Introduction (00:00:00):
[

Athena (00:00:03):
Have you been zombified by Shabam?

Dave (00:00:07):
So I actually have been like recently bitten by Shabam. I hadn't really known about Shabam. Uh, and then I started listening and it's so it's so good. Like it's [Athena: Yeah, it's an awesome podcast.] It's funny. And it's interesting. And it's like, they do a lot of really it's really visual. Um, so should we tell people

Athena (00:00:31):
Yeah. It's amazing for a podcast, right? Like it just evokes all of these, like, you know, it's, it's, it's about telling stories as a way of really communicating. So, so yeah, I love it. And, um, in case you're wondering right now, what you're listening to is not the Shabam podcast. It's the Zombified Podcast [Dave laughs] So welcome all of you to the Zombified Podcast, we are your source for fresh brains. And today the fresh brains are from another podcast that we absolutely love. Um, I am your host, Athena Aktipis, a psychology professor at ASU and chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave (00:01:08):
And I'm your co-host Dave Lundberg-Kenrick, media outreach program manager at Arizona state university and brain enthusiast.

Athena (00:01:17):
Yes, we are crazy about brains.

Dave (00:01:20):
So, uh, yeah, [laughs]

Athena (00:01:24):
Brains in this episode are awesome. So, [laughs]--

Dave (00:01:27):
I mean, yeah, I really think like this episode, just from thinking about how to put a podcast together, just the voice, like they do little voices. So, so basically what they do you want to explain sort of the premise of Shabam

Athena (00:01:42):
Yeah, yeah. So the whole idea for Shabam podcast is, um, it's essentially like science education, but put in the frame of a story of the zombie apocalypse that kids are trying to get through. So there's lots of levels of zombies and Zombification in this episode. So we talk about both, you know, how to kind of make a podcast like that, why to make a podcast like that. Um, you know, what are some of the sort of challenges that we have as humans in terms of like understanding information and engaging with it and you know, and when do like stories that are not true, get [laughs] spread all over the place? So we talk about lots of different things and, um, Wendy and Josh are just super insightful about science communication as a process and how to make it really fun.

Dave (00:02:32):
Yeah. 'Cause even when I think about the idea of sort of being zombified by science communication, it's like, you can be zombified, like you're sucked in, but you can also sort of be zombified by where you're like zoning out, you know, and they do a really good job of sucking you in, but not making it zoned out. And it's it's you were like you were saying it's sort of for kids. Right. But not really like,

Athena (00:02:55):
Yeah. I mean, I didn't realize that it was geared towards 11 year olds when I was binge listening. [Dave laughs] I was just like, this is so great. I love this podcast. So, um, you know, I think it's definitely fun for the whole family, unless you have people in your family who are afraid of zombies then-

Dave (00:03:11):
[Laughs] Or afraid of science-

Athena (00:03:13):
That's true. [both laugh] Yeah. So we, we were talking with, um, rend- Wendy Roderweiss and Josh Kurz who put together the Shabam podcast. And, um, Josh also does some of the voice acting. Um, so, you know, he can kind of speak to like all these different dimensions of the podcast. And, uh, I, I just found it a really fun episode. And, um, I, I love talking to Wendy and Josh and I love listening to Shabam. [Dave: Yeah, yeah, no, they're really insightful, so] [Athena: Yeah] um, yeah. So I actually have a couple little clips, um, from an episode just to kind of whet your appetite. Like if you haven't listened to Shabam, um, should I play those?

Dave (00:03:58):
I think that'd be awesome because yeah, I think it'd be great to get a sense of what it really sounds like. So what are, what are these clips, let's?

Athena (00:04:04):
Okay. So the first one is about, um, the adaptive immune system. So, here's the way that Shabam explains what the adaptive immune system is.

Dave (00:04:17):
Cool.

Shabam Voice 1 (00:04:18):
You are now at level three, then there's level three, and they're like the SWAT team of immune system. [Shabam Voice 2: We don't come out for just nothing] It's called the adaptive immune system. And level three really only gets activated when there's a really big problem, like breathing in a disgusting virus [Sneezing] or eating a big chunk of bacteria from a sandwich [sloshing sound] . So when these pathogens come in and they overwhelm level two [Shabam Voice 2: there's too many of them], that's when level three kicks in [Shabam Voice 2: Don't worry, boys, we've got your back] and these are the highly specialized groups of cells, much like the SWAT team that take out specific threats [Shabam Voice 2: tagging team.] One group of level three cells is on the tagging team and they identify the bad guys and tag them [Shabam Voice 2: Yep, that's a bad guy, that's a bad guy, you're a good guy, bad guy, bad, bad, good, bad, oop ugly. Disposal team] Another group of cells on the disposal team can now go around, you know, who to eat [Shabam Voice 2: tag, get 'em get, 'em. Good, get those guys.] All this takes time. And while the body is figuring out who to target pathogen is multiplying. So to help this adaptive immune system, your body will actually raise its temperature. That's a fever. It does this because pathogens have a hard time multiplying when the temperature is higher. [Shabam Voice 2: Is anybody else hot?] So once your body fights off a particular disease, another set of cells, [Shabam Voice 2: memory team] on the memory team, keep a record of that. Pathogen. [Shabam Voice 2: Okay, that one was a doozy. Let's remember that one] Let's remember that one. So the next time it comes into your body, there's no waste of time. And the threat gets eliminated before you have a chance to get sick.

Dave (00:06:07):
[Laughs] It's it's really good. Like it's, the voices are really great. [Athena: yeah.] Um, so, uh, so so I like how they call out the different teams, you know, that's sort of where it's like, it really is like you can sort of see them, which is great when you're driving, you know?

Athena (00:06:21):
Yeah. Um, yeah. And you know, just listening to that little clip, it makes me think like when we're teaching immunology or not me, but like when people are teaching immunology, [Dave laughs] why don't we like use language that just makes it easier to understand what's happening in terms of, you know, the process that's going on? Because it seems like that would make it easier for people to wrap their heads around the complexity of immunology.

Dave (00:06:53):
Yeah. Cause it's not a thing that I necessarily knew much about. And so, but this does, it's like, you can sort of see it where it's like, all right, these are the different teams and it's-

Athena (00:07:03):
Yeah, and the division of labor makes sense. So-

Dave (00:07:07):
Yep.

Athena (00:07:08):
So that's one clip. I've got another one too. Um, this one is about vaccines and it, um, uses sort of the same kind of characters that we met in the first clip. So should I play that one? [Dave: Yeah, definitely. Let's hear it.] All right, here we go.

Shabam Voice 1 (00:07:27):
Another day, another pathogen. [Shabam Voice 2: Yep We did it. ] You knowI feel like the whole level three department, would work a lot more efficiently if we already knew who the bad guys were [Shabam Voice 2: Yeah, that's, we do. We're on a memory team. We remember that-] No, no. We're always want to tag behind. We get to tag and then we remember [Shabam Voice 2: I guess so] If we could get a list of the bad guys beforehand and wouldn't have to wait until we got attacked. [Shabam Voice 2: Oh] to know who is bad and who is good. [Shabam Voice 2: I don't think that list exists.] Yeah I know, it doesn't exist, just saying it would be great if it did exist.

Shabam Voice 2 (00:07:50):
No, what we need is like a dummy bad guy that we can practice on so the first attack, air quotes, is more like a scrimmage, and we'd remember how to fight them when the real bad guy show up.

Shabam Voice 1 (00:08:01):
That's dumb.

Shabam Voice 2 (00:08:01):
Oh, that's dumb. What are you talking about [Shabam clip ends]

Athena (00:08:06):
I love that. [both laugh] The guys just arguing, you know, and like your idea is stupid. Right. [Dave laughs].

Dave (00:08:14):
But it is a good cause vaccines, you know, these are, it's a, it seems really mysterious a lot of times like, and this makes it really clear, which I think is great. So.

Athena (00:08:26):
yeah. And we kind of need that now, right?

Dave (00:08:28):
Yeah. I mean it's yeah. And it's funny. It's just so funny. So [Athena: yeah.] It's really good. So,

Athena (00:08:35):
Alright. Well, are you ready for us to jump in to the episode? [Dave: Let's do it.] All right. Let's hear from this week's fresh brains: Wendy Roderweiss and Josh Kurz.

Introduction (00:08:50):
[Psychological by Lemi]

Athena (00:09:25):
Hey, [Josh: Hey.] Hey, Josh and Wendy. Welcome to Zombified. It is so great to have you guys on the show. [Josh: Awesome. Thank you.] So, um, first of all, I just, uh, I know you guys, but I'd love if you introduced yourself in your own words for the rest of the folks who are joining us today. So, um, Wendy did you want to go first?

Wendy (00:09:45):
Sure. Uh, so my name is Wendy Roderweiss and I am a Chicagoan, uh, I am a filmmaker and podcaster and I also teach at DePaul University. I teach Film. [Athena: Awesome. Josh?]

Josh (00:09:59):
Uh, and my name is Josh Kurz and, uh, I am a sound designer here in LA and we, I work on a podcast with Wendy called Shabam. And I'm assuming that's what we're going to be talking about [Athena: Yeah] is how that fits into getting Zombified [laughs]

Athena (00:10:17):
Well, so will you tell us? So what, what is Shabam other than my favorite podcast other than, [Josh: Oh], my own podcast, which I have to say [Wendy: Aww] is just my favorite because I get to do whatever I want, including interviewing people like you. So anyway, so what is, what is Shabam?

Josh (00:10:33):
Thanks for that. Uh, no, that's awesome. [Wendy laughs] Um, uh, so Shabam is a, is a science podcast for, uh, like for the family. Um, and what we do is we take a fictional narrative and then we use that to jump off and talk about real science. So in season one, we had this zombie apocalypse that happens, and we use that to talk about all different kinds of science that that's related to that.

Athena (00:10:59):
Yeah. So I have to say that, um, I didn't actually realize that the target audience for your show was 11 year olds [Wendy laughs] until long after I had decided it was my favorite podcast ever. [Josh and Wendy laugh] So, that tells you a little bit about the level that I'm working at here. [Athena laughs] So

Josh (00:11:17):
No, that's great. Cause we're, it's, it's meant to be for everybody, right?

Athena (00:11:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just love how you guys, well, maybe you can say a little bit more about like the, so you sort of set up this whole world, this imaginary world, right? Where the zombie apocalypse is happening, and then you, you teach about, the infrastructure. [laughs] You use it to like teach about-

Wendy (00:11:40):
Yeah, so we're basically being sneaky because infrastructure is just super boring. So we were like, how can we talk about all these amazing things that we take for granted around us, but in a way that will be interesting for people. And

Wendy (00:11:54):
That's really where we kind of came upon zombies, uh, for a number of reasons. I mean, I think as we all know, zombies are super, super popular in so many different forms of media. And we just looked at, okay, Hey, if something really catastrophic happened like a zombie apocalypse and all of our systems were taken out, what would that mean for the people who rely on them? And so we created this fictional family and, um, the story really focuses on that family and these kids who get separated from their parents, um, two brothers and their good friend Nadine, and the goal is to see how can they survive as we slowly take away all of these systems. So we would take away water and electricity and communication and food. And we look at what they do in those situations to work around them, to problem-solve and to survive. And then ultimately they make the decision that they have to try and get to a safe zone. So they're really trying to reunite with their parents if they can, without any of that infrastructure in place.

Athena (00:13:00):
Yeah. Well, um, on one hand it sounds like really cruel. You're like, okay, we're going to take children and put them in the middle of the zombie apocalypse, [Dave: fictional children] without any parents, [Wendy laughs. Dave: they're fictional children!] Yeah. We, we,

Wendy (00:13:14):
Yeah, We have a lot of fun with that. And we were like, wow, this is, this can get a little dark sometimes. [Athena laughs. Athena: Yeah] Um, but we try and keep it light. There's still plenty of poop jokes. [Athena laughs]

Wendy (00:13:22):
Um, and there's,

Wendy (00:13:24):
You know, there, we even let the characters complain about it. So we, we sometimes break the fourth wall and talk to the characters and sometimes the characters hear us. So with this fictional narrative, we also have the nonfiction elements, which is, it works in tandem. It's us as the hosts, me, Josh and Mel Herbert, who's our other host. And we kind of provide the narration and the context for the show. But we do that through interviewing experts who talk about a variety of different topics. Sometimes zombie-related, like we have a neuroscientist who talks about whether zombies could actually exist looking at how the human body works and the human brain works. And then we have people that are talking about, uh, Polynesian navigation who are training to be, uh, navigators that are apprentices. So, you know, we kind of jump around through history, through time, through, um, through different topics in science and popular culture and, um, other areas to to look at the different world around us and how it might relate to this idea of whatever infrastructure element we're talking about that week.

Athena (00:14:37):
Yeah. So you guys are kind of using this whole narrative of the zombie apocalypse to sort of zombify kids, people, grownups who think that it's a podcast for grownups.

Josh (00:14:52):
Oh, it's totally that. So you, yeah. You, you want to, um, you want to infect people with the interest in knowledge about science, because the, you know, usually in movies like a science fiction movie, you have a, there's a there's the narrative is the, is the main character, right. And the science is kind of like, it's stuck in there, right? So you like, you'll watch Inception and you get to see like a really hyper-accurate rendering of a black hole. I mean, like, you know, they don't make a big deal out of it, it just is they did th- but they actually did the physics, the calculations to figure out what it would look like. And we kind of do the opposite where it's like we're using the fictional narrative as kind of the, the thread. And then we talk about all this, this cool, this stuff that we think is cool because, uh, and the other thing that we've tried to do with the show is make these connections between things, because there are a lot of things that are related that we didn't necessarily think are related, right? Like, uh, you know, Polynesian navigation and, uh, you know, uh, that's not a good one, [Athena laughs] I'll try a better one. Well, cause if I, if I do that connection, then it's like a connecting it to the next season, um, [Athena: Oh, right] which is giving it away. And, uh, so I don't want to do that, but I'm [Athena: Yeah] trying to think of like, what's another good connection, but just-

Wendy (00:16:04):
Here we go! Yeah, here's another good connection! Um, so one of the ones that's, one of our favorites is we talk about digital communication [Josh: Yeah] and the idea of, uh, like the basic, the basis of digital communication is either like a one or zero, right? [Josh: Right] So is it that, is it there or is it not? And so we talk about that and the idea of compression and data and information. And in that same episode, we tell the real story of Paul Revere, which is not a guy who's riding around on a horse, yelling, the "British are coming." And we look at how the actual communication system that was set up by the colonists was, was a digital communication system before digital technology existed. So they had the system that was able to let the other neighboring areas know that they were in danger by there being a sound or not being a sound.

Wendy (00:16:59):
So, we know, we kind of go into the, we, we dive into that and with the idea of like, you know, how can we look at something modern and overlay it over something in the past? And the idea behind this is this something, one of our producers Cici said, which I thought was so great is that one of the things that Shabam is trying to do is make the past, not seem so far away. [Josh: Right] So we're always trying to kind of contemporize things in different eras to something now to make these connections and show that it's all part of this grand experiment of exploration and discovery. [Athena: That's awesome]

Josh (00:17:35):
Cause, cause one of the things, when you hear about history, a lot of times you're like, you know, when you hear about Paul Revere's ride, like, you know, he actually did ride. Right. But like you think, Oh, he wrote, he woke people up and, and that's, and that's the way he did it. But there's, there's so many things that, you know, it's not just a story. Like when you go back in time, he had to actually, you know, they're humans, they're thinking about stuff, they're they're, they have, they're still good problem solvers like we are today, right? It's not, it hasn't, that hasn't changed. So like just making it seem more real, like there are, there are real things that, that people of the past were thinking about, you know?

Athena (00:18:12):
Yeah. So it's sort of taking things from this very abstract space that we can often get stuck in, in science, and just making them really concrete either with stories or the actual examples of how the things worked in the physical world.

Josh (00:18:29):
Yes. And, and I think what you just brought up the getting stuck in your head, like, that's, that's kind of, maybe this goes back to the whole zombified thing. It's like there, I think there are these certain ways of describing concepts and, and telling stories about what happened in the past that gets stuck in a, in a certain way. [Athena agrees] And that's just the way they get described. And after a while the meaning kind of gets lost or you like, you know, you, it, you're not really thinking about it. Just like, Oh yeah, it's that story. And we try to break it up a little bit and rejigger it so that the concepts you're seeing the concepts again, you're not just seeing the, [Athena: the undead version], the undead version [Athena laughs] that's stuck in your head!

Wendy (00:19:11):
That's great. Yeah. And I think that the other, even though the sort of topic, if there's sorry, there's horrible sirens by me, I am in the loudest place possible. [Athena and Josh laugh] Um, the, the, that, there's the other sort of idea that we're going for is that it's it's that this infrastructure is kind of what we're talking about, but we're also trying to introduce some basic concepts of science and science, uh, thinking. So the idea of critical thinking skills and giving kids and adults, uh, the, the tools to decide what's true and what's not. So it's, it's about problem solving. It's about questioning. It's about being a skeptic. So always constantly saying, is that true? Why should I believe that? So that's also kind of a theme that starts in the first episode that we weave throughout the season. And then ultimately the final episode is kind of turning the, the, the show on itself to say, you know, how can we use some objective tools to, to look at what is true?

Wendy (00:20:22):
And, um, and that, that's something that we're really trying to get at. I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about this before, but it's just so important these days where like the truth is getting turned around in so many different ways and you don't really know what to believe and you don't know how to even come to a conclusion, but if we can use scientific reasoning, if we can use these tools of analyzing the information, analyzing the source, uh, and really kind of looking at, you know, what's most probably true, it gives us somewhere to, to go. It gives us the ability to, to make a decision.

Athena (00:20:59):
Yeah. Well, that's such a huge issue with just decision-making in general, right? In order to make a good decision, you have to have good information and you have to know how to evaluate it. And there are a lot of challenges to that now, and the way that we get information and, um, you know, there, there is kind of a bit of a breakdown of, um, you know, thinking about how, um, how to reason, and even the whole idea that there is an objective reality out there. Like, I feel like we're all of a sudden having a conversation about whether that exists, which is kind of bizarre to me as a scientist because I don't, I don't interact with that world very much. But, uh-

Josh (00:21:45):
Well, I find that I find that a strange argument too, right? Like I don't, I mean, clearly there isn't, I don't know if thi- there is an objective truth, right? Like even if stuff that happened in the past, even if the amount of information we have does not give us a clear indication of what exactly happened, something did happen. Like it still happened, [Wendy laughs] even if we don't know, even if we'll never know, it's still, there is an objective thing that happened. So I don't know why we're [Athena: Yeah.] why we're talking about or why there's this discussion of objective truth.

Athena (00:22:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it seems like you guys are fighting the good fight, like trying to actually give some tools to kids, without them even realizing that they're learning about, you know, Bayesan priors and stuff. Right. Cause that's what the episode is about-

Josh (00:22:32):
And it's funny that you mentioned that, right. Cause first of all, yes, we're that we're trying to get some Bayesian stuff in there without talking about Bayesian thing at all and not using any of the formulas because that's just like that's beyond [Athena: Yeah] middle-schooler comprehension, or I think it'd just be boring after a while, [Athena: Yeah] but, uh, just the idea that instead of thinking about things is not true and true, you think of things as probably true and not probably true, you know, probably not true. And then you adjust your probability based on new information is a lot easier to work with as a human going to the world. And then the second thing I was thinking about like doing the show has also helped me. Like, I'm still, you know, I'm not like I still have biases. I know I do. And we have to, we all have to fight against them. So it's not like we're presenting this as, Oh, well, no, we know we were still doing it and we still have to practice it all the time [Athena: Right] when it gets it, you can still fall into your own, we call them brain traps. Like you can still fall in your own brain trap, even though you tell people about them. [Athena: Yeah] So it's, you know, we're, we're just, as, you know, we're, we're still there, you know? Yeah.

Athena (00:23:35):
Right. And then it all circles back to the, the zombification issue, right? Because like, if, you know, if you can get in a brain trap and if someone benefits from you being in that brain trap, then if they can nudge you a little bit towards that brain trap, then you know, maybe they're zombifying you for, for their own end. So [Josh: Yeah] I think, uh, it's, it's really important to have that awareness of what are the kinds of biases that we have and how can we combat them so that we aren't as manipulable. [Josh: Yeah]

Wendy (00:24:08):
No, absolutely. I mean, I think that that's, that's we see that all the time. Right? We see people trying to influence other people into thinking something because they're either given wrong information or not all of the information. And if you have these tools to evaluate that information, you can fight against the zombification of yourself or others if you know these things. So, absolutely. [Athena agrees] And, and this is, there's sort of a little bit of a stretch, but I was thinking about it, um, in terms of, too, like this idea of focusing on infrastructure and, you know, one of the things that we just kind of kept coming back to over and over, and we sort of make fun of ourselves for it is this idea of something we totally take for granted. Right? Like we even, like we say it like almost every episode. And I think that that's like another sort of zombification where we just, [Josh: Yes] we turn on the tap and the water comes out [Athena: Yeah] and like, we just, we don't think about it.

Wendy (00:25:04):
And like we plug something in and it works and we pick up a device and we can talk to someone. So we, we just get into these like patterns of there's just no agency or there's no, there's just there, we're just stuck in these modes. And then as soon as like, I mean, everybody's had this, we're like, you've got a blackout in the neighborhood, cause there's a storm, and for like an hour, you just keep walking in the room and turning the light switch on going, Oh, I forgot! [Athena laughs] Like we just, we it's become such a, like just a given that we have these things that we become slaves to them. We don't, we don't try to live or work without them. And so when we don't have those there, it, it, it kinda, you know, makes us shake out of this sort of zombified mode that we're in.

Athena (00:25:53):
So you're almost saying that there's a way in which we can be zombified by the infrastructure that's actually in place to support us, right? And that we, you know, do we, we really benefit from that being there? But [Wendy agrees] it does get us into these modes of behavior where we're being a little fixed and not trying other things. [Wendy: Yeah]

Josh (00:26:15):
Also, it doesn't even need, it doesn't even need to be that sinister either. [Wendy: Right.] Like just in terms of taking it, you know, appreciating it, right? Like, you know, when the water goes out, you don't realize how many times you just use water all the time at home just to wash your hands off or like [Athena agrees] drink something. Like, you're just constantly, there's this there's, this need, just go in the bathroom and a little bit of water, and then you're done. [Athena: Yeah] And if you don't have any water, it makes things way harder! But just, I, yeah, I, I feel like maybe another zombification is, is you can get, you can, all these things that exist that are, that are really cool, that are helping you out, making life a lot easier, you can kind of forget that they are there. And, you know, [Athena agrees] you feel worse about things than you really should maybe because it's, you know, [Athena: Yeah] we live in a pretty- [Wendy: We do] we live in a good society! Yeah, I mean-

Athena (00:27:04):
It's kind of amazing. We can get water, we can go to the store and get fresh fruits and vegetables and meat. And I mean, things that our ancestors would have had to forage really far and hunt really long in order to get, and we can just walk into a grocery store and buy them. Assuming, of course, that we're lucky enough to have a job where we have enough money to buy those things, right? [Josh: Right] Which you can't necessarily assume, but there are certainly a lot of modern conveniences that we have that are wonderful.

Josh (00:27:34):
But that's another thing. Right. But sorry, you were gonna say something. [Wendy: No, no] Go ahead.

Wendy (00:27:38):
Yeah. Yeah. No, like the, and then we have like mass transportation systems, so we can go places. And we have communication systems where we can call somebody on the other side of the planet in a second and talk to them. I mean, like, these are all things that just, it's, it's pretty amazing that we have these things and that they're there. And I think Josh's point about, you know, that doesn't necessarily have to be sinister. I think that was one of the things we wanted to look at too, is just like, how great is it that we have clean water that comes out of our tap that we can drink without getting sick? [Athena: Yeah.] Like, you know, like that, that's something that we just don't think about in this country. And when you go to other countries where they don't have that, or strangely enough, you go to European countries where they have amazing water, but won't drink it out of the tap for some explicable reason [Athena agrees] inexplicable reason. Um, so, you know, but th th that we have this, like, we, we live in this world in parts of this world where we have these incredibly wonderful things that we never think about, we never question. We just, we just [Athena: Right] go along and they're there. And,

Athena (00:28:46):
But then that raises the question, which I'm sure you guys have thought a lot about given that you did a whole season of Shabam about the zombie apocalypse, which is in the zombie apocalypse, when the infrastructure goes down, you know, how does our sort of default dependence on that, um, actually become a, you know, a vulnerability like that, you know?

Josh (00:29:12):
Well, yeah, that's the thing, like, you don't really know without delving into it. It was like, well, how do you clean your water? Can't just drink water if you find it somewhere, how do you clean your water? How do you look for food? How do you stay warm? Like, these are all things that you don't think about 'Cause you're like, well, if I stay warm, just put on a jacket or I go inside. [Athena: Yeah] No, not, not. If you don't have an inside to go into and not, if you don't have a lot of clothes and you know, there's just, uh, like the one episode where we talked to the, this, uh, survivalist, is he, he, and he was going through like the steps of like, what, what you try to, you know, when you're outside in the wilderness, what, what are the things are the most important?-

Athena (00:29:51):
Yeah. So what are they one of the most important?

Josh (00:29:52):
So it's a shelter, water, fire, food. And shelter is first because you gotta stop yourself from either losing heat or, uh, you know, um, overheating because that's when you basically either you use energy and you lose water, or you are basically, uh, you're too hot and you're losing water the other way. So you, you basically, you don't want to lose water because you cannot survive very long with water at all, without water at all. Right. So that's the, that's the-

Athena (00:30:20):
So first you got to thermoregulate and shelter is the best way to start doing that. Yeah.

Josh (00:30:24):
And shelter can be like a jacket or a, you know, a shade or something like that right-

Wendy (00:30:28):
Or a tent. It's a way to best manage the resources you have is by providing shelter. [Athena: Okay.]

Josh (00:30:35):
And then, and then you look for water, right? Cause that's the most important thing, like your body needs water, you're water based, right? [Athena agrees] So you, you know, you go look for that and then, you know, then you can start looking for food, uh, uh, fire, like, cause that's th that's how you can clean your water if you need to, and you can cook food if you need to, but anyway, and stay warm, so. [Athena: Okay] And then the last thing is food. Cause you can go a long time without food.

Athena (00:30:58):
Yeah. That's kind of amazing given like just how little time it takes me of not eating for me to just be in a really bad mood. [Wendy laughs]

Josh (00:31:06):
Right, oh yeah, you're in a bad mood.

Athena (00:31:10):
But like actually you can survive for days, or two weeks. Is that, how long is it? How long could you survive without food?

Josh (00:31:13):
I think the food was like two weeks or something, but like, no, this was, this was assuming, obviously that you're in a bad mood. Like you're, you're getting into it, but like, but the thing is with, with water, you're like really uncomfortable and like, you know, you're near death in like two to three days, so [Athena: Yeah] you know.

Athena (00:31:30):
Right. It's kind of scary actually just how vulnerable we are. I mean, we take for granted that all of these things are just around us that support our life, but it's kind of trivial to take those things away. It's scary.

Josh (00:31:46):
And then we didn't, and we didn't even talk about, you know, waste management. [Athena laughs] We didn't even talk about that at all.

Athena (00:31:52):
How about some poop jokes?

Josh (00:31:53):
We have lots of poop jokes. [Athena laughs]

Wendy (00:31:55):
Yeah. A lot of poop jokes. And some of them I shut down, but yeah. [Laughs]

Josh (00:32:00):
Because one of the things that if, if you look at a zombie, right, like, you know, we go through it biologically and like the zombie, as it's presented in a lot of movies, you know, they don't, they don't, they eat, but they don't and they, they must have a working digestive system, right? So then they're pooping, but they're not wiping and they don't care. So they're probably covered in poo.

Athena (00:32:22):
Yeah. That's a good point.

Josh (00:32:23):
I mean, that never gets shown in the movies, but like they're probably covered in blood and poo! [Athena: Yeah.] Which smells really bad!

Athena (00:32:29):
Kind of like our cell phones. Right? Yeah. [All laugh]

Josh (00:32:32):
Probably more than our cell phones! Cause I can't, I can't find my cell phone by smelling. But I don't really want to know how much blood and poo is on my phone. [Athena laughs]

Athena (00:32:46):
All right. How do we get back from that one? [Wendy: Yeah. Exactly. Josh: Sorry.] Um, so, so yeah, so we're talking about infrastructure that we're all totally dependent on and we don't even realize, but then when you start taking it away, like what would happen in a zombie apocalypse, then we're we realized quickly just how dependent we are on that infrastructure. And I guess, bring it full circle. Like you're Josh, you're kind of saying, Hey, let's be a little bit appreciative of all this awesome stuff that we have because when the zombie apocalypse comes, you're not going to have it anymore. Right. So-

Josh (00:33:23):
I feel like I'm constantly saying that like, look all this cool stuff that we don't appreciate and [Athena and Wendy: Yeah] yeah.

Wendy (00:33:28):
And I think too, like kind of going back to your question that you had about like, you know, what do we do? Like how do we react when the zombie apocalypse happens? That's where having the narrative element of the show is so great. So we can look at the kids and see what they do. And you know, there there's two teenagers and an 11 year old and they fight, you know, they fight. But then they work together and they cooperate and they help each other out when they need to. And so I think it can kind of show like the great parts of it as well. Like it can show what people can do when they're challenged and how they problem solve. And, and we were always in the writing of the narrative, conscious of giving the kids something to solve so that they have, they're not just victims, right? [Athena: Yeah]

Wendy (00:34:15):
They're not just these kids who get separated from their parents. It's like, Oh, like they got to do stuff. They got to take action. They have to make it possible to make it to the next day and the next week and get somewhere where they can get more help. And so, that was a big part of it for us, like, you know, who are these kids? What are their personalities? How do they interact? Josh and I both have a film background, so, you know, like these kinds of narrative stories are a huge part of what we love and do and what drew us to this idea. So I think that it just creates this great opportunity to look at, you know, what, how do people react in this situation? You know, this is one version of the story. There's lots of things that people could do, but you know, the, what do these three kids do when that stuff's taken away? How, how do they, how do they survive?

Athena (00:35:04):
And well it sounds like you guys really take this story, this narrative as a way of engaging people really deeply. And I wanted to ask you to just like a little bit more about that, because I think there's this really interesting and positive side, right. To using narrative and stories to engage people, um, which your podcast is a perfect example of, but there can also be a dark side to that, right? To like using narrative and stories to, um, engage people's emotion, to get them to take action. And, [Wendy agrees] um, yeah. So, I mean, what do you guys think of that whole, like the power, that power of story, story, and narrative to engage people, like how do you stay on the right side of that and not, you know, go into the realm of like manipulating people against their own goals and best interests and stuff?

Josh (00:36:05):
[Laughs] Um, uh-

Athena (00:36:08):
So like what is that, w w what is the way that, like, how could stories and narratives get used to manipulate people? Like, is that-

Josh (00:36:16):
Well, there are other, they're already doing that. Everybody, you know, you create a story about the politician that you don't like, and then you, or you create a story about, um, you know, what the people are that disagree with you, what they're like, and that's a compelling story. And then you just recycle that. And then that becomes the, that becomes the thing that you hate. And then it becomes easier and easier to hate. Cause you're, you're not talking about actual people. You're talking about, you know, [Athena: A fiction, that's been created], a fictional person. I mean, everybody has like fictional arguments with people in the shower. Right. You're taking a shower and you're like, Oh, I would say this and this argument to this person! [Athena laughs] Does that person really exist? Like you're making that up right there. You know, people are a lot more complex obviously. [Athena agrees]

Josh (00:37:02):
Um, but I think especially nowadays, I think, I think, you know, that you see a lot of stories getting created that are just meant to gin up, people's antagonism toward another group of people. [Athena agrees] I mean, and, and also by, you know, foreign governments do that. Right. I mean, you know, I mean, it's clear at this point that that Russia has, uh, they have, uh, a large part of the, the FSB has, uh, as a department that is, that is, uh, dedicated to sowing misinformation. Those are just stories that, that, uh, sound like they work. And they sow information on both sides, right? Like, you know, you, you get the left riled up and you get people on the right riled up. And then, you know, at the end of it, you create a, uh, uh, a fake conflict between- and then two groups of people show up in Texas. And they were all there, both, both sides of the agenda by somebody in another country, [Athena: Yeah] somebody sitting in front of their computer. I mean, that's, that's the power of storytelling for, uh, you know, in a sinister way, you know, [Athena: Right] that's, but I mean

Athena (00:38:10):
We like stories, right? And so even if they're not, yeah.

Josh (00:38:15):
Well, I think that's how we process stuff. Right. But-

Athena (00:38:17):
Can you say a little more about that? What do you mean that's how we process stuff?

Josh (00:38:21):
Well, like, and, and so some of the things that we, you know, we have like science concepts that we want to explain, like, how does the immune system work? And like, you know, uh, at the level that we're at, I think a lot of times stories can help, right? Because you you can visualize what's going on, right? So if you're in the immune system, you know, you got, you got certain groups of cells that are, that are, you know, tagging the, the bad guy invaders. And there's another group of cells that eats them up. And there's another group of cells that writes them down. Like, I remember that for later. Now this is a simplification of the immune system, obviously, but like, if you, you know, in broad strokes, this is what's going on, right? You know, uh, uh, uh, bacteria comes in or a virus comes in and then another cell goes around and goes, Hey, you're a bad guy.

Josh (00:39:03):
If, and then that bad guy gets tagged. And then, and, you know, we didn't get into antibodies and all that stuff, but like, uh, essentially then the other groups of cells, they eat them. Right. Like they come around and they eat them. So I think it's easier to visualize, you know, cops are going around in your body, looking for bad guys, and then they, they eat them up and destroy them when they find them that that's something that you can remember. Right. [Athena: Right.] And then you can get into vaccines, which are, you know, this is a way of giving your cops in the body, uh, uh, a practice drill, right? [Athena: Yeah] They're not going to actually take over your body cause they're just, they're just dummy viruses. But then the cops in your body are like, let's get them! And then they eat them up. And then, so the next time when the actual viruses show up, they're like, Oh, we're ready, we know these guys. [Athena: Exactly.] So if you talk about it like that, then you know, I feel like you remember that better, right? Cause it's a story. So

Athena (00:39:58):
Yeah, yeah. And then that whole narrative storytelling can get used to construct stories that might not even be true, or if they are true. And they're just getting sort of framed in a way that is to engage people, but not in their best interest. Then, then you have this whole power of like tapping into our brains in order to potentially manipulate and exploit people. Right. So-

Josh (00:40:24):
Yeah, [Wendy: Yeah] although what we try to do is we try to get the information we want to get in people's brains is, is things that, you know, things that will help you figure out how things work. [Athena: Yeah] So like, if you, if you read an article later about vaccines, then you know, we don't want to give you a, a fake, uh, story about how vaccinations work, because [Athena: Right] then when you encounter a story or you read something about vaccination, that's not going to make any sense. [Athena agrees] Or like, you're just going to have the wrong idea. But like, what we really want to do with the show is to create these, you know, stories in your mind that you can then remember when you read stuff about, you know, black holes or vaccines or the immune system or ants or whatever it is, right? So then you can kind of think, Oh yeah, that's, that's, what's going on. Like when in your body with DNA, like your DNA is constantly replicating, replicating replicat-. Oh, if you, then every time there's a story that has to do with DNA or mutation you, you in the back of your mind, you're still thinking, Oh yeah, yeah. It's cause, cause it's always replicating. That's why there's possibility of getting a mutation when you get exposed to radiation, you know, whatever.

Athena (00:41:26):
Yeah. Well, it sounds almost like you're saying that in order to kind of be vaccinated against like, you know, made up things that are there to manipulate you, you actually have to have stories that you can use to understand the world or pro-, you know, stories so you understand the process of how you sort through information. Um, so cause it's hard, right? I mean like how do you go from like, if you're a kid, yeah, you go to school and you get taught stuff and you're supposed to take your notes and take your tests, but like, you know, how do you get the tools to sort out what is real? And what's not real. And I think that oftentimes in education, there's a focus on like, well, let's just give the facts and then the facts will immunize against the things that aren't true. But [Josh: Right] in a way, what you guys are doing is sort of saying, Hey, actually we need some stories and some narrative to, to tie these things together, to make them like more robust to make them, you know, things that you're, you can access in your brain when you need them to counteract the compelling stories that might otherwise be more likely to take hold when you're presented with them. [Josh: Yeah]

Wendy (00:42:38):
Yeah. No, that's great. I love that. I mean, and kind of, you know, just backing up to a certain number of the basic ideas of story and why we love it. I mean, this is story has been around forever. I mean, it, it, it's, it's based on, you know, we can go back to Aristotle and kind of carry that through, uh, in terms of how story works. You have a beginning, a middle and an end. And as humans, we have cycles around us and we we're used to those cycles. So we have seasons where, well, not in California, [Josh and Athena laugh] but in Chicago we have seasons, um, you know, where you've got spring and things grow and they flourish in the summer and then they start to die off. And then in the winter they go dormant and then they start over again. And so this idea of the cycle, we have, you know, the morning, the afternoon, the night we're used to this as a human being, this idea of a beginning, a middle and an end.

Wendy (00:43:30):
And it's something that we we relate to. And when someone tells a story, we get engaged and you know, there, there are good storytellers and bad storytellers and the good storytellers know how to get enough information out to hook the audience, to to have them ask the really important question of what's gonna happen next. [Athena agrees] That's what you're trying to do when you're telling a story is what's gonna happen next? What's gonna happen next? And if you can get your audience to feel that, they're gonna go with you, they're gonna listen, and they're gonna listen in a way that that's active listening. It's not, here's a bunch of facts and memorize them. It's okay, I've now personified a virus, and I know what it sounds like in the body. And those are those little guys. And, and I know what the, the immune system cops sound like in a way that it creates this narrative for us that, that engages us and has us remember things because we can relate to them because storytelling is about, not just beginnings, middles and ends, but this relationship between hope and fear, we're always looking for things that we hope for in a character, where we're hoping that this character can overcome an obstacle and get their goal.

Wendy (00:44:55):
And if there's nothing at stake, if there are no obstacles, we don't have any fear. So we need to have conflict so that we can have resolution and this hope and fear dance that we do is what creates a good story. And it plays out for us in a way that feels satisfying. And I don't know what it is about humans that makes us love stories so much. It just seems to be an accepted fact that going back to oral traditions and then to written stories that we've always either had stories we've told or made up stories to explain science. I mean, you know, lightning is Zeus, who's angry, right? So we we've always had something to help us, uh, feel like we can get at the truth with whatever information that we have. And that's comforting to us as humans. We, we, we want stories. We want that resolution. It, it makes us feel happy.

Josh (00:45:54):
And, and I think, you know, speaking to that, like what we're really trying to do in this or that we're trying to illustrate in, in our, in our series is that the stories don't always have to be about humans. Like the, the, they can, you can put, you know, the same structure that Wendy just talked about, you can put viruses, you can put, you know, inanimate objects, you can put you know electrons, protons, like it's it's all electricity, you can- you can just, just, if you create a story in a certain way that, that, uh, that is memorable because it's told as a story, but explains the concept or it gets the, or implies a concept that is actually the way things work, that's a very powerful tool for science communication. And that's kind of what we're trying to do. And then just to go back to what we said before, like, don't take our word for it. Like, we're trying to give you stories that that are true. But again, when, when, like you were saying, if you're, if you're in the middle school and you trying to figure out what's true. Yeah. Like, go out. And one of the things that we say at the last episode is one of the steps of figuring out whether something is true or not is to triangulate. Right? So it's, don't just take it from one source. So like, when we tell you a story where we've done research to try to figure out what's the best way of telling the story, but go out and, and find out for yourself, too like, like, you know, triangulate figure out, there are other people that are saying the same thing that, you know, that lends itself to that's, that's probably what's going on, you know?

Athena (00:47:31):
Yeah. Well, you guys have a really interesting structure too, with your podcast, because everything is embedded in a fiction, in a story that is, you know, everyone knows that it's fiction, but then you have these little pieces where you're explaining the science and you're using storytelling techniques sort of within those. And those are the, you know, true stories, right, that you're telling with, you know, all these tools of like, you know, personifying electrons and, you know, giving voice to all these entities that are like abstract things. But that, that helps to make them, um, I think maybe just easier to imagine and understand in our heads, it like allows them to jump into our brains in a way that otherwise it would be hard for them to get in.

Josh (00:48:16):
Yeah. Well, this also brings up like, kind of this, this big argument that Wendy and I sometimes get into in film school about whether something should be scientifically accurate or not, right? Cause like, [Athena laughs] cause you can have a, cause my feeling is like, you don't have to explain science to have science be accurate and to somebody to get something out of it. Right. Like, you know, if you were going to make a, a legal drama, but it all happened on a flat earth. like I just don't think that would be really good. [Athena laughs] Like, I mean, that's kind of a funny story, but like, you can't have a serious legal drama [Athena agrees] they just happen to be on a flat, like, I that's that's, you don't do that. Nobody does that. They have it, it's on a round earth [Athena agrees]. They take a plane to Stockholm because Stockholm is on the other side of the planet and no one like questions that [Athena: Yeah] so why not stick in other things when there's like a sci-fi movie or like, you know, uh, a spy movie or whatever, like you can, you can put just as many, you can put the real science in there without it impacting the story. [Athena agrees] It could still be real. You can tell if superheroes that have suspension of disbelief powers, [Athena laughs] but like, but everything else should be consistent and you can, you know, give people a better idea of what, what is actually going on in the world rather than just making it up. Right?

Athena (00:49:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in terms of, you know, practical takeaway messages, I feel like they're probably people who listened to this podcast who, you know, are involved in science communication in one way or another, or they're parents and they have, you know, kids that they want to give, you know, tools or, you know, ways of helping them to understand the world better. So are there some, you know, tips or tricks or pitfalls, like for using stories to communicate science that, that you would highlight or share with us that, that you have from your background and from working on this podcast for as long as you have?

Wendy (00:50:22):
Well, you know, it's funny, I, even though Josh has, was talking about that idea of, like things need to, we want them to be based in realism when we watch movies and we kind of joke and I tease him about this idea of like, you know, it's a comic movie, there's not going to be real science in it. [Josh and Athena laugh] Um, sometimes you just gotta let it go. [Josh laughs] But I, I think that one of the, one of the things that, um, that we, we do really find important is that if if you're establishing yourself as a show that's trying to teach, especially teach kids, about real scientific concepts or the way the world works.

Athena (00:51:02):
Yeah. Or even, um, you know, for teachers, for example, like you're, you know, in front of a classroom every day of, I don't know, fourth or fifth graders, like how can you use stories in order to communicate science better? And you know, what, what advice do you have for just people in general, for who want to help give people tools to understand and, um, and, and work with science.

Wendy (00:51:31):
That's a great question. So I think I want to start with a pitfall and then give some advice. But I think the, one of the things that we, you know, we're trying to be really cognizant of is this idea of doing your research and, and trying to present it in a way that, that is true to the on- the system that we've set up, this idea of like looking at the information, um, looking at different sources to find that out, to see whether it's true before presenting it. Because as soon as you become a teacher or you have a podcast, there's a certain responsibility that you have because people may treat you as an authority and they may treat you as somebody who has the knowledge. Um, you know, for those of us that have had kids, it's like, when you have a kid who's like two years old, if you hold up a phone and say, that's a couch, they're gonna think it's a couch because they're going to believe everything that you tell them, because you're the parent, right?

Wendy (00:52:34):
They don't have any basis to know what's true and what's not. So I think that there's really a responsibility when you set out to be a teacher, obviously, but even in this age of science communication, where information is spread so quickly through the internet, through social media, that, that you do do your homework, that you do do your research in a way that you are presenting information that is most probably true because you have that responsibility. And so I think, you know, Josh and I have heard other, other kid's podcasts, which we won't name, um, that really play fast and loose with real history and real science [Athena agrees] and present themselves as being true of what happened to this person who is a real historical figure. Um, and that, that is just not okay. I mean, that, that that's setting up a potential generation of, of kids who are believing something that's probably not true. So I think that that's a pitfall is just, you know, really making sure that the story doesn't become more important than the science or the history or the facts, [Athena agrees] because that that's the important part and then make the story, serve that and not the other way around. Um, and I think that that's, that's kind of the pitfall and, and, and-

Athena (00:53:59):
But just to jump in for a sec, [Wendy: Yeah yeah, please] the way that you guys, I think you know did it with Shabam with the layering, you know, you were able to have one story that you could just tell however you wanted to that everyone knew was fiction, and then you could make that story work for what you wanted to accomplish. And then you just sort of embedded within that these, you know, other sort of storytelling events where, then you held yourself to that standard of this has to really reflect the science. But, you know, obviously the zombie apocalypse part that wasn't actually like a real life thing that happened, and everybody knew that. [Wendy: Right.] And so there's this sort of blending of like, okay, you know, here, this is the realm where it's the fiction where it's the imagination where we're telling this story that has, where the point is the story. And then within that you have the, the science embedded and the, you know, sort of mini stories that then have to be, you know, held to this, um, this higher s- this high standard right. Of being true.

Josh (00:55:04):
And make sure that people know this is the fiction part, right [Athena: Yeah] Like we say, okay, this is not, you know, [Athena: Yeah, yeah, exactly] if this were real, if this were real, blah, blah, blah. [Athena: Right] Whereas I think if you, if you're creative, if you're telling a historical story and you're like Wendy said playing fast and loose with the actual facts, first of all, I think it's a missed opportunity because you're like, just find out what the dude did, and then try to work with that. [Athena: Right] Don't, don't try and, you know, make up your own stuff because why do that, right? [Athena: Yeah] Like then, then, then it muddies the waters. Then people are like, well, did he actually do that? Did, did Ben Franklin, and did he have, like, you know? You don't know anything about that, that that's a missed opportunity to, you know [Athena: Yeah] put some information in there. [Athena: Right]

Josh (00:55:44):
Um, but, uh, and Wendy, were you trying to say another point, [Athena: Yeah] because I don't wanna, I don't wanna step on you, but I was gonna, I just want to jump in. [Wendy: Yeah, no, no, no. Keep going, Josh.] So the, but the, the, the one advice that I would have is like, if you're gonna like, create a concept or, or explain a concept, I think, you know, obviously you have to start off in broad strokes, and then when you explain that and people know that, there's like different levels of, of, uh, complexity that you can explain, right? And I would say, what I think we try to do is even on the simplest level, make that explanation compatible with the next level of complexity so that when you start delving down and down and down, what you learned in the beginning helps you understand the other stuff. So like an example of a bad idea would be like, I saw it, I saw somebody, it was this like, explanation of like how a battery works. And they're, they're talking about the cations and the anions. And they use cats for the cat ions and like dogs for the anions. And it's like, I don't, like [Athena laughs] I get that, like, you, it sounds like cat and you're using the cats, but like, how does that help me understand where these ions want to go, where these charged particles want to go? It doesn't, it doesn't help me, right?

Athena (00:57:14):
It doesn't map on to the abstract principles in any way.

Josh (00:57:14):
Exactly. It doesn't. Yes, that's right. It doesn't map onto the, to the, to the more complex version of, of what's going on in a battery. Whereas if we, you know, you talk about cops and, uh, then there's these groups of cells and these groups of cells, and these groups cells, we didn't say there's one cell that does that and there's one cell that does that. We said, there's groups of cells. So that when you learn about the immune system, you find it, Oh, well, there's neutrophils. And then there's macrophages. And there's, you know, there's all different kinds, but they're part of the same group. Like we try to, [Athena agrees] we try to make our explanations, uh, consistent so that they, they help kind of scaffold, you know, the, the, the learning, when you like to learn more intricate stuff. And I would say like, if you're going to explain something and you want to figure out, okay, how am I going to, uh, explain this concept? Your, your simple explanation has to, uh, be consistent or map onto the more complex, you know, explanation, because then, and and you can just do that verbally sometimes, too. Like, instead of saying, you know, this one, you say this group, or like, it's something like this, or there's a lot of stuff going on here, which we're not going to get into, but, you know, essentially blah, blah, blah is going on, right? [Athena: Right].

Josh (00:58:31):
And then write all that stuff that you said when you find out about it later, that's all the stuff that went on in there. That's, that's the, that's the more complex stuff, like, you know, electron orbitals, right? In reality, the mathematics, you look at it, they're like weird. They're like these weird orbitals. Like I never, you know, I didn't know this, but like, all we see is kind of the, the, the orbiting, you know, model, [Athena: Right] which is like, that's not really compatible. Whereas if you say, look, the electrons, they have this electron cloud, which is like, they're buzzing around, you don't exactly know where they are. They're most probably going to be in a certain place. We're not gonna get into that. But anyway, just they're there. [Athena: Yeah] And then you keep going. I think that works better, right? [Athena agrees] 'Cause then you're like, Oh, I get it. And then later when you see the actual orbitals, you're like, Oh, that's actually, that's, it's still works with probabilities, but it's, it's not the way I thought it looked. [Athena: Right.] But you can, you can build onto what you already know. I think that's, that would be my, my main advice.

Athena (00:59:25):
Yeah. So it's almost like if you're going to explain something at one level, like you have to understand it at a deep enough level to know that the explanation you're giving is consistent with that deeper understanding, too.

Josh (00:59:38):
Yes. And that is why we talk to experts because we don't know the deeper understanding and we talk to experts, then we say, okay, is this kind of what's going on? And then they say, Yeah, that's what's going on. So that's how we come up with our, with our analogies. Right? Like our, you know, what, what we're saying, because we, we've talked to the. . . I mean, that's the fun thing about the job is you get to talk to people who are, who have really deep knowledge about things, you know, a certain topic that you didn't know anything about, right? [Athena: Right] And so you can talk to them and you can say, I didn't know about mole rats. [Athena: Right] Like, I didn't know that.

Athena (01:00:13):
Yeah. Wendy, was there something that you wanted to add also about, um, you know, tips and ideas for science communication and sort of using stories as, as part of science communication?

Wendy (01:00:26):
I mean, I think it's just kind of like a general PSA, just coming from a filmmaking background of figuring out how to tell a good story. Cause there's nothing more painful than a bad story! [Athena agrees] Like we, you know, we, we hear them all the time. We're like, it's like, you know, Yeah, so I was trying to get on the train and then I missed it. Okay [Josh laughs] that's not a story, [Athena: Yeah] like that, that's not a story like w-we need stories. So, um, so, so for, for me, it's just kind of like, you know, my, my personal, like passion to enable people to understand the basics of storytelling, like the idea of conflict, the idea of resolution, the idea of progressions and having a character that has a need that they're trying to get and things that are standing in that way a- the way of that character getting it. And so, like, you know, th th there's lots of books written on these things, but just that idea of like, you know, ha- having a story that, that is easy to follow, because if you're going to use it as a tool, and it's not a good story, it's going to be completely ineffective. So that, that's a huge part of it is how, how do you give, give the audience what they want in terms of the basic storytelling, but then attach to this, this greater learning point or this meeting so that it sinks in and and actually has them ingest and, and, um, digest the information. [Athena agrees]

Josh (01:01:49):
And that's not incompatible with, you know, a lot of scientific explanations, right? Cause like ions want to do things, right? They want, you know, atoms want to be neutral, right? Like, you know, positive negatives want, you know, are attracted, [Athena: Yeah] they want to be, you know, like there's, there's ways of describing it, that, that you can plug that into a story and create a story. Like when Wendy says a good story, you know, it doesn't always, it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, a scientists' personal story, right? Like, those are cool, but like, [Athena agrees] that's not the only thing, right? You can talk about bugs and bacteria and fungus and oceans and planets and you know, like the same sort of thing, right? Like-

Athena (01:02:30):
Yeah. And there's a lot of systems and a lot of things in science where there is some sort of tension, right? And so if you can find that [Josh and Wendy agree] and find a way of talking about that tension in a compelling way, I mean, there may be a whole lot of opportunities for bringing these storytelling ideas into teaching about science that aren't yet really being realized, because [Josh: Totally.] People aren't pulling in these, these sort of tools and tricks from storytelling in order to engage the brains of learners better.

Josh (01:03:00):
Because I [Wendy agrees] think you got to get out of that, those they're like, they're like explanatory, ruts, right? And like when, when people hear certain phrases that have been used over and over and over again, it's like the meaning of the phrase, you lose that and you, it loses its explanatory power because it becomes a thing and you forget, you know, [Athena agrees] natural selection. Okay. And it was the natural selection, natural natural selection- but like when you break it down, you're like, no, they're getting selected for naturally, right? Like the, the organisms that are more, you know, uh, that have an adaptation that is more beneficial, those are getting selected for in a natural way, right? [Athena agrees] Like, okay, now [Athena: Right] I, you know, this phrase, natural selection, which like at a certain point becomes [Athena: Yeah] kind of like, you just want to, don't want to lose the-

Athena (01:03:50):
Yeah. Well, all of these concepts, right? Like very abstract concepts, we sort of, you know, will get into this place where we think we know what they mean oftentimes, um, and you hear them enough and you think, you know what they mean, [Josh: Yeah] but if you actually try to break down like, no, actually what, what do they mean? Oftentimes, you know, people can have a hard time describing it, even though they, they think they know. [Josh: Right.] So, I mean, I love this idea of, you know, how do you make it more concrete? How do you give it a voice? How do you find where the conflict is? How do you find this, the beginning, middle and end, you know, to create something that will engage our brains more and, um, you know, hopefully give people more tools and kids, next generation, I hope, more tools for really telling fact from fiction in the world and and being able to, you know, use fiction in the right way and, uh, use facts in the right way, too. So-

Josh (01:04:47):
Yes. And also see that there's awesome stuff out there that like, we don't know about, like there's so much cool stuff going on. Like, yeah. I, I, I, I can't stress that enough, like it's for, and Wendy, I, you know, I'm sure she feels the same way we've talked about this. Like, we just love finding out about stuff we don't know, [Athena and Wendy agree] because you get, you get a, it's like this opening this new whole new world of like, Oh, that's how that works. That's why it's like that. That's, you know, [Athena: Yeah] those are the mechanisms like, and that's because we get to talk to scientists who, you know, tell us cool stuff. Like you.

Athena (01:05:23):
[Wendy: Absolutely] Well, it sounds like we have something really in common here because I love brains too. [Josh and Wendy laugh] So-

Wendy (01:05:31):
Yeah. I mean, I just want to kind of like, just even like emphasize that even more because like Josh and I, we don't really know that much stuff. Like really, [Josh laughs] we're not scientists, uh, you know, in the traditional sense, but that's kind of what we're trying to get at with the show is that anybody can be a scientist. Science is all around us. And if you know the kinds of questions to ask [Josh agrees] and the different processes to go through, you can be a science too, because scientists too, because science is something that we need all the time. And so for me and Josh, like, most of the stuff we talk about, we don't know it's, it's, uh, the, the most thrilling part of making Shabam was the discovery element. It was, it was learning these things that we didn't know before, and then finding a way to retell them at the age level that we were targeting and in a way that we thought was fun and interesting and would sink in for people. So, that, that's a huge part of it. Like it's just that curiosity and that, that desire to, to know more, you know, and I think that that's, you know, we're always trying to take a step back and look at what we're working on. And I think, you know, there's some themes that come up over and over again, but that idea of exploration and discovery is just a huge, huge one for us. And I think it's like innately human. And I think that if, if we can, we can bring that passion of discovery into what we're doing, it, it, we hope is infectious in a zombie-like way [laughs] to other people and, uh, you know, that they also become infected with that curiosity and want to ask more and want to learn more too.

Athena (01:07:18):
That is so awesome. Thank you, Wendy. [Wendy laughs] Thank you, Josh, [Josh: No problem] for sharing your brains with us. [Wendy laughs. Josh: Yeah] This was so amazing and, um, remind everyone where, where they can find Shabam.

Josh (01:07:32):
You can go to shabamshow.com and that's S H A B, as in boy, A M show.com. [Athena: Awesome] And then we're also on iTunes and Stitcher and [Athena: all that stuff] all that stuff, you can find us.

Wendy (01:07:47):
Yea, and we actually, we, we kinda it's a little pre, pre-announcement, but we're, um, we're actually about to embark on a partnership with the, um, Roddenberry group as in Star Trek, and they are going to be putting shipping em out on their networks. So that's gonna, I think, is it August, Josh? Is that what we're targeting now?

Josh (01:08:06):
Yeah. That's, that's the, that's the target is August. So we'll have a little announcement, and-

Wendy (01:08:10):
Yeah, so were gonna be relaunching season one, um, on their platform, which we're, we're super excited about they're, they're just such incredible people and we couldn't be more thrilled to be associated with Star Trek and Roddenberry. Um, so It's, that's, that's going to be coming up too, so. [Athena: Awesome.] That's, that's kind of exciting in our future. [Josh: Yeah.]

Athena (01:08:29):
Great. Well, thank you guys so much.

Josh (01:08:31):
No problem.

Wendy (01:08:31):
Thank you.

Athena (01:08:31):
And it was, it was amazing having you. [Wendy laughs]

Josh (01:08:35):
Just, thanks, thanks for talking to us. It was great.

Wendy (01:08:57):
Thank you for, for having us.

Outro 1 (01:08:57):
[Psychological by Lemi]

Athena (01:09:56):
Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave (01:10:02):
And we would like to thank everyone who helps make some Zombified possible, including the psychology department at Arizona State University,

Athena (01:10:10):
Which is not filled with zombies.

Dave (01:10:10):
Uh, not yet. [laughs]

Athena (01:10:18):
The Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and the president's office at ASU,

Dave (01:10:23):
The Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics

Athena (01:10:26):
Of zombies and the zombie apocalypse and zombie apocalypse-related science communication podcasts.

Dave (01:10:32):
That's right. And helping zombies through the apocalypse. Oh, [Athena: Right] who made this up [indiscernible], right?

Athena (01:10:44):
[Laughs] All of the brains that help make this podcast,

Dave (01:10:48):
Uh, like including Tal Rom who mixes everything

Athena (01:10:51):
And Neil Smith, who does the illustrations for every podcast

Dave (01:10:56):
And Lemi who does the song, "Psychological."

Athena (01:11:00):
Yeah. Which I've been zombified by. I love that song.

Dave (01:11:03):
It's a good song.

Athena (01:11:05):
And our Z-team, all of the undergraduates and graduate students and researchers and staff and everybody who helps to make Zombified happen and transcribe our episodes. You guys are amazing and we could not do it without you. Thank you so much.

Dave (01:11:24):
Now, are they zombies?

Athena (01:11:24):
Uh, I don't think so, [Dave laughs] but I'm not positive. [Dave and Athena laugh] So if you want to become a Zombified zombie, um, you can follow us and support us, uh, on social media and on Patreon, and, um, and buy our merch too, we've got, um, Zombified t-shirts and we have t-shirts for everything in the Channel Zed world, too. So if you are a fan of our live stream on Channel Zed, um, you can find t-shirts and mugs and everything, um, based on any of your shows that, that are your favorites. So-

Dave (01:12:04):
Oh, so you could have one, like, so every time you're watching an episode, you could have the matching mug.

Athena (01:12:09):
Exactly. [Dave: Awesome. Yeah, so] Yeah. Yeah. So that's all on TeePublic. Um, and we're Zamapocalypse and TeePublic. So if you just look up Zamapocalypse and you'll find all of our stuff,

Dave (01:12:21):
Cool! Uh, and you can check out those shows at channelzed.org and-

Athena (01:12:26):
Yeah. Yeah. So that's our whole, that's our live stream video thing. So if you want to like, have a live experience with me and Dave and the other hosts of our shows, um, you can get on there and see what we're doing in real-time and even post your comments and questions as the shows are going. So, um, yeah, so it's nice if you're stuck at your computer and you want to get like de-"Zoom"bified a little bit to tune into one of our shows.

Dave (01:12:53):
That's right! So, and you can post comments and things, and so,

Athena (01:12:56):
Yeah. It's super interactive. Yeah. It's really fun.

Dave (01:12:59):
Um, well, cool. Anything else? And did we forget anybody?

Athena (01:13:03):
I think, I think we've got everybody except our listeners. Thank you to all of you for sharing your brains with us, by listening. And we're really grateful for all of you to, you know, be a part of our community. So, thank you all for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains.

Outro (01:13:26):
[Psychological by Lemi]