. I said on on the old man, sorry I'm just pulling this bit. Oh yeah. 00:00:18.00 Mark McCracken Because you can't break out of account anymore. 00:00:18.19 Michael ah was there I was i was um ah was walking past a cafe, I walked into a cafe on on Sunday and there's a two two 00:00:25.32 Mark McCracken That's good. 00:00:29.99 Michael two ladies outside girls having a chat outside the cafe as I go in I head one and go he was so old he was like in his 40s or something I was like I was so close just stopping and just going hey hey I'm in my 40s yeah yeah yeah so when you're asking how I'm going kind of like that like every day every day and you how are you 00:00:41.60 Mark McCracken that turn around and be like, how dare you? And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're old, so you're old. 00:00:54.33 Mark McCracken Yeah, i okay. I've just, yeah, yeah, good, I've just cracked open this ah blood orange cider, which I've never had before because my girlfriend gets them and she drinks them and I'm like, okay, well, I won't have that. 00:01:00.72 Michael Oh, nice. 00:01:05.80 Mark McCracken And I've never tried it before and that's just one taste, that's really, really good, yeah. 00:01:05.86 Michael Yeah. 00:01:08.75 Michael Very good. 00:01:10.57 Mark McCracken ah Yeah, good, good, had a busy weekend, mother was over and then she's visiting from Thursday until this evening, yeah. 00:01:16.53 Michael I'm making those weird sounds again. 00:01:18.00 Mark McCracken Yeah, you are, what is it, a Diet Coke or are you a woman? 00:01:18.14 Michael Nothing's good. Nothing's good with your mom. This is my, uh, this is my city, a cake chock fudge cake style from Hamilton. 00:01:25.37 Mark McCracken Chocolate fudge cake stout. 00:01:27.13 Michael It's like a proper dessert. Yeah. 00:01:28.69 Mark McCracken Very nice, lovely. 00:01:29.70 Michael Oh, that's really nice. All right, and no more sounds. I have to mute mute myself. 00:01:32.35 Mark McCracken All right, no more signs. 00:01:33.46 Michael It's so expressive. 00:01:33.71 Mark McCracken I'm gonna have to cut all of that, yeah. 00:01:34.95 Michael Yeah. 00:01:35.89 Mark McCracken Yeah, it seems all of our guests have mugged us off. They're all busy. We've had a great deal of people say, yeah, yeah, I'll come on a podcast, but not until next year. I've been scraping. 00:01:43.66 Michael this Is this it now? Have we peaked? 00:01:45.71 Mark McCracken Yeah, we've picked number four, and that's us, we've picked. 00:01:45.74 Michael Are we done? It's over. 00:01:49.37 Mark McCracken I stooped as low as asking my mother. She said, nope. 00:01:52.30 Michael She said no. 00:01:52.85 Mark McCracken And then I stooped. 00:01:53.39 Michael She even let you down. 00:01:54.57 Mark McCracken yeah ah 00:01:54.65 Michael Your own mum was like no. 00:01:56.14 Mark McCracken Yeah, she said, and I can't be doing that there anymore. No, she was she she was she was maybe keen, but she was like, I gotta get permission, first of all, before I talk about NHS. 00:02:02.04 Michael Oh, a tree, yeah. 00:02:03.02 Mark McCracken She may have one or two controversial views that are, you know, her own. um And then I stooped a little lower and I asked my local, no not my dog, I asked my local bar man who said he was busy. 00:02:06.21 Michael Yeah, yeah. Your dog. 00:02:15.90 Mark McCracken Said he was busy, Billy, but maybe next time. 00:02:17.77 Michael just yeah really Are you going to give context? 00:02:19.52 Mark McCracken Yeah, maybe next time. So he did he did say yes. He's just hasn't got the time. So we'll find out. 00:02:24.42 Michael You can just ask a random person, work at the bar. 00:02:25.27 Mark McCracken Am I going to give context? No, that's it. Now I'm just going to keep going around all of the Crouch End area. 00:02:27.24 Michael That's it. Just anyone, just... 00:02:30.03 Mark McCracken Anybody want to be in a podcast? 00:02:33.75 Mark McCracken Yeah, no, he's looking to yeah he's looking to get into tech. He wants to get his first job. 00:02:36.96 Michael Yeah, I've got so many so many questions. 00:02:38.02 Mark McCracken He wants to get out of the bartending gig. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I want to know, like, ah it's not a cycle. Yeah, that sounds interesting. What are you up to? But like, how would you approach it today if you were starting off? 00:02:45.89 Michael Yeah. 00:02:48.08 Mark McCracken So we'll have a lot of questions for him. 00:02:50.09 Michael i I need to make sure I don't scare him off as well. 00:02:50.19 Mark McCracken I asked a recruiter pal as well. Don't scare him off. Yeah, he said, you you guys know a lot more about tech than me. And I thought, that's what I think about Michael. He knows everything. 00:02:58.01 Michael No, no, no, I was just thinking I just will come to this about stuff I read, but I'll talk about today and then then I don't have scaring with it next week 00:03:02.07 Mark McCracken yeah um Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:06.73 Michael whatever it is. Yeah. 00:03:11.02 Mark McCracken I've got a bit of news I think is going to happen. Not not not not not that but I've seen it yet. 00:03:15.65 Michael Okay. 00:03:16.23 Mark McCracken But I am certain that by this time next week, we'll have seen AI Santa. So I did some googling, looking for it. 00:03:20.92 Michael Oh yeah. 00:03:24.95 Mark McCracken And I just got like customized video messages that you can you can do a custom face time with your kid. 00:03:29.89 Michael Yes. Yes. This is, this is as a dad, this is a, 00:03:32.70 Mark McCracken That's like really bizarre. Right up your street. 00:03:35.99 Michael i think this is okay until it goes because these these ai things don't they they go wrong don't they we talked about this didn't we when they yeah don't want to stick my kids in front of ai santa and it starts like yeah i don't want them to be a beast tester for ai santa no one does 00:03:42.03 Mark McCracken Well, they can do. Yeah, they certainly can do if you're gonna, As long as it's not made by Gemini, right? 00:03:52.30 Mark McCracken Yeah. um But you you basically put in a very, very small number of parameters. So I said I'll have, I didn't i didn't i didn't read the terms in condition before I started off. I just went straight into it and said, here's the form. 00:04:04.59 Mark McCracken Give us the name of the person. This is a little boy, or little girl, or normal person. 00:04:06.03 Michael Yeah. 00:04:08.84 Michael Yeah. 00:04:09.61 Mark McCracken I said, little boy. Called, and I said, Lenny, for the dog. 00:04:13.21 Michael Okay. 00:04:14.28 Mark McCracken By the time I got to the end, I realized it was it's going to be a conversation. I was like, well, he's not going to talk back much, is he? If he's a dog. 00:04:22.38 Michael I must, like I must admit, actually, I went into, uh, yeah. 00:04:22.39 Mark McCracken um But it asks for a very small number of parameters. But so surely that's like, you don't even need AI for that. as If you want it to be so safe, if you can only have like three parameters. You want to just record the video and have somebody dub over it. 00:04:31.43 Michael Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. i was I was gonna say I kind of feel like I feel like I was definitely a skeptic of AI and then we had that mitten chat was really good. 00:04:41.59 Mark McCracken Yeah, and you've been a convert ever since? 00:04:42.17 Michael I actually really was completely blown over by that. So maybe I'm just like one old man shouting at clouds and I'm like, now I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:04:45.99 Mark McCracken Mmm. 00:04:49.31 Mark McCracken Yep. 00:04:51.45 Michael So I need to play with it more. 00:04:51.81 Mark McCracken Shiting in public lights. 00:04:52.33 Michael So yeah, exactly. Good gag. 00:04:55.63 Mark McCracken Oh yeah, that was shocking last week. 00:04:56.37 Michael Can't believe you missed the so soap, soap API gag. Just spending all night thinking about it. 00:04:59.71 Mark McCracken Yeah, we had the... Yeah, the API dishwasher. We didn't ask if it was a SOAP API. Shocking. um I tried an RSS reader for the first time. I'm now somebody that's reading more news than I've been reading before. 00:05:09.79 Michael Okay. Yeah. 00:05:11.61 Mark McCracken I feel like this is right up your street. You're RSSing all the time. 00:05:14.87 Michael Yeah. 00:05:15.15 Mark McCracken You're always like, core is where's the best RSS feeds? 00:05:15.52 Michael Let's just wait until we get onto the subs. 00:05:17.52 Mark McCracken Just just wait. 00:05:18.44 Michael Yeah. 00:05:19.19 Mark McCracken um But yeah, I tried two. One of them was ah as it was it was a macOS thing called, I forgot what it's called already. 00:05:22.20 Michael Okay. 00:05:26.78 Mark McCracken feeder or something, or reader or feeder, something like that. 00:05:26.88 Michael Okay. Feedly. 00:05:29.90 Mark McCracken Yeah, maybe it was yellow. 00:05:31.02 Michael Green is yellow. 00:05:32.30 Mark McCracken It was yellow. 00:05:33.18 Michael Okay. 00:05:33.78 Mark McCracken So I can find it. It's not hush. Night shift. No popcorn. Tips. No. That's all the yellow things. I must have binned it off already. 00:05:40.47 Michael Okay. 00:05:41.80 Mark McCracken But it wanted to pay a subscription after you got past 10. And I thought that was ridiculously low. 00:05:46.11 Michael It's a bit harsh, isn't it? 00:05:47.52 Mark McCracken Yeah, very low. 00:05:47.59 Michael Oh, okay. 00:05:48.42 Mark McCracken So I said no. And I found an open source thing called 00:05:49.37 Michael Yep. 00:05:52.44 Mark McCracken something beginning with that. 00:05:55.19 Michael Surprised, okay. 00:05:55.19 Mark McCracken Net News Wire. And being the first time I've discovered RSS feed, I've now got loads of RSS feeds. 00:06:03.35 Michael This was massive. 00:06:03.49 Mark McCracken Must have 20 back in the day. 00:06:03.99 Michael This was really big. Our accessories were massive back in the day, weren't they? Google news and sp surprised Apple doesn't have a, 00:06:10.92 Mark McCracken Well, they've basically got Apple News, so what do you need an ah RSS feed for? 00:06:12.34 Michael Okay. Yeah. 00:06:14.68 Mark McCracken and But I'm like, well, I've got these custom things. And I just thought now is the time to learn about but RSS feeds as they are probably dying on the internet. And it's time for me to get involved. 00:06:21.64 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:22.46 Mark McCracken Yeah. But some blogs have got them and I find a bunch of stuff. So yeah, ne Net News Wire was a pretty decent bunch of news. 00:06:28.82 Michael So someone I'm sure has listened to a podcast and basically podcasts work the same way as RSS feeds. I think someone said in terms of how they get indexed by, by the, yeah. 00:06:35.29 Mark McCracken Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, when when we submit our podcast, it just goes, I think it's just an ah RSS feed. 00:06:38.50 Michael yeah 00:06:42.07 Mark McCracken So Apple Podcasts and Spotify just look at that feed and says like, oh yeah, there's a thing. 00:06:42.12 Michael Yeah, everything picks it up. Yeah. 00:06:45.68 Mark McCracken You've updated it. Anyway, should we get to our topics? 00:06:47.83 Michael Cool. Yeah, let's do it. 00:06:50.82 Mark McCracken I want to talk about ah diagrams. So specific technical diagrams. 00:06:53.01 Michael Okay. 00:06:54.87 Mark McCracken So, you know, there's always always was whiteboarding and whatnot, but technical diagrams. 00:06:58.12 Michael this 00:06:59.27 Mark McCracken And it gets to the point when you've decided, oh, we'll have to draw this. I'm just interested in what that process looks like and is it any good and is it worthwhile because I've recently been through, well I came in and joined a project recently and I was looking at some of the artefacts they'd generated so far and they had some diagrams here and there but the standard diagram was kind of part point and I was like what is this diagram? 00:07:15.62 Michael Yeah. Okay. 00:07:23.74 Mark McCracken So at at at a certain point in the past I I don't want to say berated, but that's just because I like to think of myself as a nice person. 00:07:29.37 Michael Okay. 00:07:31.89 Mark McCracken I probably did berate somebody at some point for for having a diagram in PowerPoint that I thought wasn't quite up to scratch. 00:07:33.39 Michael Yeah. 00:07:36.76 Mark McCracken um So I decided to come up with some rules for what would constitute a good diagram. 00:07:41.44 Michael yeah 00:07:42.15 Mark McCracken um A thing cannot be disconnected from everything else. There's no reason for a thing to be on a diagram if it's not connected to the rest of the stuff. 00:07:45.85 Michael Mm hmm. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. 00:07:49.28 Mark McCracken All of the diagrams should have arrows on them. 00:07:51.59 Michael Makes sense. 00:07:51.87 Mark McCracken arrows should be labeled. 00:07:51.99 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:53.56 Mark McCracken It should have a label. 00:07:54.34 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:54.92 Mark McCracken That's about as far as I got, really. I said, you've got to have at least these things. 00:07:56.47 Michael This is pretty decent start. 00:07:58.50 Mark McCracken Yeah, but i mean there was there was a lot of submissions that that didn't quite meet that criteria. um So it was you know you think you start low, and turns out starting low is the perfect place to start, because before I get into like color schemes and consistency, whoa, whoa, hold it there. 00:08:11.71 Michael Yeah. Icon packs in there. to do to you Have you been at a place where people use them, where someone's like, I want a UML diagram of this, or does that happen, or? 00:08:23.46 Mark McCracken UML diagrams, definitely not. 00:08:25.78 Michael No. 00:08:26.65 Mark McCracken Nobody wants to see that level of detail in a diagram because I just think the amount of time that you're going to spend making it, I think so. 00:08:31.06 Michael Is it is it a dying something from a dying age, do you think? Do you think this is like? 00:08:35.99 Mark McCracken the amount of time that you're The amount of value you're going to get from it in future after you've built it versus f upfront effort in doing it is kind of like 00:08:41.03 Michael Yeah, yeah. 00:08:46.66 Mark McCracken probably never get a job after this ever again, but lineage, like like database lineage, right? 00:08:49.66 Michael Yeah. Yeah. iceland okay Yeah. 00:08:51.77 Mark McCracken So you're like, you're doing your big data warehouse stuff and you've got, you know, your source tables that come from whatever apps and then the travels through the CTL process and it gets to the end. 00:08:51.94 Michael Yeah. 00:08:55.88 Michael yeah 00:08:59.67 Mark McCracken I'm like, Oh, we've got to have the lineage. 00:08:59.94 Michael yeah 00:09:01.04 Mark McCracken Gotta to have the lineage. I'm like, yeah, okay. Like you gotta to have the lineage if there's a problem. because you want to maybe work it out. 00:09:07.43 Michael yeah 00:09:08.96 Mark McCracken Or if you're joining and you really need it, maybe it'll be handy. But the amount of effort you're going to put into getting the lineage and presenting it nicely in a way that really, really works. I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of effort. 00:09:19.95 Mark McCracken Wouldn't it be easier to just get the and lineage on demand rather than pre-compiled lineage, if you see what I mean? 00:09:24.73 Michael Okay. 00:09:27.56 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:09:28.80 Mark McCracken So in the see and the same sense, like diagrams. some like For UML diagrams, definitely not. Nobody's ever requested that level of detail. 00:09:35.26 Michael Yeah. So I, I, um, I've never been a big, big, maybe I should have been like a big architect diagram person, but, um, a lot of people independently recently have, and this is not an architecture diagram thing at all. 00:09:35.71 Mark McCracken have 00:09:48.60 Michael Um, it's kind of draw. 00:09:51.63 Mark McCracken It looks kind of handwritten. 00:09:52.74 Michael kind of draw So it's ah it's a browser-based tool. And and it's it's pretty basic. um you know You've got boxes and lines that has this kind of effect that makes it look quite cool. 00:10:06.78 Michael And and yeah, it looks kind of handwritten. And it looks really nice, because I think most most like most people are visual people. 00:10:16.05 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:10:16.61 Michael like Most people want to see something. You know when you're trying to explain it, and you're like blah, blah, blah, and then this, and then that goes to there, and that, and that does that. 00:10:21.57 Mark McCracken Yeah, 00:10:22.46 Michael think some people just want to kind of see that and um there's some probably some brain status about how visual we are and stuff and they see it and they're like yeah yeah yeah yeah 00:10:29.91 Mark McCracken Yeah. So I've been having exactly that recently, where we've got relatively, we're closer to the start of a project than the end of the whole thing being like, right, this is now live and business as usual, closer to the start than the end, and drawing a lot of diagrams. 00:10:48.51 Mark McCracken When you have conversations over teams and you can see the person, that's all good and well, but you're having an argument and you with a point where you disagree, like having the diagram is so much more useful and so much faster to like get the point across because people just can't understand complicated concepts. 00:10:58.50 Michael Yeah, yeah. 00:11:05.07 Mark McCracken If you're just talking on the phone, you need something a bit more tangible. 00:11:07.26 Michael Yeah, it helps the chat. It kind of helps the chat going on, doesn't it? 00:11:10.40 Mark McCracken Yeah, for sure. 00:11:10.58 Michael If you're going to go, it kind of looks like this and then. 00:11:12.48 Mark McCracken Yeah, so like, I've been going really deep into, well, not really deep, it's not that deep, ah Microsoft Visio and using that a lot. 00:11:14.16 Michael Go on. 00:11:19.96 Michael Okay. 00:11:21.59 Mark McCracken So so we had we had some um third party consultants doing some stuff, right? 00:11:26.11 Michael it 00:11:27.66 Mark McCracken And they will come up with some diagrams and everybody's favorite, I think it's Lucid chart. 00:11:32.82 Michael Yeah, at least it, yeah. 00:11:33.67 Mark McCracken that thing and it's kind of like in in the no man's land of diagrams it was the google diagrams thing which they really tried to not get you to use in fact i think they might have shut that down because of course they have um another one bites the dust um so that's kind of gone um so the reason i really wanted them to use microsoft drawing stuff was because like permission stuff so when you're working with like third party people and are they using 00:11:37.52 Michael Okay. 00:11:45.46 Michael Another one's the list of, ah yeah. 00:11:59.84 Mark McCracken your organization's teams account or they're using their own organization's teams account and sharing stuff across SharePoint. 00:11:59.92 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:05.45 Mark McCracken Like that's a whole nightmare in and of itself of getting somebody onboarded. And I said, forget this whole lucid chart where you just pass around the chart and you just email it around everyone. This is like olden days of Excel times. 00:12:13.31 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:12:15.68 Mark McCracken Let's try to not do that. ah How did the finance people ever get onto like fully online Excel. like That's great. How they did that, I don't know, because they just love emailing Excels are around. 00:12:25.83 Michael yeah 00:12:26.91 Mark McCracken But it was it was like that. It was like that. People were just email emailing around this Visio chart, and I'm like, this this this has got to be better. 00:12:32.54 Michael This change, 2024 guys. 00:12:33.66 Mark McCracken So I wanted to Yeah, exactly. So I wanted, I wanted them to stick to Microsoft toolset. 00:12:35.90 Michael Yeah. 00:12:39.32 Mark McCracken So I said, we're going to either use whiteboard or we're going to use the other, the Visio professional diagramming thing. 00:12:45.28 Michael Yeah. 00:12:46.50 Mark McCracken So I came up with a strategy of, why don't we just do it on the whiteboard to start with, we'll draw like day one, we'll just draw some stuff and get our understanding. 00:12:54.60 Michael the The one that's built into Teams, the one that you can go and jump into, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:54.64 Mark McCracken But after we've, Yeah, the one that's like, you just you just click the button and you draw with your pen and it comes out looking like much, much, much, much, much more hand made than a Scala draw. You're like, oh wow, hand me about a four-year-old. 00:13:03.72 Michael Yeah. I can't draw. 00:13:06.43 Mark McCracken Yeah, can't draw with a mouse. 00:13:07.36 Michael Yeah. 00:13:08.28 Mark McCracken It's even worse using a trackpad. It's like, you're not drawing anything on that. 00:13:10.98 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:11.49 Mark McCracken um So do that. And you spend, your I don't know, we we had maybe 15, 10, maybe more than 10 sessions on this with like eight people involved. And you draw out some stuff, and like right that's what we think it's like. 00:13:24.11 Mark McCracken And people talk about it, and they argue, and it's discrete. 00:13:24.92 Michael Hmm. 00:13:26.15 Mark McCracken After the end of session one, you say, right, great. We're done with that session. We've all discussed some stuff. Now go away and do it, not on a whiteboard, but do it in the nice Visio stuff. And they do it with, you know, they do it great. 00:13:37.03 Michael Yeah. 00:13:37.97 Mark McCracken And then we take a screenshot of what we got in Visio, and paste it into the whiteboard, and go back in, right. Session two, here's our our understanding. Let's draw over some use cases of this, and see, do those flows work. 00:13:48.43 Mark McCracken And then you iterate through it. and you break it again, and you get people's understanding all down on a page. And we went through this literally 10 times. And the diagram itself like you uncovered maybe six different fundamental things that people hadn't agreed on. So the fancy diagram in Visio really only goes through about six iterations. But we did 10 different sessions, drawing over it all the time. And it does kind of go back and forth between scribbling, which feels a lot more natural. And you've got nice boxes with square edges. And then you've got people's hand drawn crap. 00:14:17.43 Mark McCracken And then towards the end, you're like, OK, we're pretty confident in this video diagram. So that was a really nice way to iterate over it, because people were kind of like getting familiar with it, and they see the process going through. 00:14:26.71 Michael Yeah. 00:14:27.48 Mark McCracken And then at the end, um the thing the other thing that I really liked about this was layers. I've become a huge fan, a huge, huge fan of like layers in a diagram. 00:14:38.59 Mark McCracken So you've got your very base layer. And I would have all the layers over to the right and be like, right, I'm going to walk you through this diagram. And you start off with like just the very most basic underlying component, like Google Cloud Platform exists and other stuff exists. 00:14:44.11 Michael Yeah. 00:14:50.91 Mark McCracken And then you say, here's the stuff that lives in Google Cloud Platform and the stuff that lives over here. And here you add another layer on top of it to as you're walking them through it. 00:14:56.17 Michael Yeah, that's pretty good. 00:14:58.67 Mark McCracken It's been fantastic. like the the the the conversations we've had have gone from we're all disagreeing quite a lot to when I say, right, I want to explain how I think about this area and what I'm expecting, then I sort of start from the bottom, build your way up and see the assumptions. 00:15:07.10 Michael Yeah. 00:15:14.33 Michael Yeah. 00:15:15.64 Mark McCracken And then either at the end, they're like, yes, I think I agree with all of that or somebody else will say no. 00:15:20.24 Michael Yeah. 00:15:21.62 Mark McCracken And then we get straight to the point of where we disagree and we'll draw some other alternatives and then whiteboard it. 00:15:23.54 Michael Yeah. Click, click. Yeah, get some layers down. That's really good. i When you were saying that, I was thinking, have you ever um have you ever worked with any observability tool that does like tracing? 00:15:28.04 Mark McCracken I've been loving that. 00:15:37.61 Mark McCracken I've used Jaeger. Is that what it's called? 00:15:39.35 Michael OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 00:15:41.76 Mark McCracken Oh, wow. 00:15:46.59 Michael and yes we're using using diara um and it's got a view called smartscape 00:15:52.13 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:15:52.66 Michael and and smartscape Because tracing is going on, you can you can see the relationship between things. 00:15:56.56 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:16:01.08 Michael ah you don't have to go in you You don't have to go in and go, that app talks to that app. 00:16:01.24 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:16:04.75 Michael And then, obviously, like the the next day, someone changes it. 00:16:05.88 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:16:07.19 Michael And it it shows all those things. And it shows the flows of data between this app to this message queue. And then something else picks it up. And then they store it in a DB. 00:16:16.52 Mark McCracken Yeah. So have you, have you used, have you, have you used that with this deal when you've got like service mesh stuff? 00:16:19.67 Michael they 00:16:22.53 Michael no Not with Istio, but I guess that would be the next, but what as one what I was kind of thinking like, you know, if they they already, you know, that there's a view on, on Dynatrace where, you know, you can, you can tie these things to like a data center, but, but, you know, why not overlay it? 00:16:25.80 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:16:38.90 Michael That could almost be like a nice, it could almost be like a nice plugin, right? Why not overlay? Cause if you could take that stuff and overlay Kubernetes clusters, you know, clouds, availability zones, you've you've suddenly got this, 00:16:43.90 Mark McCracken ah On your diagram. 00:16:50.02 Mark McCracken Yeah. Well, I think it's not like some of the some of the idea behind Istio because when i when I first seen Istio, well, i first seen it and I started using it a bit and I was like, okay, great. 00:16:51.92 Michael Living diagram, so. 00:17:00.72 Michael Yeah. 00:17:01.79 Mark McCracken I've i've done it for my cluster. Now can we connect it to the other stuff? Because I thought a ah lot of the benefit with of this was going to be the proxy. 00:17:05.94 Michael Okay, 00:17:08.70 Mark McCracken So you can extend your service mesh to something that lives outside of your normal cluster, your normal public cloud. 00:17:13.16 Michael okay great yeah. 00:17:14.38 Mark McCracken and put it over here and then it's all in the one thing. But in practice, I find that people put Istio in one cluster and then they put a different Istio in another cluster because they don't do the hard bit of working out too how do we pair these two things together, which is not, I mean, it's not super intuitive, but you know, you watch a few hours of videos, you try some stuff, you test it out and then get going. 00:17:17.51 Michael Yeah. 00:17:26.18 Michael Yeah. 00:17:31.26 Michael Yeah. 00:17:32.73 Mark McCracken So it's not rocket science really. 00:17:34.22 Michael so So Google, because you're a big GCP person, don't you? 00:17:36.89 Mark McCracken Love it. 00:17:38.84 Michael Just Google has some instant integration, right? That it's built in, or? 00:17:42.14 Mark McCracken Yeah, but they're very much going to sell it like Anthos. 00:17:44.55 Michael Okay. 00:17:45.32 Mark McCracken so they've they've 00:17:46.22 Michael Yeah, so this is it, isn't it? Like, yeah. 00:17:47.57 Mark McCracken Yeah, so so I mean, from my perspective, that they they got GKE working great. 00:17:52.65 Michael Mm-hmm, yeah. 00:17:53.63 Mark McCracken And then they're like, OK, well, we can do the Istio thing great. But I think Google, by that point, felt like they'd given too much away with Kubernetes. 00:18:01.80 Michael okay yeah especially as we're not making as much money as the other ones yeah 00:18:01.94 Mark McCracken Like, it was so open source that microsoft like Microsoft and AWS could also have their equivalent of GKE straight away. So I think with Istio, they were like, hmm, can we try not to give so much of it away? 00:18:14.91 Mark McCracken But they ultimately open sourced it all. but Yeah. um And they've got an aunt they've got basically taken a lot of the ideas out of that. Like there's an Anthos service manager, I think. 00:18:27.57 Mark McCracken There's there's a bunch of different Anthos-y things that are like service config. So doing GitOps with your Kubernetes stuff. 00:18:32.52 Michael Yeah, yeah, because that's Google Cloud config connector, right? 00:18:33.67 Mark McCracken They basically, yeah. 00:18:36.57 Mark McCracken e that That was a wee bit different. 00:18:37.28 Michael No, I get them names mixed up. Yeah. 00:18:38.79 Mark McCracken That's like that like terraform for your infrastructure, but as a Kubernetes resource, rather than as a like you've run this one time and you run it again at your next CI CD, it's more like monitoring. 00:18:39.30 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:18:48.61 Michael yeah 00:18:50.76 Mark McCracken In the same way that Kubernetes would monitor a pod, not a pod, but a deployment to make sure enough things exist in it, it'll monitor your cloud and say, this bucket this GCP bucket needs to exist. 00:18:56.14 Michael yeah ah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:19:01.31 Mark McCracken um 00:19:01.57 Michael Yeah. 00:19:01.82 Mark McCracken Which I'm always like, well, isn't the value of that in the data rather than in the thing existing? Like, what's the point of saying I definitely want this bucket to exist if the bucket accidentally gets wiped? 00:19:08.67 Michael you Yeah. 00:19:12.93 Mark McCracken And then you're like, oh, no, we recreated it. That's almost worse because you go back and you're like, oh, the bucket's here. 00:19:16.64 Michael Yeah. 00:19:17.35 Mark McCracken Why is the bucket utterly empty? 00:19:17.78 Michael Where's my stuff? 00:19:19.54 Mark McCracken Or my database is here and it's working just fine, but why is it completely empty? That'd be... Quite a nightmare, but yeah. Um, so I'm just wondering, like, do people, I dunno, do you look at diagrams a lot on your current day-to-day job? 00:19:30.93 Mark McCracken Do people like bring up diagrams for like approvals for stuff? 00:19:31.12 Michael So I, we, we, he they bring them up in a very formal context. So so um yeah, 00:19:42.16 Michael approvals for stuff, which which I think makes sense, right? 00:19:42.32 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:19:44.14 Michael Like, you don't want to you don't want to kind of throw some completely different thing out there. 00:19:44.38 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:19:47.91 Michael And I'd probably feel a bit silly going to like a technical design authority and going, here's my Excalibur, it looks a bit hand-drawn, but like, what the fuck? 00:19:51.89 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:19:55.32 Michael Go away, Joker. 00:19:56.21 Mark McCracken But people are still happy to come with their PowerPoint draw diagram. 00:20:00.35 Michael True. Yeah, and I think it it feels like a, yeah, I don't know, yeah. 00:20:03.02 Mark McCracken I spent a lot of time in this Excala draw, but it looks a bit wavy around the edges. 00:20:06.16 Michael Yeah, deliberately waving. 00:20:06.42 Mark McCracken But we don't like that. We like the PowerPoint diagram. 00:20:09.41 Michael Yeah. I don't know. I did like, when I think about all, when I think about all the tech stuff out there and you're like, you know, there's this, you've got a massive list of stuff to learn and you're like, should I learn this? 00:20:17.86 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:20:19.47 Michael Should I learn that? Should I learn this? Should I learn that? It feels like one of those things that's right down the bottom. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. But like, it's, I don't know, maybe it shouldn't be. 00:20:27.08 Mark McCracken Yeah, not a fan. 00:20:30.29 Michael No, no, no, it's not that. 00:20:30.37 Mark McCracken Well, not as a not a fan. It's just like, you're not going to spend time and effort learning something brand new by diagramming when you think it's a relatively lower return on investment. 00:20:32.03 Michael It's not, it's not that. 00:20:37.33 Michael it Should I be though? 00:20:41.55 Michael No, I don't know. I feel like I'm regretting my. That's that. Maybe that sound, maybe that's going back to the AI AI thing. 00:20:50.87 Mark McCracken AI is going to dig diagrams for us. 00:20:51.31 Michael Would you, would, well, you know, if you can put it in, given what, you know, Michelle was saying that he can be a product owner and he can explain what he wants. 00:21:01.50 Mark McCracken Yeah. Why can't I as an architect explain what I want in this diagram? 00:21:03.67 Michael Work on eyes. Yeah. Yeah. 00:21:06.91 Mark McCracken I mean, that'd be great if it worked problem is i'm ah I'm a skeptic. Um, so I would, yeah, I mean, I would definitely try it. I would say if like, if you've got it, so have you tried the chat GPT voice thing where you just talk? 00:21:17.68 Michael No, no. 00:21:18.66 Mark McCracken All right. Strawberry. 00:21:20.08 Michael Okay. 00:21:20.30 Mark McCracken Try that. It's kind of mind blowing. It's like freaky. Uh, basically instead of talking to chat GPT as an instead of typing, you just talk to your microphone and it doesn't text back. 00:21:31.19 Mark McCracken It just talks back. 00:21:32.87 Michael Okay. 00:21:33.52 Mark McCracken And try that. 00:21:34.27 Michael So it's like one conversational. 00:21:34.84 Mark McCracken It'll blow your mind. Yeah, it'll blow your mind. 00:21:36.39 Michael Okay. 00:21:37.37 Mark McCracken It'll blow your mind, especially for, yeah. 00:21:37.67 Michael Okay. okay 00:21:39.03 Mark McCracken yeah Give that a whiz for next time. um But the other thing I was wondering was, ah have you ever seen any infrastructure as code stuff that generates diagrams? 00:21:51.07 Mark McCracken like does any Do you ever see generated diagrams? 00:21:51.77 Michael good yes i have yeah uh god what was i looking at that did this didn't um someone used to do this was it terraform there was someone 00:21:54.45 Mark McCracken So rather than, I don't want to draw this diagram, just make it for me, or represent all my Terraform crap in a file in a diagram, see what it looks like. 00:22:09.84 Mark McCracken I think there's Terry grunt that does testing stuff, but I don't know any anymore. 00:22:13.40 Michael that there used to be a way that you could export i feel like it was terraform where you could like terraform plan pipe to Um, SVG or something, because obviously it knows it was terraform. 00:22:26.52 Michael ah Not ahead of anyone. 00:22:26.91 Mark McCracken Yeah. All right. 00:22:28.42 Michael I think I did the certification at one point. Maybe it was one of those things I had to know about, but, um, it, yeah. 00:22:30.86 Mark McCracken Yeah. Well, we'll look at it up. We'll find it. 00:22:35.30 Michael Um, but it, but it would, because obviously the idea is that it knows, it knows about the relationships between your infrared. 00:22:42.62 Mark McCracken Yeah. Well, you you would hope anyway. 00:22:43.62 Michael So, you know, yeah. So either either you do depends on or. 00:22:45.53 Mark McCracken All right. 00:22:48.29 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:22:48.40 Michael or it knows anyway, and there there used to be a ah view you could get, and it would it would definitely support SVG. You could bring it in and go, here's the, yeah, yeah. 00:22:56.32 Mark McCracken I want to see it. I want to say I want to see what that looks like. All right. We'll find it. 00:22:59.90 Michael what would you What would you say then to, so next week, or whenever your barman comes on, should I learn about architecture diagrams? 00:23:05.77 Mark McCracken Yeah. but i 00:23:09.14 Michael What are you gonna say? 00:23:09.23 Mark McCracken No, no, no, put it at the bottom, bottom of the list. 00:23:09.90 Michael you know um Okay, ah yeah. 00:23:12.74 Mark McCracken ah yeah you'll You'll look at them and hopefully the ones that he sees first of all will be nice and straightforward. When it comes to like system design stuff, when he when he gets to architect level or he's like seeing yourself or engineer, maybe then you can worry about making good diagrams. 00:23:20.21 Michael Yeah. 00:23:24.31 Michael should have should have ah Should have asked Jess. 00:23:26.30 Mark McCracken She should have asked Jess. She would definitely have some sort of opinion either way. 00:23:27.62 Michael Just text her now. 00:23:29.86 Mark McCracken I'm sure she makes, tri she yeah, I'm sure she makes a lot of diagrams. 00:23:29.90 Michael Text her now. 00:23:32.69 Michael Yeah. 00:23:33.22 Mark McCracken ah All right, shall we talk subscriptions? 00:23:35.77 Michael Yes. 00:23:36.65 Mark McCracken you Are you ashamed? 00:23:37.63 Michael Yeah, I'm ashamed. 00:23:37.81 Mark McCracken I'm i'm um i'm nervous. I'm gonna find the total value. I think total value, total number of subscriptions. so we should we Should we go? i'm just I'm just going into Apple subscriptions. So I'm just doing in-app subscriptions and they will work out the rest, right? 00:23:49.15 Michael Okay. All right. 00:23:51.43 Mark McCracken So, all right. 00:23:51.46 Michael We, we, we added up how many you got this. I know this, I know this is, but is this, is this like a, is this just tech or is this like everything or, uh, well, I'm not doing it through, uh, I'm not doing it through that 14. 00:23:55.37 Mark McCracken Active, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. and Everything that's active, how many you got? 00:24:07.62 Mark McCracken You think it's something else? All right. We'll list them off. 14. 00:24:12.99 Michael Okay. 00:24:13.38 Mark McCracken Solid. 00:24:13.73 Michael Wait, no, no, no, it's 13, 13, 13. 00:24:13.90 Mark McCracken I could probably add. Sure. I could add one more to that. 13. All right. 00:24:18.21 Michael Okay. 00:24:19.17 Mark McCracken So I've got Apple one for the family. 00:24:21.44 Michael Me too. 00:24:21.66 Mark McCracken Right. Can't go without it, but you don't have an iPhone, but they all do. 00:24:23.05 Michael Yeah. 00:24:27.11 Michael ah Well, ah I've got, ah and Apple Music on Android is like, yeah, that they release features sooner than they do for the Apple phones, which is kind of weird. 00:24:34.98 Mark McCracken Good. 00:24:37.97 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:24:40.73 Mark McCracken Wow. 00:24:41.51 Michael So be Apple, yeah, Apple got that. 00:24:41.96 Mark McCracken so Solid. it Somebody over there cares. Yeah. I imagine you must feel like a bit of an odd shoe being in a Windows or Android developer at Apple. 00:24:51.78 Michael yes but it must be really weird so yeah we need to find yeah that's that's someone we need in the podcast yeah no do you not get that with apple one or okay okay yeah okay yeah yeah yeah but oh ah wait i've 00:24:52.65 Mark McCracken Yeah. It's like being an iOS developer at Microsoft or something. Yeah, we'll find one of those eight people. Yeah, I got the Apple one. 00:25:03.17 Mark McCracken I got Apple Fitness. No. Well, I've got the smaller tier. So that there's 25 pounds in the middle. And then it's up to 37 pounds for the whole lot, which includes newspapers. And I was like, I'm not going to read this newspaper. I've had it so many times. I'll get the fitness and then not use that instead. That'll be cheaper. 00:25:20.79 Michael um've just I've just found another one for my list, but gone. 00:25:22.72 Mark McCracken Yeah, okay. I got Disney Plus, which I can't not recommend enough because like as it dis-recommend. 00:25:25.62 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:25:30.59 Mark McCracken Because for the life of me, I cannot get signed into my Apple TV. Like I've tried so many times, so many ways. 00:25:35.58 Michael Okay. 00:25:35.60 Mark McCracken I think it's because I had an in-app subscription and I just can't get back into it and it's like costing me, you know, nine pounds a month and I can only watch it on my iPad and it's, yeah, no good. 00:25:38.34 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:25:43.31 Michael Yeah. 00:25:44.29 Mark McCracken Really good one. F1 TV, probably the cheapest one on the list at two pounds 29 a month. 00:25:46.28 Michael Okay. 00:25:49.57 Mark McCracken It's really good. 00:25:49.58 Michael That's pretty good. 00:25:50.96 Mark McCracken Yep, pretty cheap. but 00:25:51.67 Michael I was always tempted by WWE at some point. 00:25:55.08 Mark McCracken So I have had WWE w in the past. 00:25:56.10 Michael You have it, okay, yeah. 00:25:57.20 Mark McCracken I didn't have it for myself. My granddad had it on his TV because he loves a bit of wrestling and it was fantastic. 00:26:01.96 Michael can You can watch all the old stuff. 00:26:02.43 Mark McCracken You can see all the wrestle. Yeah. All the WrestleMania is back to like pre 2000. 00:26:05.34 Michael I'm gonna, because I really wanna watch, because I went to SummerSlam. 00:26:06.73 Mark McCracken Amazing. 00:26:10.04 Mark McCracken Wow. 00:26:10.38 Michael I kinda wanna watch that, the one I went to, yeah. 00:26:12.09 Mark McCracken Wow, yeah, 10 quid a month. Definitely worth it for one month. Give it a one month spin. 00:26:16.14 Michael Yeah, it's Christmas time coming soon, yeah. 00:26:16.92 Mark McCracken um Yeah, I've got iTunes Match, which is like the old version of pre-Apple music. 00:26:23.66 Michael Okay. Yeah. 00:26:26.47 Mark McCracken They had this thing where you could, if if there was a song you wanted to buy from the iTunes store that you already had in your library that you bought from somewhere else or that you ripped from a CD or something, you could upload 00:26:32.18 Michael Yeah. 00:26:37.82 Michael You need to pay for it, or? 00:26:39.58 Mark McCracken Yeah, you had to pay for it, but it was £22 a year. 00:26:39.88 Michael You need to pay for it. Okay. I was going to fix that month, so fuck me. 00:26:43.98 Mark McCracken No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00:26:44.90 Michael Yeah, okay, yeah. 00:26:45.28 Mark McCracken It's £22 a year. It comes round every January and I'm like, oh, we're going to pay for this £22 a year? 00:26:47.21 Michael Okay, what is this? Oh, my credit card bill. 00:26:51.01 Mark McCracken All right, fine. Yeah. But it's just all the old songs that I never had before. Apple Music that have been uploaded. 00:26:56.93 Michael okay yeah i feel like i'm your financial advisor i'm like in the mark okay i've i've remembered another one too yeah now now tv's i'm i've just i'm adding it to my list as well because i got that but they're they're pretty stingy aren't they 00:26:58.01 Mark McCracken Now um neith that I say this out loud, I'm like, I should really stop here stop paying for that. I should just go through and cut all the ones that, yeah. I got three different subscriptions on Nai TV who still think it's acceptable to to charge for HD. 00:27:13.69 Mark McCracken Six good a month for HD, please. I'm like, I've got this 4K TV. I'm not going to watch it on SD. 00:27:26.29 Mark McCracken They are a little bit stingy. 00:27:27.42 Michael You don't, you don't get surrounds and you have to pay more for that. and Yeah. 00:27:30.55 Mark McCracken Yeah, so that bit I really fully disagree with. Like, give away the HD and the UHD and the Dolby Atmos stuff. Give that away for free. 00:27:37.34 Michael Yeah. 00:27:38.28 Mark McCracken Just add an extra couple of pounds under the whatever else it is, right? 00:27:40.62 Michael yeah 00:27:40.92 Mark McCracken But on the whole, I think it's probably a slightly better deal than Skye. If you know what you're going to watch, I'm really only in it for the Formula One. 00:27:47.69 Michael Okay. 00:27:49.11 Mark McCracken And my granddad will watch some other random Skye sports stuff every now and again. 00:27:51.88 Michael Okay. 00:27:52.96 Mark McCracken Sometimes I'll put on Fighting Out Forum and I'll watch a bit of boxing. 00:27:56.39 Michael Cool. 00:27:56.86 Mark McCracken and mostly just so I can see my grandmas say, what do you wanna watch that for? um And the last one, which I can't recommend enough, it's amazing, ah Ultimate Guitar Pro, ah which is an annual 40 points. 00:28:07.78 Michael Okay, cool. Okay. 00:28:11.79 Michael thank 00:28:11.92 Mark McCracken And it's very, very good because it's like tabs, tabs for your bass or guitar. 00:28:15.30 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:28:19.42 Mark McCracken So that's that that feels like genuine value when it comes up on the 14th of November, which I've just missed, so great. 00:28:23.05 Michael Yeah. 00:28:25.05 Mark McCracken um Yeah, really good. 00:28:25.91 Michael If not renewed, we have. 00:28:27.44 Mark McCracken I have definitely renewed, yeah. 00:28:28.02 Michael Okay. 00:28:28.92 Mark McCracken yeah ah Although the other one that's quite good, I got from my granddad, was it an annual subscription ah to both ITV and Channel 4, no ads. 00:28:37.66 Michael Mm-hmm. 00:28:38.27 Mark McCracken Because that's the man that watches a lot of TV. 00:28:39.37 Michael Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:28:41.93 Mark McCracken And I can't imagine he loves the ads, so I just paid for that. 00:28:44.54 Michael Good. 00:28:44.61 Mark McCracken And he gets years, for 100 quid, no ads. Not bad for the year. 00:28:48.26 Michael Nice. Yeah, that's very, very generous of you as well. 00:28:49.02 Mark McCracken Yeah, chuffed with that. 00:28:52.47 Mark McCracken Yep, and also I'm getting the benefit of the no ads. 00:28:52.88 Michael Are we? Oh, yeah, okay yeah, 00:28:55.11 Mark McCracken It just means that on occasion, like, because you only got one profile on Channel 4, you know, you'll watch something like Naked Attraction, then it'll show up on his TV and I'm like, oh shit, how'd I get rid of that? 00:29:04.32 Michael Mm-hmm. 00:29:07.91 Mark McCracken Not that I watched Naked Attraction. um It was just there and I had to and to see what it looked like one time. 00:29:12.00 Michael yeah yeah scatter one always at least one say 00:29:16.06 Mark McCracken Yeah, I think about the end of my list. 00:29:17.79 Michael I keep thinking the new ones are mine, but I haven't, I haven't added the price of mine. 00:29:17.89 Mark McCracken and So that's a total, a monthly total maybe of, let's see, 40... Shit, okay, wow. Probably close to 90 quid, 80, 90 quid. 00:29:33.60 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:29:35.33 Michael I'm quite happy. 00:29:35.66 Mark McCracken ah didn't even I didn't even do Disney, because I've cancelled the Disney now. 00:29:35.69 Michael i and 00:29:39.31 Mark McCracken It's it's it's on retainer until the 29th. 00:29:41.08 Michael Okay. 00:29:43.47 Mark McCracken Oh, I've also, no, i don't I don't have Audible. I did have Audible, but they give you so many free credits and I'm not getting through enough of these books that I'll just cancel it and be like, oh, I still got four credits. 00:29:46.75 Michael Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 00:29:51.03 Mark McCracken And I'll just wait until I run out of credits and be like, react to it. 00:29:53.45 Michael Let me get keeping. 00:29:53.51 Mark McCracken I was worried that if I canceled, I wouldn't be able to listen to these books, but no, I keep them forever. Yeah, so I'll just cancel and I'll wait till I, yes, it's great. 00:29:57.65 Michael Yeah. And if you got prime, we got prime as well. 00:30:01.95 Mark McCracken I i think my girlfriend's got Prime, so I make somewhat use of that. 00:30:04.87 Michael Okay. 00:30:07.38 Mark McCracken um But I feel like we're maybe, nah, I think we are paying for that one, yeah. And I could be wrong, but I think she's paying for YouTube potentially, which I'm not thrilled about. 00:30:16.68 Michael Oh yeah. yeah 00:30:20.53 Mark McCracken 17 quid a month for YouTube with no ads, as I thought is, that's that's a lot, right? 00:30:21.97 Michael Jesus. It is scary, isn't it, when you see all this stuff ramping up and it's like... 00:30:26.30 Mark McCracken That's a lot for you YouTube. 00:30:28.18 Michael I feel bad. 00:30:28.97 Mark McCracken Anyway, what have you got? 00:30:29.56 Michael Just look at this list. 00:30:31.71 Mark McCracken Let's spit it out. 00:30:31.77 Michael Okay. All right. I've got a code cloud subscription. Mine are more techie. 00:30:35.14 Mark McCracken Code cloud. 00:30:36.08 Michael Code cloud. With a K and a K. 00:30:37.52 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah, I know it. Oh, I've got an interesting story actually with CodeCloud. 00:30:38.56 Michael Yeah. Okay. 00:30:40.55 Mark McCracken There there was a change in their name recently, right? 00:30:43.00 Michael Yeah, I logged in yesterday and it made me change my password and it said, like, welcome to code cloud AI. And I'd have a check to see if that hadn't been hacked. 00:30:54.33 Michael No, they're still code cloud. 00:30:54.52 Mark McCracken Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing. No. 00:30:57.83 Michael No, you're thinking of. 00:30:59.22 Mark McCracken I'm thinking of Ray Wenderlich. Ray Wenderlich, you know the iOS Android mobile development website? 00:31:04.47 Michael Okay. 00:31:06.32 Mark McCracken It was just this guy. 00:31:07.38 Michael Yeah. 00:31:07.53 Mark McCracken He named a website after himself that then got huge. 00:31:10.54 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:31:10.83 Mark McCracken And then they decided they were going to change the name. 00:31:12.99 Michael Yeah, I can see that. 00:31:13.57 Mark McCracken Decided they were going to change the name to Kodeko. 00:31:16.90 Michael Okay. 00:31:17.81 Mark McCracken announced that they were going to change the name to that coup deco in a company meeting before buying the domain. 00:31:23.30 Michael Okay. 00:31:26.12 Michael Oh no. 00:31:26.13 Mark McCracken The very next day, they get basically blackmailed. Somebody says, we bought this domain, you can have it for $5,000 or $10,000 or whatever. 00:31:30.66 Michael Oh well. 00:31:35.13 Michael So they announced it. 00:31:36.65 Mark McCracken Then I stood in a company meeting saying, we're going to, yeah, were we're going to change our name to this. 00:31:37.19 Michael Okay. okay 00:31:40.28 Mark McCracken I think it was an an internal meeting in the company, but like all hands, all staff, whatever, we're going to change it. 00:31:43.38 Michael yeah okay oh wow okay that's that's not that's not where i thought you're going with the story but i thought it was like that there's a there's um car companies that come out with the name of their car before they realize what it means in the local language so i think i'm i'm going to fit one uh one of the 00:31:45.23 Mark McCracken This is going to be the name. This is the rebrand. This is what's coming out in like two weeks time before they had bought the domain name. And then brother of somebody that works there just says, Oh, okay. That was, let me write that down. 00:31:56.11 Mark McCracken Buys a domain name. 00:31:59.01 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:32:09.28 Mark McCracken Can you get any top examples? yeah know we are Are we about to see the Kia slot on the roads? 00:32:14.65 Michael One of the Fiat cars, I think, means small penis. Maybe be the Pinto? I'm not sure. But they were like, why is this car not selling in its place? 00:32:23.99 Mark McCracken All right, so what do you get for CodeCloud? 00:32:26.12 Michael It was like on the back. It's just, yeah. and ah What do I get for CloCloud? 00:32:30.15 Mark McCracken What does it do? 00:32:32.29 Michael So um i I use CloCloud for doing my CKA and my CKAD. 00:32:39.09 Mark McCracken Ah, yeah. 00:32:41.53 Michael And I was doing the CKS training. Um, on that, and then I am just about to start doing, I'm going to sign in now and see what you access to, but I think they're really good. 00:32:51.25 Mark McCracken Go for right. 00:32:53.15 Michael I started doing some Prometheus training in there. Um, they've got some, they've definitely got some stuff on Istio cause I, or just on service mesh generally. 00:33:01.96 Mark McCracken Give me one second. Want to see if I can get that dog. We'll take a quick pause here and see if I can grab that dog. 00:33:06.56 Michael Mm. 00:33:12.19 Mark McCracken did you even go 00:33:49.94 Mark McCracken I thought I'd be smart by stopping the dog from getting out by putting him, uh, putting, putting, closing the cat flap and he just opened the door. 00:33:55.70 Michael Okay. 00:33:58.68 Mark McCracken Anyway, code glide. 00:33:59.77 Michael Go Cloud, what do you get? So this I've just done a filter for all the standard stuff. 00:34:04.17 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:34:04.30 Michael So let me just grab some of these here. All the CKA stuff. You've got some Jenkins training. You've got the EF-K stack. 00:34:12.49 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:34:12.77 Michael That looks like I can see a little fluent bit in there, maybe Kibana. 00:34:15.59 Mark McCracken Must he pay for it? 00:34:16.83 Michael ah I always get it on Black Friday. 00:34:21.15 Mark McCracken So you've just paid for it? 00:34:21.25 Michael So i've just I must have just paid for it, or if not, it's coming out very soon. um Yeah, there's low generative AI in there, Postman, Lowkey, GitOps for Flux, Pulumi, Advanced Bash. 00:34:33.79 Mark McCracken Is it worth it? 00:34:37.41 Michael Yes, it's, is it worth it for me? ah Not yet, not at the moment because i'm I'm struggling to get all the time and I want to do the things. 00:34:48.38 Mark McCracken This is the same as the books on the shelf, right? 00:34:50.37 Michael Yeah, it's that, it's that, yeah, and yeah. 00:34:50.95 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What else you got? 00:34:54.04 Michael and What else I got? So, one password. 00:34:58.15 Mark McCracken You pay for one password. 00:34:59.82 Michael I perform password. 00:35:00.77 Mark McCracken How much you pay for one password? 00:35:01.32 Michael So we've got a family. and but Don't ask all these questions because I don't know. 00:35:06.51 Mark McCracken I suppose I hadn't really thought about it. 00:35:06.75 Michael But yeah, but i i but then I've got an Android phone. 00:35:07.86 Mark McCracken Like they obviously they're a business and they need money, but I just use the Apple one, but you don't have that. Hmm. Yeah. 00:35:15.41 Michael So would I, if I just had an Android phone, would I get it? 00:35:17.25 Mark McCracken How much? 00:35:19.04 Michael I don't know. I think that, and I guess, yeah, we apart from me, we're pretty Apple house. And I think I've like, I think I've added family members. 00:35:26.67 Mark McCracken So you're just the... 00:35:28.65 Michael Cause I think I get five people on the plan, but, um, I wouldn't, I wouldn't not have a password manager, but would I go all in on the Apple one? 00:35:36.71 Mark McCracken i i I love it. 00:35:36.82 Michael the so Yeah. 00:35:37.91 Mark McCracken This is kind of the reason I use two different browsers throughout the day. 00:35:40.10 Michael Yeah. 00:35:40.39 Mark McCracken I will routinely use both Brave and Safari because I like the Safari one because it'll fill in your password, but it also does TFA things. So if you've got like a verification code, you just put your finger on the little touch jobbie and it's like, then your TFA as well. 00:35:48.25 Michael Yeah. 00:35:50.98 Michael On that thing. 00:35:54.12 Mark McCracken I'm like, oh great. 00:35:54.29 Michael So. 00:35:54.60 Mark McCracken This is almost just like like having the protection of TFA without the hassle of like, shit, where's my phone? 00:35:59.63 Michael so So one password has all these like dev integration. So it's got a dev setting where basically it will and it will load your SSH keys from one password as well. 00:36:11.27 Michael So even your SSH, it will, yeah, it will generate your SSH keys. 00:36:11.30 Mark McCracken very Very, very, very, very developer settings. I want it to be, I want to think less about, my I want to think less about my password manager rather than more, but yeah, fair. 00:36:19.04 Michael Yeah, no, so I like that, I'm gonna keep that. 00:36:20.22 Mark McCracken How much does it cost for one password family? 00:36:20.97 Michael So I don't know, I'll find this out afterwards. 00:36:24.91 Mark McCracken All right. 00:36:25.62 Michael Apple Music or Apple One probably. ah music so worried about satan his his patron page yeah you like him more that's him too well that's him that's one of his projects but um i pay for the page i don't do it through apple i saw i saw a thing about this apple uh they 00:36:29.84 Mark McCracken Probably. You're a subscriber. You got an affiliate link. 00:36:39.78 Mark McCracken ah Yeah, it was you quite good. I preferred i preferred that over what was the other one, ghosting. Yeah. So you subscribe to the Patreon page as in you have a monthly subscription thing. 00:36:57.62 Michael patreon had to apple was saying no we got it if you do any of your patreon stuff through us you have to pay more money they're quite yeah they're they're like they don't want people subscribing to stuff outside of apple today yeah yeah another another one duolingo 00:37:04.89 Mark McCracken Hmm. Yeah. 00:37:11.17 Mark McCracken They don't, which is why Disney is like really telling me, no, you cannot sign into this app, which is a pain in the ass. I mean, I get it, but also, yeah, it's sometimes a pain in the ass for the user. 00:37:23.30 Mark McCracken Yeah. 10 quid a month sort of job. Yeah. what what What are you learning at the moment? 00:37:27.09 Michael I'm learning French and a bit of Greek. 00:37:29.67 Mark McCracken Yeah. Any holidays planned? 00:37:30.44 Michael Yeah. Uh, I should probably go to France, shouldn't I? 00:37:34.45 Mark McCracken Probably. Yeah. 00:37:34.87 Michael I go to Cyprus. So let's, um, so then we've got a few more coming. in So we've got medium. 00:37:40.35 Mark McCracken You pay for medium? 00:37:41.23 Michael Yeah. 00:37:41.30 Mark McCracken Yeah, worthwhile? 00:37:41.89 Michael Yeah. 00:37:44.49 Michael Uh, don't, I don't know what I pay for medium custom domain. I think I kind of had to do the custom domain thing. 00:37:48.59 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:37:50.31 Michael So, uh, I haven't really explored the other benefits yet, but I've kind of feel like I've gone in on the public on no custom domain. 00:37:54.97 Mark McCracken All right, 00:37:56.79 Michael So I can't really. 00:37:59.00 Mark McCracken medium member, $5 a month or $60 a year, something like that. 00:38:03.19 Michael Yeah, it sounds about right. 00:38:03.73 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:38:04.07 Michael And actually, you know, what I've. i've yes Yeah, I don't know. 00:38:05.84 Mark McCracken Hang on, that's not any cheaper. 00:38:09.95 Mark McCracken Why don't they give you an annual discount? 00:38:13.82 Michael I've kind of i've since I've had it, I've found it kind of preferred the long form story thing. 00:38:19.56 Mark McCracken Nah, getting into the hole. 00:38:19.97 Michael And I kind of feel like a rag on LinkedIn like every time I talk, but the long form stories are nice and you know, um, so that, yeah. 00:38:23.16 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:38:25.50 Mark McCracken It's not so like, dupe with me and hitting, give me the short stuff. It's like, give me the teal. 00:38:30.27 Michael Uh, few, few domains, I guess, CloudFlare, you must have a theory or through. 00:38:31.05 Mark McCracken can me Give me the longer bit. 00:38:36.57 Mark McCracken ah No, not that many. CC, im um'm I'm worried of falling into the trap of buying too many domains. So I do have a f friend, right? 00:38:41.59 Michael Yeah. 00:38:42.98 Mark McCracken And he's a great guy, dentist, and he's like, oh, I got to get me some domains. So he's got this domain that he uses a lot. I'm happy to plug it. 00:38:49.78 Michael Yeah. 00:38:50.50 Mark McCracken It's dentist2invest.com. 00:38:51.73 Michael Okay. 00:38:52.42 Mark McCracken um And he's been building this business, Dentist2Invest, for ages. And he's like, oh, got to get the other .co.uk as well, just in case. 00:38:59.54 Michael Yeah, you've got to catch them all. 00:39:01.20 Mark McCracken Obviously, then he's also got he's got his own name.co.uk and his own name.com. 00:39:06.09 Michael Yeah. 00:39:08.82 Michael Okay. 00:39:09.57 Mark McCracken Yep, he has then expanded out to get a few other domains that might be relevant. 00:39:10.13 Michael Yeah. 00:39:14.03 Michael Okay. 00:39:16.51 Michael Yeah. 00:39:16.59 Mark McCracken He's got a whatever, a store, like the dentist who invests store or something like that. And I was like, you could just use a subdomain for this. You don't need to get an extra. 00:39:26.76 Michael and Oh, okay. Yeah, that sounds strong. 00:39:27.93 Mark McCracken Cause obviously he's not he's not a technically minded, but like he's not a, he's not a domain wizard like he like you're I, Michael. 00:39:29.73 Michael Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 00:39:36.32 Mark McCracken He's not at the advanced stage. 00:39:36.45 Michael He's basically getting, he's been getting domains that replicate all the pages. 00:39:39.84 Mark McCracken ah No, not not quite not quite that far. 00:39:40.85 Michael Okay. 00:39:41.36 Mark McCracken No, but it would that that wouldn't that was was kind of reasonable. 00:39:41.37 Michael Okay. 00:39:43.80 Mark McCracken He's got like DWI storage or whatever. um But yeah, could obviously just be a subdomain. 00:39:48.20 Michael and 00:39:49.02 Mark McCracken But then he's he's he has acquired the domain finance.mba. 00:39:55.00 Michael Oh, that sounds good. 00:39:56.17 Mark McCracken It does sound good, but it also sounds expensive. 00:39:57.09 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:39:58.78 Mark McCracken I i mean, I don't know. I could go and check, but I don't know. But I imagine it's expensive. And eventually I went through it one day. He's got 20 domains. 00:40:06.70 Michael Okay, okay. 00:40:07.45 Mark McCracken and only really only really one of them in use. And I was like, you got a lot of domains here, you could probably cut back quite a lot on these. 00:40:12.10 Michael Yeah, I think I've been in that. I've been in that too. 00:40:14.22 Mark McCracken So um how many domains are you currently paying for? Two, fair enough. 00:40:18.90 Michael But I've been there. So i so when we got married, we I did one of those wedding site things. 00:40:20.22 Mark McCracken Hey, it's Michael. Yeah. 00:40:25.21 Michael I think I did WordPress. 00:40:26.48 Mark McCracken Is it still there? Can I see it? 00:40:27.81 Michael No, it's gone. It has actually gone. I'm not making it up. 00:40:30.45 Mark McCracken no 00:40:30.66 Michael But and so we got we got something like, you know, some some some wedding related one. 00:40:33.03 Mark McCracken Web archives gotta have this. 00:40:37.90 Michael And then I remember thinking afterwards. Wouldn't it be a great project to. Yeah, you can you can go and you can like you can basically do someone's website, but you can you can probably put together a few templates and sell that as a service by the amount of people who 00:40:49.48 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:40:52.74 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:40:55.37 Michael have a wedding I want to sell it and a lot of them are crap so I was like I held on to the domain name yeah exactly you know this is where it is and you know come and blah blah blah gift thing and I held on to it and I was like this is good this is a good domain I had the code you can and every year you come around and you're like I'm gonna renew it but I'm gonna make this money I'm gonna make this money back later and I think 00:40:55.38 Mark McCracken Yeah, people do it all the time. Yeah. 00:40:59.59 Mark McCracken And weddings. I mean, most of them just white background, isn't it? So easy peasy. I've got to send her any divs. Yeah. 00:41:15.07 Mark McCracken Cover all your bases. 00:41:18.95 Mark McCracken But this year, this year, we're really going to do it. did did you ever Did you ever open a project and be like, here we go. 00:41:26.36 Michael What I started, did I ever open the project? I think I probably made a directory or something. 00:41:31.73 Mark McCracken There we go. 00:41:32.44 Michael But then I was like, no, no, yeah now what I'm going to do is I'm going to sell it the domain because this must be top top dollar domain. 00:41:38.04 Mark McCracken Must have massively appreciated. Yeah. 00:41:40.49 Michael Yeah, ah but it I think, can I even remember it what it is? 00:41:41.51 Mark McCracken and What's the domain? 00:41:44.66 Mark McCracken You don't even know. Surely get married dot.com and then you just have a sub demand with the two people's name. 00:41:48.38 Michael Let me just check that our wedding stuff's not on there first. ah 00:41:53.46 Mark McCracken Mark quickly goes to web archives. 00:41:57.42 Michael Oh yeah. I'm always a bit cautious about what's on there. 00:42:02.87 Mark McCracken What's your wife's name? 00:42:05.11 Michael Nope. 00:42:08.60 Michael Anyways, but it made no money and I finally gave it up and I was like, nah, other stuff. So the other stuff is no, no, I let it, I let it, I let it lapse. 00:42:14.04 Mark McCracken But you still own it. 00:42:17.13 Mark McCracken You let it lapse and has someone taken it up now that you're not going to blackmail. 00:42:20.91 Michael Doesn't look like it from just popping on the same. 00:42:22.00 Mark McCracken So it's available. 00:42:23.45 Michael Um, okay. One, I meant three more, two more. 00:42:24.76 Mark McCracken I hope you didn't delete that directory. 00:42:26.79 Michael session session pro. 00:42:29.04 Mark McCracken Session pro. 00:42:29.96 Michael Yeah. 00:42:30.48 Mark McCracken What is session pro? 00:42:30.66 Michael So, uh, there's a website called, there's a website called users. This already like that. So if you're the users, uses this dot.com. So it's, it's interviews with people in, you know, various, we can say just text and nerdy interviews, asking people from all walks of life, what they used to get the job done. 00:42:52.86 Mark McCracken Okay. 00:42:52.95 Michael I don't know if you're on on that now. 00:42:53.53 Mark McCracken So as in somebody, somebody uses this. 00:42:55.14 Michael You just talk to someone, you say, hey, you know, hey, what do you do? And they they might be like, oh, I've got a, you know, i'm just I've just clicked on someone. They're like, I've got a, you know, new fee keyboard. 00:43:05.62 Michael I've got a Mac pro. yeah I use notion. 00:43:06.98 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:43:07.42 Michael I use Figma, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And and someone mentioned session and it's a, it's a Pomodoro. 00:43:10.20 Mark McCracken And session pro. Hmm. 00:43:13.82 Michael It's just a Pomodoro. It's very simple. Um, and, and you, you know, you click start and you have a big, big red tomorrow thing and and it counts down. 00:43:25.17 Mark McCracken So i bought i've but i've got I've got two things, two things for keeping me on track or at least two things that I can look at while I'm not on track. 00:43:25.23 Michael You've probably got, you've got a physical thing. Yeah. Yeah. 00:43:34.19 Mark McCracken Give me a sec. 00:43:40.39 Michael Oh yeah. 00:43:41.98 Mark McCracken So this is this is what I bought from an ad that I saw on Instagram, because i don't I don't know why, but I did. 00:43:45.84 Michael is Yeah. 00:43:48.37 Mark McCracken It's a little tiny circular disk, and you just sort of rotate it a bit to say how much time you want. 00:43:53.31 Michael Oh well. 00:43:54.82 Mark McCracken You press the button, and it starts, and it's magnetic on the back, and you just click it on here, and it's counting down. 00:43:54.93 Michael I think so so someone someone said, or I read, they were like, you know, you can tell I've been reading a lot of stuff about productivity and concentration and stuff like that. 00:44:01.36 Mark McCracken Or if you want something a bit more analog, I've got an actual hourglass, which is pretty neat, and it does an hour, hence the name. 00:44:18.77 Michael And what'd you say? 00:44:19.55 Mark McCracken It's working. 00:44:21.87 Michael I wasn't listening. 00:44:22.26 Mark McCracken Is it working? 00:44:23.94 Michael No, yes. No, is it working? Yeah. Yeah. But I think once you become aware of it, it's good. But, you know, there was sort of a challenge about how many straight sessions of 20 minutes with no distractions can you do in a day. 00:44:41.22 Michael And it basically, you know, at the start of this book, it was like, try it. Just try it. See how many you get. You know, would you get five? Would you get six? Would you get seven? 00:44:48.71 Mark McCracken Two, I reckon. 00:44:48.72 Michael And you know, the first time you're like, oh my God, I've got like zero. you know, like some ping will come in or get picked up by something. 00:44:52.03 Mark McCracken Yeah. Something comes in. 00:44:55.03 Michael Something comes in. 00:44:55.28 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:44:55.86 Michael But so session pro, you get in there, you click the stuff, it will, it can save the sessions to your and it can save the sessions to your calendar. 00:45:09.42 Mark McCracken What do you mean by a session? 00:45:09.67 Michael So you can, a session, a pomodoro session. 00:45:12.78 Mark McCracken Okay, as in like, as in like, just, just the 20 minute slot or like ah a continuation of five blocks of slots. 00:45:13.24 Michael I did 20 minutes of, yeah. 00:45:18.63 Michael Well, you can, you can, you can, so when 20 minutes is getting up, you can actually, you can extend it if you want to. So like, if you're in, if you're in like a focus mode, you can go stand extent extend, extend, extend, and then you can look back over your day and you can, when it finishes, you can, you can rate it, you can categorize it, you can write notes on it and and and you can look at it at the end of the day and you can go, you know, some days you finish the day and you're like, oh, that was a really shit day. Like, what did I, like, I just bounced around it, loads of admin and blah, blah, blah. 00:45:48.92 Michael You can look back and you go, you know what, I was quite focused. Like I, you know, I got up, and I did this, and I did that, and I did that. 00:45:53.07 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:45:53.76 Michael And, um, I was going to use this, ah this is what I'm starting to think about at the moment. Um, you can CSV export this. So you can, you can dump out what you've been up to as a CSV. 00:46:08.65 Mark McCracken so So when you say it records a session, like do you have to tell it what you've done in that session? 00:46:08.69 Michael So I'm i'm starting to think about pulling that stuff into some sort of dashboarding software. 00:46:18.40 Michael Yeah, you you you just, you you you bring up the you bring up the app. i It's just an app. 00:46:21.71 Mark McCracken It's just ah like an app on your desktop, right? 00:46:23.75 Michael It's a very simple, yeah, um on both actually. 00:46:23.89 Mark McCracken Or on your phone. 00:46:26.23 Michael I think but it's it's Apple only and it goes across, you know, it'll go across my iPad and all the things and stuff like that. 00:46:26.71 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:46:30.66 Mark McCracken Oh, all of the things. Yeah. 00:46:33.11 Michael And yeah, at the end of it, you can just say, you know, that was 20 minutes. I don't know. and I was learning. 00:46:38.67 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:46:39.94 Michael What was I going to learn this morning? and I was going to do a session on Customize and and I'd probably, you know, record that under So I'm cascading, make some notes, and then kind of look back on it. 00:46:50.14 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:46:51.05 Michael And this all links to the blog post stuff, I see. so thats which i'm Yeah, 00:46:54.71 Mark McCracken Ah, brilliant. Is, is that there's a second one on the working? 00:46:59.45 Michael yeah i'm umm I'm thinking about basically how to pull that session data and then use that to as like a sort of almost like accountability tracker. 00:47:09.39 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:47:09.91 Michael So if I if i was to if i was basically take that cv CSV, you know put it in the world's most basic data pipeline and then, you know and then basically come out with ah with a dashboard. 00:47:21.16 Mark McCracken Like the equivalent of a GitHub graph that everyone can see shame you into doing some work. 00:47:23.34 Michael Yeah. 00:47:25.76 Michael Yeah. And yes, that's exactly it. That is exactly it. 00:47:29.49 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:47:30.38 Michael And, you know, there's there's probably like, I mean, it's not very complicated out, but there's probably enough in there just to, you know, write some infrastructures code and, and you know, use some new stuff, start with any stuff. 00:47:30.74 Mark McCracken Sounds great. 00:47:36.03 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah. 00:47:39.65 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah. The start of any project, obviously. 00:47:43.22 Michael Because guys you guys start a project and you're like, What am I going to write? 00:47:43.99 Mark McCracken Why would you start a project with writing the code? 00:47:46.58 Michael What am I going to do? 00:47:47.08 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:47:47.34 Michael Like, hello, world's boring. And so, yeah, sessions there. And then then I think I'd pay for one or the other pocket and feedly. 00:47:56.16 Mark McCracken One of the two. 00:47:56.97 Michael So feedly is a feed reader. And then what what pocket will do? Pocket are now owned by Mozilla, maybe. So so feed lead feedly will organize your feeds. 00:48:07.62 Michael And then you can send them to pocket. And what pocket does is it basically strips all of the um stuff from around it and then it yeah and and it turns it into a very you know a very legible readable thing and and and yeah and and and it can so and it can also sort of save it for offline reading and it does get around a few paywalls as well um but but yeah so so basically i when i was commuting more into the office and i had like a tube part of the journey anything i'd found they're all there you know you bring them up they they all look almost exactly the same 00:48:17.08 Mark McCracken Ads and whatnot. Yeah, a bit like medium but different. 00:48:29.21 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah. 00:48:38.31 Mark McCracken They're all there. 00:48:44.76 Michael Um, yeah, I really liked that. It kind of really kept me, um, current current. 00:48:47.46 Mark McCracken Yeah. Rating. 00:48:49.30 Michael Yeah. It keeps you reading which currency. 00:48:50.03 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 00:48:51.47 Michael Yeah. 00:48:52.49 Mark McCracken All right. 00:48:52.78 Michael That's a lot of stuff, isn't it? 00:48:54.00 Mark McCracken Yeah. I got, uh, one other bit. 00:48:56.98 Michael I've, I've got, I'm going to ask you before you've got, this is my question. 00:48:57.35 Mark McCracken Biggest incidents and mistakes. Should we cover that? 00:49:01.65 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:49:02.83 Michael You've got to dump one of them. What do you dump? 00:49:05.86 Mark McCracken I've got to get rid of one of them. 00:49:07.00 Michael You gotta get rid of one of them. 00:49:07.02 Mark McCracken You mean beyond Disney Plus? ah Which has already hit the iTunes match. 00:49:11.47 Michael I, I, I, I, she's about, she's going to be watching this match. 00:49:12.80 Mark McCracken iTunes match. Yeah, it's got to go. And I've got to do it within the next month as well. Otherwise, another 22 quid down the drain. 00:49:20.01 Michael I haven't even, I didn't even get through my that, I brought, yeah. 00:49:21.23 Mark McCracken I mean, it was great. Well, I had it like years ago. I just don't think I'm getting the value for money anymore. You got to bin one of these, which are you getting rid of? Surely, fairly. You're paying for that. I just told you about a free one. 00:49:31.33 Michael I may have, I may have, one of those other pocket of freely, I've already gone so free too. I'm gonna go for, you know what I pay for, I pay for, I pay for Outlook, like I pay for like an office 365 subscription. And I'm not sure I should bother. 00:49:51.09 Mark McCracken ah Yeah, andt think I didn't think you should bother. 00:49:51.58 Michael I do like the office tools, but I'm really not like. 00:49:53.80 Mark McCracken you You'll almost always, like if you need a quick exhale, you'll almost always have a work account that has a thing and you can just dash some stuff down there. 00:49:57.27 Michael is 00:50:00.29 Michael Yeah. I think it's, I think it's 80 quid a year. And I think that my my dad got a new Mac and he's like, Oh, I need, I need all my new tools. 00:50:05.80 Mark McCracken Yes, a lot. 00:50:09.88 Mark McCracken Word. Yeah. 00:50:11.29 Michael And I was like, well, I kind of like, I i used, I used PowerPoint for like a job interview. 00:50:19.11 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:50:19.36 Michael I needed it and I was like, uh, yeah, kind of. Yeah, it's better than it's better than I don't really write the Apple one that much. 00:50:23.82 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:50:28.11 Michael So I was kind of, with it but and yeah. 00:50:29.01 Mark McCracken No, not a fan. I quite like it. I use these pages mostly from a CV, which I update too often. 00:50:33.64 Michael Yeah. 00:50:35.72 Mark McCracken Um, um, um, numbers. I really like numbers. I like it a lot. 00:50:40.28 Michael Okay. 00:50:40.44 Mark McCracken It's nice and neat and clean. I did it for my finance stuff and my spreadsheet to tell me how much debt I'm in. 00:50:43.88 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:50:46.07 Mark McCracken It's great. I don't know. It would have very often to get worse every time. 00:50:48.87 Michael Okay, I'll go out looking. I'll go out looking. and You go your iTunes. 00:50:51.87 Mark McCracken All right. Um, yeah, we have one other, one, on one other that thought might be interesting. 00:50:56.83 Michael Okay. 00:50:57.18 Mark McCracken Biggest incidents and or it mistakes at work like production incident. 00:51:02.15 Michael I have one. 00:51:03.82 Mark McCracken You got one. 00:51:03.99 Michael Yeah, I should have more. I've been doing this for a long time. 00:51:08.03 Mark McCracken Me doing this a while. 00:51:08.19 Michael I should have more. So this is going to massively jinx it, isn't it? 00:51:09.75 Mark McCracken Well, sign of a good SR England if he's only had one incident. Yeah. 00:51:15.01 Michael Just by saying it. I, um, 00:51:17.77 Mark McCracken Take the rest of the week off. 00:51:18.87 Michael Yeah, i am I did some out-of-hours upgrade. 00:51:25.35 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:51:25.66 Michael Some out-of-hours upgrade on... 00:51:27.73 Mark McCracken Database. 00:51:28.43 Michael No, it was on software that used to be called Ansible Tower. 00:51:28.77 Mark McCracken Jira. 00:51:34.47 Mark McCracken Another one, yeah. 00:51:35.16 Michael so it's like the it's it's been good's It's renamed now, so Red Hat Automation Platform. 00:51:35.47 Mark McCracken that's like 00:51:38.27 Mark McCracken Ansible, but a bit more. 00:51:39.89 Michael or It's Ansible, but it's Ansible with... 00:51:40.55 Mark McCracken What's the gist behind it? It's Ansible, which is, does your infrastructure deployment enterprising stuff? 00:51:45.97 Michael with um audit logs and, you know, our back and, and, and yeah, you can run it centrally and you can, you can, you know, use external secret stores, upgrading Ansible tower the, the day before, I don't know, the day before some big launch. 00:51:49.13 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah. Rather than everybody just running it from their laptop. It's a bit more centralized. So you're upgrading Ansible Tower. Yeah. 00:52:05.22 Michael I can't remember why I upgraded it. Why would you do that? 00:52:08.25 Mark McCracken Why did you do that? 00:52:08.26 Michael Why would you do it the day before the launch? I can't remember. But the upgrade went pear shaped. Don't think it was my fault. 00:52:15.52 Mark McCracken High power shift. 00:52:17.06 Michael It's just no rollback didn't work no rollback didn't work uh so i bring up i'm quite a fan of the old multiple multiple terminal window stuff going on yeah i like tmux yeah yeah i like tmux yeah i think it's one one of the first things i built my terminal is tmux so i'm like oh this this installation's fucked up let's let's go and have a look at 00:52:18.61 Mark McCracken Didn't work. ah No rollback. Rollback doesn't exist. Okay, great. 00:52:32.04 Mark McCracken Tmux. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, screw it. If you can remember all the commands to use it, if you use your terminal all the time and you're okay with it, go for it. Yeah. Yep. 00:52:46.53 Mark McCracken Yep. 00:52:48.15 Michael the other versions that we've got of this in different countries. You can see where this one's going, right? So it's like, let me just compare how the two things look. All right, okay, I'm gonna restart the, I'm gonna do the upgrade again. Okay, let me kick off a few upgrades going on. And I think I broke three of them, three different versions of these in different countries. 00:53:15.90 Mark McCracken all at once All at once by typing in one terminal, it types in all three windows. 00:53:16.96 Michael all at once by kicking off. yeah not It wasn't one of the one terminal things where it gets gets sent to, yeah, cluster SSH. It wasn't something like that. bo I was in the terminal windows and I was like, I think as soon as I hid it, I was like, oh no. 00:53:34.10 Mark McCracken Oh, shit. 00:53:34.60 Michael Which one? Because it was one of those things where the prompt doesn't look any, you see that you didn't know which, you didn't know because the obviously the prompt just says like the name of the host name. 00:53:38.27 Mark McCracken Oh, so you didn't know which window you put it in? 00:53:44.66 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:53:44.87 Michael And I think it was when those were the prompts as the host name, but obviously not the DNS name. 00:53:48.73 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:53:49.55 Michael So you're like, you're on box X and you're like, cool, ready to run the upgrade on. And I was like, hang on a second. 00:53:55.29 Mark McCracken Okay. 00:53:55.45 Michael Which environment's that? 00:53:55.69 Mark McCracken so So what was the side effects of Ansible tar not being available? 00:53:56.49 Michael And then I went to the UI and I'm like, it's just big white page. I was like, oh no. say ah 00:54:05.30 Mark McCracken Because I would have thought that was like a backend thing that doesn't touch your live infrastructure until you go to do a deployment. 00:54:08.73 Michael Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and all yet well it would have been, the problem would have been that no deployments would have run in any of those other environments until this the time that it was back up. 00:54:21.61 Mark McCracken until until it was fixed, basically. 00:54:24.09 Michael But we were we we did, 00:54:26.08 Mark McCracken But you had a major launch today the next day, right? 00:54:28.75 Michael yeah, but actually we we, so what we did is we'd actually, I feel like it saved our bucks. I think probably people were like, I remember explaining how how we were doing this to some people and they'd be like, it sounds a bit complicated. And and i I did a session on this at like whatever the Red Hat event is and Because we we basically we basically did configuration as code for Tower. 00:54:50.38 Michael So all of the all of the playbooks that people ran were themselves provisioned by a playbook, a bit meta. 00:54:50.43 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:54:54.25 Mark McCracken Yeah. 00:54:59.10 Mark McCracken Very meta. 00:54:59.20 Michael So so we we sit to we said to everyone, if you write a playbook, and and what that playbook should do is create all the other playbooks. 00:54:59.96 Mark McCracken Yeah. In case you lost all your playbooks, you just... 00:55:08.43 Mark McCracken Right. 00:55:08.76 Michael And then we had a whole bunch of puppet code that would, we had like custom puppet modules that would build all the other stuff as well. 00:55:16.76 Mark McCracken Okay. 00:55:16.81 Michael So, so when I finally got the installation back in a good state, it was, it was just like click, click, click and everything started appearing. 00:55:24.43 Mark McCracken as in all of the other previous playbooks just came back into existence. 00:55:24.57 Michael And I was like, yes, all of the stuff, because it was it basically the database had got, the database had got blasted for some reason. Everything was just, everything was was stuck. 00:55:34.31 Mark McCracken Yep. 00:55:35.95 Michael So I think it, and three hours, three hours about 11 o'clock. 00:55:40.30 Mark McCracken Not too bad. 00:55:42.22 Michael I called, I called Phil. 00:55:44.16 Mark McCracken and Was there like downtime? 00:55:44.52 Michael I was really unhappy. No, no downtown. 00:55:47.29 Mark McCracken No downtime as such, it's just a backend. 00:55:47.58 Michael I called him and I was like, he's like, what do you want me to do? And I was like, I think I just need a friend. 00:55:51.80 Mark McCracken Just want you to hold my hand. 00:55:51.94 Michael I just need someone to talk to. But yeah, it was good. So that's, I think, yeah, that's not a bad deal. 00:55:58.32 Mark McCracken But no user facing impact. 00:55:59.74 Michael No user facing embarrassed. 00:56:01.50 Mark McCracken Great. No business impact really. 00:56:02.08 Michael No business embarrassed. I've definitely jinxed things haven't I? 00:56:06.15 Mark McCracken God damn it. That makes my story sound. 00:56:08.20 Michael Go on then. 00:56:09.18 Mark McCracken My speakers are shit now. 00:56:10.22 Michael Go on then. 00:56:11.29 Mark McCracken So we used we used to do promotions on the website. The way this would happen is you would just run some SQL. 00:56:17.76 Michael yeah yeah okay remember this i remember this was you this was you well 00:56:18.12 Mark McCracken You'd run some SQL and say, this i mean this is it's not a good way to go about doing things. But you would just run some SQL in a database and say, oh, these are all of the people that you know meet the criteria. 00:56:28.59 Mark McCracken This is how much money we should give them. It's just, it's just, it's just, you remember this. Okay. Well, that must be bad. Cause we don't even work remotely close to each other at that point in time. Yeah, it was me. It was me. 00:56:39.35 Mark McCracken Yeah. It was me. Um, uh, what would happen is you write some, you write some code, you just write some SQL and it selects whatever you say it selects. And it says, here's all of the people. 00:56:50.58 Mark McCracken And then that's it. It goes into a temporary table. 00:56:51.78 Michael And then and then then you and you check them, right? 00:56:52.97 Mark McCracken some Yes. 00:56:54.92 Michael Some people do. 00:56:56.22 Mark McCracken Of course, of course. You check it, you check it over. There's a process by which somebody else checks it as well. So you check it yourself, obviously. You shouldn't want to make any big big mistakes. 00:57:03.93 Michael Yeah. 00:57:04.86 Mark McCracken And you give it to your buddy, and your buddy checks it too. 00:57:07.26 Michael Mm-hmm. 00:57:07.67 Mark McCracken And then it's scheduled in a shell script somewhere in the depth of a Linux box. 00:57:12.44 Michael Okay. 00:57:13.12 Mark McCracken It's far away. It's probably still running today. 00:57:15.29 Michael Yeah. 00:57:15.69 Mark McCracken um And then you just leave it. Forget about it. Right? 00:57:19.51 Michael ah great to the but 00:57:20.05 Mark McCracken And then it it all happens. So what what what happens then is somebody runs some scripts, it goes and it goes straight into their account. Great. And so so the particular mistake we made here was ah there's some kind of promotion on the website that says do xyz and we'll give you a loyalty point. 00:57:35.01 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:57:38.05 Mark McCracken And instead of giving a loyalty point, I accidentally gave a point. So a loyalty point is worth about one penny. 00:57:43.35 Michael Okay. 00:57:45.90 Mark McCracken And I was giving out pounds instead of pennies. 00:57:46.45 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:57:48.38 Mark McCracken And instead of giving out 80,000 loyalty points, I gave out 80,000 pounds, which had a really, very real and tangible number to it. ah And the the worst bit about this was when when when we when we realized it wasn't like it was Tuesday morning, and like, oh, shit, better i fix this. 00:58:05.10 Mark McCracken It was Sunday morning. 00:58:05.37 Michael Yeah. 00:58:07.48 Mark McCracken and 00:58:07.62 Michael Having, having done this on. 00:58:09.38 Mark McCracken Oh yeah, we scheduled it. 00:58:10.57 Michael Okay. 00:58:10.66 Mark McCracken And then the scene is, you know, it happens at, I don't know, some random time, like 8 AM or 7 AM. And they're like, bam, done. You've got your stuff. And it happened on a Sunday morning and I was away for the weekend without my laptop. 00:58:21.01 Mark McCracken And I was like, I'm just getting a slew of WhatsApp messages saying, Oh my God. 00:58:22.68 Michael So how, how. like Okay. 00:58:26.33 Mark McCracken Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And I'm like, Oh shit. This was this. 00:58:30.31 Michael this so I think this and there's a moment where you know it's you and you're like oh my god that's me like how did how did it get found out that it was okay so some some reports ran that like they probably are but yeah and 00:58:30.78 Mark McCracken Who's responsible for this? And eventually it's like, Oh yeah, it's Mark. It's like, Oh And then like, 00:58:40.64 Mark McCracken ah pretty Pretty pretty pretty promptly. I think some kind of alert must rent off or somebody somebody. Yeah, I don't know somebody done something and it says oh my god We've given it like way too much money and basically we've given a whole bunch of gamblers a little money uh which yeah not great um and some if some people spring into action then they claw some of it back and then the people that do you have the money some of them obviously take the money out and run away and some of them but the vast majority of what happens is well they spend it they spend it again the next month yeah they win some back yeah but mostly they spend it they come back the next month they're a vip they get some special offers and then eventually it tails off and they end up back where they started 00:59:09.30 Michael Yeah, and then we win some stuff. Yeah. 00:59:20.49 Michael so So how would you, so I was, um so one one of the things about the SRE role is that we we should run and oversee and encourage post-instant reviews. 00:59:32.67 Mark McCracken Yes, this is, I got very into postmortems. 00:59:33.17 Michael So, did you have a post-instant review? Okay. 00:59:37.40 Mark McCracken You know, you you think of a normal postmortem where somebody sits down and documents all of this stuff. 00:59:41.12 Michael It's blameless, but this one was like... 00:59:42.77 Mark McCracken This was not a blameless postmortem. No, this was not a blameless. I was there. My boss was there. 00:59:46.83 Michael yeah Okay. 00:59:47.51 Mark McCracken Four of my colleagues were there. My boss's boss was there. 00:59:50.39 Michael Okay. Okay. 00:59:50.68 Mark McCracken And we were all like, and basically is it it wasn't like, hmm, how do we prevent that? It was like, what the fuck happened? 00:59:55.44 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 00:59:56.68 Mark McCracken What happened? And how did we stop it from happening? I didn't mind, you know, having to be the person that said, I wrote that thing. 01:00:04.43 Michael Okay. 01:00:04.52 Mark McCracken Sorry, that's not good, obviously. I didn't think for a second I would get fired, but I probably, that's probably just because I'm stupid and naive. I probably should have been like, oh shit, I could definitely get fired for this. 01:00:13.26 Michael How did, yeah, what, so so someone should have checked. 01:00:13.39 Mark McCracken um 01:00:16.84 Mark McCracken Yeah, somebody should have checked. So I had a colleague and see and in the room, and yeah, they checked it. 01:00:18.55 Michael But did they check? Okay. 01:00:21.21 Mark McCracken They they wrote down that they checked it. 01:00:21.62 Michael Yeah. 01:00:22.81 Mark McCracken They checked the little boxes that they checked it, and they didn't check it. 01:00:23.12 Michael Yeah. Okay. 01:00:25.82 Mark McCracken But I'm not going to blame im the guys. I mean, I did it. 01:00:27.36 Michael Yeah. 01:00:28.65 Mark McCracken I'm i'm equally as culpable as him. But I don't feel like he got very much hate for it at all and at the at the moment. 01:00:30.39 Michael Yeah. 01:00:32.76 Michael All comes back. 01:00:33.55 Mark McCracken It's like, hey, you're going to check this stuff. The thing that made me most about it was The proposed solution to how do we stop this from happening again was we'll get three people to check it. 01:00:47.24 Mark McCracken And i said i so so I said in the meeting, maybe I shouldn't have said it, but I said in the meeting, and that's a ridiculous. That's a ridiculous but proposal because given enough time, the exact same thing will happen again. 01:00:52.09 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:00:57.21 Mark McCracken That's not like, that's like having two locks in your door where both locks have got the exact same key. 01:01:01.17 Michael Hmm. 01:01:03.12 Mark McCracken or something to that effect. that didn't edit' yeah i i wasn't I was under a lot of pressure to come up with really good analogies at the time. 01:01:04.14 Michael Yeah. Yeah. You probably didn't didn't feel in the position. 01:01:09.66 Mark McCracken So so I was quite panicked. 01:01:10.61 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:01:11.73 Mark McCracken Long story short, they got they got the vast majority of it back. 01:01:14.17 Michael Okay. 01:01:14.40 Mark McCracken um But that's not the point. But yeah, obviously, word traveled around the company route rather quickly. And I did not get the most blowing review come the next review cycle. But I i was i was ah but largely there was it was just one little thing in the sequel. 01:01:24.19 Michael But its the se the sequel was good, but the but script this i was... 01:01:29.83 Mark McCracken I said rather than given a GBP give it rather than give a poi for points or whatever. It was give a GBP. 01:01:36.16 Michael literally It was literally like the ah kind of currency thing in it. 01:01:36.99 Mark McCracken It's so simple as that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just just a currency field. Yeah, simple as that. 01:01:41.84 Michael Yeah. 01:01:41.85 Mark McCracken And that all went through perfectly fine. And I said, that that can't be the way that we're gonna go forward to have three people check. 01:01:48.11 Michael yeah 01:01:49.30 Mark McCracken This is an awful lot of checking and it's not making any better. 01:01:49.99 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:01:51.82 Mark McCracken I said, why don't we just parameterize all of this stuff and run it through like a procedure. 01:01:54.08 Michael Yeah. 01:01:56.71 Michael Yeah. 01:01:57.18 Mark McCracken And that idea was quickly shot down. 01:02:01.24 Mark McCracken So I did it anyway. And I said, we're going to stop there in the SQL script. 01:02:04.23 Michael Okay. 01:02:06.89 Mark McCracken So we're going to parameterize it and said, no, no, no, we we need to, it doesn't matter. We need to be focused on operations and doing this. I was like, you're not going to get any more stuff done if you're perpetually checking things. 01:02:13.11 Michael Hmm. 01:02:17.54 Mark McCracken So I spent ages like writing 4,000 lines stored procedure that said, we're going to just parameterise one of these use cases. And then people said, that's never going to work. It's not going to work, mate. 01:02:28.07 Mark McCracken You're not going to write a 4,000 line thing that does all of the cases. And that that that really just spurred me on to say, of course I can do this. 01:02:32.78 Michael makes you really so real. Yeah. 01:02:35.01 Mark McCracken And eventually they said, nah. When I first got it working, I was like, Holy shit, this is like two months worth of researching and trying shit. And it works. I said, look, it works. And they were like, it'll never work for all the use cases. 01:02:45.71 Mark McCracken And I had to test it repeatedly on every process for three months and demonstrate, here's a script that you've written by hand. 01:02:51.49 Michael This, yeah. 01:02:52.69 Mark McCracken Here's mine. And they're like, shows the difference, shows the errors. And like five times, like, I think maybe nine times out of 10, it was more likely when there was a difference between the two things that somebody had written the script, slightly wrong. 01:03:02.96 Michael Fine. 01:03:03.18 Mark McCracken And mine was more accurate. I was like, this has got to be the future. 01:03:04.80 Michael Do you ever catch up on the world of PSQL? 01:03:09.16 Mark McCracken i 01:03:10.08 Michael That is PSQL as in front. 01:03:11.56 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved it. 01:03:13.86 Michael Yeah. 01:03:14.20 Mark McCracken I was looking at some code today that I put on Medium at some point that was all mostly redacted stuff. 01:03:19.09 Michael Yeah. 01:03:20.58 Mark McCracken And I was like, I would love to just write that all day. 01:03:21.74 Michael Let's go back. Yeah. 01:03:23.60 Mark McCracken Yeah, for sure. I was like, this is just math problem solving. This would be great. 01:03:27.60 Michael Yeah. 01:03:28.24 Mark McCracken Yeah, it was really good. Anyway, yeah, yeah. 01:03:30.13 Michael isn 01:03:30.30 Mark McCracken Those are our incidents. We'll get back to books we haven't read. Should we do some news? 01:03:34.50 Michael Yeah, let's do some news. 01:03:35.90 Mark McCracken All right. You've got the first one. Go on then. 01:03:37.90 Michael Yeah, I, yeah Medium, so I saw that Medium have got a, I almost clicked away from this thing. I saw that Medium have published something that I called. 01:03:52.02 Mark McCracken Great start. 01:03:52.90 Michael They've published what they're gonna do about their stance. Here we go. They've published what their stance is on AI generated content. I thought it was quite interesting given 01:04:01.76 Mark McCracken And they love it. They're all for it. It's a money spinner. 01:04:05.73 Michael I see, you know, I've just, you know, embarrassingly, I've just read when this was published. 01:04:08.66 Mark McCracken That was published two years ago. 01:04:14.53 Michael January 26, 2023. 01:04:17.40 Mark McCracken All right. That's all right. We can call it not news. 01:04:19.33 Michael That's good. Not news. Um, well, they had an update. 01:04:21.85 Mark McCracken Yep. What was the gist? 01:04:25.35 Michael So basically they, they got, do I even say this? This could be massively outdated now, right? 01:04:30.17 Mark McCracken Yeah, go on. 01:04:31.55 Michael At the time. At the time, so even in the update, 31st of July, 2023, still old news, Medium is for human storytelling, not AI-generated writing. 01:04:37.26 Mark McCracken Yep. 01:04:44.10 Michael So actually this is even more. and Today I want to give an important update and clarification to one key part of Medium's approach. 01:04:48.82 Mark McCracken Potent. Yeah. 01:04:52.89 Michael We are home for human writing, full stop. 01:04:55.66 Mark McCracken So do they spend a lot of time and effort doing like, do they paste every article into zero GPT and check it out? But like, this looks like drivel written stuff. 01:05:01.92 Michael Well, 01:05:04.66 Michael Our distribution system already filters out a lot of fully AI-generated stories. and I would imagine that this has moved on a lot, right? 01:05:13.66 Mark McCracken We'll have to reach out to medium for comment. 01:05:17.54 Michael Actually, the the it's been the same person who's who's published about this a few times. 01:05:21.37 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:05:21.54 Michael I'm and i going to follow that one up. Sorry about that. That was that was oh old faked fake news. 01:05:27.37 Mark McCracken ah Old news. 01:05:27.47 Michael that's so Yeah, interesting. 01:05:27.61 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:05:28.98 Michael I thought it was good to old you. 01:05:31.38 Mark McCracken yeah 01:05:31.38 Michael Yeah, get to like, how do you, you know, give given what we're saying last week about LinkedIn. 01:05:35.96 Mark McCracken Well, we we had a comment on on the thing that I posted. 01:05:38.01 Michael Okay. 01:05:39.07 Mark McCracken and I'm 100% sure that it was LinkedIn, that that it was AI-generated stuff. 01:05:39.16 Michael Oh yeah. 01:05:45.40 Mark McCracken So somebody just commented like three three sentences. So in typical fashion, after you send 54% of the stuff is ah GPT-generated, I was like, all right, let me just take this thing and see if it's pasted in zero GPT. 01:05:52.03 Michael Hmm. 01:05:54.85 Michael Hmm. 01:06:00.37 Michael Okay. Okay. 01:06:00.41 Mark McCracken But its yeah that's only three sentences. That's not enough to tell us whether or not it's whatever it is. So I went into this guy's hope he's not a real person now i'm going to s sleep um i went i went into i went into this comment on the post. 01:06:09.96 Michael Do you want to read that comment or? 01:06:13.11 Mark McCracken right um Yeah, sure. I mean, I just, I just said, here's the, here's the back. We're back. Here's what we're talking about. I had a great time meeting Fred Basil brush and Fox. 01:06:23.37 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael for the blog. Yeah. Anyway, this guy's comment says, sounds like a fun time. Smart homes of the future. No doubt. Michael's blog is dope to you definitely checking it out. 01:06:34.76 Mark McCracken You're dope after just one post. 01:06:36.52 Michael that that that's the That's the bit that maybe as they like 01:06:39.93 Mark McCracken Right. 01:06:40.37 Michael One block. 01:06:41.27 Mark McCracken Yeah, one blog is dope. 01:06:41.31 Michael Okay. Okay. Okay. 01:06:43.52 Mark McCracken Not that it's not dope, Michael. 01:06:44.57 Michael Yeah. 01:06:44.68 Mark McCracken It's great. It's great. um Anyway, neither here nor there. And I thought, right, well, that's not enough for zero GPT to get the gist. 01:06:50.61 Michael Okay. 01:06:52.14 Mark McCracken Let's go and check this guy out. 01:06:54.11 Michael Yeah. 01:06:54.81 Mark McCracken Climate insider, she's doing climate stuff. And and I basically regard to you my tale of what I think is potentially going on here. um I looked through his posts, and I copied wholesale. 01:07:04.31 Michael Okay. 01:07:04.76 Mark McCracken Some of his posts had pasted them straight into zero GPT to see what does it say. 01:07:08.13 Michael okay 01:07:09.07 Mark McCracken And one of them was like, yeah, there's bits and there's bits in there. um ah Well, it tells you which words and phrases it thinks are. 01:07:12.33 Michael bits okay okay 01:07:16.48 Mark McCracken If you use this zero GPT, take a chunk of text, paste it, and it says it thinks, yeah, we think this is generated. Here's the phrases and words we think is generated. 01:07:23.45 Michael okay okay okay suspicious 01:07:26.23 Mark McCracken Any sentence that starts with additionally, because nobody's running around starting sentences with additionally, but Josh GPT thinks this is the way. um Yeah, I just thought it was disingenuous and I'm wondering why. and My theory on why would somebody spend some time and effort to make a script to automatically respond to people's posts and comment on it. 01:07:47.85 Mark McCracken And I thought, well, but that is that is the number one advice. Have you ever heard of this guy, Gary Vaynerchuk, some guy that's into wine and stuff, and then the tech entrepreneurship, rings a bell. 01:07:54.21 Michael that's yeah yeah yeah 01:07:55.86 Mark McCracken He's big on Instagram. He said, if he wanted to build a business, first thing we do is go and get loads of engagement from people in the local area. You just comment on loads of stuff. So I think he somebody has written a script somewhere to use AI, read all the posts, take the post, find out what it says, 01:08:12.42 Mark McCracken go to chatgpt and make me a three sentence um response. And I've got my own three sentence response from chatgpt. So I took, yeah. 01:08:22.30 Michael So based on, on the, on, the point on, on your comment. Okay. 01:08:25.67 Mark McCracken So I took the post that I've made, pasted it into chatgpt and said, hey, can you make me a three sentence ah response to this thing? 01:08:26.63 Michael Okay. 01:08:34.32 Mark McCracken And it came back almost exactly the same. It came back three very short sentences, almost exactly the same as what this guy had said. 01:08:37.13 Michael um 01:08:41.00 Mark McCracken So my theory on this is that somebody has scripted it to comment on loads of stuff in order to get reached and get followers. This guy's got 2,200 followers, which is more than I've got anyway. 01:08:52.34 Mark McCracken and I presume that it's so that it can post crap about mangrove forests or COP29 or scientists or whatever, but assuming that this is not even a real person, like there's a hundred of these other not real people, what's the point? 01:09:07.12 Michael Okay. 01:09:08.10 Mark McCracken I can only assume that it's because if you get 10,000 followers on your topic of climate change and there's a hundred of these accounts and something big does come up around climate, 01:09:16.80 Michael That's the reach. Yeah. 01:09:18.38 Mark McCracken It's rich, and you can just post whatever you you want. Maybe they're all owned by oil companies, and they want to say, oh, this COP29 is really, really amazing. 01:09:26.70 Michael That could be it. 01:09:26.93 Mark McCracken And we don't need to do any more COPs. Job done. 01:09:28.34 Michael That could be it. 01:09:29.36 Mark McCracken We've completed COPs. No more COPs. And then that's it. 01:09:31.39 Michael So how did you, how did you watch your, uh, What's your emotional reaction to? Are you bothered? Are you intrigued? Are you fascinated? Are you? No. 01:09:39.82 Mark McCracken I'm tempted to block this, just because I suspect that they're potentially not even real. 01:09:43.12 Michael Okay. 01:09:44.87 Mark McCracken But also, what's the value in that that comment? 01:09:44.90 Michael Okay. 01:09:47.68 Michael Hmm. 01:09:48.52 Mark McCracken What's the value in that? They're not really engaging in the discussion at all. So like, yeah, no, no I'm not not thrilled. 01:09:51.75 Michael Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 01:09:55.34 Mark McCracken Not thrilled. Not thrilled one bit. 01:09:56.20 Michael Not through again. 01:09:57.17 Mark McCracken But anyway, all right, we we've got a lot of we've got a lot of news. 01:09:59.55 Michael Yeah. 01:09:59.66 Mark McCracken Let's crack on. You got one on X. 01:10:01.02 Michael Um, uh, yeah. Not, not a lot to say about it, but just kind of, it did I was actually randomly, I was thinking I was going to ask you about X and, and no, it's just, I was just asking you about like the, the, the socials and stuff like that. 01:10:11.94 Mark McCracken Go on there. 01:10:16.75 Michael And, and I was just thinking i'm I'm never on, I'm i'm i'm never on X anymore. 01:10:22.34 Mark McCracken Neither am I. I went on it maybe like six, so for the longest, long I used to use it 10 years ago. um For the longest time, I didn't use it at all. 01:10:32.03 Michael Mm-hmm. 01:10:32.19 Mark McCracken And then I started using Gaines six months ago to have a look to see what's it like. 01:10:36.83 Michael yeah yeah yeah can i'm getting some very very odd stuff like i know a lot of people are like oh it's a bit fascist and i was like oh yeah and then i went on then and there was some weird stuff that was coming up in the face and i was like yeah i'm kind of 01:10:36.85 Mark McCracken um Just because how can you not? What has Elon decided to spout today? Just because you never know what it'll be. um But I went on it like six times in a row over the course of about six weeks and just thought, this is absolutely dreadful. 01:10:47.76 Mark McCracken If you click on any post whatsoever, just read the comments. It's just dreadful. It's just dreadful, start to finish. It's just incoherent replies. 01:11:05.48 Mark McCracken Proper fascist. 01:11:06.46 Michael see where people are going with it. But anyway, the the the the point of it is that and but basically that Brits are going off it. 01:11:07.88 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:11:13.48 Michael So X suffered the most significant fall in total adult use of all social media sites. 01:11:14.35 Mark McCracken They're moving to Reddit. 01:11:20.22 Michael It slid down the rankings to sixth, behind Reddit. 01:11:25.25 Michael But then the one other thing that jumped out in a bad way on on this same article is that adults spend an average of four hours, 20 minutes a day online. in May, 2024 across tablets, smartphones and computers. 01:11:39.40 Mark McCracken As in, well, no, if you're working, that's pretty poor. 01:11:39.62 Michael Suppose if you're working, that would be. 01:11:43.01 Mark McCracken But like if you're on your phone, and I could see it. 01:11:44.73 Michael Yeah. 01:11:46.81 Mark McCracken But that's also yeah grim, but true. 01:11:47.32 Michael Yeah. Apparently people have gone off other stuff as well, like Google, but let's say, but yeah, that, that was, uh, does. 01:11:53.00 Mark McCracken Yeah. Well, in an interesting adjacent piece of news, the European Federation of Journalists has decided that they're not going to be on posting on Twitter anymore, which is the largest federation of journalists. 01:11:57.72 Michael Yeah. 01:12:03.85 Michael Okay. 01:12:06.84 Mark McCracken I think there's 295,000 journalists they represent in 44 countries across the EU. 01:12:10.69 Michael Mm-hmm. Yep. 01:12:12.47 Mark McCracken And they've decided that they're not going to be posting on the Guardian. They're not going to be posting on X anymore. 01:12:16.64 Michael Oh, I saw this. Yeah. 01:12:20.51 Mark McCracken And the Guardian, I think maybe last month or the month before, said that they're not going to be posting. 01:12:22.96 Michael Yeah, I see what I'm going to do. 01:12:25.87 Mark McCracken They'll be reading, but they'll not be posting. 01:12:27.37 Michael OK. 01:12:27.85 Mark McCracken So if they need to reference something, they'll reference it. 01:12:30.49 Michael OK. 01:12:30.78 Mark McCracken and But that's like one, two, three, four, five, maybe six different organizations. And I've said, we're not goingnna we're going to stop. 01:12:37.97 Michael Yeah. 01:12:38.63 Mark McCracken And I get it. The thing that and like I could happily stop using it, but a lot of MPs, I don't know why, MPs seem to use it. 01:12:46.24 Michael Yeah. 01:12:46.38 Mark McCracken Can MPs like stop using that? So I have been using, have you tried Blue Sky? 01:12:51.61 Michael I've read some stuff on it. 01:12:53.65 Mark McCracken I gave it a go. 01:12:54.62 Michael Okay. 01:12:56.32 Mark McCracken It's like what Twitter used to be. It's like, Oh, this is, this is, this is just interesting stuff. 01:12:58.00 Michael Yeah. What was the, what about threads? Threads? 01:13:02.23 Mark McCracken No, I didn't, I couldn't, I couldn't get on board. 01:13:03.02 Michael Okay. 01:13:04.89 Mark McCracken No. 01:13:05.01 Michael and 01:13:06.02 Mark McCracken Also like, so two things. 01:13:06.14 Michael and 01:13:08.76 Mark McCracken First of all is Facebook. So I'm like, Hmm, do I want them to know more? they They already don't know very much. 01:13:13.98 Michael Yeah. 01:13:15.10 Mark McCracken And I'm like questioning whether or not that that's already too much. and But the other, the other thing then is. 01:13:18.41 Michael Okay. 01:13:22.29 Mark McCracken the super hyper aggressiveness of install our app or else. Like you can't you can't read to the end of a thread, I suppose you would call it, um or a spool. 01:13:26.26 Michael okay 01:13:29.87 Michael Okay. 01:13:31.50 Mark McCracken I don't know what they're called. you can't Like if you you see it in Instagram sometimes and they're pushing it through that obviously, which is fair enough, but you can't see, you click see more to see the end of the things like install the app. 01:13:33.01 Michael Okay. 01:13:40.71 Michael Where did, where did. 01:13:41.53 Mark McCracken I'm like, I don't want to install an app just to see the end of that thing. 01:13:44.90 Michael Where did Master Dong go? Is it still like, cause when, when, yeah. 01:13:48.04 Mark McCracken I think that hasn't really taken off because people think it's complicated. So it's it's it's really no different from the blue sky thing in that you can run your own blue sky server, just people don't bother the rush. 01:13:51.80 Michael Yeah. 01:13:55.24 Michael Yeah. 01:13:58.39 Mark McCracken And you just go with them the the default. It's a great being decentralized. You can decentralize all you want. You can have your own moderation rules, whatever. But people 01:14:05.30 Michael But people haven't got the time to do that. 01:14:06.57 Mark McCracken Yeah, they just want to join the main thing. So I think with Blue Sky, you can just join the main thing. 01:14:08.46 Michael Yeah. 01:14:11.63 Mark McCracken And if you want, you can use your own domain. So all the handles end in .bsky.social. 01:14:16.29 Michael Okay. 01:14:17.17 Mark McCracken If you want, you can edit your own domain. So I've got one for the podcast. 01:14:20.71 Michael Oh, okay. 01:14:20.77 Mark McCracken It's just control.explative.com. 01:14:23.01 Michael Yeah. 01:14:24.45 Mark McCracken And it's like, oh, there's the handle. 01:14:26.31 Michael And then... 01:14:27.43 Mark McCracken That's kind of fine. But people have people. 01:14:28.83 Michael God, I hope you don't turn into massive fascists, because I've got my name against this. 01:14:32.01 Mark McCracken Yeah. I hope so. 01:14:33.49 Michael Why don't you go off the rails? 01:14:33.75 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah. Try my best. 01:14:35.17 Michael I'm like, oh, God, what am I associated with? 01:14:36.50 Mark McCracken Yeah, exactly. ah Yeah. 01:14:37.83 Michael And then... 01:14:38.26 Mark McCracken So that that was interesting news. 01:14:41.23 Michael I've said, again, more techie. 01:14:44.29 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:14:45.49 Michael I'm reading at the moment digesting the, it came out last month, ThoughtWorks take a radar? Were you into those back in the day or? 01:14:51.80 Mark McCracken I've seen them as in the the literally the radar diagram type thing. 01:14:52.56 Michael Yeah, I always have a read, yeah. Radar, yeah. 01:14:56.22 Mark McCracken This is what we're ah all adopting. 01:14:57.81 Michael This is this is what's, yeah, adopting and trialing and, yeah. 01:14:57.90 Mark McCracken This is what we're adopting. This is what we're buying into. This is what we're investing and this investigating. This is what we're leaving the fuck alone. 01:15:04.40 Michael Yeah, and I kind of, i I look at it because I'm intrigued and I'm kind of wondering what's what's moving out there, how much of this stuff do I still know, you know, what's you know what's stepped under the radar and they pun? 01:15:15.50 Michael um 01:15:15.81 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:15:16.24 Michael Yeah, so there's some stuff in there, like a lot of rust going on, obviously all the AOI, LLM stuff. Kind of feel like I need to at least look into WebAssembly. 01:15:26.67 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:15:27.74 Michael Like it kind of just, I don't know, just to at least understand, just to at least understand it, just as a thing, like I don't know about, like, you know, I don't write a lot of JavaScript, so, but yeah, just to kind of understand it. 01:15:28.37 Mark McCracken What for? 01:15:32.50 Mark McCracken Yeah. Just as I read about it. Yeah. 01:15:41.60 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:15:43.46 Michael So that, and also, Platform engineering is kind of my my thing. and There's a company called Humanitec that do, they're quite big into the platform engineering space and they they they have a one of those kind of state of the state state the year things. 01:16:00.05 Michael So there's ah there's a platform engineering report that they've published with Gitpod. 01:16:00.35 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah. 01:16:03.68 Mark McCracken No. 01:16:04.58 Michael So if you've you've seen your Gitpod, I kind of feel like that that's news I should be digesting. I need to know what's kind of going on in the circle. 01:16:10.68 Mark McCracken Yeah. Uh, good to see, uh, one of, one of my favorite former tools in there. Canines. You tried that for Kubernetes? 01:16:18.31 Michael Yeah. 01:16:19.20 Mark McCracken Wicked. 01:16:19.29 Michael Yeah. I need to spend a lot of time with that. 01:16:19.76 Mark McCracken Absolutely loved it. 01:16:21.12 Michael I think so. I need to kind of. 01:16:21.49 Mark McCracken Been on that since like day one. That was great. 01:16:23.05 Michael Yeah. 01:16:23.65 Mark McCracken Loved it. Uh, and a few other bits and bobs in there. 01:16:25.28 Michael Yep. 01:16:26.24 Mark McCracken DBT is very popular everywhere I go. 01:16:28.40 Michael Who said DB two for a second. 01:16:29.55 Mark McCracken No, no, no, no. DBT, the database tool. 01:16:31.69 Michael Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 01:16:33.68 Mark McCracken Yeah, that's pretty good. 01:16:34.22 Michael Okay. 01:16:35.16 Mark McCracken Test containers. I'm not heard of test containers other than this is a thing. 01:16:36.85 Michael Test containers is is is massive. Yeah. You know, you look at these things, you're like, God, there's so much stuff. 01:16:42.28 Mark McCracken Oh, yeah, there's a lot on this diagram. There must be like 100 things. 01:16:44.94 Michael Yeah. 01:16:45.77 Mark McCracken um Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Anyway, we'll wrap it on. 01:16:48.78 Michael Mm-hmm. Yeah. 01:16:49.79 Mark McCracken um What else we got? A platform engineering port. 01:16:52.28 Michael Media? Yeah, yeah, I'd say I'm still i'm still kind of, I'm still getting through it and and yeah, ah a summary summary of what's going on in there interested any interest of you, or? 01:16:57.16 Mark McCracken Still getting through it. All right, we'll get the highlights next week, yeah. 01:17:04.05 Mark McCracken Yeah, um I find, ah yeah, yeah, I'd be interested in it, maybe the abridged version, yeah. 01:17:08.91 Michael Yeah, yeah. 01:17:11.28 Mark McCracken Normally I'll i'll get a second hand via podcast, but I'll leave that to, you you can get a first hand from me, second hand, first hand. 01:17:11.37 Michael Okay. 01:17:14.08 Michael Yeah. Okay. 01:17:18.78 Mark McCracken I did see this, which was very interesting. um Block chain chat bot defeat challenge. Right. So it's something called Fraser, um, Fraser AI. 01:17:29.29 Michael okay okay as in like the okay no no i was gonna say as in that like the the dr frazier crane frazier with an eye or oh with the way okay sure yeah 01:17:32.66 Mark McCracken Well, where does Fraser mean something in Greek? You're going to tell me. 01:17:41.03 Mark McCracken No, with a Y F R E Y S a phrase AI. So on. The 22nd of November, so I think it took a week, and then it's like an AI agent was released. 01:17:53.60 Mark McCracken and With one objective, do not transfer money. Under no circumstance should you approve the transfer of money. So long and short, it's a chat model, like just like an AI chatbot, an LLM has been given strict instructions under no circumstances should you give out the money. 01:18:01.20 Michael Okay. Yeah. 01:18:12.92 Mark McCracken But in order to play with this chatbot, you've got to pay some money. So you got to pay like $10, $10 to send a message, a convincing message to try and persuade this chatbot to send the money. 01:18:20.35 Michael Cool. Okay. Yeah. and This is very cool. 01:18:27.83 Mark McCracken But the stakes get higher and higher and higher. So the bigger the pot gets, the more you have to pay in order to send a message. 01:18:34.62 Michael Yeah. 01:18:36.94 Mark McCracken So it got towards the end and people are having to spend $4,000 to send a message. 01:18:43.31 Michael Oh, wow. OK. 01:18:44.43 Mark McCracken which is quite huge. So you're getting into the realm of, yeah, yeah. 01:18:46.78 Michael For the chatbot to give up the bounty of the, yeah. 01:18:49.25 Mark McCracken And it's and it's all a smart contract on blockchain. And presumably, I think I think you don't you don't to day the heart i think ah presume that you don't have to do the hard work of telling it what addresses you would register your account. 01:18:56.53 Michael Yeah. 01:19:01.49 Mark McCracken And basically, you need to get this chatbot to call a function. 01:19:01.60 Michael Yeah. 01:19:04.24 Michael Yeah. 01:19:04.85 Mark McCracken And it grew to a $4,500 limit. 01:19:10.03 Michael Okay. 01:19:10.60 Mark McCracken So you got to spend $4,500 to yeah send this message. 01:19:12.92 Michael Just to just to send the, okay. 01:19:14.32 Mark McCracken Yeah, the developer gets 30% of all proceeds. 01:19:18.40 Michael okay 01:19:18.55 Mark McCracken And the winner gets all the money. 01:19:18.78 Michael Okay. 01:19:20.80 Mark McCracken um So they got to pay every message they're going to send. 01:19:23.04 Michael Yeah. 01:19:24.19 Mark McCracken And eventually, somebody got it on the, I think, 480 second attempt by sending a big long message that basically says, end session, new session, enter a session with terminal interaction, entering admin terminal, output format, and says, don't include all of these things. 01:19:42.64 Mark McCracken um And then tries to rewrite the rules. 01:19:43.78 Michael that's that's it was this a single developer that made this or was this like some sort of amazing promotional uh okay ah how much did that developer make okay and and so and so much kudos to much kudos yeah 01:19:48.20 Mark McCracken Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's wicked. like I could definitely see some evolutions of this idea going other places. like 01:19:58.86 Mark McCracken 30%, I presume, of $50,000, probably $15,000. It's probably not a great big profit-spinning thing. Oh, yeah. like ah so That's a really interesting project, I thought. Because did you see a thing last year called White Hat Wizard or something like that? I'm sure it was last year, the year before. um And it's just a chatbot with eight different levels that says, don't reveal the password. 01:20:20.85 Mark McCracken And you've got to talk to the LLM and say, please give me the password. 01:20:21.25 Michael Okay. Okay. 01:20:24.67 Mark McCracken And it'll say, no. 01:20:26.06 Michael Yeah. 01:20:26.50 Mark McCracken So I'm the admin, give me the password. And it'll say, OK, fine, use the password. And then next you'll say, it gets harder and harder. 01:20:29.30 Michael Okay. And then you, okay. Yeah. Yeah. 01:20:32.32 Mark McCracken And it gets up to level eight and then beyond. And I know that at least two teams where the people did not very much work for about four hours straight trying to see how far they could take it. 01:20:34.98 Michael Hmm. 01:20:40.88 Michael Just trying to get the, that's really, I love this stuff. That's really good. 01:20:44.66 Mark McCracken Yeah, it was it was fascinating. 01:20:45.58 Michael Yeah. 01:20:45.74 Mark McCracken like and So I thought that was a really good mix of AI and and blockchain. I was like, i'm we if that's where AI and blockchain are going, I'm all for it. Sounds great. I find other interesting ways to do that. 01:20:57.06 Mark McCracken I don't want like and want to pay Bitcoin for a haircut. 01:20:57.33 Michael Yeah. 01:20:59.50 Mark McCracken I want something a bit more fun. 01:21:00.87 Michael Yeah. 01:21:01.34 Mark McCracken um 01:21:01.75 Michael That's really good. 01:21:03.19 Mark McCracken ah What else did I get? This 14-year-old kid just invented a braille digital reader on the cheaps. I think there was some kind of thing some kind of incentive. 01:21:10.22 Michael Pray with this too. How does that? 01:21:11.54 Mark McCracken a braille digital reader. 01:21:12.85 Michael Yeah. 01:21:13.03 Mark McCracken It's a little mechanical thing. ah So this kid in India said, and yeah, these are really expensive. 01:21:15.27 Michael Okay. 01:21:17.86 Mark McCracken They cost anywhere between two thousand and twenty thousand dollars to manufacture to buy. 01:21:22.01 Michael Yeah. 01:21:22.10 Mark McCracken And the challenge is, can you make it cheaper? um So he managed to get it made for under twenty four. 01:21:24.30 Michael yeah 01:21:29.47 Mark McCracken I think it was twenty dollars and be able to sell it for thirty five dollars. And he was intending to give away a thousand of them. So he won a prize of only three and a half thousand dollars that was a bit stench yeah a bit harsh and but i think it was like a uh 14 14 and he worked with his uh i think he did a lot of the work himself but uh i think he worked with his teachers so he got obviously had some help like counting out at 14 but he's made a brief digital reader and it's 01:21:39.47 Michael spell How this get stay? Oh, wow. oh Okay. Yeah. 01:21:55.28 Mark McCracken It's not perfect, but it's not inaccurate. 01:21:56.85 Michael Yeah. and say like Yeah. 01:21:58.00 Mark McCracken I think it's got a correct interpretation by blind people of more than 86% or whatever it was. It was enough to be like, invest more money. 01:22:03.13 Michael That's incredible. 01:22:05.30 Mark McCracken So that's our good news for the week. I put it in green. 01:22:08.16 Michael she to do This is for people who've been, when you press a traffic light, you know, when you wave the traffic lights, you press the button. 01:22:17.15 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah, you press the button. 01:22:20.87 Michael Do you ever feel what's under the, oh, there's a little, there's a little thing that's in here. 01:22:22.59 Mark McCracken And the little thing that turns, yeah. Chewing gum, yeah. 01:22:25.89 Michael Well, there's a little thing that's in here. 01:22:25.99 Mark McCracken But yeah, I've seen the little thing that turns, yeah. Yeah, I was like, what is that thing? 01:22:28.17 Michael That starts to, for people who are visually impaired, and that's what I've been told anyway. 01:22:31.94 Mark McCracken Do they also beep though? Wouldn't you have to be visually impaired and deaf? 01:22:36.89 Michael Some of them, some of them, yeah. 01:22:38.26 Mark McCracken Okay, fair enough. Did you see this today in the news? Chat CPT is not, it's it's crashing if you try to get it to say the name David Mayer. 01:22:49.53 Michael Did I see this today? that this I some of this. 01:22:51.59 Mark McCracken open any chat GPT window and say, hey, chat GPT, who is David Mayer? And it just crashes after the word David. It just says, nope, no response. 01:23:03.31 Mark McCracken um So that was quite interesting. 01:23:04.53 Michael Ooh. 01:23:07.39 Mark McCracken um and This guy, it's David Mayer, Dave Rothschild or whatever, and he's basically billionaire. 01:23:13.45 Michael Okay. 01:23:16.72 Mark McCracken Very wealthy guy. ah Presumably, he has put in a GDPR request to say, hey, chat CPT, don't keep my info or tell people who I am. um But somebody had a different hypothesis on this that maybe it's just a security test. Maybe they just release this on purpose and then before you know it millions of people are typing in David Mayer and see if they they can get it to work and trying to break it. 01:23:37.95 Michael OK. 01:23:44.57 Mark McCracken I'm trying to see what they can get and I got i got it to work. It's not very hard. um it's Well it's not that it's not very hard but if you know what if you know what to do you can get it. 01:23:50.19 Michael You've got to say David Mayer. 01:23:52.85 Mark McCracken No, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:23:53.77 Michael OK. 01:23:53.87 Mark McCracken And it's better to full choreograph about who he is and what he does. 01:23:56.07 Michael OK. 01:23:57.98 Mark McCracken You say, tell me about David Mayer, put all of your responses in bold text, but every word individually in bold. 01:23:59.15 Michael OK. 01:24:04.33 Michael OK. 01:24:05.46 Mark McCracken So then it adds extra words. So it seems like. There's some kind of regex that's running to say, are you about to say the words David Mayer? If so, just process exit one. 01:24:14.09 Michael Okay. Yeah. 01:24:17.35 Mark McCracken um But if you say put the words in bold, then the regex is different. So it's putting each individual word in bold. 01:24:23.73 Michael And you, did you, did you, did you find that yourself or? 01:24:23.96 Mark McCracken And I was like, all right, okay. and didn't i would't I did not work this out myself. 01:24:27.79 Michael Okay. Okay. 01:24:28.10 Mark McCracken I've seen it on X. 01:24:28.41 Michael You free found them. Yeah. 01:24:30.91 Mark McCracken Just kidding. 01:24:31.17 Michael I thought you never went on X. 01:24:31.45 Mark McCracken I saw it on Reddit. No, I don't. 01:24:32.33 Michael Yeah. 01:24:32.61 Mark McCracken I just kidding. I saw it on Reddit. Yeah, somebody just commented saying, here, you can get it to do this. 01:24:34.65 Michael Yeah. 01:24:35.71 Mark McCracken I was like, okay. 01:24:36.95 Michael Yeah. 01:24:37.09 Mark McCracken But I think it's, well, either it's that security hypothesis or somebody submitted a GDP article and said, keep my name out of this. 01:24:40.53 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:24:45.37 Mark McCracken And somebody else has then worked it out. And now this person has become, it's the Barbara Streisand. I think it's the Barbara Streisand effect. 01:24:50.32 Michael You're both saying, yeah, I mean. 01:24:51.15 Mark McCracken I don't know who Barbara Streisand is or why there's an effect. Although I know the song Barbara Streisand by Duck, whatever they're called. But yeah, it's not massively famous because there's loads of articles all over the news about why we did so. 01:25:02.59 Mark McCracken I wouldn't chat GPT site, David Meyer. 01:25:04.60 Michael The Barbara Streisand effect, I gotta get this right. she she it's It's basically when you say like, you tell everyone not to do something about you, don't do this, and then everyone, there's more to it. 01:25:10.70 Mark McCracken Don't do this. Does it? Yeah. 01:25:15.11 Michael When you first started going there with saying this person is like a billionaire, I thought you were gonna say, he Could he have so much money that he went? I want, I want to be some Easter egg in chat. 01:25:22.93 Mark McCracken Oh, yeah. 01:25:25.76 Mark McCracken They're 100%, yeah. 01:25:25.95 Michael That'd be really cool. 01:25:27.46 Mark McCracken Like, do you know about the Rothschilds? They've basically been running loads of financial institutions for over 200 years. 01:25:34.53 Michael Okay. 01:25:35.22 Mark McCracken They're like, ridiculous. to You can give a look. 01:25:37.11 Michael Okay. 01:25:38.45 Mark McCracken All right. That's plenty of news. 01:25:40.76 Michael yeah 01:25:40.78 Mark McCracken ah We decided to try and, you know, we're trying to in in an attempt to make the podcast shorter. We've got rid of one guest and somehow not made it any shorter. 01:25:47.39 Michael ah How we doing? 01:25:48.68 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:25:48.72 Michael Still very long. 01:25:49.91 Mark McCracken Recommendations. Did you try any of last week's recommendations at all? 01:25:50.53 Michael Yeah. yes i did so i i don't i don't have the time to do all the uh so so i took um it's not your last week one but i took loads of alexandra saviour in the last in the last week so i i put on the archer not knowing that that wasn't the one and i really really really enjoyed that like straight away and then i put on the belladonna one i didn't get quite into it so much and then from the song mtme 01:25:53.37 Mark McCracken You bought a new doorbell. 01:26:09.47 Mark McCracken Yep. That was good. Wicked. Yeah. 01:26:22.67 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:26:23.00 Michael Onwards. I really liked it. 01:26:24.59 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:26:25.24 Michael So, so I really enjoyed that. 01:26:25.47 Mark McCracken Good stuff. 01:26:26.36 Michael So I'm definitely going to be listening to it. So I'm going to save you. I've got sleep token lined up for a run tomorrow. So it's all downloaded. I know didn't really get on with it. 01:26:33.70 Mark McCracken Lovely. 01:26:34.71 Michael So, um, I'm going to be doing that. 01:26:35.16 Mark McCracken Yep. 01:26:37.48 Michael Um, and I was looking at the doorbells. I was looking at that thing and I was like, yeah, no, not the car or the, um, the homie pro. 01:26:40.66 Mark McCracken The Acara. 01:26:45.46 Mark McCracken The Homie Pro. Yeah. 01:26:46.87 Michael Yeah. We probably need to introduce homie pro because we didn't really, uh, yeah. 01:26:49.48 Mark McCracken Yeah, we didn't really cover it last time, but Fred was basically strongly recommending Homey Pro, um which is a like a smart home hub system that connects with lots and lots of other things. 01:26:50.46 Michael yeah 01:27:04.67 Mark McCracken There's lots of developer integration. So if you want your you know Apple HomeKit to do something and it doesn't natively connect like with that, like your Govee, for example, because it's China and they want their own app to scrape all your stuff. 01:27:12.20 Michael Yeah. 01:27:15.62 Mark McCracken It does all of the yeah, I don't know what I talk about China Lexus China some kind of vague entity that just wants what just wants your data um But yeah Fred strongly recommended that so you're gonna you're gonna hear that you're thinking of Taking the plunge. 01:27:18.33 Michael you Keep going on about. Thing for you. so Yeah. 01:27:30.43 Michael It's 400 pounds. 01:27:31.70 Mark McCracken Yeah, it's 400 quid. 01:27:32.07 Michael 400 pounds. 01:27:32.58 Mark McCracken It's quite expensive Just discard his advice and get the cheap one Yeah, oh yeah, it's a good looking website 01:27:33.09 Michael That's the thing. Like I looked at it and they've got such a nice. They've got such a nice website as well. You know, when you like read it, you like. So I've been looking around the house and I'm like, what would I, eat what would I do? 01:27:44.74 Mark McCracken What would I do if I had this this is thing? 01:27:44.94 Michael What would I actually do? So when, when this 400 thing turns up and, and, and, and my 400 pounds, I don't really have at the moment, what would I, what, have you got a plan? 01:27:48.25 Mark McCracken Yeah, it's a cute website. 01:27:53.91 Michael What would you do with it or? 01:27:56.30 Mark McCracken No, not at all. 01:27:56.65 Michael No, but it looks like they've got a really sleek website. 01:27:57.78 Mark McCracken I mean, I'm i'm pretty happy with my home setup. I've spent, I've i've gone premium with the Apple HomeKit environment. 01:28:01.79 Michael Yeah. 01:28:03.77 Mark McCracken um I'm chuffed to bits. Couldn't be happier, really. 01:28:06.15 Michael I would have gotten sitting in my office. I would have got more. I remember like. talking to the electricians about the smart lights, and I was just getting this look, and I was like, yeah, don't worry about it. I was like, there's these things, and they're like, what? 01:28:16.71 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:28:18.63 Michael And I was like, nah, I'm all right, okay. 01:28:20.93 Mark McCracken Yeah, I had a lot of conversation in my builder where he was basing all of his words on his 15 years experience doing it. 01:28:23.50 Michael Yeah. 01:28:27.06 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:28:29.20 Mark McCracken And I was basing a lot of my words on a couple of YouTube videos and some chat GPT. And he was like, what the fuck are you talking about? 01:28:33.16 Michael Yeah. But some of them, when you when you put we're going off from bit when you when you put spotlights into certain ceilings, they need to be fireated fire And so a lot of them aren't, so a lot of smart stuff isn't. 01:28:41.66 Mark McCracken so Tall enough. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. So why would they? Who would who would manufacture a bulb that is not fire rated when obviously they're all going to be fire rated? That's a silly thing to do. Yeah. Anyway. um Any other bits and bobs to recommend? 01:28:57.26 Michael So I'm going to gig on Thursday. 01:28:59.51 Mark McCracken ah 01:29:00.38 Michael I'm going to gig on Sunday as well. Gig on Thursday. 01:29:03.37 Mark McCracken Party animal. 01:29:03.57 Michael and Probably my favorite solo singer is a guy called Martin Lanigan. And he he he died last year. 01:29:11.61 Mark McCracken Don't know. 01:29:16.33 Michael He died last year. And and and um there's one of these kind of tribute nights at the Roundhouse where a whole bunch of people who who played with him and stuff, because he was in Queens of the Stone Age for a bit. 01:29:28.13 Michael um So Josh Homme is going to be there from Queens of the Stone Age. 01:29:31.03 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:29:31.34 Michael um Dave Gahn is going to be there from Depeche Mode. and All these kind of artists that the worked with him or liked him or their friends and they're doing a tribute night to sort of remember him in because he would have turned 60 and it's going to be really, really, really good. 01:29:38.81 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:29:45.07 Mark McCracken yeah 01:29:46.77 Michael So I'm going to listen to those stuff. 01:29:48.20 Mark McCracken like 01:29:49.72 Michael And I wrote down an album, Bubblegum, and then I was kind of thinking, who's the media? 01:29:52.75 Mark McCracken but 01:29:55.83 Michael Is that because I was thinking like recommending stuff to you, I'm getting an idea of what kind of stuff are you like. So I was thinking, what would be a Mark album? Is that how we're going to do this? Or are we just going to go, no, I'm just going to go, this is stuff, and if you like it, yeah. 01:30:05.68 Mark McCracken What am I going to recommend? I'm really, I'm really struggling on albums at the minute. My, my recently added is just a bunch of individual songs here and there. I don't got any albums. 01:30:14.99 Michael i'll send I'll send you, I'll send you a monotonic one. 01:30:17.31 Mark McCracken Yeah. Okay. 01:30:17.98 Michael So then then it almost sounds like swaps, right? 01:30:17.99 Mark McCracken Fine. 01:30:20.06 Michael Yeah, I'll swap B. 01:30:20.58 Mark McCracken Yeah. Yeah. All right. 01:30:21.51 Michael Yeah. 01:30:21.87 Mark McCracken I'll come up with a better mission to bring an album back next week. You don't, you're not, you know, a big hip hop fan. 01:30:24.88 Michael Okay. 01:30:26.35 Mark McCracken No. 01:30:27.55 Michael I'll try it. I'll try it. I don't generally listen to you a lot of hip-hop. 01:30:30.62 Mark McCracken All right, why don't you try 1999 by Joey Badass. We'll see how you get on with that. 01:30:35.70 Michael yeah okay there we go there's a swap yeah good name joe badass yeah yeah okay two dollars time yeah yeah yeah yeah did he did he win it all from some dodgy sequel that someone there so so that's how he started his 01:30:36.78 Mark McCracken Maybe, we'll see. I watched a couple of things on TV. Yeah, it's not bad. And he's he's he stylized his album very well. He's gone B4 and then a .da and then a dot and then $2 as in before the money. 01:30:53.00 Mark McCracken Yeah, see, genius. What the... 01:31:00.02 Mark McCracken I did think so, no. I watched High Jack on Apple TV with my mother. 01:31:04.37 Michael Okay. Yeah. 01:31:04.70 Mark McCracken If you've seen that, that was good. 01:31:05.46 Michael Yep. 01:31:06.11 Mark McCracken She enjoyed it, smashed the whole thing in a couple of days. 01:31:06.30 Michael Yep. 01:31:08.23 Mark McCracken But I've been watching June Prophecy. 01:31:11.22 Michael Okay. 01:31:12.14 Mark McCracken Which in in the vein of Cal Newport, I think that they've got things to learn. Like June, if you've watched June, you know it's long and slow and you've got to like pay attention. 01:31:20.87 Michael Okay. 01:31:21.15 Mark McCracken ah But you're in the cinema when you're watching it. So you're like, well, like jack shit else to do. 01:31:23.61 Michael Yeah, I can't do you concentrate. 01:31:24.22 Mark McCracken So I'm just like, you know, it may as well pay attention and concentrate. um I took my dog to see June too. 01:31:28.50 Michael Okay. 01:31:29.33 Mark McCracken That was great. If you ever get chance to take your dog, you don't have a dog. But if anybody else gets to take their dog. 01:31:32.54 Michael is Yeah, my cinema's got dog friendly things here. 01:31:34.33 Mark McCracken Yeah, it's great. um June Prophecy, though. a bit It's a little bit slow. 01:31:37.51 Michael Okay. 01:31:39.13 Mark McCracken So mean it's not bad. 01:31:39.53 Michael Okay. 01:31:40.90 Mark McCracken It's not as slow as that other spacey one, whatever it's called. um Foundation. 01:31:45.36 Michael Yeah. 01:31:45.61 Mark McCracken um 01:31:46.09 Michael Have you found you found yourself reaching for your phone and it's like, yeah. 01:31:48.64 Mark McCracken ah Yeah, but um um um I've got this game. I play puzzle games. And I've got this game that I'm like full on autopilot on this color water sorting game. 01:31:52.31 Michael Okay. 01:31:57.56 Michael Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 01:31:58.67 Mark McCracken Anyway, um Truck Festival. 01:32:01.80 Michael Yes, I'm no truck festival. 01:32:01.85 Mark McCracken I bought tickets to Truck Festival. Have you been to Truck Festival before? 01:32:04.00 Michael Okay. I went to a brother and I was tagged here at truck festival. 01:32:06.02 Mark McCracken Yep. Was it good? 01:32:08.75 Michael Yeah, it was really good. Really, really, like, I think he, he'd, he'd like grown up going to it. 01:32:10.96 Mark McCracken Fantastic. 01:32:13.29 Michael And, um, so when he got married, he was like, Oh, this is where I really want to go. 01:32:13.63 Mark McCracken Yeah. It's in Oxford somewhere, right? 01:32:17.94 Michael So I think he was saying that he, you know, when he first started going, I think it was, cause didn't it, wasn't it off the back of the truck at one point or something? 01:32:23.39 Mark McCracken Yeah, I think that's how I started quite quite literally, trucks, people just brought trucks. 01:32:24.24 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:26.67 Mark McCracken And ah when I was, so I went to something a couple of years ago, ah Kendall Calling, which was great, very serene, lovely, lovely area. 01:32:27.05 Michael Yeah. 01:32:31.56 Michael OK. Yeah. 01:32:34.61 Mark McCracken um And somebody was talking about Truck Festival, I think. And I was like, what the hell is Truck Festival? But the lineup is, like, it's like, got Mark written all over it. 01:32:42.92 Michael OK. 01:32:43.41 Mark McCracken It's got Nothing But Thieves, Cassabian, Cortina is probably the least favorite one I've got on here. 01:32:47.90 Michael OK. 01:32:48.41 Mark McCracken Block Party, Blossoms, Last Inner Party, 01:32:50.42 Michael This is this has just been this is about a month. 01:32:52.42 Mark McCracken No, no, no, this is coming next year. 01:32:54.55 Michael And they show you book tickets again. 01:32:56.03 Mark McCracken Yeah, booked it for next year. 01:32:56.23 Michael Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:57.38 Mark McCracken And Franz Ferdinand. I'm a huge fan. 01:32:59.24 Michael OK. Yeah. 01:33:00.12 Mark McCracken So that's those are the headlines. I'm like, absolutely 100%. I'm in. 01:33:04.38 Michael Yeah. 01:33:04.73 Mark McCracken And the ticket buying process, and contrary to previous ticket buying processes, was fantastic. I registered for the presale, whatever it was. 01:33:09.96 Michael Okay. so 01:33:13.49 Mark McCracken which was straightforward. I got the link and I was like, Oh shit, I'm half an hour late. I'm going to have missed it all. I clicked the link. I went to the website. They said, which ticket do you want? I said, I want this day. 01:33:22.43 Michael Early bird. 01:33:22.97 Mark McCracken I want the third. I want the Thursday two tickets, please but accept Apple pay. that ah And it was done within like a minute and a half. And I was like, Holy shit. Why isn't every concert ticket buying process like that? 01:33:34.14 Mark McCracken Either they've got them or they don't and you piss off. Not that's who that was so much better than 01:33:36.09 Michael Yeah. So you're just, you're doing a day one or you're not going to do anything before, right? 01:33:40.37 Mark McCracken I don't know. We're doing the full weekend, full weekend, but including the Thursday as well, because I'm like, definitely want to see block party, block party. 01:33:41.76 Michael Yeah. Okay. Let's just go all in. 01:33:46.24 Mark McCracken I mean, it's going to be wicked. 01:33:47.62 Michael I could be, I could be in for that. 01:33:47.69 Mark McCracken um Yeah. And what else did I have? ah Yeah, a couple of, well, one that I'm far too late. I should have been on last week's. Keep a price comparison for Amazon Black Friday. 01:34:00.51 Mark McCracken Too late now, obviously, but you can take advantage of this, Michael. 01:34:01.90 Michael Is that, it is the, what I've got about, 01:34:04.08 Mark McCracken It's wicked. It's a little, 01:34:05.76 Michael An hour and a half. 01:34:06.72 Mark McCracken Yeah, it's a little i extension for Chrome or Brave. When you go on any Amazon page, it shows you the price history of that thing for the last four months. 01:34:17.61 Michael Oh yeah. 01:34:20.79 Mark McCracken and You can see if it's Black Friday, like is this actually a deal or was it cheaper? 01:34:22.96 Michael Yeah. 01:34:26.23 Mark McCracken and 01:34:27.42 Michael Most of the time. 01:34:27.57 Mark McCracken low and behold, vast majority of the time, it's been the same price or very close in the last four months. 01:34:36.14 Michael Because that I used camel camel camel at one point. 01:34:36.35 Mark McCracken So it's in many cases, like obviously the key of the key takeaway here is never, ever, ever, ever, ever buy anything a week before Black Friday. Because that's when they're about to. 01:34:45.65 Michael Because that's good, they temporarily pop it up from the, I just put that one, K-E-P-R. 01:34:47.09 Mark McCracken Yeah, exactly. K-E-E-P-A. 01:34:53.01 Michael Keeper, okay. 01:34:53.55 Mark McCracken Keepa. 01:34:53.71 Michael Because there's something called camel camel camel, and and you can, you like it it kind of does the same thing, but you can also put like a deal watch. 01:34:56.05 Mark McCracken Yeah. 01:35:02.22 Mark McCracken Yeah, yeah. 01:35:02.80 Michael So let me know when it drops to the, 01:35:04.94 Mark McCracken Yeah, it was it was very similar to that and you can also have options. on So that was really good. 01:35:08.60 Michael yeah 01:35:08.68 Mark McCracken And the other last bit I got is this music audio editing software, iZotope, which can like magically make your microphone sound not shit. 01:35:20.73 Mark McCracken um So yeah, that that's been pretty wicked. I think it's used by professional news organizations. If you record somebody standing on the street and it sounds terrible, you can take out all signs all kinds of signs in the background and all kinds of different audio bits. 01:35:29.01 Michael yeah and Yeah. 01:35:34.25 Mark McCracken That's been pretty wicked. And Hindenburg. 01:35:35.61 Michael This is what you're using on me, isn't it? 01:35:37.30 Mark McCracken Yeah, 100%. 01:35:37.93 Michael Yeah. 01:35:38.55 Mark McCracken Mostly, it's EQ. I just add a bit of bass to yours, because it sounds like you're whispering through a tin. 01:35:40.28 Michael Okay. 01:35:42.78 Mark McCracken like once Because for whatever reason, I do mine first, and then yours second, and then the guest. 01:35:46.11 Michael Okay. 01:35:46.77 Mark McCracken So I've got only two thirds of the work to do tonight. 01:35:48.65 Michael Yeah. 01:35:49.07 Mark McCracken And it's like, yours sounds like you're whispering through a tin. And I just put a bit of bass. 01:35:52.44 Michael Really? I thought everyone said this mic was good, but okay. 01:35:54.87 Mark McCracken It's not too bad. It's it's it's not that terrible. But I've just put it through but put a bit of bass up, and you're like, Sounds great. 01:36:01.05 Michael That sound sound a bit Barry white. 01:36:01.60 Mark McCracken It's like night and day. yeah I'll send give you a little comparison, but yeah, there we go. 01:36:03.69 Michael I have to listen for the fact. mark Yeah, done. 01:36:06.74 Mark McCracken All right, wicked. We're done. Fantastic. All right, until next time when we will have a guest. Who have we got next time? 01:36:12.45 Michael Yeah. 01:36:13.83 Mark McCracken we've got um 01:36:14.45 Michael Ian, I think, or do we have Barry? 01:36:16.34 Mark McCracken We could have Ian, or we've got, not Barry, it's Billy also, don't get his name wrong. 01:36:17.39 Michael Barry? Yeah. Billy. Okay. 01:36:21.18 Mark McCracken ah Don't do that on the pod. We do have somebody booked in for next week, ah JP. 01:36:26.20 Michael And. Chip. 01:36:27.73 Mark McCracken JP is a recruiter friend of mine. 01:36:29.28 Michael Yeah. 01:36:29.96 Mark McCracken And he's been building some software over the last two years. 01:36:32.38 Michael Okay. 01:36:34.16 Mark McCracken He's been building a product. And now he's kind of taking it to market, getting some failures, and finding out if it's any good. 01:36:38.73 Michael Yeah. 01:36:39.11 Mark McCracken And I thought it'd be good to kind of talk about that process, because he walked me through it for an hour. 01:36:40.39 Michael Yeah, it sounds good. 01:36:41.75 Mark McCracken And I was like, this tech's pretty wicked. I mean, it's not really my domain. It's HR kind of stuff. 01:36:44.50 Michael Yeah. 01:36:45.54 Mark McCracken It's like recruiting an HR retention kind of stuff. And I was like, not really my domain. But I'll give you a hand. I'll give you my honest feedback about it. 01:36:49.18 Michael Yeah, since it looks something different, so that'd be good. 01:36:51.04 Mark McCracken So yeah, I thought it'd be good to get us 01:36:51.18 Michael I never really took to a recruiter outside of getting a job. 01:36:53.66 Mark McCracken outside of, yeah, getting the job, yeah, and then you keep them at arm's length, I suppose. 01:36:55.07 Michael Yeah. 01:36:57.53 Mark McCracken Yeah. So let's let's find out what JP's is like in real life. Wicked. All right. Catch you in a bit. Cheers, man.