00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I've got 3 amazing guests. We have Dave Jackson (he/him) Nick also known as Triple SMoon (he/him) and Daniel (he/him). How are all of you. Lovely folks doing today. 00:21.88 Dave Doing great Jala thanks for the invite. This is awesome. 00:27.41 Jala Yeah I recently was on your show talking with you and Adam (who was on the Dick Tracy episode and the Who Framed Roger Rabbit episode of my show) to talk about Resident Evil 4 Remake and that was a lot of fun like so three and a half hours worth of fun. 00:43.11 Dave Hell yeah it was. 00:47.96 Jala Yay. So this time you get to return the favor and talk about a different game. Yay! How about you nick how are you doing. 00:54.24 Moon I am so ready I am doing very well. Thank you very much is probably the best I've been doing in a while. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me on yet again for some reason. 01:03.61 Jala Yay Exciting. And yeah I know you keep on showing up and all the cards are showing moon. Yeah. 01:11.30 Moon Yeah, you're not even inviting me just like you're starting up a zencastr somehow I find the link and just there I am I and you know you just roll with it for some reason you know. 01:19.84 Jala Right? Well, it's because you're absolutely awesome. So I'm glad to have you on the show to talk about a game because like you are such a whiz at the gameplay mechanics stuff. We're gonna be ever everbas gonna hear a whole lot out of ah Nick about the the mechanics on this game I feel. So yes and Dan. So how are you doing today. 01:41.46 Daniel I'm doing good I'm looking for talk about this guy literally played fusion probably in roughly a day and a half and then it's like I need more I so I started up dread again. 01:51.40 Jala Yeah I Actually I'm in the middle of trying to finish Fire Emblem Engage because the next media show that we're releasing is about Fire Emblem like as an IP and I don't really need to finish Engage to talk about it as an IP but I'm trying to get as far as I can I'm on like chapter 20 and of 26 and I'm like come on but then they keep on popping out more paralogues I like no ah that no so that's where I'm at right now. But ah yeah, like I do plan to play Dread after I get done with that and you know around the other assignment play and stuff I've got so um, especially now that I played Fusion again and I've got that fresh in my mind you know. 02:35.30 Dave I have played Fusion and all 3 versions of Metroid 2 in the last month so I am ah I'm Metroided out for a while I think. 02:49.90 Jala Ah, yeah I was going to say I think at this point there's no way I'm going to talk you into talking about Castlevania: SotN anytime soon because that's a Metroidvania. Well, it's a Metroidvania. It's just not Metroid anyway, well we'll talk about that off there anyway. So. 03:07.69 Jala So yeah, today we are talking about Metroid fusion and that's going to be super super fun. But first a word from our sponsors our sponsors today equal jack our newest subscribers. So thank you Jack for ah patronizing this show. And you can also be like Jack by going to k o hyphen f I dot com slash fireheart media and either dropping us a 1 ne-time donation or subscribing yes, coffee has patron tiers just like Patreon and there's extra stuff for subscribers and in all donations. Are given a shout-out on the show and are greatly appreciated. You can also write and review us on your podcasting platform of choice. It gives me lots of Warmr fuzzies to read each and every one of them and if I don't see it. You can also just send it to me direct and I will be excited. Everybody here knows that because I I do I i. Cheer and I go oh my god this is so wonderful. Anyway, admin is over and it is time to talk Metroidd. So ah, first things first is our spoiler policy for the show which is. 04:20.22 Jala Most of this is going to be spoiler. But we're going to do a little bit of overview in the very beginning talking about just what this is and a little bit about the production and everything and then we're going to get into gameplay mechanics and narrative all of which is just going to be Spoiler Territory. It's a short game play it. That's my opinion on the matter any objections. 04:43.10 Dave No, but although I will say like yeah of of the Metroid games I think this one is one of the more spoilable Metroid games. 05:10.68 Daniel Yeah, well mean it. It has a narrative going through which is not a thing that I mean you have narratives in like the previous ones but like you have talking which is like a new thing for this particular title. 05:27.49 Jala Yeah, yeah, so for sure this one is um, ah has like some degree of narrative to it that is spoilerable and anyway if that is of of a concern to you about this game that is 21 it is legal to drink oh my god it was. 05:44.43 Jala 2002 release. Wow. Okay, so um, if you are so worried about the spoilers on this legal to drink video game then stay tuned for the spoiler wall but let us talk about this so it is a 2002 game boy advance game developed by Nintendo r and d one. That is the team that developed super Metroid it was published of course by Nintendo and you can currently play it actually on a modern system via the Nintendo switch they have their Nintendo online. And you have to have the expansion pack for that to be able to play it. But if you have the online subscription and you pay for the extra expansion pack subscription then you can get access to the Metroid game on your switch. Otherwise you can emulate it. So so yeah. And when it first came out. It was rated a 9.5 by Ign a 9 by Nintendo Life 92 on Metacritic its praise for its gameplay controls graphics and music but criticized for its shorter length and also people complain that it was hard. So. What do y'all think about that. 06:56.70 Dave Um, it's in oh I was just going to say it's interesting that it got criticized for a shorter length because like 5 to 8 hours seems like this sweet spot for Metroid games like. A lot of them are this long so I don't really get what the deal. What the big deal is with this one. 07:12.39 Jala Right? right? for me too. It's like the amount of time that I spent with this game didn't overstay its welcome but it also didn't feel like I got short changed and that might also be in part because of some of the difficulty where like I had to go back and relearn you know Redo bosses and stuff until I learned their tricks and such but you know even with my particular level of play skill I Still don't feel like it was too much. 07:45.29 Daniel The main thing is I think the problem with like what people think the problem is with length of it is. It's it's that like super in particular is direct Predecessor You had a lot more area to explore it feels like. Like if everything you like and rightly so feels more contained infusion because I mean space station as opposed to entire planet I Think that's it's less like the length of the story and more like it feels smaller. If that makes any sense. 08:18.90 Jala Yeah, well there's there's several points in this game where it takes you off on these different mission because there's something this new about this one is that it has like a mission based system. So it's not like just go places and bang your head on it until you figure out where the place you need to go is this one actually like gives you direction and tells you go over there and do this thing and then go over there and do this thing and in a lot of those later sections like you're revisiting spots that you've been before which is normal for Metroid but like um, on assignment and that's a little bit. Different and it feels a little bit um a little bit I don't know that they they increase the difficulty of the enemies in the area when you revisit those areas so it's not like it feels um, less difficult or something but like. I don't know it doesn't feel like there's as much that you're able to uncover on your second run through sections does that make sense. 09:14.16 Moon I think I think when until recently like even though I love this game and I've played it dozens of times. It wasn't until preparing for this podcast I actually went out my way to 100% complete the game like believer or not I don't hundred percent most Metroid games. But I figured I should you know at this point and I think that in of itself. It doesn't feel that sure and you know just like if you go just by the raw numbers. It really isn't that short but the but the way that. I guess we'll talk about this later but the way it's kind of like concisely divide into this sort of almost like mission like structure where you're just kind of like go go go from you know linear location to linear location when you finish and you do finally have free reign to go and like collect all like the items you missed. They're all almost exclusively in these like little puzzle rooms that kind of made it feel extremely brief like in terms of completion like like I don't want to say it was unsatisfying to complete. But it's the Metroid game that I felt like I got the least out of completing it of the 3 or 4 that I have completed. 10:24.10 Moon Just in that way like it felt like like less compared to you know, 100%ing Metroid Zero Mission or Metroid Dread for example in my opinion. 10:36.28 Jala Dave do you have any thoughts on that. 10:40.44 Dave Oh I'm I'm not a completionist by any stretch I beat Metroid games at like 40 to 50% completion regularly. So I'm more power to moon for 100 percenting any Metroid game. 10:54.70 Jala Yeah, you and I finished at the same completion rate 46% for both of us. So like that means that I went out and I got a couple of little extra areas but I wasn't like avidly searching for every last little nook and cranny and then you know, backtracking through all of the sectors I was only. 11:13.77 Jala Coincidentally getting the extra stuff that I found along the main line that I was you know going on for the missions. So um, yeah, if you're mainlining this. You're only going to get like 46% completion or maybe even a little bit less if you don't go out of your way to look for stuff. So. 11:29.28 Dave Yeah I'll be sure to talk about like there's a reason that I don't do a lot of secret hunting in Metroid and I will talk about it when we get into mechanics for sure. Yeah. 11:37.85 Jala Sure sounds good. Let's let's talk about what's happening in this game shall we we didn't talk plot yet. So ah, that we said there's there's a story guys but like we didn't actually mention what that story was so let's go there. So so. 11:53.33 Jala This is exploring sr 91 with a survey crew from biologic space laboratories bsl parasitic organisms called x attack her her ship crashes and Bsl recovers her body defined her suit has tasked to be surgically removed because it's totally infected with x parasites. So. Bsl cures her with Dna from the last Metroid who conveniently were natural predators of the x and sends her suit off for study at the lab and then ah moon you added also but the suit becomes autonomous and attacks and infects the station. So. Ah, that's where the plotline comes in um samus having her suit surgically pulled off of her body is told hey some shit happened. Go fix it and she has to go and do that because like all the bsl people what they're all dead. At this point right? or they're almost all dead. 12:50.10 Moon Yeah, like to like I guess to give people like just a little bit of context for this when when they say like the cert resurgically removed. It's kind of like part of Metroid that her suit is part of her being in a way so like removing it removing it from her or removing parts of it from her. 13:09.54 Moon Does like involve like there's there's a there's a story reason for it that does involve like having to surgically remove like pieces of her suit like in a way and it makes her and it gives her a completely different look for this game as well. 13:20.22 Dave And a little bit of other context since I just played all 3 versions of Metroid two s r three eighty Eight is the planet from Metroid 2 where what you did in that game is destroy all the Metroids. So. It's kind of like part of the consequences of what you did in that game. Is what's going on in this game. 13:40.48 Jala Where the exs are running rampant because there's no meoids to stop them maha Ha Ha Maybe nature has a balance to it whoops. Yeah, and this is secretly like a climate climate an environmentalist game series. We didn't know about but um, yeah, so. 13:57.77 Jala The the way that I read and I'll I'll go ahead and talk about this here the way that I read the samus having her suit surgically removed was complete body horror like I was just like does this mean that she was just melted in her suit and they had to pull the pieces off of her and she still got her helmet on. And all the rest of her is just like this wild looking blue organism and she just like ah being a badass is just like well all in a day's work. Got to go kill those x now I I was just like wow um, especially since Samus a woman that was like a big thing because. You know, growing up the way I did with all the toxic masculinity and everything the beauty myth being so prevalent like you know a woman being disfigured let alone having her whole body torn up like that. That's pretty wild you know and like for her to just be like whatever and then move on like. Later I found out from everybody that oh yeah, actually it's just because she can like Sailor Moon into you know henching transform into her outfit and like the the armor just appears but like I didn't have that context at that point so when I booted it up I'm like oh shit and then she's. You know doing her thing and I'm like wow the fact that she is no so nonchalant about this happening is just amazing like to me I I just thought about okay she doesn't even look like a human anymore like if she were to try to pull that helmet off there would be nothing in there but goo you know that's what I was thinking. 15:27.92 Jala So it was completely a horror game to me and then like the music and the pursuit elements of this game and all the other different aspects that we'll get into with the gameplay all lent themselves to me feeling that way to where I'm like that's got to be what's going on here because this game's got horror in it. So. 15:43.30 Moon I will say for what it's worth. It's not just you Jala I don't think anyone realized the at least in America really realized the nature of Samus' suit when fusion came out like yeah like the like the first time you see anything that like sort of could resemble her just like. 16:03.24 Moon Hen sheening in and out of her suit is in 0 mission and even then it's not like 100% clear like what's going on like Metroid other m or sorry no Metroid prime 2 I think is the first one where you see her explicitly kind of standing there and then her suit just kind of like fades onto her person. And then of course meward othertherm just made it wholesale like oh yeah, she's totally just She's not doing. She's not doing a magical girl pose but she's totally just doing a Salem room transformation inter. So and like I'm sure there's stuff like in the manga that covers that et etc. But as far as anyone at least I guess as kids here in the safe when fusion came out. I don't think it was ever really made clear like what it meant that oh I couldn't take my suit off because you know my nervous system was locked up or whatever. 16:48.11 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, well, that's good to know because I was like am I The only one who read it like this this whole time and like I'm just a weirdo for immediately going to body horror. You know, maybe that's it. That's what is. 16:58.89 Moon It is body horror and in a sort of way like it like it is something that is part of her body has been for most of her life and suddenly like it's kind of like. 17:12.99 Moon Largely ripped from her and made her much weaker than she was before like I I would say that she probably felt it was body or even if it's like a bit different from how we think of body horror. You know. 17:18.49 Dave Yeah, it's it's kind of a meme now to like make fun of Metroid games for finding ways to reset Samus at the beginning of every game and make you get all the powers again, but it it makes more sense in this game than it does in a lot of others. 17:37.43 Dave Like oh in the beginning of dread. She gets hit really hard and loses her all of her abilities. That's it. But this one they you know she had everything surgically removed. It makes sense to me. 18:34.86 Jala So one of the things about the narrative at the beginning of this game that we didn't mention is that. The reason that she's got to go and that the reason why the X are destroying this whole space lab and everything is because they have like all of the infected pieces of armor and they take them to this space lab so they can analyze them except then. The armor just starts to move around and do its thing because it's possessed by the you know possessed by it's ah infected by the X Paraites. So um, you know that is the big threat and then Samus is like they can threaten the whole of existence because I am so powerful and so we've got to go stop the X and and that's. That's the setup of this. So right, right? right. 19:26.13 Moon Samus just like I'm so base this is terrible. This is terrible. There could be another me around like you're talking about literal Gigga chat out here. It's going to destroy the universe If it's not me. 19:41.24 Daniel Yeah, and she's the only one who can go because thanks to the ah Metroid Dna she's the only person immune to the x. 19:47.40 Jala Yes, yes, that is also a crucial element of this. So yeah, ah, let's slide over to talking about because we'll we'll put a pit in that um narrative for now until after the spoiler wall because that's just set up stuff. So. Let's talk about the programming and design elements. So this was programmed by using warrior land 4 as a reference rather than old meroid titles and it shares an engine ah with that game but it doesn't have any other kind of common Dna like there isn't um, there aren't mechanics and stuff that really look. Anything like warrior land force. So I don't know that's that's just what they did I think um r and d one were the ones who worked on warrior land for so they just took the last game they worked on and used that engine to make this one so ah, voice acting had been planned but it only ended up as part of the warning announcements at. Different points in the game when there's just like a you know, warning warning overload kind of stuff. Um due to the Rom cartridge limitations and that's like the only. 20:53.30 Daniel Yeah, you you think the low energy warning is bad these ah those are ah those are annoying. 20:59.24 Moon I Got to say this idea that they wanted to voice act everything flabbergast me because there is so much text in this game like I I don't know if like I don't know. Maybe there was something else going on 2002 that I don't know about, but it's very hard to imagine that at any point in Development. They sat there and said oh yeah, we can totally fit all of this dialogue on the Carridge. So I'm wondering if like since like you know since the computer you know is you know could could arguably be diagetically text only maybe like that. Maybe what they were thinking is they were just going a voice like all. Other dialogue from other characters or something in there because I can't imagine them like ever thinking they could fit all that text onto with voice. 21:44.85 Jala Well and honestly for me I would not have appreciated having a voice for samus in all of her monologues because. As you go throughout the station and this isn't a spoiler or anything as you go throughout the station. There's different sectors and as you're in the elevator going from 1 sector to the other There's just points where Samus is just thinking. She's reflecting on 1 or another aspect of what's going on right now and ah. As she's doing that. There's just this whole like you know presentation of text where she's you know, thinking things through as she's going to the next section of action and so. For me that would kind of break it to hear a voice for samus especially since this is like her internal monologue like I don't need that to be voiced. You know so for me like I'm fine I'm absolutely happy that they didn't have voice with this I think it works better without it honestly. 22:44.75 Dave Yep, no voice acting is always better than bad or distracting voice acting so. 22:51.81 Daniel I mean or and around this time this was like when voice acting really was like people were starting to like start thinking about like really booking you into games because ah have the first one where it aware it was like it seemed like they like. Tried to take voice acting seriously was probably around this slang like file fantasy 10 roughly there I mean there were stuff before then of course but like this one was like okay we actually need to like put some like put some money behind this and not just like get up pun get a couple of extras who are like looking for like a quick gig to ah come in and record. 23:34.52 Moon Yeah, and just to like give just to give like ah an example of that like a castlevania curse of darkness for the playstation 2 and Xbox that came out just a few years after this I don't remember how many years but they actually had a proper like anime dubbing studio. Do the? Ah boy do the voice work for that like just to give an example of how far just just a good comparison because remember syphonyium the night was like what so you know was in 97 and that literally sounds like it's it was recorded in someone's bathroom right? like with the first take on everything and then just like not even a decade later. Ah, roughly around this time a little bit after you suddenly have Oh yeah, we have like an actual studio that's responsible for you know, actual proper voice acting and like you know film like media like you know doing the V a for video games. 24:22.17 Jala Yeah I was actually just thinking about symphony of the night and how bad the audio is in there and I'm like I mean granted, that's kind of part of its cheesy charm in that particular game. 24:34.50 Jala Um, and people like have grown to love it. But every time I I go back and I play that game I still cringe at like certain parts where I'm like God they this is really like this is not This is not well done guys like it's just not. So anyway, that's what we've got for those elements. Um insofar as the artwork and stuff leans into horror more. So um, we already talked about the fact that samus has her suit and her suit has been infected by the X and so she's disempowered and now there's a suit. In the space lab that is possessing all of her powers and everything and they use this. Um you know body double horror you know disempowerment you know, stalkery kind of situation to give it like a really spooky vibe the way that they illustrate the. Critter that is inhabiting Samus suit is very very horror I I will put a link to an image of the essay X in the notes for everyone to take a look if you do not already know what this little critter looks like but that was spooky as hell when I was like because I would when I was playing this game. I was in college I was working full time going school full time and I would play this with little earbuds in my ears on my tiny little gba asp in bed in the dark and so to have it in my ears and have the creepy music offsetting you know music in then just like see the creepy s a X and have the whole pursuit elements and at that time I hadn't been playing any horror games I wasn't a horror game person at that point like I've played so many since then but that was really my first title that had horror elements that I really was digging. You know so it was very markedly spooky for me. 26:25.68 Moon Um, I'm pretty sure that I mean not only was you know I was 12 when I played this game right? 2002 and not only did it like give me nightmares and also just like fear of going to sleep because I Legit thought like the sex was going to come into my room and get me or whatever. But I'm pretty sure like it wasn't until I was like maybe 20 where I stopped like covering my eyes during that close up shot like that that freaking me out back when I was again, it was like. 26:53.15 Jala Yeah, and that that close up is definitely the one that's going to be in the show notes. So yay. 27:06.65 Daniel Yeah, because it's just like the power soup of in like zooms in on like you can see through the visor and it's just like ah almost like the blind Seer eyes looking out from it is just like. 27:19.73 Jala Well, they are just so wide and just like um you do get the feeling that they are predatory eyes that they don't blink you know like Snake eyes. You know you you get that kind of like dead eye look. There's not even like a pupil or anything. It's just like glowing eyes. 27:39.43 Jala In a face You can't see a mouth. You see a little bit of a nose and it's just like the surreal way that it's illustrated with the lighting and such just really makes it look like this isn't a person this is ah, an entity and this entity is merciless. You know. 27:53.99 Dave Yeah I'll be honest I got no horror vibes from this this shot it happens once in the game as far as I remember so like I just didn't get much from that. But what I did get from the Sa X is not only the parts where like you come in contact with it. But you're constantly like. You're there like right after it was there and so you see like the wake of its destruction and that plays into like the horror of the essay x just as much as what it looks like or what it's actually like when you have to deal with that firsthand. You know. 28:27.45 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely So we'll put a pin in that we'll come back to that I know we're going to be hanging out on that for a while. Ah, let's talk a little bit about the music so it was designed to be serious and ambient rather than being Melody based because Hamano did not want to write. 28:46.23 Jala Did not want the music to be annoying sounding and um the way that they made it made the music where it is kind of more on the ambient side and it's you know those high keys that just kind of like increase your attention while you're listening to it but it's not. Super intrusive for the most part. Um that works really really well with again like the creepiness of the s ax wandering around this station and the fact that you are disempowered which you are very cognizant of you know as you start this game and you're like Wow I can't do anything so. Meanwhile this critter can do all of these things so thoughts on the music. 29:28.61 Dave Yeah, that yeah, the I so I see that quote that they wanted to be serious and ambient and not melody based and I just that was not my experience or my takeaway with the music in this game. There's a bunch of heroic melody themes playing in this game. Um, especially as you're going through the space station. There are parts the more effective parts for me are when the music drops away entirely and you're like oh shit like okay, what's happening now because the absence of music is just as scary as some you know, ah creepy ambient music which there is some. Of course. Ah, that's kind of Metroid's thing they have big like heroic themes and then they also have just you know creepy alien vibes as well. So I remember like the melodies from this much more than I remember ambient. You know environments. But also when the music drops away. 30:27.64 Jala Yeah, when the music drops. That's definitely a significant part but for me like the one track I actually have the soundtrack for this and um, like I listen to it a lot but like the one track that really I think of all the time is the the kind of. You know, do do do you know, kind of like you know, high high key warning sound like you know you're on edge kind of thing that's like the only one that I actually ever have in my head and that's the one that's consistently in my head whenever I think about this game. 31:04.65 Daniel Yeah I know that 1 is mostly it because I remember that that's the track that stuck with me as well as far as like the ambient noise. Um, but it is also like the heroic tracks do play a lot throughout the game like when whenever there's like a big thing going on. Um the other one that really stands out to me is whenever the s a X is in the room with you where it is just like a almost like kind of like almost an echo Chamber you just hear like the footsteps of it walking around before like it's easy or anything. 31:35.30 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and to be fair like on the replay that I did for this I had the music turned way down. Ah, because I was mostly playing when my husband was asleep and so I didn't want to have it like Cranked. You know all the way up and I didn't want to bother trying to find my headphones so we didn't We just didn't do high high volume music Moon. What do you think. 31:56.99 Moon Um, I my take on this is forars when when I was a kid never in 1000000 years what I haveve noticed that this was ambient or different from other video game music like it was just video game music with video game as tunes I could um and all that stuff. As an adult looking back on it I think they wanted and they tried to make more ambient tunes and there are some like the ones you pointed out but it feels like what's going on is that I guess because of like hardware limitations. They couldn't make like truly dynamic like ambient stuff. So what you end up having are like songs that base with the sole exception of you know the you know the the classic like you know escape theme or whatever you know which does show up at some point in this game like like for the most part like you'll have songs that there are like a bunch of like. Dispa melodies aren't related to each other at all. So like you'll have like a song and it'll start out with like you know like dun du dun du dun du dun and then like and then like 10 seconds later you'll be like a whole different song or whatever like it like you'll hear like little like notes or like late motifs or whatever. And they'll play once and they'll move on and it'll just be like 4 minutes in a track of just these completely unrelated like little musical stings almost like just kind of like playing in sequence which I found kind of strange I don't dislike it like I do remember a lot of those songs but it ah I don't think it really strikes what most people would think of with ambient music today and video games like with the exception of like some of those like you know bits that were bought brought up by all of you. 33:38.49 Jala Yeah, it sounds to me like um, a fair way of saying it would be like it's It's kind of leaning into quote unquote ambient the way that it leans into horror you know like it's not really a horror game you know, but it's leaning into it a bit and it has like action themes because it's an action game but it also has some stuff That's a little bit more ambient or you know as close to ambient as they were going to get on the hardware that they were using. 34:07.90 Dave Yeah, it's It's helpful to remember that this is a game boy advance game which is not um, not really capable of all types of dynamic sounds coming out of it. You know so they tried in some places like definitely agree with what moon Said. It's just ah, the the stuff that sticks with me is either the full Hero or the no music at all, you know. 34:31.66 Moon It's like if this was oh sorry I was say saying like like if this was like an actual movie you would he where that was trying to go for a more ambient sound. You would hear a lot of like the little like snipped bits of these tunes throughout. It's just that they'd. Have more freedom to kind of like place them a bit more intentionally as opposed to oh you're running around so like 10 of these things are playing in a loop or whatever. 34:57.46 Jala For sure. So um, something that I wanted to ask was as far as Metroid dread is concerned so the name dread makes me think that there's going to be horror elements in that one. Also I only played a smidge of it. Are there. Any. Anything that looks like horror is there anything like Dna related between like the tone they're shooting for in this game and then what they did in dread at all I heard laughter. So I'm I'm looking forward to this response. 35:29.37 Daniel Ah, that there is an element of that. Um, like if you if you think of like the SAX sequences in fusion. There are encounters with ah enemies that are very similar where it's like hard to if they're not totally invincible but they're very tough. Um, you basically have to like So yeah, the Emmys you have you have to strategize mostly you're evaing them until you can get something that'll actually be able to damage them so you have to like. 35:46.38 Jala The EMMIs right? 36:00.90 Daniel And depending on how far along you are they can they some of them have like special powers that can build that can just ah, knock you for a loop or like their environments are such like you have to go through a water area where you don't have the gravity soup but this thing moves just as fast underwater as it does on land so there there is like kind of a cat and mouse kind of game where it's you know when you're going into like an area they patrol. It's not. It's not it is like kind of like a this set area is where it patrols and that's it but it is kind of like the entire time you're there. It's like we could be around and like if you just move around. It will like if it's nearby. It will like hear you and like start moving towards you. So if there there is that horror element the but the body horse stuff. Not so much well a little but that's getting into like some late game developments. 36:53.49 Dave Yeah I'm glad you mentioned the fact that you know exactly when they're going to happen. So jalla imagine if you're playing Metroid fusion and you know exactly when the essay x is going to come and you know exactly how to leave the area where the essayx can't follow you. And that happens like 12 times throughout the game. So. It's not really scary because you know exactly when it's going to happen. It's like it'd be like if I said hey Jolla I'm going to jump scare you in 5 4 3 2 you're you're not going to be scared by whatever I'm going to do. You're ready for it. Jala you're a bad example. It's like all right moon I'm going to jump scare you in 3 You know it's it's kind of like that so the dread even though they named the game dread. There's very little horror element to it in my opinion and I'm someone who gets scared quite easily. 37:49.20 Jala Well, it should be noted for people who are listening that Dread is a direct sequel to this game. So um, that's why we're mentioning it. 37:55.85 Moon Yeah, the the only thing I would add to everything y'all have said is that I think the reason forars I agree I do agree that dred just really doesn't quite reach that horror level at all I think the big difference is that because dread. Dreads dread tries to make the horror formulaic for the reasons that were stayed like you have to go into specific rooms where the emmy can attack you and is strange because the the actual like video game technology that's powering the emmys allows them to have a much more diverse. Set of tricks that can make the encounters feel a bit more dynamic and require you to think on the fly a little more complexly which is you know you contrast that to the Sa X where every encounter is scripted but you don't really know when it is it just kind of happens you have no idea how to escape. Like there's much stronger of a feeling of dread in fusion than there is in Metroid dread and it's something that I really hope they elaborate on I really think that if they wanted to keep keep it that keep it horrifying it was they shouldn't have had like the designate emmy rooms. They should have just had it. 39:10.24 Dave Yeah, it feels like you're playing 2 different games. 39:10.35 Moon Be something that could happen to you throughout the game in my opinion. Yeah. 39:13.40 Jala Yeah, that they're just roaming. Yeah yeah, yeah Gotcha gotcha. So um, now we are approaching swiftly approaching the spoiler wall so I will actually open enough to let all of you. Give like just a general impression general summary of what you think of this game having replayed it like what did you think about it. Originally what do you think about it now general thoughts on this and then we'll go past the spoiler wall and get into the weeds. So Daniel you first. 39:46.90 Daniel Oh let's see ah the main thing about fusion was that it was new Metroid content forars. Yeah, you didn't have anything since super Meoid and I play that a lot like quite a bit in it just enjoyed it in Bensley. This game when I played it was like okay I'm getting more Metroid I did like run into that like feeling of like okay this it's smaller is it which isn't it's both true and not in some ways but it like. It's a limitation of it. You know is on the advance you know, of course it's going to be like just ah, not as huge as like super Meoid feel as huge as supermetoid did um and like coming back to it now is just like it's still fun like I I played through fusion a lot when it came out. And like going through this latest run through is it was like oh I still have a lot of the muscle memory I remember like this I know where the I know where the saxencounters are I know like how to beat this boss still died a bunch but but yeah, overall just just a ton of fun. It's really good. 41:01.58 Dave Yeah, so I'm old enough to have grown up playing superMetroid but I didn't play that this was the first Metroid game that I played and I kind of set my expectation I think for how Sama should feel to control and I still much prefer the way. Gba sawist controls to anything else. Um, you know dread is a ah separate thing that's twenty years later basically so I still love the way this game feels to play and I love running around jumping shooting all of that stuff the action. Um for all of the complaints about. You know the lack of getting lost and exploring into you know, unknown territory and stuff which is somewhat true I don't totally buy that in this game but it is really fun as an action game and it feels great to control and I still feel that way. There are some things that I'll talk about a little bit later that make me like just not enjoy this as much as my favorites in the series. Although this would be easily in my top 5 Metroid games probably number 3 if I have to do an off the dome ranking of the the official Metroid games. You know. Ah, am two r is awesome but Nintendo didn't make it. Um, so I really like this game I like playing it. Ah what? Ah what Daniel said the the s ax encounters I know where they are. They're still tense I'm still frantic when they happen so they're still effective and ah. For as much as I personally don't care for Metroid not don't care for is the wrong thing. The wrong word don't care about Metroid lore. It's just not super interesting to me this game has one of the more interesting stories of all of the Metroid games that I've played that sticks out in a positive way too. So overall I mean I like this game I'll I'll always go to bat for it because I think it gets unfairly bashed around video game discourse land. You know. 43:09.75 Moon Metroid Fusion was a first for me in a whole lot of ways. It was my first Metroidvania it was my first Metroid game. It was still one of the only real like horror adjacent things I've touched, I don't really play horror games that much. It's also like my first capital A action game in a lot of ways like I played a lot of Mario and Zelda growing up but like Dave I was old enough to play Super Metroid but I just never did. My first exposure to Samus was in Smash Brothers 64. I replay games a lot, especially more recently. But I have never played replayed a game as many times I've played Metroid Fusion. I'm pretty sure I played it around 30 times at this point and revisiting it this year just like as someone who has a much more keen eye for paying attention to like you know action mechanics and just like. Themes and storytelling and video games and so on there is so this game is so rich ya like there like we'll talk about more of the discourse later but you know yes it is much more linear. It is much more restrictive. It has less of a number of the things that people love from Super Metroid but there is still so much here to pull from both the gameplay side and like the atmospheric side and I really feel that people just kind of for whatever reason they just I actually will put some this on the game. But. You know people just don't see it I Guess you know in a lot of ways. But there's lots of there's a lot to pull out of it if you just pay attention is how I feel and it's definitely gone up in my ranking after my recent replay is I'll put it that way. 45:11.80 Jala Awesome! Awesome I'll save mine real quick because I want to let both Dave and nick talk about the things that they do and then I'll say my little summary about my old play in my new play. So Dave I'll go to you first you make. Content on the internet and we already talked about me being on your show recently. Ah for resident evil for remake but please tell the listeners about tales from the backlog and other stuff you make. 45:43.30 Dave Thank you Jala! Thank you first of all for inviting me. Um, and yeah so I do I have a podcast called tales from the backlog and it is a weekly backlog games review show. So Jala was on with Adam Bucceri talking about RE4R. But that's an outlier because most of my episodes are not for current games. It's just me playing stuff in the backlog or you know as I'm always replenishing the but the backlog and the the new steam sales and stuff playing stuff like that. So every episode just a quick little pitch. Um. We go you know indepth not unlike this episode we're on right now and then I do the spoiler wall thing in every single episode of my show so that if you have not played the game that we're talking about such as re 4 remake or disco elysium or 13 sentinels and trying to think of very spoilable games. You can still tunic. There's another one you can still listen to my show find out what makes these games special or not special in some cases without worry of being spoiled I wanted to make you show that everyone can listen to regardless of how you feel about spoilers so that is tales from the backlog. Um, I also do another show I don't advertise it much. It's called a top three podcast. It's top 3 lists with my three best friends from high school and we've been doing top 3 s together for like 25 years now so we just turned it into a podcast because that's what ah, that's what bored guys in their thirties do apparently? 47:12.36 Jala Well, it's kind of like The Level which I'm also on from Duckfeed. That's like a show that Cole and his college buddy started way back in the day when he was working like the radio network at the college. So that's what that grew out of and here we are today. 47:30.82 Jala Don't ask how I got on that show. Maybe it's just because I'm a forceful personality who's just like "I have opinions." 47:26.79 Dave Um, yeah I'm coming on the show next week get ready. 47:47.50 Moon Ah, hello I have a thank you Jolla for having me on too I want to say that um and Dave everything Dave said about his show is correct. It's very good. You should check it out. Um anyway I have a self a selftitled a Youtube channel called triple smoon spelled like it sounds and the main thing I do on there is a kind of a commentate long play series called mortal skill play where I play an action game could be a hack and slash game could be a Metroidvania it could be any sort of actual aid game. I play through it at its hardest difficulty with with newbie friendly commentary where I kind of break down how the game works demonstrate it with the intention being to show that anyone can play these games because I have way too many very cool, very capable friends. Who think that they're not good enough to play action games or they're not good enough to play hard mode in games and I kind of want to break that down in maybe a bit more friendly of a way than like going on to game facts and having people yell at you to get good or whatever. So um, if you want to check that out. Triple smoon I am on. Twitter Youtube and Patreon all at that name. We also have a Discord Community server so if you want to join that then we'd love to see new people. Thank you. 49:21.10 Jala Daniel's just not currently making anything other than this appearance on this show but yes listeners should check out both Nick's triple s moon very awesome stuff like I've I've just watched Nick. Stream stuff and I'm he's just sitting there and casually having these conversations and doing just this wild stuff on the screen and I'm just like oh my god I don't even know what's happening. Maybe I'm all I'm looking at it like what's going on and it's like oh you are confused old granny. 49:54.57 Jala Let me explain to you very very politely and nicely and clearly what's happening right now and how I did that by pushing these buttons. Yeah, it's just amazing and then of course Dave's a show is the best and not just because I was on it. Dave's show was the best before. Um. You know I just I just happen to pop up because I I do that thing sometimes but yeah, definitely everybody should check out those things and there will be links to those things of course in the show notes. As for my opinion of Mentorid Fusion so I already mentioned before this was the first horror adjacent. Type of thing that I played it was actually I I think I had played some of Metroid to I rented it once and I was just like this is a very different game from the other types of games that I am playing because you know like I'm I'm playing like mario games and stuff not like shootmans. So I was like. What's going on I don't even know and then I don't know like I played it once and then I I didn't ever see it in the rental place again. So I don't know if the copy got broken or what but I never got to play it again after that I didn't have an s in nes until way late in its cycle. So I skip from. A random bit of mentroid to once to fusion and that was ah really my first time actually messing with a Metroid game and um, having played castleylvania games and stuff I liked it a lot and this one in particular when I first played it. It was super creepy. It was super cool and I I don't know somewhere after the point that I played this game was the point where I was like um, self-conscious about playing video games and oh I don't know if I can play that game. But like at this point I was banging my head against this game so much when it came out and like you know, very tiredly playing after working and going to school all day and all this other mess and you know all my 2 hours of sleep when I would get naps between everything and that would be like my sleep for the day. Um, and I just remember. The feeling of accomplishment that I had every time I actually went up against something and actually managed to beat it and I'm like oh my god I finally killed that boss I've been sitting on that bos for how many days now or whatever. Um, so so there were a lot of really interesting and fun feelings with that and that was also the first time that I saw. Like a female character in a video game that was like whoa. She's badass like wow samus is is some good stuff there I want more of that please? So um, that was my initial impression coming back to it now and playing it now. Um partially because I have like. Ah, very limited amount of time in the first place but also um, you know trying to play it for the show and all this other stuff I was really glad for save states now to go back it to the same point and go run back to the boss and go through the whole thing again I could just save it like at the beginning of the boss battle and redo it that way that was a lifesaver for me. Um, definitely I'm I'm a safe scum terrible person. So you know that that's that but like ah coming back to it now has been interesting because I have played so much horror media since that I wasn't nearly as like. Spooked out by this game as I was the first time I played it at all I think in part because playing it on the switch. It's a bigger screen so like it looks more pixelated and not as cool as it did on the teeny tiny little gbasp screen and um. Again I didn't have the headphones in to have it right in my ears with the you know offsetting music or the the tense music sections. Um and all of that the actual gameplay holds up well and the. Ah, just segments with samus and the computer talking and the the overall narrative and stuff all of that is still just as fun as it was originally we will get into it but I'm kind of iffy on some of the bosses. We'll talk about it. Overall though I still really really enjoy this game. It is its solid game. It is memorable. It is super fun and yeah, like definitely more people should check this out and not get scared off by anything you have heard from other people. 54:19.30 Moon I just want to say something to anyone who's stopping before the spoiler wall before they leave right? If if you're leaving because you want to play this game before you listen for for starters, really good you you should play this game. It's a pretty cool experience. But also if if you're emulating it. For the love of god turn on color correction please like I cannot highlight how much this game was designed for the unlike game boy advance and how much more like moody and ambient. It looks if you play with color correction on on a modern display like if you're playing on Nintendo switch online. It's already color corrected. But like playing on a device right now where I can just like quickly switch between color corrected and uncorrected as it is night and day. It's like I'm I'm not going to say that it's like unplayable. You shouldn't play like if you have a game boy vssp and that's all you can play it on with the lit screen or whatever like that's why it's still a great game. But if you have any way to color correct it do so I promise you'll thank me later. Yeah. 55:17.55 Jala Awesome! Good tip there. So with that we're going to do our spoiler wall Spoiler wall here. Okay. 55:25.63 Dave Do do do to do do boop boop. 55:28.67 Daniel Maybe it at least charged beam to get through here. 55:32.98 Jala Ah, indeed all right does anybody need to take a quick break or anything good Good great. Let's continue so we are back from the spoiler wall and we are going to talk about the fun mission based game play. This is the first time they were doing this in the Metroid games where they tell you? okay, now go here and they did that just so that way they're not dropped just dropping you on a blank map and letting you go to town trying to figure out where you need to go so ah they are overseen by samus' ships Ai. Which she calls Adam in honor of her former commanding officer Adam Malovich so that's a new element and that ai seems to be like shady like from the get go daniel. 56:24.38 Daniel We should say that. Ah, the reason she has this ai is because because her ship was destroyed when ah the X started taking over a system. This is a loanner from ah the federation or bsl or depending on how those organizations interlink. But. And the Ai is part of monitoring her. It's just like this is what you have put up with for having a ship to go to check out this problem. 57:01.40 Jala So it's got usual usual familiar Metroid mechanics. You've got platforming action puzzle solving hidden areas and paths and power ups and all of that. But there's a lot of new stuff. Nick you want to talk about this. 57:19.28 Moon So there are just so many things that are different about Metroid fusion compared to you know the previous games and um and they they're just there are a whole bunch of like major changes to like. The way the game is laid out and the way your player controls. There is new behavior for old abilities some of which became mainstace as the series went forward. Um, like for example, like because the game is more like mission based and to be clear just for anyone you know listening who hasn't played that's confused like. But we say mission base. We don't mean like you're literally selecting like like stages from a select screen or anything. It's just that it's still kind of a continuous world. But you're kind of like funneled from area to area with this onboard computer telling you what to do in each 1 each 1 each missions like maybe like 20 minutes or so whenever I time it. But as a result of that whenever it comes to like exploration and collectibles. There is a much greater emphasis on something that was already in super Metroid which is these kind of like specific puzzle rooms our design for you to like kind of solve some kind of like skill check or like you know I guess like. Puzzle check with your current equipment to get like a missile expansion or a health tank or whatever here. There's a lot more of those and they're all like tiny little room just kind of like pepper throughout the Map. You can't get all of them on your first go you know you'll have to backtrack for a number of them. But you know there's a much bigger emphasis on that. There are changes to the way samus controls like you know I think was already mentioned that she was a bit more streamlined than before like she feels a bit heavier faster to control um instead of having to like instead of having to you know. Like fumble with the select button to select a bunch of different equipment. You literally only have like missiles and power bombs now and you just arm those with one button etc. Um, ah the new behavior I'd like to handle talk about real quick is that like you have the shine spark back from. Um, you know super Metroidoid. And 1 change I'd add to it now is that if you shine spark which you know that's kind of a that's kind of an advanceability for those who don't know where you um when you're speed boosting you crouch and then you tap the jump button plus a direction to kind of fly in that direction at high speed right? and. They changed to here so that if you shine spark and you hit a slope instead of just kind of like moving upwards the slope and then flying you start running again which kind of adds this new depth to the way the speed booster works but there will be a whole bunch of puzzles where part of your goal is to kind of like shine spark again to slope. To regain your speed boost and then stop again and then continue because normally you can't stop when you're shine sparking so like running against slopes kind of restores your basic running and then lets you, you know change direction again and then there's um, one new ability and I don't know if this is intentional or not. But. The way your charge beam works and your missiles work is that because missiles are no longer selected with the select button. You actually have to hold the arm key which is the right trigger to use the um missiles there is kind of a quirk where if you're charging your charge beam and you tap the right trigger. It'll cancel the charge beam but by cancel I don't mean that it stops it I mean that it makes your charge beam go off and fire it and this allows some like depth to the way. Um your dps works and the way your jumping works because you can technically fire shots and missiles marginally faster and do more damage if you. Use the right trigger to fire a charge beam and then fire some missiles or you can. Um, if you're spin jumping you can ah use the right trigger to fire the charge beam without canceling your spin jump which is what firing while spinning normally does which is especially helpful when you have the space jump and whatnot and there's a whole bunch of like really interesting. Like action mechanics at play here even though they've removed things like you know, bomb jumping and the um, the 5 bomb lay that one sucked I don't know why they got rid of that they should have kept that um and you know like there were I can't think of a reason why they got rid of that. Especially since you have to bomb a lot of random floors. But even though they've removed a bunch of these things that promoted like nonlinear gameplay and sequence breaking and such.. There's still a lot of depth just in terms of of the action mechanics side since the game is a lot more about skill base play in a way compared to you know, super much.. We're kind of allowing you to. This sort of attrition-based gameplay if you had like enough health and so on. 01:01:53.78 Jala So I was going to ask you when it comes to the shine spark that you're talking about I using the slopes and stuff is that for like the main line or is that just for like some of the extra secret rooms and stuff because I don't I don't remember if there was a part in the main line. 01:02:09.37 Moon It's never ever required for main content. Um, the yeah the shine sparking and shine sparking and um and a wall jump at ya? Oh yeah, yeah yeah, Shinen sparking and wall jumps slopes. And you know things like that. It's the same as Super Metroid and Super Metroid I don't think the shine spark was ever required either. It was just something you could do? Yeah yeah, it was just something you could do if you want to like sequence break or get like you know secret you know collectibles and stuff like that like like you're not required to engage with the depth of the mechanics to get through. It's it's which is you know that's kind of like Metroid rules right? You really only need to engage with the abilities as they're given to you to advance for the most part or well entirely not not for the most part entirely. Basically yeah. 01:02:56.20 Dave That's why I don't 100% these games because I I hate shine sparking I find it incredibly difficult. That's why. 01:03:02.91 Jala Yeah, the shine spark can be frustrating but for me especially like back in the day I remember Space Jumping was like the worst because I could not back in the day get the timing and like this time it took me a little bit to get the timing down. But I finally did get it and then I was okay with it for the most part. 01:03:21.92 Jala But like the space jump I don't like that either. 01:03:23.87 Dave It sucks in Fusion the space jump sucks I hate it so much and then as soon as you get the screw attack your jump works again. It's weird. 01:03:33.62 Jala Yeah, it's such a weird thing we we will talk about that more in detail. Um, so some other things that are going on in this game you absorb x parasites to regain your health missiles and bombs. And you also can download new powers and stuff from data rooms that they place everywhere and also by absorbing core x parasites after defeating bosses. So that's another thing that occurs and that's how you get your power ups throughout the game. Ah some of the stuff that Nick was talking about that. Was pulled out of the game. They pulled like the bomb jumping and things like that out so that you couldn't sequence break because they were putting you on this linear path and they're trying not to you know, allow you full free reign of this space station like from the get-go like the the mission-based gameplay. Yes, it's all on one Map. And yes, you are told to go to this sector or whatever. But for the first part of the game. You don't really have like full free reign of everything because there's just all these locks in place that keep you from going to sector 6 when you haven't even gone to sector 3 yet you know so you can't get to those sectors that I know of. I don't think anybody's broken it to where they can get there. 01:04:49.40 Moon And even if like because there are some sectors that just by happenstance will be like accessible to you because oh you've unlocked ah level 3 security rooms which opens access to sectors 2 and 4 you know, whatever and like the story will say to go to sector 4 And you can technically intersector 2 but they've like specifically ability gated it so that you wouldn't be able to get through so like you might be able to go into sector 2 when you're not supposed to but there will be like a path just I'm just making up an example there. There might be a power bomb wall that blocks the path forward. It's like oh well,, there's. 01:05:23.82 Dave Yeah I was going to say the way that they divide those up is it's it's really not neat, interesting like neat tidy the way that they divide those areas up and gate you so that it is predictable like for most of them, especially the first half of the game. You go in, you find the 1 path forward. You find the upgrade. It's like a zelda dungeon in a way like you're gated off you go in. You find the upgrade that opens up the rest of the sector you go fight the boss then you go to the next sector and you repeat that 6 times and then the game. Kind of goes off of that. It's still linear after that, but it goes off of that's like kind of railroaded track after a little while which is why like when people complain about the linearity of this game. Yes, it is linear but like it's not like. This neat for the entire experience. There are times when I got lost in this game just because they don't always tell you how to get to the place where you're supposed to go. It's not always as neat as like I described like a Zelda Dungeon. Basically. 01:06:33.25 Jala Yeah, there's a lot of times where you're just like unless you've played it before and you have that memory in your head of oh there's a secret spot right here that's up in this upper corner of the room and that's how I have to I have to blow that up with the X Y Z to do the thing you know like unless you know that you're like I don't know where to go and you're wandering around for a little bit. You figure that or unless you've decided that you're going to take a walkthrough or whateverever Nick. 01:07:00.70 Moon It's also like very much this is kind of like a larger conversation but it's also very much in line with how many many many modern Metroidvania games in the indie space are designed. Like you take a look at some like the more popular ones like axiom verge like the first one and a bunch of others like I'm not going to say it's rare to find a metroidvania a modern metroidvania that has sequence breaking by notice that it's way way wait wait wait wait wait way way less common than I wish it was. So like I feel like ah just the lack of there being Metroidy Vania is like you know at the time like you know it was you know it was like like this isn't entirely true. There are some lesser known exceptions but Metroid Metroid was basically the only game in town and then you had literally I think 2 castlevania games that were like this at this point had symphony of the night encircled the moon and and like so really like it was mettro fusion being linear I don't think it was necessarily like a buck. It's not necessarily a buck against being a Metroidvania it's a buck specifically against being like super Metroid. Which is something I find kind of curious about the criticism of that aspect of the game because it I I feel it. Ah it usually gets talked about in context of well this makes Metroid infusion a bad metric vania when it's like well it just makes it different from super Metroid is like something of the night has some sequence breaking but it's pretty linear Circle of the Moon is pretty damn linear like there's really nothing else in town to measure this against for those sorry even Metroid 2 was pretty linear even though it wasn't as guided as you know fusion is. 01:08:40.59 Dave Metroid 2, they gate you until you kill the right number of Metroid You can't go further until you kill the number of Metroid they want you to kill and then then you can move to the next level if you can find it. So um. Yeah I'm with you the the comparisons to super Metroid come off as bitter more than like meaningful you know criticisms of this game because you know I have this much later in the notes when we get into like full wrap-up thoughts. But the fact that this is not super Meoid and it's not nonlinear and sequence breakable the way super Metroid did does does not mean that this game is bad by any means it just means it's not super meroid. 01:09:26.65 Daniel Yeah, it's just I think that's where a lot of criticism comes from. It's like I said like it's that comparison is Super Metroid was just this thing that like a lot of people got attached to and the fact that I think like. 01:09:44.53 Daniel Metroid 2 gets that gets passed on the linearity because oh it's a game will be game. Of course it's not going to be you know, but this is like oh this is the advance we have like we've got super Mario Brothers too on here just fine. So like this should be comparable to super Metroid right? You know and I think that's that's where like. 01:09:56.16 Moon That's a good point. Okay. 01:10:02.99 Daniel Some of that criticism comes from that comparison to Super Metroid where I don't think it's really fair. 01:10:12.52 Jala It's not comparing apples to apples. You've got 2 different types of games essentially within the Metroidvania sphere that are going on between Super Metroid and Fusion. 01:10:24.21 Moon And like to be and just to like make it clear like I absolutely sympathize and empathize with anyone who's upset that we've never gotten another Metroid game. That's quite like super Metroid I'm very upset about that too like I am very like like as good as Metroid dread was. 01:10:37.42 Daniel Oh absolutely. 01:10:42.79 Moon I am very sad that they decide to double down on kind of like a somewhat less tight variant of fusions progression right? but you know so like I understand like the desire to want another super Metroid but I'm not sure if Fusion is the right place to project that that um that disgruntled this you know personally and. 01:11:18.11 Jala Samus At this point can grab ledges and climb ladders on walls and ceilings. This is very important, especially the climbing the ladders on the ceilings. That's all of the security Robot Battles we'll talk about the boss battles here in a little bit. Um. 01:11:34.40 Dave Who and much preferred to grapple beaming or like using the grapple in super mero Just give me a ladder on the ceiling to climb I Never want to do that grapple again. Just give me a ladder 01:11:42.70 Jala Right? Monkey bars. Please yeah, yep yep and the missiles in here are expanded to include 2 different upgrades the ice missile and diffusion missile so those are other things that are going on here. There are also pursuit elements. We've talked about it several times at this point the Sa X which is the name of the critter that is inside of Samus suit um it is hunting you now. Ah in these scripted scenarios. There's a lot of points where it just kind of shows up and walks around but you're actually totally safe and like. Back in the day when I first played this I was terrified every time that thing showed up I was like I'm going to die I'm going to die oh god because there were sometimes parts scripted parts where you would have the ability to run away and the Sx would come after you and if you thought oh I don't have to run you were going to die and then you'd have to. Go from the last say point and do that whole section again and then like to get away from it I remember there's at least 1 spot where the ax is following you and you've got to run and you know like shoot ah open a thing and then go through but then you have to blow up a wall with a bomb before you can progress to get out of its way and so like ah that's really creepy because at first you don't know that you have to blow up the wall to get past it. So like you know you have a very narrow window within which to do all the things you need to do to get away from the thing nick. 01:13:10.52 Moon And so like um the thing about the s ax also is that like with the sole exception of the last 2 encounters because you know there's like I think there is 5 total if I'm not mistaken. Um, including the you know last one is that all but those last two can be can either be stealthed or they can be chased like depending on what you're doing um like the first like the first one you have to try very hard to not stealth it because like joa mentioned it is literally just you walking into a room and then seeing the essayx completely separate from you walking downwards. You can be an idiot and like go down there and shoot the floor and then get its attention and then almost certainly die because you have like no health at that point which I did do this most recent playthrough by the way I decided to test nons stealth methods for all of them see if they were possible. Um, but the second and third one especially like they really give you a bone into making them stealth but they also have like little like traps basically to kind of like tri you into following them. So like for example, the second like you know the second one you kind of hide while it power bombs the room and then it goes downward and then you know naturally you might follow and think you're safe when it's going down to the door but if you step on a certain floor. There's a little like troll floor where it crumbles and you'll fall literally right from these x and then and then you have to do kind of like a little pursuit sequence where you you know escape from it walts again. It's still very powerful at this point and then there's like the third one where again they trick you because you kind of like. Climb up into an alcove and onto the other side with um ah the other side and the way to escape is that there are a couple ah bomb blocks in the left and you need to like gain to bomb a couple of them to get through and you know there's kind of this huge pillar blocking you in the essayx of the sx doesn't know you're there. And the thing is you just got the power. Bomb at this point so you see the bomb blocks in your first sentence instances and be oh yeah, I'll just I'll just power bomb and get get through. But then if you do that? Not only does it break the the bombs that are blocking your path out. It also demolishes the pillar and the essayx can see and then it's very funny. It's just like a From Software level troll moment where like the trick you into doing the thing is going to get you in trouble and then you have to kind of run away. But but you can stealth both of those if you're you know wise to yohio Sakamoto's tricks and then you know the lot then you know the second the. 01:15:37.54 Moon the fourth and fifth one sorry yeah the fourth and fifth one those are the ones that you like absolutely have to like deal with them head on like 1 of them is you like having to do a chase because you just fall down and they're going to see you um and then the one after that course is when you I get spoilers. You actually fight them because you actually finally. Have the abilities you need to take them on. 01:15:55.98 Jala On that fourth one I absolutely fell through the ceiling directly on top of the fucking X and then I was like I also just lost some health and then I'm slowed down and so I have even less time to go and do the thing I got to do to get out of here. 01:16:03.94 Moon Um, yeah I I did um on my mostce recent playthrough for that one I specifically went out of my way to see if I could do that sequence without getting hurt. 01:16:19.90 Moon Because you know it it does have to be a head on sequence and it took me a few tries but you can't get through without getting her. You just kind of have to remember that you know you can freeze Yesa X with your ice missiles and then you just kind of have to like be liberal about like spamming ice missiles and moving forward then turning around spamming ice missiles Again, there is a. 01:16:38.22 Moon Fantastic video of someone just like disrespecting the s ax for like 5 minutes straight that's like it's literally just them firing missiles getting on top of them tbagging their head then firing more ice missiles and like they just do it for me. It's like it's like watching like a devil may cry combo ma it's very funny think ah, ah. 01:16:54.50 Jala That's very funny, especially since the freeze Missiles ice Missiles do not freeze it for very long at all. 01:16:57.83 Moon Yeah, it's it's literally just like maybe like 2 seconds max if not less. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:17:00.63 Daniel No, it's like not not even a second really like it's. 01:17:02.93 Jala Yeah, it's yeah, that's wild. So so yeah, we already talked about puzzle rooms can I Just say the fuck those Golden Space Pirates God as a golden space pirates Why they only show up in this one room and you have to kill like there's some little critters underneath the floor that you can't actually directly access but you have to use like the power bomb on it to kill them and then the the parasites that are in there reform on the level that you're at in the room that you're in and make. Magic golden space pirates that are harder to kill and jump around and like once once I realize oh all you have to do is just get really close to it and then it'll jump then it was okay, but like it took me a while to figure out First off what I was supposed to do and then second off to actually like kill them because they're invincible to the front you have to wait for them to. Jump and then you know before they turn around you have to hit them with a missile in the back and then run over to them real quick again. Several people want to talk nick you first because you had your hand up first. 01:18:08.37 Moon Okay, so ah, you Jolla you want to hear a trick that's going to make you mad that I didn't tell you earlier. Okay so I actually just learned this pretty recently myself the you know the the way the golden pirates work is that like. 01:18:13.40 Jala Sure, go ahead. 01:18:24.30 Moon You know at least in theory the way it's intended to work is that you have to shoot them in the back. However, the game's coding doesn't actually check if you're shooting in the back it only checks if you're facing them so you can totally just. Fire a missile or a charge beam and turn around before it hits them and even if they're facing you head on it'll cows ahead and I did that this play through because you know I played it today before recording you know I play finished the whole game and I did that and I'm like oh yeah, I'm doing this every time now. It's much faster. 01:18:43.97 Jala Um, well that's hilarious. Ah. 01:18:52.20 Jala Um, well that's hilarious actually Daniel You had something to add. Oh okay, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, well and then. 01:19:00.37 Daniel That is exactly what I was going to mention was that particular glitch. 01:19:02.69 Dave Nice. 01:19:07.70 Jala And to um, somebody please talk about the room right underneath the Golden space by roots which is also a trap. 01:19:11.39 Dave Oh It's that same. So It's the Same. It's the same little creatures that you kill to make the Golden space pirates appear above you and then you go into a room and like you've been trained by Metroid whether it's this game or many games. When you come into a room. There's probably something there if it's a if it's a dead end room. There's probably a treasure in there right in so in this game you see those things up above and you're like okay well I'll kill them Again. It brings more space pirates into this room and there's no treasure. It's just a like. Hey fuck you for power bombing and killing these things. There's nothing here. Congrats. 01:19:52.57 Moon Um, I'm not I'm not sure that there's any other room like that in any other Metroid game ever I could be wrong, but that was 1 thing like when I was like younger and I was like you know I was like oh yeah I know Metroid games. Just. 01:20:07.46 Moon There's no such thing as a dead end room like that was that was like a weird phase I went through in my early twenty s when I was watching like ego raptor and thinking I was like a master like games Critic I'm like oh yeah, there's no such thing as a room that has no purpose but then afusion like has that one room and it's like. 01:20:21.34 Dave Well, that's the purpose. The purpose is yeah the purpose is to to slap you. That's it. 01:20:23.31 Moon Like I'm like I'm I'm making the cat looking inside face right now. It's like. 01:20:33.61 Daniel I I think there were a couple in the original Metroid there were like dead ends and such where you could like end up just not getting anything but basel because like power ups were a lot sparser in that original game. 01:20:46.30 Moon Ah, yeah, that makes sense. 01:20:49.60 Jala Gotcha gotcha. Well it's weird though because like seriously I think I probably hung out in that room far too long when I first played it too because I'm like there can't be nothing in this room. There's no way there's nothing in this room. There has to be something here. 01:21:05.90 Jala I'm missing it. You know and I. 01:21:08.20 Dave You've you've been conditioned to ah to expect to treat when you go into a dead end room in a Metroid game. 01:21:14.39 Moon You would you kindly. 01:21:15.24 Jala Yep, and instead you get a giant middle finger and some more golden space byrates. But now you know the trick that you can just turn around. It's fine me either. But that's ok I'm past that part So we're fine, but. 01:21:23.60 Dave Yeah, that's great I had no idea. 01:21:31.77 Jala Yeah, so um, do we have other general mechanics stuff that we want to talk about before we discuss the plot again then we'll go back to talking about bosses because I don't want to talk about the bosses without explaining the context around the bosses. 01:21:45.49 Moon And I think none of us did any of us mention that beams and missiles now flatly stack. 01:21:51.54 Dave Yeah, had it in the notes that like instead of having different types of missiles. You know super missiles and regular missiles. It's just whatever the highest level of missile you've picked up. That's what your missiles are now. 01:22:06.32 Dave So you upgrade the power of them then you add ice to them then you can do the diffusion thing for for one room I think that's helpful in in the entire game. Yeah, it's 1 right? after? yeah, um so you got that and then like your your beams. Just. 01:22:14.64 Daniel Yeah, the the room literally the room after you get them is the only time it's required. 01:22:23.99 Dave Keep increasing as well. So it's It's pretty elegant and I I don't miss switching between regular and super missiles in fusion. It's just kind of cool to be like I have better missiles now not multiple types. 01:22:37.22 Moon The 2 01:22:40.92 Daniel Yeah, and um, ah well in in super you could like turn on on and off your beams I think there was like 2 of them that they were mutually exclusive as well. Like as I think it was the what's now the wide bean I think it was called spzer back then. 01:22:56.20 Moon Yes, that's right. 01:22:58.71 Daniel And the Plasma bean. Um, but yeah, you could be you literally like just had options the top of those on and off and like that was like the only one where you had to like pick one or the other um but this one is just everything just stacks together which is far better. 01:23:11.79 Moon You also have beam skills. Oh. 01:23:19.21 Jala Yeah, so something else that I want to mention too is that the progression of ah getting all of those power ups and stuff right? It's It's pretty metered out because the game is metered out for the first half of it. And then the game starts to break its linearity right? like you still get the missions but like the space station is now open to you and technically you can go a lot more places at different points in the game. You know about the halfway Point. Um. But at the same time like I would say the last quarter of it is it felt like you would go to another room something would Happen. You would get a magical magical power up and then you would fight a boss and get another power up and then you'd do this other thing and get another power up and then it's like power up power up power up power up but like wait. Loaded but at the end of the game for some reason like I mean it was a steady drip. You know he had a steady drip and you had time to really like breathe with all the different things that you were given all the different tools you were given and then like they put you in these situations where you needed them for puzzles. 01:24:10.74 Daniel Suspicious. 01:24:23.61 Jala And to to traverse right? and the the thing that I like about these upgrades and stuff in here is that you use them to traverse. There's parts where like you have ice missiles you have to freeze enemies and use them as platforms to get to x place or whatever and I like that element. Um, but yeah, like it feels like it was just. Load it and then like like you mentioned like do you get these power ups way late in the game and you get to use them for a boss I don't know Nick you you are wanting to say. 01:24:50.55 Moon So this will be ah relevant I Guess when we discuss more of like the themes of the gamer game and such I will say that I think you could make an argument about why like the sun ramp up and the powers you're getting near the end is happening like just in terms of like the. 01:25:04.47 Dave But. Yeah I was just going to say like at the beginning your Ai handler is in control of where you go and what you get and when you get it and when that control starts to slip away. 01:25:08.93 Moon The themes there I play. 01:25:22.48 Dave That's when you start getting these power ups in seemingly random unexpected places and unexpected ah frequencies. 01:25:28.10 Jala I just wish that like they had more more to do with them than you actually get when you get all these different power ups 1 after the other in the last part of the game because like. 01:25:40.70 Dave Man. 01:25:43.10 Jala You're you're preparing to do your final boss battles the several different final boss battles you have to go through um and so like you know you get power up and then you immediately fight nightmare or whatever and then you get another power up and then you immediately fight. Whatever the next one is and you just go on down the road and like there's not. Like again when you first got the ice missiles you were using that for different things and like it's part of your traversal part of the way that you trouble shot some of the bosses or some of the enemies. Oh well, this one is week Two x thing and it doesn't feel like and a lot of. 01:26:19.83 Jala The later parts of the game that you have the time to play with the tools. They're giving you you know like you don't have time to have fun with them. You just get them and then wrap up the game I don't know and um. I just I I know it's probably also like hardware limitations. You know they didn't have the space and the memory and the whatever to make it as big. It's kind of like how we were talking about well. The map is smaller. The map is smaller because it's a Gameboy advance game. You know they probably couldn't put. All of those other things but they wanted to give all these powers and you know give that feel that you guys are talking about with oh well now that the Ai isn't metering everything out suddenly you're getting all of this stuff back that Samus traditionally has yes. 01:27:05.76 Daniel It It? Um,. It's also at that point when you start getting like the the nonstop stream of power Ups is you already explored all the well all the math sectors at the space station like you've you've been through all of them This is like literally. Cutting down things that are causing problems in like Sectors. You've already been in and I think of that that kind of plays into as well. You don't have many new areas with which to explore with the new powers either. There's It's like it's like what starts with the Plasma beam I think is when like. You start really getting that flood and that is just like a damage booster. It's not it doesn't like unlocking new set of doors. It's not a key to anything. Um, yeah that you got the diffusion missiles which again like we said it's literally the place you're required to use it is right? there. 01:28:01.25 Daniel Is right in front of it. 01:28:04.96 Moon I think I think another interesting part of that is that? Ah, ah, Daniel you brought up the ah plasma beam. 1 thing. That's important is that you might remember earlier in the game that the computer specifically says that in terms of like you know the scx you can't hurt. It just run away. But a penetrating weapon like the plasma beam might work and then you get the plasma beam. Unexpectedly, you talk to the computer after that and he he kind of like expresses like concerns like oh well I wasn't expecting that and that's the moment when you stop getting like support data from the federation. Like for more downloadability so like at that point that's where they're like I mean I guess more in a story stuff. But for reasons they don't want Sams to get too powerful and then you have like things like you know the diffusion missile which. 01:28:55.39 Moon Ah, get for sorry I I just want to say we're here I agree with Jaa like a lot of the latter the latter um power ups don't have enough utility and I wish they did they should have had more room to breathe. However, another accidental maybe intentional, maybe not intentional story thing they did. That's interesting is that the diffusion missiles. Were not something you were supposed to get the federation sent that to you accidentally and then you found them so like them like being this kind of like afterthought almost like plays into the narrative as well. I think in a pretty interesting sort of way whether it's intentional or not. 01:29:25.84 Jala Which is cool. Let's segue into talking about the narrative some more now that we're past the spoiler wall. So Samus is had or has had all of our armor torn off and it is now on the space station running amok as the s a x and. Um, samus is going there to stop it because it will destroy the universe and everything so samus goes to the lab and encounters that Sa X which is basically a clone but ah, an ex parasite version of herself with all of her abilities and none of her humanity or mercy. 01:30:04.38 Jala Daniel. 01:30:05.91 Daniel Well pointantly we when approaching station. They don't know what's going On. It's just all communication is out. Um, you don't even know about the s ax until like until you like starking into the number the number sectors like you use. So. Kind of get a hint of like what's going on and then you get that like jump scare moment but like the essay X isn't known until um. 01:30:36.52 Daniel It's a little bit in the game but not very far but it's not like right at the beginning you know the like circumstances of what's going on. 01:30:39.16 Jala Right? right is a distress signal that she gets right and then she's just worried oh the power suit is there right? something I need. 01:30:50.76 Daniel I think I think it's mentioned the suit is there but not that there's no thought of it like animating. You know it's It's not they they don't know the like capabilities of the X aside from what they like saw going on inside of samus and then ah. 01:31:01.21 Jala Um, which you got to stop and think about that for a minute. What would that be like if her whole body is so totally infected with the X parasite and then she has just been you know shot up with a thing that's eating the other thing in her body like. 01:31:06.83 Daniel The fact that like Metroids get can eat them. 01:31:21.30 Jala That's some also some body horror like stuff is eating. It's you know each other inside of her body this particular moment when she gets this vaccine I mean I know that's what happens with you know, like cells fighting viruses and stuff but like you know they they even show you slides in the very beginning that show like these little. 01:31:39.94 Jala Cells going at it. It's interesting. 01:31:41.10 Daniel Um, you if you get some follow through on that in dread which so I'll say about that. 01:31:46.44 Jala Cool cool. So um, but you're right Samus enters the lab and she's just got like a distressed signal from there or something like that and then she goes and then that's when there's the bigger reveal like. 01:31:59.78 Jala Oh actually those pieces of your suit have you know, um, formed a ghost body of you and it's now this parasite thing and ah. 01:32:10.59 Daniel Yeah I think it's mentioned that the corny bay like looks like it's exploded. It's like later on it's like oh yeah, it set a power bomb in like let ah both itself and the specimens from SR 3 8 8 out 01:32:24.58 Jala So samus is running around eliminating a bunch of different infected beasts and threats and whatever and getting power ups as she goes ah contains sector by sector as. Designated to her like the assignments by this Ai computer and the s ax activates the lab's self-destruct sequence this is like way later in the game we're skipping over large large chunk of this game. We're not talking about all the little interplays between the computer and samus and all of that at this point. 01:32:55.63 Jala We can backtrack to that but like large strokes so she's exploring the lab and you know she's getting stronger and stronger. She's killing a bunch of infected parasites and stuff and beasts that are there because like they were studying a bunch of different critters and all of these critters got infected with X and then that's why you have all these things you have to fight. 01:33:16.75 Daniel Yeah, each of each of the sectors is like a different bio. Essentially um. 01:33:21.57 Jala And they're like hallmarks back to other games and different environments and in places that you see in the other games in the series at this point. So um, the why is the ax causing the Self-destruct sequence because it finds Metroids there's Metroids there The the. 01:33:39.47 Jala Ah, people on the lab are you know, currently secretly doing all of this like you know behind the scenes work with um, you know, cultivating Metroids and Nick I think you said something about like they're even building a mother brain there. You see a frozen Ridley. 01:33:58.92 Moon Yeah, basically um, you get late in the game you kind of stumble upon this restricted laboratory with you know all these metoids being grown of different stages that you're not supposed to be there. You just kind of stop The gameplay reason is that that's the only way you can go. Like you can't go backwards towards ah you know where you came from at this point and you go into this of restricted lab and you see all these Metroids being grown like it is clearly like I'm cloning Metroidoids but presumably with the dnas like there's a reason they had a Dna sample of the last Metroid right? at the beginning of the game right? like they. 01:34:33.92 Moon Clearly took advantage of that. Not just a safe sal as say it wasn't an accident that they just happened to have that laying around and ah and you know when you and what happens that the ax goes there destroys all the Metroids you have to escape before it jettisons itself from the rest of the lab. And you kind of go through this section like wedallla mentioned where you have to fight a version of Ridley because ah earlier in the game. There's an eerie little segment where you can see Ridley's corpse and then later on you can see a big ol x parasite leave the corpse and then you know you eventually end up fighting an ex mimicking. You know, readily you know higher power and close to the same area is you run into this distinct section of the game which which by the way is connected to sector one which is Srx which is the area that mimics the Metroid's home world of Sr 91 right? So sector one you see this section that if you've played any and Metroid game. You know it, you kind of go down through a shaft you go to the right? There's this that full of asa there's a there's a usual empty area to the left. Um, they're kind of like these little like gateways moving to the right. It is very clearly just an imitation of of the of the mother brain's chamber in like ton in like Metroid a 1 or super Metroid and I'm not going to say I discovered this but I I found I just noticed this myself on my most recent un 1 my most recent playthroughs I can't find any documentation of it online whatsoever. 01:36:03.73 Moon So unless it's like in a Youtube video that some csim made or whatever but like it's it's just this kind of really cool environmental storytelling of like not only were they recreating the Metroids but also they were playing to recreate mother brain because you know you need mother brain to control. Like you know the Metroids and also like the space pirates because there's space pirates on this station. Why would there be clones of space pirates on this station like you know that like like mother brain is kind of like like Metroid other m I'm rolling my eyes. It goes a little bit more into this. But. 01:36:34.31 Moon Like you know there is kind of this aspect of the mother brain where like she's kind of like a control like like a control unit that allows like the Metroidits to function and the space pirates to function etc So like having this huge like recreation of mother brain's room mother Brain's chamber. 01:36:51.81 Moon Like but the game just never tells you It's just kind of there is absurdly absurdly, cool and like it's that and there's a few more examples of that kind of environmental storytelling in this game. It is exactly the kind of environmental environmental storytelling that made Metroid 2 or super Metroid or super Metroid cool. But there's a lot more of it I think it just one those things where like we collectively like you know as Gamer Americans just like tend to miss that because it is drowned out by how much loud direct storytelling. There is with a computer talking to you at every second and so on and so forth. 01:37:27.21 Moon There's not really much room for that stuff to breathe and not much reason for the player to stop and notice it when the computer saying oh quick head to sector 2 Oh fuck sector 3 is literally melting down. You got to go stop it. You know like it just the middle the middle portion in the game is just like emergency after emergency. Basically. 01:37:40.98 Jala Um, it it is in right right? Everything's got a malfunction and in this that and the other like. 01:37:41.60 Dave Yeah, you're on a space station. That's what happens on space stations emergencies. 01:37:51.96 Jala Notice like in my discussion of the story I just skip over the most part of the large part of the game there except you know like well we'll talk about the Ai kind of separately because that ah the Ai has its own arc but um, you know insofar as like the broad strokes of this game. so so yeah there's 01:38:10.18 Jala Ax it's trying to destroy the station ai is going or why is it trying to kill it must mean that there must be some bigger threat if it's you know, not going to even worry about its own self-preservation. It must mean that there's something bigger here and then Sam rolls up on the restricted lab sees the meroids. Being grown and sees the meroids attacking the ax and they kill the ax and um samus ends up narrowly escaping from that area but all the meros and that ax are gone of course Adam your computer tells you oh it's actually cloned itself and there's a whole hell of a lot of. Um, now. So have fun with that There's a lot of essay x's running around the station. At this point ya so ah yeah, yeah, go ahead. 01:38:55.91 Daniel Um, at least 10 I think is the exact line. 01:38:56.49 Moon And 1 other one other it. Ah sorry, um, 1 other interesting knock on effect is that since those infected suit parts are the origin of the x outbreak on the station. Like it kind of stands to reason that since like the you know the x the x just kind of they they they um reproduce asexually right? They just kind of divide themselves etc and 1 thing that's interesting about that is that all the bosses you fight, you know they're all x that have infected all these other creatures and. You get one of your old abilities back from each one and it is specifically abilities that Sam has had in the past that she gets this way with with the soul exception of the wide beam which really is just a renamed version of the spacer beam right? like every single one ability that she gets from an x is a legacy ability that was in a previous game. 01:39:48.18 Moon Whereas like the 1 whereas like whenever you have the download data from the federation. That's where whenever there are new abilities like the ice missiles and so on those specifically come from the federation whereas because everything came from your suit with the axe. They all have your abilities because that is stuff that that original like I guess patient zero x had essentially which I thought was pretty cool. 01:40:13.70 Jala Um, well that is a very cool detail that I as a gamer American overlooked. Ah. 01:40:16.60 Daniel yeah yeah I think they do mention that some of that probably some of the critters they picked up at us are three eighty were probably also ex-infected but like it's not yeah, it's I mean. 01:40:34.35 Daniel Yeah, if that works just as well. You know it could just easily be like you know, a lot of the like the bosses in particular are like the SA x having divided down taken over other critters makes sense. 01:40:43.30 Jala Um, right? right? So the federation wants to use the Sa X for military purposes so they want samus to leave the station and then let the federation handle it That's what Adam tells you. And Samus knows that it's just going to infect the federation and then just so you know go across the galaxy and destroy everything through the federation because of what the federation is saying Daniel. 01:41:11.24 Daniel Yeah, should be.. It's also point out we didn't really cover this Um, but like the initial thing you find out. Um, when the self-destruct is going I think it's like the furnace and the Pi The ah pyretic sector is going off and there it's getting overloaded is that it's a scientist. That's actually it an X that's setting it up and like that's where you find Out. No The X can like actually think like they have they can like get the memories of like um whoever they absorb so like and all the knowledge. The scientists have like the X have that essentially. 01:41:47.30 Daniel I Mean that's it's kind of interesting because like yeah you have the essay X like you have to wonder like probably like why it wasn't a threat of the beginnings because it didn't really know how to use the power suit to its full extent because it didn't get samus herself. It just got it just got the bits of a suit and like there's no. 01:42:06.33 Daniel Knowledge in there. That's why ramps up into a more more threatening later on. 01:42:10.30 Jala That's a cool point and yeah I forgot they do mention that in the game they're like and all of their abilities and memories and stuff are in the s ax now and that sounds pretty hokey to me but like I mean it it works for the terms of the game for you know, having here's the threat. 01:42:26.74 Jala You know of this ah parasite that can also inherit all of the knowledge and skills and and whatnot and also mimic this person you know like the idea here is that it could be body snatchers situation where these people from the federation are infected by X and the X take them over but then puppet them. And you know act like them and fake other people out and then just spread everywhere and that's that like it. Yeah yeah, so. 01:42:53.72 Daniel Yeah, but very very very. Ah John Carper knows the thing in that regard. 01:43:01.20 Jala At this point samus is like no, we've got to destroy all the stuff and Adam's like no, you can't do all of that and the computer and Samus getting into this big old argument. There is this impassioned fight between the 2 of them and then samus in the middle of it actually refers to the Ai as Adam and then you know the ai does like this. Oh. Got me in the heart. What what was that Adam who is Adam who is he what would he think about this and then you know like ah she says oh well, he would have laid down his life I don't know whatever she's she's just like ah saying oh Adam would do what I'm doing. You know he wouldn't stand in my way this that and the other you know he would. 01:43:40.60 Jala Value this over whatever and then the computer which is actually like the uploaded consciousness of Adam her old commander conveniently like ah was that explained anywhere. Ah. 01:43:54.36 Daniel It um, it comes that it gets like explained in the epilogue that like this is like a thing that the federation does ah if I remember correctly I'd like but it's it's weird because like there has to be some kind of limitation on that because otherwise. Why wouldn't you just have like just the 1 guy at top and just have him send out his Ai copies to manage the entire federation at that point. So there's got. He's like some kind of limit or or some reason why it's not like a prevalent thing. 01:44:26.89 Moon Um, Samus mentions that she had no idea this was happening so my guess is that either. It's a very new thing or it's something they kind of keep under wraps and only do in special circumstances like the the way Adam is talked about as a person. Both in terms of like the federation and how samus like feels about him I guess I can imagine like the federation kind of seeing him as an asset because clearly they see samus as cynically as an asset if they think they can just swoop in and take x copies of her because they want more samus errands. So they probably feel the same way if they lose 1 of their top. You know commanding officers is my guess. 01:45:10.64 Daniel Ah I guess question I Think since you're I think you're the only one who played other M does this does any of this come up in there because this ellerm is basically kind of a prequel feature that features the human atom in it. 01:45:20.16 Moon Okay, so it never ever comes up in other m and also I haven't the slightest of when in that timeline they would have uploaded his memory which actually gives me some of my own weird misgivings I mean this? Well first other time is just. I don't want to be a stereotypical Metroid fan. But as someone who has tried to give other ram a chance many many many times has gone through my ups and downs with it. It's not a It's not a game that's very kind to the continuity of Metroid. Let's put it that way. But yeah, it is a prequel to it is a direct. It is a. 01:45:54.63 Moon Is an intraquel. It is a s sel to soup is a direct sequel to super and a direct prequel to fusion and you know Adam is in a like it is. It's really weird because it's kind of almost like a. It's almost like a prequel remake of fusion like it is a very similar setup where they go on to a space station with individual like you know recreations of um ecosystems where creatures live right. 01:46:20.13 Moon And except it's not just samus by herself. It is samus and Adam and his team of federation officers and stuff and they are also trying to uncover what ends up being some kind of like government conspiracy within the federation essentially and. Because like that kind of event is so self-contained unless like this is like I own like a weird like halo situation or whatever where like they've all got little like computer chips in the back of their heads that like or like near to automata where they're just kind of like backing up their brains to the cloud at every minute like. The version of Adam they must have must have been from before the events of other m which not only would make some of his like remarks to samus infusion weird because he talks as if he knows what ended up happening to himself and the sacrifice he made for samus but also he was a very much like. 01:47:12.95 Moon Kind of like against the federation schemes like he like he dies in other m like basically destroying a Metroid breeding program much the way Sams was trying to do with the space station infusion. So like I'm not sure if they just kind of like upload his mind without his permission before other am or what but. It's something that's literally never ever mentioned after fusion to my understanding that. 01:47:35.72 Daniel Yeah, um, that's kind of was the thing about and like thinking about that like there have to be limits on like this upload the ai thing like is my kind of like my headcan is that like the Ai did not know that he was based on Adam Until like it was able to connect those dots like maybe something in the upload process. They keep the identity keep it from realizing its own identity. Essentially that's what makes sense to me out. Yeah there's nothing to support that of course. 01:48:05.75 Moon There's actually 1 more detail that um, that runs with that. That's interesting is that Adam as he behaves in fusion up to the point where he literally confines samus and won't let her leave that is very much in line with. Things Adam has done multiple times in other m like like met like like Adam and other m like the reason there's like in other m like Sam and Adam are kind of estranged like she used to be a federation officer under Adam under Adam's command and then some event happened that caused them to part ways. But. 01:48:40.83 Moon But you find out is that at some point. Um Adam's ah brother who I don't remember his name but Adam had a brother who samus was apparently very close to they were all kind of like a tight knit group everyone and Adam's brother ended up dying in this like event where. Samus could have saved him but Adam simply wouldn't let her do it. Basically I don't remember the details but it was like some sort of like experiment gone wrong or something like a ship was going to crash and Samus bigs at him to let her go out there and he's just like no. And then it kind of happens that again at the end of other end where he literally this this gets into shitty weird like gender dynamics territory where like he literally like shoots samus in the back to keeper from going into the the restricted lab with the Metroid to stop them so that he can do it instead. And part of what drives out of is that like he kind of like it is very much a classic case of like he's kind of masquerading as this really stone cold military officer but he really kind of cares about sam as kind of like a father figure sort of and so he doesn't let Sam go out to save Adam's brother because his logic ah and stops her from. Sacrificing herself in the restricted lab. His logic is no, you are too important and you know what he's telling himself and everyone else is well. You're the only obstacle to the galaxy's ruined so I can't let you die. But also you know he's really feels affectionate towards samus. 01:50:08.40 Moon And that's very much in line with what computer Adam is doing here even before samus reminds him of who he is where like he's kind of like his member. He has that talk with her in fusion where she's like where he's like look all you're doing is removing the only obstacle to the galaxy's ruin which is you like that's stupid like you can't die here like you. 01:50:25.97 Moon He's kind of viewing it in like a bigger picture way which may not actually be off base. But that's a whole other conversation. 01:50:34.80 Daniel Yeah I think that that point is like after she calls him Adam yeah I think so because that that's that's when a piece criticized like criticizing like oh yeah, that that that's dumb that he would like you know sacrifice himself for you like and. 01:50:54.70 Daniel And like yeah you you would just be removing yourself and meanwhile you know there's s star 3 8 8 But like if you redirect the station. The land of s r 3 8 8 walls self struck that'll do it and that's when. 01:51:05.10 Jala Yeah, he's like we're just going to blow up the planet with the space station but you got to get off of here and you've got to save yourself. Also so um. 01:51:14.60 Daniel At which at which point he then like gives what is essentially like the identifying line of any objections lady which oh we can. 01:51:23.42 Moon At the top of the episode when Jaa said any objections you have no idea how hard I was holding my tone I was like not going to say it not going to say it knocking knock and knock and not going to say to a woman on the podcast I am not going to do that. 01:51:32.14 Jala I was waiting to See. Ah, well, especially since we know the super secret origins of that as as being super sexist and Terrible. We will post a link about that in the show notes. So So yeah, um, at this point there's the whole scene. 01:51:46.70 Daniel Oh gods. 01:51:46.22 Moon Ah, yeah, oh god. 01:51:53.73 Jala Between ai adam who now is kind of come into his own as a character of Adam Malovich ah part 2 and he and Samus concoct this idea of well. Um, this space shut space station is going to blow and we need to get you off of here alive but also. You know we do need to get rid of this threat. How about we just Ram it into the planet and I'm just like that must be a real small planet or a very very large station which is much larger than this map leads me to believe? Yeah, so but 1 thing. 01:52:29.43 Jala Didn't mention is that there's some critters that samus saves that's in one of these little labs and they're like critters from the other games that ah she remembers She's like oh these are the guys that gave me the that taught me how to do these things and ah she breaks them out and then they go and run and jump into her ship and pilot the ship with the 01:52:53.40 Daniel Yeah, these are the same critters from Super Metroid that ah they teach you the wall jump in the shine Spark techniques. That's where these critters come from. 01:53:01.80 Jala Yeah, and you can save them and then they go into your ship and I don't know if it's actually just ah at Adam the ai piloting the ship. Um, but he I think he says in the game like these things helped me so I guess he was telling how to pilot and the little critters did it. 01:53:14.88 Daniel Yeah, he I Yeah he he can't He can't launch the ship if I remember correctly that's like it's kind of like a safety function in of but he he can't do it. It has to be. 01:53:31.70 Dave Is going to say I I am an a I I can't pull this lever I can a train put some peanut butter on this lever to get the animals to come move it or something. 01:53:32.17 Daniel Somebody has to input the command to do so um. 01:53:42.30 Jala Um, right right. 01:53:46.81 Moon Okay, so um I have feelings about this little development here. Um, she she rescues the creatures right? They go to her ship you you find that later they specifically went to her ship like like Adam does remind you at some point like hey these strange creatures boarded and. Because they weren't a ex-os I decided to let them in and then what happens that at the very end when you get to the docking bay your ship is gone be I guess presumably because this the final boss hasreaked havoc and they had to escape or whatever right. And you beat the you beat the boss and then finally the ship comes back to the bay and picks you up and when it's all over everything's done and good Sam says like but 1 thing bothers me how did he start the ship if if there's no autopilot and it just and then you know. Literally right? after I'm like oh well think about they len me a hand and then there's like a pan to the creatures with the heroic music before the credits start and it's like that really annoyed me a bit because they basically set up a plot hole in 1 sentence just to be immediately solved in the next sentence and is on top of that. It's like treated as like the punctuation like that's all folks and like the end and so and it's weird because like canonically technically if you really paid attention. We know that autopilot apparently isn't a thing at least on these small class ships because at the very beginning in the first cut scene. 01:55:17.21 Moon Specifically mention that Samus drifts unconscious when the x take over her and so her ship just kind of drifts off and crashes so like you can kind of surmise from that that autopilot isn't on these ships. But it's not treated like Checkoff's gun in any way like it's not treated as it's not called to attention as as detail. The player should pay attention to later so when the ship leaves and then comes back on its own I don't think anyone consuming a scifi story thought that was like weird or unusual but the story. The the very last cut scene specifically treats it like you're supposed to thing. It's unusual I'm like it's outer space and of course the ship has autopiled why would I not why would you assume I don't think that's like. 01:55:56.99 Jala Well, it's It's really just kind of funny because I think it's it's it's doing this weird thing where I guess because she's completely obliterating an entire planet and trying to you know, solve the climate crisis kind of thing that she started by just destroying everything. Which is like she's actually the villain here. But anyway, right, right? But but I mean like you know she saved these little critters and it's like no you know like she saved some of them and then they paid her back I mean like there's this whole. 01:56:21.20 Moon So just another Tuesday for samus. 01:56:21.97 Daniel Samus "Nuke 'Em" Moran 01:56:34.68 Jala Kind of symbiotic relationship between her and the Metroids and her and the Ex and you know her and these other little critters and they're just kind of like repeating the same notes over and over again in different ways. This is just a different permutation of that is how it reads to me but it is goofy and I think it's supposed to just kind of be like this weird and lighthearted. Way of ending this otherwise not lighthearted at all video game I don't I don't know why they put it in there but that that's it just the critters look goofy and then like there's this one little monkey looking dude who just goes whoop right up in the screen from the bottom you know and they just look gooby as heck and. It's just silly. It's just this lighthearted silly thing and I think it's supposed to give you like the feel good. You know here's the end of the thing here's cute little Critters. We're all good now folks. Yeah. 01:57:20.17 Moon You You do see them sleeping. They are cute and. 01:57:24.26 Daniel Yeah, yeah, and it is kind of I think it is for like the people who played super saw them. There is like oh they're back. You know, kind of thing as well. 01:57:33.60 Jala so so yeah like um, you you do end up having to fight anx the the one that you had been fighting before was the one who I think was eaten by the Metroids in the research Bay. But then like. There's other x's on the station you fight 1 you fight a big critter called the nightmare you fight Ridley you fight the omegametoid which is the last thing that you fight um, but you only can fight the omegametoid by absorbing the stuff from the ax because you know they're enemies. So there's all of that. There's a lot of this back and forth and and. 01:58:09.28 Daniel well yeah well well it's not just that that I think we didn't even mention this but like a side effect of the the Metroid vaccine that Sam Scott is that she is insanely weak to cold now because like. 01:58:26.69 Daniel Classic weakness of the met of like when you fight Metroids in like the original games is you? You have to freeze them and then blast them with missiles. It's the only way to take them down. Um so like cold is kind of like ah and because you know the essay X has nice beam that's problem and like it. 01:58:44.77 Daniel That's best's part of why you get ice missiles. The storyline is because because of how the suits integrated with her. They can't like have the ice beam be like on board on her system so they have to like kind of like shunt it off onto the missiles instead. 01:58:58.71 Moon And 1 extra note about that is that when you absorb the essay x at the end you are specifically absorbing the ice beam again because your beam turns into the ice cream and in fact, it doesn't give you the little jingle with the ice beam acquired text. But if you pause the game and. 01:59:16.54 Moon And shoot over to samus's equipment screen. You'll see for beam. You'll say ice for the final one if you do it before you know, finish showing the boss but it's interesting because they tell samus that she can't get the ice beam up to that point. However, a now retcon explanation for that that Yoshio Sakkamoto had in interview. After fusion came out is that the reason Samus got the ice beam despite not being able to get it before is that when she absorbed the s a x she was absorbing is his words absorbing her original genetic condition now. I know maybe maybe I'll give you the link so you could put it in the description jaw because it is very hard to find this interview. It was on some very old Metroid website but he according to him Samus has reabsorbed her original genetic condition which presumably means she is no longer part Metroid Dr Throws that out the window. 02:00:10.78 Moon Like ah if that if it if it was if that was if if that was canon in Sakamoto's mind after fusion came out, he decided to ditch that idea by the time dread came out because she is absolutely still part Metroid in um, Dr. So just an interesting little tidbit. 02:00:25.97 Jala Ah, yeah, that's pretty wild. So So yeah, like let's go ahead and talk about the different bosses and stuff in the game. Um, as I know certain individuals especially are very excited to do. Ah, and then like we can kind of talk overall themes and and other impressions and like what this game leaves us with after that So Nick take it away I will let you I will let you lead the charge on the bosses. 02:00:57.15 Moon Okay, so bosses. Um I kind of allude to this way earlier but Metroid fusion more than any of the previous Metroid games. Um, when it comes to the boss fights like especially in super Metroid there was. 02:01:13.59 Moon SuperMetroid bosses could be skilled like I know that firsthand like you can skill a number of those bosses if you're shrewd enough but there was kind of how do I describe this. There was a bit the the way you controlled and moved was loose enough so that it never felt. Quite as clear or apparent to the player that everything could be avoided like I feel like a lot I feel like what the super Metroid experience is for most people when they play and when they fight bosses is it's them kind of like trying to shoot trying to get an angle but then like getting hit by shots that they don't feel they can avoid just kind of like. Bouncing around until they hopefully win the battle of attrition based on them maybe avoiding some of those hits but not most of them and having enough energy tanks to tank it and so on in Metroid fusion. There's still a very little There's still a bit of that but they. 02:02:08.75 Moon Move the slider much more towards this very tight deterministic design where the bosses like have patterns that you're meant to learn there are there's different. There's positioning. You're meant to take to kind of help yourself like avoid certain attacks and so on. The very first boss you fight is a rackness who you might remember from you might remember from um Metroid 2 if you play that. But um, like you go into a rackness chamber and he just sort of like fires little like beam swipes at you he um he you know he breaths fire. He rolls at you. But there's kind of these alleges you can grab on either side of the arena and you're kind of meant to kind of climb up there and then when he rolls forward that would knock you off the ledge so you have to jump onto the other side like like you you see what I'm getting at like there's a clear pattern you're meant to be following with this boss and that that kind of follows through with. Basically all the bosses like some of them don't get me wrong a lot of them still have tax are very very very hard to figure out like patterns that even after even after spending like an hour on some of these I couldn't quite figure out how to no hit them if I was going for that challenge. But you can generally like you can generally skill your way through all these bosses and I think that kind of lease the divide where a lot of like like um, long term Metroid fans coming into fusion. They feel the game is just way too hard which you know. 02:03:38.45 Moon Shocks on a person level shocks me just a little bit but you know on the other hand I kind of get it because if you're coming from Super Meroid where you can reasonably like resource check all these bosses in a way that um, that kind of feels the most apparent way to most players. 02:03:56.16 Moon Like fusion having like a more apparent skill check does like does you know seem quite a bit different and a bit tougher because you actually have to kind of like there's no way to say this. It doesn't sound snooty I don't mean it this way that like there's no way around it. You have to learn the boss fights to a degree to really get through infusion and. 02:04:13.90 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, definitely when I played it the first time it like I had to sit there and sit with the bosses and redo them over and over again to learn their patterns and even twenty years later playing this game again. 02:04:29.79 Jala I Still remembered some of those patterns even now like because I I probably because I bang my head against it for so long that you know just stuck in there. Um, and that made it a little bit easier but I didn't feel like there were a couple of bosses I felt that were um. 02:04:48.96 Jala Like you they they felt like you pretty much did have to tank at least a couple of hits in some of the later fights but all the early bosses especially feel like they're very fair. Yes, you have to learn how they play but you can play those and you know. 02:05:06.11 Jala Finish them skillfully and get through the game you know smoothly. But yeah, like the first few times that you go through it. Yeah, you're going to be banging your head against them a little bit but like um, especially in like a post souls born world. It's it's kind of weird to talk about boss difficulty. Um, with the same lens because like back then maybe you know the perspective of on bosses was a little bit different than it is now like um for me at least when I looked at those bosses back when I played it I'm like god these are hard this is terrible and. You know, ah the way that I look at it now is like is it fair is it something that I can learn if I can learn it then you know it should be fine like it's fine. It might be you know more of a challenge than some people want when they are engaging with this game. 02:05:57.56 Jala You know, maybe they're more for the exploration elements and the hidden stuff than they are for. You know the ah get good aspect of it right? But um, you know is it fair. Can you get through it and like the the demand on this is different because it isn't that resource heavy thing. Dave. 02:06:14.33 Dave Yeah, like I'm so I think of the Metroid series on this scale like that moon brought up where the earlier games you had to have the resources and like like moon said you. Could skill some of the super Metroid bosses but are you going to probably not. You're going to resource check your way through and then on the other side you have dread which I think is like so much more on the skill side. It is a which reflex skill-based ah boss game and that. 02:06:50.83 Dave Part of that is also like the parry and all of these like interactive qt cut scenes that you do in that game too but fusion to me sits in the middle where like moon said much more skill but like. The examples that moon gave like the one where there's the ladders on the wall you can climb on the ladders to avoid the damage but are you going to avoid the damage I don't think a lot of people are I think you're just going to tank a lot of that stuff but they are learnable enough to be. Fun in some cases and um, less frustrating than like the resource checks I cannot stand the bosses in super Metroid and Metroid 2 also I think they're terrible. Um, and this is a step in the right direction. So like. This speaks to me a little bit more than the older Metroid boss design and then when you know they obviously took this into mind when they made somema's returns which I played the bosses are much more skill based in that game too and then in dread. Um, dread's the only. Game in the series where I say I like the bosses like straight out I like the bosses but this one's fine. It's okay, some of them are frustrating um moon and I have had several conversations back and forth about like the possibility of skilling them and I like. 02:08:17.38 Dave I understand that they can be but I just don't think they're going to be skilled like 100 % skilled you're just going to tank a bunch of stuff and the good thing about this game though is because it's linear and a lot of the energy tanks are right on the linear path like you're not going to miss a lot of the energy tanks. So. By the time you get to those bosses. You do have the resources to tank some of those things and then use the skill that you do learn through trying a boss 5 times or something like that and you'll get through it. So this game maybe is harder. But I agree with moon I I don't see how that's a bad thing. To introduce a skill aspect into this and so when I hear a complaint that Metroid fusion is too hard I have to wonder what other kinds of 2 d games. Do you like because you know I don't look at any of these and be like man that is just incredibly difficult. This it's not like the radiance or something from hollow night. You know this is fine. 02:09:18.35 Jala Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a really good point because definitely in my experiences with fusion like there's a certain extent to which yes I'm learning the bosses. There's also a certain extent to which I'm like. I can take the hit I'm not worried about it. Whatever I I'm not going to um, try to flawless victory this I'm I'm not Nick and I'm not going to try to do this without getting hurt. Um I'm okay, as long as I like ah famously I had ah shared the. 02:09:48.13 Jala Final the end of my final boss fight where it was like literally one second left on the play clock and I had like nineteen health and it was like rober where work because you know I didn't have any health but like anything it breathed on me and I would have died and like that was my final ah boss fight the end of my final boss fight and me leaving was. I just barely barely made that and that was a very very appropriate ending to this game in the kind of setting that it's trying to push you through here. But yeah. 02:10:09.87 Dave Yeah. 02:10:20.81 Dave I Will I will say that there are a couple of bosses especially in the first half of the game that feel good. They feel good. They I like them. Um, and then you get to the second half of the game and there's a bunch that are like just really simple like the essay X fight. 02:10:38.14 Dave Is really simple. It doesn't feel like fighting pSamust. It feels like fighting just kind of like a a thing in a blind rage that's in your body that's in your suit basically just kind of runs at you and jumps and you know you shoot it you jump over it and you repeat 16 times until it's over the Ridley fight is just god awful. In my opinion and the final boss is really simple which makes it really not satisfying as a final boss in my opinion. 02:11:07.13 Jala Yeah I have to agree that I liked a lot of the bosses in the first part of the game better than I liked a lot of the bosses in the later part of the game. Um, you know like I remembered Ah, it's funny because I had like this very vague memory of like having to space jump a lot to get away from a boss and and. Dealing with a weird hit window and stuff and like I couldn't figure out what boss that was and as I was playing through the game I'm like well it wasn't that one. It wasn't that one I Wonder what the heck it was and I can only suppose that it was nightmare because Nightmare has a weird hit box. But like I don't know it was this weird thing where I just had like this memory of just. 02:11:43.36 Jala Dying a whole lot before I finally finished a boss and it must have been. 02:11:46.56 Daniel Yeah I I remember ah the second fight against security robot it's it's not hard once you find figure out the pattern for it but that that was one where it's like just getting everything right? because there's like brief moments where it's. Actually vulnerable to taking taking on the taking damage on it. Um I'll say the the one the the 1 direct plant bastard is the one you get the plasm beam from. 02:12:22.97 Daniel That thing it's again again, they're all Pattern kill bosses Once you like know like okay I stand here I Do this do that I can avoid it but like that's one where like it's giant plant fills the room. There are like. Pits with like essentially like sanus consuming flowers in them where ah unlike most other things in the game where like you're if you go like trapped in something you want a button mash. It's one where you have to like hold the jump button to get out of it. So like if you don't know that you're just like. Constantly taking damage from this until you know you die and have to Respawn and like ah I hate it I Absolutely hate that one. 02:13:06.68 Jala Um, it's funny because like I actually that was probably 1 of the buss fights I liked the best I I liked the security robot fight. Um, partially because as you weaken it parts of it break off and then you can see it's. Big gigantic brain in there and it's like this big spidery looking thing with a huge brain in it and it's like getting more and more fucked up as you fight it and as it takes damage and that's pretty cool. Um, that's one of my favorites and then that plant guy is actually 1 of my favorites because like I beat my I bang my head against it and I got mad at it. 02:13:40.90 Jala Um, because like I kept on falling into the pits and I didn't know hold the jump button so I immediately died and wiped and had to come back and do it again? Um, but like once I figured out how to get away from those then it was a ah fight to remember ok like where are the pollen. 02:13:57.65 Jala Molecules going because there's pollen coming down from the ceiling. There's stuff below. You. The pollen will knock you into the flowers that will eat samus specifically and then you have to fight the little plant guy and at first he's not doing anything. He's just sitting there and the pollen is killing you and the flowers are killing you? um. And then it opens up and then it starts shooting lasers at you at some point but the flowers are gone that are that pollen rather is gone at that point. Um and I figured out that like oh in this one particular spot if you crouch down you can like avoid the pollen and then once I figured that out it was cake from there. Um. I know that nick really really has a lot to say about this boss in specifics. So prepare yourself. Listener. 02:14:40.92 Moon They? Okay so the plant boss their name is not tori. Um, for one I Want to point out that they somewhat resemble a choo statue which is interesting um in like weird shape. Ah I don't know if there's like supposed to be like some kind of like symbolism to that but they do have kind of like. 02:15:00.60 Moon Look about them but nottoi is possibly my favorite boss in Metroid like as a whole my mind might change in a few weeks if I wake up and say no actually it was um, emperor ing and Metroid pro two what was I thinking but but no for now my favorite boss in Metroid is notorie. And the reason it's my favorite boss is because it is the one that most explicitly showcases how much hidden depth there is to the action mechanics in Metroid fusion. Um, because if you're trying to do this boss without taking any damage for for 1 it's it's probably maybe maybe even more than nightmare. It is the one that's like the most apparently hard to flawless and not take damage from just because there's so much going on the screen There's so little there are so few places where you can stand safely and so on and however. By the time you get to this point you have your morefa you have your you have your charge beam and you have your power bombs and your space jump and when you first jump into the room. What happens is that you kind of fall through a crumbling floor and if you hold a neutral position. You'll kind of naturally fall on this platform but you'll also. Naturally get hit by this piece of pollen on the way down which I guess is meant to kind of like knock you into the flowers that Daniel complained about which to be fair is right? The way you jump out of those is very annoying. However, if you know what you're doing with the various advanced tech if you know what you're doing with the. 02:16:36.50 Moon More fall as a defensive maneuver or if you know you're doing with the charge spin attack for those who don't know this is in a super Metroid as well. If you don't have the the screw attack but you have the charge beam you can charge your beam and hold the charge and do a spin jump. 02:16:53.70 Moon And when you're spin jumping you'll actually have a pseudo one hit screw attack where if you jump into something you'll do damage to it and if it's enough if it's enough damage to kill them. You won't take damage. But if it's. If. It's not enough damage to kill them then you will take damage but it'll still hurt them and it's kind of like that is kind of an offensive maneuver. You can use. However, another part of that that a lot of people don't know that most people didn't know that I didn't know until earlier today is that the charged spin jump. Actually has its own defensive properties I haven't checked tested exactly what on, but there are a bunch of projectiles that you're invincible to if you're spin jumping with a charge beam if you're doing a charge jump. So what you can do is that you can jump into that arena. You can do a little space jump so that your charge beam fills up before you hit the before you fall through and then when you do because you'll be in spin jump. You'll just kind of harmlessly pass through the pollen and then you can land on the platform to the right immediately in front of the plant crouch there on the middle fire missiles. And because the pollen falls in a deterministic pattern. You can just crouch into the morph ball every time they're about to hit you for a moment and then come back up and continue firing on top of that the power Bomb Cancels all projectiles on the screen. So so you know the ideal method that I found is that. 02:18:20.84 Moon You go in there. You use a charge spin to safely make your way to the right platform you fire as much as you can then right before the pollen hits you you crouch you lay a power bomb by the time you get up the power bomb is cleared off the entire screen and it's either enough or almost enough for you to wail on the boss with missiles so much. That it ends that the pollen phase before they can even start firing again. It's and then you know the rest of it kind of just plays out the way it is you stay on the platform you jump to avoid the beams you fight the corex. It's without a doubt the coolest boss experience I've had in these games just because. If you're going for that kind of self-imposed challenge run where you never want to take damage it expects you to use these kind of hidden base mechanics. It specifically rewards your knowledge and your experimentation The only reason I discovered the spin attack ah charge is because I did it once by accident and I noticed I passed to the pollen not getting hit. Um, I only discovered the power bomb because I was wailing on the boss of the missile so hard that I was still holding r and I manageded to b when I jumped into the Morp ball position and that caused a power bomb discharge and I saw the pollen disappear and I was like wait a second. My allergies are gone what on Za and it's with. 02:19:36.18 Moon And I I want to brag I'm to post since I'm going to post thread about that social media layer. It's like that is the fucking coolest thing and I again I'm sure someone has probably talked about in some Youtube video I can't find but I can't find anything about the interplay with this boss in particular and like. If I want to argue with someone about these bosses truly being like like at least largely skill based affairs not to is probably the best argument you can make like it is extremely extremely fucking cool fight I can't get enough of it. 02:19:59.34 Jala Yeah, yeah, definitely if you do post that out there. Give me a link so I can put it in the show notes Dave. 02:20:11.19 Dave So first of all, it's it's really cool that there is a hidden like complexity to the mechanics of Metroid well beyond the I've played this game 3 times I have no idea what you're talking about until you explained it in our text thread earlier today. But part of me wishes like you know if they want this to be as skillable for you know, the average player. Why not teach me how to do some of this stuff. You know there's a lot of these things that you're talking about that. Like I said I've played this game 3 times I've played 4 Metroid games in the last month I have no idea what you're talking or I had no idea what you were talking about and this this goes beyond shine sparking because you you might figure out shine sparking because you do so many speed boosts in these games. 02:21:04.18 Dave Ah, Metroid dread requires you to do a shine spark to get through one of the the places So like the game made me learn that there's a lot of stuff that you've that you're talking about that on one hand I'm like that's really cool that there is this mechanical complexity that I know you love to engage with. 02:21:23.18 Dave And it's cool that the game gives that to you and part of me is like if this is as skill based as they you know if this is is as skill based as they are saying it is or they want it to be why not teach me some skills instead of teaching me throughout. So many Metroid games that the only tools I really have to fight bosses are space jump Missiles Morphball and a charge a charge shot that's about it. I mean that's all that's required of you but that's all that's really taught to you is is my point. Um. And I'm not trying to like yuck your yum, just like from the other side when I say that I don't feel like these are skill based for most people this is why. 02:22:07.92 Jala Yeah, because most people aren't necessarily like looking for or having to discover these things right? until you know they they happen upon it in the way that Nick did but Nick was doing this because specifically he was trying to do. Like a no damage run. So um, you know like not everybody's going to go into this doing that they're going to go by the skin of their teeth and move on probably so Nick. 02:22:36.29 Moon Yeah, my my only real like response to the thing about teaching The advanced tech is that like this is just me but I love discovering things that aren't old to me like this and it's one of those things where it's like I've been playing this game for. 02:22:54.79 Moon 21 years now right? God yeah, that's right old enough to drink I forgot but um, like I've been playing this game for like 21 years now and just now discovering this like I'm on cloud nine for that like it feels really fucking cool to just kind of like naturally discover that stuff and like and you know. 1 of the reasons why you know my channel and the main show that I plugged earlier exists is because like I truly believe that with just like enough confidence and like enough and like enough experience spend like approaching like games from that kind of like you know challenge run you know type. Ah position is that. You'll find that you have a better eye for noticing that stuff than you think you do like because I certainly until like I'm going to say it wasn't until late late last year that I would say I felt like I really like. Had that kind of eye where I can like pick these things out like because otherwise before that I just felt like I was flailing blindly and you know everyone has like you know different levels of things they notice and pick out but I really do think that more people can like pick up on these things than they think they do they just need to you know. Just kind of need to have a little experience with playing games and that in that particular way is what I think is. 02:24:13.81 Jala So I have a couple of things to say about that first is that um the way that that they don't teach you these things and you can just discover them. Means that it's it's kind of using the skills and the powers and the whatnot in the same way that it's approaching everything else. It's a Metroid bana it's about discovery. It's about you know coming across this stuff and uncovering secrets and things so like. If you're engaging with it on a skill level. You've got secrets to uncover just as you do with the exploration set I think the problem with that approach though is that you know a lot of people are coming to it for the exploration part and not for the skill part. They are coming to it because they like to uncover the secret rooms or whatever solve the puzzles and stuff. 02:25:01.88 Jala They're not necessarily solving the puzzles of the mechanics because um, like Dave mentioned earlier the Metroid games in general tend to you know train you to think? Okay, well the way I can beat this boss is by tanking and doing just these things. So like if the complexity is there is programmed into the game. It's there for you to find if you want to engage with it and that's awesome. Most people aren't going to see it and that's unfortunate. Um, they would see it if it was taught to them. But then. You know you would I feel like you would probably end up hearing more people get mad at the game for requiring you to go through these tutorials and learn how to do these things and you know like maybe they don't want to do that like there's basically no way to make everybody happy but like the fact that they have that there and is discoverable. 02:25:51.69 Jala Is in the spirit of a Metroidvania of having secrets. 02:25:56.27 Moon And by the way did any of us mention that there's a boss named youuza because that's pretty that's pretty great I hear he's called like a dragon in Japan. 02:26:02.29 Dave Not not yet. Yeah, that's that's pretty good and ah makes well they they're changing his name now changing his name now he's gonna be like a dragon everywhere now. This drug. 02:26:14.81 Moon Oh yeah, yeah, I'm um I opened up my gba cartridge day and there was like a so a firmer update like for the game. Yeah on my game boy advance. 02:26:23.13 Moon And now it says like when I get when I when I look into his nomist and file says ah the spider like a dragon. 02:26:30.22 Jala Yeah, so so what else do we have to say about some of the other bosses and stuff I already mentioned security robot security robot and the plant guy are like my favorite fights from there. Um, Ridley is annoying. Nightmare is annoying. Um. 02:26:43.67 Dave Yeah, nightmare was another one of those where I I see what it's doing and I had no idea how am I supposed to avoid this thing. Especially I think it's the second phase when it starts messing with the gravity. 02:26:45.96 Jala I Don't know. 02:27:00.92 Dave And it just kind of like comes down over top of you and then starts pulling you up and you're supposed to shoot missiles up into its cavity or whatever. But yeah, um, but like. 02:27:07.45 Jala Um, it's melting face. 02:27:14.80 Dave You're surrounded by damage on all sides so you could maybe you can like morph ball. But if you're Morph Balling you're not shooting missiles and I want the boss fight to be over as soon as possible. So like that was one where moon like moon and I talked about that as well and. Moon was telling me like oh there's a strategy and I was like well I had no idea because it just comes down over top of me and it ah its hit boxes only from below if I'm remembering right in that phase. Yeah yeah, so that's another one of those like 2. 02:27:41.27 Moon And it's a very hard boss to to truly skill check. 02:27:50.10 Dave The point that Jala made at the beginning where it's like there is skill involved but there is also tanking hits involved in these in these fights which like the fact that you have to tank a hit every now and then's not a big deal. What video game are you going to play where you don't just like tank a hit every now and then. But it's ah it's particularly annoying because you get hit really hard in Metroid games in boss fights and the fact that they're tightly controlling how much energy you have at a given time means that they can anticipate how many hits you can take and keep that pretty consistent except for Sa X fights 02:28:29.30 Dave Um, and when you get into a boss where you're like I have no fucking idea how to avoid damage. It's extra frustrating because you can't heal and your you know capacity to get hit is so limited. 02:28:48.64 Daniel Yeah, it's I remember a Ridtley was a bit of a beast take on of I think a moon actually said in the chat. But which what helped me is that you want to actually use Plasma beam against him instead of the ice missals. Um, but there's like no. No hint about that's what you want to do as far as like doing damage to them is just kind of like this just kills him faster. 02:29:12.90 Dave That's yeah, that's like institutional knowledge that people who are super familiar with Metroid stuff would be like oh Ridley's weak to the plasma beam I know this from other games. 02:29:25.60 Daniel Yeah I mean that's that's not bad, but it's also kind of like you know well could we like you know, kind of make that clear in some way. 02:29:34.18 Dave Make a different animation different different yell when you hit it with the plasma beam something like that I I think every Ridley fight that I've ever had in any Metroid game is among the worst boss fights in get in video games in my opinion I can't stand them and ah. When I played 1 and Ridley wasn't there I was like thank god. 02:29:56.31 Moon I I will point out that I'll add myself to the Ridley Hate Club now I don't I don't hate hate hate really I do think he is generally not the strongest boss in most games that he's in like I haven't played a I haven't. Fought Ridley in the mericry games in quite a while. So I'm not going to include those in my judgment. But for the 2 d Metroid games like Wrigley is like consistently really frustrating like specifically as like kind of more someone who tries to play these games in like a skill-based manner when I can. Like superma radio was frustrating because you got to him and he was he was he was the 1 boss who I felt couldn't really be skilled at all despite everything like like like and then thing is I know it's possible like there are definitely videos out there of no hit runs against Rodley there's definitely. 02:30:49.77 Moon A method to the madness. You can learn but it just felt like if you didn't have like for most players if you just didn't have enough energy tanks and stuff you were just going to die and in ah this one too. It's like it's not a hard boss at all, but it is one of those ones where like I'm just going to tank hits. It's like. 02:31:07.20 Moon there is kind of a trap where I feel like most people are going to use their super missiles because you know why wouldn't they you know you want to use the you want to use the items you can spam that do as much or more damage but ridily traditionally in all these games is also traditionally weaked to the Plasma Beam. So like not only does the plasma when you have like. A multi-jointed hip box I'll do more damage to him but also it ah but also it um, it'll like stun him more and get him to like freeze for a moment and stuff like that. So you know. 02:31:37.51 Daniel Yeah, and I think in the in super he actually like caught missiles and just threw them away if my memory serves as well. Um, guy it's Sp's been while I might be misremembering I know I know in one like the easiest way taken down was to cheese him. 02:31:41.43 Moon Oh really I don't remember that for the reason. 02:31:54.23 Daniel Ah, you lived he was like on a platform above a lava pit and like the easiest way was to have the wave beam and just shoot up through the platform. So that way you didn't have to deal with any of his projectile bullshit at all and just take the damage from the lava and be like okay, it's good I'm done. 02:32:12.13 Jala Yeah, that sounds like something I probably would have tried if I were playing that one. So yeah and then like a megamattroyd is really predictable and pretty a very pretty flat of a boss fight I mean ah they. 02:32:27.42 Daniel Yeah, it's it's It's very much. Yeah, it's it's It's just like it's the last thing It's like the the essay X is the real final boss and this is just like oh it's just like um. 02:32:27.50 Moon Is very simplistic. 02:32:43.73 Jala It and because you have a timer going at that point. It's just like oh get the hell out of my way I am I am on a time limit and now I got to fight this thing and I got to get out of here and that's what it more feels like is just like. 02:32:45.34 Daniel Nice low button here at the end. 02:32:59.52 Jala It is the obstacle. It's the last wall you have to you know overcome after you've already actually fought the boss you know. So. 02:33:06.21 Moon And it's kind of a victory lap in the same way that mother brain after you get the hyper beam is a victory lap in Super Meroid and with a similar setup too. They kind of echo that where like you just about get killed then the sx comes out of nowhere to. 02:33:24.10 Moon Fight the omega Metroid right? and then you absorb the x when it gets defeated and you know you just kind of like go wild on the omega me right? and I guess it is I don't really I don't even really think of the o mega Metroid in terms of being like a final boss I just kind of think of it in terms of being like. The final representation of like Sam' ' power where she's like regained all her power but also like she is the she is the top Metroid in this camp y'all like you know, like no other Metroid's going to go to stand in her way like like you know it's you know, just again like you know it's. 02:33:51.85 Daniel And fifth with but. 02:33:58.26 Moon Ah, we didn't really talk have time to talk about this like you know it's like you know alien Resurrection was a pretty big influence for Metroid fusion and the same way that the previous 3 alien movies are respectively pretty influential on the last 3 Metroid games. So you know britley becomes part alien in that one so you know there's. 02:34:17.28 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So do we have any other big thoughts about bosses or do we want to move on to themes and some wrap up stuff themes and wrap up it sounds like okay so yeah themes. Yeah yeah. 02:34:17.59 Moon A lot of that stuff there as well. And. 02:34:29.75 Dave Yeah, think I got it out of my system. 02:34:36.41 Jala We got themes themes folks so we got horror and body horror. We already talked about this this is like ah the pursuit elements which we'll go into a little bit more here. Ah you've got the body horror with samus and having all the armor torn off and all of that like surgically removed and. You know the inner fights of the the x and the Meroids fighting inside of her body and all kinds of mess like that also I would even say like the body horror of like. Adam's consciousness you find out being uploaded as an ai maybe without his permission nick. 02:35:14.56 Moon I yeah, it's very very much kind of like leans into like like there's very much like kind of a theme of control in retro fusion which I think you kind of see like with Adam like kind of like being. Basically like the federation kind of commodifying people like you know Adam's mind is uploaded to continue service after his death um samus they see an opportunity to get more samus basically via the sax and they don't care. They're going to stop. They're going to deceive her and they're going to get more samuses so that they can. You know, create their own army to do whatever it is they want I guess or whatever it is they think that they can accomplish like like these people are foolish enough to try to clone the Metroids a bunch of times I'm sure they're foolish enough to think that it's a good idea to you know, get ah an evil x parasite samus and. 02:36:07.93 Moon And like you know the theme of control kind of like dovetails with how like the game is designed too because you know it is a very linear game. You don't really Samus like is being stripped of power and of agency and you're kind of going on this very linear trek through the game where the federation and your computer are kind of commanding you the whole time. And you know it kind of continues upwards up until you get we kind of allude to this earlier but late in the game when you finally start to kind of like like you're still as far as the game design is concerned. You're still on a linear track like when you advance forward, you are finding the only path forward that you as a player are allowed to take. But because you're not being told by the computer and in fact, the computer is sometimes chastising you for things that you do it kind of creates more of that illusion of you kind of like breaking out of control which I wish they kind of made that more literally. It would been very very interesting if suddenly this became a more traditional Metroid game late in the game as. Samus kind of says you know fuck you society I do what I want or whatever and like you know and then of course you know Adam and himself also breaks from the control when he kind of forsakes the federation to help Sam as you know destroy the space station and. 02:37:18.67 Moon I Just think it's really really interesting How there's such strong like ludo narrative cohesion in that way. Even though I wish at the end they made that just a little bit more like meaningful from a gameplay perspective rather than just sort of like the illusion of oh you're not being told to go this way but it is indeed The only way you can go. Type stuff. Okay. 02:37:34.23 Jala Yeah, it kind of reminds me of if you've played ICEY in that game like the the narrator tells you where to go in that game and. 02:37:45.90 Jala You can go in those directions but you can also go in other directions and then the narrator will talk to you about you know doing just that and it'll get snarky with you or he will get snarky with you about oh and then you know. Then she'd blatantly just but you know disregarded the instructions that she was given and this that and the other and like it kind of goes from there in like a Stanley parable kind of way. Um, and I really dig that aspect of that game. Although I do want to go back to it and like dig into it a little bit more. 02:38:17.74 Jala But anyway like it would be more fun if they had had the capacity back when they made fusion to give Adam that kind of flavor where it's like no, you actually have like ah a more open map. At this point you literally can do a whole bunch of other things and what you do is up to you and. The ai Adam reacts to that and they just script a bunch of different things for him to say in response to whatever nonsense thing you decide to go do on your own that would be cool, but ah, that is not what the hardware has in store for us for this game so you know such as it is. It's still pretty cool. Anyway. 02:38:54.99 Jala Ah, thematically Speaking. So ah, we also have hunter Prey Relationships. You've got the Metroid in X you have samus and s a X Ah, all of those things going On. You could even say you have like the federation and samus. You know, whatever you can. You can kind of project that into a bunch of different situations. 02:39:14.60 Moon You you also oh sorry, go on. Okay I was going to say like about the essayx in particular like there is so much multifaceted you can pull out of what's going on with the essay x because on 1 hand like it's obviously you know like a dark mirror of samus. 02:39:16.80 Dave Um, yeah, this oh go ahead. Man. 02:39:33.95 Moon But also like there are some interesting things going on with how like like when they when we say that samus has become the hunted like the hunter has become the hunted. You know I think the tagline said back in the day like they do they showcase it in multiple ways because like you know. Samus. It's not just a matter of oh Samus is facing things stronger than her. It's that samus is now a Metroid and she is being chased by you know quotation Mark Samus and this other samus hunts her in a very similar way if you end up in a ah in a encounter an open encounter with the ax. 8 will fire the ice beam at you to freeze you and then fire a super missile the exact same thing Samus does to Metroidy's in the other game. She fires the ice beams followed by a super by super misssiles to kill them and then like it gets even even more wild because you get to the final encounter and. 02:40:28.30 Moon Samus hat and you know Samus has ice. You know has ice missiles plus she has you know the way be the the plasza meme is the important thing you know possess the thing that can damage the a x so while the a x is running around and shooting you know ice beams at you followed by a super missile us Samus. And said well I didn't do this way because I found another way that can easily kill the sx not having to do this but I feel like the most apparent way to fight the essayx and I tested to make sure this works is that you fire an ice missile to freeze the essayx and then fire a beam instead. So while they're firing beams followed by missiles at you. You're firing missiles followed by beams and kind of creates this. Cool little like Yin and Yang thing between the between the 2 entities right? and it's yeah, it's just a lot of stuff I never would have thought of before I don't know why I never thought of it before but you know there's just a lot of really. 02:41:18.74 Moon Really, you know there's a lot of thought put into like how they present certain things between the gameplay and the narrative and. 02:41:22.48 Jala Yeah, and then even in the the last last fight when you're fighting the omega Metroid you just absorbed the s a X and now you're the a X and you're fighting the Metroid in the very last fight. So. 02:41:38.44 Dave Moon I'll tell you why you never thought of it before and it's because for as much as this game talks. The only thing they want to talk about is what's going on with the S a X and what part of the station. It's moving toward. So there are. 02:41:52.75 Dave A lot of cool things like that you brought up and then like when we get into you know, talking about the theme of you know Thomas is deep like humanity her human side decreasing being replaced by other stuff. All of that stuff is on you to think about and so for as cool as. Some of this stuff is the game is not ah, particularly interested in making you think about it. It's all on you to think it's interesting and then think about it and come up with your own thing but it's it's on you to put that thought in your head in the first place. Which is an issue I have when I think about some of the themes that I think are really cool and at the beginning I said that this is one of my favorite Metroid stories. But it's not because of what is happening in the game. It's it's all the stuff that like you know I've sat back and thought about oh you know. This game is focusing on the ecology of this. Ah this this planet and these predator prey relationships in a way that sci-fi and a lot of video games. Don't ever think about Um, but all this is on me to think about really and I think that's part of why this is all like. Ah, the game didn't say this and I didn't realize it until blah blah blah blah blah it's because the game doesn't really care whether you think about it or not I think they put it in there and they don't care if you get it and if you do get it. It's a nice little bonus I think. 02:43:19.00 Moon Yeah, the yeah 1 and one thing I can't remember if 1 of us said this earlier in the podcast. But I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of people kind of like they kind of miss the more like environmental storytelling and kind of like hidden themes of the game is because. 02:43:38.93 Moon The direct storytelling that's being told to you like you mentioned Dave is so loud and so persistent and the game's kind of rushing you along that you're just not most people just aren't really going to like really sit and have the think about this stuff. But. 02:43:51.90 Jala So something that I want to add to that is just like I said earlier about how these advanced skill sets that you can learn these little tricks with all of the different tools that you're given you know you've got this. At your disposal. You can discover it or not discover it and you can still play the game I feel like a lot of the environmental storytelling aspects as well as all of the stuff that we're discussing thematically that's happening here is like the equivalent of the Narrative Metroid Vania right? like these are things that you can discover. But you know like when you're just going through the game. You're not going to see it if you want to you can dig into it and you can discover these things and think about them on your own like you can go in the environments and you can you know, try banging your head on every single wall until you find the breakables. And get into the new areas and this that and the other to find all the secret things there you can also grapple with the skills in just such a way to learn more stuff there and there's like deeper layers. It's like layers of plot like it was in there. They didn't just like. Put this put the the concept of you know this flip flopping of the Metroid and essay ah or the Metroid in the X and samus and the Metroid and the X and the hunter Prey relationships and these different fights where these things are topsyturvy and and um, inverted like they didn't do all of that completely. 02:45:21.49 Jala By coincidence this was in here for a reason whether or not you see it is up to you. It's like you can get the 46% complete or you can get the 100% complete and it's up to you to put that work in there to get whatever you're going to get out of this game. Be that a fun game that is an action game that you can do. 02:45:40.39 Jala You know your action e things and get your Metroid fix and move on or if it is digging in to get your 100% or your um, you know, no damage skill play or whatever. 02:45:53.42 Dave And it's also I think this is part of the reason that this game gets derided a little bit ah by ah, people criticize you know the way that the the game is structured but they also criticize the amount of time that you are. Ah, basically being talked to and told where to go and then do you understand your mission please confirm that you understand your mission and the amount of text for the amount of text that this game has there's um, there's very little text dedicated to all the cool stuff that you mostly you 3 have been talking about. 02:46:27.65 Dave Ah, with ah the relationship between Adam and and psalus and the next thing we have here to talk about which is the the theme of ah you know what is humanity and to what point are you less more human than the human less human than you once were or something like that. Because the game doesn't talk about this and I think this is a big missed opportunity someis has these monologues where you might be riding an elevator and Samus is thinking about what's going on but she's never thinking about the stuff that I feel like she should be thinking about. She's not thinking. 02:47:05.72 Dave Like oh my god I have all this different I have at least 3 different 4 different types of Dna in my body at this point choso human ah human right she's part human right? Yeah ah and then Metroid and now x. 02:47:25.50 Dave Seems like it would be an existential thing for somebody to think about and I know that Someis is like the stoic badass character. But these are long elevators you got time to sit and think about what's going on with your body and she I went through to confirm because I didn't notice it when I played. But I went through to confirm today. The Monologues are mostly about Adam they're about ah you know, thinking about what is the sa x capable of the danger of the x the cute animals that you meet she never thinks about what's going on with her own body and. Want to talk about 1 of the coolest things about this game which is the body horror the other horror elements. The um, the story. The way that the s ax is imitating her using her abilities against her. She does not seem to care about it. And so I think it goes a little bit by the wayside which is a shame because I think this is the coolest part about this game from a story perspective. The stuff that they're yelling at you and making sure that you know, please confirm that you understand the danger of the x that's less. Much less interesting to me the story about the the federation and that stuff that is that's sci-fi one. Oh 1 level stuff. You know the the corporation is evil we we understand but this is the cool stuff and it's a shame that it's buried. 02:49:00.30 Daniel Um, it should you know like this is this is the first Metroid because this was even before this was like right before prime came out where there is like even like talking like a super has like an introduction where it's like kind of explaining like. 02:49:18.20 Daniel Events of 1 and 2 but like there's no other dialogue that entire time there's no no dialogue in the original 2 from what I remember it's been a while that I know one doesn't really have anything either you know and but the most you ever get is like you know. The me sequence where like you finish the game fast enough and hey it's Sam in the bikini there. You go that like that's the most character development you get in those games. Um, so like I guess I guess what I'm saying is like this is probably like them trying to find Samus voice and like. 02:49:53.49 Daniel Maybe not really like to seek succeeding in the way where the player can like it's like identifying with ah like the particular points you brought up. So yeah, that's that's kind of 1 thing is like it's just like them not getting those points across was just like they. Hadn't quite figured out exactly how to how sanus is essentially. 02:50:19.10 Jala Nick I will get to you but let me say something first. Um, we all like with you in the middle of Dave talking. Everybody's little hand went up and everybody's just like oh oh meet next me next so I have something to say about um Samus long rides in the elevator and not. 02:50:30.22 Daniel Um, we had a lot to say. 02:50:35.29 Jala You know tuning in with her body. Um, just from like again, the body horror perspective and being a signed female at Birth myself like um for me the way that reads is like samus has just had her suit. Surgically removed from her body. She's not really like she's even less human than she was before she just woke up and now she's got like Metroid in her. She's got suit pieces torn off she may or may not ever recover and look normal again and she can't think about that right now she can't have like. 02:51:07.71 Jala All of that cluttering up her head space when she can't hesitate she has to do whatever she needs to do to get this crisis managed before she can even think about any of that. So like she's not having an existential crisis because she doesn't have time. She's in crisis Mode. She is trying to finish this thing get rid of the the threat. Save the whole universe like her own body is like the least of her worries at this juncture actually as long as it's functioning. 02:51:33.54 Daniel You You just she's just there and it's like well I guess I just eat boogers Now you know. 02:51:42.53 Dave That that makes sense I mean that makes sense to me that she's in in crisis mode I Just think that it's a missed opportunity with a game that has this opportunity to have the hero go through some kind of existential. Ah. 02:51:59.79 Dave Human crisis like this instead during the time when she has to think she's she seems to be thinking about some stuff that is pressing you know the threat of the s a x but then there's a lot of stuff about Adam when. We just talked to Adam I'm not sure that we needed more stuff about Adam when we could have you know had her side of this thing as well. I guess it's like what you said totally makes sense. It's just to me a missed opportunity for what I think is the coolest part about the story. 02:52:33.79 Jala Yeah, for sure and the other part of what I wanted to say to going on about Adam and I promise Nick you're next like you were being patient. Um is that. 02:52:45.85 Jala Ah, it it kind of reminds me of the beckel test right? So a beckel test meaning like if there's 2 or more lady characters and they are sitting there and they are talking. Are they talking about guys you know and you know is that's like the beckel test. Well like this this is just same as having a monologue. But. 02:53:04.50 Jala She still fails the backdale test because she is she's just talking about Adam if it's not the crisis right? It's always Adam Adam Adam you know like she's not thinking about her. We already mentioned. Okay, she's in crisis mode but like you know all she's thinking about is him constantly. So. 02:53:24.28 Jala Nick Feel free. 02:53:26.50 Moon It's also like really adding on to what both of you said, especially what Dave said about like all these monologues being spent on Adam is like you could have removed just about you could have just like removed anything that was said in those monologues. And maybe in like a little intro cut scene. Add a little bit about how Adam used to call her lady and the ending still would have hit the exact same with like that reveal like it didn't really add like like I get that they kind of had the instinct that they wanted to make it clear to you that this character you never heard of. 02:54:00.14 Moon Has actually always been on Samus's mind even though like there's some canon weirdness because the way fusion talks about it. Adam is someone who she knew and who died a long time ago. But then of course in other end we find out that he died literally right before the events of fusion. So. I guess that would explain why he weighs so heavy on her mind but it's still like it's it's like what you said Jalla like Betel Test this is this a Metroid like you have this one of like the original like o g lady badasses in video games and literally the first thing that happens when she starts talking beyond the intro cut scene is oh a man. And it's like come on like yeah. 02:54:40.97 Dave It's I'm sure we'll talk about it I think we're saving it for later. Maybe that whole lady comment but from my perspective from my perspective. Um Samus is a badass female character that also. 02:54:50.50 Daniel Um, hoo boy. 02:54:58.37 Dave Every game reminds you that the game is made by men and that's that that's the takeaway I take away from a lot of these you mentioned earlier that like you beat the game in under 3 hours you get to see her in a bikini and that's what she really wanted right? and it's like and this is another one of those things where it's like. Yes, she is the ultimate badass but also guess what's on her mind all the time. 02:55:25.50 Jala We can go ahead and mention that lady comment here. We alluded to it earlier. We talked about it here. Um, ah, according to a link that was found by Nick which I will put in the show notes. 02:55:37.40 Jala Ah, the Metroid manga reveals that Adam called Samus lady as a reminder of who she was when not in battle hoping she would quote rate retain her decency and identity you remain being a good little girl samus. 02:55:56.59 Daniel Yeah, it he when I first played this when I first played this game and I saw that alliance like this is really awkward like it's that we felt it's like I figured like and. Somehow I maintain this belief up until the present day until we've like brought this up in the chat that like it must have been like some kind of weird translation where it's like some kind of japanese honorific that just doesn't like come over well into english and like that was the close to get but they like no no, it is just like. Oh yeah, you're a little lady all right like hot. It's just like just like not the worst but man it's bad. 02:56:39.46 Jala So the irony here for me is that like me growing up me being a sign female at birth me going into a crisis mode much like I'm projecting on samus here myself all right like I get into a crisis mode I shut down all of my emotions and I'm not thinking about myself I'm thinking about. Taking care of the crisis on hand I do this myself. So ah, this is why I projected on samus. Well ah when I heard the the lady part you know any objections lady or whatever um to me that actually reminded me of a lot of times when I've been around people that I care about you know a a partner or whatever and like. I am in crisis mode and I am not seeing things like I normally see things and to kind of bring me back to who I am as a person when I'm not in crisis mode people will like you know, um, say a cute nickname that they have for me or something like that to try to like remind me to kind of come back from. Where I've gone to and so like this doesn't come across as being we like at least the first time I played the game and since then like I've never thought about it as being weird until you know that with where we're reading here and like oh oh no way they actually they mean it in a gross way but like. It is in alignment with what happens when someone is in a hardcore mode and they are sealing themselves off and somebody is trying to recall them back to themselves when you are dealing with some hard shit. So like it's a weird thing where like now it feels gross and terrible thing. 02:58:11.66 Jala Jed thanks for this information then just kind of wreck correct that for me but you know it's good to know anyway, that that is the spirit that it is made in and I should not be happy about it. Nick. 02:58:22.62 Moon I and it was kind of a already alluded to when Daniel said this but just to make it explicit like when we say like what Adam Calls Sam and japanese it is literally just the trans literration of lady like if you look on like the translation. It's like it's like are ready ari. 02:58:41.28 Moon A e d I I someone like that like it's it's literally just the kind of Kata Kaa is that what that is a translation of yeah yeah, yeah, it's like like it is quite literally late. It's not like some special honorific that didn't translate over like is quite literally specifically. Yeah. 02:58:55.20 Jala That was how we found that information in the first place because I was like I wonder what that actually was in Japan what the word was in japanese and then Nick was looking for it and then found out. No, it's actually the katakana of re and um, oh okay. 02:59:11.76 Jala We didn't know that and then it was like oh oh and also here let let me tell you a little bit more about that particular line. So right right? Okay, so let's run through some bullet really quick bullet points to wrap this up. 02:59:20.18 Daniel Ignorance is Bliss 02:59:28.33 Jala Because we are now on 3 hours and ticking look dave. It's another three and a half hour podcast with the earth really like all right? Okay, so so um, ah last little theme question though like the questions that are interesting is like what is your duty to um Sam. 02:59:34.13 Dave I'm here. This is what I do. 02:59:48.60 Jala Has destroyed an entire world trying to unfuck the thing that she fucked up in the prior games by fucking everything else up further so that it doesn't then take over the galaxy and destroy everything else. So um, she's trying to undo her past mistake. Ok, um. Obviously the federation is you know evil corporation bad um her duty is to what to the safe safety of the galaxy. Yeah I don't know like ah what's Adam's duty to well it's to the federation at first and then like. Once he's been awakened with his his ah you know former self or whatever when samus calls him Adam then suddenly he's like I'm team samus all the way I don't I don't care about these federation folks. But. 03:00:37.78 Dave Yeah, this so duty is ah it's a tough one to make me like really care about. You know the push and pull of duty. Um, and this is not a game and not a story where like your duty. Goes up against doing the right thing you know like the the choices that psalus makes at the end of the game is clearly like the federation is capital e evil and the good right thing to do is to break from that and go against ah whatever they want. So. It's not really a compelling thing to me that Thomas and Adam are just like you know what? screw the federation. We're going to do it ourself and then that thing at the end one of them will understand and it's like. They're like terrified of someis some is is gonna be fine who gives a shit what the federation thinks about her. So this this is not a story where this is a ah a really compelling theme to me I think it's been done much better in other places. 03:01:44.68 Moon And since it was since ah since that Dave kind of allude to it I just want to bring this up the game ends on this pretty massive cliffhanger that implies that samus would somehow have to like. Literally just like base trial for what she did like opposing the federation like kind of ends with like you know oh we don't know we hope someone listens to us but they're going to hold responsible for what happened and then in Metroid dread you know waiting like 20 years for nearly twenty years for this follow up. And it's literally like it never happened like there's no acknowledgement given to like Samus potentially being a fugitive from justice or anything like that. So I guess the obvious joke answers someone listened I guess like Toy Adams said they would but the but yeah. 03:02:30.22 Dave Yeah, one of them will understand and 1 of them did flip. 03:02:36.74 Moon And the other the other facet of that I want to point out is I actually forgot to talk about ah this with y'all earlier before we recorded but I did not do research on this So I can't verify myself. But apparently the idea of the federation in entirety being evil. Was a failure of translation whereas in the Japanese script it apparently makes it clear that this is a specific rogue wing of the federation that's doing this and not like the federation as a whole which on 1 hand Press X to Doubt. I Don't buy. It's but I don't buy it especially when you go to other M where what was chey fair other M does make it more explicit that the there is a rogue wing of the federation doing evil things there but still it just seems so like impossible to believe or like. Oh we didn't know what these guys were doing over here. No Sir So I don't know it that take that way you will. But I thought that was an interesting detail. 03:03:40.98 Daniel Ah, yeah I do think that's interesting I do like it is kind of like ah that that gets dropped in dread altogether there like. Like some things ive thought about like kind of like Rick 5 as like bsl is like a megacorp as opposed to like just the government. It's like a contractor almost I mean there's no no evidence of that whatsoever is far as you can tell is just like a federation facility. Essentially but mean like like the idea that is a Rogue wing. It's like yeah, not a question but like there's there's just no follow through at all. So It's like there's just this thing is just Thread. We dropped with which is a shame but like it would be kind of hard to like fit that in when they wanted to like. When I want to tell a story about essentially like the choso in dread. 03:04:29.48 Jala So moving on to just some some final questions. So as a piece of sci-fi media. What is this particular game bringing to the table. We kind of already talked about it like for me, it's funny because like. You know for me, it's like traditional spaceship sci-fi place with some potentially interesting deeper questions. But as Dave pointed out none of those are like directly addressed in the game itself. So like even though it's there for you to. Examine if you want to. It's not in the main line at all like the material is there. You can look at it or not look at it and you know still play the game and enjoy it which is wild. So it's kind of bringing stuff but like obliquely. 03:05:22.59 Dave Yeah, and the stuff that is on front street like I said before is is pretty Bog standard sci-fi like the the evil corporation will ah cut ties with you the second it becomes most convenient to do so and when they have a better option. The expendability of people. It's all this is it's sci-fi one oh one, especially space sci-fi um, what's cool to me that this game brings is like that ecology aspect that we've we've talked about before the fact that you. Heroically genocided the meoids in Metroid 2 um, except for that that little baby. Um, you finished that game thinking like I did a good thing and then now oh no, the consequences of my own actions are back which is something that unless you get into a series that has direct sequels and not even then ah you don't always see the consequences of your actions in these games especially from this perspective if you're wiping Out. You know what you perceive to be an evil species. Well. That Evil species was suppressing an even worse species. So Now you have to deal with that and so I think that's along with the body horror of course and the technology that allows the body horror in this game. That's the sci-fi aspect that. I come away from this appreciating the most. 03:06:55.61 Moon So yeah and following up on what Dave said I think I mentioned this earlier but just to restate it for you know for simplicity is that the consequences of your own actions. Also follow directly into this game and how it progresses because there's kind of like this buildup of like. Oh well because you are part Metroidit and you're here the x are going to do everything they can to hunt you down and then you know you go get missiles from a dad of room ergo. They're going to knock the elevators out and try trap you um, you're gonna head to this next sector and try to fight. Try to um, get more upgrades make you more powerful but to do so you have to open a security lock which allows x to go into you know another sector and it makes the problem worse I think one of the coolest ones that they actually don't directly tell you about that like because you do see it sometimes like you'll open a security room in sector 3 and then you'll step out and suddenly when there was no x before all of a sudden x start flooding in but there was also um, a coal one later on where later on when Samus directly defying orders and she um opens the ah level 4 security lock and that actually allows the box security robot that's gone rogue. To inter sector 6 into parts that can only be accessed by that door by that security clearance which you know it is a security robot. It is probably is probably it probably has some relationship to the rules of security in that way and you know it's just kind of this neat interplay like you do this therefore this happens like it's this constant Tug of War between samus and just like the forces in general at the station whether it be the X or the box security robot or anything else. 03:08:37.28 Dave Yeah, so a lot of those those choices you make are not perfect choices and like they know that when they decide like oh we're going to have to open these security doors stuff is going to get through but like we can't worry about that right now we have to open the door and it's kind of a um, a cool almost horror type choice that's being made. 03:08:56.19 Jala Yeah, it's like a Pandora's box being opened every single time you have to make one of these choices right? So Daniel. 03:09:10.20 Daniel I mean not much say we've pretty much covered it. All of all the points I can come up with regarding that like that Dave and Nick pretty much like nailed it right there? Um, like just this is a good game. 03:09:23.60 Jala We already talked before about like okay so Metroid didn't really have any talky bits until this. So ah, this game obviously built up more of samus's story. 03:09:27.32 Daniel Definitely play it, don't listen to the haters. 03:09:41.58 Jala Personality Although also unfortunately doing stuff like up she fails V Del test. The only things she can think about is a man um and things like that. But um, were there any other aspects of samus as a character that you liked that they did here. 03:10:02.45 Daniel Um, I mean a lot a lot of the beats that like Samus had aside from like the entire Adam Thing it's it just kind of builds on what was in the previous games. Love. Because mean you don't get yeah again with with the talkietalkie it is like we said it's about Adam or critters or the ax like that's what's on our mind for the most part but as far as like you know, yeah you know talking about like. Herby and christmoan can't think about like this situation's fucked up. You know we can't you know I like Dave said I would have liked seen more of that like see that built on um ba sannis is a badass and like comes through quite well in this I think you know given she's sent on this with like none of her like power ups and not even her like a rich you know pretty much iconic suit that she's had since beginning more or less. You know is. And like being able to like take that situation and like make the best of it. It's like it's it just that sameus right? there. 03:11:22.17 Moon It seems that this is the first of the numbered Metroid games that doesn't explicitly have some kind of like motherhood theme tied to it because like the original Metroid like has like you know it's. You know there's it's it's much thinner there but you know there's all that talk about like you know the mother brain and the Metroids what nott then Metroid 2 you know you have samus exterminating basically all these queens babies and then at the last moment having a change of heart because. Sakamoto thinks you know samus inherently has motherly instincts as a woman like so she you know lets the baby survive and then of course supermaro you know, kind of plays with the consequences of that but that infusion like like aside from like the the baby Metroid's Dna like you know. Like you are still dealing with the consequences from Metroid to like Dave mentioned and also the baby Metroid Dna saves Samwi's the beginning but there isn't much of a through line of like any particular person in image reffusion really like being a mother figure of any kind like Metroid to other m of course triples down on it like. Oh trust me if you if you were upset that there were no motherhood themes in Metroid fusion like they they make up for it and Metroid is all about that. But Metroidric fusion feels like maybe it's the first one that's not specifically about that and then dread kind of continues in that direction. Thank god but. 03:12:50.57 Jala Well for the only thing that I can think of Offhand would be just the fact that there's samus clones everywhere. They are s a X but they are you know clones of samus that now that she is less and less human the way that she writtens up. Reproducing right? is by like having this X who then spawns other X's and then there's a bunch of her basically running around because they all get her memories and her this and then that right like so I mean not not really because they're cloning off of the suit but like they're they're spawning and they're learning some of the same stuff that she's got and you know they're mimicking her and growing off of her from seeing her in action from having her tools so sort of. I mean like it's cloning. But you know it's it's it's interesting because it's not a motherhood theme but she's also less and less human in this game. Um, now with all of this different Dna. So the way that she's you know partaking is like these wild children that are all just ah evil clones. Overall though, um, how much relevance does this have for you in like a modern era like for me when I first played it I didn't really think too much about, um, you know of course like the mechanics felt modern at the time they still feel. Great like this game play feels great to play like it's not one of those experiences where you play a game from twenty years ago and you go god this is clunky and terrible to play like it feels solid. The mechanics are still great. So mechanically speaking you know it still holds up the controls still hold up and everything. A lot of the the game in general to me just holds up on a replay in a way that is not necessarily the case for other games that I have like fond memories of as a child um or a college age human whatever? Um, but. Insofar as like politics and current issues and stuff looking at this with a 2023 lens is very different because we have the climate crisis and we've gone through a pandemic and we've had all of these other things we've had so many terrible things happen politically and like looking at this game with the lens. These days is a very interesting experience to like reflect back on it. Um, that's the way that I will summarize you know like how it feels to me in the modern era Dave how about you. 03:15:25.51 Dave I guess approaching this from like my normal angle which is mostly gameplay focused story of course too. But in the modern era like when I when I think about Metroid fusion this is a turning point. In a lot of ways like with the way that the Metroid series is gone especially the the 2 d ones and if you're talking about original ideas I'm not talking about psalmist returns here and I didn't play other m so if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but. This is the way that the series has gone started with fusion dread is like a like a or more refined version of this in some ways and then in some ways it's not There's some things that fusion does much better than dread. Um, even things they're trying to iterate on ind dread like the Emmys I think are way worse than the s ax. They really knocked it out of the park with the s ax and I think they're chasing that dragon. Um, but that's kind of my like take on playing it in the modern age as you can see this turning point. In the series and it's kind of got me thinking like there's other final fantasy in zelda are in the zeitgeist right now and those are also long running series that have taken big turns in the direction of the series and Metroid did the same thing and for all of those series. There are a subset of long-term fans that are just they just cannot accept that series evolve and this is the turning point for Metroid I think and I'm not opposed to it I mean I like this game I like dread I like 0 mission a lot That's my favorite Metroid game. Ah, which is a lot more of the older style of Metroid it's just it's a remake so just making it feel better to play. But when I yeah like I said like when I play Metroid fusion again and I can kind of like take scope now that I've played more of the series. Um, that's really. What I come back to. This is the first Metroid game that feels great to play in my opinion and it is a turning point for the design of the series. 03:17:52.55 Daniel Yeah I don't want to like just kind of repeat what Dave said because like that mirrors a lot of my thoughts where this was like a this is this was a shift as far as like what Metroid is essentially. Ah. Again, land with as we mentioned this like not everybody received that very well you know it was it. Yeah, it wasn't super so disappointed a lot of folk but like the folks who enjoy this really really enjoy this and like in as far as like Monday it it holds up so well, it like surprisingly well yet 2002 we're talking 20 years it like most games ah from that time like shouldn't feel as good as this this does like it. It holds up somehow like it just maybe part of that is because like dread is a relatively recent release and maybe because I played it a couple years ago this is like no you know that's why it feels that way to me. So maybe I am kind of like looking through it with like kind of a rose colored lenses. 03:19:00.27 Jala I haven't played much of Dread but I was like my hands know what to do with this. You know like I still remembered the Metroid Fusion controls and everything felt familiar and like I didn't have to go Oh what button is it I Knew you know? um so it felt very natural so like ah if you've played dread and you like dread. And for some reason you haven't played fusion or it's been a long time since you played fusion. Um, if you play in like dread you will like fusion for you know, similar reasons. 03:19:46.31 Moon I um I guess really all I have to say like you know I agree with you all the game holds up very very very well and this like I notice about like platformers and action games on the game boy advancer particular I narrow it to that just because I don't really play much in the way of. You know, rpgs and whatnot I I know the fire emblems from the Gpa could apparently be rough in a way or 2 so I'm not going to speak to genres I don't touch but at least in terms of the kind of games I do like the game boy advance really felt like it was kind of like in a way like the last hurrah because like that was the last like. Mainline console slash you know handheld that where everything was two d so you had all like the biggest developers you had Nintendo you had Capcom you had square like all these like big aaa studios were making 2 d games. In a way that they knew how to make 2 d games like they'd been. They had had a pretty firm grasp on it during the superintendent era and they really had a firm grasp on it now and like most gba games at least in most of the ways that really matter they just feel pretty ageless to me in that way and Metroid fusion might be 1 of the best examples like. I'm not I'm not a coder but if I was going to make a game boy advance emelator for some reason I would call it g based because that's what the gpa is it is based. It is very very very cool and Metroid fusion is like arguably an apex pre for as an example for that. 03:21:11.67 Jala You better, not eliminate anything else that might potentially be in the ecosystem or you might throw things out of whack and that is that is I think all of our wrap up thoughts about this game all right. So one last time I will have everybody talk about their stuff Daniel since you're the easiest one to ask where can people be if people find you on the internet if you are to be found or what do you want to plug or whatever. 03:21:48.92 Daniel I'm mostly on Mastodon you can find me there as ah at a madastadon.social under sandwichdoo. That's about the main thing if I've got like other social accounts I just don't check anymore. But if if you want like see that the occasional post and like a ton of free reposts on there. That's where you go. That's right. 03:22:21.11 Moon I'm known in most places as triple s moon spelled exactly like it sounds. You can find me on Youtube patreon Twitter Discord tumblr basically anywhere under that name. 03:22:38.39 Dave You can find tales from the backlog wherever you're listening to this unless it's on like Jaless Kofi page you can't find my show on there. But if you're listening on a podcast app you can find tales from the backlog by searching for tales from the backlog and. I'm also on Twitter at tftblpod where that is that's where I'm most active on social media. Although ah, you will also find me frequently in various Discord servers including moons and jallas so and my own of course I'm I'm also present in my own server. But yeah, that's where you can find me. Um, my other show is called a top three podcast. That's the number 3 and um, yeah, yeah, thank you Ah Jalla thank you so much for ah the invite and ah moon and Daniel thank you for the conversation. 03:23:30.10 Jala Yeah, so of course, um, you can find me anywhere that I might be found @jalachan in places including where you found this episode and all the others jalachan dot place. So I want to say thank you to everybody who has been on the show. For three and a half hours recording and then thank you to all the listeners if you're still listening to have been listening for this long so you are all very awesome and so that is all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile.