[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.29 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes, and today I am joined by Zombi (they/them). How are you doing today, Zombi? 00:14.78 Zombi I'm doing super How are you. 00:15.43 Jala I am here I am so glad that the people next door have stopped using the jackhammer they are redoing their foundation and it's been going all day and I'm like oh please do not anymore I can't take it. So. Yes, I am glad that that is over with and I am also glad to be recording I will say we were also going to have Briar from the intersectionality episode come on for this one as well. But unfortunately their internet decided to act up and. They are calling the internet police on them and getting a tech out there to see what's going on. So ah, we're not able to get on the episode for this time but they will be back in the future if you're not Briar Fenz so but for this episode we are. Nominally talking about engaging with masculinity. But as Zombi and I were talking in the green room. It kind of came up that it's like no actually I think we will talk about masculinity and engaging with it. But also we kind of want to sit with a concept that was brought up in the femininity episode about gender and identity so in the femininity episode which was episode number 11 we said basically all gender is made up. 01:37.87 Jala It's arbitrary. But for some reason it's really important to our identity when I stated this I stated this several times and nobody questioned it nobody expounded upon it. It was just like an assumption. Everyone said yes, this is correct and we moved on but that. Was always something that I wanted to talk more about and sit with and so this is the time and the space for that. Ah so here we are um, it doesn't matter if you are binary and you identify as a man or a woman or if you are gender fluid a gender. Gender does play a role in your identity and there's a bunch of different reasons. Why just to recap some highlights about what is gender in the first place from the last episode. It's something that changes over time according to your location. Your time like time period for example and also your culture because every culture has different cultural norms of gender and it also reinforces and teaches people their societal roles. As a matter of fact, our current at least in the west concept of gender formed in about the seventeen hundreds based on agricultural roles. So ah. 03:02.13 Jala Gender as a concept the way that we know it today and take it for granted in many cases when you live very strongly in a binary All of that is actually rather recent when it comes to human history. So um, that's like ah a recent concept and it was mostly um. The the church reinforced all of these notions as well. Which is how that gets so strongly tied into politics and ah religion and things like that where there's you know this strict binary. Um. And any case gender is something that is multidimensional. It can relate to physical aspects. You know, like um, what you physically can and cannot do or what you look like and domestic roles like when it comes to being caretaker of children and um. Parents and things like that occupation. What types of occupations. You can have what kind of knowledge you should have examples would be like well there's male nurses and female doctors. But. Most of the time when someone says nurse other people say oh how is she and when they say doctor people say oh what did he tell you so um, there's lots of assumptions made about occupation insofar as gender roles are concerned and then of course. 04:34.51 Jala Personality traits as well where you know if you are a soft-spoken and gentle and caring and empathetic Man. You are often considered to be effeminate etc and if you're a really aggressive female then you're suddenly a butch. So. In either case, that's like a recap of what we talked about previously. So Zombi. Do you have any ah comments about any of those things before we move on to the question about identity. 05:08.21 Zombi Yeah,, that's um, definitely starting with the male nurse part. For example I I kind of liked whenever I was reading over that because I um my my late uncle he was a nurse and at no point whatsoever because I have a lot of family in the medical field. Did I ever know that there was like a gendered male nurse a female Nurse male doctor thing because um I guess like that really started to work for me because it was always normal I guess and it it was never a sense of this is ah you know he would present as a very masculine man I Guess so I always just assumed things like professions you know, female teachers or male construction workers. All of those things I Never really. 06:03.39 Zombi Knew or understood that was a thing that people looked at I never thought that professions were gendered and like they're not but you know a lot of people. Automatically, you know because of they're going to automatically gender it and for me that was something I learned much later on in life and it feels weird to hear it out loud. You know. 06:18.98 Jala And you know that was something that we were chit-chatting about that kind of triggered wanting to talk about identity and gender is because when we were in the green Room. You're like you know I don't really have as strong a binary sense of. You know Gender identity as a lot of other people seem to do and so I was curious and I wanted to hear you know like what your influences were that led you to have this different experience because for me I have a latino father I have a Cuban father and you know Cuban Catholic. Um, my mother is a strict lutheran um very traditional household that I was raised in where everybody has their specific gender Roles. You wear certain things. You look a certain way you act and talk a certain way Very very highly gendered and that did a lot of damage to Me. So. It gives me hope to hear that. Yeah, there are people out there who have not had ah quite as much of that occur in their lives and so um, what kinds of influences did you have growing up where your experience is less. Ah, strongly binary. 07:33.30 Zombi Yeah, it's definitely a lot with how you do how it happens when you grow up and I didn't realize that a lot of people had a difference like you're saying right there I Guess I'd heard of it but something that never registered with me because growing up I would think oh well because my family's like this I So Assume everyone's like that and I think I kind of. Spent a lot of my life thinking that but ah, both my parents worked but my mother was more the breadwinner she worked 2 to 3 jobs since I was a child ah to make most of the income just because that's kind of how it panned out without getting super personal into that section of it I never had that sense of. 08:10.81 Zombi The man is a breadwinner the man you know brings home the money brings home the this and that takes care of the family and the mother stays at home and does all the cleaning like my dad loved to do the cleaning like ah he loved to do all the cooking. He loved to do all of those things traditionally you would think or I guess traditionally a lot of people would say. Their gender roles are reversed and that's not the case at all my father um is a very I guess physically ah in appearance. Masculine Man My mother is a very petite Asian woman that you might think is like hyper Feminine. So There was always these contradictions in terms of what I learned. 08:44.93 Jala And I I is it. Okay, it is weird I was going to say. Is it weird for me to say I wish I had had that kind of an upbringing instead because that sounds um, nicer. 09:00.73 Jala Um, my mother my mother was a stay at homeme mom for the first eight years nine years of my life and she did all the cooking and the cleaning and she did everything that you might expect from Susie Homemaker you know, um and my dad was the breadwinner and he. 09:18.60 Jala At 1 point didn't want her to go back to college to finish because she was in the middle of college when she got pregnant with my sister and he was like no, you don't need to go back to college because I'm earning enough money for ever and so she ended up going back to college like way later in life and finishing up her degree. 09:37.65 Jala But like you know that's the kind of situation that it was when I was growing up where it was that binary and my dad was always like trying to get us to wear dresses and buying us jewelry and stuff like that and you know like I was I was shoved into a box that I did not fit. You know I do not fit in that box and so like that's a lot of what caused. Um, you know my gender dysphoria when I was in my teenage years which I've talked about on prior episodes multiple episodes at this point. So um, yeah, it's really interesting to hear that that you had this different kind of situation. 10:15.86 Jala Culturally speaking like from ah your mom's side of the family or I don't even know um what other kinds of cultural influences you had and like where you grew up and that kind of thing but like did you have cultural influences that kind of um. 10:31.81 Jala Added to your sense of gender at all. 10:36.10 Zombi Not that I realized until I was older probably um, my my mother's side of the family. She's filipino and as you know with a lot of the asian cultures not too dissimilar to latino cultures that they have that strong sense of The man is the man. The woman is the woman and you know Meek and blah blah blah blah. But um I can't remember what my lolo did to be honest I always thought that he was some sort of like ah a mob boss for some reason because he always seemed to have lots of money and he always seemed to like a lot of people respected him like I don't know a filipino kind of a. Just a really powerful man and he was always with us and my my lola she was a nurse most of her life like a lot of you know Filipinas that immigrate to the United States become narciss and everything so she she fit in that just well. But um, my uncle on that side of the family. He also followed her and tears to footsteps that became a nurse. My mother did not 1 did my aunt sit done. Another aunt did so um I guess because we were more spoiled. Um, it's just myself and my sister or well it was for a while than ten years later my my cousin skim along a boy and a girl um shoot wolfs I saying basically I never really noticed the cultural aspect until I lived in the Philippines for a while and then I saw kind of the privilege privilege that comes with being a man. There were some really gross parts of it where it came like men could. 12:02.40 Zombi Pee anywhere that was terrifying to me and really I don't know the first time I saw that I'm like oh sweet cheese white. And yeah, this is coming from someone with like um on my other side of the family just like I guess we could say white white white mixed all sorts of different. 12:21.67 Zombi Mixes of things I had cousins that were male and would just like pull to over to the side outside and find the spot to pee and that was like just normal but it wasn't in public or on a house or anything like that and I saw that it's like men can do all of these things anyway. 12:38.80 Zombi For some reason women are more. So um, there there would be women running the market stalls and stuff like that but men would be gutting the fish and it's just stuff like that that i't know when I say out loud. It doesn't sound as gendered and I guess maybe it's because I don't think of things in such a gender term. But. 12:56.85 Zombi It did definitely strike me as different. There was definitely a different power dynamic. It's hard to articulate I guess. 13:01.00 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, well and that's kind of part of the reason for these episodes in the first place right? till these are things that are harder to really. 13:16.99 Jala Mull over in your head a lot of times because most people kind of have like assumptions about gender and identity and whatever themselves. Other people and so on and as a result of just having those assumptions which is a perfectly normal and human thing to do like we all do it because we can't know everything and there have to be some some degree of of um responses that you. 13:46.34 Jala Have as a result of Inputs. You know that you've you've got your experiences and what you see and what you're hearing and so Forth. So I mean like that's that's a human trait to have that happen but like because of those assumptions that means that a lot of times many people do not have the language. To discuss these topics and so part of doing these podcasts is to bring the language to the people you know, ah bring the concepts to the people talk to everybody about these subjects and give everyone including those of us who are recording the words. 14:12.56 Zombi Um, yeah, that's awesome. 14:23.98 Jala You know because a lot of times that is the fight you can be aware of a situation but until you can put a name to it. You can't take action about it. 14:34.32 Zombi Oh My gosh and I have a great example that goes exactly with what you just said because um I did come out like what I was probably late teens early 20 s whenever I started questioning my gender and kind of understanding it. But what really. Ah, made me aware of it. Um I never felt like ah anything I Guess gender wise I Never really felt like anything sometimes I would feel like a guy more often than not but I for the most part I just felt like hey I just exist. Why do we have to put a word in front of that. Ah. 15:08.16 Zombi But then one day I'm reading this web comic that I really like I read a lot of web comics and um, a character comes through and they actually have a lot of gender fluid characters and a lot of the web comics I Love now and I'm picking that up more and more even though they never explicitly state it or explain it because like why would you have to explain. 15:24.94 Zombi Who someone is what the story isn't about that. They just are but in 1 of them. They actually did mention it because ah they the character in that comic. Actually you know came out and was presenting as female whereas normally they would present themselves as more of a male or a nonbinary person. 15:44.22 Zombi And another character was surprised you like oh my gosh, you're a girl and then they kind of went over. Oh I'm actually gender fluid and here's kind of what it is and I never had a word for it. So when I read that or like yeah when I read that I was like oh my gosh that makes sense. That's how I feel and it was just the coolest thing because like since I never had a word. 15:48.60 Jala Well, that's cool. 16:03.19 Zombi And I I was never able to articulate it. It wasn't something I was able to fully I guess own up to but you know it it makes a difference to have the words to have the vocabulary for things like that. It really does. 16:08.97 Jala Him? Yeah, well. So first off, what is the name of that web web comic for anybody who might be curious. Oh I put you on the spot. Sorry. 16:20.51 Zombi Oh my gosh. Ah, it's no no, it's fine. It's kind of ah it's kind of a sexy one. It's um, what was it called I think this one was sticky dilly buns. It's from the eie cuties in the Pixie tricks web comics. They do a lot of like sexy situations and stuff. 16:38.33 Zombi Um, another good example of that is sister Claire. There's a really awesome character that I kind of wish I was more like them because they can physically turn into a bird like their witches in it and they can turn into a bird like this amazing bird I should actually link that one and they can also alter their body to. 16:58.19 Zombi Presented the way that they wanted to be presented to to the way that they feel that they want to be which is something I wish I could do a lot I'm very chestsy and sometimes I wish I could just like take off my chest. Yeah, take off my boobs and put them aside for a while and put it back on whenever I want to look cute in a dress or something. 17:13.52 Jala Yeah, like I I don't I don't have that particular problem I have a lot of hips in a lot of ah butt and I do not have much chest. So. 17:24.20 Jala Ah, especially when I am doing a lot of bodybuilding like my chest goes away 100% and is like not there and then and then I have weird feelings because it's not there anymore and I'm used to having something you know. So ah so. 17:36.32 Zombi Um, oh that's interesting. 17:37.90 Jala Yeah I had some I had some really strange feelings. Um, when I was doing the bodybuilding and I got really really small and then I was like for the longest time I was like I do not understand why assigned female at Birth bodybuilders are always putting in chest implants you know breast implants and all of that and then when I got really small I was like. I can understand why someone would be emotionally affected by sins. Suddenly not not ah feel feel as good in their body. You know? Um, so. 18:07.61 Zombi That's I've never ever considered that I'm new to like working out in stuff in general I was actually excited to lose weight because I think it'll shrink down my chest. It's very heavy in my back already has issues but that is something I've never ever considered like. 18:21.82 Zombi When you say weird like do you mind expanding on that I'd love to hear more if you don't if you'll feel comfortable. 18:25.89 Jala Sure. Well first off, um, definitely send me links to those web comics and I will make sure to put those in the show notes for anybody who's curious about them. Um, so definitely do that. Ah insofar as like okay so the body dysphoria that went along with that like. 18:34.37 Zombi Absolutely. 18:43.71 Jala Okay, as much as I go between feeling feminine and masculine and there are 2 extremes I don't really feel um, anything in between. It's either I'm one or I'm the other one and that's it um, as much as. I'm like you know like when when I was wearing a lot of masculine clothes. My chest didn't present an issue to me because it was never very very large. So. It's easy to just use anything as a binder when you got a small chest and it's like whatever it just goes away. No big deal. Um, but like. Doing all the bodybuilding having all that muscle I already spent a lot of time in feeling masculine doing all of the lifting just because I associate lifting with all of my gym bros and like I have like 1 female lifting friend and all the rest of them are male. And so I associate it as a masculine activity I feel more masculine when I'm doing it so um, being in that masculinity a lot and then seeing my chest disappear like to where I'm like oh I can put on this little bikini and I have all these ripped muscles and I look really cool, but. Wow what happened to my chest. Ah you know like I didn't have a lot before I didn't think I had that much to lose where did it go like ah that that it caused feelings for me that were akin to when I had cervical cancer I did not want to have children. 20:16.81 Jala But when I had cervical cancer I had some really strong feelings and felt really really depressed and emotional because ah the capacity to have children was taken away from me I wanted to have that option there and I feel that in regard to like the body Dysphoria and stuff. That's how I felt about my chest when I was so small and I had so low a body fat that my chest disappeared completely I was like I don't have the option of having ah a thing you know like a lower cut anything because there's nothing there anymore like it's gone except for the muscles like. 20:49.74 Zombi Wow! yeah. 20:52.77 Jala You know and that's a very odd sensation when you're you know, especially when you are assigned female at Birth and you are accustomed to having that there suddenly not having that there and being you know, somebody who goes between gender you know concepts of gender like yeah, that was ah, a weird feeling. So. 21:13.50 Zombi That know I would have never considered that. So I Really appreciate you sharing that. That's really interesting. Oh My gosh. Um I Just wish we could just you know more for bodies If If if we want to temporarily just. You know, change your body to the way that makes you feel more comfortable but still have the option to change it back I Kind of wish that were a thing that would be cool because I've never felt like entirely comfortable body wise like whenever I was young I was also very flat. Um like I was less in an a cup I Guess if you use measurements. 21:45.54 Zombi And this happened until I was 15 and like I would see all the girls in school and this was before I learned anything about my gender and just be like why am I not looking the same way that they're looking I feel not good about that and there were honestly times where I'd cry because I did not have a chest which is looking back. It's silly, but it's like oh I just want to hug. 22:05.34 Zombi Little me because of that because of how much I have changed its end. Um. 22:06.50 Jala Um, well because because that was part of your sense of you know your gender at that time at least um you know part of how like everybody else who is in the same box as you. Looks a certain way but you don't and that's ah, that's ah that exclusionary feeling Even if you don't necessarily care About. You know the thing itself like suddenly not fitting the Box. You know, having another way in which you do not fit the Box. Um. 22:25.41 Zombi Um, right? yeah that describes it pretty well. 22:39.90 Jala Is is kind of a devastating feeling and that's sort of what I was encountering when I had the cervical cancer and also the same thing that I was encountering when I had the really really low body fat which is why I don't think at this point I'm ever going to do like an actual bodybuilding show because I think emotionally it just affects me too much. 22:59.34 Jala Just to be that low of a body fat. So ah, there you go. 23:03.30 Zombi Okay, that sounds really cool to hear I'm I'm not sure if cool is the right word but it was very interesting. 23:08.90 Jala But it's fine. Yeah, yeah, So so yeah, so you were saying that you um felt odd because you know you didn't have a chest until you know you hit puberty or whenever during your puberty that. That decided to grow. 23:25.25 Zombi No, that's that's actually the funny story of it because I was already in puberty and I know that puberty with you know, afab and Cis women get it lasts longer I don't think that was part of the issue see in the span of exactly two weeks 23:41.95 Zombi And I just want you to if you can because I can't imagine things in my head. But if you can imagine just how horrifying this was in the stretch marks in the span of 2 weeks I learn you're not supposed to wear a bra when you go to sleep I did not know this my mom never told me I guess because I just never talked about the fact I was wearing a bra when I went to bed. 23:59.21 Zombi And whenever I learn again thanks to a web comic I learned a lot of things things web comics, funny enough. Um I take it off next day I know it's the differences like okay, well that's weird. There's some red marks there but whatever and then the next week I went from an a cup to a c cup the week after that to a de cup. It's like what is happening right now. 24:15.29 Jala Wow, Yeah, that's I I can't even imagine that because I have an older sister and I've told this story I think on the last episode that was ah topical about the femininity but like. My sister is 4 years older than me she hit puberty I Saw my sister I said Okay, so that's what I'm going to look like and I'm not going to disclose my sister's chests size but it's larger than me. It's definitely larger than me and um, so in either case I looked at her and went okay, that's what I'm going to look like and I hit puberty. 24:46.67 Jala And nothing happened and that's that's that's where we stay to this day I actually had a boyfriend at one point. Um, who told me about my chest because I was feeling my feels about my chest at that time insecure about my chest and then he actually told me. 24:50.48 Zombi Oh my gosh. 25:05.70 Jala It's okay, if it doesn't form perfect circles. Wow Wow Wow My guy So so don't do that. Don't ever do that? Please that was terrible. 25:07.69 Zombi What wait, who does that? 25:21.61 Jala So going back to gender and identity. We are already talking gender and identity right now but like um, let's talk a little bit more about like the science of of what's going on here So gender of course enters into all of our social relations because. 25:39.19 Jala When you go into any and interaction with someone that you see on the street or whatever you are looking at them and you are perceiving who they are are they a threat like on the very basic level. Are they a threat. You know what do they want? What's going on who are they and you're trying to figure out this information so you make assumptions to a certain degree based on that now. The thing that you should do at this point if you are going to enter into a conversation with them is you know of course see what their name is but also see what their pronouns are and the reason for that is because pronouns are like a shorthand version of trying to see what they're you know what their perception of themselves is and so. That helps to give you some clarity like they might be looking for all the world to you like they are presenting feminine but then they actually are not personally perceiving themselves in this way and you need to know that information before you enter into that conversation. You know, um. I try to the best of my ability to remember on this podcast to introduce everyone and introduce their pronouns and I don't always do it 100% of the time every time that I realize I didn't I kick myself but I don't go back and edit it because ah, that's just a learning process for me and it needs to be out there in the world. So people know you know. 26:58.61 Jala Everybody messes up but some ah. 27:01.37 Zombi Right? exactly and it's It's fun that you should say that because I um at at even at this moment as we speak I am going to be honest with you I'm wearing a cute little goth like sailor scout outfit but I prefer you know to be seen as a boy right now. 27:19.33 Zombi Like I look very like be I think is e feminate. But then I realized growing up and I had people that help me with it's like oh well boys can look cute too. Boys can have boopbs. Do it's like it doesn't mean they're not so um, it does feel a lot better because like I remember the first time somebody ever asked for my pronouns you're like hey what's your name and pronouns I cried because I'm like oh my god i. 27:39.33 Zombi I've never had that. Um, So it's so much safer like I do prefer they them pronouns for the most part that's pretty much gonna be the safe bet for me Personally um I can always accept they then pronouns. But um, if I'm walking around and I look the way I Do you know very I guess Curvy and. You know I don't know I Guess what people would think is effeminate then it it kind of sucks to be seen that way even though that's not how I feel even though that's not how I feel I'm presenting I'm like no I'm just a really cute dude you know. 28:11.88 Jala Well and the thing too is that um my concept of of when I'm in my masculine mode is extremely different from your concept of your you know, cute boy right? Your soft boy I think is how you usually say it? Yes, so. 28:25.81 Zombi Yes, on point. 28:28.95 Jala So you know like you consider your you know when you are being in your masculine end of the spectrum your soft boy. But for me, absolutely not absolute opposite absolute I'm like super the the hardcore you know rough and gruff. 28:48.24 Jala And Stoic individual when I'm in masculine Mode. So Um, and again, that's just because of ah how I was raised and what I was raised around. My dad was a career iron Worker. So ah, a lot of my concept of. Man and masculine and things like that on that side of the binary and that side of the spectrum is you know a certain way but that doesn't mean that I don't ah feel that other versions of masculinity are invalid I don't feel that at all. They are all valid. You know everybody's sense of gender is valid. 29:22.19 Zombi Yeah, absolutely and we've all presented very differently. 29:23.40 Jala And equal. Um, yeah, it's just that my personal expression of it is this way and when I think of myself in masculine mode and when I want masculine pronouns. It's when I'm that way so you know. The thing is is that a lot of times people don't identify the changes in my voice when I'm talking in that Mode. You know when I'm in that mode when I'm feeling that way. And for example, right now the way that I'm talking to you is a little bit more on the masculine end of the spectrum than the last episode that I did. Ah, that was a topical one. So. 29:59.38 Zombi Oh I mean I want to look back and like listen to that because I do love like how people can you know change their voices to suit how they feel not just on an emotional spectrum but also in the gender way like did a gender way. Get whatever you know what? I mean. 30:11.16 Jala Oh yeah, Well, there's yeah well,, there's also ah vocal training and stuff that you can do as well and I'm just I haven't done any vocal training in any way shape or form that is something that exists out there mostly for um, Trans folks you know. And people who want to work on on you know, feminizing or masculinizing their voice to Match. You know their sense of self but I'm just aware of it because. For a while when I was in college I studied cultural anthropology and just the the way in which people form words the way in which people learn how to speak is extremely gendered and there's like different ways that the words are formed and the different mouth movements and things like that. So um, it's kind of a detailed. Situation and it actually the part of the throat that you use is different as Well. So um. 31:03.98 Zombi Really I've never done any form of voice changing or tried to because I have a lot of throat issues I guess I All know it's always too hurtful or hurtful. It's painful to kind of change my voice even though I would like to learn. Maybe it's just a muscle that needs to be trained. But um. 31:14.41 Jala Um, yeah, well a lot of times. Ah what I gather from people who have done the voice training. 31:19.72 Zombi I've never done that a lot myself. So it's interesting to hear that. 31:28.94 Jala Is that it really is. It's a muscle. It's ah a part of the throat that you don't tend to use if you were born a certain way and have been talking that way. You know your entire life to change how you are talking to um, something else other than how you. Originally did takes training. It's like singing singing takes training. That's also a vocal thing that you do that requires repetition and exercises and things like that so that is that is a thing so anyway, um, yeah, so when you go up across anybody. Ah, coming up to Zombi saying hey what's your name. What are your pronouns and this can be affirming like you know make somebody cry because you actually either guessed accurately or better better option asked and you know confirmed and then reinforced. You know the the sense of self that this person has you know it. It can be affirming. It can be great. It can give you a sense of euphoria when somebody sees you as you are it also can give you some really bad feels. So ah when you have your gender negated when someone is. Talking to you and you are a trans woman but they call you by Sir Or Mr or whatever that is something that can obviously lead to mental and emotional health issues and depression lower self-esteem. 33:05.26 Jala All different kinds of things like that lower energy levels from depression. Ah, lots of other like. So so you know suicidal ideation. It can also lead to ah, bullying and violence and any number of other things that can escalate really really quickly. Especially if there's anyone in the area who jumps on the bandwagon. 33:23.97 Zombi Right? And that's why like you might hear a lot of people saying Mis gendering is violence like because it it is especially whenever it's done intentionally like obviously. 33:37.39 Zombi You may not always know but that's why it's always better to ask. It's always better to ask rather than just make these assumptions and potentially hurt somebody. 33:43.28 Jala And something that we talked about in my discord because um, we were discussing pronouns a while back and I was talking about how they then pronouns actually feel very bad to me and make me depressed and give me those those upsetting. Gender feels when somebody uses they them. They can say she they can say he but I don't like they them and um, that's just how I respond to that and how you know it's been popularized that people will if they don't know the gender of the person that they are talking about. They will default to they them and that is kind of a good rule of thumb if you do not have that person around to ask like if somebody is writing into the podcast and you're reading a response maybe say they them because you don't know because you don't have enough time. You don't have any interaction with that person to ask. But like if you know. 34:26.29 Zombi Right. 34:38.66 Jala And you can go to that person and ask them. It's better to ask than to assume and you know they them is you know it might be quote Unquote Gender neutral but that doesn't mean that it's not damaging so. 34:51.10 Zombi Definitely and I know um I know a lot of Trans women as well I've dated a Trans woman who hated being referred to as they them that was so sometimes she would say that it was worse than being called male. 34:55.12 Jala Oh yeah. 35:03.34 Zombi Um, because on the phone I know she was doing her voice training but on the phone sometimestime she would get served and she would just be like it's actually ma'am and that she almost never had an issue on the phone at least for that I know if she had more issues in person. But if somebody ever said Oh ah, hello to. 35:22.89 Zombi I'm trying to think of the Sarah Van vive never is there a Sarah band for they then i. 35:26.00 Jala Ah I met it MX it's MX I don't know I don't know how you say that zur zur is it z yeah, ah Captain Captain 35:35.90 Zombi I Like to say the captain thing I read that once somewhere and so like defaulted to get to captain because they didn't know what to say I Just like that because it's fine. But basically anytime they were mis gendered as they them. It just felt even worse than um, like I don't know for some reason it really. 35:52.50 Zombi Made probably probably not too dissimilar to how you feel about it just made them feel really icky and bad inside just not seen. 35:55.62 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and that leads to the big T Trauma. So. Every time that somebody misgenders you? That's a little bit more trauma adding to an overall sense of ptsd that people can get as a result of this misgendering and of not being seen for who you are and it's a mantra that I talk about all the time on this show these days but um. 36:26.76 Jala I've have said it many many times that will continue to say this when you can see somebody and you can be talking to them or you know, whatever and you. See them for who they truly are and they see you for who you truly are and you are being open and receptive about it that is like the most magical thing in the entire universe and you know you should try it and try to have an open open heart to heart with somebody and see them as they really are um. Something that Jonathan Van Ness actually said in a podcast episode of getting curious that I was listening to earlier today was that they want to they have to be open-minded about. Themselves and be accepting and loving of themselves because if they cannot be open-minded and accepting and loving. They cannot ah therefore extend that love and that understanding and that empathy to other people. And they have to be real with themselves about who they are and what they need and what they want in order to have that authenticity to make that safe space. You know for their show. So. 37:38.47 Zombi Yeah, it's hard to it's hard to present yourself as a safe space if you don't even feel safe with yourself. 37:45.30 Jala Yes, that that that that let's underline that. So Yeah I will be going into another episode in the future that will be going more into binary damage and the gender binary and how that um perpetuates. Inequalities and different things like that that is obviously going to be something I talk about because um, that's a big topic and a big issue but in either case, everybody interprets everyone else and evaluates the gender of someone else. Because of this whole ah power and privilege dynamic. You know, ah people have certain things open to them when they are of a certain gender in certain environments and with certain people. 38:31.76 Zombi Right. 38:34.10 Jala And you know you mentioned this yourself Zombi when you were talking about the dudes in the Philippines who were just like pissing wherever and that kind of a thing. Sorry ah sorry I didn't want to bring that terrible memory back up. But also I was trying to make a point here. 38:40.11 Zombi I I don't miss that. No, it's it's it's okay, it's okay it's like it's kind of like a bonus eye like I said I don't remember it's called Ampphiasia or whatever I can't picture in my head I just have the knowledge that is the thing. So at least I can't see it. 38:57.10 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, well gender identity is also something that's tied to personal efficacy in a way that is partially self-driven and partially external and completely beyond our control because. Your personal efficacy. You know like your empowerment you know your your gender identity is part of your personal empowerment but it also when in the hands of society and other people you know takes some of that choice out of your hands and puts it in the hands of those around you who are seeing and interpreting you. So um, that's just another way in which gender nonconforming folks and trans folks and so on um, end up having extra challenges that people who are Cis don't have to worry about you know? so. 39:58.38 Jala So it's crucial to allow other people to identify themselves to you and if you happen to be a Cis person with less experience with non-binary folks agender folks trans folks gender fluid folks. It's important for you to try to broaden your perspective so that you can see these people for who they really are and listening to this episode and all of the other episodes where we're discussing these topics is 1 manner in which you may start to open up your mind a little bit about. All of these topics and see different perspectives and hear from different voices and different backgrounds. So there will be yeah, there will be some articles linked in the show notes and of course as mentioned the web comics if we can get some links to that. But. 40:35.36 Zombi Yeah I agree. 40:47.30 Zombi Absolutely I mean I'd love more people to be reading those and that's ah sorry like 1 more thing that's that's another thing it it doesn't cost you. It doesn't hurt you to just ask somebody and make them feel more comfortable through asking. 41:03.67 Zombi What they prefer to be called or what they are it. It doesn't hurt anyone so it's like it costs you nothing like it's not going to hurt you to just ask and even if that sounds rough like sorry but not sorry it it doesn't hurt you to ask someone. 41:17.42 Jala Well, you know what the thing is if if it sounds rough to be asking Imagine how it sounds or how it feels to the people who have their their answers assumed for them and don't line up with what people are assuming you know. 41:32.14 Zombi Um, yeah, exactly. 41:36.59 Jala So so yeah, let's talk a little bit about masculinity now that we've talked a little bit about um gender why is gender even important to anybody anyway and really, it's just because you're interacting in society and society makes it important for these reasons you know. Um, and of course it is like a self-identfier like it is part of you know, seeing yourself as part of a group of people identifying with a group or not identifying with a group as a case may be and um, noting those differences or those similarities between yourself and others and having a sense of community. Or having a sense of individuality as the case may be so ah talking about masculinity. However, so ah, it is a highly subjective thing of course and so the first question on the list of questions because we're going to recycle the list of questions from the Femininisty episode. 42:32.85 Jala Is about what is what is masculinity to you. Zombi. 42:37.25 Zombi I don't have a straight up definition. It's something that can either cause me a lot of happiness or a lot of pain and I struggle with it's something that I don't understand why it exists and why it makes sense because. You you might like I don't know Google masculinity and they're going to say you know it pertains to being a boy being a man and for me that doesn't feel like what masculinity is or should be it doesn't make sense to me so like I can feel masculine and I don't feel like a boy like um. 43:09.75 Zombi Feel more I feel more like a woman if anything when I'm feeling masculine whenever I'm feeling those traits that they perceive as masculine like more confident or stronger or you know any of those Um, any of those kinds of traits. So I so I really do struggle with it because it just I don't know masculinity. Whatever they say it just. 43:25.94 Jala Well, what's great is that what you just said where you're talking about ah when you are more or less in your masculine power. You feel more like a woman. Um, that is exactly the thing that Marcus said. 43:28.87 Zombi It makes so sense to be. 43:42.65 Jala On the Femininity episode. They said that when they are super ripped and they are super fit and they are all this other stuff. They feel more feminine and you know what I think I feel the same way as Well. I think I might have even said it on that episode like when I'm super buff and I am you know like that I feel. More Strongly. Ah feminine and that's probably another reason why when my chest goes away when I have too low a body fat that that affects me more is because I feel feminine. But then you know, Um, this thing that is. 44:16.22 Jala That this assumed thing that was on my body is no longer on my body anymore and that was a marker of femininity that is no longer there. He knows So yeah, yeah, so I will. But yes. 44:24.75 Zombi Right? Yeah, you know and I sorry going? Okay I actually talked to my um, my other Jim Brofriend about this sometimes about how a lot of people perceive women that are bodybuilders or women that like to lift. As oh they're so masculine. Oh they're so manly blah blah blah and then we have this discussion where it's like no to us they have these exaggerated portions of their femininity like they own that femininity. Um, and I always found that really interesting like how a large group of people could. See them and could say oh they're manly it's like to me I see them and I see a very very womanly like assuming they are a woman a very womanly woman. You know. 45:00.60 Jala Yeah, so I will go ahead and give you my super binary list of masculine traits because. When I was brainstorming my answers for the femininity episode I actually wrote notes for the masculinity episode as Well. Assuming that I was going to be doing one um and a lot of it is just like adjectives. Um from how I grew up. These are the things that I saw. Around me when I was growing up that were modeled to me as masculine and that is why I inherited those as this is the the form that I see for my version of masculinity. Not everyone else's but my personal version so masculinity is about action analysis Order. Directness Decisiveness its regimented and it's problem solving and it's connected to the larger Social world. Its dominant protective and shielding. Its noble and Courteous. Its loving but a bit stoic sometimes sly and mischievous. Physically, it's hard work forceful dirty and hands on blockier and stiffer than Femininity. It's vast and impenetrable like the walls of a fortress on the negative side. It can be crude so direct and blunt as to be cutting aggressive and overconfident. So. 46:29.11 Jala What I'm doing here is more or less just explaining to you This is these are the aspects of my personality that when a lot of them are all clustered together and showing at the same time you could safely call me a he and it would be fine. So yeah, like ah. 46:43.54 Zombi Um, okay, that's a that's a pretty cool way to look at it. Um, in the way you described it Also like as you were saying I was thinking oh that sounds a lot like my gym profriend and so I. 46:58.40 Zombi Like that I um I like the definition like I said masculinity as a whole is confusing Gender is confusing none of it makes sense. Why does it exist go away and let people be but you know. 47:05.41 Jala Um, I know yeah and and again it's like that's because the way that you were growing up is such that it allowed for a little bit more freedom like it sounds to me like you weren't necessarily handed a box. I was not just handed a box. The box was shoved on top of me. So ah, you know like I and still to this day grapple with the different ways in which um, that damage occurred because of course when somebody shoves a box on you. You know that's going to. 47:42.23 Jala Cause some chafing especially if you don't fit in the box right? so. 47:46.79 Zombi Yeah, in every possible way just shoving all these boxes I don't know that's a very funny thing to think of I mean I think it's a great analogy but I'm just like it can work both ways it can work in real life and as this analogy. Ah. 48:01.43 Jala Um, absolutely so my masculine ideal. What I try to strive to be when I'm in dude mode if you will is strong and protective. 48:13.98 Jala Teasingly sexy and self-assured but not overconfident just aware of his effects on Others. He's a bit mischievous but also Empathetic. He inspires others to be more confident and helps show them their own Worth. He leads others by example and will never ask of others what he would not do himself First. He is fair and even-tempered so that is. 48:39.52 Jala That is what I aspire to be in my quote unquote dude mode and of course I had a feminine version of this which I explained on the last episode. So if you want to compare contrast. You can do that. There's a transcript you can find it. It's on the website. 48:52.27 Zombi Yeah I read most of the transcript bio think I got to that part. Um I don't know have to look. 48:54.58 Jala Yeah, but also for listeners if they want to listen to this and then also have like the transcript of the femininity episode open to get to those questions you can like do a word search and find where we were talking about this. So so yeah, like well since you don't have like a real. 49:14.21 Jala Ah, solid. Let's let's say like a concrete definition of what masculinity is to you. Ah, when you feel masculine or you feel like you are more like um yeah on that side of the spectrum or what have you? what. What does that look like for you like you, you've already said like soft Boy. So tell me more about softboy. 49:37.75 Zombi Okay, so I just feel like I want to look very pretty and soft and be protected so in a lot of ways the exact opposite of what you just describe as your ideal. Um, not so much sexy, but incredibly cute. Just someone who is. 49:54.87 Zombi You know he you know the term like must protect the sweet baby. That's how I feel and um I do like to there will be times where I'm going to present myself like I can't buy that anymore. Unfortunately I did it very unsafely and I lost my privilege to bind because I was very silly about it and I basically. 50:12.92 Jala Oh no. 50:14.40 Zombi I passed out once when I was binding So I don't I want to avoid that again. Um, but I will dressing Baggie or clothes I will um I don't want to cut my hair just because I like the shield it gets for confidencecing. But um I will. 50:27.87 Zombi Wear wig or move my hair to make it look shorter and just so that people have an easier time. Not misgenering me because a lot of people like passing about in the street like I still have that hope that people will be like oh look at that cute boy. Because that's what I am I'm this cute boy I need to be protected I'm soft and I want people to open doors for me and say you're a very good Boy. No. 50:44.61 Jala And it's funny that you mentioned hair too because I talked about hair in femininency episode because I chopped it all off and I got this cute little Bob thing going and it it's cute. And I can rock it. But at the same time It's like I had my hair super super long for a very very long time and actually I found that when I have super short hair and I try to do lifting and stuff like that I feel weirdly insecure about who I am like it's just. 51:16.22 Zombi Oh wow. 51:17.92 Jala Ah, like a really weird hit me to kind of dysphoria about it with my hair real short I I fine doing all the stuff that I do but I like my hair longer. So and like I when I'm not doing any physical training and things like that I don't have that problem and I can wear cute little hairpins and I can wear. 51:28.24 Zombi Right. 51:37.23 Jala Cute little hats and I can do whatever and be fine but like it affects me when I'm doing training and not just because it gets in my face and I can't stand it and I can't pull it back but um, other reasons as well. So I am growing it back out again. So I have this little Rat tail in the back of my head right now because that's about as far as it'll go. So. 51:57.44 Jala Eventually I'll have like the really long flowing hair and have like the high pony tail again, but not for a while. But if I'm in dude mode. Um I will pull that hair down and then put it usually into like a braid or something in the back of my head. So. 52:10.26 Zombi Right? And you you said that you feel that uncomfortable like you really feel that uncomfortable feeling when you are lifting is that similar to like with your chest like whenever your muscles are like your chest shrinks. 52:21.28 Jala Yeah I think it is I think it is ah because I was I was curious about it and I wasn't sure 100% What I felt about my hair and I kept on I was convincing trying to convince myself on the femininity episode when we were recording that that. I I didn't need to grow my hair back out what I needed to do is figure out what the root cause was and I think we've already hit that when we were talking about like my issue with my chest when I shrink ah is when I'm lifting I actually feel more femin in a lot of ways even though I identify it as a masculine activity. And even though to other people it looks more masculine and so if my hair is then also short that also is like against that femininity that I'm feeling and I'm not seeing reflected in the mirror. The way that I see myself in my head you know like. 53:12.15 Jala I Guess the part of the reason why I like training a lot is because it's a place in which I am doing an activity where I feel the most balanced and gender wise I feel the most balanced. 53:25.89 Zombi Okay, so does like training give you a sense of euphoria. 53:29.89 Jala It does it does it gives me a sense of euphoria not just because of all the dopamine dopamine squirts and all the other stuff endorphins and stuff that happened with that. Ah, but also because it's really affirming to me for my sense of self and the way that i. Move between things you know and so I like training and specifically I like lifting like I don't get that feeling when I'm running and when I'm rocking I almost always feel like a dude um certain certain types of activities I feel 1 specific way yoga I don't know that I feel any sense of gender doing that. When I'm dancing and I'm doing pole dance or belly dance I feel very feminine. So like I'll tailor my activities but when it comes to stuff like plymettrics or lifting those activities in particular are ones or obstacle course races those all of those things. I feel the most balanced so that's probably why I stick to those and I like doing those a lot. 54:29.38 Zombi Oh that's that's really cool and I don't think I've ever associated an activity like working out with how I feel Genderwise So I think I'm going to use as kind of a practice and see if it gives me any sense of euphoria or Dysphoria me try that that that's cool. Yeah. 54:43.11 Jala Yeah, Definitely yeah, Definitely definitely take a look at that and reflect and see how you how you feel about that. So ah, insofar as engaging with your masculinity though. Um. So There's this whole list of questions of like you know how do you engage with it when you're by yourself or when you're with your loved ones or work or when you're out and about or whatever. But um, you've already described yourself as you know I have soft boy I'm a soft boy I need to be protected and whatever is that like your do you have a consistent. Sense of of your gender. Is it like a consistent um place on on the spectrum that you feel like you're at or does it range like when do you feel more like how do you express that more masculine side of yourself on your day-to-day. But let's kind of put it that way. 55:33.47 Zombi Um, day to day. There is not a large amount of ranging because I think for the most part I do see myself and I do present more in that masculine way and I do I do So I am soft boy most of the time. So there's There's not a whole lot of range. But when there is it's usually whenever I'm um when whenever I feel like there's someone that I need to protect I feel like there's a lot of um, it changes then or whenever I'm feeling maybe depressed and I'm not saying like it makes me feel depressed but whenever I'm feeling depressed. Get myself in that I am an amorphous blob I am nothingness and that kind of lifts me out of it a little bit. It doesn't cure my depression by any means but it gets me out of that funk to just feel like I am actually nothing and I will be nothing but um on a day-to-day basis I do feel more so like that soft why I do feel more. 56:25.99 Zombi Like um I'm this cutesy person like obviously I'm very capable but I'm this cutesy person that would rather be taken care of and protected. 56:33.87 Jala And you know when I'm sitting here and I'm reflecting on myself and listening to you talk? Um I think part of the reason why I automatically slip into a little bit more of the masculine side of presentation when I'm talking to you is probably because. 56:50.28 Jala Your manner of um, expressing your gender is such that it's It's the automatically the type of person that I would be protecting and be you know, being a man for so so like that's actually probably why? um. 57:06.87 Jala You know I'm like and I just realize this right now. So this is a revelation happening in live life right now on this podcast. Yeah well yeah I mean like that's that's ah you know it's It's just it's it's something that I realize because the last episode I was on I was on. 57:13.70 Zombi That's that's one of the most gender affirming things I've heard in a while. So thank you. 57:26.23 Jala With um, Jamie now at adelaide and then with Marcus and um, just the way that they present themselves is such that like I don't I don't feel like I I need to be a man for them. So you know in ah in a lot of podcast situations I don't find myself. Discussing with people who I have that kind of um I don't know synergy with I guess so that's probably where that's coming from. So yeah, so there you go real real time. Ah revelations I had said on the last episode. 57:54.33 Zombi Okay, that that's really cool I like hearing that. 58:04.41 Jala All you people listening are going to hear it if you're going to hear these revelations happen in real time. So yeah, um next question on this list of questions is what does internal masculinity look like to you. But for you, you're like I exist in the universe and and that's my my. 58:21.20 Zombi That is exactly it that is I mean like I think it's more more of a not a show but I think it's more of me presenting. It's me more trying to get people to see it the way that I see it. 58:34.70 Zombi But the way that I see at the end of the day is I am a human and I am here I am alive and I exist in this world. 58:37.69 Jala Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and I've I've been listening to a lot of stuff and reading stuff by ALOK and ALOK is a wonderful human. Um. Absolutely love their work. They are so intelligent and so well-worded and we need more people like them in the world and we need more look everywhere just in general ah look them up listeners if you do not know anything about them. It's A L O K they have done Ted talk. They have been on. Ah, jvn's getting curious podcast. They have you know lots of different things that they've presented on they've been on oh goodness what was it called. There was some some dude man show with some dude man on it that's talking about like. I don't know it's some masculinity show or something but they had aokke on and it was pretty great because alokke very gently and kindly schooled the hell out of him and it was so it was a Youtube podcast so I'll have to link you I'll link it in the notes too for listeners who want to see it. I. 59:38.76 Zombi Yeah, please do that sounds delightful. 59:41.90 Jala Yeah I forget what it's called, but like so much so that they were crying on the air. So so like because they were crying because they were grateful for having their eyes open but the the most important part. 59:54.44 Jala Is that even though they stuck their foot in their mouth and you know like their their viewpoint that they're coming from is uneducated about the subject they were open and receptive and that was the important part. You know? So yeah, so about me um, ALOK. 01:00:05.67 Zombi Yeah, that's beautiful, really. 01:00:13.44 Jala So in reading a lot of stuff about a look and trying to educate myself further as I always am ah the more I thought about it the more I'm like you know I Really wonder if I would have stressed out about what gender am I at all and had dysphoria at all if it hadn't been for the fact that I had this box shoved on me. And the answer to that is no I probably would have never even thought about it. It would have just been like I exist in the universe I am a human and not worried about it. 01:00:39.39 Zombi Yeah, it's It's like when you're growing up. You don't think about these things until it's shoved onto you like that. 01:00:43.94 Jala And that's exactly what it was because even when I was a little kid I was always told oh well, you can't be Rafael the ninja turtle because you're a girl so you have to be April O'neill so guess who. 01:00:57.73 Jala Ah, was Raphael the real Raphael and those other boys were clones from dimension x sent by crane and me and my other ah friends went and beat them up for great justice and then like the same thing happened when I wanted to play ghostbusters and they told me that I couldn't be a ghostbuster because I was a girl. And so I had to be a secretary and stay at base and yeah, yeah, secretary they told me I had to be a secretary and I was like ah I think that the ghostbusters have been possessed and we are the ghostbusterettes and we must go exercise them with our fists. 01:01:18.64 Zombi Um, ah you had to be a secretary. 01:01:34.72 Jala So I Also also um, just to to give you another little background about um how I I act and react around you and how that's ah reflective is when I was little I was also the bully beater So like I protected girls and I also protected. 01:01:37.34 Zombi That's that's great. Oh my gosh. 01:01:53.70 Jala Boys who were shy or as you would call it a soft boy I would protect them from the bullies and I would take care of that problem for them. So so yeah, so like that's it's a natural ah part of who I am so um, but the way that I talked about internal. 01:02:12.30 Jala Masculinity for me even though like again this is all made up and I'm damaged and that's why I have a binary in my head. Um that switches back and forth so strongly between 2 things rather than just going. You're a human being this is how you are you know? Um, anyway. 01:02:26.62 Zombi My. 01:02:29.34 Jala For me, It's really like a left brain right? Brain kind of thing almost because creative acts I almost always associate with being a feminine person and you know the analysis and the kind of detached looking at things and and you know procedural. Kind of stuff that is really what registers as masculine to me. So That's another way to get like hints about what mode am I in in the moment is am I being kind of more abstract and creative and and ah. 01:03:06.30 Jala Florid with my up with my prose or am I just being very matter of fact and cutting to the point you know and that that's a lot of that. So but so yeah, um. 01:03:22.69 Jala Moving right? Along. Let me move this here. Yes, so Pandemic How has pandemic or how did I don't know how active you are out in the universe now at this time. Um, how has pandemic. Affected your sense of gender has it affected it at all. 01:03:46.29 Zombi Yeah I think it um made me more so accept the soft boy reality because it didn't always start off exactly that way. It started off more of me trying to present as looking like a traditional male might try to look. Um. 01:04:02.99 Zombi And I think part of the reason for that is because I became so online. Um I made a lot of really amazing friends that made me realize hey I don't have to just act like everyone thinks I should act because I feel a certain way I can act like how I feel you know. 01:04:19.12 Zombi So I think having being able to like sit there not only make new friends because I was more so forced you I Um, okay when did I start I'm trying to think of a timeline really quickly. 01:04:32.94 Zombi I don't know basically being shut off from having to walk around out in public where I might want people to look at me and be like yes I see a boy um not having that pressure on me made me more able to accept how I am actually made me more able to accept I'm soft. 01:04:48.81 Zombi Made me not feel the pressure to need to bind or really look a certain way because I don't have to look a certain way to actually be that way like I still am. 01:04:57.55 Jala Yeah, and back when I first had my sense of gender Dysphoria back in my teen years. Um I dressed like a dude a lot of a lot of the time and some of that was insecurity with the. Not fitting the feminine box and some of that was no I feel more comfortable this way but over time I kind of stopped presenting insofar as like buying clothes specifically to look a certain way or you know getting dude clothes specifically so I could have. A dude outfit or whatever like I I stopped doing that. Ah for the most part and it's really more and just like my personal expression in any given moment when I'm in a more masculine mode or when I'm in a more feminine Mode. So. 01:05:46.95 Jala Um, you know for me, it stopped being about a physical presentation. Although there are definitely certain walks that I have that are very masculine walks. They're like my dude walks um people who know me in person know what those look like people who don't. 01:06:01.37 Zombi Is that like a swagger order. 01:06:03.69 Jala Yeah, you can imagine it like a swagger you can imagine it like I'm the big bad furious dude about to kick somebody's ass kind of walk except imagine like a five foot four of the same female person doing that. So anyway, yeah, so that's that's me I got like that that. Action hero walk. You know sometimes so. 01:06:24.57 Zombi Nice I mean if we ever like meat or go get food together because fortunately we're both vegan vegan wisely vegan that would be cool and you can maybe show me that walk if you're feeling it because I am interested. 01:06:37.86 Jala Right? right? Well like I'll I'll have to put on like a theme like a soundtrack or something so I got like get in the mood for it. You know, rev up because let me like I don't I don't expect if we were to meet face to face that I would be um, super. 01:06:53.50 Jala Aggressive and and whatever to an extreme unless somebody was picking a fight then you'd automatically see it at that point so hopefully in better so better situation than that though I'd rather have the theme music going. That's pretty funny like and that's also a really good visual for the listeners. So. 01:06:59.95 Zombi Okay, that makes sense. 01:07:09.90 Jala So yeah, um, yeah when you talk about online presentation and it's funny that you say that because um, I've told this story again sometime on some show but I'll tell it again for your benefit when I first met the guy who I first married I divorced that. Person or we divorced rather several several years ago back in 2014? Um, but in either case when I first met him it was online and we were both role-playing an anime series actually and. 01:07:49.79 Jala I was playing a male character and I didn't tell anybody what I as a person was gender wise they just assumed that I was a dude and at a certain point that got real awkward to wear like I just rolled with it and I was like I'm not going to be role-playing with them for very long because you know at that point. Ah, people would go in and out of chat rooms back when chat rooms existed and um so like you know I didn't expect to stick around to have to worry about whether or not they thought I was the correct. Ah you know, gender or whatever and so I was. 01:08:27.80 Jala Play role playing a dude and then eventually I started because I ended up hanging out with them more and then it became real awkward and also I was a teenager at the time. So. It's like I also didn't want to have to be like oh by the way even though you've been calling me a dude and I have not corrected you I actually a girl like I didn't want to. Go there so I just left it alone and I just was like roleplaying a dude role-playing a dude so there was it was like and you know wheels within wheels and and stuff like that and so ah I was so worried because I started getting really close to ah Slade who has you know Slade. 01:08:51.72 Zombi Oh wow. 01:09:05.90 Jala Is my ex-husband Slade who has also been on this podcast because we're still friends. Um, anyway Slade ah he he and I got really really close and then I started feeling really really really wrought. About this because I was like I am lying I am living a lie. He doesn't know he doesn't know who I am and so on and this is before like I had words for gender fluid or any of that right? So I knew I wasn't trans I just didn't know what I was and I knew that I didn't fit my box and I knew that I was telling. 01:09:40.82 Jala You know these people that you know are are like rolling rolling rather with ah what they assumed you know there. There's those assumptions again doing damage right? And um. 01:09:52.94 Jala Anyway, So like I was worried because I was like you know, rolling with their assumption that I was a dude but like if they saw me face to face. They would not perceive me that way and so I eventually confessed to slaid and told him um by the way I'm a do I'm not actually like a dude I'm a I'm a female and. He thought he laughed so hard he thought it was the best thing ever because he already he's by and he already liked me anyway. Ah, and so he's like it doesn't matter to me one way or the other you are amazing Either way and I love you and that's that's how that went. Yeah, ah that was that was. 01:10:26.20 Zombi Um, don't you just love when it works out that way though. That's nice. 01:10:30.60 Jala That was groundbreaking because I had been in different relationships with dudes who were like you don't you know you're not feminine enough. You need to wear skirts more often and that kind of thing like that that yeah that that kind of icky stuff was the kind of and then of course the boyfriend who was like your boobs aren't. 01:10:42.64 Zombi Um, that's so icky. Oh geez. 01:10:49.88 Jala Full circles. Yeah, like well I will never forget that and now none of the listeners will ever forget that and now somebody stored that in their head and they're like Jalla doesn't have full circle boo like okay okay internet yeah I will let you have that one. 01:10:50.70 Zombi I am going to never forget that? yeah. 01:11:08.80 Jala Anyway, So in either case, Ah yeah, like on the internet. There was a point in time and the thing is is that when I was being a guy playing a dude character I was 100% comfortable and not only that everybody loved me. Guy girl. It didn't matter everybody who had a crush on me and I was like that's right I am your woman I am your man I am your everything and I that was oh yes, Yes yes I Love it. I Love it. So that was like a. 01:11:36.48 Zombi Um, that's how I feel like every day I Love that. 01:11:43.60 Jala Sense of euphoria that I've never had since because um, of course nowadays interactions on the internet are a lot different and um by and large most people that I talk to um, you know, even though they they understand my sense of self and all of that. Um, it just doesn't come up and it doesn't it doesn't play out the same way that that would. Play out, you know is it's a different kind of thing these days. So like I've never had that same sense of Euphoria. Although there was this point when my mom was in the hospital recently and I took a call from somebody and I was in dude mode at the time and I answered the phone and they thought I was a dude and they thought I was my dad and I rolled with it and I was like okay, cool you know and I was extremely happy because I was in dude mode and they they read right? You know what? you know then not who I was they thought I was my dad but you know they did read um my presentation properly. So yeah. 01:12:36.93 Zombi Well, that's nice I like that I love that for you. 01:12:41.68 Jala Even though, that's like by the way you sound like a 60 something year old dude if I don't know how I feel about that. But then again I was extremely tired so I could have sounded old as hell I don't know but ah anyways, so yeah, like ah moving and right along with other various questions. So what. Physical ways. Do you show masculinity to the world is it just in like ah wearing your baggy clothes that you had mentioned and things like that or is there something else that you do physically like I know like I said I've got a swagger I've got a certain you know, um, way of moving that's kind of Sharper. Um. 01:13:19.41 Jala Is The only way I can describe it like I have ah an an economy I have a kind of economy of movement when I'm in masculine mode and when I'm in feminine feminine mode which is most of the time I'm very like flowy and whatever and I tend to walk on the um balls of my feet that kind of thing not on my heels and. So um, yeah, it's a very different way of presenting myself and it's just in how I have body language you know. 01:13:46.50 Zombi Yeah I see I was struggling to think of how I could explain it because when it comes from look to look I will be really dressed up online obviously but when it comes to in person I'm almost always just wearing jeans and a shirt because that's comfy, no matter how I present unless I really. 01:14:03.72 Zombi Particularly feel pretty or but I want to be serveded one day. It's like um for the most part I'll do that or else I'll do what I mentioned earlier. Well' like wear a beanie or something and make it look like I have short hair but when it comes to like you know, walking around or anything I do think there's a difference and I'll be more. Ah, bouncy I Guess more bouncy and dainty is it bouncy right? word like more energetic in my step whenever I um like as opposed to presenting like male I think when I walk as more of a female I'm I'm a lot more bouny but whenever I'm walking as a male I'm a lot more. 01:14:41.11 Zombi Grounded I Guess kind of similar to how you're describing. It's not like ah not like a tough like action. You hear a walk where I'm walking around with that big slagger. But I'm walking around really I guess intentionally I'm not being super bouncy I'm not being all over the place I'm walking around with a lot of intention I'm walking around really straight and kind of like I feel solid. 01:15:00.64 Zombi But it's nothing like is is non aggressives walk if you if if you saw me walking you'd see there. There's nothing. There's not an aggressive bone in that body. But um, it's definitely different from how I walk. 01:15:13.14 Zombi Um, as a female I'm not I am not bouncy I I intentionally try not to be bouncy when I'm walking because of the jiggle but I never thought of it that way. So that's a pretty cool way. It's like what do I do differently? Oh there's something. 01:15:26.32 Jala Yeah, well and for me 1 thing that made me really happy about when I started lifting is that um before I started lifting I didn't have you know, very big shoulders or anything like that because. Unless you're training your upper body specifically as a woman you you know you don't generally have um broader shoulders and things like that like you have to work to get that kind of thing and if I was doing like a lot of running and a lot of other stuff. So my legs were really in shape but my upper body. Didn't I really didn't do a whole heck of a lot for that. So when I started lifting and I started intentionally building muscle there I started turning into a muscle hourglass which helped my sense of femininity actually because since I don't have a big chest having the broader shoulders made me an artificial hourglass out of muscles. 01:16:17.80 Zombi Oh that's cool. 01:16:18.33 Jala And that was cool. Um, but also that the broader shoulders and fitting into shirts differently and going these female Shirts. Don't fit me. It's ah it's frustrating that my arms are too big to fit into my stuff and that my shoulders are too broad but at the same time.. It also is like yeah you know like ah that's right? Yeah I got to get a bigger shirt now because I'm ripped as hell and I'm yeah and you know when I see those those broader shoulders and stuff like it makes me feel a kind of masculine euphoria for that. But also a feminine euphoria because of the muscle I. 01:16:53.99 Zombi All the euphoria. 01:16:54.30 Jala Glass So all the euphoria that's that's why it's so important to me that I train is because like it it just reinforces everything so well for me. 01:17:02.50 Zombi Yeah, it sounds wonderful for your mental health and I like I've noticed that working out's been helping me a bit so I can't wait to hopefully feel something similar. 01:17:11.35 Jala Yeah, well and then too like um your way of engaging with it will end up being different than mine and you know like that's just a personality difference. You know, like um I by default regardless of what mode I'm in and regardless of how nice I may be there is a monster under the surface and it's waiting to come and like attack. So like I have a very aggressive um, forthright. Ah I'm going to take the action that needs to be taken kind of Attitude. So ah, there's not hesitation. There's not. Any of that like I I will go you know and I will take care of whatever the crisis is I will take care of whatever the assault that is happening on whoever around me I will take it down. You know that's also why in video games. Nothing scares me when jump scares happen is because like I'm always ready for a fight. Always even in the video games. So. You know I'm sitting here and if something jumps out of me in a video game I pull out the biggest gauge shotgun or whatever I've got and I blow that crap away and I don't even blink you know because it's like I'm so I'm like that you know from just me being myself in the world in Space. So. 01:18:23.45 Jala When it comes to a video game I'm the same way. So I. 01:18:25.80 Zombi Yeah I get I'm I'm again very much the opposite when it comes to the fight or flight you got the fight I got the flight like I will scream my head off and like maybe throw my shoe and then book it. 01:18:37.85 Jala Well and what's great is that I love that your twitch live notification is like ah Zombi Lowly is ah being silly and probably screaming. Yeah. 01:18:51.10 Zombi It's It's true though. It's true. 01:18:53.80 Jala But it's it's so cute and I like wish I could pop up for more of your streams. It's just like my schedule is such that it's like if I pop in it'll be for like 5 minutes and then I got to go so it's like you can't even like you can't even yeah, don't don't assume I'm in the chat I might not be in the chat anymore because I might have to do so you know. 01:19:01.00 Zombi Oh that's perfectly fine. 01:19:10.21 Zombi Yeah, no worries I do I do that a lot too. So it's fine. Thank you though. 01:19:11.82 Jala But yeah, so so what is the biggest challenge and I think I know the answer to this question. What is the biggest challenge that you face in connecting to your masculinity. 01:19:22.77 Zombi Oh that's a good question. What are some of my challenges. 01:19:26.66 Jala I I will go ahead and tell you my answer just to um, explain to you like an easy easy way of of saying it. So for me, it's the fact that other people don't perceive it because I am not wearing masculine clothes. 01:19:40.30 Zombi Oh God I yes. 01:19:43.20 Jala I'm not doing whatever so people don't pick up on it when I am in masculine mode. So yeah, um. 01:19:47.35 Zombi All right I'm going to have to agree with you there because I'm like oh what's my challenge I'm thinking about clothes or something but no, it's just like with the walking that's a much better way to articulate it. So Yeah I. 100% with you there again like very squishy, very curvy person people see a squishy curvy Boy they're like squishy Curvy woman boobs I don't know. 01:20:07.42 Jala Yeah, well and then two that's that's part of the extra challenge I think it's even more so for you than for me because you know for me like what I get a lot of times is people are like oh you must be ah, a butch Lesbian is what people assume I am and I'm like. 01:20:20.50 Zombi Oh wow. 01:20:24.20 Jala Ah, no I might have a crush on a butch Lesbian but like I like I like masculine presenting people ah in a partner of mine but I am pan so whatever. But like I do lean I do lean towards masculine presenting individuals. So. 01:20:34.57 Zombi Oh same. 01:20:43.65 Jala Um, would I crush on one. Yes, do I feel myself to be a butch lesbian. No not at all, not at all you have got me all wrong. You know so that's like oh Wow No not not that one but like for you though your your form of masculinity is so different from mine. It's also um. 01:21:00.15 Jala Different therefore from like a large portion of at least American Society's concept of Masculinity. So That means that you've got like ah a double hit like you've got the fact that you are chesty and curvy and all of that so people are assuming things from that. And then they are also assuming from the way that you behave but the way that you behave is masculine for you. It is not masculine for other people like it's invalidated so often by other people because it's not the type of masculinity that they're expecting. 01:21:35.72 Zombi Yeah, exactly and it did take me a long time to come to terms with it because I'm like if I act like this no one will ever accept it but a lot of that like um, a lot of the being able to be online and not in person like you but like we talked about earlier is. Kind of what helped me accept. Okay, yes, this is masculine for me I am masculine whenever I am this way and it felt comfortable. 01:21:56.89 Jala Yeah, and I really wish that Breyer had been able to be on the episode too because they ah said in the um intersectionality episode when we were talking about gender presentation and things like that they are nonbinary a trans nonbinary person. But. Ah, when they are out and about in society because of the small town that they live in they tend to dress like a dude and try to pass. Dude you know, um, and so you know like their story about engaging with that masculinity and like I'm sure that they as someone assigned. 01:22:34.22 Jala Male at Birth. It would be a very very different kind of story from what you and I experience you know, just because on the femininity episode last time I was the only assigned female at Birth individual on the show and my. Situation in my engagement with E Femininity was extremely different than either of the other folks on the show. So um. 01:22:57.40 Zombi Running I can't begin to fathom how it would be for assigned male at Birth individual. 01:23:03.90 Jala Yeah,, especially like a I male a birth individual who is Trans nonbinary like that's you know that's why I was hoping to have them on but like at that. Ah, on that note, um, they will be sending me their notes about these questions and such. And I will be putting that into the show notes for this episode as well. So there's going to be like some really um, heavy duty notes for this one and I Definitely recommend that people who are listening to this take a look at those notes to see all of this other information and all of these links and everything that we're talking about adding. So um, what would you say is the moment that you had your peak connection to your masculine side your masculine energy and all of that What was like your euphoria moment Your biggest euphoria moment. 01:23:54.23 Zombi Um, it's actually bowments fortunately for me, um, the very first time was whenever I made my friend be he they be he they he he's kind of what made me feel the person that made me feel comfortable. Having the body that I have but still presenting as male or still telling people i' male or not feeling like so sort of imposure which I did feel a lot I guess um and I think the moment that really connects me is whenever people see me and they're like you're a really cute boy you're a really pretty boy and I do get that a lot whenever people. Know how I present myself with my gender and whenever I'm being kind of I guess what's a better word for baby baby is fine but whenever I'm anytime I'm being baby. These are the moments that just make me feel like it's like oh you're such a cute boy like a cute baby boy or anything like that in an endearing way I think. 01:24:48.52 Zombi Those are the moments that really make me feel peek like hell yeah I'm a cute boy just like give me all the hugs and squishes. 01:24:54.50 Jala Yeah, and you know that that reminds me like that's ah, a character character archetype for ah, certain cute boys in Anime. For example, so um, you know, anime and Manga. So That's a very familiar sense of masculinity to me. It makes sense to me. Um, maybe not so much for like broader us audience but like ah for our listeners and it's It's an anime slash Manga trope. Ah so that's like an archetype a character archetype that we're discussing here that Zombi Embodies. So. 01:25:30.25 Zombi I Like seeing it that way That's actually because like I do like a lot of anim man. Um, so I I I haven't watched anything in a while I kind of want to now again and like see that cute boy trope because I like it being described that way. 01:25:41.95 Jala Yeah, and it really is because like there's always the cute boy character in in a lot of shows not every show but a lot of shows have the cute boy character who you know is hugging a pillow and has like a candy in their mouth and you know a little tear in the eye you know or whatever and like. 01:25:55.20 Zombi Um, that's me yeah. 01:26:01.30 Jala That's a thing that's that's like an ongoing thing. There's like lots of characters that are that I can't think off the top of my head. Um, but there are I've seen them plenty I just have to go back like it's been a minute since I've watched Anie Mayor Redam amongga so you know like I would have to. 01:26:12.33 Zombi Yeah, yeah, same here. That's what I'm thinking like oh now I need to sit down look at these cute voice. 01:26:17.23 Jala Yeah I'd have to like refresh my memory on that. But yeah, there's definitely those character types for sure. But um, so yeah, some other things I wanted to talk about is about patriarchy and the negative side of Masculinity. So um, how do you feel that patriarchy. And the setup of our society Overall most affects you and your person you you personally and like specifically and sense of like your gender identity. 01:26:51.35 Zombi So strictly in the way that I look and present and that does not register with most people unless they're you know, fairly kind and understanding and they don't see black and white like if you are a man you must look like man or whatever. Um, it's It's really hard for me because I don't. 01:27:08.92 Zombi Ah, well I be. It's a patriarchy. It's hard for everyone. But it's whenever I am talking to someone like I also have a lot of um I guess attraction to people that are very masculine and very like ah like very strong leader protectee type people. 01:27:26.51 Zombi And most of these people unfortunately do end up being the same type of people there like no, you're You're a woman if you're if even if they do accept the term Nonbinary. They still look at as woman light and what makes it harder for me is I do not get that acceptance, especially but it's someone I care for deeply and I just. They're not agreeing with it. They're like no, you're wrong. This is not correct and I think it's because they're so trouted and um because of how they grew up because of the patriarchy that they can't see any other way and I'm not trying to make excuses for them. But um. Because of how it started off that way I don't get the same respect that I would if I just presented as a woman and looked like a woman all the time to them. 01:28:04.73 Jala And you know respect right? there that word that we can underline a lot because I think that that is kind of like the exact thing that is missing for everybody who isn't a Cis gender man, especially a cisgender white man like but. 01:28:19.50 Zombi But yeah, yeah, oh God yeah. 01:28:22.36 Jala You know, um that that respect that respect that treatment of the other person as a person rather than a thing or as all them dang liberals or whatever you know whatever because like a lot of the toxic masculinity is is is not all. By any stretch of the imagination but a lot of it is tied into that super conservative notion because that also is tied in with the super um puritan christianity which is part of what caused the whole gendering binary in the first place. So. You know, um, that underlined and and um, reinforced the binary and then took it up and took it as like the mantle. So um, yeah, it it kind of all ties in um to all of that like it's it's a lot. So um. I I was going to say like 1 of the other questions I have on here is how do you keep from toxic masculinity but the problem is with this question is that your form of masculinity isn't a toxic form of masculinity. So anyway, so. You don't have to worry about like you yourself do not have to worry about being that way. But what you you have to worry about is other people's toxic masculinity and how that affects you I e patriarchy. 01:29:47.78 Zombi Yeah I just I try to be hyper awarere I try. Um and I've had conversations with people about how and they don't typically believe this first how toxic mil masculinity also hurts them whenever I'm talking to like particularly the um manly men who are um super manly but bla blah. 01:30:05.46 Zombi Then I tell them so you know this is actually harming you as well like when's the last time you allowed yourself to feel emotions was the last time you allowed yourself to cry or open up or hug someone or accept a sweet soft gift without making it feel like it makes you feel less of a man. Um. 01:30:22.88 Zombi It's just more of me trying to be hyper aware and trying to make sure that I both am not hurt by that toxic masculinity and that the people that I care for are also aware and and turn ideally not hurt by it or hurt less or have better coping mechanisms for it. 01:30:38.50 Jala Yeah, absolutely and I will say when I was thinking about this question. It made me go oh man this is rough because because um, the way that I have not fit in my box made me resentful towards. Females for a very long time. Um I Still don't feel super comfortable in a group of females like you know, like say for example I went to my fiancee's um, hometown or not his hometown but like ah where all of his family lives right now and like. His grandmother and mother wanted to take me out shopping and I felt so uncomfortable because I just wanted to scream because I'm like you want to go take me dress shopping and I'm like. 01:31:26.29 Jala How much further from like me can you get but like that's that's the traditional thing you know that the the women are doing for the one who's going to be marrying their son and their grandson and so on but like boy did that feel real uncomfortable to me and I'm like I don't want to do it. We ended up thankfully not having to do it. Um, we just didn't have enough time. So thank thank the powers that be that that did not happen because I I would feel so weird and uncomfortable and also there is a vegan fitness influencer that I follow that is doing like an all women's retreat. And I was watching the little video for it because it popped up on my Instagram feed and I felt so uncomfortable looking at that because I was like some of these things I can get down with some of the rest of this I feel so like weird in like a pod and I don't want anything to do with that and it makes me super uncomfortable. 01:32:19.49 Jala You know, just even looking at it because I I don't want to be there I don't want to project into that situation I don't want to be around a bunch of women like it's It's a whole anxiety a real anxiety that I have and the reason for that anxiety is because of what I would call like toxic femininity people assuming. 01:32:38.21 Jala Ah, women assuming that because I have a body that looks kind of like their body that I am super girly and like you know, not understanding or believing me when I tell them no, That's not like I'm not here trying to get my nails done because of my man I'm drawing mine. Like first off I wouldn't have my nails done anyway. But like you know, theoretically if I were or you know like maybe I'm going and getting a spa treatment or getting something done on my hair or whatever Anyway, like theoretically if I was doing some kind of a self-care thing in a super girly kind of place and um, they're like oh yeah, you know you're going somewhere special. It's like no I just. Want to take care of myself. What the hell it doesn't have to be for a dude like everybody Assumes. It's for a dude they assume certain things about me and like when it's women a lot of times I get that way worse because like I feel that discomfort more when I'm around women because. 01:33:35.46 Jala Don't fit the box I know I don't fit the box. They are all talking and it's all nonsense to me I don't understand like I I don't I don't want to be in this situation. It's real weird. Um I feel more comfortable with guys and non-binary folks and ah, whatever than I do with women. And um, it's not so much a toxic masculinity thing Although like I've had some you know inner feelings of intense anxiety that turns into animosity just from like the anxiety factor of it. Um, it's happened in the past. But these days I I recognize over what it is I'm just really really anxious because I don't fit the box and I don't I don't live up to the expectation that's going to be put on me if I'm in that situation and it makes me upset and you know like I don't I don't like being in that situation because there is no easy way for me to explain it to people that they will register. It. 01:34:30.10 Zombi No, you would have to like sit down and have a conversation and even then it's not guaranteed that they're going to understand. 01:34:38.67 Jala Um, and so that's that's a lot of where I get into some stress. So yeah, so like think about the toxic masculinity question actually loop me back to femininity. It's so weird because when we were doing the femininity episode I kept on talking about masculinity. 01:34:55.40 Jala I guess it's like a whole compare contrast thing like it. It's ah when I'm talking about 1 It ends up bringing up aspects of the other one um by necessity because I have ah like a switch in my head that goes between the two things. So. 01:35:06.78 Zombi Yeah I think I think I do very much the same thing because I've also been you know dipping into the feminity side a lot too and I guess it's hard to talk about 1 without saying something about the other. 01:35:15.55 Jala Well because you know gender in general is just nonsense to begin with and like these are just yeah, these are just different aspects that are commonly represented and these certain things are commonly currently at least perceived as being masculine or feminine and those things change over time. 01:35:21.76 Zombi Yes, absolutely. 01:35:34.55 Jala And so forth, but you know, ah anyway, um I know and that's that's the thing It's like ah I'm just screaming every day like why? Why is this? Even why are. 01:35:40.76 Zombi Right? I mean like all of it is made up everything is made up Why can't We just be happy. 01:35:52.68 Jala Having to worry about this. Why is the you know it's like I don't have enough energy for this like why do we have to fuss about it. You know so right right? Well, that's why that's another reason I trained to burn off frustration. So. 01:35:54.76 Zombi Ah, this no just run outside and shake your fist. The guy saying well. 01:36:07.61 Zombi That makes sense. Yeah. 01:36:09.85 Jala Yeah, so okay, so what do you think would change if more people in power were somewhere other than all the way on the masculine side of the gender spectrum like if we didn't have Yeah what? What do you think would happen to the world if we had ah other folks in power like more diversity in all aspects and power. 01:36:18.56 Zombi Oh my God where. 01:36:31.32 Zombi Well, there's there's too much to say I mean I like okay that so first of all with the um with the body and ah, what was it called Body Attomy Atomic Oh my God that word body Bodily Atomic Thank you Fat automat. 01:36:44.18 Jala Autonomy there autonomy there you go? Yes, yes. 01:36:48.10 Zombi Ah, have a speech impediment. But yeah, we're just gonna we're just skip that part. But um, when it comes to that if more people understood that all bodies are Notis, especially cis white male bodies then there would be a lot better health care for starters all across the board. Um. 01:37:06.89 Zombi And I think that's one of the biggest issues I stand I kind of struggle with because I still need to see health care that is regarded like you know they still call it or at least to mine knowledge. They still call it Well a woman's check. For example I still have to get that like why are you calling it that can't We just say we're looking at my bits or. 01:37:24.32 Zombi You know the organs of my bits you know? and um I think that's one of the biggest thing that comes to my mind whenever you whenever you ask that Question. It comes to a lot of healthcare things and um, well, that's not the only thing that goes in with the body. Um, it's like okay ah. And maybe this isn't a power thing. Maybe it is a power thing because it's fashion but like I still buy men's jeans because pockets I don't like those tinyass pockets are just sorry I know how you feel about cussing but I don't like those pockets and um like I want to put up in my pockets I don't like to carry around a bag I've never liked carrying around a bag. 01:37:59.64 Zombi And if I don't have pocket space then I just end up holding my phone I end up holding my wallet and it feels weird I hate it So you know even things that go line like fashion. Everyone would have clothes that are not only very cute but functional like why? Why do you know quote women's Genes make no sense. You know. 01:38:16.81 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, it's It's the same thing for me where it's like um, what really blows my mind is when there's the fake pockets. The ones that are just sown Why Why is this here. This is stupid. 01:38:27.33 Zombi What is the reason. 01:38:33.19 Jala Yeah, it's for the fashion. Why isn't it a functional pocket like God it it surely did not cost that much more to make it an actual ass pocket. Why why. 01:38:45.70 Zombi It's uncomfortable. It's weird. It's like at that point why have anything right there I get more mad at at being there than. 01:38:46.90 Jala Yeah, well and then the pockets are so in the pockets are so shallow that if you move literally at all like your your stuff comes out of your pockets. Why why? take. 01:38:57.84 Zombi Right? And just it's a pain and there would actually you know in general there would be so much more functionality in the entire world if there were more of a um, diverse kind of you know, gendered spectrum of people in any sort of power. It would just be a much more functional world because it's not just catering. To the masculine insight. It's not just catering to 1 thing I can go into a gym and not feel like super short I think we're roughly the same size of like 5 three and a half um mom can't write on the right or you know use the elliptical because she's too short. She's like four or five feet the four Eleven five feet and 01:39:34.53 Zombi Like there would just be a lot more functional equipment everywhere not just equipment but you know just cars buildings. It's I think it's also a matter of accessibility. It would just make more sense. It would be a more functional world. 01:39:45.91 Jala Yeah, and I know this is dipping into not a gender thing but um, a recent episode of bad attitudes podcast which is a wonderful short form podcast about disability and it's called bad attitudes more or less because. Ah, people who are disabled are often shoved into 1 of 2 boxes either. They are quote unquote useless by society standards or they are looked at for inspiring stories only so like if you have an attitude that does not purport to one of these things. Then you know you've got a bad attitude about your disability if you have a concern about your disability that isn't being met or something and anyway Laura does a wonderful job on this podcast. It's like 10 minutes long and actually after the credits and stuff it's more like 8 minutes per episode and she talks about all different kinds of subjects. 01:40:36.49 Jala 1 of which recently was about like the accessibility of something like a um airbnb and somebody said is this accessible and so the response was it has a ramp and it's like well first off, there's all different kinds of ramps some of them are too steep for certain people to get up and so on. Also from the photos of this place like you can't get a wheelchair in the door get into the bed without closing you know with with closing the door because there's just not enough room in there to maneuver if the bathroom isn't set up you know for someone who has a wheelchair It's not accessible. And so on and so forth. Add infinitum and then like talking about different ways in which if people built with you know accessibility in mind. It would help everybody because the ramps that are used for wheelchairs are also used by people delivering stuff and by people who have strollers full of kids and you know like all this other stuff not just people in wheelchairs or people with you know some kind of walking issue and so you know just. Having that consideration and having somebody with more awareness somebody who you know, um deals with this on the day-to-day representing and being in a position to have a voice because that's really the thing right? You have to get the voice out there and have to get enough support behind. Whatever it is that needs to happen. 01:42:02.48 Zombi Yeah, exactly that. 01:42:02.97 Jala You know and and having that out there and so you know it's not just Gender. It is about your race. It's about you know, um, different classes of society and that is a big one that you know you were not going to find. People who grew up Poor. You know as ceos of companies very often. You know and so those voices are not heard yeah and you know you've got ah undocumented immigrants and things like that and you know like those people who are growing our food and then being abused all the time like.. There's so many different people that are not represented and you know. 01:42:38.49 Zombi Exactly and it's it's it's so what's the word of me aside from angering because it is angry I have a word for it it we live in a world that makes no sense. A lot of the time if not most of the time. And if we did have more diversity and I feel like this this isn't even strained too far from the masculinity talk I feel like if we had more diversity in in every respect if you had more people that are from all sorts of different you know classes background spectrums everything because everything kind of still caterers that America's you know. More specifically in America to you know, an ablebodied white is gender man. Um, then we're going to have a world that functions not just for those men. 01:43:15.70 Jala M. Yeah, well and then two if we had more diversity and more representation and there was a broader view by everyone in society then that would open up and free men from having to be stuck in their own little toxic box that they get stuck in when they get born. 01:43:38.30 Zombi This absolutely. 01:43:39.92 Jala You know with a penis they have a penis and suddenly this is the you know you're not allowed to show emotions. You're not allowed to do this and that you aren't taught anything about you know, like ah emotional intelligence or anything like that like there's so much that so much work that has to be done by those individuals to. 01:43:59.90 Jala Just like meet a bare minimum standard. Let alone you know to to go on from there and I know that that sounds kind of like an exaggeration but I know several folks who have told me about all the work that they had to put in just to become you know like ah, an empathetic person because like the box that they're given is so strict. A box and you know there's really like a hard line that once you cross that line and and you are no longer fitting in that box. Ah you get bullied severely you know and you get the violence you get the animosity and all of the other situations that other folks who don't fit in Boxes. Receive no. 01:44:40.90 Zombi Yeah, there goes that toxic masculinity like I By no means think all men are evil you know I Really love men. But um, you you like you said you're born with a penis and then all of a sudden you're already going to have this kind of worldly burden on your shoulders. 01:44:55.58 Zombi Because you're expected to act and be a certain Way. You cry as a baby boy that you'll have a lot of especially older people say boys don't cry or anything like that and you're expected to immediately as a child kind of suck up your emotions and that's at a very vital part for emotional um emotional growth. And it's it's head. It's It's really harmful to everyone involved by which I guess is everyone I need to say involved. 01:45:20.45 Jala Yeah, well and and the thing too is um, you have not just all of those assumptions made about you but then on the flip side if you are a cisgender white man and you're listening to this podcast. You're like. People who see me automatically assume that I'm going to be a shithead when it comes to gender and this and that because I'm a Cis gender white man and so like you know it's it's also this thing where you know they if they happen to be aware of and be working on. All of these issues in trying to do that work and trying to be empathetic and trying to break out of their bucks that they've been given then they still get flak from both sides because they get flat from the people who are putting them in the box. They're getting flack from the other people who assume that they're going to be in the box. You know. 01:46:13.95 Zombi Yeah, the assumptions go both ways and really it's a hard shake because of all of this still going on and I can't fathom it I I am not you know, assigned male and I cannot fathom being a Cis man in that sense. But um. 01:46:29.70 Zombi I Just feel like it's important to have these discussions and to be open and communicative and understanding. No matter who you are or where you stand at that time. 01:46:35.64 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely so this is a hard hard question I got for this last question and then we're going to wrap it on up if you could reclaim 1 thing from the patriarchy. What would it be. 01:46:53.67 Zombi I Don't think I fully understand the question. 01:46:57.61 Jala If you could change 1 thing about like the patriarchy ah being in power if if you could undo 1 wrong, right? 1 wrong from the patriarchy if you could fix 1 thing. 1 thing that is broken. What would that 1 thing that you. 01:47:07.28 Zombi Oh. 01:47:14.49 Jala Want to fix be. It's hard to limit it. It's hard to figure out like what's 1 thing I think for me, it would be the perceptions perceptions of other folks because the assumptions that people make. 01:47:17.46 Zombi That is hard. Um. 01:47:32.24 Jala Ah, yes, they are human but like in our society.. There's a very specific type of very toxic. Ah masculine way of looking at everything So in our particular society in the Us if people no longer had the power to assume things about other people. Um. In the the way that they do you know like if the approach to that perspective and that seeing other people was more inquisitive rather than Asumptive. You know that would be my ask because I think as much as that's not going to write. Every wrong in the universe or anything like that that is at least a good step towards seeing each other. 01:48:13.60 Zombi It Um, that is a really good stuff and it's a really good point. It makes me think like how is do you do you think there's a functional way that that could have been done or could be done. 01:48:21.25 Jala It would require a mindset shift like a cultural societal mindset shift where like the zoomers come along and they have their kids and they teach their kids that they need to ask for pronouns when they're they're seeing and they need to do this and that and like. You know the next generations it's it's Good. It's not something that I think is realistic to assume is going to happen in a lifetime. It's something that's going to take lifetimes. It's going to take generations of people who grew up with the binary dying and then being replaced by other people who had a slightly better who had it. Who taught their kids and then their kids had it slightly Better. You know it's It's a progressive thing and all of us can take steps towards making that a reality but it's going to be in how we treat other people and how we get them to listen you know and a lot of that is that empathy. And that meeting them halfway and sometimes more than halfway to get them to understand and making sure that they know that it's safe to to be vulnerable. You know? ah. 01:49:28.10 Zombi Right? It would that would take so much time. Oh my God It's so hard to and learn the things that even like you and I have learned throughout our lives especially with how you were raised and the things that um I've seen and what people have told and shown me whenever I was growing up. Um. 01:49:45.72 Zombi If We're looking at it and this as a thing like what could I reclaim Now. It's There's again, there's so many things like it would have to be something that has a lasting long-term effect like what you said, but there's so many things that's like what is the thing that would make everything. Better for everyone involved and men women non-pioneary folk. What? what?? What would be that thing and I'm just struggling like because there's the the fact is there's just too many things that need to change. 01:50:11.43 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, there are and I think that's going to end up being like a topic for that gender binary episode because like this this is all part and par parcel of the whole discussion about like. Where did the gender binary came from why it's even here. Um, you know what happens when the binary starts breaking down and like how does that actually look a lot better for literally everybody. You know that'll be that'll end up being its whole separate episode but I will leave that question open for the listeners though. 01:50:38.88 Zombi Right. 01:50:45.49 Jala So listeners. Ah, what would you do? if you could change something and it it can be I'll I'll make the question a little bit easier doesn't have to be an immediate thing. It can be like a generational What would the the 1 thing you want to help alter be. You know and in mind would be a toss-up between that whole perception thing and then also the ah diversity and power. But the problem is is that if the assumptions aren't being made then that diversity and the power would automatically be happening and that's a hard truth. 01:51:20.99 Jala That is a hard truth but that is a truth those assumptions. That's where it starts so all right I think that that wraps up are yeah that that that wraps up our episode about masculinity and Gender identity. 01:51:31.10 Zombi Oh yeah, no I'm I'm thinking for the happy that's. 01:51:40.25 Jala So ah, when it comes to folks finding you on the internet I know that you are out there in the Universe Please Zombi tell the wonderful listeners where they might be able to find you. 01:51:53.28 Zombi Oh um, well I do stream on twitch I Just play video games and I actually like to you know, go into more discussions as well. But for the most part if you want someone silly to look at who likes to scream and be weird. Ah then you can find me on. Twitch.tv/Zombiloli. 01:52:11.48 Jala Yup, yep, and of course I am found @jalachan any place that you may find me and this podcast of course is at jalachan.place. So thank you all for listening. And until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/Jala. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]