[Show Intro]
Jala
Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! 
Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here!

[Intro music]

00:00.16
Jala
Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes and today I am joined by often co-host on Duckfeed's The Level podcast, Dennis Furia! Dennis how are you doing.

00:14.37
Dennis
Hello I'm doing good I have to resist the ah the impulse to go I'm Dennis Furia like I do at the start of every Level. So.

00:19.40
Jala
I know I know I was like oh oh I I kind of just want to be like I'm Jala Prendes you know I'm well although I always go I always go after you on that show though. So.

00:27.46
Dennis
Ah, it feels It feels so natural. This is true.

00:32.29
Jala
That wouldn't work I'd have to just be like hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place and just dead silence and that would be very awkward.

00:39.34
Dennis
This this feels this feels rebellious to me that ah that we're doing it in the opposite order. So this is like take that podcast conventions. Ah yeah, thanks for having me.

00:44.70
Jala
Well well you're in Jala-chan territory now friend. Yeah, so yeah I'm excited to have you on to talk about your card game deck of wonders today.

01:02.40
Jala
Of course people who listen to Duckfeed's The Level already know about the fact that you've been doing this card game. You've been working on it. They've gotten wonderful status updates. Um, you know whenever there are status updates to be had on that show during the banter or wherever it is that you insert it throughout the episode. Um, but yeah.

01:20.75
Jala
Ah, now we actually get to camp out and talk about your thing like in detail from the beginning. So.

01:25.20
Dennis
My day I baby this is this is a hundred percent a passion project. So yeah I'm I love love love talking about it and we'll get all to and into all the nooks and crannies of deck of wonders today.

01:36.98
Jala
Yeah, absolutely so on that note, how are you doing today.

01:45.54
Dennis
I'm good I am I am full. Um I had um one of my brothers was out of town and moved back into town. 1 of my brothers was in town but like you know, Mr high-flying career? Um, but they he just had a kid. And so like we're in this like family hangout renaissance right now because everyone's in the same town. Everyone's got kids. Um, so we're we're recording on a Sunday and you know we got together to watch the bangles game here in Cincinnati um, and you know the kids are all crawling over each other and the parents and and we're all hanging out and talking and.

02:17.53
Dennis
Um, so it's just like the real ah family warm fuzzies. Um, that ah that man it's been. It's been too long since we had normally normally it only happens over the holidays. Um, but now it's just like yeah this is this is Sunday now this is pretty sweet.

02:31.86
Jala
Yeah, that is very cool. Um, it's kind of like ah my sister she moved away in I want to say twenty ten and so it's been twelve years and she's been in a different state like all the way across the country and you know like she's.

02:46.98
Jala
Had children since then and like you know, um, we don't get to see them too often because the the distance and especially with Covid that really kind of put a ah wrench in the works for seeing um, seeing them because my parents are Immuno compromised. Um, but.

02:55.52
Dennis
Oh yeah.

03:03.71
Jala
We're hoping to maybe next year get a plan together to so you know reunite and see them the kids the kids she's got 2 and they are like the same ages as your 2 older kids like their their um child clock is about the same as your child clock with except they stopped it too.

03:23.35
Jala
So you know, um as a result like you know. Okay, if you haven't seen those kiddos in two years just how much they've grown in that point. So yeah, for sure so speaking of games though.

03:29.69
Dennis
Oh yeah, completely different ballgame.

03:38.19
Jala
And and we're not talking about the sports sports ball games. Um bengals and stuff like I'm I'm not into that but we will be talking about card games. So that's the first question I have for you about your startup like um first off, why did you decide to do a card.

03:56.80
Jala
Game and I know I I know the answer but I want you to tell everybody? yeah.

03:59.28
Dennis
yeah I'll yeah I'll tell that story of it. Um, so not not just a card game but a a solo card game. So this is solitaire. Um, but it's kind of solitaire on steroids. Um, like we just discussed I'm I'm a parent um you know and and have a nice busy calendar related to that. Um, but I love games I love deep complex games. Um, ah, but typically those take you know six friends and 8 hours and usually like 3 tables worth of space. You know set up to play and that that just doesn't exist in my life very often and anymore.

04:33.60
Dennis
Um, and so kind of why I gravitated towards a card game um was like anyone can fit a deck of cards in their pocket. Um, and if it's a solitaire game. That's something I can whip out I can set up and play. Um, while my kids are napping in in those 15 minute breaks that you sometimes get.

04:52.76
Dennis
Um, and I can play a game and and then put it away and be ready to go ah very easily and so just from from my own experiences loving loving gaming. Um, but really being hurting for time and you know you don't have to be a parent to be that way right? like there's there's a million different reasons that it's it's hard to find time.

05:11.38
Dennis
Ah, to game and and and you know all of those kind of combined together to make this um you know, ah card game Solitaire card game in your pocket work really? well so that that was kind of format wise the inspiration for deck of wonders.

05:22.13
Jala
Um, and and the thing is is that a card a deck of cards anymore is just like smaller than your phone like phones are only getting bigger I have a phone case I tried to put my phone in today. Um, you know, just like a little bag.

05:38.62
Jala
Carrying bag thing and it just doesn't even fit anymore because phones have gotten larger and like nobody's updating their stuff for you know tablet-sized phones. So so yeah, um, but yeah, what.

05:45.50
Dennis
No, of course not.

05:52.45
Jala
What actually got you decide like interested in making your own startup as well.

05:59.19
Dennis
Yeah I mean so I've I'm I'm no longer in this world. But when I started work on deck of wonders I was in the world of of like startup consulting um in in like entrepreneurial business model building and all that stuff that was my day job.

06:16.79
Dennis
And and so that kind of entrepreneurial side of things. Um is just something I was immersed in and you know I went to school for business and and you know have worked in that world and and so it just felt familiar territory that like hey if if I've got this idea for something that I want to make. Like I totally should try to do this as as a startup instead of just trying to go find a publisher or or anything like that. Um and finding a publisher can be a completely viable route. But I kind of knew from the start. Um that I'm I'm the kind of weird where doing the. Business model and all of the background work for deck of wonders was as much fun for me as the game design side of things and and I don't know if anyone listening relates to that like it is ah it is a special brand of weird um to to like that but like it's it's all candy for me and so I wanted to wanted to do this.

07:09.47
Dennis
Ah, kind of as as a venture of my own. Um and you know when I had the idea one of the things that kind of pushed me towards doing it was like this was an idea that felt like something that was accomplishable that way you know I I have you know I do a video game podcast with you. Have ideas for video games all the time but I have not an ounce of programming skill you know, um, and and so you know it's It's fun to daydream about that stuff and it's just fun inherently to talk about that stuff. Um, but I never really considered seriously pursuing it because I was like ah there's.

07:45.66
Dennis
There's a whole lot of learning that I need to do first before I think about doing something like that Seriously um, whereas with with this kind of you know making a physical product a lot more of my life experience lent towards to doing that you know right? off the bat.

08:02.85
Jala
Yeah, for sure and definitely you have I already know this. Ah you had support from your wife who you know like I don't know what all those conversations were like when you were like honey.

08:18.41
Jala
I'm going to throw my hat in and make a card game and and do this? Um, but like I know that that was definitely a joint effort. Your wife is very supportive. So um.

08:27.64
Dennis
Yeah, oh it's Furia games for a reason. So Jen um was a an editor. Ah for the game for sure and it was very helpful because she you know she's not in but particularly like the tactical card game or collectible car game world. Like that is that is a very specific language that um, you kind of know or you don't and I've I've played Hearthstone and magic and all that stuff so I was kind of in that world. Jen was amazing because I could take my rulebook tour or take my ideas to her and be like does that make any sense to someone that hasn't been doing this for 10 years You know.

09:00.52
Jala
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

09:03.61
Dennis
And she would give it to me straight so she was you know she would edit things and and and certainly she's also in the business World. So All the business planning Stuff. She was super helpful on um, her her response to me being like you know we had that conversation where I was like hey I want to see this all the way through I think I think I can do this. Um, she was all about it from the get go and the way that she put it was. She's like I always get to hear these cool ideas you have um and like I didn't realize I do this but I'd be like you know what would be a fun story is if like X Y Z happened or like it would be the cool setting for a campaign if this world were you know this way or.

09:39.93
Dennis
Um, you know and and just like you know as a sharing sharing your thoughts and emotions The kind of thing you do with ah with your spouse. Um, you know that these stories and and Concepts would always come up.

09:52.30
Dennis
And so what she told me when I said I wanted to do de warner is she's like I've I've always loved that. But I'm the only one that gets to benefit from that I'm just excited that everyone else gets to see this cool stuff for once? Um, and that's kind of the attitude she took for is at which you know you can't you can't put a price on that kind of ah backing.

10:08.66
Dennis
Ah, from your spouse when you want to do something like this So I'm I'm super grateful to her. She's been um, helpful on that like I said the business and editing and technical side and then super helpful on just the support side.

10:18.28
Jala
Yeah, absolutely and just from my brief time of having met her face to face. You know like I can I can vouch. She's awesome. So but yeah, so also where did the name deck of wonders come from in the first place.

10:38.47
Dennis
Yeah, um, it's funny I was really worried about the name deck of wonders at the start. It was the first thing that came to my mind as I was batting the concept around and we'll talk more about you know what? the game actually is in a second. Um. But I think you know I've heard of like the deck of many things before um and and you know that's both a thing in like d and d lore and then there's lots of like d and d supplements that are a deck of many things for this that and the other thing it's just like you know a way to spice up.

11:10.22
Dennis
And add random elements to your game. Um, and somehow my mind translated that into deck of wonders like I thought that's what it was called and ah then I was pleasantly surprised to see like oh no, that's actually it's the deck of many things and so I don't have to worry about going up against wizards of the coast for that because that's a losing battle.

11:29.30
Dennis
Um, and and deck of wonders wasn't really used and so it kind of evoked the idea that I wanted for the game. The idea that the the deck of cards that you were playing with was diagetic in the world of the game. Um, that this is the deck of wonders. This is a physical artifact from this magical world that I'm kind of making making up this game around. Um and you are playing with the deck of wonders. Um, and so that that kind of um is what I wanted to evoke and that's where the name came from.

11:56.67
Jala
And you know as you're sitting here telling me all of this I'm just sitting here shaking my head and grinning and just going this is the most denist stuff I heard this is just this is just you the name of it is you it like it's it's you know your head. It's your head Dennis your head is at the deck of wonders you have so many different.

12:16.64
Jala
Um, wonderful fun things in there and that's why you're in charge of multiplayer questions. So often you just turn and look and in you know, free word association come up with like 7 different things. Yeah, so.

12:27.78
Dennis
Exactly Yeah I like yeah, there's I like to think of myself as whimsical and clever and I definitely want the deck of wonders to to feel whimsical and clever. So yeah I think hopefully if I've done this successfully. There is a fair bit of me in the game.

12:42.70
Jala
Absolutely so we already kind of touched on it but who is few Furia games overall like who is in it. What do they do.

12:52.66
Dennis
Yeah I guess technically you would just say me and Jen right? where the fury is um, however Lauren Brown is the illustrator for the game. She is an incredible artist and I can't imagine the game without her. So.

13:08.38
Dennis
Um, she is very far from like on our payroll or anything. Um, but she does amazing work and she is um if not a part of Furia games she is. She is absolutely a central part of deck of wonders. Um, so yeah, that's that's kind of the team that worked on this game.

13:25.56
Dennis
Um, there was another amazing graphic designer Becky Frazier um who who did graphic design work for the rulebook. Um, and so I guess she's kind of a part of this as well. Um, but really really like in terms of who who touched the game who made the game.

13:43.71
Dennis
It's those 4 people. It's ah it's a 4 person team and and you know they you know I'm bouncing ideas off of everyone that will listen to me right? and I'm getting feedback from everyone who will listen. Um, everyone who will give it and and I know Lauren is the same way and and and all that. So.

14:00.20
Dennis
The number of people who are a part of deck of wonders are is is vast. There's so many people that have touched this game and I'm sure I'll I'll share stories about like sitting in the Starbucks across from gencon and demoing a prototype of deck of wonders. Um and a guy named Jack Johnson no relation to the the singer songwriter. Um. But like hanging out and giving me ideas and like those ideas are in the game like I can point to where like oh the card is formatted like this because he had this idea for like that would look better and and all that. So um, yeah, the the team that made it is is those 4 people the the group that influenced the game is is just countless really.

14:39.78
Jala
The card game of many people. So yeah.

14:44.37
Dennis
Ah, yes, it is I mean any anything that's made is that way right? like I If if there is anything that's made by like just a single out tour in the basement somewhere. It is rare and not not frequent at all. Um.

14:58.73
Dennis
I think I think far more often. The story behind any any of the games that you love is is a group of people that gel and and do something they think is cool which I I think everyone involved ah has has done very well on this.

15:10.28
Jala
Yeah, absolutely so I guess ah that is enough like preamble I want to hear your elevator pitch tell me tell me Delo listeners.

15:16.71
Dennis
Um, yeah, did have wonders okay investor. No um, but that's right, Yeah, no totally and I'm sure.

15:23.30
Jala
I am I am an investor I paid for the game I am getting one although I I missed the kickstarter but it was still available to purchase so I went ahead and bought it.

15:33.35
Dennis
Yeah, yeah I am I am I'm sure there is a a higher than average concentration of either backers or late pledgers listening to this. So Thank you every single person. Um, so deck of wonders is a solo legacy card game where fate herself has stacked the deck against you. Um, and you are trying to outplay fate who is think of her as like the goddess of this world. Um, using this powerful magical artifact. The deck of wonders that you have stolen from her. Um, yeah, So the card game captures the feel of.

16:09.46
Dennis
Um, tactical card games like harstone or magic the gathering but it is a solo format game meaning that you are you know, summoning minions and casting spells and fighting villains. Um, but instead of you versus another player. It's you versus the rules.

16:28.50
Dennis
Um, and that you know we touch on that before but that's that's really at the heart of the game. Um, and this story is at the heart of the game as well. You heard me say it's a legacy game. Um, and so that means as you play game over game. Um, new segments of the story are revealed and this whole adventure of you.

16:45.39
Dennis
Steal the deck of wonders and escaping from fate kind of plays out before your eyes and there are mechanical implications to that so you unlock new cards, new rules, etc. Um, as you play that just as you kind of figure out the game. 1 way, you're going to get a new set of cards and have to shake things up and try something new. Um, and I've I've tried to make it so that every every villain that you come up against with a deck of wonders has this unique flavor to it. Yeah, ah.

17:11.65
Jala
That is awesome. So you're going to have to tell me how do you do this? How how how does this work that that you are unlocking story bits and your cards are changing and what what.

17:21.92
Dennis
And yeah, yeah, well the the key hook mechanically of the game is that whereas in in harstone and magically you bring a deck and your opponent has a deck and you you each play your deck against the other in deck of wonders. Your cards and the villain's cards go into the same deck and both of you are drawing from the same deck of cards. So you might draw the villain's cards the villain might draw your cards. Um, and you know there's almost a deck building challenge to it right. Where every card that you put in you have to have a plan for if the villain draws it instead of you. Um, the cards themselves and I don't know if you can link to images or or what have you? um, have have two sides. So um, you know a tame side and a wild side. It's it's it's interesting. Um, you know.

18:12.20
Dennis
First impulse is to call it like the good side and the bad side. Um, but Lauren was adamant. She's like I don't I don't see this world that way I don't think it's straight up good and bad like you know everything and I've tried to write the story that you know everything is kind of has um, a little more depth to it and she's like I think what you're seeing is.

18:31.65
Dennis
Kind of the tamer side and the wild side. Um of of you know a given creature so when when a thing is drawn if you draw it on your turn use the top side and it's going to do 1 thing if the villain draws it on their turn. You're going to use the bottom side and that does another thing.

18:49.75
Dennis
Um, and so every every card every creature every spell in the game has this duality to it. Um, and that was really fun to play with because essentially what Lauren did was that means every card is a 2 panel comic essentially um and she did some really cool stuff playing with just um.

19:08.99
Dennis
You know the the way the same creature can be in 2 different attitudes or the starting and ending of something or or what have you playing across the two sides of the card. Um, so yeah, mechanically, you're you're drawing from a single deck of cards. Um, and you're Alternating. You know you play a turn then the villain plays a turn. Obviously you're making all the decisions on your turn when the villain draws. It's it's solitaire right? You versus the rules. There's a simple set of rules that kind of guide how the villain is going to behave. Um, but even those can change right? and and as I mentioned as the story goes on game over game. The villain might behave differently. You'll go up against different villains.

19:47.35
Dennis
Um, and and they will use different cards which is just going to create a very different experience. However, as you can kind of go back and forth. Um, and it's it's like harstone and magic where you are trying to kind of defeat the opponent but you kind of have to manage the board of creatures and spells etc to do so. But really that game plays out in about 15 minutes maybe even faster if you're doing well or excuse me once you're familiar with the game and then you you can shuffle up and go again or if you hear your kid waking up. You can put it away and and save it for next time.

20:20.91
Jala
Well, that's very very cool. So for people like me I am not versed in card games. Ah generally speaking I have played a few here and there when I found his. Um.

20:35.90
Jala
Every once in a while like not not in Houston I have not seen any in Houston but in other cities there are like those ah board game cafes where you can like go and have a board game and have like a coffee or whatever with it. Um, and I've played in other places that I've been visiting with friends um different card games and things like that. But what in your opinion is the thing that sets your card game apart especially because I'm not sure how common some of the elements are is it The combination of elements that you feel or something else entirely that makes your game so different.

21:08.39
Dennis
Um, yeah, well something I learned in doing this is that solo gaming is way bigger than I thought it was um I think the the solo board gaming group is like the biggest.

21:23.89
Dennis
Ah, Board game related group on a board game Geek Um, the the trick is though that most games are designed for multiplayer and then they add a solo variance whereas deck of wonders is one of a very small set of games that is designed exclusively with one player in mind.

21:43.74
Dennis
Now I then added a co-op variant so you can play at co-op just fine. Um, but the heart and soul of this game is that solitary experience. So I think that is while solo gaming is common games designed for solo gaming first and foremost are not um.

22:01.42
Dennis
And then the other thing I think is is that idea of the the duality of the cards. Um, you know there there are games that kind of have variance of that. Um, but I think the way that we've used it in the way that every single card has that duality to it is really special I'm I'm very proud of that for sure. Um.

22:19.70
Jala
Um, yeah I definitely haven't seen I haven't seen that come up in any of the games that I've been playing um card game wise. So yeah, yeah.

22:21.12
Dennis
Good.

22:27.65
Dennis
It ah it puts space at a premium man. That's that's been one of the challenges both both for card text and for the artwork is I need to I need to fit. Um, you know the the ideas that I want to design with. Into half the space because I need to have it. You know reflected on each side. Um, and then the other might be doing completely different things 1 side versus another and then Lauren has to do with the artwork which is already cramped in a card game in half the space because the artwork for the cards like I said is this 2 wo-panel comic or it's almost like.

23:00.12
Dennis
You know, ah a twisted mirror that you're looking at um and and she had to do that in half the space so that was definitely a challenge. Um, but I think the result was really really cool.

23:09.16
Jala
Did you ever find that there were particular cards that were just like they were stumping you and you had to go back to it and maybe have like multiple versions that you go through before you get to it.

23:21.80
Dennis
Oh yeah, absolutely um, the one that comes immediately to mind is a card called the no mis negotiator. Um, so gnomes. Are you know 1 of the magical creatures in this world and the idea for this card was um that ah. You know it. It would kind of I almost thought of it as like the sleazy lawyer that the the feel I wanted for it is like oh yeah I use this guy and he's going to like get 1 of my bigger minions out of trouble essentially ah and and so you know I was messing around with that and.

23:58.89
Dennis
The thing was that was just way too powerful for the player. Um, that you you know you would play this and it's like I almost had to make the either make the villain side so ridiculously overpowered that it was like well okay then you know the villain just can't draw it or you lose.

24:16.82
Dennis
Or I had to keep on pairing back the power of the player side and and I really like this effect of like this this kind of like um, drawing attention off of the the person. Um, Ah yeah, off of someone or getting them out of trouble. Um, but I kept on reducing the stats Of. Ah, the player side of the card of you know like you know what? its presence on board would be until it was like next to nothing it was like you know. So First it was like a 2 2 So So two strength to health again terminology that people who play those card games will recognize.

24:52.37
Dennis
And then it was like a one two and then it was a one one and then it was a one one that can't attack and and finally I was just like you know what? I think I think this is actually just a spell on the player side. There's no minion attached to it at all. Um, and that finally got things to click and that gave me the idea.

25:11.94
Dennis
Um, for oh you know because of this 2 wo-sided thing the the card doesn't even need to be the same type of card. It can be a minion on one side and a spell on the other um and that was a whole design space that I then got to explore and in there other.

25:26.74
Dennis
Minions that are like that because of of that kind of rebalancing act that happened.

25:31.17
Jala
That's that's ah, fun to hear because it's like I can just imagine your brain breaking in real time and then like you getting really really excited and then just coming up to whoever will listen to you and go the no mission negotiator. Just.

25:42.49
Dennis
Yeah, and that's by the way that yeah, the the dumb things you can do when you make the decisions. It's the no mission negotiator but negotiator is spelled g n e j you know and and so on so it's got the GN just like with no.

25:59.50
Dennis
Um, and like when I when I had the idea for the card that made me giggle and I just kept it I Never I never changed away from it. Um, and so it's just this dumb little misspelling that's in there that makes me happy. Yeah, no, that's about right? Yeah I'd agree with that. But.

26:09.19
Jala
Um, it's It's a dad joke for a dad I mean it works. Yeah, So yeah, definitely the thing that. When I was just looking at you know your kickstarter thinking back to all the different times that you've um, talked about it on the level and all of that It just struck me that your game The deck of wonders is. Just incredibly flexible. Ah for space reasons for time constraints for play style and all of that. So um, ah my initial question was going to be like did you have accessibility in mind. But of course you did because you already said you led with.

26:52.69
Jala
That's why I made this card game is I wanted to have something accessible that is a game that could be played and um, it sounds really like it evolves with you as you continue to play.

27:04.90
Dennis
Yeah, and I um I actually like as I was designing and you know it was just in community with other designers um got a ton of great feedback on how to make things more accessible. So ah, 1 thing was just for colorblind players.

27:18.23
Dennis
Um, and and realizing I was using color to denote what set cards belonged to um and and realized like oh this isn't really distinguishable if if you're colorblind and so we went back through and just added added a certain number of dots into the logo.

27:35.18
Dennis
Um, so that even if even if um, you couldn't see color. You could see the number of dots and that would denote correctly where the card would go so colorblind was something that was considered um one of the cards. Um, the necromancer is is a person that's in a wheelchair and I just like.

27:54.41
Dennis
Was always that way in my head and and Lauren did a great job illustrating it. But you know neither of us are in a wheelchair and and I just felt like it. It should be shared with someone who who was um and so we had kind of a a um oh it's I'm blanking other but it's like ah a um content reader or a. Not empathy reader um, it might it might actually literally be an accessibility reader but someone someone who was in a wheelchair that that took a look at the art and actually had some really insightful comments. Um about ah the art and they were like this is awesome consider like this that and the other thing. So 1 thing you'll see is like.

28:32.97
Dennis
The necromancer is holding a staff um and above her like her. Her realtor is like almost this high-backed kind of throne. Um, it looks like it's a really cool image. But there's 2 hooks on it. Um, and that's because ah the the person said like.

28:49.55
Dennis
Yeah, she might she might like have some kind of solution on the back of the chair to store her um her staff in and so like we never would have gotten there unless we shared it with ah with an accessibility reader I'm very happy we did that because it made one of the special things that Lauren has done is there's just a thousand little easter eggs in every.

29:07.98
Dennis
Every piece of art just little touches like that and so that ah that experience made the necromancer that much more rich and interesting.

29:16.54
Jala
Yeah, definitely and actually it's it's interesting that you mentioned that because the next episode that comes out after this is one that's about disability on my show and um so we we will be talking about disability and accessibility and ableism and things like that. So it's really good to hear.

29:33.38
Jala
That um you know you did have accessibility in mind and you were considering that um and definitely there's the whole concept of nothing about us without us. You know, having you know those disabled voices actually pitching in their own ¢2 about this thing this representation. So definitely.

29:53.11
Jala
Definitely. So um I will say when I was because I I do my homework before I do all of my episodes of any type and so I was googling around and I was like holy smokes. There's so many like play tests and Youtube videos and all different kinds of stuff like how is. That felt for you as these little play tests and like review videos and things have just like been popping up because I'm just like I look and I'm like oh my there's a lot of these.

30:22.91
Dennis
Yeah I mean so I'm like you job I'm a very social person right? Um, and I knew when I was getting towards a kickstarter that like I wasn't going to be able to just go with like big name influencers like I'm not going to be able to get a rada runs through or a um. Ah, dice tower or any of that stuff like I wasn't on that kind of budget I didn't have that kind of clout, especially as like this first time designer out of nowhere. Um, and so my approach was just like I'm going to go wide I want I want to share the game with anyone who's interested in talking to me and there were some really cool.

30:55.43
Dennis
Um, Facebook groups and online communities of content creators and people who play games and did game videos for for fun and I just posted those and so like I've I've got a game I'm excited about this is the type of game if that is in your wheelhouse. let's let's talk let's do an interview. Let's you know what have you.

31:14.89
Dennis
Um, and and people were super responsive and super into it and I was it's you know you can tell I love talking about it and and just everyone everyone who wanted to to talk I said yes to and and that experience was great because it's just.

31:33.97
Dennis
You know it. It wasn't a transaction. It didn't feel transactional. It felt relational. Um, and I think I think people sparked to that and that's why that's why so many people put out videos or um, you know did live plays of it on Twitch or or wrote articles like um.

31:51.92
Dennis
Board Gaming already is very very community oriented and I feel like I I Just kind of stumbled ass backwards into like the the group of people in that community that were doing really cool things just on a little bit of a smaller scale. But um. Good Lord The the sum was greater or the the whole was eat was greater than the sum of the parts I Think that's how that phrase goes that was certainly the case.

32:19.75
Jala
Ah, yeah, yeah for sure and you know, Ah, it's just it's always in my opinion just it shows so much when you have somebody who is. Well put together like you know you have a history in marketing and things like that. So and also a history in podcasting so you know you have a history of ah, projecting yourself out there in the world and having like a presence and in um.

32:45.27
Jala
Being concise and clear with your words and your speech and you know conveying your excitement but that excitement especially is the thing that regardless of the product if the.

32:56.79
Jala
Like is awesome. That is also great, but but like the excitement of the person is a lot of what will make or break that connection to listeners or you know anyone else. So you know like that is so important and so you having those kind of um.

33:12.74
Jala
Aspects in your background are ready in your arsenal to go out there and do this self-promotion was really you know ah benefit for you.

33:19.76
Dennis
Um, yeah yeah I had a mentor in the business world. Um that her her big thing was passion alone is worth 10 percentage points.

33:32.45
Dennis
And she like she she's just like at the team if the team is passionate about something that will make it 10% bad her just off the bat and that that wasn't just like talk. She would literally like this is a person who's on the hook for doing like you know financial projections and she would literally fact their that in.

33:48.93
Dennis
To her production models and it was effective. So yeah I'm I'm a big believer in just you know if you're if you're passionate about your thing and you are relational. Um that it's It's contagious and certainly people jumped right on board and and were amazing advocates for the game.

34:02.85
Jala
Yeah, for sure and I know that there have been just so many folks especially am in duck feed that I've seen that are just but all over it anytime you're like oh I'm doing a deck of wonrous things. There's like oh a group of them that are just like I am ready you know I am here.

34:13.70
Dennis
Um, yes, yes oh the duck I mean the duck feet community is just amazing. Yeah.

34:26.71
Dennis
You guys you guys who are listening because I know there's there's there's crossover like you guys are awesome. Thank you so much.

34:29.90
Jala
Yeah, for sure so tell us more about the wonderful storied history of the various evolutions in play testing like what was the what I want to know what was like your earliest iteration of this game like.

34:46.92
Jala
And how is it different than what it is now like obviously it got more complex but what else like what's the biggest difference. Do you think.

34:53.39
Dennis
Yeah, so I mentioned my background. Yeah I've got consulting in my history and like iterative development is was my thing right? So um, my first version of the game was incredibly rough. Um, we. We did a family vacation to Michigan and had like rented out a house on the lake and I I had the idea like a week before we went and literally I brought a deck of cards. Um, and then wrote an excel dock and was like okay the ace of diamonds is this.

35:29.25
Dennis
The queen of hearts is this and had a reference stock and so the the first version of the game was literally just a deck of regular playing cards. But every time I would turn a card a card over I would look over at my reference sheet to remember what it was and then play the game that way. Um, and eventually it got to the point where was all memorized and I kind of ah you know was able to go faster. Um, but that that was the first version hyper hyper rough. Um and or no, no. Ah yeah, it was I know in Aurora in aurora's deck. It was sleep.

35:55.24
Jala
What was 10 of spades. Okay I would quiz time quiz time. Ok anyway. Ok, awesome you you you still remember ok continue.

36:06.36
Dennis
Ah, the cards sleep. That's that's the first one they came to mind but um, and yeah and you know what was funny is then I kept that excel sheet and literally the same document from the first day I was working on the game every game I played every play test I did I would record the results. And then I would just jot down any thoughts or notes about what the you know what happened?? Um, and so like yeah, um, one of the first things that was broken was like the the forest troll was way way too powerful. Um for the villain.

36:40.59
Dennis
Um, and so I had to I had to tweak that back in just every every game I would like change something small play it a couple times and then write notes about what I thought and then then you make another change and it was It was very very iterative like that. Um, so that was the very first version. Um and very quickly I felt like I was on to something. Like I said I had that conversation of like okay I want to I want to see this all the way through um and that was that was in July 2019 I guess um and I was like I want to try to get something to gencon. Um, now of course that's ludicrous like all the booths for gencon were long sold out.

37:17.38
Dennis
Um, and I I didn't have any art and you know yeah I'm not going to ask someone like hey play this play this game with this reference sheet right? Like that's that's not going to go well. Um and so in powerpoint I designed like placeholder versions of the cards that at least had the 2 sided feature to them.

37:35.50
Dennis
Um, but still didn't have any art but ah and had the text on them and I printed off I think I printed off 20 of them something like that at a business card printer. Um and I totally lucked out because the business card printer I chose just because they were close to my workplace. Um.

37:53.46
Dennis
But the guy when I started describing what I wanted to do was like oh I prototype my card games all the time. yeah yeah I know exactly what you want and this guy was like a game decider who just happened to work at this establishment and so he was he was phenomenal helped me out. Um, and and I got these printed and and went to gencon with this this. Ah, case of 20 copies of this game. Um, that had no art and was just the first villain it wasn't even the full game it was it was just culled the spoiled prince. Maybe we'll talk about him more later. Um, and since I couldn't go to gencon or you know I wasn't gonna. Try to shell out for a last minuteute booth at gencon um I just picked you know the Starbucks that was across the street and it's it's like attached to the hotel that everyone stays in and I went in I just asked the manager I was like hey do you mind like I've got a game that I'm play testing is okay if I just post up at 1 of your tables for the day like I'll be buying drinks ill I'll buy drinks for sure and. Yeah I won't be a fudy dadddy but is that cool and they're like yeah, totally do it? Um, yeah, you think you're special. Don't you Um, no, you're not you you can do it? Um, anyway, it wound up being perfect because everyone came over to it. Yes.

38:54.53
Jala
They're like we are used to this. We are right next to gencon. Ah yeah.

39:04.19
Jala
Everybody was in the Starbucks everybody's waiting in the long line right? so.

39:09.46
Dennis
And the orders were taking like waiting 20 minutes for their drink. Um, and in what better way to kill time than with this cool little card game that only takes 15 minutes to play. Ah so that that worked out that was that was the second version and and it only it got more more developed from there.

39:19.21
Jala
Right.

39:25.41
Jala
So I do have to ask when did you decide to do the dual aspect of those cards.

39:34.89
Dennis
That that was literally The first idea I had for the game before I had the name before I had anything um I remember it? Vividly um I I Forget if I was playing something that pushed me in that direction like I I don't remember what I was playing at the time.

39:51.16
Dennis
But I woke up from a dream where I was playing a card game in the card was was dual sided like is in the game and on one side it was a dragon and then on the other side. It was the fire that the dragon like the dragon's breath. Um and like so literally that.

40:09.21
Dennis
That was the very first seed of the game and the duality of the cards was was in it from the start.

40:16.10
Jala
That's pretty neat because when you say you know the card has 2 different sides to it. It's you know, reversible depending upon which side is up is you know this thing that reminds me a lot of taro because to row is you know you can read it reversed or you can read it right side up so that is.

40:31.29
Jala
Although it has a single image. It doesn't have multiple images on the same thing it just kind of has like a you know, um a reversed meaning but you know not not quite exactly apples to apples but it made me think about that.

40:45.20
Dennis
Yeah I had a lot of people make that connection. Um, and it's not something I necessarily would have done myself. Um, but it's super cool and I actually then started learning about that. You know as as ah as a result. Um and I had several people say like you need to do this on tarot size cards. Um, or like make make all this art a tarot Deck. Um, which is which is a cool idea. But then you know the the tero deck has has very specific suits and I don't know what exactly the right terminology is but you know, um, the the characters in that.

41:21.21
Dennis
Are kind of set and thank you the Arcana thank you? Thank you.

41:21.25
Jala
Yeah, well because yeah, because like the the major Arcana it's basically the fool to the yeah, the the major Arcana are um the fool to the world and it is basically the the major arcnna themselves the the ones that have like the hermit and you know the empress and things like that.

41:39.23
Jala
Those cards are more or less the Hero's journey. So like they they reflect the Hero's journey of attainment from you know, just setting out not knowing anything being ignorant naive and then eventually attaining. You know all of the goals and things. So.

41:45.41
Dennis
Um, very cool.

41:58.38
Jala
And you know like all the cards have their different meanings and like you say the suits are so specific 1 one of my personal um complaints about things that are um, made into tarot deck is that they don't actually have any connection to the meaning of the cards when they're made into tarodex so I actually.

42:16.35
Jala
I'm glad that you recognize that it is a very different thing so you have made me happy Dennis.

42:20.57
Dennis
Yeah, well it was yeah it was it was ah it was a fork in the road of like okay I either need to like bend all this art to fit that or I just need to acknowledge that this is its own thing and I think for me it was 100% like um I'm not going to try to make this a tarot deck.

42:38.45
Dennis
Um, but it is like it's certainly a ah connection I can't say it was an inspiration. Um, but as as it like came over my radar I was like oh yeah, okay this is really neat. Um, so yeah, totally.

42:48.38
Jala
Yeah, so also speaking about inspiration. So I know that before you were doing and while you were starting working on your own card game. You had been playing lots and lots of hearthstone but like what what exactly were your influences when you were making this game.

43:06.51
Dennis
Yeah, so so any of the games that I could play solo were absolutely inspirations. Um, and for me that was actually the Xcom board game.

43:15.16
Jala
I was going to say as he's going to say x come. He's going to say if you didn't say xcom is the first thing out of your mouth Dennis I was going to call you a liar.

43:24.29
Dennis
Ah, yeah, um, and even Xcom generally was an inspiration in a weird way I I gravitate towards games that feel unfair at first blush if that makes any sense like when you play Xcom you know. Your first squad wipe. You're like that was out of nowhere I was completely underpowered like the enemy was way too strong I you know I was blindsided. That's not fair and it just it just feels like the odds are so stacked against you that it's insurmountable and then as you get more familiar with the game. You start to realize like oh wait this this chaos does have some rhythm to it or like oh like I understand how these systems work now and as you master the game it feels more and more attainable. Um I'm again, probably a sizable portion of your audience is going. Oh just like dark souls like yeah.

44:19.30
Jala
Um, he yeah yeah, just like dark souls and that sounds like Dennis like he's just sparkling whenever students like that.

44:19.14
Dennis
Like yeah, probably ah um, right right? right? Um, so so it is really inspired by anything that has that feeling at first blush of like being unfair or or too difficult. And I love the feeling of turning the tide of of getting yourself to that tipping point where it's like I've mastered the chaos I understand these systems well enough that now I can run the show I can start calling the shots and like um, that's just a great feeling. Um, and so there's a ton of games that create that xcom is one of them. Um, and I really want deck of wonders to feel that way that fate has stacked the deck against you fate is against you like literally can't get any worse. Um, this all-powerful being has it out for you. How do you stay 1 step ahead of fate as you play. Um, there are some games that I would be remiss if I didn't um you know name check specifically um, it's a little cliche but like a solitaire game. You know it's solitaire is just I think I was worried like who's going to play a solo game until it. It was probably Jen pointed out like I mean people play solitaire for thousands and thousands of hands and never get bored of it and that's just just a simple game. Um, so that you know it was like okay that gave me maybe not an inspiration but it gave me the confidence to be like no this is a thing that people will do. Um, there's also a game that's legendary called Friday um, that is another you know solo specific card game.

45:51.43
Dennis
Um, that is is really cool and has some some similarity so that was an inspiration as well.

45:56.98
Jala
Gotcha that is neat So um, did you like So So especially with you in particular like you like games that have um, you know that that deck stacked against you feel but like specifically About. Strategy not necessarily like a twitchy kind of thing. So like you like the strats you'd like all of that stuff and you like that to be the challenge where you do have to get into the weeds and really know know your units know all of your your you know what? you're coming up against and all of that and building that.

46:30.82
Dennis
Um, count cards. Yes.

46:35.63
Jala
So yeah, so how was the journey of streamlining the game I know you talked a little bit about like the Gnomish Gnegotiator I was like "Gno--".

46:47.93
Dennis
Gnegotiator? Yeah, ah yeah, ah yeah, that's all good. Oh no.

46:50.94
Jala
No, and I was just picturing. No and I'm like okay I I forgot the word now because I'm just hung up on the Gn thing. Ah yeah I'm face palming you made me face palm without even knowing what what the card looks like anyway is the dad jokes. Okay.

47:06.85
Jala
So anyway, um, how did that streamlining um like with the flow and all of that. How did that um develop I know you were saying that you were writing your notes but like um, how how like increment. Okay, you were talking about changing the card Some how about the actual like mechanics of the just.

47:25.95
Jala
How you deal everything and and you know how how you're approaching the cards like is that any different or was it just like balancing The cards themselves did you already have the mechanics already pretty much figured out.

47:39.74
Dennis
No I messed up I messed around less once you're into the game. Um, but at the beginning of the game like how big should your harding starting hand be um and and like who should go first you were the villain like I played around with that a lot so like how to start the game was ah. Big thing. Um that I messed around with I had um a very intricate system for mulliganing. Um that just was out of hand at first it gave the player a lot of a lot of um agency but it was just so heavy and hard to explain that it was like I'm not ahead.

48:16.38
Dennis
The first thing that you're asking the player to do is just mind numbing. So I'm not you know I need to cut that out and I streamlined that and I think in general that's probably the story of streamlining is just being ruthless with what I said no to in favor of just a very focused first effort.

48:35.90
Dennis
Um, so the the design of the game is that the you know this story kind of plays out across three villains. Um to tell a complete story and ah you know when you finish the game mechanically. There's a ton you can still do like it's it's that solitaire feel where you can just shuffle up and play. Um.

48:54.85
Dennis
But it's a very discreet kind of story that I wanted to tell. Um and I have ideas for expansions for the game and and where it's going to go next and those are all very exciting but I was absolutely ruthless in what needed to go into. You know what comes next versus what was going to be in this first effort I was like I need to nail the first you know iteration of this game or not in the first iteration. But the first addition I guess of this game the original ah not an expansion ah to even earn the the you know chance to do expansion stuff. So.

49:29.85
Dennis
Um, every every villain kind of has 1 gimmick that I centered everything around 1 kind of unique thing and I didn't try to have like 5 different unique things that you could do with the deck. It was like okay no, this is the 1 interesting thing and I'll play with that in a couple different ways. But I'm not you know I'm not going to try to shoehorn too much in so that that was the big thing with streamlining was was just saying no to a lot of stuff not because I didn't like it and not because it was wasn't a good idea. Um, but just because I wanted to be very focused with what.

50:05.48
Jala
For sure So when did you decide to kickstart the game was that like an immediate like okay in order to do this I'm going to have to crowdfund.

50:05.52
Dennis
Came out on this first effort.

50:19.32
Dennis
Yeah, especially because of the the format of the game vis-a-vis art. Um a ah collectible card game is probably the least efficient game you can make in terms terms of art because.

50:34.28
Dennis
Every card has a very intricate unique piece of art on it. Um, and and that requires if you know if you're going to get someone good like Laura and brown. Um, that requires an investment and I knew I couldn't just you know throw money at that for fundsies. So. I knew fairly early on I was going to kickstart and then also I wanted to be able when I went to gencon to point people somewhere um and a kickstarter coming soon page just felt like the right level of detail to point them towards.

51:08.75
Dennis
That was yeah Kickstarter Kickstarter was was kind of the intent very early on.

51:11.10
Jala
So when you were in that Starbucks sitting there with those folks in the line. Did you already have the kickstarter page up for that or was that like a later time that you came back.

51:22.59
Dennis
No I did I one of the first things I did and for anyone curious I encourage you just go in and start poking around with the creator side of kickstarter. Um, you know i. Really, you know you need to put in put in your banking information and verify that you're a real person. Um, but then to create a coming soon. Page. You really don't need to have a ton of information. Um you you really just need to have a splash image and like a sentence or 2 of text and that. That allows you to to put up a coming soon page for the project and so from very ah, early on that's where I pointed people and I think that was that was hugely to my benefit. Um I really focused on getting people to follow that because when the project launched.

52:08.40
Dennis
Um, it wasn't me sending them an email. It was kickstarter sending them an email saying hey go check out this thing.

52:12.30
Jala
Right? right? because? um there is a difference when it's just like oh it's the kickstarter telling you that there's a kickstarter that you would. You'd been interested in versus oh it's that guy from that place. You know, whatever.

52:26.12
Jala
You know like there there is like for for some people and there's definitely like that kind of ah a feeling where it's like oh no like that's that's not something that I am you know like it. It kind of reminds them. Um, when it comes from the platform itself I guess is what I'm trying to say that of their level of interest that they are going to.

52:43.93
Jala
Ah, Kickstarter page and it's not you know, just the email from the creator of the product they're looking at so.

52:48.23
Dennis
Yeah, and and Kickstarter has some some fairly good analytics in terms of like where do pledges come from and where you know who clicked on what and and by far the the best source of people finding the game especially early on.

53:04.79
Dennis
Was from that launch announcement from kickstarter.

53:09.10
Jala
Um, yeah, so it's speaking about that kind of stuff like it seems that when you went into this you already had researched quite a bit about kickstarter and I know that. Um, Gary and Cole from duckfeed had their kickstarter on there once upon a time and I don't know if that if coal was one of your reference folks or if you had some other reference or if you just independently researched but it looks like you did a lot of um.

53:37.15
Jala
Backend checking out before you decided you were going to go ahead and go with it.

53:41.72
Dennis
A board game is kickstarter in particular is just such its own thing. Um that I kind of I took a ton of inspiration just from people who had already kickstartered so did a ton of reading um and and you know yeah. There's there's so much information in articles from people who have successfully kickstarted out there on what to do? What not to do? Um 1 thing that I think was super helpful for me was one of those articles gave the advice that you should go in and just. Find a ton of projects that seem kind of in the same vein as yours. Um, and and back them for a dollar and and back back like 15 to 20 different projects for a dollar. Um, and so I went to kickstarter in any solo. Um.

54:33.35
Dennis
You know, oriented game that I could find I backed for a dollar and I'm I'm looking at the list right now for 8 9 10 and 12 Yeah, so about about 20 of them actually actually yeah, probably closer to 30 Um I just backed and um.

54:52.12
Dennis
Then got updates from them and could browse their pages and learn about them and and that was such great inspiration. You know most of them succeeded some of them failed. Um, but it was all very informational or inspirational and and give me a ton to work with on my own.

55:11.48
Dennis
Ah, so so I would recommend that to anyone. The other reason to do that is because people who are on Kickstarter want to know that you're one of them. Um to kind of put it in in one one way and so.

55:26.89
Dennis
They want to be able to click on your profile and see that you've backed a ton of different projects. Ah and that looks way better than a first time creator who has never backed anything.

55:35.76
Jala
Correct correct because I know that there have been times too that I have been somebody perusing a kickstarter page and I'm interested in knowing that information and I will click on the.

55:50.18
Jala
Person who's made the kickstarter's profile to see what they've done and are they actually somebody who kickstarts stuff or are they just you know popping up for this 1 thing because um, there is a you know, definitely like ah that feeling of oh well, you know you're kind of fly by night if you're just popping up and this is the first thing on there, you know so.

56:08.87
Jala
So for sure. But um, so yeah, did you get your inspiration for your different tiers and things like that from some of these other pages or were yours kind of more new unique.

56:21.50
Dennis
Yeah, um, the the idea for retailer tier definitely came from looking at other campaigns and then also like for whatever reason board games community is very much on Facebook so there was like ah a Facebook group. Of retailers who backed kickstarters just just to like give advice and talk with each other. Um, and so I got I got input from them. Um, and ah so that that very much informed. You know what I should do and and how I should price that and all that stuff. Um, and then.

56:56.41
Dennis
Let's see what else the the faded form tier was and so that that's a version of the game that was so the normal game is $35 this was a $350 version of the game and and basically where that came from was um.

57:13.12
Dennis
Some other kickstarters did this and then also some of those blocks blogs I read said like you know people on Kickstarter want to support your game right? If they're excited about your idea. Um, give them an excuse to like really invest in the game rather than just you know getting one of the product right.

57:32.00
Dennis
Um, and so that was that was like okay if someone wants to you know? Basically you know make an investment How do I make them feel really special and do something really kind for them. Um, and and and that's where that tear came out of um beyond that the advice I saw mostly was just like. Especially as a first time creator don't go crazy putting out a ton of different tiers. Um, and well yeah, we'll just we'll just go into it. Don't make anyone feel like they're not getting the full version of your game if that makes sense. So.

58:08.47
Dennis
The base tier that you can contribute at should be the full game and then the upper level tier should be like cool extras on top. You should never make someone feel like they got to be ah by the premium deluxe version to get a playable for full version of your game.

58:24.60
Jala
Yeah, and that is definitely something that I see even on like comic kickstarters and things where it's like you know there's There's some that'll have okay the the base level is like a digital version. Okay, cool. But then um, there are.

58:39.80
Jala
Other you know tears. But then it's like I'm not 100% sure what I'm getting because this says like this thing number 2 But then wait a minute so where was that like what you I now I don't even know what I'm getting anymore like you know, where's the one that has all the stuff like you know, like just the one that I won when I saw this and I said this looks cool.

58:57.18
Jala
What's that one? yeah.

58:57.34
Dennis
Yeah, or or a lot of a lot of new creators would say like oh well, you know, only people who back in the first forty eight hours will get this version of the game and then everyone else gets ah a lesser version. Um, and there's no faster way to turn people off right? because.

59:14.69
Dennis
Most of the time it's not someone's fault that they didn't find your campaign in the first forty eight hours so why should they be gated out of what they want you know? Um, so yeah, keeping keeping it simple have have a really nice tier for for someone not because you're going to you know, give them something that.

59:32.42
Dennis
Is hugely expensive and complicated for you to make but you can give them something really nice that rewards someone who wants to make an investment. Um I think those are the 2 things that really really carried the idea of my tier system.

59:43.82
Jala
So tell us more about the faded form edition tell me why this is the super fancy at like deluxeman.

59:52.45
Dennis
Yeah, um, mostly it comes down to unique art. So there are special alternate versions of some of the cards that you can only get through the faded form edition. Um.

01:00:06.73
Dennis
1 of the special pieces of art is actually the box. So it's in a unique box. Um, that has kind of an alternate color scheme. Um and those I actually had to make those as a special order from the factory and they shipped those to me early. So I have those um and we'll be kind of hand packing them.

01:00:24.80
Dennis
Ah, when the full stuff comes out So I'll yeah I'll put a special.. Thank you note and all that ah to the people who did it? Um, but yeah, so there's there's you know the special version of the box and then special versions of the art. Um, and and by way of example, the one I Love the most is the Forest Troll. Kind of the the top side of it is kind of a summary look and then the bottom side of it is kind of a fall look and so the alternate art it was like oh well we have to do a spring in a winter version of the forest troll and that's that's like special to the faded form edition. So It's all it's all stuff like that.

01:01:01.25
Dennis
Um, the faded form additionion also comes with um every single one of the add-ons that you get for the game so that's an art print um a playmat a dial health tracker. Um, if you don't want to use the card health trackers. Um, and what's the 1 thing there's there's something else there.

01:01:20.29
Dennis
Oh card sleeves extra card sleeves for the game. So yeah, it's ah that's that's kind of the deluxe special edition of the game.

01:01:27.68
Jala
Very neat. So what did that promotional push look like for you when you first started doing the kickstarter and while the campaign was running like how how did the funding track. Ah for you and like how how did you like promo it at that time.

01:01:46.31
Dennis
Yeah I mean the push was very much a year leading up so I um I basically from when I demoed it at gencon in that weird prototype form to when I launched was a year and I very intentionally. Um. Promoted you know both just with like being in forums and on on social media and everything. Um, but then also some paid promotion um to get people interested in the game to get them either on the Facebook page for the game or in my email list. Or like I said most importantly, signing up for the coming soon page on kickstarter those are like the 3 things that I targeted. Um and I think I probably during so during the campaign I spent I think.

01:02:38.60
Dennis
About $2000 on on promotion and that was divvied up a lot of Facebook advertising because this was before all social media became a hellhole um that I'm I'm very wary about doing it again. So this is not necessarily my recommendation to people that are looking at a kickstarter now. But at the time.

01:02:57.82
Dennis
Facebook was the right advertising platform for me so I did a lot of advertising on that. Um I did a lot of um stuff with influencers like I said mostly smaller influencers. But um, you know some of that there like giving them copies of the game and all that stuff. Um, was part of my advertising budget. Um, and then there were some smaller 1 ne-offs things as well. But that was that was the promotion but my focus was on on having people knowing this was going to launch and being excited for it and I think ah when I launched I had almost a thousand people.

01:03:33.24
Dennis
Having liked the coming soon page. Yeah and I I don't know if that was a magic number or anything but like that that made me feel good that there was a strong group of people that was going to come early on. Um and so you know during the campaign I did that for Facebook promotion as well I did some on Twitter I did.

01:03:35.19
Jala
Awesome.

01:03:50.89
Dennis
Ah, Twitter Twitter did not work well for me and I certainly wouldn't recommend using it now. It was bad then it's even worse now. Um, ah but I you know the the funding then kind of looked like an s curve. So.

01:04:06.97
Dennis
Ah, it's a third of your funding will come in your first forty eight hours um a third of your funding will come in the last forty eight hours and then the middle I mean whether whether the middle is two weeks or four weeks you'll get about of your a third of your funding in the middle.

01:04:23.90
Dennis
So for you know for anyone who's looking to judge once they've launched a campaign where they're at if you're if you're at about a third of your goal or where you hope to be in in 48 hours you'll probably hit your goal by the end of the campaign is is the rule of thumb. Um and and my my campaign I fundraised.

01:04:42.33
Dennis
Way over what I was expecting but the s curve if you divided it into thirds like I described first 48 last 48 and then everything in the middle. It was about a third a third and a third

01:04:54.60
Jala
So when you were trying to make like your stretch goals and stuff did you already have those prepared or were you like oh snap now I got to make more tears more more stretch like what what can I do stretch goals that are realistic because of course even though you are um, crowdfunding more.

01:05:10.89
Jala
You have to make anything that you offer on on there as something that you can fulfill. Yeah, so.

01:05:17.67
Dennis
Yes, um, and that I had great advice on that. So this is you know, not my ideas coming through but stuff that smarter people taught me and it worked very well for me. Um, is you you want. You can get yourself in trouble very quickly by promising things in in stretch goals that you have not vetted out. Um, exactly like you're describing like that stuff is always going to be more expensive and harder to make than you think Um, and so everything that was possibly going to be a stretch goal um with with 1 exception.

01:05:50.20
Dennis
I had already vetted out and gotten a price for before I launched that said I did not actually show all the stretch goals upfront I only showed like the first 3 um and the reason you do that is because you want to see how fast your campaign tracks. Um.

01:06:08.91
Dennis
Towards your goal because you know what you think might be a good stepping out of incentives over the course of your campaign if you fund in a day and then you know fund 1000% in a day now you've given away all your stretch goals and you need to start coming up with new stuff because you you know.

01:06:28.43
Dennis
How high is up. Um, and so you kind of reveal the first few watch how fast you hit those and then when you're still you know before you hit your last one you reveal the next three and the next three and I very much did that the 1 exception that I mentioned was the dial health tracker.

01:06:44.33
Dennis
Um, and that was one where a bunch of people backers. Um during the campaign said hey you know I see how you're using cards to track health that's fine I think it would be really cool if you had like ah a dial like gloom havenven has everyone mentioned Gloomhaven um a dial for tracking health. Can you do that.

01:07:03.75
Dennis
And so I very quickly went to the manufacturer said this is what I want I want it to be the size of a card and fit in ah in a tuck box. Ah can you do that? They gave me a quote and then but I only revealed it once I had that quote but that was not planned in advance. So um, that that dial health Tracker is a a backer suggestion.

01:07:23.55
Dennis
Um, which is really cool I also did it as an add-on rather than just as a um I give this to everyone because you know there was a cost associated with it. Um, but ah yeah, that that was very popular at the end of the day.

01:07:35.70
Jala
Oh yeah I know for sure that this once once 1 person says it they are speaking for the silent multitude that is agreeing with them and going oh man I wish they had that but didn't send you an email. You know so.

01:07:48.23
Dennis
Um, yes, um and I have to say like even the people that were making suggestions or even that had questions or challenged me on stuff. Everybody was so cool like the I don't know how it happened because there's. I Mean there's kickstarter communities or games that kickstart that people are just vicious too. Um, but everyone all the backers were so Friendly. So helpful. Um and had such good ideas right? like it was just I feel really really lucky because I know that's not guaranteed.

01:08:17.43
Jala
Yeah, yeah, so I know that you mentioned Lauren before but how did you come across your artist in the first place and did you like when did you find her in this whole process and.

01:08:31.88
Jala
Ah, how how did that look like how did you connect and all of that.

01:08:37.80
Dennis
Yeah, so this is this goes back to that gencon. Um I kind of wandered in after I had finished my my time demoing. Um and was just wondering around artist Allie. So I think most most cons um you know board game. Cons. Have like an artist area and everyone does this really cool. Um, you know art sometimes board game themes sometimes just fantasy themed. What have you Um, and I you know I didn't have any idea for what I wanted this game to look like. And I really wasn't even that good at explaining it at that point like what the game was much less what I wanted it to look like um and and so I was just kind of wondering around booth to booth and it had to be the weirdest conversations for these artists because I would be like yeah.

01:09:22.89
Dennis
I'm designing a game and it's it's kind of like this but kind of not and I could maybe look like this but maybe not do you do you know what? I'm talking about and you know I mean if someone came up and said that to you probably just don't like fuck off like who are you talking about.

01:09:39.32
Jala
I I would just be like in my head My eyes would be rolling into the back. You know as an artist myself. Ah you know, having somebody come with like this really big kind of thing you like um I yeah.

01:09:42.90
Dennis
Yes, yes.

01:09:50.50
Dennis
Yes, so I was I was that guy. Um, until I got to Lauren's booth and this is actually her first time at gencon and she was just kind of dipping her toes in the con scene to see how it went. Um, and was very successful for her so and she does them regularly now. Um, but I walked up and I saw her art and immediately I was like oh this is what I want it to look like like before before I said a word to her. It was like it was that clear. It was like ah this looks like deck of wonders and.

01:10:24.68
Dennis
Now nothing else even potentially looks like um so' I'm glad that I could afford her because otherwise I would have been Toocc but I literally just walked up and was like hey you know I'm I'm making a game like your style I think is what I want to do for it. Would you be open.

01:10:29.80
Jala
Ah, yeah.

01:10:42.58
Dennis
So we you know we stayed in contact I kind of pitched her on the story and she loved it and immediately had all these cool ideas for it. Um, and and things just grew from there. Um, but 1 thing Lauren always says is is she was very grateful that you know I tried to put together like um reference folders for her like just.

01:11:01.87
Dennis
Every card had a folder of pictures that I thought like captured the uvre of the card. Um and more often than not work that she had previously done would be used in those folders. So she's like it's It's always nice when you open up a project and be like oh my work is what this is supposed to look like that's great.

01:11:16.66
Jala
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure because there's there's definitely times as again as an artist who did commission work for quite a number of years and gallery and stuff like.

01:11:18.67
Dennis
That's ah that makes things easy.

01:11:31.32
Jala
Oh it. It is a thing where people will come up to you and they're like you're an artist. You can either 1 of 2 things happens. They either go. You're an artist continue to do just this 1 thing you have no no other skills in your set except this one particular thing because that's what I've focused on or.

01:11:49.69
Jala
It's the opposite way where it's like oh so you do ah you know like I see that all of your work here is super representational and this this than that How would you like to pant paint fantasy Mermaids and Bright pop pop. You don't like why and and all those others be like okay, put this on my dress but like okay wait a minute. What is you're doing what now.

01:12:09.59
Jala
You know, like yes can I do that? Yes, do I Want to do that I'm not so sure like wait a minute. What? so.

01:12:17.72
Dennis
Um, so I think in terms of advice for people who are looking at at doing a kickstarter um, like absolutely find an artist that like their style is what you would want. Um, like their their native style versus like finding the person that you already know or the person that you have access to and trying to force them into a style that you'll get infinitely better results working within the artist's style. Um, another thing this is something that Lauren told me that worked really well. Um, was.

01:12:50.21
Dennis
When you find an artist that you like even if it's someone that like okay this person you know this person does magic the gathering cards I could never afford them find them on social media and then look at who they follow because artists follow artists. Um, and you finding people that your artist thinks are cool.

01:13:07.70
Dennis
Um, or you know the the stuff that they're following will give you a thousand more reference points that are are probably in the area of what you're looking for.

01:13:14.33
Jala
Absolutely absolutely a solid suggestion. But yeah.

01:13:18.34
Dennis
And they they're probably more plugged in we'll follow the like the people that are lesser known or you know are up and coming that kind of deal that that you might you know, even if you can't work with that 1 artist. That person probably knows people or follows people on social media that that can be useful.

01:13:38.32
Jala
Um, and you might even come across like somebody whose art style isn't like how you initially thought you you know you wanted it to look like and then you're like oh no, actually this is a little bit better I think and you know for what I'm I'm looking for.

01:13:51.76
Jala
But that same thing applies to music as well. Like you know you don't want to get somebody to um, you know do like your podcast Jingle or something if they are not already like you know of a style that you like to do you know like that you like to listen to that you wanted to sound like you know like when I had Jake lyonhart.

01:14:10.41
Jala
And do the music for my podcast. Um I already know Jake's stuff and he's awesome. You should check him out but also um, you know he already had a style that like when I said okay I want my intro to have these feels and I want the outro to sound like you know, kind of like this.

01:14:29.12
Jala
Here is a reference song of something you know here's a couple of reference songs this one in particular though and then he's like oh this is jamt I absolutely just I have that on the rotation today at the office and whatever because he loved it. You know and he says like yes I get it cool I will absolutely you know so.

01:14:46.98
Dennis
Yeah, that always works great.

01:14:48.39
Jala
So yeah, but like um so I do know that ah Lauren is a person of color and also that your cards to the humanoid characters also have like a broader spectrum of folks. It's not just a bunch of white elven people or whatever you know.

01:15:06.73
Dennis
Ah, yeah, not not traditional European fantasy.

01:15:08.80
Jala
Traditional European Yes, yes, there's the the PC way of saying that? um yes, the you know not traditional European fantasy folks only um, it had water. 

01:15:17.73
Dennis
Basic would be the non-PC way of saying it. Ah.

01:15:25.18
Jala
Like that was that something that was just like a natural part of the development of the game did you have like um you know different. Um I don't know cultural references that you had in mind for the different characters or did that just kind of evolve that way.

01:15:43.70
Dennis
Um, no it was it was baked in from the start and and very like the first call where where I talked with Lauren like obviously when we connected at the booth. Um I could see in her work. She did a lot of people of color and. Um, you know like that that is one of the things that she is very passionate about um is the idea of like fantasy can look like anything. So why do we keep on going back to the same looking things like let's make fantasy more diverse that makes it better.

01:16:10.76
Dennis
Um, and so in our conversation just the way we connected that was very on the front of the page is like hey we both think that a more diverse world is more interesting and that should be a part of deck of wonders. Um I never like I couldn't bring myself to write in like a specific. Um.

01:16:30.33
Dennis
Requirements or anything into my briefing like it feels feels so Eooky. Um and that like I was in you know a major corporation where that was that was kind of what you did like it's better than not doing it but it also just feels weird to be like yes.

01:16:45.00
Dennis
Should be at least you know 30% people of color and like that was it just felt weird.

01:16:47.79
Jala
Yeah, that yeah that that starts getting into the I'm hitting my quote you know Quoha your quote um quote requirements or whatever. Unique I got I got to hit my numbers. You know for the month or whatever like that that gets into that kind of territory which is always feels skeevy and weird. You know we got to sell this many you know company credit cards or whatever you know, upsell everything by this many like oh no, no.

01:16:57.81
Dennis
Um, hitting your quotas. Yeah.

01:17:10.33
Dennis
Yeah, yeah, so so but and what we had said or what I had said is like hey I want to see all kinds of races all kinds of body types and you know all kinds of genders in in the in the cards.

01:17:27.80
Dennis
Um, and Lauren very much did that I think but that's as far as I went I never um with the exception I mentioned necromancer earlier. It was just because like when I had that idea it was that was how it was my head. So I think the wheelchair um or dictating a person in a wheelchair on on that was the 1 place I was specific. But again, that's that's all I didn't that's all I said um and then she took it and ran with it from there. Um, but everything else just came out of Lauren's mind and that like the way she sees the world is this very diverse and cool place and and that made deck of wonders a very diverse and cool place.

01:18:02.60
Jala
Which is as it should be So um, it's really neat that you also set up individual folders with reference material because basically artists will do this very often.

01:18:14.53
Jala
For themselves and they basically have what's called a Morgue and it's a morgue of images that they archive with like interesting textures. Interesting you know, um composition elements or you know this that and the other like reference material for themselves like I have a gigantic morgue on my computer that I have of just like a bunch of free images.

01:18:34.19
Jala
You know that have different aspects that I might want to use in like a digital thing or like as a reference when I'm drawing something like oh I need to know the nitty-gritty about how to do this texture while having a reference is always important for that. So the fact that you went to do that is like a large chunk of the work for prep to do.

01:18:52.96
Jala
Ah, things So that's awesome as an artist I approve.

01:18:53.88
Dennis
Ah, yeah, why know I I got a lot of empathy for the things that feel like they should be really easy to find online images of are not at all that way I think particular pixie cleric is 1 of the cards.

01:19:12.33
Dennis
Um, and I had this this idea of like the cleric holding a soldier like cradling a soldier in their arms like a wounded soldier on on the tame side of the card and I was like oh it'll be so easy to find like you know a medic like cradling.

01:19:28.38
Dennis
Cradling a soldier or something like that. No it was like 4 hours of searching. It's find something that was even even approximate. So I think I wound up just writing a lot more description but like yeah as it was it was helpful and it was a lot of work. But I think that work paid off for sure.

01:19:42.99
Jala
Did you ever because this is something that artists will do too. They will take pictures of themselves like they will set it up and they will do like you know they will make myettes or they will like put themselves in a costume and like fake it out and just have like an image that's just like okay.

01:19:59.35
Jala
Something like this but imagine that I'm a medic and my child is a soldier. Whatever like you know, like okay.

01:20:02.40
Dennis
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I didn't quite there. Get there but Lauren absolutely did that there's um, there's one image. Um, where the person a person's like kind of slamming their arm down on something and and the the arm is like slightly hyper extended. And and she's like oh yeah, my roommate like her arms hyperextend a little bit like that so she was like that's just a feature and again like that's a very small way to do like diverse representation. But there's a person that's like I don't know if it's quite double joininted but like has that hyper extension and that showed up in the art.

01:20:36.51
Dennis
Also another really fun one is sometimes it happens subconsciously. Um, so the Nt hermit or excuse me Triant Hermit I can't say ant. Um, that's that's ah the the Tolen house but the triant hermit um has like you know the.

01:20:53.53
Dennis
The triants and in deck of wonders are like you know, very tree like so their hair is is you know, massive branches. Um and Lauren and I were talking about the art and she kind of pauses and goes oh that's the trees outside of the last house I lived in or like you might the house before the one I'm in now.

01:21:12.60
Jala
Ah, that's pretty awesome. Um.

01:21:12.92
Dennis
She's like that's where there's are from and she like so completely subconsciously like his his hairstyle is akin to those trees but she didn't even realize it until after she was finished and and talking about it with me.

01:21:25.71
Jala
Um, yeah, that that type of thing definitely will pop up and you don't even realize the ways in which you infuse everything that you do with yourself and it really just kind of comes out. It's like again listening to you talk.

01:21:38.97
Jala
About like because you are very happy and content to go into the weeds on the like how the how the kickstarter works and everything because you love that business end just as much as you love anything else about it. So yeah, but um.

01:21:52.39
Jala
So how was it when you were trying to come up with the like did it the size of the cards the type of paper the texture the shine The whatever thickness I mean because all of those things make a difference. Did you just like pick. Okay I wanted to be kind of like this card game or were you like up in there feeling all the samples and stuff.

01:22:10.66
Dennis
Yeah, feeling all the samples and the manufacturer was very proactive and like hey you know our options are you know this gsm through this gsm you can have whitecore black core blue core these 3 different finishes. Your head's probably spinning right now just give me your address I'll send you a folder of all this stuff and I didn't even have to ask them for it. They proactively sent that my way and then you know yeah you spend some time just like bending it shuffling it ripping it apart and and all that stuff and that that landed me in the place I was so it's very.

01:22:43.84
Dennis
Very tactile I learned more about paper than I ever thought I would um I think card size I knew from the beginning I wanted this to be like a a um, a tuck box of cards. Obviously the game comes in a larger box. But once you've built a deck it fits in a tuck box of cards and so that that kind of two and a half by three and a half constraint

01:23:04.38
Dennis
Um, was was there from the start as well.

01:23:04.67
Jala
And that also plays into the size of like your font has to be no, you know, no smaller than this for your font because you have to make it legible and the art can't be too detailed on this front because it's got to be you know on such a small scale.

01:23:23.42
Dennis
Yeah, my reference point was Pokemon cards on that I was like my font as long as my font is bigger than the font I can find on Pokemon cards I'm okay and I accomplished that but just barely. Ah.

01:23:33.85
Jala
Well I'm sure it was difficult because you had to then try it out on every single card on every single layout and go okay is the what about that you know that 1 card that has all that text on it like is it going to fit with that one. What can I do can I cut out a word because I just need like 2 spaces you know.

01:23:43.85
Dennis
Um, yes, yeah, so that there's there's a bit of advice for you. Especially if you're doing a game like mine that has a lot of different cards. Um I briefed Lauren on the card template.

01:24:01.39
Dennis
As a a separate project like a graphic design project that happened first before any of the art or I should say alongside the first like 5 or so pieces of art. Um, and and she made that template um to to kind of work for that. But then I I actually you know.

01:24:19.64
Dennis
Got access to photoshop during this process and taught myself a lot about how to use Photoshop. Um, because when you get into the nitty-gritty of finalizing cards. There are so many things that like emailing your artist and asking them to oh I forgot to put a period at the end of this section. Or oh I realized I used you know typos or just small wording changes. Um, there were 1000000 of them and me knowing how to use photoshop to make those changes and then re-export it to be in the right format and everything was invaluable. Um, we'd we'd still be going back and forth on edits if I had to rely on Lauren for everything.

01:24:57.34
Dennis
Um, even even learning how to modify the art like going down to um, you know oh you know the the bleed is actually slightly different around the edges than I thought it was going to be can I use photoshop to extend out a little bit or resize things slightly um like I got fairly confident in doing that.

01:25:15.66
Dennis
Um, they're thinking to like contract and licensing stuff. Um, just make sure like you've got permission to do that. You can theoretically write contracts where it's like you can use the arp but you can't touch. It can't modify it. Um, we wrote our so like it wasn't wasn't a problem. Um.

01:25:33.41
Dennis
But ah, but yeah that that made things so much smoother going into photoshop and and learning how to how to modify things on a small scale myself.

01:25:44.51
Jala
So I just saw in my email. The other day was it yesterday literally? Ah, or maybe it was today I do not know ah the print and play.

01:25:53.78
Dennis
Um, yes, yeah, that's ah yeah, if you if you want to play deck of wonders right now. Not wait for shipping. You can you can get a print and play version and you just need to be confident enough in your printing setup to to print out a lot of cards.

01:26:08.81
Jala
Yeah, yeah, so that's already out. Um, what is the current state of product arrival printing and so on.

01:26:19.50
Dennis
Yeah, so it's it's shipped from the manufacturer. So everything's printed. Um, it has cleared customs at its various regions because there's there's 3 regional distribution centers I have confirmation from the Europe distributor that it should arrive to their location by the end of this week

01:26:37.42
Jala
Um, when this airs on Black Friday so yeah

01:26:37.42
Dennis
Um, so so basically I'm not sure exactly when this airs but nice. Okay, yeah, so so you should be it should be arriving at the European Distribution Center as as people are listening to this which is massively exciting. Um, and then I imagine the us and Australia shipments are the same like ish timeline but I just have gotten a little less information on those. So.

01:27:05.10
Jala
Yeah, well and then too like the shipping is is still such a nightmare from all the Covid times and things so you know like ongoing Covid times. But um, you know so like that's still that's still in the works we were I know we were talking about it and we were like hoping that it would be.

01:27:21.33
Jala
Already like on its way to the people who backed by the time this episode came out but unfortunately that that is ah it's still in the works. It's on the way shortly but still in the works. So.

01:27:32.80
Dennis
Yeah I think I wound up we're going I'm going to wind up being off by about a month um but I'm okay with that you know that's ah that's all right by me and and again going back to the kickstarter community I think the type of people who backed this like they they understand how kickstarter works they know that timelines can shift and. I haven't gotten guff from anyone well I shouldn't say that I've gotten guf from a few people. Um, but the vast majority of people have been so so just supportive and understanding as timelines have shifted. But yeah, um, by the end of the year. It should be in people's hands.

01:28:04.20
Dennis
Um, and if you want to still go and pre-order it I'm sure we'll talk about this at the end again. Um pretors are up. Ah you know you can always pre-order the game or just straight order it once it's ready to ship. Um, you might not be in the first wave of shipments. But the distributors have said like it shouldn't it shouldn't be that much trouble to get a second wave of shipments out and then go to ongoing shipments fairly seamlessly so you might get a slight delay versus the people in the first wave but it won't take long if you're if you're interested.

01:28:33.77
Jala
That's cool and it sounds like you so you said distributors. So that means that you are not having to have pallets of things arrive at your house.

01:28:42.22
Jala
Because that is not that has happened with some folks who kickstart that they just have large pallets of things come to their house and then they're like buried in boxes for a while until they can ship it off themselves. It's great that you have a distributor. So.

01:28:53.77
Dennis
Yeah, so I didn't wind up going with a publisher I did wind up using a distributor and and yeah, not having to deal with all the printing and shipping is is going to be a huge blessing especially because this is going out over the holidays. Essentially so.

01:29:08.71
Jala
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, so tell me more about the tabletop simulator digital version that you were demoing.

01:29:10.92
Dennis
Ah, grateful grateful for them for sure.

01:29:20.52
Dennis
Yeah, that's that's essentially what I demoed at that very first gencon just now with all the art and niceties around it. Um, but man that that was kind of like photoshop where I just had to like dig in and do a ton of learning and teach myself.

01:29:35.14
Dennis
How to load stuff in it's very doable if you're interested in doing it. Um, and you know getting getting something uploaded to steam workshop is not nearly as intimidating as it seems um, but yeah, you can you can just go if you have tabletop simulator and play the demo version of this game which which is effectively like the first villain. Um, ah right now. That's that's available and you don't even have to print anything.

01:29:58.30
Jala
Yeah, so there you go There is an option for folks who don't want to go out and print they want to wait for their physical copy and um so that's that's definitely thing but I also know that you have audio like telling that story because I was going to ask you so.

01:30:14.42
Jala
You have this story and you know you've got your vagabond you know person who stole from fate and all of that. So that's like a pretty loaded like you're already starting it out with some some epic stuff and like we need to hear the story behind this and you know you've got an audio cast that was recording this for you.

01:30:33.42
Dennis
Yes, so I worked with forteller that's an app that's specifically dedicated to doing fully produced audio for games that have story so gloom havenven and frost havenn now have have this um and then there's just a bunch any campaign games Storyd driven game.

01:30:50.31
Dennis
Um, even games like above and below near and far um like those games have this audio. Um, and it's such a cool idea. Um, and and they do an amazing job this this isn't just like a narrator reading it. This is actors. Um, you know voiceover work This is music. That was hell of fun to put together. Um and sound effects. All this stuff. Um, you know it is It is like a movie just just ah in audio form fully produced. So Yeah I I found Forteller Um, because I saw them working on a game called the Isaffarian Guard. And that Kickst started a little bit ahead of of deck of wonders and so it was just on my radar. It did very well and I was like what is this? they're like their story is going to be voiced. This is so cool. Um, and I just reached out to him was like how you know how much does this sort of thing cost that gave me a quote and I added it as a stretch goal.

01:31:45.73
Dennis
Um, and it was the final stretch goal at the end of the campaign. Um, and and we didn't quite reach it but I was just like I found myself after the campaign was over being like it's so freaking cool I Just want to do it I Just I just I want this right.

01:32:00.82
Dennis
Um, and so I you know I worked with them and and and kind of was able to to make it happen regardless of whether or not we hit it now of course with with late pledges. Um and pre-orders that happened after the campaign we we then you know easily surpassed even the highest stretch goal that I had sent so. Um, this you know I kind of knew I was going to be more than covered for it. But I leaned in um, they were amazing. So I worked um with ah with a guy named Adam there he goes by the sad skull online. Um, and and he is man he is my kind of crazy this guy this guy was amazing um did all the production and and just like was so good at at you know talking with me and and understanding what was in my head and then filling in the spaces where like I didn't really know what to think about an audio medium um and bringing stuff together. It was it was a really fun process but I kind of wrote. Yeah I wrote all the story segments and those were were kind of translated over to audio um and worked closely with Adam on that the the music score was really interesting because I didn't I didn't know what I wanted for musical score. And I think I was probably just leaning towards like well generic fantasy stuff right? That's what you're going to do but um, then I talked to Lauren and of course with Lauren stuff. Can't be generic fantasy right? Um, and the final villain his his name is byzantis the enthraller ah and she had this crazy cool idea for him.

01:33:33.99
Dennis
Where like his color palette is all jewel tones I think you might have referenced him as the ice guy in your notes like he's the the cover was yeah, that's ah, that's that's mysants. Yes, um, but he like the fact that there's like crystals woven through everything and it's all Jewel tones and like very pastel.

01:33:40.60
Jala
Um, the avatar guy. Okay.

01:33:53.29
Dennis
Um, even though he's this ah evil sorcerer ah was all her idea and so we had so much fun with that that I was like oh god like this like 80 s vibe is really cool. What if we went that direction for the music and that led me to like labyrinth.

01:34:10.16
Dennis
And the score for labyrinth and like all this eighty synth that was cool as hell. Um, and so that was that was like deb brief. You talk about briefing the musician that was the idea is like do do like the fantasy version of all this cool 80 s synth and like that's that's the driving force behind and so.

01:34:27.44
Dennis
They had a field day with that and the result is so cool. Um, yeah.

01:34:28.86
Jala
Yeah, well, especially like having having that clear vision of what it is that you're looking for and you can pin it down in just a few words and you can explain it easily to somebody else who doesn't know what you're talking about and that's that is an effective. Um you know prompt.

01:34:44.60
Dennis
Um, yeah, hey it worked out I'm I As as happy with as I am with the game I am I'm equally as happy with ah with the music and the audio production for forteller.

01:34:56.10
Jala
So is the audio out.

01:35:00.70
Dennis
It is out anyone who backed got it for free anyone who who wants it still can get it I think it's three ninety nine on their app so you can go and download that and yeah, it is available now. So if you're playing the print and play version and when you use the audio you can totally do that.

01:35:16.96
Jala
So um, when do you use the audio. There's got to be obviously like a startup does it have like a okay after you play X number of get like how does that work out.

01:35:26.87
Dennis
Yeah, so so one of the first bits in the rulebook is like the opening segment of story and so any any any place there's story in the game. Um, you can find that audio or that that you know the audio version of that in the app. Um, and it all kind of flows very clearly. Um, so you you know you press play when you when you start reading that and it just it does it for you and you get to kind of listen to it instead of read it and then you know it points throughout the game. You'll open new packs of cards and those will always have a couple cards that just have story on them. And wherever you get that you can open up your your forteller app and and play the audio then as well.

01:36:04.58
Jala
Very cool, very cool. So tell us about what's been going on since you finished your kickstarter I mean like there's obviously there's backer updates. There's you know, dealing with all the the backend stuff. But then.

01:36:21.39
Jala
Like I know you've been still actively going to cons and things and of course doing interviews on podcasts and what not so like have you been marketing to shops. Are you waiting for physical copies like what what you been up to.

01:36:26.34
Dennis
Yeah, that old thing.

01:36:36.83
Dennis
Yeah, all of the above. Um, the biggest thing right? after the kickstarter was doing the rest of the art. So I mentioned that that was a huge expense. Um, and I couldn't I couldn't pay for all the art upfront. So I was very strategic I think it was like 8 total pieces of art that I had Lauren make beforehand that I just I paid out of pocket for um and then I I used those 8 pieces of art to make it look like I had hundreds of cards you know and it's just like those those 8 ones are only the only ones that are ever face up.

01:37:11.19
Dennis
Ah, if you notice as you scroll the kickstarter kickstarter page. Um, so yeah that I once I once I finished the kickstarter it was over to Lauren to like hey here's here's the brief for the other 50 pieces of art have fun. Yeah, it was obviously much more back and forth than that. But that.

01:37:29.22
Dennis
I mean art art takes a long time and especially involved art like Lauren was doing. She couldn't just crank out a bunch of icons she had to really really, um, you know work closely on every single one. So um, that that was a longer process than I expected.

01:37:48.95
Dennis
And I was very protective of Lauren because I mean shit she's she's trying to do that. Um, amid you know, whatever is going on her personal life. The just the macro scene in the us was a shit show and particularly for a person of color and so like just I was very protective of like like if you think I want you to do work that you are happy with and that you feel is finished and that you are excited to share and however long that takes is however long it takes and so I wound up I think pushing the project back about six months just to give her the breathing space she needed for all of that. Um, and there you know there were other delays on top of that then like I think.

01:38:25.98
Dennis
I mentioned I'm within a month of of what my latest deadline is going to be um, overall the project I think has been about a year late but that's not strange by kickstarter terms. Um, yeah, yeah.

01:38:33.81
Jala
No, no, especially not in the middle of the kind of trash fire that we've been more you know since you started working on this actually. So.

01:38:46.77
Dennis
Um, but I mean absolutely like the quality of her work was like showed because of that process and I'm happy with ah with the time that we took anyway. But the the art was very involved and very back and forth. Um and then setting things up with the distributor was very involved and very back and forth. Um, but basically when I whenever I had a new batch of art done with Lauren I would kind of go back around to all the people that had covered the game before and said like hey want to do a card reveal. Um and we kind of reveal the art and reveal a card and talk about it. Um on their shows and so that was a ton of fun.

01:39:24.34
Dennis
And a way to like keep interest and have new stuff talk about even as you know we've been really cranking through the technical side of all this.

01:39:29.53
Jala
So what was for you like the most surprising part of this whole ride that you've been on so far.

01:39:42.89
Dennis
Oh man, biggest surprise um I mentioned just how cool and understanding the community has been like that was definitely a surprise. Um I Think anytime you're doing something with an online community. You worry that you're just going to get people. Um, who are not very kind. Not very patient and it's been the complete opposite of that. So Just how just how cool everyone has been has been really really a pleasant surprise. Um, that's probably the biggest one What else? What else has been surprising about all of this. Um. The amount of detail. Um, and and Minutiae that goes into just finishing a project is incredible. Um, and you you mentioned like all the different card types and shes and the the weight of the paper and the the core of the card. Um, and it's that times everything about the game. Um, there's There's definitely a point of decision fatigue that you reach um and you know, but when you care about something you want to be in all those details and so that's it's just Work. You've got to do. But there's definitely.

01:40:52.99
Dennis
Just so many more things to consider so many more minutiae that go into making a physical project than you can ever anticipate.

01:40:58.98
Jala
For sure. So then I got to ask what is your favorite card and you can you can I will let you cheat and do one for just the artwork and 1 for like the mechanical part because I know you like your.

01:41:14.20
Dennis
Woo. Okay, okay.

01:41:14.86
Jala
I know you like your mechanics so I'll give you two I'll give you 2 but 1 is art and 1 is mechanics.

01:41:21.20
Dennis
Okay, yeah, now that's fair I mean the the art is easy. It's the first piece of art that we ever did for the game. It's the forest troll. Um, and and I just think like that one that captured the duality.

01:41:36.80
Dennis
That I wanted all these cards to have so freaking. Well um, and it's like that's that's the R I would hang on the wall. That's the R I would get a tattoo of you know if I had to pick something that that's and that's an easy sell um is is the forest troll and so yeah, you don't have to look far to see that on the kickstarter page or or any of the the deck of wonders. Resources You can find it pretty easily easily so check that out. Um for the mechanics. That's an interesting One. Um and I got to decide if I want to like spoil any cards or anything like that. Um.

01:42:11.19
Dennis
We talked about no mission negotiator which is fun just just because it's like ah it's different. It's a spell on one side and it's a minion on the other so that one's fun. Um, let's talk about a card that I don't know if I've shared publicly before because it's in one of the villain stacks. Um, it's a card called avalanche.

01:42:29.14
Dennis
And I think if there if there's 1 card that perfectly encapsulates that feeling of like this is unfair. This is like totally wrong and then you figure out like oh no no I can play around this I can make this work. Um, it's Avalanche um, and so it's a spell and if ah if. You draw it you can play it to destroy all minions on the board. Um, but it has to be the only card you play at that turn and so that's you know that is you know a very powerful effect.

01:43:06.51
Dennis
But but you know it's not just going to get the enemies. It's going to get your guys too and and it's the only thing you can do that turn so that is that is this big effect. Um, and then on the villain side though it destroys all of your cards but only taps or or exhausts.

01:43:24.87
Dennis
All of the enemies' cards. So like that is you know the villain is not going to really like their enemies or their their their minions just get exhausted. Um, but they're going to stay on the board. They're perfectly fine otherwise and your side's going to aboard whites.

01:43:40.50
Dennis
Um, and like you have this huge requirement on on playing the card. The villain doesn't and so it just it feels like such an unfair card and my hope is when people get to that point in the game and they're like rifling through the new cards that they're going to be playing with they see that one and just like I can't you can't it's done. It's all like. No, that's not that's not what we that's not going to work like I can't do that? Um, but when you see it in action and you start learning to like um, kind of play around it and understand like you know how how committed you can be to the board when you know there's avalanches in the drawpile and all that stuff like. It becomes very playable and you you start um, just learning how to play around it. How to work that card not necessarily to your advantage because there's definitely places where you can use it to your advantage but to to mitigate its negative effects. More importantly, um. And once you get that feel. You're like okay all right I'm not afraid of avalanche anymore I understand it like me I've I've made peace with the mountain here and I can I can make this work. Um, and so that that card just that 1 card I think has its own arc.

01:44:52.60
Dennis
That encapsulates everything that I want the arc of the game to feel like I.

01:44:57.13
Jala
Um, so how do you unlock the next like each of the different phases of the game like do you just get to ah like you draw a certain number of cards. You do a certain number like how do you? How do you do that.

01:45:08.59
Dennis
Oh yeah, good question. Um, So every villain has a set of legacy packs that go with them and these are sealed packs of cards. Um, that have conditions on them. Um, so like many many objectives so you're not just trying to Win. You're trying to do this that and the other thing. Um and when you meet those conditions you open up the Packer Cards. So it's It's different for every legacy pack the way that you unlock it? Um, but there are some legacy packs that like.

01:45:38.84
Dennis
The only way you can unlock them is if you've also unlocked all the legacy packs that come before. Um, there's there's kind of a there's kind of a progression to it and then the final ah thing inside the final legacy pack um is the faded form of a villain and so you've been fighting.

01:45:57.56
Dennis
The villain's regular form this whole time and essentially as you're defeating them as you're defying fate to best them they eventually lose it right? They eventually go super sayan. Um and you kind of see their true selves reveal the the version of them that fate.

01:46:17.90
Dennis
Has always known was kind of hiding behind their facade. Um, and then you have to fight that version and it's always more powerful. It's always more difficult but the reward for defeating that villain or that that faded form villain is to open up the next villain in the story.

01:46:34.41
Dennis
Um, and so it kind of builds up to a big boss fight and then you get a whole new set of cards to play with and then you build through those and complete them any objectives and and have another big boss fight and and you're on and so that's got that kind of rhythm to it. It's all through those legacy packs.

01:46:48.14
Jala
So um, you say you have a whole different deck to play with the next time you you stop using the first set of cards or you add more to the deck and then that's why it's a new deck is because it has new cards like huh.

01:46:59.99
Dennis
Yeah, great question. So so the deck always starts out at 56 cards um half of them are going to be from the villain that you are facing so the rule is if you're if you're facing a villain you have to have their cards that villain's cards in your deck and so that comprises about half the deck.

01:47:17.60
Dennis
The remaining cards you can add whatever you want from your collection of cards and that collection starts about 3 times larger than than you would need so you have you have a lot of deck building options from the beginning and then it only gets bigger from there. Um.

01:47:35.33
Dennis
And so yeah, when you unlock a new villain I say you unlock a new deck because that that villain has a set of cards that you have to use. Um you could take the exact same cards that you were using from your collection before and slam them into ah that deck I Guess Um, but you might not you know, get such good results.

01:47:51.65
Jala
Yeah, it has to be more custom tailored against what you're fighting.

01:47:54.27
Dennis
Um, you might want to start that way and then say Okay, what's working what's not and I'll rotate stuff out if you really like deck building. You know you'll you'll be able to have a ton of fun just you know, swapping things out and trying it if you're not if you don't like deck building if you're not familiar with this genre of game.

01:48:12.81
Dennis
There's a recommended, um list of cards that go with every villain from your collection so you can just take the villain cards take the recommended cards put them together and you will have a a tough but fair challenge ahead of you and then as you start seeing? Okay, what are the weaknesses where am I having trouble.

01:48:29.69
Dennis
Ah, how could I optimize this then you might start experimenting with swapping in cards and then we'll have you hooked into tcgs and you'll just be you know, completely theory crafting everything from the bottom up and the eye will cackle evilly because we have you now.

01:48:46.00
Jala
Ah, so so another question I have for you? Um, you said that there is a co-op way to play this game. What does that look like versus how you play solo.

01:48:55.74
Dennis
Yeah, great question. Um, so you're a little bit playing in parallel and then a little bit having to share resources as as you play co-op um you will each face your own villain and have your own deck of cards. Um, at the beginning of every turn before you draw you are allowed to give a card to your partner and your partner is allowed to give a card to you. You don't have to but you can if you want to um and so there's this like sharing of resources that goes On.

01:49:29.32
Dennis
But I mean every car draw is so precious like that is I've tried to balance the game to kind of really write on a razor's edge that like you always have 1 less card than you need you know you're always just on the verge of being able to do exactly what you want you have to make hard choices. Um, and so like you know if if you need a big.

01:49:48.62
Dennis
Minion and your partner needs a big Aoi clear. Um and you happen to be holding the clear they they're holding the minion. You know you can swap and get the right card to the right player but that happens before you draw. So you don't fully know what you're going to get um and then to defeat the villain in the co-auth or the villains plural in the co-op mode. Um, you have to win on the same turn. So if yeah, if if you defeat your villain, but your partner is struggling your villain comes back to life with one health. Um, and you have to keep on fighting them until you can defeat your villain.

01:50:24.70
Dennis
At this on the same turn that your partner can defeat theirs.

01:50:26.27
Jala
So when you started doing this as a co-op version. Did you find that it suddenly like threw things out of whack and was harder to balance because that sounds like that would be harder to balance when you start doing that.

01:50:41.90
Dennis
Yeah, it honestly fit pretty well and I was more surprised about that than anyone else because I thought it was going to be that way. There's like okay well now I'm going to have to and I honestly debate it even putting a co-op version in because my priority was Solo play.

01:50:59.80
Dennis
Um, but as I play tested this and and you know some of it I just did playing 2 handed right? and some of it I did playing with with with friends. Um and some of the people who covered the game were were awesome and and like came back and played co-op mode with me. Um the the tension between.

01:51:16.46
Dennis
You know we can swap cards so we've got a little more agency on on having what we need but we have a higher win condition of needing to win on the same turn like those 2 things balance each other really well and then apart from that you know you're you're playing the regular game so it didn't it didn't need balance changes from there. Ah, so I think I just really lucked into those 2 twists offset each other in a way that I was really happy with.

01:51:43.91
Jala
Got you? That's cool. So then I know that you have expansion packs in the works. Um, or at least on the pipeline. Let's say maybe not necessarily in the works as you're still dealing dealing with the distribution bit. But.

01:51:59.49
Jala
Um, so what else is in the future for deck of wonders. You've got how much by way of expansion stuff in mind.

01:52:08.58
Dennis
Yeah, oh well I've got 2 expansions planned um and I know kind of the the key mechanics that each expansion is going to to use like I mentioned earlier there. There are these cool ideas I had that I was really excited about. But I was ruthless in cutting them because I knew I needed to focus on just a really solid starting product. Um, so some of those ideas I get to start playing with and introduce in the expansions. Um one. Yeah I'll I'll just talk about it. 1 and I can't remember if I've talked about this in other places. So hey you get you got you get a special reward for for listening this far on on jawless podcast in jaless place. Um, so one is going to be called um, the siege of edge everbright.

01:52:59.65
Dennis
Working title but it's going to play with the idea of ah, light and dark and there will be a card that flips back and forth. Um that you know one side will be kind of light. 1 side will be dark and certain cards that you play will will swap. Um, if it's light or dark um and other cards will have like different effects if it's like versus if it's dark. Um, and so really, you know it's it's one one extra card in terms of the ah paraphernalia around the game and then that opens up a whole design space. Um within the game.

01:53:37.14
Dennis
Ah I was so mad though because I started playing magic gathering. Um, ah after designing deck of wonders. Um, and they have this daybound nightbound mechanic which is very similar and I was like oh everyone's gonna think I just ripped that off. But.

01:53:55.29
Dennis
You know that's fine games that's something I've learned about the gaming world is like it's okay for games to be similar to each other. It's okay for games to have similar mechanics. Um, because by and large players don't feel ripped off if they have similar games they feel like oh great if I liked this game and this game is similar.

01:54:12.20
Dennis
Everyone wins I like that that means I get more cool stuff to do so Anyway, that's that's one and then the other um less defined and in terms of theme I think it's going to have to do with like the depths of the ocean like something something in that.

01:54:29.29
Dennis
Um, but I want it to be centered around co-op play because there were so many people that were interested in co-op play and um, just you know now that I've done justice to that one player version I want to have an expansion that if you know you're going to be playing with 2 players. You can have some bosses that like. Play with the idea that you have 2 parallel battles running a little bit more so you know none none of the villain abilities in the base game. Um, you know are are unique to co-op um the next or the third expansion then I guess second expansion. Third.

01:55:08.71
Dennis
Iteration You know you know what? I mean that that will then allow me to start playing with that co-op thing a little bit more.

01:55:15.35
Jala
Very cool. So storywise I don't know and we should not spoil what happens at the end of the story of the first deck of wonders game. But um, once you reach that first off what what happens at that point.

01:55:30.99
Jala
Um, do you just continue playing because you have the ability to play infinitely and there's like just not any anymore Story bits at that point. Um, but it's end game in game. Plus.

01:55:36.00
Dennis
Um, yeah, Ah, yeah, basically yeah, so there's someone someone said it really eloquently is like basic.. Basically when you quote unquote finish the story is when the game mechanically. Is the most complex and interesting So in a way the entire campaign. It's not I don't want to call it a tutorial right? because it's you know it is the game. Um, but you know as you progress to the story things are just getting.

01:56:09.62
Dennis
More complicated and you're getting more deck building options. There's new mechanics that are introduced. Um and you're getting to play with all those kind of piecemeal as you go through the different villains when you get to the end of the game. You can then you know you you have all the deck building tools at your disposal and all the different villains and their faded forms ah to go against and so now now it is very open for you to go and start experimenting. Um and I think people who enjoy deck building that is like when the real game begins. You know.

01:56:44.27
Dennis
Um, in terms of of story. Yeah, you'll have reached ah a conclusion I hope it's a satisfying conclusion and it's also one that will will set up. You know, um, the ability to tell more stories in the world of elladale which which by the way so the world that this happens in is called Ellidale. And that is because um, the suggestion from kickstarter backers was they wanted the name of the world to be a palindrome so e l a d a l e l adale.

01:57:14.12
Jala
That's pretty funny and that's funny because it's like everyone in the back Backer Community is just like palindromes now go like that's I Just imagine this. We're unified front of people signs with palindromes like okay.

01:57:31.60
Jala
That's that's a very specific thing that I don't know I would have thought of off the top of my head but ok, yeah, yeah.

01:57:37.68
Dennis
Yeah, right Creativity loves constraints right? Give me it has to be a pallid room great that narrows it down from like it could be anything to now. It can be creative in this direction. So yeah, ah, there's also a reward that everyone gets because the kickstarter backers were amazing.

01:57:54.94
Dennis
Um, the inside of the box lid now has a map of ellidale. Um, oh done by Daniel Walhot walfater I should have mentioned him as as one of the contributors to the game. Um, he I've just found him online. He he does maps um and and among many other things. But I really liked the maps that he did.

01:57:57.16
Jala
Cool. Very cool also I will I will make this comment again and I will just keep on going. Oh I'm glad that you didn't just turn to Lauren and go Lauren make a map like no, no, no.

01:58:14.36
Dennis
And so he did one for a deck of wonders.

01:58:28.82
Jala
There's a certain artistry to maps that like there needs to be people who like maps doing it. You know so that requires a lot of research if you do not know anything about it. So.

01:58:35.83
Dennis
Um, yeah, no, it's a I mean it's almost. It's almost like a graphic design thing as much as as it is an art thing. So yeah, totally.

01:58:45.39
Jala
Um, yeah, so more stories in your world of deck of wonders. So um, do you have more story stuff in mind. Are there.

01:58:58.32
Jala
Story bits lower bits other tales that you want to tell that are not necessarily expansion packs but maybe possibly something else. Yeah.

01:59:07.40
Dennis
Oh man I I would go off the deep end if we started talking about that. Yeah I Honestly what I want to do? Um, oh what's the name of the game. It's It's like the deep woods or something like that. Let me um, I'm I'm googling to see. Maybe yes, Okay, it's called the deep forest um and the deep forest is a game.

01:59:40.10
Dennis
Um, that is by the people who did the quiet year and the quiet year itself is an amazing game that it essentially is a map drawing game but you basically use a deck of cards to to um walk.

01:59:59.15
Dennis
Through the events that shape the map of your world and at the end of the game. You know it's not competitive or anything. It's just like a storytelling device at the end of the game you have this beautiful embellished map with all this cool detail that tells a story that just feels very.

02:00:17.19
Dennis
Real and lived in um, and and I just thought that was so so cool. So what I want to do is is to call on like fill in the history of um of the world of Elladale I Want to play a game of the quiet year or excuse me ah play a game of the deep forest.

02:00:36.51
Dennis
Um, which is kind of a little bit more of a fantasy ah bent than the quiet year. Um and and use that as a way to like uncover what the history of Elladale might have been. Um, yeah, like high high level for um.

02:00:52.95
Dennis
The the story and this is in the intro segment by the way if you want to see what the Forteller audio is like um you can go to their website and look up the deck of wonders audio and the the intro story is is there like example, audio you could just listen to that for free and it's so freaking. Cool. Um. But the story is almost like in eladdale there used to be many gods. Um, but the gods for whatever reason abandoned Ellidale fate was the only one that decided to remain and she kind of fallen in love with this world flawed as it was um, but was the only one that could see its potential and so she she made the choice. Um, to instead of abandoning the world to darkness um with with her Kin you know, um, she eternally broke from the other gods and stayed with Ellidale Um this this kind of huge um you know act of love I Guess you could call it um towards the world.

02:01:49.91
Dennis
But then you know she's made this commitment. She's bound to ellidale now. Um and over time the people of eladedale just kind of lose interest and fate and here she is having having given everything to stay connected to this world and to save this world and the world is just kind of like yeah no thanks. What have you done for me lately.

02:02:09.85
Dennis
Like you know, like like they're they're not interested in fate unless she's telling them exactly what they want to hear. Um and so that's where she starts kind of getting brokenhearted and twisted and um, kind of moving a little bit more towards that villain side of things. Um as she's she's you know Hurt. Um. But anyway so that's that's like the origin then there's so much History. That's not written and then there's the deck of wonders and so I want to go in and fill out that huge gap um with the deep forest.

02:02:39.82
Jala
That sounds like a very long project also but but if a fun one to do a very fun one to do a fun one to partake of as well on the other end of things. Um, yeah.

02:02:44.10
Dennis
Um, yeah, but mostly I don't.

02:02:52.26
Dennis
Yeah I want to I want to find the right group of people to play with like obviously I'd want Lauren to to participate. Um, and I just like I don't know I feel like I want I want to find the right group of storytellers to do that with and it would be so cool people people who are better at world building than me that's what I need.

02:03:10.60
Jala
Yeah, yeah, um I know about those things. Um, one of the various projects that I worked on for I don't know about half of my life was building a particular world that I was telling stories in um, both with more actually with audio and.

02:03:28.10
Dennis
I Remember this I remember I don't remember the name of it but I remember you talking about this.

02:03:28.40
Jala
Artwork and Co Commax yeah Yeah, yeah, and then like everything else that I would do any spinoff project ended up like melding into that and then incorporating itself into one giant jaw of verse of a thing. So. You know, like everything was tied in so anything that I worked on and that was like a kind of serialized production if you will comics wise or um, just short form prose. You know that kind of thing would wrap itself up into the same. Thing and then I even had some art shows that were faith. You know, um, focused around the same concept. So yeah, world building is so fun. World building is fun. So but yeah, um, yeah, that's just.

02:04:06.45
Dennis
Um, yeah, there it in you think kind of have a bit of a noir bent to it like that.

02:04:15.72
Jala
It's it's so funny. You say that because um, we've already done on this show. Um, the who framed roger rabbit and we were talking about doing more noir stuff in the future as as like other things that we talk about and we we were um, kind of hanging out on noir um on a couple of episodes actually' so. So yeah, um, yeah, that's that's C'est La Mort was one of the one of the one of the different aspects of that particular universe. Yes, so.

02:04:35.18
Dennis
Um, oh say C'est La Mort, right? Am I saying that right, C'est La Mort?

02:04:44.32
Dennis
That's that's the one that you were on when we talked about the world. Yes, cool.

02:04:49.14
Jala
Yes, correct. So um, but yeah, so that's all really really interesting because I was going to say like if you don't have more story stuff in your head that you want to work on with this then that's going to be your real shame because you. Have ideas and I know that you know maybe you don't do the worldbuilding part of it but like you definitely um, have a lot of um, interesting twists in your head different ways that things could play out that are not necessarily like the typical. So.

02:05:23.63
Jala
Very cool.

02:05:24.12
Dennis
Yeah I think I think Elladale will be a fun world to live in. Ah honest to God I am almost interested to see like I want the game to come out and I want to hear the community talk about like what what do people react to because that will inspire me more than anything else for like where to go with it.

02:05:41.12
Dennis
Um, I mean the hell the community named the world right? like I feel like that's that that is very much in in character to to kind of take inspiration from them on it.

02:05:51.11
Jala
Yeah, yeah for sure So Furia games what's up next for Furia games is going to be what's up next with deck of wonders I do have to ask though, do you have other projects aside from ah further expansion of deck of wonders that you want to work on as well.

02:06:07.54
Dennis
Yeah I bet that assumption your assumption is incorrect Ma'am Um, so I actually have a game that is in the coming soon stage on Kickstarter right now it's called dueling Pianos and this is this game cannot be more different than deck of wonders deck of wonders is a.

02:06:23.66
Dennis
Legacy involved. Um you know ah game dueling pianos is just a simple little domino game. Um, and it's it's meant to be played. It's a versus game so 2 player heads up. Um ah very quick rounds.

02:06:41.61
Dennis
Um, so like you know it's It's compact and it's quick like deck of wonders but everything else is different. So if you want to see more about that. You can go to Kickstarter search for dueling Pianos and you'll find the coming soon page and Click notify me and you'll get to hear when that gets launched.

02:06:57.85
Jala
Awesome! Very very cool. Well I know that this okay this episode is running about the same as any Jala-chan's Place episode. But for I'm sure for you for you like you're already like okay we egg timer out before this on The Level like why are we still going. So let's do some wrap up thoughts like what? what are your overall hopes for the future of your deck of wonders Like. Once everybody's getting it in their hands kind of thing like because especially if it's going to be over the holidays people will be with other folks and they can show each other the game and you know try to teach their younger sibling or whatever how to play or you know.

02:07:43.26
Dennis
Yeah I I am honestly excited to just see everyone get into it and honestly to break it. Um, you know the the nature of the game is there's just so many different combinations of cards and scenarios.

02:08:00.84
Dennis
Um, that I can't possibly I think I place play tested about 500 different games. Um, or you know had 500 plays of deck of wonders by the time I kickstarted it um and but you know I can't possibly have found everything like there's people that are way better at card games than me.

02:08:18.86
Dennis
So I'm very curious to watch how people break it and you know find those broken combos and and all that stuff like that. That'll be really really interesting. Um, and so I'm excited for that and um, man. Yeah. Then? then just excited to to take inspiration from from what people jump at and and see what comes next.

02:08:37.50
Jala
Yeah, sounds good So where can folks find you on social media slash the internet if they if they are not on the socials.

02:08:50.93
Dennis
Yeah, so the best place to find me at this point is um, the the deck of wonders discord and and yeah I've kind of retreated from Twitter I've got a Facebook page so you're you're welcome to to do the Facebook page.

02:09:06.41
Dennis
Um, but I'm not not hyperactive on that I'm kind of funneling people towards the Discord now because that feels like the 1 safe place on the internet. Um yeah, you can find me and honestly if you're if you're in duckfeed I'm on the duck feed slack all the time you're welcome to talk to me there and you know.

02:09:22.85
Dennis
Jaa has ah discord that I'm on as well feel free to at me on thatll I'll try to hang out in there. Um, and then deck of wonders you can find by on game found just go to game foundund dot com and search for deck of wonders and the pre-order page will be right? there. You can also go to the kickstarter page for it and then that links through to game found so either of those places is great.

02:09:43.32
Jala
Awesome! Awesome! And of course I can be found anywhere I can be found at jalachan including jalachan.place where you got this episode so that's all for now folks until next time, take care of yourself and remember to smile.

[Show Outro]
Jala
Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!

[Outro Music]