Athena:	00:00:04	Have you been zombified by stress? Welcome to the Zombified podcast, your source for fresh brains. Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. I'm your host, Athena Aktipis, psychology professor at ASU and chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.
Dave:	00:00:26	And I am your co-host Dave Lundberg-Kenrick, program media though, something, something at ASU and brain enthusiast.
Athena:	00:00:33	Awesome. I love brains too.
Dave:	00:00:35	Awesome.
Athena:	00:00:35	Yeah. Uh, so Zombified is your source for fresh brains. Dave, its your source. It's my source. It's our source.
Dave:	00:00:43	It is.
Athena:	00:00:43	You've got to have fresh brains.
Dave:	00:00:44	Yup.
Athena:	00:00:44	Yes. Today we have an awesome, uh, fresh brain on the show. Mary Davis, who is a professor at ASU in my department here. She studies, among other things, stress and resilience to stress. And I think she has some super useful advice for all of us who have been zombified by stress.
Dave:	00:01:06	Yeah. I think that today's episode has really good survival strategies for dealing with the way stress zombifies our brain.
Athena:	00:01:14	Yeah. Because I mean part of stress is that you just go into mindless zombie mode, right? You like, you don't actually realize, am I getting the things done that I want to get done? You're just reacting and you're not really being mindful. And so yeah, I feel like what kind of a better antidote to mindlessness than mindfulness.
Dave:	00:01:37	Yeah. And what, and I really like how... in the episode Mary will really break that down for us. Like, she won't just say, well, you need mindfulness and leave it at that. She'll really, show us how to achieve it.  [Athena agrees] 
Athena:	00:01:47	Yeah. The other thing I love is that like, you and I were like, the whole episode were like, asking her like, "how can we use this with our kids?" And she totally, was willing to engage with us even though she doesn't study that. But I know that for me that's a huge thing. I'm always like, "how do I deal with the stressors, parenting and my kids being stressed?" 
Dave:	00:02:06	I think it will be particularly useful to people who are zombified by kid stress, but hopefully it'll be useful for people who are zombified by all the stress in their life.
Athena:	00:02:13	That's right. Awesome. Well let's jump right in with Mary Davis.
Dave:	00:02:17	Sounds good.
INTRO MUSIC:	00:02:18	[Lemi 'Psychological' plays]
Athena:	00:02:56	So, uh, so you study stress?
Mary:	00:02:59	I do.
Athena:	00:03:00	And how it affects us. And, what are the, what's the sort of, you know, short version of like what, what actually is stress and why does it, why does it affect us?
Mary:	00:03:14	That's a much more complicated question than it seems on the surface because we use the term stress just in everyday life. [Athena laughs] We're stressed out about running out of groceries, you know, needing to run to the store or deadlines, that kind of thing. Um, but stress. The way we can kind of think about it, at least in health psychology, is that it's when; whatever is placing demands on us, whatever the circumstance is, overwhelms our capacity to meet the demands. So it, it's really distinguishing between things that we find challenging. But think, oh yeah-yeah, I can stretch. I can do, do this. I got this covered. Um, which is kind of- people talk about more positive kinds of stress, challenges that you grow and stretch and meet and can feel elated by. Um, versus challenges or circumstances that are overwhelming. So you, something hits you and you know that you don't have the capacity to deal with it. And it could be, you know, think, you can think of a lot of things. Poverty being one. So you know, the bill comes due when you don't have money. That is definitely not a challenge. That is a stressor. Um, if you're asked to do something that's beyond your capacity, um, that is definitely a stressor, not a challenge.
Athena:	00:04:33	So, are the things that are like positive stress, more things that you're sort of deciding yourself and the things that are negative things that are being imposed on you? Or is that not the way that it is?
Mary:	00:04:44	Well, it, you know, part of it depends on how you think about it, but in a, in a broad sense, yes. So, the sense that you're choosing things, you have a sense of control and volition and you want to do it. Um, we make choices all the time to do stuff that are, that's a little bit challenging because we recognize that it has meaning and value are going to learn something new. Yeah. So that's, I would say that's positive stress. Um, things that are imposed off, on us, often, uh, come with a lack of control, which is stressful. In fact, the things, the worst kinds of stress are the ones that are uncontrollable. But the, you know, because we have our big brains, we can sometimes refashion how we view things even that are imposed upon us to think, is this something I can find useful? So, somebody asks me to do something that I didn't necessarily choose to do or maybe they tell me to do something- I'm in a position to be told what to do- Um, is this something I can still grow from and view in a way that's beneficial? So even how we frame, things that are imposed on us, the things, people telling us to do, certain things can still be changed into challenges. And I'm not advocating that that's possible to do across the board. Of course it's not. But there are circumstances where, yeah, you can say, ah, this is a horrible, grungy task that I've asked, you know, have to do that can be transformed into something, something that is much more positive.
Athena:	00:06:15	That make sense. Yeah. So, why are we so stressed all the time? I mean, that it's not just us here in the psychology department, right, we have so many things always to do. But, I feel like everyone is stressed. I'm, you know, I always feel stressed. My friends, I talked to them on the phone, they live in other cities, they're stressed. My kids, they seem stre-like everybody. Everybody seems... stressed.
Mary:	00:06:40	Can I, can I turn it on you a little bit?
Athena:	00:06:42	Yeah.
Mary:	00:06:42	So what, what do you think stresses- is stressing you and your friends and out? And kids out?
Athena:	00:06:46	Oh, yeah, I think it's the, this feeling that there, there's always way more that needs to get done than we'll ever get done. And, and you know, and so you can kind of like carve times out and say, "well, I'm just not going to think and worry about all those other things that need to get done. And just focus on this one thing or take a time out" or whatever. But when you're in it, when you're like in the world of everything, I mean it's stressful, right?
Mary:	00:07:19	Yeah. Yeah. I think there are so many more opportunities and so many more stimuli around us, partly because there are so many more people. We live in, bigger social groups. We live in faster, a faster paced environment than, than in times past. Um, that it's easy to view all the things that we're experiencing as of equal priority. So we lose sight of what matters most. What's really life and death kind of critical or what's the really the area or areas we want to be paying attention to and putting most of our effort or energy into. Versus the whole morass of things that come at us. So it's really easy to get caught in thinking everything is equally important and pressing.
Mary:	00:08:06	So you think, "I didn't do the laundry last night! My gosh, my kids are not going to have their soccer uniforms and that's going to be a disaster!" And your children might think it's a disaster. But, really? Is that really a disaster if a child has to put on a soccer uniform, that's a tiny bit smelly? [Dave, Athena and Mary laugh] But I, but I think that that's part of what this fast paced stress-producing environment does. Everything becomes kind of black and white-simplified. We don't do this higher-order kind of consideration of what we really, what really matters.
Athena:	00:08:39	But who has time to think about what really matters? [laughter]
Mary:	00:08:42	Right! So, its this Catch-22 right? We think we don't have time because we've got so many pressing things to do, which means we don't have time. Because we don't take the time to say, all right, I'm gonna, I'm going to actually work, work my way through what's on my plate, what can, what needs to get done? What's absolutely critical for me because of it's life or death becau- or, or because it's a really high priority for me to accomplish, it matters. Versus the things that can be back burnered or even heaven forbid declined. Now you can say, you can actually say thank you for this opportunity. I'm not, I'm not really in a position to take advantage of it.
Athena:	00:09:24	You just said no without actually having to say “no”. [laughter]
Mary:	00:09:30	Yeah, it's a no. Because if, if you don't say no, ever say no, then you, then you never get a sense of what your priorities are. I mean, and to be able to say no, you have to have a sense of what matters to you because every time you say yes, that takes up time and you can end up feeling like you have no time because you've said yes to everything and that's fine. If, if everything you're saying yes to matters a lot, then you're going to have stress and you're going to, it's going to be productive for you and you're going to feel like, that, that's okay, I'm stressed, but I'm doing stuff that matters versus saying yes to everything, including the things that are not so important.
Athena:	00:10:08	Yeah. So what about the stress of saying no, right? Like that in itself can feel so scary, right? To say no. If someone's asking you to do something and you feel like, oh, well if I don't do it, maybe I won't get this other opportunity. Or maybe they'll not like me.
Mary:	00:10:31	That's like a fear of, the fear of missing out or the fear of, um, or the fear of rejection or criticism or
Athena:	00:10:38	Yeah, or of like not doing your part too. Like, if you feel like someone's asking you to do something and you don't really want to do it, but you feel like you should or you know?
Mary:	00:10:50	Yeah. I think that's a really good question. And it's one that people confront all the time. So I'm gonna circle back, I'm going to sound a little bit like a broken record because if you really have a sense of what your values and priorities are, then someone asking you to do something consistent with that, you're going to be more inclined to say, yes, maybe you're busy, but you know what, it's consistent with what you want to be working on. So, so you're willing to put in some time. If it's not, then you can decline with, with, um, complete ease because it's not aligned with where you want to be putting your priorities and your time. And, and there are always other people who can do what you are being asked to do. That's the other kind of myth I think we sometimes have. No one can do this, but me, I've got news for ya... they can! [Mary laughs]
Athena:	00:11:36	You're not that special, actually!
Mary:	00:11:36	You're not that special! [Athena laughs] Yes! That's exactly right. We can, we can end up thinking, "oh, if I don't do it, who will?" You know what? There are people who will, and I think if you think about your whole your, all that's on your plate with this sense of priorities, then you will see, you'll decide whether you're contributing in ways that are meaningful. Are you pulling your weight? Are you doing your share to, for the common good? Are you contributing to the community in ways that you want to be doing?
Athena:	00:12:07	[Athena agrees] You don't have to do everything in order to be contributing.
Mary:	00:12:10	You don't have to do everything! Yeah! And if you're really being aware of that, you can say, you know what, I am, I'm, I'm doing my fair share or more and I'm comfortable with that. [Athena agrees] I'm comfortable. I don't have to respond to somebody else's priorities for me.
Athena:	00:12:24	Yeah. I remember reading some study, I think maybe it was done with teachers. Where, they had um, some teachers like, say “yes” to only the things that they decided that they wanted to help with. They have like a list of these other things; I really want to help students with. And then others who just said “yes” to all requests and then some like I think who said “no” and like the saying “yes” just to the things that you really want to do was associated with like way less burnout.
Mary:	00:12:55	Absolutely. Well and think about how much sense that makes you are saying yes to something that matters to you versus feeling imposed upon. We talked about the value of control. When you're saying yes to things that are aligned with your values, you are in charge of what you're doing. You are making choices. [Athena agrees] Thoughtful choices when you're saying yes because you feel like you have to, that will suck the life out of what you're doing. Right.
Athena:	00:13:21	Suck the life out of you.. Right? [laughter]
Mary:	00:13:24	Um, so I'm not a developmental psychologist, but I remember data from when I took my intro course way back when, um, about the intrinsic versus extrinsic reward. You know, if you, if kids read because they love reading versus kids reading because they're paid to read books, you know, you get 10 bucks, you're gonna make 10 bucks. If you want to suck the life out of something, you know, take the intrinsic reward out of it, do it, do it for, make it transactional. And there's a little bit of, I think that going on when you're doing something just to be, get your chips, you know, your chips of being a good, good person, being viewed nicely, etcetera
Athena:	00:14:03	So the sort of reputational concerns maybe interfere a little bit with really doing what-
Mary:	00:14:08	I think they can. Yeah. I think they can. If you're doing a lot of things because you want to earn your badges for your girl scout or boy scout sash, [laughter] “I don't really care about learning to light a fire, but I want another badge.” [laughter] I mean, that's, that defeats the purpose of kind of learning and growing. It's not that you can't find some joy in it, but I think you're, you cut the odds that you're gonna actually find joy in something if you're doing it to earn a little, another badge and other line on your resume or your vita. Doing it because it's consistent with your values and your priorities is a much better route. Diff- to staying alive and lively in your work and in your life
Athena:	00:14:52	Not being a zombie?
Mary:	00:14:53	Yes! Not being a zombie! Exactly!
Athena:	00:14:58	Don't become the undead. Stay alive.
Mary:	00:15:00	Stay alive. Please, stay alive!
Athena:	00:15:03	That kind of brings us to this question about whether stress manipulates us. Like would you say that stress manipulates us or controls us or would you not take it that far?
Mary:	00:15:12	I think it can. Um, I think when we're, you know, we're, we evolved to respond to immediate threats with a stress response where physiologically we're hyper aroused and we're very focused on the, the threat or danger, so we're going to fight or flee or freeze. Um, so it's a valuable thing. We want to have that if we don't have that, we are less likely to survive. We certainly were, our answers certainly were and their instances, even for us today where if we don't have that response, we may be less likely to survive. But in the modern world, those kinds of stressors are few and far between. You know, for the most part it's most of what we face is not life and death. And so, but we act as if they are. So we become real. We still are quite simplified in how we view the world and become very black and white. Uh, our, our emotions, our fear and anger might take over and we might lose access to positive emotions like joy and interest. Um, and so in that, when we get in that state of hyper-arousal to threat, we can be manipulated. Mm. We're not thinking. So complexly when we're in that kind of aroused state. And so we may be more pliable to believe certain things or to act in certain ways.
Athena:	00:16:35	Wow. So stress can manipulate us, but then it can also make us more vulnerable to being manipulated by other things. So it's like a double whammy of zombification.
Mary:	00:16:46	We're not doing our most complex thinking when we are stressed, we're not at our best in being able to process information well when we are stressed.
Athena:	00:16:58	So we become like a stress zombie?
Mary:	00:17:00	Yes, I would say. And here I'm talking about the, not the good stress, not the challenge where we have the, you know, that that can be beneficial, but they're the more extreme threat-oriented stress.
Athena:	00:17:12	So what can you make somebody do if they're stressed that they wouldn't otherwise do?
Mary:	00:17:18	Oh, they can demonize groups of people who aren't like them. They can purchase things. And this, this is, by the way, this is not my area of science.
Athena:	00:17:29	That's fine.
Mary:	00:17:29	I'm generalizing from what I know about thinking of stress. Um, you can be, if you want to alleviate the threat, so you want to, if you feel threatened, do you want to feel safer? So you do things to feel they're going to make you feel safer. And that may be, say, clustering with people who are more like you so that you feel safer. It may be, um, making sure you're well defended if you've viewed the world as threatening. Um, trying to- your, what you want to do is try to increase safety, your sense of safety and security and so anything you can be pushed around to try to increase your sense of safety in ways that you may not be aware of. You just know that you feel threatened and you're pretty agitated and can then be moved.
Athena:	00:18:12	Yeah. So do people do, do people stress other people out in order to manipulate them?
Mary:	00:18:19	Again, this is probably a better question for a social psychologist, but the short answer is, yes. [laughter] Yes. [Athena agrees] Yeah. We're, we're maneuvered all the time by thinking that we are lacking something that everybody has and is completely necessary by being activated to think that we're at threat. I think of some of those- I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this- some of those alarm commercials, you know where they want you to alarm your home and they make you feel like your neighborhood is, everybody's getting broken into, you see the creepy guys outside ringing your doorbell and they've got, you know, they're casing your house. That's a great example of being zombified. [Athena agrees]Cause they are using your propensity to, to fear creepy looking strangers at your door to make you buy a product.
Athena:	00:19:16	Yeah. I saw one on the highway, it was a billboard that said, "You're on your way to work. So are the burglars".
Mary:	00:19:24	Yes! Perfect example!
Dave:	00:19:27	I get calls from the, from the Internet company. [laughter] The one I have my webpage through. And they're like, your webpage doesn't have private ownership. So, anyone who looks at your webpage like, knows who you are. And I'm like yeah that's the point of my webpage . Like, it's a picture of me! And so, but they, they're just like, "We're just warning you. And your webpage isn't safe". And I'm always like well if it was that unsafe, why did you sell it to me in the first place? [laughter] But they want to sell this other like, privacy thing.
Mary:	00:20:00	Yeah they do. And even, even the co- the, I thought you were going to go with the con artists who are calling you saying your Microsoft software is being infiltrated right this very minute but get out, you know, we need to help you. We're going to virtually, you know, come into your computer and protect it. That's exactly where you're being zombified! [Athena agrees] By these, in these con games, like "You're in immediate danger of having all your data wiped out, let us help you!" Um, that's another example of, and, and in the moment it seems plausible because you're on Wifi, you do have a computer. You do have Microsoft Windows, you think, “oh, it, it's possible.” And you, become alarmed. I've known very bright people, uh, I was sitting next to a woman on a plane, not just a couple months ago, she had just bought into one of these scams. Very, you know, business owner, very, had been very successful. She fell prey to this scam. Now is she stupid? No. She was zombified in the moment by one of these calls.
Athena:	00:21:09	Yeah. I got a call a couple of days ago or last week. Um, and the guy said, you know, "This is the police department, you're under investigation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And um, my heart rate went up even though he had a very, very thick accent. So I knew it was a scam from the moment he started talking.	But still I was like, “what do you mean I'm under investigation?” Like my, you know, my brain was still getting activated by hearing those words even though it was very clearly a scam. And I'm pretty sure it was just a recording as well. Right?
Dave:	00:21:44	Yeah. I would get recordings that I had not paid taxes like, and then I was like under investi-, they were like, "This is the fourth call from the IRS". And I like looked it up and like it was like, no, the IRS, doesn't just have a robo- call. Like they let you know, like you know, before the fourth call. And so, but it's freaky. [Athena and Mary agree] Cause I'm always like, “I dunno, maybe one year I could've forgotten.” [Mary chuckled] Especially like when I was running a small business and I had a bunch of clients, I was like, "Oh my God." Yeah. So um, it was..
Mary:	00:22:13	Right. There, that's a really another good example. Like we, we can be zombified and it's not because we're dumb, it's because in those moments we are highly stressed, highly activated, physiologically aroused, and we are not processing complexly. We are zeroed in on the threat. And we want to alleviate that threat as soon as possible. [Athena agrees]
Dave:	00:22:34	Now, I have a question about, cause I seem to suffer from a different type of stress when I like, I always seem like I'm the least stressed when I'm like working my head off and then I come home and I start thinking, "Oh my gosh, like", well when is it I'm driving traffic, which is stressful. And then I'm thinking, "Oh I want to try to like move closer to school but it's so expensive and it seems like it's getting more expensive cause it's getting built up" and I get just panicked when I have-
Athena:	00:23:04	Time to think?
Dave:	00:23:04	Time to think. That's the one, like, I'm much better when I'm like, you know, when I'm like, "okay, this is what I gotta do today". And it's a lot. But then they just do it and I do it, I do it. But then when it's like stops, then I get like panicked. And in like the early morning and late at night are always like, my most panicked times, you know? [Mary agrees] And it's usually, I think, about things I have very little control over like the housing market or you know, like things like that. Like they just, and so, I dunno, I'm just sort of curious as to how that affects people. Like, that sort of stress.
Mary:	00:23:47	Well I think that's a little bit of another example- dare I say it- of being zombified and you are not alone. You know, that we go down these paths in our brains, you know, we've got these big brains and they're so good in so many ways, but, but they afford us lots of opportunity to live in the past and ruminate about what we have done, what we should have done.
Dave:	00:24:11	Right. That's true.
Mary:	00:24:12	Right? Do, do you do that as well?
Dave:	00:24:15	Right when I'm thinking about the housing market and I'm always like, "Oh I could have bought in 2008...
Mary:	00:24:16	Yeah! “Oh, if only I had bought when the market”, -Yes- if only! Oh my gosh. Yes. So we ruminate about the past; and we ruminate or, or think about the future and that makes us worry. So we worry, worry, worry. And in those moments, you are actually not living that moment, right? You're living something in the past which is gone or something in the future, which is yet to come. So I would say that's a version of how we are zombified; we spend very little time, I would say when you're working, it sounds like you're right in that you're in the "flow" as Csikszentmihalyi would say. When he wrote about being in the "flow". You have lost track of time because you are so focused on doing what you're doing.
Dave:	00:25:03	And I know and I'm like, “okay, so this is what your doing.”
Mary:	00:25:07	Yeah, this is what we're doing. And you're, and it's all, it's all good.
Dave:	00:25:09	Outlook. Outlook takes care of everything. You know? and so,
Athena:	00:25:11	Well and it's, and it's also, it sounds like you have a feeling of like efficacy and like you're getting the stuff done. And maybe like a little more control and then when all that is over, it's like all this shit that you can't control. [Mary and Dave agree]
Mary:	00:25:25	Yeah, I think that's right. And so I think, I think that rumination and that forecasting our efforts to control what isn't controllable. The future isn't controllable. Can you take steps to move yourself in a direction you think you want to go? Absolutely. But thinking about it, ruminatively isn't moving in that direction.
Dave:	00:25:44	I probably spent three years of my life, you know, like if you just put it all together, just ruminating.
Mary:	00:25:50	Yeah. [Athena laughs]
Dave:	00:25:52	Just like an hour every morning and an hour every night, you know, like, and so, and I've never felt like, "Oh, that was such a good use of-"
Mary:	00:26:11	[Mary and Athena laugh] That made me feel so happy!
Dave:	00:26:11	I've-finally I've solved it! Yeah um, I've always wond- like, why do, why do we do that? Like why, like why do our brains fixate on stuff like that or my brain at least, you know?
Mary:	00:26:22	I think there's variability so that a lot, some people don't do that. I know it's surprising for those of us who do do it. [Dave laughs] That anybody could not be doing that. Um, you know, I don't have a good answer for it. Uh, but I think it, it probably does link to our sense of wanting to try to have some sense control. And I think the antidote to it is really trying to, um, to focus back on the moment. No, we're, one of the things that I've studied and practiced is mindfulness. And that is really the whole, the central point of it to try to live the moment. When we're ruminating, when we're forecasting, thinking about the future. We're really caught in that experience as if it's real and it's as if it's who we are. You know, it's just, there were just this one big blobby non-complex ball of probably anxiety and thinking. Yeah,
Dave:	00:27:25	Sure.
Mary:	00:27:25	Right? Does that feel familiar?
Dave:	00:27:26	Yes.
Mary:	00:27:27	Yeah. And so the idea is, how do you increase, how do you, how do you come back to a sense of complexity of what's happening? And that's by trying to start to separate out this moment and who you are is not your thinking. Who you are is not your anxiety. Who you are is not your sadness. Who you are is not, even your joy. You're separate from those things. Those are part of your experience. And they move through like the breeze moves through as opposed to being, acting like thinking, feeling like it is me. I am my anxiety, I am my ruminative thinking like it's all just this one big blob of me all fused together. So the idea is how do we get un- and that's zombified. I'm this one big blob of a kind of, um, reacting, automatically reacting, automatically ruminating, automatically worrying about the future. Automated. It's automatic, right? So how do you become less automatic? And one way to do it is to try to become more mindful. So, you actually can then make choices about what you wanna do.
Dave:	00:28:32	So let's say that even the, I don't know that this was, but, so, like, with my stress, right? There's a lot of times it's also, there's this idea of the things that are out of my control. And then I also have this feeling where it's like, - almost like the world is going to be developed to the point where like, my kids have nowhere to live. You know what I mean? And I'm just like, I get this like-
Athena:	00:29:03	The Stress Apocalypse.
Dave:	00:29:04	Yeah. And, and then it's like, and I tell myself, "Okay, I got to get up and I got to get showered and I gotta get the kids ready for school." But it's hard to fight that sort of voice of, but eventually "what's the world going to be like for them? And are they gonna be able to even get jobs because the world is changing so much?" You know? And like how can somebody be mindful under those circumstances, I guess-
Athena:	00:29:33	When the apocalypse is coming? Is that what you're saying?  [laughter]
Dave:	00:29:39	Exactly! In the face of-
Athena:	00:29:39	How to be mindful in the apocalypse! [ laughter]
Mary:	00:29:41	The truth is, that we don't know what the future holds. Who could have imagined a hundred, hundred-fifty years ago, what the world would look like, who could imagine 20 years ago what the world would look like today. We don't know what's going to happen. And so, um thinking and worrying is spending a lot of time on something we just have no idea about. So, again, I think it's our effort to try to exert some control by thinking we can see the future or control the future and we can't. So, how, so what's the, what's the antidote? The antidote is to live well now, this moment and this moment and this moment- according to your priorities. See, I'm circling back. On the theme of live well now in line with your priorities and values and what you want to be contributing, what makes meaning for you. And the future will take care of itself. And I, you know, I think when I, when I get overwhelmed sometimes I, I've been worrying about climate change since I was in the fifth grade. So it's been like, I don't know, 50 years, 40 whatever it is, 45, 50 years I've been worrying about this. Like how much good did it do me to worry for 50 years? Like that's all a lot of it. Like you're ruminating sounds like a lot of work. And my mom, she has a saying for everything and she's, you know, I've just learned she's always right. Um, light a candle where you are. And that is, this is the moment. Do in this moment what matters, how you can contribute. In whatever way you can, small or large. And for most of us at the smaller. And that, the future will take care of itself. So light a candle and I say that to myself at least three, three times a week. Like a like, no, no. Just light the candle, just light a candle.
Dave:	00:31:35	So, so by lighting a candle, it's like lighting a candle against the sort of darkness that you're afraid of? Or just like, what does the candle sort of signify?
Mary:	00:31:44	It sort of, light a candle where you are. So, instead of, you can think about, um, all the possibility, horrific things in the future, the global whatever, and be paralyzed by that. Do you find it paralyzing?
Dave:	00:31:55	Yes.
Mary:	00:31:56	Yeah. So you can be paralyzed by that -versus, taking this moment and in this moment doing your part to make the world a better place in whatever way you have determined that to be. So rather than be paralyzed, do something in line with your values and something that's meaningful to you.
Dave:	00:32:20	Okay. That makes sense.
Mary:	00:32:21	Does that make sense?
Dave:	00:32:22	It does.
Mary:	00:32:22	It's like, so if you can get paralyzed by it, zombie, which is zombified, right? That paralysis is another version of zombification. So, how do you take this moment and act in this moment according to what matters? And by that in that way, you're lighting a little candle where you are, wherever you are and that contributes towards moving to the few, to a future. And by the way, you know, people talk about planting trees now that you may never see, you may never sit under a tree, you can't know you plant a tree because it matters to you to plant the tree. And you get to see, maybe you'll get to see it bloom and grow. Maybe you won't. But what matters is you're planting the tree. Now.
Dave:	00:33:04	That makes sense.
Mary:	00:33:05	And maybe tomorrow and the next day you're planting these trees and you're just saying, "Okay, I trust that I'm going to act according to my values. I'm going to light my little candle or plant my little tree and it's gonna- It's- I'm going to contribute" whether it's, you know, creating more justice in the world, having an impact on climate change, making, you know, my community kinder, whatever acts you can do, small and large, on a day to day basis to contribute, that's what you can do to become un-zombified. And make, you know, un-paralyze yourself.
Dave:	00:33:40	Right. And I do find that that helps for me at night, like at night sometimes. So, since my computer is still here at work. I'll come by like after, cause often I go to the gym like after work and then I'll come back for a little while and either write or work and I feel like I'm moving forward on projects I care about and then I can go home those nights and feel better.
Athena:	00:34:06	Well, and you're helping to like, reduce the global burden of zombification. [Mary agrees] By making this podcast, too. [Mary agrees] Right?
Dave:	00:34:17	Yeah that's true but, I mean, I- I'm not stressed just about the global burden as much as I'm stressed about my own personal work, you know what I mean?
Mary:	00:34:26	Like, yeah, I think it is interesting if you, um, if you just try a little experiment, like, I carry around this little book. And every day I write down, um, I do mindfulness meditation. I write down at least one thing I'm grateful for. I write down some way, I've connected with other people and I write down, because it matters to me, writing. Have I, have I written something today? Have I work towards writing? Because that's something that matters to me. And there is something of value about tracking. You know what, you pay attention to, what you actually monitor, changes. And so if you, if you try this and see if it has some kind of impact on your well-being over, I would say several weeks time, that'll be great information for you because that's a way to try to de-zombify. Okay, I'm gonna write down, I have, I acted in ways that matter to me, today. And what are those things? Have I savored some moments today? And the data show that will improve your sense of well-being. And the great thing about that improved sense of well being is it makes you feel like you can move, move out and act more in the world.
Athena:	00:35:41	So, what do we know about the mechanisms that underlie that? Like, why does stress make it hard for us to really be kind of present with what's important for us and think complexly? And then how does mindfulness make, like, bring us back to ourselves?
Mary:	00:35:59	Well, I think that we have evolved to respond to acute stressors that-that abate quickly. You know, the predator attacks and it either eats you or are you escape. And then the predator is no longer threatening you when you calm down and go on gathering and hunting or whatever you're doing. But we evolved into a complex world. Where we now have a sense that the stress is ongoing. So, we have chronic, chronic stress. We are acting as if we're on high alert all the time or most of the time. And so that system that evolved to simplify our thinking so we could get away or you know, freeze or fight now is activated a lot more of the time. So we act as if we're in this state of high alert, simplified thinking. And in the interest of making ourselves more complex thinkers, again, we need to kind of calm down and expand our capacity to process information and, and feeling- I don't know if you've ever, um, paid attention to when you feel your most creative. Is that when you're juggling childcare and laundry deadlines, grant deadlines, grading papers, in-laws visiting, [Athena laughs] right? Are you your most creative? Like, Whoa, boy! I'm so- My mind is just expanded! I'm thinking of new things. No! [laughter] Right? No, you're, you're at your most simple. You are not thinking outside the box when all those things are happening. So to the extent that we can slow down and pay attention and boost our sense of fulfillment and joy and meaning, it helps us become more creative. It helps us feel more productive, especially in the things that matter to us. [Athena confirms] Does that answer your question?
Athena:	00:37:54	Yeah. So I have another question which, uh, Dave and I were sort of talking about this earlier, which is about contagion. Like, stress. Is stress contagious?
Mary:	00:38:07	Seems to be.
Mary:	00:38:09	Do you know anything about how and why that happens?
Mary:	00:38:13	Well, I think, and I think again, it probably there's an, there are individual differences in how contagious, how much we pick up contagion of others for good and ill. But, um, you know, some social network analysis, I'm trying to remember if they measured stress. Um, uh, looking at just social networks and how, you know, obesity moves through social networks. Smoking risk can move through social networks. And um, mood can move through social networks. So we can experience even not, not just, just, you know, one-to-one, but beyond, it kind of can, can be contagious from person to person to person. So, I suspect, I haven't studied this, um, that there's a lot of variability, individual differences in how much we absorb and catch other people's moods.
Athena:	00:39:05	For me. Like, if there's people who are stressed around me, like, I get stressed. But like my husband, I mean, it could be literally the Zombie Apocalypse around him and he could just be like filling out this form and be fine. And so, yeah, definitely. I mean, in my personal life, I noticed this like huge difference.
Mary:	00:39:25	Yeah. That was, some of us are more sensitive and are more likely to pick up and absorb whatever is going on around us and that may be good and bad. [Athena agrees] It can be a double edge. So yeah, I think stress, can be contagious. And it's useful then to be aware of. Sometimes you think, “why am I, why am I stressed?” And then you realize you've abs-, you've really absorbed the stress of somebody else, right? It's not even yours. So it's yet again, another way that being aware and mindful can help you say, "Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm feeling this and it's really not what's going on in my experience right at this moment". That can help you let it go.
Athena:	00:40:02	Yeah. And how about for the other side of that? So, you know, how can you keep from stressing other people out? Like, are there, you know, so you're not perpetuating this stress zombification through your social networks and family and workplace.
Mary:	00:40:18	Well, I think the more that you pay attention on a day-to-day, even moment-to-moment basis, to the extent that that's possible, um, of your own moments and your own, uh, meaning-making, you're going to be less stressed and more even, uh, even-keeled yourself. So you're gonna, you're gonna have less stress to, to infect other people with.
Athena:	00:40:42	Mindfulness is contagious too, maybe?
Mary:	00:40:44	I think it is. Yeah, I do. I think, um, you know, you've, you've been around people who are just, have this evenness.
Athena:	00:40:52	Yeah. Kind of like you.
Mary:	00:40:53	Oh, well, you're being very kind. [laughter]
Athena:	00:40:55	It's true, though right? [laughter]
Mary:	00:40:59	And that, that, that can be really useful. Because it, you know, we, we do regulate one another. We are social creatures. So, to the extent that you become a little more even you can also affect other people and help make them more even.
Dave:	00:41:13	So, so like you were saying, when I was talking about my sort of like nighttime stress to like make a list like, and that was seemed like really good practical sort of thing. In terms of being self aware in the moment of being stressed because that seems to me like that could be a thing really difficult for people. What should people do in order to facilitate that?
Mary:	00:41:34	I'm sooo glad you asked. I might've left this out. Um, there is this wonderful tool we have called, breathing.
Athena:	00:41:48	[laughter] How expensive is that?
Mary:	00:41:51	It is priceless! You could not pay someone enough to attain it. And it, um, the beauty of breathing is that, it's always there, it's free. And um, when you breathe the pace, your breathing and breathe slowly and deeply, you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system.
Athena:	00:42:14	Can we do it for a minute here?
Mary:	00:42:15	Absolutely. Do you want me to-
Athena:	00:42:17	Yeah.
Mary:	00:42:17	Let me just guide you. Well just settle into your chairs a little bit. Means leaning back away from the microphone... And just feel your, your seat, you know the way the back of your legs meet your seat, your feet on the ground. You can just rest your hands gently in your lap. And just take about three breaths. Just noticing, when you breathe in, how the air flows into your lungs and into your belly. And then as you breathe out, the air feels a little more warm and moist. And again, as you breathe in... And as you breathe out... And if you notice yourself thinking or worrying, just notice that. Maybe label it. "Oh, there is a worry." And then just come back to your breathing. Just come back to the breath. That's your anchor in this moment. Yeah, your shoulders settle down a little bit. And feel yourself centered in your breath. If your attention is called away to some part of your body, maybe some sensation of tightness or pain, discomfort of any kind. Just notice it. You don't have to change it. Don't do anything with it. Just notice it. Label it. "Oh, there's tightness, there's pressure". And then just let it go very gently. Then come back to your breath. Breathing in... And out. Maybe just taking two more breaths... And then just wiggling your fingers and toes and maybe moving your feet around. And when you're ready, just open your eyes. We're back.
Athena:	00:44:45	Oh, that was great.
Dave:	00:44:46	That is very relaxing. [Athena agrees]
Mary:	00:44:48	It's amazing, isn't it? And it doesn't, you know, the beauty of it is, you don't have to be a monk, you know, in a, in a, a sanctuary or monastery on some high mountain, doing this hours and hours a day. Very little practice on a regular basis, can really help in any moments you can do this. You know? I, I pause throughout the day and just breathe two or three breaths, to anchor myself in the moment.
Athena:	00:45:14	But, what if you don't do it perfectly?
Mary:	00:45:16	Oh yeah. Good. That's a great question! Thank you for asking that too! Right. And that's, that's a common question people have like, "Oh, that was such an awful breathing. Cause of my mind was everywhere and my body hurt. Oh, it just is a disaster". It's exactly how it should be. However it is for you, whatever time you do it, it changes. Usually changes from time to time to time to time. It's exactly what it needs to be.
Athena:	00:45:39	So it's okay to be a disaster, sometimes?
Mary:	00:45:41	It's, it's not, I wouldn't even call it a disaster. [laughter] Cause it is what it is, Right? It is what it is. “Oh, today. Yeah. Today was a day where my mind was just all over the place”, you know. “Oh wow. That's the kind of day that was. Huh. Interesting." It's all interesting. Just be curious about whatever's there and don't try to change it.
Dave:	00:46:00	So now, what about for people if they're getting stressed in a social situation and they may be aware like, "Oh I should take time to breathe." But, how do they set that up? You know what I mean? Like cause, it's like, let's say like - what's a situation where someone's going to be stressed around?
Mary:	00:46:21	Well if, say you're going to a party or something or-
Dave:	00:46:23	Well a party, the party is like a situation where you could probably walk outside. But, say somebody is like, either, like with... Well, the one that comes to my mind, for myself is, I was taking my kids on a ski trip. And they, I had just spent all this money buying them skis and stuff and they were like, the boots. They didn't like the boots, you know? And I was getting totally overwhelmed because I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this is a disaster." But my kids are there. Um, and so...
Athena:	00:46:55	Yeah, actually can I expand this out? Cause the thing I wanted to ask about was like in families and like with kids because kids get stressed really easily, right? I mean, and that's totally normal. And like in today's world I think there's even more because they're getting sucked into this huge system with all these stressors too, at an early age. And so, like, when you are in a family context and when you are trying to maybe help your kids deal with the stress because the boots are uncomfortable-
Dave:	00:47:24	Right. And they are also probably picking up on my stress, too. [agreement]
Athena:	00:47:24	-or they forgot their homework or- yeah. [Mary agrees] So, how, as parents, or as members of a family, or just of any good, any close social group, you know, where you're influencing each other. Like, I think especially like with kids cause I, I think for those of us who have kids, we're worried about our kids' stress.
Mary:	00:47:45	Yeah. And you're responsible for them. There's so much of a tie. Um, I think the, the bottom line is, you are right, Athena, that the best thing you can do is to be regulating yourself as priority one. So, breathing and realizing, oh, this isn't, this isn't a catastrophe or a disaster. It's just uncomfortable. Now it's just a moment of discomfort. Um, it's not, and it'll, and it'll change. And then when your kids are stressed, I think if you're modeling that and speaking that way, "Yeah, this is really uncomfortable." Not, not dismissing their stress or discomfort. I mean, it does exist for them saying, "Yeah, I get it. It's really uncomfortable. So what do you think we can do? Can we just take a moment? Let's just, let's just think about what we can do". So you kind of lower the temperature. You acknowledge the distress and without adding the fuel to the fire. "Yeah. Oh my God, it is a catastrophe! What are we..." Like, yeah, "It's really, this is really not very satisfying, right? It's just not the way we would want it if we got to choose, everything was happening right now. It's kind of, it feels like kind of a bummer. So what can we do? How can we, what are, what can we do to make this go better?"
Athena:	00:48:59	Hmm. So you kind of engage them in how can you change the situation? Maybe restoring some sense of control?
Mary:	00:49:08	Yeah. And in a way, you're doing in a, in a mini version of what we're doing, like pause, right? You're taking, taking a little moment to pause and breathe. You're kind of labeling the situation in a more objective way. Not so, not disaster, but "Yeah it's uncomfortable. Maybe not exactly what we would choose" and acknowledging the discomfort and then saying, "Okay, given that now we've now we were with it. What are our choices?"
Dave:	00:49:35	"Go hooome." [laughter]
Mary:	00:49:40	Yeah, we could do that. Really? Is that what you want to do? Cause there, here's some other options. You know, you, you for it. Depending on the ages of your kids, your, you can help them work through. "Well that's an option." Sure we could do that. And "here's some other possibilities. So let's think about what, whether that's the one we want. Are there these other possibilities?" Yeah. "So what do you think we could, we could go home, we could try to make, we could try out these skis, see what happens, you know, and if we don't like it, we can go home after that." You know, you can start to like, take a moment and really again, become de-zombified and think a little bit more complexly and help your kids see how you're working it through with them.
Athena:	00:50:22	Yeah. I have the same thing as you where like, if it seems like I've done all this planning to make something really good and then the kids like, they get stressed and so then they don't want to do it. I'm like, “But, I spent all this time”. Right. And so it like, it stresses me because I feel like I've spent all this time to make, you know, and spent money and whatever. And it's like we have, but we have just this one weekend or what, you know. [everyone agrees] Yeah. But then, I mean it totally makes sense to like say, "Okay, well maybe they also just need that open space to process a little bit and that I don't have to think just because they're saying they don't like it or they want to go home. That that's actually what we have to do now." [Mary agrees] Cause I think,
Mary:	00:51:06	That's exactly right. Cause that's very automatic. [Athena agrees] Right. Let's, uh, they're distressed, let's get rid of this distress. Okay. We'll go home. [Dave agrees] Versus saying, "Oh, they're distressed. Okay, let's just take a moment and yeah, and the distress is real. Okay. Let's just call it that. Yeah. It's kind of uncomfortable, boy, it's not quite what we planned."[Athena agrees] "Not going quite the way we planned. So what are, what can we do, what are our options?" And going home is certainly one of them, but there are other…. it's not one of yours? [laughter] They can say, "Well, we could, we could try them out and if we don't like it, we can, you know, stop for the day. We could, um, take them off now and go, just walk in the snow for the moment." You know, I don't know what the options would be-
Dave:	00:51:51	Like, and I think if I had had that conversation with the kids.
Mary:	00:51:54	Let's go have a snowball fight, get some of the energy out,
Dave:	00:51:57	Or even said, well, the reason I would like to, um, for us to try it is - whatever reason I would have had, which is that- this is a skill that I think they'll really enjoy and then
Mary:	00:52:08	How about if we just give it a try? [agreement] Like five minutes? [agreement]
Athena:	00:52:13	It sounds like otherwise we kind of all end up zombifying each other and it's almost like this, I don't know, I've just had this image of a pinball machine and the ball is like bouncing around everywhere and activating everything and then like the whole system, um, ends up doing something that really isn't in control. It's just... [agreement]
Mary:	00:52:31	And I think we're, we get ourselves set up for those kinds of things when we create these idealized versions of what things are going to be, you know, people, this happens around the holiday season. [agreement] Family is going to be together, the meal is going to be great. We're going to be sitting by the fire-although not in Arizona-and um, that it's going to be fabulous. Like we see portrayed all around us. And it turns out to be not that. And it can be really easy to get zombified in those situations like "This as a disaster! How come everybody else's family is happy and my family has conflict?" Yeah. Right? [laughter] But it's so, I think we can become a little trapped. And zombification can occur when we set up, we set up an idealized sense of what something's going to be. A vacation, [agreement] You know, whatever. And when it doesn't play out the way we imagined, we can, we can be set up to, um, be really disappointed and get caught in stress-stressful, lonely, sad, etcetera. As opposed to saying, "Well, this is what it is. Interesting."
Athena:	00:53:32	And so, kind of getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. [agreement] Sometimes.
Mary:	00:53:51	Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. If we can become more comfortable with being uncomfortable, we will feel happier over time, have more well-being over time. It's in this ironic kind of way. [agreement] You know, it sounds crazy, but it's like if we can just get a little bit more tolerant of discomfort without having to do anything about it, well-being, it will increase. I mean, there are data.
Athena:	00:54:04	Yeah. So it's like if we sort of deal a little bit with the fact that yes, sometimes we get zombified sometimes our kids get zombified we aren't always in control. But just being aware and seeing that maybe helps us to get some of that feeling of autonomy back. And get back in the driver's seat a little bit.
Mary:	00:54:24	Yeah. It does. Yeah. Noticing when you're zombified. Pausing. Right. Now, don't forget the pause and the breathing. [agreement] And, and paying attention to the moment, acting in accordance with what matters to you and with what matters to each of you is being a good parent. Helping your kids learn to deal with discomfort and disappointment and move forward. And Yeah.
Dave:	00:54:48	That's actually part of why we were going skiing in first place. [agreement] It was sort of for them to practice doing something that's sort of difficult. But, then it gets easier. [agreement]
Mary:	00:54:58	So, yeah. So if you can do that, um, notice when you're most zombified and in those moments breathe and then see what the options are to move forward.
Athena:	00:55:09	So kind of combat the mindlessness of being a zombie with some mindfulness?
Mary:	00:55:15	That would be my prescription.
Athena:	00:55:16	Excellent. Well, Mary, thank you so much.
Mary:	00:55:20	Oh, it's my pleasure, really.
Athena:	00:55:21	For talking to us today. This was, awesome.
Dave:	00:55:25	I think this was great. I think this was very, yeah um, and it really sort of drove home this sort of idea- especially when we were talking about sort of families and how the stress of one person sort of does infect the rest of the family with stress. Cause that really is, on top, beyond the nighttime stress I was talking about. We definitely, we definitely have that. Where it's like one person in the family and then everyone in the family is getting stressed.
Mary:	00:55:45	Well you know one of the things we didn't talk about and you might edit this in, is this notion be it kind of what we talked about earlier about feeling like, "Oh my gosh I've got all these things to do." [Athena agrees] So, we have no, we feel we have no reserve. Right? There's nothing to give beyond, "I'm giving everything." [Athena agrees] So when something like a ski boot breakdown happens, we have, we were at our worst in terms of being able to breathe, breathe our way into kind of some calmness. [Dave agrees] So it's like layer, it's layered on top of the ongoing-that's why I think this kind of building in some daily prioritization, breathing etc. helps make it easier in those family crisis moments when your kids are, you know, you're activated cause your kids are stressed and now you're stressed. You don't have a lot of reserve. [Athena agrees]
Dave:	00:56:36	So, so let's, let's address this real quick because, I was picturing it before as we do the breathing as a sort of, um, I'm trying to think of like there's two different types of like medicine. Like the medicine, like almost like a Tylenol you take after the headache has started or are you sort of saying we should take it more like a vitamin?
Athena:	00:56:56	Preventative.
Mary:	00:56:58	Yes. Preventative. So, building a practice. Just like you, if you want to run a marathon, you run, you know, you train. Uh, mindfulness works the same way. So the regularity, and I would say doing it every day or nearly every day for whatever moments you can is more important than doing it once a week for an hour. Okay. Because just like running for an hour on a weekend would be painful and not necessarily produce the kind of gains and fitness that you hope to achieve. So daily, brief, daily. And then building on that creates a bigger sense of being able to live mindfully and be, tolerate discomfort. Because you are going to be uncomfortable if you sit, you know, if you meditate, you're going to get, feel your anxiety and label it and let it go and over and over and over again. And that builds your capacity to tolerate distress. It kind of sneaks up on you. You'll all of a sudden say, "Oh, I'm, I'm dealing better with this than I used to." "How interesting." And then in the moments when you need it, you can use it again. So it is like Tylenol, regular Tylenol, and then when you're, when you have a bad headache, you can use it then too.
Athena:	00:58:08	Okay. I've got one more, I promise it's short. So it's the morning. And like, nobody's had breakfast yet. The lunches are only half made and there are no socks that my daughter likes that are available. Um, and there's no way anybody's going to get to school on time. So in that kind of scenario, like how, how do you actually find that peace and that like non-frantic-ness when it feels like the only way of solving the problem is with a totally crazy, frantic, stressed approach. [Dave chuckles]
Mary:	00:58:49	Well, okay. So I'm, I just, have to confess that I'm not a parent. So, I haven't had those-I mean, I have been a child in those moments, but I have not been a parent it those moments. [Athena laughs] So, take this with a-
Athena:	00:58:58	I think any, any you know, any situation where it's like the time, like, the time is stressing you. And so it feels like the way to solve it is to be frantic and crazy, but that just going to make you like-
Mary:	00:59:11	It's going to make it worse.
Athena:	00:59:12	-drop the thing and forget something and like it's gonna get worse. Right?
Mary:	00:59:15	So I think you start, here's my guess. If you started by saying, "What is the worst that could happen? My kids will be late to school." Is that a disaster? Is it a disaster?
Dave:	00:59:29	I know it's, I, I've, I've, my kids have been late to school enough times that I can actually say-
Mary:	00:59:32	And you have lived to tell about it. [laughter]
Dave:	00:59:37	-getting the letter from the school-
Athena:	00:59:41	Me too! I've gotten the letter, too!
Dave:	00:59:41	-and it doesn't even phase me cause I'm like...
Mary:	00:59:43	You know what, it's life. Right?
Athena:	00:59:45	I even got a call from the-yeah, yeah.
Mary:	00:59:48	And you too, are here and living to tell about it. [Athena laughs] So, some mornings are like that and so you say, "Okay, well we're going to do the best we can." Just do the best you can. [Athena agrees] And maybe it's that your kids are going to be late and, oh well, Maybe they're going to have kind of mediocre lunches or whatever. Or maybe you're going to have to spend a little bit of time with your daughter going through, you know, the dirty socks to find the ones that are the cleanest that she likes.
Athena:	01:00:16	I like how we're coming full circle to wearing dirty clothes as a solution. [laughter]
Mary:	01:00:23	Yes! Because again, you spray a little perfume on it, all is good. No one will know.
Dave:	01:00:29	I wish I had the problem of kids not wanting to wear dirty clothes. [laughter] I have to do checks where I'm like [laughter] "I feel like you were wearing that Thursday. [Mary laughs] How many days has it been?"
Mary:	01:00:45	I love that. I love that.
Dave:	01:00:47	I do find that, that solution of just being like, "All right, we're going to be late and we'll live" That is like, the one-
Athena:	01:00:56	It diffuses it.
Dave:	01:00:57	Yeah, so um-
Mary:	01:00:57	It does. It does. Because when you're thinking in that frantic mode, you are acting as if the world will end if you don't get your kids school on time.
Athena:	01:01:06	And then your kids feel that and then they freak out.
Dave:	01:01:07	It really feels like it.
Mary:	01:01:07	It does. Because, because we frame it like "I'm going to die." [Athena laughs] It's this very strange way. We interpret these very benign challenges as if we are going to die. [Dave agrees] And so, if you can reorient yourself, say, "Oh no, no, this isn't one of those-"
Athena:	01:01:29	"No, you're not going to die. You're just undead right now."
Mary:	01:01:33	Yes. Yes.[Athena laughs] "Yeah, you're not going to die. You might suffer a little social, you know, sanctioning. Like, the teacher may call you. Oh, well, oh well. But if you really are clear about your values and meaning the teacher's call is not going to be, also going to be that bad. It's like, "Oh yeah, well guess what? I loved my kids this morning. We taught them some coping skills." [Athena laughs] "We're good. Yeah, we were late. Sorry for you." It's going to be more like that. [Dave, Athena and Mary agree]
Athena:	01:02:03	Well, thank you for sharing all this with us. For the mindfulness practice tips and, um, for helping us, even in this moment, me and Dave, I think, I feel, I feel like really mellow and relaxed. [Dave agrees] 
Mary:	01:02:17	Do you, do you really? Are you just flattering me? Do you really feel better? [Mary chuckles]
Dave:	01:02:21	And actually, I was gonna say, so between, now and, when is our next one of these? Do you know?
Athena:	01:02:22	I don't know yet.
Dave:	01:02:26	I think it's like a couple of weeks from now. Right?
Athena:	01:02:27	Something like that.
Dave:	01:02:28	So between now and then, I'm going to try every night to do the list. And so what are the three things I'm supposed to do on the list?
Mary:	01:02:34	Well, you, you can choose whatever three you want or I have four. One is a meditation. One is gratitude. Feeling it and expressing it actually is even better.
Dave:	01:02:45	Like writing it down?
Mary:	01:02:47	Yeah, well uh, I write it down, what I was grateful for. But, if it's for someone-
Dave:	01:02:49	Oh, like tell somebody?
Mary:	01:02:50	Like, yeah, sure. Like actually, I do really appreciate both of you getting to spend this time with you.
Athena:	01:02:55	It was.
Mary:	01:02:55	It's been really fun and just a joy.
Athena:	01:02:57	Dave, I appreciate you as a co-host. [Mary laughs]
Dave:	01:02:59	Thanks, I appreciate you bringing me on with this project. [Athena laughs]
Mary:	01:03:02	You have to mean it.
Dave:	01:03:04	I do. So um-
Mary:	01:03:06	So um, gratitude. Connection, so, so some kind of meaningful social connection.
Dave:	01:03:12	Okay.
Mary:	01:03:12	Then, for me it includes writing, just doing some writing.
Dave:	01:03:16	Okay. So, all right. I'm going to try, I'll try to do all four and see how I do. Or actually, I'll tell myself-
Athena:	01:03:21	The fourth thing is like-
Mary:	01:03:25	For you.
Athena:	01:03:26	-of choice.
Dave:	01:03:26	Yeah. That's also for me.
Mary:	01:03:26	Okay. Okay.
Dave:	01:03:27	You know what I'll do, to make it a little easier? I'll do every night, I'll try to do three out of the four. Right? I'll mix it up.
Mary:	01:03:33	Great.
Dave:	01:03:33	So we'll see how it goes.
Mary:	01:03:35	I'll be really interested.
Athena:	01:03:36	You'll report back?
Dave:	01:03:37	So I will, yeah, I'll report back next podcast so.
Mary:	01:03:39	Excellent. Okay. [Laughter] Ooooooo. [Athena and Mary laugh]
Dave:	01:03:45	Uh, cool!
Athena:	01:03:45	Awesome. Thank you so much.
Mary:	01:03:47	You're very welcome.
Outro:	01:03:48	[LEMI's 'Psychological' plays]
Athena:	01:05:05	Thank you to the Department of Psychology for supporting this podcast and also to all of the brains at ASU that helped make this podcast happen. That includes people in lots of different centers and, uh, aspects of ASU. Uh, especially grateful, uh, to have a strategic initiative called the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative, which is helping to make this podcast possible and also to the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics for their support, as well. And my lab, the Aktipis Lab, the Cooperation and Conflict Lab for all of their help with putting this podcast together. And of course the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance. I, I love you guys. If you want to follow us, we are on Twitter and Instagram, just 'zombifiedpod'; On Patreon we're 'zombified'; and our website is zombified.org. So, thank you again to all of the brains that help to make this podcast possible and everybody who has shared their brains with me. Um, so now we're done with the credits.
Athena:	01:06:27	I'm going to share a little bit of my brain with you. Um, so I usually will tell a little story or talk about my work or offer a little speculation and, um, I'm kind of, kind of going to try to do all of those three things this time. Um, and hopefully it won't go too, too, too long. So here's this story: I have been thinking about stress for a long time, partially because, I constantly am getting stressed out when I am around my husband and he is stressed and it's like I can't help but like take on his stress or feel his stress. He'll be like sitting next to me doing his email and he'll like sigh like that kind of like, [huuuuhhh sound] and immediately I'm all stressed and it's like I wasn't even stressed. But then like I heard him make an exasperated sigh and now I'm all stressed out.
Athena:	01:07:30	And so I was wondering, I have been wondering for a long time about that. And um, this led me to some wild speculations, which, uh, are now actually in a paper that I have under review. Reviewer 2, I hope you like it. Um, so here's the idea. What if stress is partially contagious because of microbes? All right. Hear me out. So, we know that microbes can play a role in anxiety and in depression and there are a bunch of studies with mice that show that you can change the mood and the exploratory behavior and other aspects of mices' personalities, sort of- if you want to say that they have personalities- by changing their microbiomes. And we also know that in humans a different microbes are associated with different moods and different mood disorders and you can actually move people around in terms of, sort of aspects of their psychology and mental health by administering microbes.
Athena:	01:08:51	So all this work is early, but there are some clear results, at least in animal models, that there is some causative effect of microbes on our, as mammals, our mental states. Okay. So, if you take that idea. We know that microbes have some effects on stress, anxiety and we have known like forever that microbes are transmissible, right? Like that's the germ theory of disease. So if we just take those two ideas and then we just put them together, right? So microbes can affect our stress, anxiety and microbes are transmissible through social contact. Then that leads to the hypothesis, at least, that microbes might be a way of transmitting stress. So, yeah. So my husband, Carlo, I don't let him breathe on me when he's stressed. That's how I deal with it. All right. Thank you for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains.
Outro:	01:10:12	[LEMI's 'Psychological' plays]
Athena:	01:10:22	The whole point of this podcast is to like kind of push boundaries a little bit.
Mary:	01:10:26	Yeah. Yeah.
Athena:	01:10:26	To be a little bit provocative. Um, it's okay to swear, but maybe not-
Mary:	01:10:31	Oh, I probably, I mean, I do swear, I swear a lot. [Dave and Mary laughs]
Athena:	01:10:35	But it's okay. If you feel like it's important for making-
Mary:	01:10:39	Fuck yeaahh! [ laughter] That's not recording right?
Dave:	01:10:48	It is.
Athena:	01:10:48	It is. It is, actually. It's recording. [laughter]
Mary:	01:10:48	Oh, is it?? [laughter]
Dave:	01:10:48	We check out the levels to start originally. So, uh yeah.
Mary:	01:10:48	That is so funny.
Mary:	01:10:52	My husband is from New Jersey. So if I didn't swear before, after you know more than a decade, I swear.
Athena:	01:10:58	Right. Yeah.