Speaker 2  0:00  
Jim: Welcome back to Plantopia. Plantopia is the plant health podcast at the American Phytopathological Society. And I'm your host, Jim Bradeen. I'm a professor of plant pathology and Associate Vice President Colorado State University. And this is the final episode of season 3 of Plantopia. And Iencourage our listeners to stay tuned following today's conversation for an exciting announcement about big changes that are coming to season four. Today we are welcoming a very special guest. I'm excited to talk with Dr. Rubella Goswami. Rubella completed her undergraduate degree in agriculture in India, a master's degree in molecular biology from the University of Nottingham in the UK, and a PhD in plant pathology at the University of Minnesota where she was advised by Dr. Corbett Kistler now I've known rubella for more than 20 years really since her days as a PhD student, and I think of her as both a colleague and a friend. And rubella has really had a very unique career path and stellar professional impacts. After finishing her PhD, Rubella first completed a postdoc at Simon Fraser University in Canada, before joining the faculty at North Dakota State University as an assistant professor at NDSU. Rubella served as a pulse crop pathologist contributing to both the research and teaching impacts of the university. But in 2011, rubella left her position with NDSU to join DuPont crop protection as a research scientist. There she led biological research projects that supported the discovery of novel chemical solutions to pest challenges. With DuPont for nearly four years rubella bed made the unusual transition back to academia joining the faculty at Delaware State University, a federally designated HBCU or Historically Black College or University of Delaware State rubella led plant health research on a crops important to the state in the region, mentored undergraduate and graduate students and taught plant science courses at the undergraduate and graduate levels. But in 2017, Rubella's career took another sharp turn. That year, she joined the USDA National Institute of Food and Agriculture or USDA NIFA, as a program lead in the biological sciences. And this was a very impactful role and rubella worked with stakeholders and partners to identify relevant challenges, and develop response programs and opportunities to mitigate these problems. In 2019, rubella moved just down the road to USDA APHIS, the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, where she served for two years as a branch chief before being promoted to Assistant Director of USDA APHIS plant protection in quarantine or AFSP, pq. And for our listeners who may not be familiar, USDA APHIS is an important plant health agency of the US government that is positioned to identify and mitigate risks to us plant health. Today, Rubella is division director of plant protection with USDA NIFA. In this role, she provides leadership and oversight for the divisions research, education and outreach activities across the nation through granting programs. She supervises a team of national program leaders, program specialists and support staff associated with Naevus efforts in plant health related areas. And as you might imagine, for someone with such a very clear history, rubella has an extensive list of research publications, invited seminars and awards. And she's been actively engaged in APs. Currently, she serves on the Annual Meeting board the APS committee, that as the name implies, coordinates and executes the annual plant health meeting. Rubella, it is such an honor to have you on Plantopia, welcome.

Unknown Speaker  3:48  
Rubella: Thank you, Jim. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. It's always fun catching up and look forward to the conversation.

Speaker 2  3:58  
Jim: Me too. But let's start at the beginning of your career. And really, you're interested in plant pathology? How did you end up choosing plant pathology as a career path?

Unknown Speaker  4:07  
Rubella: It's interesting. I actually come from a family of physicians for several generations on both sides. So as I was so called a good student, I was expected to go into science and everybody thought I would become a doctor. And I must say, it was a bit of a surprise, but I decided to go into agriculture. And I still remember my friends saying, Oh, you're just starting off and then you'll go back into medicine. That didn't happen, because I really enjoyed it. And I did my undergraduate in India, I would give a lot of credit to the program as well. I had an elective in genetics and plant breeding, but the way the programs are designed, it follows the US land grant system, and we go through almost all the different subject areas in act so starting from anthology And Tamila, entomology, agronomy, horticulture all the way to animal science, extension and economics. I can generic. So it's a holistic, such a holistic effort that I really found it fascinating. And the biggest thing is it showed me the difference that could be made, especially coming from a country where there was a lot of subsistence farming, there still is, how much agriculture really touched us and how much a difference can make to the people was something that really needs to be and I continued, There took it up as a challenge because I was less than 1% of the class was female. We had to drive tractors and were even given a plot to grow our old Bryce. The thing says, At this rate, I graduated actually top of the class and ended up getting an opportunity to go to the University of Nottingham to do my Masters as Jim was mentioning, the course was called plant genetic manipulation, essentially pathological biology. And those were the times where there was a lot of work going on genetic and generic transgenics and so on and so forth. So my master's work was developing a transformation protocol for ornamental nipple shiana species tried to make them more dwarf so they could be brought in plants. And it was fun amongst the graduate students because I was using a gene for pumpkin. So I was using a pumpkin G to make the tall plant. Anyway, so that was my master's for a worked with a lot of very well established scientists. But at the end of it, I decided I wanted some real life taste, I was also offered a pretty prestigious scholarship to continue to be able to do a PhD at Nottingham, but I turned that down, came and joined the Tata Energy Research Institute in India, and worked in a facility at a pilot plant for large scale tissue culture, while also doing some research on the transgenic aspect of it. So I'm telling you the whole story because it's all these different steps that decided me and brought me to Bangkok ology. So while I was there, I realized if I really wanted to both research and science, I probably had to get a PhD. But it was a big commitment. It was five years without a salary without proper salary. And it was also something that I thought as if I did go into it and committing my life to science. And so before taking that decision, I actually stepped away for a bit. And I worked as a career counselor. It was, I think, one of the most interesting experiences and something that has come out to be very helpful for me to work there. I was involved in counseling, other practice students, graduate students, and also some good provement for University of Nottingham itself. While I was going to others SLPs, I certainly got convinced that I needed to go back to graduates. And then MSC at that point, I was a little bit more selective, because I knew that I wanted to do PhD, I loved the molecular aspect. But I did like to see the effect of things out in the field. So that translational research is the place that I wanted to be and practice, ology was one of those subject areas that I could do. Plus, very practically speaking, it's not that not only did it have that aspect, it also was going to give me a lot of opportunities. If I could do well in academia, that's great. But it would also open doors in industry for me, if I wanted, I could go into regulatory and it didn't matter where it. So all of these things together, brought me to plant pathology. And amongst all the universities, of course, University of Minnesota, with Norman Borlaug statement and everything together all the great people and all the greats and mentors available, there was a choice. So that came in into the circle of once I got into pathology continued there.

Speaker 2  9:10  
Jim: I asked a lot of people that very question, and I don't think I've ever received an answer that was as strategic as yours. And so many of us bumped into plant pathology almost accidentally. But you were very strategic and thoughtful about your educational path. And I think that's really reflected in your career path that we'll get into in just a moment. So thank you, thanks for sharing that. So you mentioned a moment ago that friends and family were really surprised that you elected a career in agriculture. What do they think today?

Unknown Speaker  9:48  
Rubella: So looking it in this way, I think the greatest validation I got was when my mother admitted that she has been telling people that not everybody He needs to become a doctor. And her daughter is an example of a person who can do as well, in a different field. My brother, by the way, is a doctor. So she has that satisfaction of balance. But she did admit that you can do as well, not only in other fields, for me, to be honest, putting it, there was the stereotype if you were smart, and if you were good at science, became a doctor or an engineer, and nothing else was considered as good. But being able to break that stereotype was a big deal. And also something that I tell my son, and I tell my students is, whatever it is, you need food to survive without food, that would be dope health, it would be not people, at least really no people right now. So I'm very happy with my choice. There are lots of smart people who can become doctors, and a doctor of plants. That's the other side a bit. Even if I make a mistake, it probably doesn't look as bad sometimes. 

Speaker 2  11:02  
Jim: I liked that perspective that without agriculture, though, plant biology, there wouldn't be food, there wouldn't be people. And this really is a broader system. And we all are contributing in many different ways. And there are many different career paths. Now and what I do think about your educational history, and also your working career, it's been very international, you, for example, have studied on three different continents. Could you talk a little bit about what it was like for you as an international student, and how these global perspectives have really influenced your career and how you think of plant pathology today.

Unknown Speaker  11:42  
Rubella: Or I think, just as you said, at work, and that study did it three different countries. And I think what that has helped me do is also get a perspective and a better understanding of the workings of the cultures of the different aspects that really influence society, Plant Pathology, the whole field of agriculture as a whole. Now, I came to the US with two suitcases, the husband and I just went to stay several 1000 miles away. Then, at each stage, we had challenges as international students coming in and starting from our visa status to getting used to the culture to the food. And I must say now, things are way way better than it was 15/20 years ago, when I came to the US, its communication wasn't as See, there was not as much information available. So we went through quite a lot. And thankfully, thanks to technology, thanks to the effort of a lot of people on both sides, those things have become much better. But what I found is keeping an open mind and be flexible, being open to accepting things really helps in adjusting to a new culture. And also, I think it has become better on both sides. As more international people come into the country, there is more international collaboration. So global presence event, the general public, as we would call it, or everybody around us is becoming more aware, it's oftentimes the fear of a note from both sides. That creates a lot of distress, and a lot of stress. But just developing that understanding. And that acceptance, I think really helps. And I take my international and my background across as a big asset because when I look at things, it helps me get that global perspective. So much, which if there is wheat blast and Baba fish, I know how things are happening. If I'm if I understand how things are happening in neighboring India, it's going to be a threat to the US and I know how they it's easier to understand it easier to also gauge what is feasible under those situations, what's going to be effective. And with that understanding, proceed to take decisions of how things need to be handled. So this is a very practical example of things that are having that scale. For example, when I was in AFS, we used to deal with a lot in my role there. I lead the national taxonomist Suhler responsible for identification, anything unknown that came in, came into the country. And we would get these shipments of things and try to come up with policies that would help mitigate them entering our borders and that knowledge, how things come in where for where and what are the realities, oftentimes nobody intentionally wants to ask far. But what is feasible is that under Standing really helps. And so for international students, I would say it's not easy to be equal. It's not easy to come into a new country and adjust to a new culture. But eventually everybody is human. So if you take that human aspect of trying to build those connections, it ends up working, and everybody has their challenges, even it all these years that I've been here, and my son has grown up here as an American in this culture, he has his challenges, we had our challenges. So nobody comes with a silver spoon, really, everybody fights up to being with. So that's what I think overall, having that international perspective has really helped me not only in my job, as well.

Speaker 2  15:49  
Jim: Thank thanks for sharing that. And curious, really, we're talking about your experiences as an international student coming to the US. What advice do you have for us born students that are thinking about or working towards a career in plant pathology? Where do you think international experiences fit in for us born,

Unknown Speaker  16:09  
Rubella: I think, if they have an opportunity to be an equal and work, either country that has a very different climatic situation have very different, I would say, development situation or stage of development of sparring style, that really be helpful for that. And especially if you're looking at habits flexibility in your career. For example, when I was in academia, or being in Boston, I thought I was a brown woman in North Dakota, I made a working straight with growers. So it was not an easy transition, it was not easy to get them to accept me as someone who's going to guide them perhaps to take care of some of the diseases. And in some cases, I had to make an extra effort. But I also have to understand, it wasn't easy for either side to do that. Similarly, if our students are able to go to a different country and understand that culture, it's going to open up their opportunities and their ability overall. And also, at this point of time, everything is so global. No matter where you are in academia, you are a multinational company, running your trials all over the country, you are in government, where you are talking trade with other countries, I think that experience is a study abroad experience, or even a postdoc abroad experience, or the internship abroad experience. Anything that can be done, I think is straight. And when you are there, make sure you go out and see in the field, don't just confine yourself to a lab, just a few experiments and get to know the system there.

Speaker 2  17:48  
Jim: Yeah, thank you for those perspectives lymphology In I'm sure human health as well. These are professions or disciplines that are truly global in scope. And as you say, a plant health problem on one side of the world is just plain right away. So it is important to have these global perspectives. So we've talked a little bit already about your career, I just want to point out that you're probably the only person that I know working in plant pathology, who has really the trifecta of experiences, you've been in academia, you've been an industry or you're with government, would you talk a little bit about that journey and how grow your career each of those opportunities and challenges has shaped the person you've become?

Unknown Speaker  18:37  
Rubella: Sure, I would say each of these experiences has added I take it very vital skill set or knowledge sent that no training or degree put me if I just take it looking at the bigger view in academia, is very nurturing environment. So when you look at it trained me well, it helped me build my network, it helped me set myself up into this leadership type of roles. Then I moved into industrial industry gave me that real world punch the survival skills, what can be translated, what is it that it actually takes to take all our fancy research, to commercialization? And then, of course, nerdy about economics, learning about the management aspect. That was real life experience, I would say, taught me my survival skills. And then coming into the government, I think was the best place where I could pull all these experiences together. Now I hope to be able to make some strategies help build programs that bring both academia and industry together to solve the big things that The government needs to do for the country as a whole. So these are those bits and pieces that slowly build states up. If we go down a little bit into the weeds, just as an example, I've ever since I was talking about how I got it without a GMC I had, I took a stint as a career counselor. And when I became a faculty, initially, it was not a training or anything, but that career path to the experience really helped me deal with students and mentor students get through. Similarly, when I came into industry, they hired me for my technical skills of background, but it was just a side project on fungicide resistance and development of a very useful tool that we had in our lab, which triggered them to bring me in. And my first very successful project there was based on just using high throughput robots, which and those times, dating myself was the beginning of things where having that experience really helped me here. And then when I came into the government, and you had saw that I had jumped from an 1862 lateral grant university to at 8090, that Brett University, and coming to NITSA, understanding those two cultures was extremely valuable, other than my industry experience, which the Six Sigma track, and all of that is also applicable in the government, which I did get industry. So overall, I think each of these experiences has really served as a place to get training and endler, I hope to continue to learn I like new things, I like taking new challenges.

Speaker 2  21:50  
Jim: So in each of those sectors, though, you could have had a really successful career, and most of us failed one one of those sectors throughout our career, that is clear that you've used these very strategically to really become the professional you are today. I think the question that's really on my mind, though, is why why did you transition? What was your thought process that made you move, for example, from academia to industry,

Unknown Speaker  22:17  
Rubella: It was probably not as strategic as it sounds cheap out there. I love that. I had built a lab and I had a very nice group to work with. So I was very attached to it. But then what was the reality of it comes in where you're bad balancing family and work. And most of my family, whatever I had in the US was on the east coast. In fact, very honestly, speaking, I was putting my tenure package together and my husband took my resume and send it off for the position that I eventually got, because he wanted to get out of the coal that is. So that was a nudge. That's one thing. But on the other side, I was working with industry in way as a part of my position. So not that I was opposed to that shift. But maybe I wouldn't have done that shift at the situation a bit different. And I don't necessarily and I think in the long run, it really helped me, though, I still had a soft portlet for academia, because of which I ended up switching back again, after having that experience with industry. And that's why I think sorry, students or even cycled through or any anybody in whichever role on both sides. I think that experience that cross training, if there is a possibility of doing that is extremely valuable, even if it is short term, just to get an understanding, because there are some personalities, the way what drives you that drive that passion for people sometimes varies, and you may be a better fit for one than the other instead of just sticking to one because that's the best way to do it based on who you are interacting with at that point of time may not necessarily true. So it does have also have other advantages in terms of collaborations and jobs, networks in terms of rod thinking and those things but just even career career development, is finding your best fit makes a difference. So this part of the story was a little bit of a push to bow to the east coast that brought me into Dupont. I always like to look at the broader aspect of things and I think that fascinates me though I do enjoy the research and even now as my group is managing and managing real grabs quite hands on but to be honest, because I enjoy the science. I hope that answers your question.

Speaker 2  24:55  
Jim: No, no, it's it's a great answer and a very honest one I appreciate The the fact that we are all humans and we all have our professional goals. And sometimes that path looks different than we might envision initially. And I appreciate your I'll call it boldness and taking advantage of opportunities that they, as they've arisen, it's clearly worked very well for you. And I'll say, for the field of player theology, and you play such an important role in shaping the research that's happening across the country, really appreciate that.

Unknown Speaker  25:30  
Rubella: And then that's the thing, especially for the younger generation, oftentimes, it's said, if you want to have a career at the polity, oftentimes it becomes hard to balance. So there are some trade offs that you have to do. But that does not mean you have to give up your passion. There are especially now and it's becoming an Airbnb appreciated that there are work rotations, things are becoming flexible, that we are able to do it don't feel like you have to stick to something and give up your salary life or give up other stuff just to be able to continue your career, there are options, and you can always come back. 

Speaker 2  26:11  
Jim: I'm hearing your prior life as a career counselor and advice. While we're on this topic a moment ago, you before we started recording, we chatted a little bit about your experiences as a woman in science and how that changed throughout your career. How the challenges for women in science of change, Would you elaborate a bit on on what it was like to come here as a student and to work in plant pathology as a professional all these years.

Unknown Speaker  26:37  
Rubella: So I think if I stopped off the challenges, I should probably start at the beginning when I came into agriculture. And as I was mentioning our classmates, we were less than 1% female, and everything was designed for men. I still remember I was given a Massey Ferguson tractor. I don't know if you've ever seen those very old I was supposed to drive that. And I had to literally stand up to get the accelerator moving. But thing was within me what it did was it made me take it up as a challenge is I will do this. And it's that spirit that why can't I do it? Why is it that anything is only supposed to be for men? Or why does that distinction has to be nowadays, as I see us at the testings in the past two, three decades has changed a lot. But that fight through it was great. And one of the reasons honestly, for me to want to come to the US was because of the ability, the liberties that we had here, the opportunities that we had here, which now has changed. But India has grown by leaps and bounds and the whole culture has changed and what forward a lot, but one of the reasons for coming listed was childcare. So even if I had a family, I still bore, I still follow by like the fashion. And it was hard for me to travel wherever I wanted to I love traveling. So those were some of the things that were not so easy at that time for someone in terms of jumps of safety and availability of resources. So those basic challenges. And then the other thing which comes up is also the expectation, you have to be a good professional to be able to hold the positions that you hold, and you have to put in as much as the other gender does. But you also are expected to be a but whether you're expected to take care of the house, you're expected to cook and you're expected to do everything. So that adds a lot of burden on women. And I've seen that tree and needed tired a lot of people when they become conscious, yes, we deal with guilt. And I'll be very upfront sometimes it's video guilt, and we're not perfect of everything. And you cannot do 10 things at the same time. Multitasking is good, but multitasking. It's not always reality. So I think being able to understand that said that, and partner with people there is help available. So being able to stand up for yourself and fight it through. It is possible. And that's why I am a big proponent of all the district arrangements that we make now have been a place for kids. I know I had to I had to it's me and my husband exchanged my son at airport liksom me at NDSU I still remember my flight was an hour later he had to fly out as here's the kid and here are the keys. And that's how like was but things are changing. Now I could have just taken and let's meet to the lead had to give up a lot of things that I couldn't have done out what's possible. And also society overall, is being more open. And just, I think there's a better sharing of responsibilities. That's those were the things that we had to fight through five hours of sleep was a lot. And you were there, Jim, in Minnesota, I had an awesome advisor at a very supportive lab. But I remember bringing my son back from the hospital. And at night, and I got an email from a we were my PhD thesis was Kazarian prebendary sequencing those times was the first the second follow genome to be sequenced. So it was a big deal that we had been fighting for it, the whole genome sequence came out that day, my son was four. And I was waiting with all my data just to be able to do the comparison. So I had out of the hospital kid in a basket sitting there doing data analysis, but that's how things were. And we did it not because always be apt to do it. But because we want to do it too. I'm a positive person. So I will knit things, I said, as I started taking challenges will continue to make that great.

Speaker 2  31:11  
Jim: And I'm sure that many of our listeners can relate to your own experiences, even if they have their own version of that. And it really is exciting to hear your journey and to see where you're at today really is inspiring. I'm curious, when if you could turn back the clock on your career to the tide of your student? What would you do differently? Or what would you tell that young person that maybe you didn't know, then but you see clearly now,

Unknown Speaker  31:39  
Rubella: I think one of the things I was challenged with, initially, I would say is the availability of information. And, and also, some of the opportunities that were not as maybe they were there, but we didn't know as much about them. So for those who are there now, I think they have the chance to actually start gaining these experiences. And planning there like out a little bit more, though, always keep the flexibility for things that pop up. Sometimes surprises are there that will change the direction of your career for good. But being able to really think about things, pick up the opportunities as they come and use the information that is available. And also the other thing is follow something that you're really passionate about, instead of having to do something that is the norm. Because there are all these different divergent careers that are coming up all these interdisciplinary areas. If you look at science, if you look at other careers, as well just use that information. Think about person life, as you follow to just jumping here and there is good initially when you're exploring, but after that, I think it's good to try to follow a track if you want to really build a career instead of be super scattered. And take advantage of all the things that are out there take advantage of not only these experiences, but also measure it. There is not just stuff that sustainable, even APS has some group of people who are out there reaching out to people, people are much more open now than they were, if I were to do it differently, I would do a lot more research. I don't know if my career path would have been different, but it would certainly have been less stressful, because I would have known what I was getting into before going there. So I think that's the biggest thing that difference would have in my career. And I would like to have continued to have had a little bit more time for some other creative things that are passionate about.

Speaker 2  33:58  
Jim: Yeah, there are so many aspects to life and science, so little time in so many ways. My final question, you mentioned EPS a moment ago and the importance of EPs in student mentoring. You've been very actively involved in our professional society. Throughout your career, you continue to be involved. How has APS impacted you, as a professional?

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
Rubella: APS has had a huge impact on my career. It was the first essential society I became a part of as a graduate student. My first leadership opportunities were with ABS as I was the chair of Diversity Committee for a while. It was a nice soft landing in a way but a real opportunity to go out and interact with people. APS has really helped me build the network, a lot of the network that I have, and I was actually thinking the other day talking with someone is I realized that on Almost all the positions I have had, except probably the wedding industry was all through people I had met. Yes, either it was the APS job board, someone approached me, or they met a and then reached out, or one way or the other. Those are some things other than of course, the science, learning what's going on and be part of things that APS has. I have served on multiple committees over the years as much as I've been able to, in all these transitions in career. But APS has played an awesome role that there's a in my 23 years in the US, I have met the pollack SVP. So I think he has has really has a great value and it has created itself, especially for early career people, as such a strong network building support system, that it is, it's absolutely, and that's why whenever I get a chance, I try to contribute however much I can.

Speaker 2  36:03  
Jim: Oh, wonderful to hear that and certainly rings true to me as well. So rubella. This has been a really fun conversation. As we wrap up, is there any thing that you want listeners to know?

Unknown Speaker  36:15  
Rubella: So since the topic of the discussion started off with more careers, and the diversity of careers and the need for diversity, I would say, just as you are planning your career, or even if you are somewhere in the middle of your career, keeping options open, I would say for the different experiences, whether you want to change your track or you don't, but till those diverse experiences really help you at all the different phases of life in different ways. For students would be jumped ships and events or job opportunities. For faculty, it would be collaborations or new sources of funding with industry or for government. It could be building programs and networks to bring things together. But just having those connections is super about local. And so keep that in mind and also, nothing is impossible. You just have to try. 

Speaker 2  37:16  
Jim: That is a great end to a really a wonderful conversation. rubella thanks so much for being on playing topia today. We have just heard from Dr. rubella Goswami, the Division Director of plant protection at USDA NIFA. And I hope you've enjoyed this episode of plant topia and all of our episodes in season three. I've had the privilege of hosting this podcast now for two years. And I am excited to share the Big changes are coming to plan topia in season four. Recognizing that plan topia, like our field of plant pathology itself really benefits from the wealth of diverse ideas and lived experiences of our colleagues. I've decided that it's time to welcome new voices to our podcast. And I am thrilled to share that the APS Council has appointed Dr. Matt Casson, as the host of Plantopia beginning in January of 2024. Matt is an associate professor at West Virginia University, an expert in mycology in horse pathology. Matt is also a strong advocate for diversity and inclusion. His social media impact is beyond compare. And he has brought attention to our field on National Public Radio and in the pages of the New York Times and many other outlets. And if you're a longtime listener of plan topia, you might recall my conversation with Matt of peeps and people in plant pathology in season two. I want to take a moment to thank our many colleagues who contribute to plant topia. Over the past two years our podcast has benefited from a behind the scenes ad hoc committee that curates a guest list that truly represents the many facets of diversity that's representative in their field and in our counties. I want to thank Mark Leeson, who chaired this committee and committee members Lindsey Dubois Morgan Carter David Gant when Beatty and Jonathan Jacobs, a special things out that was out to our technical producers from Association briefings, Colby Horton and Franklin Mata. And we couldn't produce plan topia without the support of EPS Council and the incomparable APS staff. Thanks to all of our guests on Plantopia, and thanks to each of you our listeners I'm personally excited to see Plantopia continue to evolve to meet the needs and opportunities of plant health producers all over the world. Thanks for listening.