[Show Intro]
Jala
Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! 
Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here!

[Intro music]

Jala: Hello world, and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host, Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Adam (he/him) and Leonard (he/him). How are you both doing today?

Adam: Thank you for having us on. Yeah. Good to be back. Doing pretty well. 

Jala: pYeah. Yeah. So since the last time we convened, you have started a new podcast of your own, sir.

Adam: That is true. The Long Threatened finally realized podcast between me and my best friend from college Corey. And it is called Half Tone Takes. It is available wherever podcasts are found, and it is a a conversations show where we take turns interviewing each other back and forth both for the purpose of talking about media, which is something that we've always enjoyed doing, but also to get a deeper understanding of each other and our tastes in our opinions and our values.
So that's been really enjoyable to do.

Jala: Yeah, and it's also really fun, both of you guys, of course, because you've known each other forever, have quite wonderful rapport, so it is fun to listen to. So folks could def definitely take a look at that. That will be in the show notes, of course. So, Leonard, how are you doing today?

Leonard: It's fantastic to be back. I'm once again flaunting my geriatric millennial cred by providing these subject of today's episode. We last time I was on, we talked about who Fran Brock Rabbit, which is mm-hmm. An old movie. And now we're going to talk about a slightly less old movie by the name of Dick Tracy, that literally everyone on the planet has apparently forgotten exists.

Jala: Absolutely, and we will, we will get into all of that. But before we start talking about that, I do want to remind everybody about our coffee, so you can support this show by going to ko hyphen fi.com/fire hearted, and either dropping us a one-time donation or subscribing. And yes, coffee does in fact have paters just like Patreon, and there's extra stuff for subscribers.
So check it out. Any and all donations are given a shout out on the show and are greatly appreciated. You can also rate and review us on your podcasting platform of choice. It gives me warm fuzzies to see each and every one of them. Okay. Admin's over, we can talk about this Dick Tracy movie now. Mm-hmm.

Adam: So, and what a movie it is.

Jala: Yeah. It's a 1990 American action crime comedy based on the 1930s newspaper comic strip by Chester Gould. And it's directing and starring Warren Beatty written by Jim Cash and Jack eps Jr. A writing duo that also did Top Gun in the Secret of my success in this movie. And then for all intents and purposes, I could not find anything else really that they wrote that was significant after that.
That was like it. Mm-hmm. So the soundtrack to this was done by Danny Elman. For the, like, for the express reason that he also did the soundtrack for the Batman movie. And when they were making this movie, they wanted to have those overtones. And if you listen to the soundtrack with that in mind, you will hear that Batman kind of feel in it.
Yeah.

Adam: Th this is an exceedingly Danny Elman score.

Leonard: Yeah. So my first note in my list of notes when I rewatched this movie the second time was Warren Baby clearly told Danny Elman to create legally distinct Batman score.

Jala: Yes,

Adam: absolutely. Yeah. And the Batman movie 1989. So this is coming out one year after that.
Yep. It, the, the comparisons are undeniable.

Jala: Yeah. And, and it's so weird because like the tone of this is not the 89 Batman at all. Mm-hmm. But they still have like some, some definite feels from the way that they do the score for this. But then they also throw in original songs by Stephen Sondheim, which mm-hmm.
They have like some great flavor that we all, I think unanimously enjoy particularly Leonard. Yes. Yep. So I'll go ahead and let the listeners know that Leonard treated us to an original recording of the main song more. And that was absolutely fabulous and I love

Leonard: it. I love that song so much, literally ever since I suggested that we do Dick Tracy as the topic for a Jaw Chan's place episode I I, I've been practicing that rendition of more so that was happening way before I even showed up to Texas to marry you and Dave.

Jala: That is so good. That is so good. Well, it turned out so great that I definitely am gonna keep it on my phone and I don't know.

Leonard: This is surprisingly a, a super late wedding gift to you and Dave, in fact. Aw.

Jala: Well, I absolutely love it, and I did also let Dave listen to it, and he, he had a lot of fun with that too.
He would, and then immediately after that, he was just humming the holding thing, and I'm like, you're gonna be driving me nuts with that now, aren't you?

Leonard: I'm sure Dave had a big smile on his face. Yes. Knowing that his weird, creepy cohost did a big sunheim and number four for his wife and him.

Jala: Oh, he loved it.
He absolutely loved it. He didn't think it was weird and creepy at all.

Leonard: Oh, no, no, no. I'm not saying that my song was weird and creepy. No, I'm weird and creepy and it's, you're not, oh, you're so, you're

Jala: lovely.
So, so, yes.
So the production company for this was Touchstone Pictures and it was distributed by Buena Vista Pictures. So the main cast for this movie, of course, Warren Paddy. Mm-hmm. Al Pacino, who is like the only one that matters as Big Boy Caprice. Then there's Madonna as Breathless Mahoney. Glen Headley as Test True Heart and Charlie Cormo as the Kid.
Now, fun fact, they were trying to get Macaulay Hogan to play the Kid, and I'm so glad that they didn't. Yes, McAulay Hoen turned it, McCauley Co Cogan turned it down in order to do the Home Alone movie. But the lady who plays Kevin's mom in the home alone is actually around that table during the conference scene with Big Boy Caprice and has a

Leonard: cameo.
Kathryn O'Hara showing up, doing work, not seeing the line, but I'm like, oh man, it's still like Lydia Diet's mother, but it's, it's just Catherine O'Hara. Yep. Yeah.

Jala: Yep.

Adam: So may, maybe I'm jumping the gun. You know this is a good cast and we're gonna talk about them in general. I am specifically glad that they did not.
Go with Macaulay Caulkin because I think that this kid is like, really quite good. I've got a chip on my shoulder about child actors and there've been a, I've been on a couple podcasts where I'm just like, I just hate kids. I just hate these kids. Excuse me. This is a good kid. This is a good, good little performance.

Jala: I agree too. And I actually, I meant to go look up and see like has, has, what has he been doing ever since this movie, but like yeah, he is a really good fit and I like him as the kid much better than I would've liked McAulay Culkin. Mm-hmm. I'm really glad that they had this Charlie Cosmo play, this kid.
So, absolutely. So this movie boxed 162.7 million against a budget of 46 million. They were actually expecting the producers wanted this to be like the kind of production that Batman was, and I don't know where they got off thinking that channeling Dick Tracy in 1930 newspaper comic was gonna pull in as much money as Batman, which was a com.
You know, like a newer comic that was actually popular with people of all ages. Like I don't Dick Tracy as a comic wasn't something that I grew up with. Like, I grew up with Batman and I had Adam West Batman and all this other stuff, but I didn't have really any exposure to Dick Tracy. I know there were like old TV shows and old movies and things, but.

Adam: I mean, this is very similar to, to like you know, a, a movie producer being like, guys, we got the IP that the children crave. That's right. The Prince Valiant movie is coming to, right.

Leonard: So, so, hey I'm gonna provide my perspective as a geriatric millennial because that is a thing that I'm going to be saying frequently during this podcast. I appreciate

Adam: you handing out Werther's originals before the show.

Leonard: I Oh man. Listen, you melt, you melt some of those in some cream and you su got some good Delta Deli.
I'm, I'm just saying. So I saw this movie in theaters when I was eight years old. Me too.

Jala: I'm as old as

Leonard: you are, Leonard. I know. Oh, I know. Well, let's see. See, here's the problem. I'm so used to literally being the oldest old man in the room that it is weird for me. It feels like Highlander. Like I have to fight the other 40 year old in the room room because there can be only one.
So just

Adam: keep

Leonard: end of sentence. Yeah, keep that in mind. So I love this movie as a kid and the only reason I have a source of reference for Dick Tracy period is a via old Loony tune cartoons, specifically Daffy Duck cartoons, where he would go on into a fugue state and be Dick Tracy fighting the Dick Tracy monsters.
So that's the reason why I even know what Dick Tracy is. It's a, it's literally a thirdhand account.

Jala: That's great. I did not know anything about the original Dick Tracy when I was eight, and I watched this in the theaters, but I loved it and I, what I loved about it was, I loved just how amazing the. Makeup effects were like the artistry of the movie, like the lighting, which was color lots and lots of colored lighting.
Right. Which, you know, you don't see as kind of like out of vogue at this point in time. But during that time it was way more in use. But especially like everything that they chose, they chose those vibrant colors that mirror what newspaper comic panels use. You know, like what old timey comics use, where it's like this bright, vibrant green with red, with, you know, purple in the background and stuff like that.
And So like, it, it really evokes a, a time period and, and you know, like, just like the look of a newspaper comic, especially with all of the makeup effects, all of just like the practical effects of what they did with the makeup application and the prosthetics to make all of these characters larger than life.
I mean, like when you get to flat top and you're like, wow, his head is really, really flat. And then you see whatever, like little, the little face guy, I

Adam: forget what

Leonard: his little face. Little face. Little face, yeah. Little face. Literally like is Yeah. Is my favorite thing in the universe. Because my, so I love this movie because it's like, hey, all these mobsters, they're real gross freaks.
And we're gonna lean into that super hard. There, there's There's a term and it's stylized. This movie is hyper stylized. This is is the precursor to the wachowskis speed racer kind. Totally.

Adam: Like I, I love to talk about stylized films and like how they show up like once a decade and then people like talk about them and gets some buzz and then no one pursues in that direction again.
Yes. Until you get, you know, another once in a decade film. It is weird to me. So you guys were talking about though, seeing this film when you were. Eight. I also saw this movie at 8:00 AM this morning.

Jala: Well, I'm glad that it's, it holds up enough that when you watched it for the first time in 2023, that it's still, you know, a good freaking movie. I, I had a

Adam: great time with it, and it absolutely deserves to be in the conversation with these very stylized films. You know, your Sin Cities, your 300 s, your Speed racers you know, even

Jala: now you're Bunraku.
That's a weird ass movie we're gonna be talking about in that fall.

Adam: Yeah. So and, and you know, you talked about you know, oh, we're, we're, we're a newspaper. We're film producers and we're gonna get Dick Tracy on the screen, and that's gonna do Batman numbers, like the thing that. Is so wild to me about the obscurity of this movie.
The fact that it is not in the conversation in the same way that a speed racer or even like a Mad Max Fury road is, is that this movie was well received, made money and got three Oscars. Yeah.

Jala: Yes. Yeah it did. And like there was a quote from Pacino and one of the different things that I saw where he's just like, this is such a good movie.
It's a shame that like nobody knows it exists. You know? Cause nobody talks about it. Nobody talks about this movie anymore. But like, it made a lot of money. It was a blockbuster. And the reason why it faded out, we'll just go ahead and do a spoiler and, and talk about that a little bit, is basically it ended up in Wright's Hell right after this movie.
Yes. Mm-hmm. Because it was like a three-way fight between Warren Beatty, the people that he bought the rights from, who said that they were owed more money, and Warren Beatty's like, no, that wasn't how the contract was. And then Disney of course had to jump in, as you know, part of the producing. You know, company or whatever.
So, you know, it ended up being this terrible three-way fight that just went on and dragged on forever. And then like, we'll, we'll talk about it too, but like the, the, the weird Dick Tracy specials. We'll talk about that at the end after we've actually covered the movie. It's had like a weird kind of resurgence.
We'll discuss when we get there.

Adam: Yeah. Very strange moves in recent years.

Jala: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So insofar as this, this movie is concerned, it is definitely like a popcorn flick. This is not like high art that you're looking at, although like the prosthetics and the makeup and the music and the, the matte paintings we have talk about the,

Leonard: so the matte paintings, so they're so goddamn good.

Jala: Yeah. The artistry of the film is great. The writing of the film is popcorn movie. This is just like, you know, it's, I w I don't wanna say it's just like watching a Marvel film. This is better than that in my opinion. But it's still the same kind of popcorn flick where you turn your brain off and just watch the things on the screen happen, you know, so, I mean, but the, the, the writing is serviceable.
It is fine. It is fun. It, in the time that it first came out, it was given a lot of flack because people expected this to have like this super strong emotional whatever, and then somebody even said, it's everything that's wrong with Hollywood, because they were talking about how it's so bombastic and, and bright and whatever.
It's emotionally impoverished. It's sacrificed the story in favor of the visual design. It's like, no, what are you talking about? This is a fine, this is mine, you know, is a fun movie. It's, it's based on a 1930 newspaper comic. What are you looking for?

Leonard: To, to which I say, Hey Tess, what kind of ice cream you got?
Peach and it's a little runny now, and I'm like,

Adam: Troy, for

Jala: sure.

Leonard: This movie is like retroactively, like the perfect internet, 21st century internet movie, because I'm just like, oh wait, peach was a thing back in 1990. Okay, cool. Good to know. Yeah,

Adam: I, I totally agree that it, like, it has modern sensibilities that I think w would probably be more appreciated now.
Yes. Maybe than when it came out. Yeah. But, but also, like, no one's brought it up yet. I feel like the, the touchstone that's almost too obvious to make is that this feels like such an air apparent to. Adam West Batman. Yes.

Jala: Yes, absolutely it does. Although like this doesn't have quite as many things that are just like goofy, funny, the way that Adam West stuff is, where it's like, oh, we fell out of a helicopter, and good thing there was a rubber convention.
Like, okay, you fell in a pile of rubber.

Adam: It's my favorite movie in the world. I mean, so good. It's

Jala: so good. But like this, this one's got like 30 seconds, no more Dick, 30 seconds. No more Dick. It's got some lines to it. Right? There are some parts that are funny, but like, you know, it's not quite like as in your face as Adam West, like,

Adam: it's not quite as in your face.
It's not quite as jokey, but like it is still an absurd movie. Yes. And there is still, you know, small face, the gangster. Absolutely. And, and it is played. Deathly serious. Yes. Which is the, the true secret to camp is like taking the absurdity at face value and just treating it legitimately. Yes. Yeah, like this, this, the, the camp in this is of a superb vintage that I specifically enjoy.

Jala: Well, and for me, I grew up watching Adam West Batman. I also loved film, Noah. I still do, obviously we talk about a lot of like Noah, detective fiction type stuff on this show. Yeah. But like I love this because it's like in the pocket for, oh, it's got like this weird, artsy, colorful whatever. It's got like the artistry to it.
It's got the detective story, and it's also got like the goofy, you know, as you say, like oddities that are played seriously in your face. Like, this is a fun, fun movie. So,

Leonard: Yeah, I, I mean, the fact that this movie actually has a mis a, a central mystery, a Dick Tracy movie has a central mystery to it in regards to the identity of a very important character in the narrative of the story is still really wild to me.

Jala: Yeah. Like, you, like, there's so much, so much of this movie is just very laid out for you. Right? But then, like, the main, main, like villain, if you will, that gets revealed at the end of the movie is just like, you know, like you, you go through most of the movie thinking, you know, pretty much how it's gonna pan out, right?
And then like, you get to the end and you're like, I was not expecting that. I was not expecting that. It's a great, it's a great, like, it's, it's not like Roger Rabbit in the, in the terms of like, there's a twist, there's a turn, there's like, you know, twists and turns at all the angles, but it does pull the rug out from underneath you at the end.
So, or at least in the last third anyway. Ja, is there something about

Adam: you inviting me and Leonard into films that came out right around 1990 that are stylish noirs that feature a villain at the end who pulls off a mask to reveal a surprise identity?

Jala: Yes. You figured it out. Let me remove my mask and, oh no.

Leonard: Well, Adam, to be totally fair, I was the one that suggested both Roger Rabbit and Nick Tracy. Oh yes. So was real villain.

Adam: It was you all along.

Leonard: I, yes. I I have in fact, Scooby doo you into believing that Jah was the villain the entire time. My God,

Adam: here

Jala: it is. We've just reenacted basically what happens in the, and that's great because Leonard also sang the song, which is, anyway.
Yes. Okay. Okay. Let's, let's get into what the actual plot of this movie is. So, It's 1938 and there's a street urchin that's only known as Kid that witnesses the murder of a group of mobsters by Big Boy Capri's Minions, flat, top, and Itchy. I never knew that guy's name was Itchy until like I watched it with subtitles.
Yeah. Adam, tell him Boss. Yes. That guy's laugh is so good. I love,

Leonard: I love that Itchy and flat top essentially sound the same, but because it's William Foresight as flat top, that's the guy that I'm looking at in every single goddamn scene of this movie. Mm-hmm.

Adam: Yeah. This introductory scene with the gangsters around the PO poker table is like the scene for showing off like the wacky prosthetics.
Yes. These are so fun and so goofy. Again small faces is such a highlight of the movie to me. And then also like, it felt like a real mission statement to be like, oh, like look at these characters, like these guys, like they put work into them, they've got personality, and then they're just. Instantly murdered.
Yeah.

Leonard: My, my note for this this cavalcades introduction is everyone's a gross freak and I love how hard the production leans into it.

Jala: Yeah. And if you look up what like the villains look like in the original Dick Tracy comic, they do, they look gross. Yeah. Really, really gross. So, yeah, like they definitely are, are playing too, like the comic origins of this and, and you know, it, it is very apparent that these people are, you know, they are not normal people who have some slight deformity or something.
No. They are like, like the guy with the little face has a head that is like, I don't even know how large we can compare that to, you know, those jumbo jumbo balls that you can find in like a Walmart that's are in like that PVC pin. And they're like so big that a little kid just can barely put their arms around half of it.
Like it's one of those, and that's like what the size of this guy's head is. And then he's got a little flat on the top. It's just wild.

Adam: He looks like in big trouble in little China. Yes. There's one of the three wins who like inflates himself and then explodes. It's like he stopped halfway through that.
That's exactly what he looks like. He's halfway through his animorphs trans transition.

Jala: Yeah. Yeah. It's something like that. So, so we see that all of these people who have all of this, these prosthetics that had all this makeup time and effort put into for this opening scene, they just get mowed down immediately.
And the kid who sees all of this happen ends up getting away and is alive and is fine, but then ends up getting caught by Dick Tracy when Dick Tracy and his girlfriend are going into a diner. And this kid is like running out, cause I don't know where they were at if they were at the diner, but anyway, he into a store or something and then like, kid runs out having stolen somebody's watch and then mm-hmm.
Dick Tracy runs after him cuz he's a detective. And so he follows him and, you know finds that, you know, tracks this kid down to his little shack out on the edge of town. And, you know, the, he, you find out that, oh, this kid was adopted by some guy and You know, is, is basically made to steal and doesn't even get anything to eat.
And Dick Tracy goes in there and gives him a lesson. And I love this scene because like the entire shack goes side to side when Dick Tracy, it's so good, is beating this guy up is so good cuz it's like under the quote unquote moonlight. But it's all obviously very staged and very stylized.

Adam: Yeah. A again, we're getting like you, you know, we have a little bit of a fight inside the cabin and then it zooms out and you have this enormous, gorgeous matte painting.
Yes. Mm-hmm. This super stylized landscape and then this like loony tunes little shack that's just like shaking back and forth. And the only thing it's missing are like big dust clouds with random fists like coming out of it to mm-hmm.

Jala: It's great. Yeah. Yeah. And then it, by the end of it, like basically Dick Tracy finally takes the kid and is like, well, I guess I'm gonna hold onto this kid with, you know, my girlfriend Tess and Tess, you take care of him.
I gotta go bye. And just like, dumps the kid on his girlfriend and leave. Cool.

Leonard: So, so there are two things that I want to talk about. First of off, I want to talk about Steve the Tramp, which is the character that Dick Tracy beats up in the shack who is basically proto Mar from sens City.

Adam: Oh, he's extremely Marv.
He,

Leonard: he looks exactly like Marv from Sin City. And I love that. And also second Tess is the best girl we stand. Tess. Yes, because she, she knows what she wants and she is also a very capable woman despite what happens to her in this film.

Jala: Absolutely. And not only that, but like, you know, she calls Dick Tracy on his bullshit.
Yes. And she, she's just like, yeah, whatever. And you know, like she doesn't put up with any crap from the kid. She doesn't put up with any crap from Dick. She doesn't put up with anybody's crap. She is, she's definitely a very cool character because, you know, like she's not a fighter type, but she's not a fighter type cuz that's just not what she wants.
You know, like you don't get the sense that it's, it's any intrinsic weakness or anything, which for 1990 is a big deal.

Leonard: Yeah.

Adam: She, she is very capable but not in a you know all capitalized strong female character kind

Jala: of way. Yeah. She's a supporting character, but she's like, you know, living her best life over there and she doesn't care about being in the spotlight.
Yeah. So, you know, that's why she's not in the spotlight cuz she doesn't wanna be the

Adam: end. I also just want to emphasize that this is a really excellent introduction to the character of Dick Tracy because he does all of his classic moves of being a terrible detective, which are just like, just chasing after people yelling at them and then busting in through doors and beating people up, and then just kidnapping children.
Like, this is, this is toe to tip, this is what he does, the whole movie. And it's something about like thirties detectives where everyone's just like, damnit Tracy, you gotta follow procedure. And he is just like, screw the rules, I'm just gonna, Do whatever, and it always works. It's very

Jala: funny to me. And also let us not forget that him dumping shit on a woman is also a very common theme because again, this is thirties, that's how the misogyny works.
He's always doing this shit. So at, at the very least, he does appreciate Tess, which is better than a lot of like noir style detective type guys. Mm-hmm. So at least he does appreciate her and recognize that she is very good and, you know, worth a lot, you know, in, in terms of like where he's at is, is not where what she deserves.
Like he, he gets that and that's good on him anyway, so. Meanwhile we skip over to the Club Ritz, where we see Big Boy played by Al Pacino taking down Lips, manless, taking over Lips, club Ritz and taking his girlfriend. So like they have a little exchange. You get to see Breathless Mahoney, which is played by Madonna, who's the Songstress.
You get to see those characters and how disgusting lips is cuz he's just sitting there with his gigantic like bass mouth eating oysters and like not stopping and it's just, The whole scene is gross. And that was very, very it stood out to me as a kid. And so like when he dies, when when Al Pacino big boys goons, kidnap him and then take him, and then he gets put in like the cement block and, and take into the bottom of the, the river or whatever, like, I was just like, oh, good.
That man was gross. Like, you know, I do not feel bad at all that this guy died.

Leonard: So, so I've got a lot to say about lips which is mainly that a, it's Paul Serino which is amazing. We are also inter introduced not directly to 88 Keys, who is played by Mandy Diego Montoya, Patinkin. From the Princess Bride.
Mm-hmm. And also like when Breathless does her song and sits at the table the like aura of, ugh, you are so gross. And I hate every moment that I have to spin with you while she's looking at lips, sucking down these oysters is, is a mood and a half. Yeah.

Jala: It, it

Adam: really is an incredible shot because like, to paint a word picture, if you've not seen this movie this man with these very gross he's got the INH look.
Yes. Yes he does. Yes he does. But he's downloading like one after another, mm-hmm. You know, let's say one oyster every three seconds. Yeah. He's got two plates in front of him. A waiter comes over, removes the two plates that are currently existing. And replaces them with two additional plates, and he's just able to seamlessly transfer from one plate to the next without missing a single beat.
My man eats probably 40 oysters in this, in the several in like the two minutes that he's on screen here. It's like, it's insane.

Jala: It is like the way that I have read about Mark Twain eating oysters when they're, like, he, he would stay in a hotel on the cal, like over in California and he liked this one particular hotel where a bunch of writers stayed because they had like free food there, Uhhuh.
So he would just eat all of the fucking oysters. And like, he would talk about it too. He would write about it and just be like, oh yeah, I ate so many oysters and it just reminds me of that actually.

Adam: Yeah. So but then also like to draw that 1966 Adam West Batman comparison, the fact that all of these like mobsters are often celebrity cameos.
It just has that feeling of like, oh, Vincent price's egghead in this episode.

Leonard: Yeah.

Jala: Well, and then too, you've got like Dustin Hoffman who plays mumbles and Nicky did it as a favorite to Warren Beatty and like, that's so good. There, there were a couple

Adam: shots of Dustin Hoffman's mumbles where he's like in the shadows or something, and I'm like, is that one half of the magician duo pen and teller?

Jala: So, yeah. So anyway, Tracy ends up interrogating big boy's. Big boy's goons about what happened to lips, but he gets nothing. So his only lead is breathless, who was the only person to witness what happened to lips. Mm-hmm. And Breathless is more interested in seducing Dick Tracy than testifying, which leads to Big Boy Walking Free.

Leonard: Yeah. I, I'd like to say that Breathless Mahoney only speaks in sexualized double entendres Yes. Through most of this film. And it's kind of amazing, honestly.

Jala: Well, also, here's a fun fact. Warren Beatty and Madonna were dating while this was being made. Yep. So and then like he, he ended up proposing to her, and then she was just like and so when she was kind of like and didn't give him a straight answer, then he was just like, it's a friendship ring that I gave her and then cut things off immediately.
Yep.

Adam: So, yeah. The way that good friends do. Yeah.

Jala: The way that good friends do

Adam: for sure. Yeah. She's not bad. She's just drawn this way. Mm-hmm.

Leonard: Literally,

Adam: This, this is the maybe the first movie that I've seen featuring Madonna as an actress. I thought she was pretty okay as like kind of the archetypical, fem fatal.
I thought she, she did better than I expected.

Jala: And you know, like, especially when you find out like a big reveal later in the movie about her you know, the way that she plays everything here makes even more sense cuz like, she already seems like okay, she is just like the pretty face who has to attach herself to men of power to get the things that she wants and needs because she is a woman in the 1930s and mm-hmm.
You know, only is, is subject to the whims of the guys. Well, that actually plays a bigger part than you realize later on when you, when you find out more about her. Yeah.

Adam: So so the, the, the next bullet point as far as the story overview goes to the next big plot point, but I think we got a camp out on after.
Big Boy played by Al Pacino has taken over this club. There is a scene where he's trying to get the girls to all rehearse a song and dance. And it is, he is wild.

Jala: It is so good because he's, he gets across how annoying big boy is and that he's all up in everything and he's gotta try to control everything.
And he hears Al Patino in all of his, his wild makeup doing the dance and like, you know, insisting and singing it and being like right there, like right underneath Madonna's nose. He is time.

Adam: He has micromanaging an entire room of people in real time and. Being absolutely insufferable and we, we have not specifically called out Al Pacino's performance here.
Yeah. It is big,

Leonard: it is a big performance. I'm, I'm, I, I might upset some listeners with, with the statement, but this is literally my favorite Al Pacino performance of all time. Yes. Cause he, he, like Warren Beatty, just let him do whatever the fuck he wanted for the entire runtime of this film. And it's literally magical.

Jala: Well, and not only that, but he had so much of a hand in how Big Boy is presented on the screen. He was the one who came up with the concept for the makeup and the makeup artist ended up taking the design from what Al Pacino decided. And made that the final version of the makeup for his character because the big boy Caprice in the original was just like a very large obese man.
And so, like in here, they changed it to being big boy because of like, he's got large hands in large feet, in large this and in whatever, and like changing how, how he's a big boy, you know? And like, just the way that the makeup looks makes him look like a little gremlin guy, you know? And it's so good.
Yeah. And it's not only that, but like, the way that Pacino, I don't know if this was the writing team or if this was Pacino, to me, it feels like Al Pacino did this had him just like quoting shit. It's misquoting shit. Cu feeling the entire movie. It's so, that's such

Adam: a good, that's such a big

Leonard: tick. Oh.
Oh, hey, guess what? That's like one of my favorite character affectations of all time, to the point that I literally quoted. Each and every one of his misquotes. And, and I'm gonna read them right now. Harray Yes. All's fair in Love and Business. Benjamin Franklin Law with order is as great a danger to the people as order with all Outlaw Jefferson.
The way I see it and Plato agrees with me is that there was is and then there is what we would like it to be. And my favorite is his last one. A man without a plan is not a man. Nche.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. Those are

Jala: hilarious. Yeah, my favorite individual big boy quote is like, these, there's so many that are very, very good. But my favorite one comes at the end of the movie where he's just like, I had a thought. I had a thought. I had a thought. It's coming. It's coming. It's gone. It's what is going on.
And this is just, it feels like Al Patino just riffing and just doing whatever. And it just, it, I don't know if that is, if that was written in the script or if he, he made that happen, but I really think it was him. It's, it's,

Leonard: it's magical either way. Yes, because like, it, like his performance is sublime because like, so we're doing this like It's not an audition, it's a like what, what's rehearsal?
Yes. It's a rehearsal for more the, the title, one of the title songs of the film. And it's so goofy with him, like pantomiming the dance routine and everything. And then after it's over the flip, the switch gets flipped and he's like, actually legitimately terrifying. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam: He, he, like, it is impossible not to have fun watching him.
And I, he, he is a big part of like the, the Adam West Batman Energy Yes. To me, mm-hmm. In this film. Yeah. Super, super fun.

Jala: Absolutely because like, you know, everybody else is playing it straight, but the way that Al Pacino is playing his character is above and beyond it's like off on a different plane.
And so like, he out shines to me every other performance. And it's not that the other performances aren't good, they're very good, but you know, Al Pacino is just so much, he just takes up the entire movie, you know? Yeah.

Adam: I, if everyone was his level of energy, it would be too much. Yes. But because it's, it's just him, he gets to, to really steal the show.
Yeah. Yeah.

Jala: Absolutely. So, Yeah. So are we ready to move on to the next bullet point of the story? Yeah, please. Yeah. So Big Boy then tries to unite all of the mob bosses under him into a corporation. He's trying to make it a big business out of this. So he knows that Tracy is going to stand in the way of this unification.
And so he gets his henchman to capture Tracy and try to kill him.

Adam: So in a hilarious Adam West Batman death trap.

Jala: Absolutely. So what happens at this point is like they capture him and they take him down to the bottom of, I think it was what his Tess's apartment complex or something, wasn't it?
It was like the basement mm-hmm. Of the apartment complex where she lives or something. And so the whole idea was, well, if he doesn't join us, you know, by this bribe, then. We are gonna, you know, she's gonna come home and see your dead body, you know, and so they tie him to a chair and then like break some kind of boiler or something so that it's like steaming over and gonna explode.
Mm-hmm. But then the kid who has been following Tracy, cuz he doesn't li of course, he's like a, a little scam and doesn't, you know, pay attention to stay here, do this thing, you know, has been following Tracy this whole time because he wants to help and actually does, he frees Tracy and they get out just in time before the thing blows.
And so, you know, saves Tracy's life at this point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that to me was really important when I was a kid, because at that time, that was before there were, like, there, there were the, the adventure movies for kids like The Goonies and stuff like that back in the day. But there weren't like movies like this where a kid actually has some kind of agency and this kid is a solid bro and he actually is doing stuff and you know, therefore is, you know, played like a serious character, not just like goo goo Gaga child over there, you know?

Adam: Yeah. He's he's not a mascot. He's a, a genuine part of the team. Yeah,

Jala: absolutely. And I love that fact. It made such a big difference for me. So after the 30 seconds, no more Dick, that's at the point where they, they say that and run away like that is just, that's one of my favorite parts too, is where they're like, 30 seconds, no more dicks, 30 seconds, no more Dick.
And they run away. Yeah. You tell em. Yeah. You tell them. They don't even wait to see if it actually blows up. They're just like, yeah, he's gone. Bye.

Leonard: So, so, so my favorite, I, I have a series of my favorite lines, which is big Boy Caprice. You dumb dick. Say goodbye to oxygen. You silly stupid cop is such a mood.
Yes.

Adam: I really love afterwards when they're, they're, they're ruminating on. The failure to kill him is just like, I gave you guys a job and you flunked. That makes you flunkies.

Jala: Yeah. And he's like, I'm, I'm looking for generals and what do I have? Foot soldiers, foot soldiers.

Leonard: And, and I love it because it's a shot, reverse shot of like Al Pacino as Big Boy, just like.
Fuming and then you cut to the shot of like itchy numbers, flat top, and what is it? One other, and they're all in tuxedos and it makes the prosthetics even wilder to look at because they're all like freak monsters, but also well groomed at the same time.

Adam: Yeah. And, and frequently these suits are the brightest red possible, you know?
Yes. The brightest purple possible. And they look great.

Jala: Yeah. Well that one particular line, you dumb dick is so good because he's saying you dumb detective. Yes. You dumb dick. Like you were a a dick. You, you dick. Mm-hmm. But then also his name is Dick. So like it's a three A triple entendre. Yes. You know, like so many things going on with that one, that one line.
It's so good. It literally

Leonard: feels like Warren Baby was like, haha, M p a a, trying to make this not a PG movie.

Adam: Yeah.

Jala: Absolutely. So after that fails and everything breathless ends up going to Tracy's apartment to seduce him. And I don't know, does she just like walk up the stairs in underwear and like a, or does she have like a coat on also?
Oh,

Leonard: Well man, she has so many outfits. The I'm, I'm, I can only remember the one that she wears when she goes to the police station, which is the fur collar and cuffs one where she splays out in front of on his desk. But like that is so funny. Yeah. But like all of her outfits are actually kind of immaculate.
And I'm like, man, these clothes rock.

Jala: Yeah, they do. They do. Like, she's stylish and she's sexy and she does not, she's not like, yes, she's using it when she's like talking to Tracy and stuff, but otherwise she is just existing. Mm-hmm. And she's just existing the way that she wants in her terms. And I like that.

Adam: Well see, that's largely that. That is true. And then she's just like, well, I want something from Dick Tracy. So she just starts crawling on his desk and just like, yes, punching her back. And it's just like, what even is this gambit? Like, well,

Jala: the thing is she knows it'll fucking work because everybody's gonna underestimate her thinking she's just a dumb bro.
You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But, but

Leonard: mm-hmm. Oh, I was gonna say, but my favorite thing about it is that like Dick Tracy is kind of like Goku in that it seems like he doesn't know what sex is. So whenever, whenever she's sexual with him, he just looks confused almost the entire time. Yeah.

Jala: Well, to me it's like Warren Beatty's, like, this has got a PG rating, fellas.
He's gotta be a standup guy and just look like. Yeah. You know what you can do for me, you can confess, you can testify, you know? Okay. You know, so, yeah. So, yeah. But he ends up allowing her to kiss him and it's just then that Tess and the kid come back and they're holding the ice cream, and that's when that whole peach, peach flavored ice cream thing comes into play.
Yeah.

Leonard: Mm-hmm. So I love, and I love that Tess is like, oh, this, it like literally is like, this motherfucker really this long. How long, how long has this been? Really? This is what's happening. Cool. I gotta deal with some stuff now that I know that this is the man that I'm dealing with and I'm gonna be out of the picture for approximately 35 minutes dealing with my own shit.

Jala: Yeah. She's like I'm gonna go bye. And you know, she, she deuces out, leaves the kid there with Dick Tracy and, you know, she goes to her mom's house out of town to just go and, and sort her shit, you know? Yeah.

Adam: So, and, and the whole time that the, the kid is with them, like, there's the threat of him being taken away to the orphanage as well?
Yeah,

Jala: yeah. We didn't mention that, but yes, that, that is you know, the orphanage will eventually have to take the kid or the, the orphanage you know, is calling or whatever, and you know, like that's constantly the thing that's looming over them. And the kid, of course does not wanna go to the orphanage and they don't really actually want to take him to the orphanage either.
So, you know, they're just trying to delay that as much as possible. So, yeah. Moving right on. After that, Tracy ends up leading a raid on Club Ritz as a cover to allow one of his men to bug the phone. And so like Big Boy is confused because he is like, Hey, he didn't take anything. He didn't search, you know, search around or anything.
That was weird. So anyway big Boy ends up finding the bug because like isn't his name like Bugs literally gone out? His name

Leonard: is the, the guy Manning the Bug is named Bug. Yes. His

Adam: name is Bug. And he has enormous ears because he's so good at listening to things. Yep. It's

Jala: great. Yeah. Yeah. And so like he's got

Adam: his, before he gets captured, like we get another musical montage.
I don't think we mentioned it, but this movie has like four separate. Musical montages. Mm-hmm. It really loves that as a, a narrative device, but it's just Dick Tracy going around beating the shit out of goons while we keep getting like cuts back to Big Boy as he goes. Ah, yeah.

Jala: Yeah. And there's a bunch of newspaper headlines that are like, big Boy loses again or whatever.
Tracy Trumps whatever, and there's all these newspaper headlines showing that number one time has passed. And number two Tracy keeps on foiling all of big boys' plots. Yeah. And

Adam: number three, that we are dealing with an incredibly irresponsible press.

Leonard: Yes. My, my, my favorite, my favorite shot in this entire montage is the last one where mumbles comes with a big satchel, flips it over and a single dollar falls out.

Adam: I really love the one where there's like a. Eight separate goons all facing Dick Tracy. And then he makes one punch and he beats up all of them. They all go flying back. It's some Dragon Ball Z ass

Leonard: shit. It's, it's literally if, what if Dick Tracy was a bowling ball and these are all pins.

Adam: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
It's great.

Jala: Yeah. It feels like a lot of the, the kind of Batman type action that they wanted to do mm-hmm. Ended up in all these montages instead of mm-hmm. Being like actually played out on screen during dramatic moments of the film. You know, like that, that doesn't seem to happen so much in this movie.
It's not like, yes, there's action that happens, but it doesn't feel like an action movie, you know? Right. Yeah. So, So, yeah. But eventually while Bugs is up there, there's like a roach crawling around and he's got his cup of coffee. I don't know where he's getting coffee from up there, but Okay. And he tips his coffee cup over and it spills down.
And then that's when Big Boy realizes that there's somebody bugging, you know, tapping the phones and listening in or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. And so they end up using that cop guy and uses him as bait to lure Tracy into a trap out in like, some warehouse on the docks or something like that.

Leonard: Yeah, this is this is the same warehouse where Big Boy uses the bath to get rid of all of his op op opposition.
And I love that it's just called the bath because it's literally the most nightmarish way to murder another human being, which is cover them in cement and then drop them into the ocean.

Adam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's got like that, like late eighties, early nineties, like casual, horrific thing. Yes. That in children's movie.
Yes. Like, I'm thinking of like, oh, it's the Goonies. We're gonna stick your hand in a blender. Or like, oh, it's hook the boo box. Like, it's that kind of like, Ooh.

Leonard: Oh, I don't like that. Oh, the boo, the boo box. Featuring, featuring another bit of stunt casting, which is one of the male pa pirates is in fact Glenn Close.

Adam: Is that true? Yes. That's hilarious.

Jala: That's awesome. So, so Dick Tracy is cornered by these goons in this warehouse, and they have him, they are about to take him down, but then the blank appears, which is a person in a trench coat with no face and yeah, big Slender Man energy. Super slender man, but like with a fedora, which is great.
And a trench coat. Well, actually,

Adam: actually what it is is the question from DC comics. Yes. Yeah,

Jala: yeah, it is. So anyway, this character appears and then saves Traci at the last possible moment, but then drugs him and then frames him for the murder of the corrupt district attorney, which the blank lures to a hotel by using like Dick Tracy's handwriting, having somebody forge Dick Tracy's handwriting and say, I've got stuff on you, blah, blah, blah.
And then puts Tracy in the chair, kills, kills the guy, and then, you know, has this whole setup. So that way Tracy is found waking up with a gun in his hand just at the time when the police come.

Adam: I really love I believe it's 88 keys. Yes. Who is. The, the accomplice and this, and he's literally got a script and he is just like, you Dick Tracy are threatening me.
The district attorney with a gun. Yes. I'll never do what you dick Tracy say. Even if you shoot me twice. Bang bang. Yep.

Jala: It is so good because he is absolutely. And I was gonna say too the, the 88 keys guy, the who is the piano player at the club Ritz Yeah. Is also used by the blank earlier in the film to get a message over to Big Boy offering, Hey, I will off Dick Tracy for you for X amount of money.
And you know, if you do that, then you know, I'll guarantee that Dick Tracy will not be in your hair anymore. Yeah. And at first Big Boy is like I don't need to pay attention to, to you. You're just the fucking piano player. Go away. You know? Yeah, yeah. And dismisses him until all the montage happens.
And he gets stymied so much that he's like, you know what? Okay, fine. Okay, fine. You take care of Dick Tracy for me. And then that's where the blank does all of this in order to get rid of Dick Tracy in order to get paid by Big Boy. Yeah. So, yeah. And then big Boy's business begins to thrive and we get a montage of that too.

Leonard: Man, back in business is an absolute Bob, and I love this song so goddamn much. I'm like, man, this is, This is what I'm going to listen to, to get through my day when I'm at work, and I'm really, really bored.

Jala: Yeah. It's a very, very fun song and like, you know, just the visuals and everything and how Al Patino plays it up.
Yeah, it's, it's just great. This

Adam: is a montage that's basically like two solid minutes of people holding like cartoon sacks of money and throwing their heads back and laughing. Yes. It's great.

Leonard: You, you, you've got the elderly frequently being threatened. And then my favorite shot, which is horrible Gremlin Goblin Al Pacino Big boy Caprice dancing on a Table, which is literally the funniest thing I've ever seen in my fucking life.
So, They had

Adam: so much fun making this. Oh, yes,

Leonard: you can, you can just tell that, that every, oh, I, I, I forgot to mention this. During the boiler scene when Big Boy is trying to bribe Dick Tracy with the, the stack of cash. Yeah. Like he delivers his line in such a way that William ForSight as a flat top totally breaks during the scene.
And they keep, and they keep the shot in the movie. And I'm like, that's actually kind of amazing.

Jala: Mm-hmm. It's so good. So the blank has also at this point also does end up kidnapping Tess from Tess's mom's house, or like, I think isn't No, Tess is coming back Yeah. To the city and then ends up getting caught by the blank who ends up kidnapping her and then the blank then takes Tess and then drops her in Big Boy's club.
Yeah. So thus framing Big Boy for kidnap of, you know, the kidnapping of Tess. Yeah.

Adam: So the one crime that he didn't do, he

Leonard: didn't commit. Yeah. Yeah. It's my, it's my favorite joke. It's one of my favorite jokes of the entire movie, which is, Hey, guess what? You're gonna go to prison for? Literally the only crime You didn't come in.

Jala: Yeah. Yeah. And so Tracy ends up being released by his cop friends because they know that there's like, everything is going rampant and all of his cop friends believe in him. Which sounds like cops so uhhuh. Anyway so, so he is released just in time to interrogate mumbles. And then he ends up appearing in the middle of a gunfight at the club.
And then the cops are like killing or arresting all of big boys, men cuz they're doing this like operation to find Tess.

Adam: Yeah. So when we say that like cops show up at the club, we're talking like a blues brothers amount of cops. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It is an absolute circus car, just like police everywhere.
And then they start having this shootout and. It, it goes on for a long time. These are irresponsible cops. There's a lot of crossfire. Yes, there's a lot of collateral.

Leonard: Yeah. My notes, my, my note literally just says everyone dies. Yeah. Yeah.

Jala: Pretty much. Cuz then, like, you've got all of the, the little goonies, you know, goons coming out of the club and then they're just like, you know, shooting everybody.
And then like, they're all slowly getting picked off until they're all gone and it's just big boy

Leonard: until they're all gone and their cars have exploded with them inside of it. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is like one of the most violent, non-violent shootouts that I've ever seen in my life. Because if there were squibs involved with any of this, this would not fly for children.

Adam: The line between this and Sin City is not that big. No, it's

Jala: not. It is not. And you know, like I, after we talked about Roger Rabbit, I was like, oh, we need to talk Dick Tracy for sure. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, like later on I do wanna talk Sin City and I do wanna talk Buku, which is another weird one that was influenced by Sin City.
So like, Keep in mind those will be on the roster for later on. But yeah. So at this point in the middle of all this crossfire, big boy is like, holy crap, what are you doing here? I didn't kidnap you. And Adam, do you wanna talk about this part?

Adam: Yeah. This is, this is maybe my favorite sequence Yes. In the movie.
So Big Boys got her, and the whole time he's just repeatedly just being like, gotta emphasize, cannot emphasize enough. I'm not kidnapping you, you're not my kidnapping victim. We do have to go, I've got a fucking gun and you will listen to me. Let's go. And so he takes her through this series of secret tunnels and stuff, you know, through the fake wine cabinet, and then down into this little thing, and they get onto this like, fucked up little sled.
Yeah. It, it's like the, the thing that it reminds me of is like, oh, the, this is like the, the mine cart section in Michael Bees, the Rock. And you're like, why are we in a, a mine cart level all of a sudden? But here we are. He's got this like little like goblin sled that he's like going through this tunnel.
And the whole time he's just got this endless stream of conscious like Popeye mumble Yes. Where he is just like, and he's just like going on and on and he delivers my favorite line of the movie when he's you know, on this sled. And he's just like, you know, I wants to kidnapping you now I'm kidnapping you.
Does art imitate life? Does life imitate art? Who knows?
And it's just part of this long, just like endless mumble of him. Like the note that I wrote is that he's an idiot philosopher who could only speak in tortured metaphor and like mal props, like misappropriated quotes. So

Leonard: funny. My, my favorite, my favorite part is when he's dragging Tess into the secret entrance into the, in the wine room.
And he's literally like, ah, pain, pain. People learn from pain. Don't make me push you.

Jala: Yeah. Well, and then too, like, she's just like, Hey, easy. And she does not look scared, let us say No. She does. She just looks like, oh my God, shut up. Like the whole time she's just over it. She is so over this guy in his BS like, she is just not here for it.
She's gotta go along with it. And she's like, God. Why mean?

Leonard: I, I just wanna, I, like, I, I adored the psycho, I love the psychology of Big Boy at this moment, which is, yeah, he's a nightmare, murderous criminal monster. But the idea that he is going to be framed for literally the only crime that he didn't commit causes him to have a nightmarish nervous breakdown while dragging his poor hostage along with him.

Adam: Yeah. He doesn't react well to being under pressure. Yes.

Jala: Yeah. Well, cuz he's so used to being in control of the situation and he's not here. He doesn't have any like, you know, extra thing in his pocket to get out of this one. You know, like mm-hmm. And, and also, may I say that his goblin cart and the fact that it shoots out into like this, this, this nowheresville over by a bridge or whatever, just reminds me of like Batman Bat, bat Cave.
Yes. Yes. He's got Bat Cave energy. The fact that he's got like secret entrances, oh, he just took this club over from lips. Does that mean Lips had this or did he build this industriously like during his reign of terror? Like, you know, it questions, I don't even know. So, so yeah, he ends up dragging her along to like this bridge out outside of the city and he ends up tying her to the gears.
And you know, like Dick Tracy follows him out there and then he's threatening Tracy and he's like, you see that watering can, cuz there was like a, a can or an oil can or something and it just like gets crushed in the gears and he's like, that's gonna be her head, you know? And he's trying to, to deal with Tracy.
He's not wanting to shoot him necessarily. He's just like wanting to make a deal for his, you know, freedom. You know, no

Leonard: more hair to fondle, no more ears is what?

Jala: Yes. His lines are so good. Like we can't stress enough, like whatever it is that Al Pacino is doing here, whether it had been scripted or on his own, it, it's

Leonard: just great.
It's, it's art. It is literally art.

Jala: Yeah. Yeah. So the two of them are sitting there and like staring each other down and talking about, you know, Tess and everything until the blank appears again and holds both of the two of them on at gunpoint at this point. Mm-hmm. So right about that point when, you know, the blank is there, he ends up the, the blank ends up offering the city to Tracy, I'll give you part of the city after Big Boy is dead and then the kid pops up because of course the kid has been everywhere.
The kid goes everywhere in the

Adam: diction, does constantly hanging onto the back of police vehicles. That's his like, number one trick. Yeah,

Jala: absolutely. And it's like you are so lucky that they don't go that fast at this time period. Child.
So So anyway this kid pops up and then like distracts the blank by like, what? Knocking into him or throwing something. I don't remember exactly what he does. The kid

Leonard: literally just tackles the blank. Okay. To the ground. Literally

Jala: tackles the blank. Okay. Yeah. So then Big Boy ends up grabbing the gun and then shooting at the blank before Tracy then throws big boy off of a bridge to his death.
And it is like the, the most footnote of a death, I think, in this movie, like of a man character. And he just gets like, shoved off of the railing and just bows down. And then that's the end of that. He, he gets

Adam: thrown into the, like the, the central reactor of the death star. Yes. As part of building this drawbridge, they were like, well, don't forget the bottomless pit.
Yeah.

Jala: And it's just this, this wild, wild, like, you know, yes, you see him drop, but like, There's not really any preamble leading up to it. It's just like this quick thing that happens and then he's falling to his death. I don't know.

Leonard: The only reason why I remember this death is like, oh man, you did not spend a lot of money on that dummy that you threw over this.
Really?
It is. It is. The dummies dummy, like they slapped Al Pacino's pro prosthetics onto a crash test, dummy in a fat suit, and then threw it over a railing, and they were like done. Nailed

Adam: it. Shoots over first track.

Jala: Well, it's kind of like. And Kindred the embrace that old, old TV show that was based on you know, vampire the Masquerade.
Mm-hmm. The first episode there is like a vampire who is like, the sun is coming up and it fall, you know, the, she falls from, you know, some height into the water and like catches on fire and like mm-hmm. The burning body that's falling is so cheap and crappy. It's so silly. So silly. And it reminds me of that actually.
But that came later. So, I mean,

Leonard: I've become a connoisseur of the Bad Death Dummy. Yes. So this worked for me on a lot of levels as an adult and I was like, yep, that's what I wanted actually.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm a big fan of the, the not very good looking gummy stunt. That's very funny to me.

Jala: Yeah, I mean if it was more convincing, looking and actually look like Pacino falling down there, it wouldn't be quite as fun and it wouldn't, I don't think, match the tone of this movie as much, even though there are a lot of people who die in this movie.
Like, it's so gooby and weird. It's like, you know, it it, the, the dummy being goofy looking too just makes sense to me. Yes. So yeah, the blank ends up being revealed to be breathless Mahoney. So it was the Songstress all along who everybody thought that they were playing her and she was just like subject to the whims of all the men, but actually she was controlling crap herself from behind the scenes this whole time.
And you know, like maneuvering stuff so that she could take over the city actually. And she's dying because she was shot. And so she ends up kissing Tracy and then dying in his arms. Can

Leonard: can, can I talk about like, my favorite part of this reveal, which is a that the weird no feature face mask Also had a was balding.
And had hair. And B, when she starts to talk to Dick Tracy, she's still doing the voice Yes. And has to switch back. Yes. Like, yeah, I knew you. I, I like I never planned on doing this. Yes.

Adam: Yeah. It sounds like for all the world that she should have like a voice modulator or something that's like filtering her voice, but no, like Madonna's just in front of a mirror practicing.

Leonard: Like, I, I, I, I love to imagine that like she was able to pull it off simply because she's a singer and she's like, yeah, I know my range. I know what I can do. Yeah. I only need to talk to these people for five minutes unless I ruin my voice for tonight's performance.

Jala: Yeah. Yeah. So, and even at the end, she's just like, my, my one mistake was you, you know, cuz that's, that's how she slipped up is, is in, I, you were

Adam: right.
I couldn't shoot you.

Leonard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, were right. I couldn't shoot you.

Jala: Yeah, yeah, indeed. So, and then at the end too, she's just like, you know, if, you know, admit it, do you still, you wanted me, right? Because she'd been asking him this whole time and he just kind of like stares at her and she kisses him

Leonard: and then he is like, back to my alive girlfriend. Hey honey, happy New Year.

Jala: Yep. Yep. And then all the charges are dropped against Dick Tracy because the, everything was revealed. And then Tracy eventually proposes to test sort of like, you know, he does the, he throws

Adam: a ring vaguely in her direction.

Jala: I know. And it's like, hopefully she can catch this. Luckily she's, she's pretty, she's got some good hand eye coordination here, so Yes.

Leonard: I saw her with a baseball and a trash can earlier. She's got some good hand eye coordination. Yeah, right.

Adam: Dick, Dick Tracy is trying to propose to her. He's not doing a good job. And then he gets a call on his like little communicator watch. And then the kid does another one of his signature moves, which is like crime Yippy.
What? Who? Golly, milli Curse. Like, he's just like, kid fucking loves crime.

Jala: Well, I mean, to be fair, he perpetrated quite a bit before Tracy got ahold of him. So, yep. Tracy, let's go. Yeah. Every time. So, yeah. And the kid ends up taking the name Dick Tracy Jr. He got like a, a, a Valor award or something for saving Tracy's life earlier.
And in order for it to be a permanent certificate, he had to pick a name cuz he didn't have one. So he picked Dick Tracy Jr. And then he ends up probably being adopted, I guess by, by Tess and Dick Tracy. Since.

Leonard: Mm-hmm. We'll find, we'll find that out in the Dick Tracy sequel. That will happen in four years.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Dick Tracy, Jr. Will return,

Jala: I mean, like, if they get that guy back you know, as a full grown adult is the new Dick Tracy. I'd be down for it, actually, so.

Leonard: Oh yeah. Not, no lie

Adam: I could use a new dick, Tracy.

Leonard: Hi. I, yeah. As long as, as long as this, as long as a sequel is as ridiculously hyper stylized as this one, I will absolutely watch it.
Yeah, no problem.

Jala: Yeah. Yeah. So like this movie has a 63% rating at Rotten Tomatoes, an average rating of 5.9 out of 10 and a 68 at Metacritic. Which is wild to me because this is such a good movie.

Leonard: Too low. So too low. So I will say this I was really shocked to see it had a 4.4 out of five rating on Amazon Prime.
Ah. Which means that at least the people that are watching it on Amazon understand what this movie is trying to do.

Jala: Yeah. Right. So the reviews that I saw could basically be summarized at least from the time period that it came from as more style than substance in all of that. But a whole lot of the res retrospective reviews that I looked at, Say that this is a road not taken in comic book movies, specifically the use of masking paneling and page layout as visual elements not present in the Marvel Cinematic universe or DC extended universe.
And on top of that, like just the stylization of everything, like the fact that they are using these bright colors, they are using these, you know prosthetics and, and makeup effects and things like that to just give it like a, a better air, like a better feeling to me than just when they go all cg, you know?
Yes. Like when you have practical effects, they tend to be much more lasting. You know, like they have a, a, a more solid presence and they don't feel as dated.

Leonard: This movie has more split diopter shots than any movie I've seen in recent memory. There are like 10 different, very deliberate split diopter shots in it, and they're all.
Absolutely amazing. Like, ooh, ooh. Tell us what that is. Oh, a split diopter shot is, it's a very specific kind of lens that you put in front of your film camera that allows you to have people on different planes, but have them both in focus so you get a wide shot where everything is in focus, even though they are farther away horizontally from one another.
Mm-hmm. And this movie has so many of them, and I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God, it's been so long since I've seen a split diopter shot. Oh my God. There are so many split diopter shots in this movie. I love it. It makes me happy in my brain plays.

Adam: Yeah. I, I believe that that's a, a camera trick that was if not innovated with but like, made famous by Citizen Kane.
Yes. And Like on, on top of those, they also have a lot of shots where it's like, here's a foreground element that we've deliberately cut out and really specifically composed in order to frame the shot exactly like we want it to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and yeah, like a lot of the cinematography and the camera choices are really delightful

Jala: to me.
Yeah. Yeah. This is definitely, it feels like way better produced and considered in a lot of ways than a lot of other comic book movies I have seen. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So in that way, like that's what stands out to me. Just overall, just the artistry involved in this film is top-notch. Yeah.

Adam: There is very real craft.
And like the reviews of like, ah, it's more style than substance. Like, it's not going for, for a deep thing. You're correct. It's not going for a deep thing. It's going for this thing. I think it's really successful at achieving what it's set out to do.

Jala: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there is a novelization, I know that on Monster, dear Monster, Dave always talks about the novelizations.
So there is a novelization, but it's not worth the time to read it. Every, all of the reviews say that it sucks. So yeah, I just fyi, don't feel like you need to go watch or read the novel. It's not going to give you anything.

Leonard: So, oh, hey, just to, just to guild the Lilly on how great the cinematography is.
The Sy cinematographer for Dick Tracy is also the cinematographer for Apocalypse Now, so. Oh, okay. Wow, that's awesome.

Jala: Well, they weren't playing around when they found their people for this film, huh? No. So, yeah, the development of this film actually started in the early eighties, and I, I cannot say this man's name, Tom Monk Minowitz, I don't know who that is.
Assigned the role was assigned the role as script writer. And this was, again, later shifted to Jim Cash and Jack pps Jr. Who have the actual writing credits for it. This project also went through a whole bunch of different directors, Steven Spielberg, John Landis, Walter Hill, and Richard Benjamin.
Before Walter Beatty was like, I'll do it, but I'm only gonna do the directing if I also get to play Dick Tracy. Mm-hmm. And they didn't wanna let him be Dick Tracy, because he was 50 at the time. And they were like, you're too old to be Dick Tracy. And it's funny because when I was eight years old and I was watching this movie in the theater, I thought he was attractive.
And I like, thought he was the best. You know, he, he was exactly who needed to play Dick Tracy. Like, I, I couldn't have imagined anybody else being Dick Tracy. Like, yeah, I didn't, I, when I saw Batman in the theaters, 1989, Batman, I did not like Michael Keaton. Like he's a good actor. I didn't, I didn't never imagine him as my Batman.
Like, I, I never mm-hmm. Wanted him as my Batman. He's good actor. He's good in the role, but also he just doesn't look like how Batman does to me in my head, you know? But like for Warren Beatty, he is definitely Dick Tracy to me. So I, I don't think they could have found anybody better to do that, in my opinion.
But, you know, I'm biased. Yeah.

Adam: I, I think that he's a good fit for it. Like the, especially the like, oh, he's too old for it. Like, almost feels silly in our modern day when we've got fucking 79 year old Harrison Ford running around on the silver screen once again.

Leonard: Yeah. Or, or when we have however old Helen Meen drag racing in a Fast in Furious movie, first of all.
Yeah.

Adam: Thank you. Yes.

Jala: Oh, I have to tell you, all this wonderful treat. So producers lobbied for former President Ronald Reagan to play the role of prune face. Hilarious. So like they would, and it's so funny because like, I looked at the side by side and I'm like, they really wouldn't have to do a whole lot of makeup, makeup to this man.
No. Like he already really looks like it without the makeup. I mean, that would've made their job easier. But Warren Beatty said, no, we're not gonna take the president and put him in this movie as a gangster.

Leonard: And, and, and, and I'm glad because the inclusion of Ronald Reagan in this movie would've actively made it worse.
Just saying.

Jala: Yeah. So, yeah, the exact quote from Al Pacino though was saying that Warren Beatty made a wonderful artistic film, even though now it's like, it didn't, doesn't even exist.

Leonard: He's, he's not wrong. He, he's absolutely not wrong in that assessment. Yeah.

Adam: I'm going to make it my personal mission to now be evangelical about this film and get some other people to talk about it, because I want this in the conversation.

Jala: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And like when we were talking about the Roger Rabbit film, I remember that I was talking about this to both of you and Adam. You were like, I've never seen it. And I'm like, oh, Adam, I think that you would really like this movie. Mm-hmm.

Adam: Mm-hmm. Correct.

Jala: I was like, oh, you have to come and talk about this movie because I just, I just need you to watch this movie.
So this was actually the highest grossing film of Warren Beatty's entire career.

Leonard: Wild. That nobody remembers that this movie exists.

Jala: I know, I know. And also, the Gangsters boardroom scene had an onscreen reunion between Al Pacino and James Kahn who played the Corleone Brothers in The Godfather, and they were both in the boardroom scene.
So that was very good.

Leonard: So good. And then he blows him up in the car, which

Adam: hilarious. Yes.

Jala: Yeah. Oh, and then here's, here's our tie in to the Roger Rabbit episode. The animated Roger Rabbit Short Roller Coaster Rabbit was released The Theatrically with this movie. It played before the movie started. I

Leonard: remember that actually.

Jala: Me too. I remember that cuz I saw it in the theaters. So it was, it was fun. But yeah, so what's interesting too is that Big Boy Caprice, the character was based on real life Mobster Al Capone. So, and it's also great because Al Pacino played the Titre Lu role in Scarface, which was a remake of, you know, the 1932 Scarface, which was based on Capone's life.
Yeah. So, You know, like that's some nice fun crossover and stuff like that. But yeah, let, let's get into like the legal stuff and the sequel talk. So yeah, Beatty was sued by the executive producers for profit participation. There was protracted rights battles between Tribune, media Services, Warren Beatty, and Disney.
But in 2010, Turner Classic movies aired Dick Tracy Special, where Warren Beatty as Dick Tracy had a retrospective interview about the film with Leonard Malon, which we need to take a minute and talk about this. Adam, you brought this to my attention before I found out about this in the Wiki.

Adam: First of all, this is weird.

First of all, Leonard Malon absolute institution of a weirdo love Leonard Malon. If you are unfamiliar with him he is a aficionado for film and animation. And if you watch like weird retrospectives and you know, behind the scenes stuff Leonard Malon seems to be involved in a majority of them.
And so yeah, for this stuff my understanding, I'm not entirely sure if it's true, is that this is about about rights and making sure that, you know, the copyright stays with the, the people who want it. And so they're like, we gotta make something. We gotta make a dick Tracy something. And so in February of 2023, Turner Classic Movies aired.
Dick Tracy Special. Tracy Zooms in where. Like, we've already done like a, a retrospective interview with Leonard Moton. Now it's just a Zoom call with Leonard Molten, which is just like so sad to me. It's

Jala: just like, Yeah. And, and the thing is, is that like the 2010 Dick Tracy special, it was so wild because they had Dick Tracy, just like, they played it as if Dick Tracy was a real person.
And like, you know, he drove up to the studio and then all of the ladies who work for the studio were like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And like trying to adjust their bras and stuff like to, to pump up their chest and, and like fanning themselves and stuff like that, trying to talk to him. Cause they're like, oh my God, this is Dick Tracy.
You know, and just all of this nonsense. It was so silly. And then like, there was that February was Tracy Zooms in Zoom call thing, like, wow. Okay. But yeah, in that, in that special, Warren Beatty was, you know, talking about, oh, Dick Tracy might be back in the future. You know, that kind of thing. Like, oh, there might be more coming sometime.
And Beatty had talked about wanting to make us sequel back in 2011. And he had even had ideas that he had mentioned vaguely to the press, even back in 1990 when he made the first film. It's just that it was again, in that rights hell for so long. But it's so wild that I had already been talking with you guys about doing this episode, and then in February of this year, suddenly there's another weird, you know, oblique thing that's like, there might be something Dick Tracy related in the future.
Like you, you know, we might get some kind of a show or some kind of a movie or something. We don't have any more information than that, but Well,

Adam: what makes that weird? Because if it was, if it was Warren Beatty, the human being being like, Hey, I think Dick Tracy's cool, I want to do more stuff with Dick Tracy.
We, I'm, I'm working to make more Dick Tracy happen. It'd be like, cool. But he comes in as Dick Tracy and he's like, I'm going to be back soon. I'm going to be in a sequel. And then like, walks away and, you know with a, with a cane. Yeah, he's

Jala: like what, 80, 80 something? 83, 80 something. I don't know how old he is.
But he's up there. He's up there in age. Yeah, for sure. So, so yeah, like it's just wild to me. But, you know, like Dick Tracy, like is something that is very near and dear to Warren Baby's heart. Like it must have been something that he used to read when he was little or something, because he's just so passionate about this thing.
But, mm-hmm. So, yeah. So

Leonard: I'm, I'm going to make the argument about the weirdness. What Warren Baby did is significantly less weird than what Fox I'm sorry. Yes. What Fox did when making the Fantastic Forum movie great. That never came out. The Fantastic four movie that did come out, the sequel to the Fantastic four movie that also came out, and the terrible reboot of the Fantastic Four to hold onto the right.
So if it, if it's making, it's, if it's wasting an entire production or having one of your principal actors do a zoom call, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a tour baby on the less sad version of holding onto the rights for a film property. Yeah,

Adam: I, I would, would love to just like watch a documentary or something about that specific thing about, you know, productions that were created not with the intention of ever making something worthwhile just for the, the reason of holding onto rights.
That, that is such a fascinating thing to me.

Jala: Yeah, yeah. It is so, so weird. But yeah, so I don't know if the reason why this movie just kind of like disappeared off the, the map was just because it was in Wrights hell for so long that there was never a follow up or what, because like, it's, it's interesting because usually when there's a movie, And it's a blockbuster hit, even if it's not that title in particular, it inspires a lot of other movies to, you know, be like alternate versions of that thing.
Right. But this one didn't. Yeah. There weren't any other like, stylish detective stuff that came out until you get to something like Sin City, which is weird, but like way later, you know? Yeah.

Adam: So the the wisdom that I have come to understand that, you know, this is me parroting smarter people's talks is that for like trends to get set in Hollywood, it needs to be a good production.
Like the actual thing needs to be good. It needs to be seen by a lot of people, and it needs to make money. And if you only have two of those things, then it's not going to take off. If it's seen by a lot of people and it makes a lot of money, but it's not good, then you know it's probably not gonna leave a cultural impact.
Mm-hmm. And same with any of the other combinations, like you really need all three of those in order to have something that gets perpetuated and quoted and, you know, ta brought into the, the larger cultural conversation. The thing that makes this so strange is that it seems like it largely did have that, and, and maybe that's me just saying like that it was good because I'm looking at this retrospectively, like people were much cooler on it upon release.
It didn't set the world on fire in that way, but like, again, this movie made money. Lots of people saw this, this won awards, this won three Oscars. That's three more Oscars than the Marvel Cinematic universe. It's crazy.

Jala: Right, right.

Leonard: I mean, I literally, I've literally carried visions of this movie since I was eight years old and I'm 40 now.
The fact that this, it doesn't exist in the zeitgeist at all, like seems manufactured to me in a weird way.

Jala: Yeah. And I can only chalk it up to just, maybe there wasn't enough like media talk, media attention on it, you know? And that like, again, the fact that it fell into rights, hell, like, if they had a sequel that followed this up, it probably would've set a trend, right?
But there wasn't a sequel. There was just this one movie and then the weird Dick Tracy specials, like, you know, several years apart from each other, like 20 years away from each other, that kind of thing. So, I don't know, like it's, it's a weird, it's a weirdo, you know, through and through

Adam: what we're trying to say is that the Dick Tracy cultural reevaluation begins now.

Leonard: Yes. Actually. Like, no, no, no shot actually, like, watch this movie because it's really good and really interesting and it is absolutely worth your time because it is wild that a, a production of this quality with this cast at is. Largely forgotten. Yeah. But Kurt, with this much

Adam: heart.

Jala: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

So yeah, like I think that kind of is our summary. Watch this movie. It's a good one. So yeah, we're on the internet. Can people find you, Adam? 

Adam: As said at the beginning, I now have a new podcast. It is called Half Tone Takes. It is available wherever podcasts are found. I think it's pretty cool.
Come listen to me and my best friend talk about media and also just have a, a great rapport and lots of laughs along the way. What the show eventually turns into is a lot of stuff about the reality of creative work and. The things that surround making art, making film, making media. So if you think those topics are cool, like there's a lot of overlap with what we talked about on this episode.

And as well, I am also an animator and independent game designer. So if you like tabletop games come check out some of my tabletop role playing games. They are found Bocher. That's Boo like ghost, Cherry like fruit dot itchio.

Jala: Yeah. And also when this episode drops on June the ninth, we will have also had an episode of Tales from the Backlog together, along with the host of that show, Dave Jackson.

So Tales From the Backlog is a video games podcast. And on that episode we are talking about Resident Evil 4 Remake. So if you did not already know about that and download that, definitely go check that out and check out Dave Jackson's show.

Adam: Yeah, that episode is also a lot of fun to record.

Jala: Absolutely. So long too. It's very long. Yes. Yes. So, Leonard, where could people find you on the internet?

Leonard: Yes, I unfortunately still exist in the realm, the cesspit that is current date Twitter. You can find me at, by searching @drfaustisdead. I post mostly retweets of bugs, fungus, deepwater fish, and occasionally actually send out a tweet.

And if you're interested in any of my video game essay work, you can go to YouTube and search for Dr. Faust as well. I haven't made anything in over a year, but I'm, I'm planning on something. I, I mean, I just finished my third play through of Persona five, a game that I can't stand. So I've been whittling my fingers down to the bone to convey just how much I deeply dislike that game.

Jala: I'm glad that you say that because I played, I don't know 20 ish hours of that game and I just did not get into it. Mm-hmm. And so I was just like, ah, everybody else thinks this is the best game ever. And I don't know why.

Leonard: Oh, it's not. Oh, it's got some problems and I'm gonna talk about 'em and I'm gonna be real salty about it too.

Jala: I'm excited. I wanna hear that. Let me know when that drops. Be sure to me. Yes. Yes. And of course I will have links to things in the show notes for everyone. As for me, you can find me anywhere. I may be found @jalachan, including jalachan.place, where you got this episode and all of the others. So that is all for now, folks.
Until next time, take care of yourself and remember to smile. 

Adam: Yeah, you tell him, boss!

Leonard: You dumb Dick!

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Jala
Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/Jala. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!

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