[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Adelaide (she/her) and Zombi (they/them). How are you both doing today. 00:12.24 Zombi I I am alive Oh sorry. 00:14.35 Adelaide I'm good, but no, it's okay I'm do it. Okay. 00:21.75 Zombi I'm just alive. How are you? Jala. 00:23.50 Jala I I'm I'm still sweaty from trying to install the new air unit in my office. Um, but that's okay, it is installed Now it is quiet. It is cool and since it is coming up on Summer I Am glad this happened before Summer Occurred. Um, so yeah I can't complain. 00:43.94 Zombi And absolutely no I think they'd love to hear the the little story involving Dave there. Yeah. 00:48.79 Jala Ah, okay okay I'll go ahead and tell I'll go ahead and tell this story so when we were rushing to install this air unit this afternoon like I had to take off some time from work after it arrived for us to get it installed before recording time. So it's. Getting close to recording time and I'm like okay I need to get this this sealed up and ready to go so we can. We can get rolling and um so Dave is on the outside Dave is my husband for people who don't know and he is on the outside of the building he is putting foam on the outside of the building to seal it up. And I'm like well we have a second can I'm going to go inside the building and start sea it from the other side. So I'm working on the sides I'm working on the bottom. No problem I get to the top and there's a big gap on there and so I'm spraying along I'm spraying along and then there's like this one part that has like a hole opening out to the outside. So i. Stick the nozzle over there and I spray and then I hear a scream so um, from Dave's point of view. He's over there doing his thing and he's upon a ladder trying to get this done because this is installed like in the wall. It's it's ah a a window ace unit that is installed into a wall not in a window. 02:05.91 Jala And so you know he's just up on a ladder trying to get the foam seal that he sees a little plastic nozzle stick out and then just shoots foam at him and luckily it was mostly air because um, like it has a lot of ah you know like a lot of propulsion to it. 02:22.90 Jala So it was mostly air just a little bit of foam which apparently landed on his chest as we found out right before we started recording and whoops I know without any context. It's like go. You've got foam on your chest What you want. 02:27.64 Zombi That was a interesting thing to hear as you joined in. 02:36.17 Adelaide Right is this is this a private conversation. 02:38.51 Zombi Um, like oh my what were y'all love too. 02:40.87 Jala Right? right? now. No, it was nothing so fun as all of that but we did get it all sealed up. It is nice and quiet and cool. So I am happy and it has a remote control too. Which means that if I'm recording and I I don't have to stumble over myself to go over there if I get too cold or something. 02:55.10 Adelaide That's fancy. 02:58.59 Zombi Well I'm glad y'all got that fixed up fortunately in time for Houston summer so that's great. 03:06.00 Jala Absolutely because it gets prohibitively hot and it's been just worse and worse every year so like the fact that now I have a better quieter Ac unit is going to be so helpful. But in either case, ah today. We will be talking about body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria but before we get into this topic I want to remind everybody about our coffee you can support this show by going to ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia and either dropping us a one-time donation or subscribing. Yes. Ko-fi has patron tiers just like Patreon and there's extra stuff for subscribers and any and all donations are given a shout out on the show and are greatly appreciated. You can also rate and review us on your podcasting platform of choice and it gives me warm fuzzies to see each and every one of them. Okay. 03:57.65 Jala So admin is now over. We can now get on with the show. So what is body dysmorphia body dysmorphic Disorder Bdd is an anxiety disorder best described as an obsessive compulsive disorder. Involving a belief that a certain body part or physical appearance is defective or wrong a key to understanding what having a distorted body image can feel like is realizing that there is a fundamental disconnect between reality and perception for those suffering from body dysmorphia and. This is something that I definitely um, not at first when I first started to feel extreme body dysmorphia but like later on when I was starting to heal from it. This was something that I came to realize where it's like no I can see myself. And I can look at myself I started becoming able to look at myself from somebody else's viewpoint like to see through somebody else's eyes a little bit better and having that kind of removal from the self and seeing myself as if I were someone else you know I could understand that actually what. 05:08.55 Jala I Think of myself how I am hypercritical of myself is not the reality to everybody else. Nobody else is seeing all of this stuff. You know that I'm I'm focusing on so hard for you know. 05:19.84 Zombi And absolutely we're We're all our worst critics and I think it's easy to forget that and feel like everyone feels these terrible things you're thinking about yourself as well. 05:31.60 Adelaide Yeah, and and 1 of the things that I also try and keep in mind and maybe this this makes you feel better or worse but like I try to think of is like nobody actually cares as much as you do like you know the ways that we're incredibly. Ah. We can talk about this later when we talk more about gender dysphoria but like the ways that we're incredibly hyper aware of the of how we look and what we do and and the things about ourselves that we're critical about almost guaranteed nobody else ceased. 06:01.38 Jala Yeah, yeah, and and that's the next kind of segue into like that you know the aspect most often the aspect or body part someone with body Dysmorphia fixates on isn't noticeable or recognized by anyone else and so. 06:02.29 Zombi Yes, yes. 06:19.72 Jala You know the common symptom of this particular mental state is when that person hones in on a particular perceived flaw like seeing a body part or themselves just generally as fat. For example, that's a really big one which we'll be um, hovering on more in a separate episode but we'll also touch on here. Um. Often to the point that that fixation interferes with daily life and the ability to function normally somebody with body dysmorphia might have debilitating obsessive and or uncontrollable thoughts and ah so like my my grappling with body Dysmorphia. Has primarily been related to um the fat Phobia. You know like the fat phobia aspect of it because when I was younger I was heavier set and so a lot of that and you know I have cellulite on my legs but most women do. 07:17.64 Jala Because that's just how fat forms on female bodies. So um, you know that's it until 73 this is an interesting fact that I learned until 1973 it was just considered just part of the female body 1973 is when someone coined. 07:19.55 Adelaide Awesome. 07:34.10 Jala Cellulite and started to use that in advertising and talking about it as a negative thing that they were trying to banish and get rid of and they have been selling quack cures ever since trying to tell you how you can rid yourself of cellulite. Well you can't That's just how your body stores the fat you can reduce the purit. Yeah yeah. 07:48.39 Zombi It drives nuts. 07:52.52 Adelaide That's interesting I didn't know that. 07:53.93 Jala You can? yeah you can reduce its appearance by lowering the amount of body fat you have. But then you can get into some health concerns. Actually if you get too low of a body fat trying to rid yourself with the cellulite and yes, toning your muscles does. 08:08.93 Jala You know burn more fat and then you know, ah again, kind of get rid of that and and things like that. But like you can't if you have cellulite you have cellulite. That's it, you know? so um so anyway but yeah like I did a lot of study into like Naomi wolf's. 08:26.26 Jala The beauty myth is a very good book. Um it it focuses on the role of just women and the the patriarchy and how advertising and stuff has really been trying to control women with this absurd standard of beauty that. Isn't something that most people can reach and is you know a um, heteronormative Cis white ah lady small white lady. You know, kind of situation that most people don't fit into um but you know like it of course. 09:05.40 Jala This topic extends to people of all different. You know, gender identities and everything as Well. So So that's that's a main way that I've grappled with body dysmorphia is just constantly. There was a point when I first started to drop weight where. I looked at myself in the mirror and I'm like I can't get get rid of this fat right here on the bottom of my abdomen I am fat still I still have this fat and I was just obsessed about it and then like I had loose skin from losing fat and I couldn't get rid of that and you know there's no way to get rid of that loose skin unless you have a surgery. 09:43.13 Jala To remove it. But then the moment that you gain weight back you're going to stretch your skin out again. So you know, ah you know it is a neverending cycle for sure. So ah, you know I had been in that boat but it never got to the point of me having something like an eating disorder or anything like that I did. 09:47.98 Zombi And it feels like a never ending cycle. Yeah. 10:01.82 Jala Exercise a lot. Um, but then again I found out that it's just I'm an intense person and I like to exercise I like to move and like I've been doing stuff like endurance events ultramarathons ever since then so you know that's just actually a disposition thing. Not so much tied to the dysmorphia. But at that time it felt. Definitely like it was um, part and parcel you know So How about for y'all. 10:24.68 Zombi Right? 10:31.75 Adelaide Um, for me a lot of and again we'll we'll get into this with the second section but a lot of my dysphoria ah dysmorphia is like tied to gender dysphoria but like even even before I started transitioning. Ah I've always been kind of a big person. Um and like. 10:49.50 Adelaide I remember being teased a little bit like in school growing up and like you know ha ha there're such a cheby kid like blah blah blah um and like. My my defense mechanism because I was I was never like a sports person. Not really like I like going for a walk or like you know doing active things. But I'm not I don't I don't think I'm really of a like athletic disposition. Ah, regardless of of what my weight is um. So by my way of dealing was with that was just I guess like the way that what I eventually came to is like I'm I'm just going to look like this um and like it wasn't even that like. I was happy with the way that I looked it was just well. This is what what I'm stuck with um and like you know I never really considered myself an attractive person. Never really like thought of myself as as good looking Intel I had like started having external. Validation from like other people and I think that for me really went a long way to sort of heal that mindset you know, even now I I struggle to think of myself as like physically attractive, um, just just because that's. 12:12.11 Adelaide You know, kind of the the wall that I built for myself. Um to protect myself and now I'm stuck here. Um, but yeah so I I think that's you know, ah one of the ways that that I coped with that at the time. 12:26.59 Jala Well and then too You also have the fact that society itself is always you know, enforcing this feeling of like no you aren't enough you are you know, not attractive enough. You're not this enough and everything because that's the way to keep. Everybody ah under control to where they're unhappy with themselves and they're focused on you know this unhappiness with themselves and trying to fix that and wasting all their energy on that that they don't focus on like bigger issues things like that. 13:01.67 Jala Like it actually has ah a whole political. Not just a capitalist but a political implication as well. 13:10.77 Zombi And that's just really angering Honestly I just feel myself getting mad right now not like in that mean wave of just ah society. Um, similarly adding on to the cellulite. Um. 13:27.61 Zombi I don't think that it's you know it is one that bothers me because and this is more dysmorphia too. But um with how I feel like I was why why is my body forming the way that it is it always has made me really uncomfortable. But like similarly on that vein are also like you've heard of hip Dis or Violin Hips or whatever they're calling them these days and how oh you've got a serious problem if you have that it's like have you seen a skeleton do you know how human hips are formed. Do you realize that there is a bone there and it's just it's blowing my mind that maybe it's a lack of education. 14:02.25 Zombi Maybe it's maybe not a lack of education like knowledge. But what is it that causes people to look at something and say hey that's wrong and then kind of put it in another person's head. Oh no I'm wrong. 14:14.30 Jala It's it's a lot again of just society selling it to you that way wholesale. You've got the media telling you this. You've got Instagram models and stuff you got social influencers nowadays who are all super airbrushed to hell and none of that shit's real. 14:30.52 Jala And you've got all of that you've got advertising. You've got the entire um beauty industry fashion industry. Um you name it fitness industry. You know that they're not you know any less to blame here for all of that. 14:49.25 Jala All just like saying this stuff and like these days there are so many people that will take a meme at face value and say that's the truth without ever looking any deeper than that because and part of that kind of leans into it's because we have such information overload these days that. 14:57.74 Zombi And that's sad. 14:59.30 Adelaide Yeah, yeah. 15:08.23 Jala There is so much information out there that people just assume this is fine and they don't go to the length of googling to find more info and reading several articles and doing this that and doing their own research because everything is handed to them all of this information. Be it accurate or inaccurate is handed to them and that's what they consider you know the people who they will go to Facebook they will see a post and then that's how they get their information. We all know those people you know. 15:34.93 Zombi Right? And then even if you do Google it. The first results you're going to see on Google are ads you Google what are effective ways to work on lose weight or work on this thing or that thing and then you're going to get ads and misinformation because that's what they put up first. That's how they make their money and. 15:50.37 Jala Yeah, and it's like it takes even more work to vet the sites that you are pulling information from to make sure that these are valid sites that actually don't have some capitalist or political interest in you know, feeding you misinformation in the first place. So. It's a whole big industrial complex which you know we've been um, talking about a little bit over time. Um, there will be more and more on that as we go through these topical episodes. But um, yeah so I wanted to talk a little bit about the symptoms of. Body dysmorphic disorder. So these different beliefs that manifest as extreme or intrusive thoughts will also cause other things like having a false view of oneself that affects multiple areas of life. Ah, you know again, this is the internal narrative where you're saying I'm a terrible person I'm you know fat I'm ugly I'm whatever you whatever you're telling yourself this negative and terrible um becoming obsessed with a perceived flaw or defect seeking. Repeated reassurance from others and that's one that definitely like I can I can fill that one I underline that one. Um you know I've been there. Yeah yeah. 17:07.86 Adelaide Awesome! yeah. 17:08.91 Zombi And I think a lot of us can feel that really hard. 17:14.83 Jala Ah, engaging in constant time consuming repetitive behaviors such as looking in the mirror trying to hide a flaw picking at the skin obsessively exercising and so on like I said um I don't know that it's necessarily the dysmorphia. Ah, for me and about the obsessive exercising I Just kind of turned into a personal trainer and an endurance athlete at a point but um, it It definitely had like some roots there. Let's let's just put it that way. Um, being extremely self- consciousc. Yes I I can say I'm I'm super hyper self-consciousness and like. 17:48.91 Jala I look at photos of myself or whatever and I'm just like focusing in on exactly what I think is wrong and why I don't like it but everybody else is like this is a beautiful picture and I'm like I hate it. You know that feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17:57.78 Adelaide Um, but but have you seen my face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18:00.74 Zombi Like are we looking at the same picture right now. 18:07.45 Jala So so yeah, and then also seeing Dermatologists plastic surgeons or other medical professionals to try and quote unquote fix. Whatever the problem is you know, um, having Bariatric surgery or whatever you're doing to try to to get to whatever this goal is that you've got for yourself. So. 18:24.83 Jala So yeah, those are all different symptoms of having dysmorphia. So do we have anything further to add about just it on itself before we move on to gender dysphoria. 18:35.47 Zombi And maybe as it continues on. 18:38.49 Jala Yeah, so gender Dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. The sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so Intense. It can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily. Life. Yes, yes and I feel like um, the sense of unease and dissatisfaction that you know that has is some intensity of in fact, like effect I I can't say for certain I'm just going to talk from at my ass here for a minute. 19:16.13 Jala Ah, for me like I've had that but like since my gender identity is a switch that goes back and forth between two things I feel frustrated when I'm in a masculine mode I don't feel frustrated when I'm in a feminine mode for the most part. Although sometimes I feel frustrated with um. 19:35.85 Jala Women who ah, don't don't are aren't well-rounded I suppose is is the best way to say that um, but like for someone who is trans for example, like at Edie for you like I think it would be. Much different for you than it would be for me because I have a switch I turn it off and then I'm not feeling dysphoria in the same way. 19:58.17 Adelaide Yeah, um, for me, it was actually really interesting because I you know came to my identity and like the understanding of that much much you know later in my life. But despite that I've always I think we talked a little bit about this in the femininity episode but I've always felt. Disconnected from the idea of like being a man. Um, and so like ah like I've all I I Guess in a way though I don't think I would have been able to tell you that or like even classify it as Dysphoria at the time. Um. 20:33.57 Adelaide Like I've definitely always I guess felt felt like a low level sort of ambient dysphoria. But um in a more tangible sense. It wasn't really until I started actually like presenting as a woman and like you know identifying that way and and. You know, wearing quote unquote women's clothes and and and all the the things. Um that like I really started to notice like how like unhappy I was with certain like you know aspects of the way my this is you know how it ties back into dysmorphia for me is like. Aspects of the way my body looks and are like incongruent with my gender identity. Um, and and yeah for me like like I guess I Still always have like a low level amount of it. But there are times when like it. It definitely like spikes for me. Um, So yeah. 21:31.61 Zombi So would you say that you were started to feel more of that euphoria as opposed to the through that disconnect the dysphoria. 21:40.27 Adelaide Yeah, Well so the interesting thing is like so before I don't think I'd ever felt euphoric about my appearance. Ah, and you know they're like I you know there were pictures where I looked nice or you know there were clothing that I liked but I don't think. I had ever like looked at myself in the mirror and been like hey like that's a good looking person. Um, so like interestingly enough with the like more prevalent Dysphoria also comes at least for me like more tangible. Euphoria feelings. 22:18.70 Zombi I Okay that that's really interesting I Um I struggle for that euphoric feeling and I have gotten it I have achieved it many times but I think more often than not because I am Gender fluid. It's less of a switch like Jawless more like. I will wake up day to day or yeah I won't even have to wake up I'll just look down and be like what the fuck are these boobs doing on my chest you know and it just it feels Icky. It feels Wrong. It feels like it's not supposed to be there and I. 22:47.33 Zombi It's not just that It's like why do I not have a penis. Why am I this or that why are my Hips. You know why are people calling me ah someone with childbirthing hips. Everything feels incorrect at times and sometimes they'll All'll feel great Sometimes everything matches up correctly. But then I just have this dreadful like. Absolute dreadful, heavy feeling where it's like I am not correct as a person and. 23:12.60 Jala And you know, um, it's kind of interesting I thought about it last night and I had this long discussion with Dave right before going to sleep I was thinking about it and I realized that the reason why I have. This very very strong competitiveness when it comes to like Dave when Dave is lifting I don't want Dave to outlift me. He's about the same size as me like pound for pound. He's about the same weight. He's a little bit taller. But that's it you know about the same age all of that so I don't want him to outlift me. Because ah when it comes to what I'm physically capable of doing there are ceilings right on on like your capacity to have like a certain performance output like when it comes to lifting. He will lift heavier on bench than I can lift There will be a point where he will be doing that and there's not much I can do about it because when it comes to the hormones behind it I have more estrogen he has more more testosterone he's going to be able to lift more than I'm going to be able to lift unless I take testosterone which I don't want to do because more or less overall I feel. Pretty decent most of the time in the body that I have I get frustrated and that makes me angry sometimes um I'm not angry at people I'm angry at the situation that you know Dave can lift more. He can roll up on the gym and not be lifting and I'm working my ass off every day. 24:44.70 Jala And he will go up in there and he will lift more than me one day and I will be mad and I will try Try. Try hard hard hard but my ceiling of where my performance is without incredible effort and incredible extra extra curricular stuff is lower than his when it comes to my power output because. That's just how the hormones are in those situations and that frustrates me so much because I work so hard and the same thing actually applies to like in my discord for my podcast we are in the wellness Channel doing a lord of the rings miles challenge where you're going through the map. 25:23.41 Jala Ah, going to mordor right? It's cool. Well ah, some of the folks in there like there's some folks that are they're doing it with me. Um, there's a total of 3 other people. They are all guys and one of them decided to challenge me and said that he was going to. 25:41.99 Jala Out effort me and I like I I wasn't like mad at him for doing that but internally that set me off into the I'm going to win or I'm going to die because if it was in the thing is if it was gender fluid people. 26:01.70 Jala If it were women. It wouldn't I wouldn't feel that way. It's because it's guys and I don't I don't at the end of the day have the same capacity. You know there's a limit that is lower than their limit because of their hormones that makes me so mad. So. 26:20.48 Jala Yeah, so right at this particular moment I have a hundred mile freaking lead on him and I am beating all 3 of the other people who are in there and I'm not going to do that ever like for the whole whole event right? It's just that like the only thing I have is my effort. 26:38.82 Jala That's all I've got in this particular situation if you line me up with somebody else who is a guy that you know like I don't I don't want to be I think it is I just I don't want to be the person who oh you lift more than all the other girls in the gym I want to live more than everybody in the gym I don't care what your gender is and that's what mad That's what makes me mad and so like. 26:51.33 Adelaide Right. 26:53.13 Zombi Yeah. 26:58.61 Jala There is a competitive streak in me somewhere. But it's very specifically fueled by the anger that I have that I'm I'm stymied by like you know the limitations of the hormones that are in my body. But again since I'm not trans. 27:14.76 Jala I Don't want to take T I don't want to do like all that you know I don't want to do performance enhancing drugs Any of that stuff I don't want to do all that so you know that being said, you know like yes there is an avenue for me to do that. But I don't want all of the extra stuff that comes along with that Avenue you know. I Just get frustrated with the situation I understand that that is just how it is so there isn't really a way for me to um, ever come to real terms with that Dysphoria because it it is what it is that this is my situation. You know it's kind of like a Zombi when you're talking about. You know why don't I have a penis. Well you know again, there's such a long long path and so much you know money and time and effort pain that goes into trying to go down the route of taking the hormones and getting your gender affirming surgeries and all of that stuff and in the end. 28:09.72 Jala You probably won't be happy anyway when you get there, you will be like this isn't enough I want something you know I want something else that I don't even you know it's it's it's hard. It's It's a real difficult. Yeah. 28:19.96 Zombi It's a huge struggle It really is and then um, like everything you're saying brings up 2 things to mind the first one being I feel what you were saying so hard like you don't want to be the strongest woman right? there you want to be the strongest person. But whenever people say the strongest like this is the most. Strong person in the world. They're always talking about a man or like not always, but they're talking about a man and then they always have to identify Oh well, this is the strongest woman This is woman who can do the most this or that it's like why is there have to be a distinction here. Why can't you just say this is the person and does it not matter if it's a man or a woman. 28:51.20 Jala Yeah. 28:55.75 Zombi Or you know neither? um. 28:56.22 Jala Well and then too like you know I understand because a common counter argument when I say all of this is well everybody has their different strengths and you know you've got different strengths than I've got and so like you've got different ways that you're you're better than a man At. Ok, but that's not that's not the point. That's point you know like that is not what I'm talking about this is not yeah apples to apples that we're talking about here. You know you you are over there talking about oranges. That's not what I'm talking about you know like. 29:17.52 Zombi Right? exactly. 29:32.35 Zombi And yes in that they they don't understand that it's like okay well, you're not better this way but you can be better that way. It's like that's not the point we're talking about this way right? Ah, it's It's so frustrating and then um. 29:39.56 Jala Um, and the consolation prize at the consolation prize what that is yeah. 29:49.38 Zombi The other thing is I would likely never ever get any kind of gender affirming anything because I've sat and thought about this a lot. Especially right before we decide to do this episode? Um I don't like the thought of my body or anything about me changing in a way that I could not specifically control. 30:08.33 Zombi I Couldn research it. You know as much as I want and there would still be things I couldn't see expecting or anything I don't like my body doing anything without my permission like getting sick makes me angry anything at all that I cannot control just ticks me off so Badly. So I I try to keep it within what I can control like can I. Differently or exercise to attempt to you know, get to a point where I'm happy with my body Absolutely and I'm actively doing that right now. But if I'm going to be taking something if I'm going to be getting any kind of gender affirming surgery I Just feel like I wouldn't be comfortable because it's not within my own personal control. 30:44.61 Jala And see like ah we talked about it a little bit on the sexuality episode I believe it was um about control because remember I brought it up there and so like for me like that control part. Is is also part of it like I don't want to take per her performance enhancing drugs I don't want to take tea because like I can't just pick and choose what happens to me, you know? ah you get the whole shabang If you if you go down that route you know and that's that's you know, unfortunately not something that is. 31:04.31 Zombi So right exactly. 31:06.67 Adelaide Um, right? yeah. 31:15.51 Jala Enticing to me even in the least. So but um, yeah, but control I feel like that is also kind of unfortunately an aspect of being assigned female at Birth because so many things are out of assigned female at Birth people's control so much of the time and ah. 31:34.96 Jala Yeah s sign female of birth people are more often victims of abuse and things which lead to having a lot of you know, centered control issues around. You know that that kind of topic. So. It's like yeah you know having mastery over your own body and having capacity to. Make the decisions for your body in a way that you can quantify is really Important. You know, especially I think like I and I know it's ah applicable to assign male of birth individuals as well. But I think it's extra underlined just because of all the social stigmas that are surrounding. 32:11.66 Jala Assign female at Birth individuals. So. 32:13.75 Zombi Right? Because of the ways that we lose control basically from the moment we're born and decisions that are already pre mediated about our bodies and what we can do with them and our physical limitations and what we're expected to do in life. Ah, it's exhausting. 32:28.77 Jala Yeah, yeah, So so it's interesting because like ah the Dysphoria like I said the Dysphoria Gender Dysphoria for me is mostly tied up in just like ah performance training performance stuff because I am passionate about that topic and that is. Unlike something like podcasting or you know other other types of activities that they are gender neutral. They can whatever it doesn't matter what gender you are. You know you can be successful or not and it doesn't really actually matter too Much. You know what? what your gender identity is like when it comes to something like training. It's constantly. 33:06.53 Jala There You know it's constantly there you see all the fastest times on some of the you know super hardcore running events. It's always guys. It's not women is guys now can women Outlast men. Yes, they can outlast men you know, endurance races and stuff women tend to perform better out whole. But. At the same time.. It's like it just it just makes me mad. Um, So so yeah, like I have most of my dysphoria is just angry I'm I'm frustrated and that's all I got to say about that. But like I don't know like. 33:29.78 Zombi Absolutely. 33:43.70 Jala How about like I know Zombi that you've already said yes you you have a lot of frustration and anger stuff going with that like Addie I don't think that you react that way. 33:52.96 Adelaide No, um, so interestingly so a lot of my stuff is turned internally. So like if I so I don't know I have I feelings about like the way my body is shaped or like the way my face looks um. And I think a big part of that is like I I am you know taking estrogen um I'm doinghrt and like I just don't I can't see the changes as much because like I look at myself every day like you know I can look at old pictures of me and be like oh that that person. Ah, is very different than the person I am now but like on a day to day basis I don't see them as much. Um, so like if I look at my face for too fog in the beers sometimes I like get really twisted up in my brain. Um. Also like the way that my body distributes ah fat. Um on itself is still very masculine. Um, for the most part which is frustrating to me. Ah, the it's funny like I I don't you know I don't have a lot of. I don't have any sort of dysphoria around the fact that I have penis but like and even like my breasts don't really bother me except for that like I just they look small on me and and like I feel like if they looked a little bit more proportional to the way the rest of my body is which is to say. 35:23.59 Adelaide You know a little bit more line with how I would look if I was born a woman or if I was Cis Um, typically I know that you know bodies come in all sorts of different configurations. Regardless of you know gender identity but like ah then you know On. On a daily basis I would feel a little bit happier about myself. Ah, but yeah, like I I've never gotten to the point of self-harm. Luckily um I I don't have any of the like obsessive tendencies. But what I do have is like. I will not leave the house if I'm not dressed up I have to look like I am a well put together person and what that includes is like I shave every day I I will not leave the house if I have not Shaved. Um. Even if it's like I got to take something out to the garbage can like I won't do it because the the minor chance that somebody sees me like with facial hair. Even if it's just stubble and I have like some of the lightest facial hair in the world. Um, like. Even if it's just stubble like really freaks me out. Um, and I think for me instead of like it being Anger. It's more of like I don't I I know who I am um and like generally I'm pretty happy with who I am but like. 36:52.22 Adelaide Every time I'm confronted with another person who misgens me or ah you know misidentieses me any any of that stuff is very very crushing and it's funny that um jall ah you identified that kind of stuff. Ah that feeling of like. Having to work so much harder with weightlifting because in a lot of ways I feel like I have to do that with presentation. You know, um in the beginning. Um I and I can identify this as the toxic thought process so nobody called me out. But. I used to get really frustrated by just seeing like Cis women just existing um which I I know that's stupid and silly but like I had to learn so much and work so hard and like teach myself how to do makeup and like how to dress myself. Um that like. You know? Ah I just ended up putting so much effort into it and people were just out out and about existing and I felt that frustrated. 37:57.36 Jala Right? right? So like something I want to insert there is that like for me I would get frustrated when I saw dudes taking their dudeness for it. Ah you know for? granted, right? like they're They're not Using. What they have available to them to the greatest potential and that would frustrate me. Um I will say that as a person like I am incredibly driven to try to better myself all the time and so like I have a tendency of falling in love with people's potential. 38:17.42 Adelaide Perfect. 38:31.66 Jala Because I can see in them how they can grow and change but like you can't um, actually make that happen that person has to do the growing themselves and they have to take those steps and you know step up to do those things in order to actually fulfill that potential So like I had this like. 38:50.14 Jala Previous This is not a current issue but like previously I would fall in love with people because of their potential they failed to live up to their potential or do much of anything and then like you know like that situation just was frustrating for everyone Involved. Um. You know, among various other complications and and issues so like anyway with that kind of a mindset though being like a super type a I want everybody to grow kind of thing and then like trying so hard. 39:22.86 Jala And then seeing other guys just roll up and like not put very put like the barest amount of effort in and then get results better than mine is very maddening and it was very very maddening to me and it's it's a little bit less so now especially now that like I've identified what's going on. Um, it's easier to then take steps to offset that and like you know I'm not mad at individual people. Um, you know like I used to be I used to be but like Nos I'm not mad at people for you know, doing whatever it is. They're doing but. 39:59.80 Jala I am still frustrated with the situation and it just makes me what what ends up happening these days is that I take that frustration and I take that anger and I use that to hit new Prs and to better myself even more and that turns into fuel for me like everybody has their thing that works for them to give them. 40:13.53 Adelaide Yeah. 40:18.55 Jala The power and the focus that they need to take the next step and go beyond you know and for me, it's a lot of that frustration and anger I'm an angry person sometimes so. 40:26.55 Adelaide Yeah, and I and I wanted to say like I and I'm not you know trying to make this a thing where I call out his people. Um for just being themselves but like I've definitely encountered like I've had a couple of um. A fab friends that are Cis women. However, you want to identify them. Um, that you know say things like oh like you know you don't have to wear wear so much makeup or like you know oh you can just like go outside and not care about it and like. 41:04.29 Jala Yeah. 41:04.57 Adelaide But I can't is the thing like and and that that there is a like lack of recognition of how hard like I I how much effort I put into like the way I look on a daily basis or like if I am going outside. Um and and like. Sometimes you can have the conversation that's like well like I understand like the thing that they're trying to do is is the the helpful thing which is to just treat me like a woman which is nice that's affirming I love that but like also. The part that comes along with that is there's not a recognition of the fact that I'm also trans which means that like they are they are affirming in 1 way but like also skipping the part where like they recognize how much effort I put into myself which. 41:57.45 Jala Right? Yeah, it's a micro aggression. You know it's It's those times where somebody is kind of seeing what's going on and trying to be nice, but then it ends up backhanding you. So. 41:59.45 Adelaide Can be pretty frustrating. 42:10.69 Adelaide Yeah. 42:13.87 Zombi Yeah, ah, that's probably 1 of my bigger pet peeves I don't think I'm a super angry person even though I do get angry but 1 thing is someone telling you not to care about something that you care about because you have your freaking reasons for caring about it. 42:29.16 Zombi Like did I ask you like No no if I want to go outside and I want people to you know, see me the way that I see myself. You shouldn't say oh well? No no one worries that you're fat. You're still cute if you're fat. You're this and fat. It's like okay I care. It's something that matters to me. It's something within myself. Why are you trying to and like like like Adelaide said they're they're trying to help in their way and I'm not trying to say like oh it's horrible that you're trying to help but there are better ways and I think that we can all you know, learn that there are better ways to say these things. 43:00.42 Adelaide Awesome. 43:00.59 Jala Right? And a lot of it is just really seeing and I say this a lot seeing the other person right? seeing them fully really looking at them really considering where they're coming from not just shooting from the hip and just. 43:15.12 Jala Popping off with whatever you think sounds best in the moment without actually considering who you're talking to or what the situation is like think a little bit more before you actually open your mouth. So. 43:25.30 Zombi I I think we can all learn to do that I still struggle. But you know I'm trying my best I think a lot of us are really trying our best and trying to be self-aware in that way. 43:34.30 Jala Oh yeah, definitely like that's ah, that's a human condition foot and mouth Disease is a human condition. We all have that. Um, but like you know you can reduce the number of times that you stick your foot in your mouth and end up on the other side having. 43:53.50 Jala Done A microaggression is somebody. You know what? I mean so like working towards that end is really what you know we're advocating for here like just just be more ah but cognizant of the full picture. You know so. 43:54.84 Adelaide Nothing. 44:06.73 Zombi I exactly and um I was also thinking as Adelaide was saying that regarding the our fat cells for example, going back to that because it is a huge frustration for me. Why are my fat cells luggy. Why do I not have crisscross applesau fat cells I am bothered by that. 44:25.64 Zombi Like just give give us the same stuff so that I can stop being annoyed I Know not everyone wants that but I just let let me shapeshift I don't know it bugs me. 44:33.78 Jala Ah, yeah, yeah, it's like you know I want the Rama one half to send killed cur curse. So I can go back and forth between me if you Mill whatever I want oh wait. No and whenever it rains I'm screwed anyway. So. 44:50.20 Jala Yeah, but that that would be great because like you know as I think it's It's a different kind of feeling um like okay, everyone who has gender Dysphoria just like with dy Morphia That's like yes I I feel like that's something that you can heal and get. Past I don't know if it is something that really goes away 100% ever. Um, you know like I'm I'm aware that there are still things that can trigger dysmorphia for me and so I just have to like work around that and make other people aware of the fact that I have this history. 45:26.84 Jala And you know make sure that they're watching me as well. So you know like but like with something like gender Dysphoria If you were a gender fluid person or someone like me who has like a switch you know and you go between things. There isn't really like a way to ever. Get past that that I know of because you're always going to have that because you're always switching back and forth between the two things or you're youre fluid and you're you're you know flowing between things so you know like that's just kind of part and parcel of the identity almost. 46:00.96 Zombi Yeah, go ahead? Oh we have that symptom nerve like walking you know past each other and then we both turn right? and we both turn left Oh my goodness. Sorry go on. 46:01.20 Adelaide Yeah, and sorry, go ahead. But I was just going to say. 46:17.10 Adelaide Um I was just going to say like in a lot of ways. Um I'm I'm very much ah in awe of of people that fall a lot closer to the middle of presentation because like for me like. Sure there are things that I like and there are things I don't like about myself and like I have avenues to fix that because ultimately like I there. There's never going to be a time I don't think where I will ever want facial hair so I can just get rid of It. You know I can do electrolysis or like. You know if I get to the point where like I've been on hormones enough that you don't really see as much you get diminishing returns after a certain period. Um, so like if my body isn't the way that I want it to be or I'm not happy with the way it looks like I have avenues to change that. Permanently and that's okay with me but like for you guys like there. You don't really have that as much you have to like work a lot harder at it. 47:18.10 Jala Yeah, and it's just kind of again I I feel like it's just kind of part of the identity. It just comes with with the package you know so I be like. 47:29.34 Zombi And that's why we should all be able to shapeshift it would solve so many issues. 47:34.72 Jala Well and and there are different people of of different gender identities that will take different gender affirming steps or you know steps towards Androgeny or whatever their their particular goal is you know and that's like. Their decisions but like again like it's just for for both me and Zombi I think it's It's the case that we don't really want to make those kinds of of big changes and so it's just kind of part of the the package for us. But. 48:04.45 Jala But like the dysmorphia I've been working a lot on more recently, especially with all of the extra studies and stuff I've been doing for the upcoming fat phobia episode and so um, you know like I've been working a lot actively even though it had it doesn't. Trigger so much for me anymore like my my dysmorphia these days is actually more centered around whether or not I'm strong enough to do the things that I want to do because I want to do um you know all all of these different types of physical activities and I also want to be able to be strong enough to. 48:37.65 Jala Deadlift my parents when they need it because they're they they need me to do that I need to be capable to do that and um so a lot of it is more. It's is less on appearance and more about performance. Ah these days and that's kind of where I'm at and that to me feels like um. 48:55.96 Jala Although it does have its own challenges. It's ah it's a little bit healthier in a way because it's ah it's not bought into the Beauty. You know the beauty myth The um overarching capitalist. Crunch or any of that stuff. It's getting away from that and getting away from the criticism of self like when I look in the mirror I'm not like mad about what I'm seeing in the mirror or anything you know like I'm I'm just working towards goals and continually trying to um you know, step it up. 49:31.31 Jala But but um, yeah, and so like that that's been a good shift for me and you know I know I said earlier like I get angry sometimes or maybe I sounded like I'm angry all the time I'm not actually I don't walk all the time angry like I most of the time I sound like I do now. Um, or I sound very tired I'm one or the other. Um. 49:32.65 Zombi That's pretty cool. 49:50.89 Jala I don't I don't walk around angry all the time but I do get angry and I turn that anger into a productive thing that helps me towards those performance goals I mentioned so like I've I found a way to actually use it to my own advantage and to further my growth and. 50:09.16 Jala I'm still trying to sort out how to to work on that Dysphoria element because again I think that's just something I just have to deal with so if anybody has any suggestions, please bring up my way I will I will be happy to discuss them. But um, so. 50:18.50 Adelaide So philosophical. 50:24.61 Zombi Ah, yeah, all of that got me even more thinking. Um, it's really I get a lot of issues being gender fluid because I am not you know a laud like about lot the people. 50:26.10 Jala Oh you had something to say Zombi. 50:40.93 Zombi Some of you that have seen me know that I do not look like an androggenous person. You'll look at me and because of heteronor bitive standards I look like a woman a very busty curvy woman and I actually get a lot of people being openly aggressive toward me not for the reason you'd think. But because I don't look androgenous. It's like well you can't be gender fluid because you look like 1 thing and you don't look like you're trying to look like anything but the thing we think you are and it's really painful because it's like okay but I know I am what I say I am I know I feel the way I say I am. 51:16.37 Zombi And but I'm getting all of that from other people just because I don't look and draw to this enough for them because apparently you can only look at a certain way. 51:21.35 Jala Yeah, and I oh yes, Eddie. 51:23.57 Adelaide Um, yeah, oh I was just going to say it's an it's it's interesting that you mentioned that because ah I think you know early on when I was figuring out my identity I I have ways that like I feel. A lot of my dysphoria is very social based um and it's not a lot of like stuff I actually want to change about myself. There's very very few things actually like just the things we've talked about um and so like when I was starting out like looking at other gender identities and stuff. Um. I I you know I was like oh well I must be nonbinary because like you know I I like looking feminine but there are other ways about you know my body or things about my body that don't bother me but like it's not full on girl so it must not be girl and I think you know. Really early on a really ah like big moment for me was like I was talking to another a couple of other ah trans women that I knew actually from the ducks feed slack and and one of them said you know like if it's okay to just be a girl. Ah, you, you don't actually there's no checklist. You don't have to like do all the things if if that feels right to you then that's what you are, but unfortunately I know that it it can be common with Cis people and unfortunately also in queer communities that like. 52:56.76 Adelaide Gatekeeping Gender is is such a weird like thing that happens and it always makes me super duper sad when I see it because like the idea of like queerness um or the idea of transness or any sort of like alternative like nonconforming gender identity is. Inclusion not keeping people out of it. 53:18.62 Jala Yeah, and when so I've talked about it before but when I was a teenager that was when I had like a very very long stint of feeling super uncomfortable about myself and I wore guys' clothes for like. Number of years and you know just felt really uncomfortable in my own body and you know was was trying to sort myself out and sort out like what I thought about my own gender identity and like who I was and during that time it did frustrate me because like I don't have I don't. I have like a handful of guys' clothes now. But it's just like gym shorts or something that it doesn't matter what gender you are you just wear the gym shorts but like um, back then I had like a whole like my whole wardrobe was guy's clothes and it frustrated me because. 54:12.62 Jala Due to the shape of my face and this that and the other thing like I still looked feminine to a lot of people and I was absolutely like gatekeeped out of you know, having a male presentation and then like after a While. Just gave up on that and stopped and like I did these days I don't really go in for like a male physical presentation. It's um, all attitude. It's all my disposition. How I am acting how I am talking and walking and doing the things that I'm doing and. 54:48.20 Jala Actually the more that I thought about it when I was talking to Dave last night about everything I realized you know when it comes to the endurance events I was doing the rocking events and things like that. Um I've talked about it before I felt like an alien when it came even to the women that were doing the rocking events because. How I acted was not the way that those women acted they maintained being a woman on those events and I didn't you know I turned into something else and when I was on these events. You know there were so many people that thought that I had been in the military that I was either an active military person or that. 55:25.77 Jala I was a veteran because I was so no nonsense and so hardcore didn't complain was doing like you know super super soldier stuff right? You know and that's just my disposition when I'm doing anything hard like that. 55:43.27 Jala And that's also the disposition that I get into when I'm in a more masculine mode and I would be standing there Side-to- side-by-side with all these guys you know, holding up my end of everything holding up more than my share of things doing more work than some of those guys and some of those guys failing and me still being there. You know 18 hours in or whatever. And like that was very affirming to me for you know that that masculine side of me because I didn't have to put on like a show physically like dress a certain way or whatever to have that experience of feeling that way and it was very gender affirming for that. Aspect of myself. But at the same time while I was doing those rucking events I started really missing dancing and I had to start doing dance again because I missed having a feminine expression so you know. 56:32.00 Zombi And Balance is so important. 56:36.20 Jala Having that balance and so like you know, then it was like people could not understand when I was you know one way on these rocking events and then I would be like doing poll or something like that and they're just like I don't even understand how you can you know do all of this and then also say that you know this is your identity. It's like. No I know what I am and just because I'm on a sexy pole and I'm doing you know stuff dancing in Nine Inch heels okay in a bikini or whatever I'm doing that's super sexy and super feminine that doesn't mean that I am not more than what you are seeing at this moment like. 57:13.30 Jala Assumption that people are not anything more than what you see at first glance is so much BS. 57:18.30 Zombi Yeah, and I kind of I kind of envy the people that don't understand in a way because they feel comfortable like you said maintaining being a woman or maintaining being a man and they probably don't have to deal with things that with the like I'm not saying they don't have more to them I'm not saying they're not multifested. But they don't have these like harsh differences. Um, where you may present in a more feminine way on one day or even in the same day and then go to a no nonsense like super soldier masculine mode on that same day and I just envvi people that don't go through that. 57:52.38 Jala Yeah, because like people people honestly get pretty shellshocked when they actually see me switch into that mode. They don't know what to do? They don't know how to handle it. You know they have no idea and like I I have to actually. 58:09.45 Jala Um, because I I will slip into that mode whenever there is a crisis whenever there is you know something serious going on if I have a lot to do and I'm very busy I slip into that mode like it's my go mode right? and my go mode is so so um, different from the rest of the time that. 58:28.66 Jala People Just they are scared flat out scared like I am told that I have a scary face I have told that I have a scary voice like I terrify people when I'm in that mode. So you know, but um, yeah, so we didn't ever talk about like what these symptoms of Gender dysphoria. 58:46.64 Jala So I want to actually loop back to that real quick. So ah, there is a strong desire to lose physical identifiers of 1 ne's biological sex such as not wanting or wanting facial hair or breasts. So we've already kind of touched on that already. 59:02.00 Jala Ah,, there's also sadness or inability to feel satisfied with basic life activities and low self-esteem an intense desire to remove or add primary sex characteristics an innate want to be treated as a sex other than what one was born with a conviction that one has the reactions. Or feelings that another gender would typically display and summed up those with gender Dysphoria often describe a feeling of being stuck or being born in the wrong body and over time these feelings can manifest into depression Unhappiness distress anxiety sadness or even. 59:43.73 Jala So. Ah yeah I think that a lot of those we've we've already touched on those. We've kind of had some of that um those sensations and we've we've discussed like the sadness or being unsatisfied with things. Because of this having like ah, a low self-esteem also comes along with that kind of thing like ah for me when I was in super masculine mode as a teenager I obviously didn't fit in as I mentioned because I I'd been gate keeped out of being hanging out with the dudes and everything. But at the same time I also didn't fit out fit in with any of the females so that left me in a weird place because everything was so binary back when I was a teenager. So. 01:00:31.29 Zombi I not belonging anywhere. It sucks I didn't understand what it was which I kind of talked about back on the masculinity episode but there were many times where I'd be like yeah call me a guy call me cert and stuff like that and 1 time. Um my friends and I were walking just goofing off in middle school and them like. Ah, someone mamed me himm like that's sir to you and some dudes behind me just yelled out. Oh that's disgusting and I think that's one of the things that kind of just made me really close myself off again I'm like I feel bad like I'm disgusting for seeing a thing and just oh people need to be nice. 01:01:06.92 Jala What's what's funny is that I did the same thing like I didn't like the way that ma'am sounded I didn't want to be Mamed and ever and so I was like no just call me sir god like what I did the same thing and it's just because like I i. 01:01:15.71 Zombi Right? yeah. 01:01:23.11 Jala It sounded atrocious to me I didn't like Ma'am I don't like being mammed. 01:01:27.85 Zombi Yeah, and some things sound weird and like you know, um, both you and I are from the south. So we're probably used to sirring or mamming people I definitely um and obviously if someone says do not call me this or anything I will respect that right away. But right off the bat. It's hard not to say Sarah ma'am just because that's how I grew up. 01:01:41.73 Jala Yeah, yeah, like I I find it it bothers me less these days but like there was a long long stretch of time where I just did not want to be called and it also like you know whenever they talk about. Ah, in media stuff where they're like oh it's the President. It's the lady president like whenever there's a female President. It's like no, but yeah. 01:02:01.50 Zombi Well it see but that's same thing back there with the qualifier like you can't be the best. You can't be the best person you have to be the best woman in your field like no you you can be the best looking birth. You can be just the president. You can be just the best. Why do? why? do you have to add that qualifier. 01:02:16.75 Jala Yeah, yeah, Addie did you have something to add about that. 01:02:22.80 Adelaide Ah, no, um I it's funny though I be like you know again because of my the way that my experience went like um I didn't really have any of that sort of like disconnect with ah like formal pronouns or anything. Um. I do ah remember a period of time when um, there thinking that I wanted to go by the name Ashley because I felt like it. It was a good name and gender fluid I i. I didn't have any awareness of the idea of gender fluid but I liked it better than my name I've never actually liked my birth name which may or may not be connected to other things. But ah so like that's maybe like a little negative that but I I don't think I really experienced it as much as y'all did because. You had a better sense of like identity than I did growing up. 01:03:21.28 Jala I Don't know did we like have at least for me like we're all just real like ah. 01:03:21.33 Zombi Yeah I know but. 01:03:22.33 Adelaide I mean I feel like you're you were at least more more in tune with something being wrong or or like the ways that you didn't like it whereas's like I I Just like didn't identify with masculinity at all didn't. 01:03:42.16 Adelaide Like I didn't like sports I didn't like very very typically masculine men I had mostly friends that were girls like but I I didn't like at at the time I thought oh well I I'm just not a very like stereotypically masculine person and so ah. But like there was no awareness of oh I don't actually want to be a boy you know. 01:04:05.10 Jala Yeah, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about some of the differences and commonalities between Dysphoria and dysmorphia. So. Gender dysphoria and dysmorphia are 2 different things but it's very very possible to experience both of those disorders as we've talked about I think that's a common thing you know for both of them to be at the same time. So. 01:04:36.55 Jala Yeah, someone who has gender Dysphoria may also be preoccupied with breast size. For example, um, gender identity is often linked to self or body image and can often lead to mental disorders like obsessive compulsive disorder depression and anxiety. Um. 01:04:55.43 Jala So yeah, like if you sit with something and it's it's eating at you long enough it causes more problems surprising nobody like but some yeah so unlike Gender Dysphoria Body Dysmorphia does not respond to the changes we make to our bodies. So. 01:05:15.15 Jala Individuals with body dysmorphia and eating disorders like Anorexia don't actually feel better about their bodies when they use eating disorder behaviors Even if their body is physically transformed healing. Body Dysmorphia is more than a physical process. It involves deep in long-term therapy where one. Is encouraged to challenge their own thoughts whereas genderffirming actions like hormone replacement therapy or wearing different clothing. For example, have been shown to improve the gender dysphoria. And this is something that when I I was you know looking for articles and finding stuff I sat there with this for a while and I just kind of stared at it is like Wow you know this is so true like you know when I Shrank and I I lost a lot of weight and I still had that little bit of. 01:06:05.16 Jala Skin but there wasn't very much fat left on my body I was like 119 pounds and for me like my my body that is very small because I I tend to carry a lot of muscle on my body. So um, that was very very small for me and I was still like oh I'm too big I'm too big. 01:06:24.98 Jala I wanted to be smaller I was like can I go for 1 fifteen like no like it was bad. It was it was like that and yeah when I got that small I just needed to be smaller I still didn't feel happy with where I was at right and it took me. Um. 01:06:41.50 Jala You know, stepping back from all of that and recognizing there was a problem with yeah the obsessiveness about the numbers and tracking and this that and the other to fix that situation and you know start to heal myself from that. But again like this article was saying it really does take more than just a physical process to heal this. You have to have like a whole reframing of your mindset to get to the point where you can you know grapple with these things in healthy fashion and the problem I feel is that there are so many people out there who have some form of body dysmorphia. 01:07:19.55 Jala And they don't have any treatment whatsoever for it. They never you know they never get treatment with it. They're always just down on themselves and negative about themselves and how they look and there's there's not adequate care or attention paid to this in our society. It's just like yeah yeah and it's just. 01:07:32.47 Zombi Or validation either. 01:07:34.90 Adelaide Yeah. 01:07:39.14 Jala And it people just accept it like oh basically everybody hates themselves. You know like that's that's ah, a common thought there are a lot of people that think that there are a lot of people who think that basically everybody hates themselves and if they don't then they're just you know living a delusion or lying to themselves about it I have hurt. 01:07:43.99 Adelaide Right? right. 01:07:58.62 Jala So many people tell me this so you know and that's because those people who are saying that are projecting. They have that problem and then they say oh well everybody else also has this problem. 01:08:09.22 Zombi I Would like to give them all hugs. Sorry. 01:08:11.00 Adelaide Well or it's been so it's been so normalized to them to the fact to the point that like it doesn't even it doesn't even register as an issue. Um I think one of the other things that is like really. 01:08:28.49 Adelaide Important to talk about when we talk about dysphoria is a lot of times. Ah Dysphoria and and and just I'm sorry I'm surprised yes I'm surprised I've I've kept them straight so far a lot of times when we talk about. 01:08:38.28 Jala Um, Dysmorphia um. 01:08:44.96 Adelaide Dysmorphia We do talk about it specifically in a Trans or a queer context but like actually body dysmorphia is way more common than like just in queer people like because of the society that we live in. 01:09:02.87 Adelaide And you know the the capitalist pressures and the societal pressures for you know ideal sizes or looks of either Gender. It's super duper common but like I I don't think I ever heard the term like body dysmorphia until I started like. Looking into like you know, ah queer studies and stuff like that. 01:09:25.68 Jala Yeah, and that's a big problem like our society has as you say normalized it to such a degree that people think that this is just everybody thinks this everybody feels this way. Everybody hates themselves in some fashion and that's messed up man. That's that's. 01:09:45.80 Jala Ah, you know the thing is is that there is a way out of that you know, ah there is a way to reframe your brain. It takes work. It takes effort but you can you know reframe things in your brain and shift your thought patterns and that's that's something that like. I Always say this this is kind of like a personal mantra of mine that you know there are yes things that we cannot change but we have an incredible amount of personal power and we disable ourselves from having that power by telling ourselves. No by saying. We have this box and we're not going to go outside of this box and this is our limiters. You know we become our own self limiters and we don't allow ourselves to heal to grow to do the things that we want to do even and that's something that a lot of people just like. 01:10:40.33 Jala They just write it off and say no I can't I can't do that No in a lot of cases you can actually you know like that. Yes, there's certain limiters like okay, you know financially, everybody's got there. There's you know situations and there's all these other things but like when it comes to. 01:10:57.70 Jala Personal perception personal capacity to learn personal capacity to do like certain things. These things are things that you have the power to change within yourself. You can shift your mindset you can shift a lot of other things. Granted. You know, a lot of people have anxiety depression things like that. But you want to know a lot of the sources are like these things that are wrong with us that we're not addressing. We're not trying to um, fix them so we have this Dis you know like this dysmorphia this dysphoria all these things. And it's saying these things lead to all of these mental health issues you know and it's it's not like that's the the wellspring from which everyone's mental health issues are but everything's a contributing factor so you know the more of these you can shift and you know take into consideration and tackle. 1 after the next the better off, you're going to be overall that you're raising the level of the water for yourself. You know and like it like think this is saying too like you can minimize your your gender dysphoria by having different clothing or hormone replacement therapy. 01:12:07.19 Jala Or whatever but like you know there's there's more to it than that to try to like come to peace with things you know, um, there's like a personal part of that that has to be worked on as well and to at a certain degree again is some of it is just not something that can be reconciled for people who are fluid or whatever. 01:12:25.70 Jala And you know like there are ways to at least minimize how much it negatively affects your life and it's it's all about trying to work through that and everybody's got their baggage. You know like I'm not trying to point fingers at literally anybody but you know like. 01:12:40.28 Adelaide So so something. 01:12:44.65 Jala There are ways you know that you are empowered a lot more than you know like I think I'm speaking mostly to the people who think everybody you know hates themselves and those types of of things like they they have that super pessimistic view. Um, you know that's disempowering to them and that's disempowering to everyone else and. 01:13:04.21 Jala It's damaging when you say something like that because you're telling this you're projecting it out into the world and you're taking the damage that you're doing to yourself and you're projecting it out there towards everyone else and then you're putting that little kernel of doubt in their minds and you're you're affirming their negatives down moment. 01:13:21.18 Adelaide Who well right? you're you're taking away their ability and their chance to grow past it which is such a wild like I I don't think she would mind me sharing this but um, my partner Jade recently quit. 01:13:22.20 Jala Every time you say something like that. 01:13:24.58 Zombi That's very true. 01:13:38.11 Adelaide Her job because it was literally causing her to have um, suicidal ideation and like she had to talk to her roommates about it and they were like well working sucks. Everybody hates their job like but like and like I don't. 01:13:51.80 Zombi Oh my goodness. 01:13:57.17 Adelaide The the lack of empathy you know in in in that statement is so wild to me like first of all like how could you not? How could you not want something better for someone like sure everybody hates their job. Great. But like what what is stating that do for you like why? Why would you not. Ah, why would you not like hope for something better for someone else and like I guess maybe there's a certain amount of like commiseration in that like oh yeah, like you know, everybody's job sucks like we can. We can all you know experience that together but like. You know everybody hates themselves like you you know like don't worry about it but like at the same time then you're taking away that person's chance to not hate themselves because then you've just cemented it. First of all they they are justified in hating themselves and second of all. 01:14:53.60 Adelaide Everybody does it. So it's not actually a big deal. 01:14:54.32 Jala Yeah, yeah, and you know there's something that I have that I printed up and I posted on my wall. It's not in my home office but it's at my office for work and it says before you speak let your words pass through these three gates. Is it true. Is it necessary and is it kind and I like to think about that a lot when it comes to like most of my interactions like I try to keep that in mind all the time you can't keep it in mind. 01:15:33.70 Jala Every moment of every day but I really like that. Um that phrasing because you know it's It's important to keep in mind that what not only do your personal negative thoughts affect you. They also as as you open your mouth. You're affecting everyone else around you and that can be really damaging and terrible to all of those folks as well and it doesn't mean that you can't air your grievances or frame it in such a way that you're just trying to seek help through you know or Or. Ah, empathy or whatever it is that you need solace you know you can do that but like a lot of it is just how you frame what you're saying right? and and something like everybody everybody hates themselves That's ah dismissive. That's very dismissive that's damning and that. 01:16:28.90 Jala Again takes away your personal power and that other person that you're speaking to is power and that's you know, ah pretty heavy duty stuff. 01:16:39.39 Zombi Yeah, and I think that um a lot of times it works in both ways in where um, you can be excited about something you'd accomplished or something that you just learned you can go to somebody and share knowledge like hey I just found out X Y Z and then. Somebody who might be jaded in that way will say well everybody knows that or that's not a big deal and then they diminish your accomplishment. They admit they diminish the thing that you're carrying and over time that can really add up and be incredibly damaging and it's like oh well I can't celebrate anything because apparently it's. 01:17:13.90 Adelaide Yeah, it's just unremarkable. 01:17:18.24 Jala Yeah, yeah, and again, it's it's just meeting people where they're at and being aware of where they're at in the first place you know like um, again like whenever there's any kind of heated debate or anything which happens occasionally in my discord. if if I happen to be in there moderating. What is it that I tell everyone I tell you please just stop and think about it think about who you're talking to look at each other. Okay, just look at each other That's all I want you to do and that's that's all I have to say and everybody is just like oh right, you know and they stop you know. 01:17:55.55 Jala So it's just something really important to keep in mind so I didn't mean to go on a high horse about that. But at the same time like it's it's something that I'm very passionate. Okay, okay. 01:18:03.90 Zombi I I don't think that's a high horse I Think that's just you know that's I Even a horse. It's just like you're being human and you're loving these humans that love each other but sometimes they get mad. 01:18:05.41 Adelaide It's yeah, it's important. No. 01:18:12.95 Jala Yeah, and I love everybody I Just want everybody to be happy and I wish for everybody to be happy and to do you know to be their their best whatever that is for them. You know and it's just it's it hurts me. 01:18:31.27 Jala You know like it shouldn't hurt me I guess but it hurts me when I see other people um and and they have these kinds of Mindsets and it's like I know I know it Maybe it's my my whole um I see potential in people thing. But I'm like I know they can they can rise above that you know they can They can. 01:18:49.30 Jala Get past that I know they can you know I believe in that I believe in everyone. 01:18:50.55 Adelaide I Think for me since I'm such a like. So since I'm such a big feeler and like an empathy person like it. It hurts my heart to see people like that because I know that that means that they're so defeated and and to and to see people. 01:19:10.51 Adelaide That have so internalized those like negative thoughts ah kind of breaks my heart a little bit because like it doesn't have to be that way and and I know how much that hurts both people in that conversation. 01:19:25.35 Jala Yeah, and I definitely one of my friends identified me as a fixer I am the type of person that wants to fix everyone I I want to I want to help everyone right I want to help everyone. Ah I want everyone to be at their best and I want to. 01:19:40.84 Jala If I can do anything to help facilitate that I do my damnedest to do that and you know like so there are so many instances where you can't because you know like in order for someone to be fixed. 01:19:53.99 Jala They have to be doing some of those repairs themselves and they have to be like letting you in the door with the the materials and the the tools right? So you know like there' ah you know they have to work on it side by side with you or they have to do it by themselves but like they have to open that door and be receptive to it in the first place before it can happen. 01:19:55.30 Adelaide Bright. Perfect. 01:20:13.98 Jala And that was like a real hard life lesson for me because I just wanted to help everybody. So so yeah and that's part of why we're talking about this this subject too is like you know I I know that Dysphoria and dysmorphia are things that everybody deals with to some degree. 01:20:30.94 Jala You know, even if they if they are cis people they probably have moments of gender dysphoria where they don't feel like they line up 100% with what their their Cis gender is you know? and so like I feel like it is universal and it is something that needs to be talked talked about and the seriousness of it. 01:20:50.21 Jala Really addressed. So the last little. Ah, yeah, yeah. 01:20:51.96 Zombi Yeah I feel lot of ah sorry I like you bringing that up I I'm not making this a competition between cis men and Cis women but I feel like a lot of times especially in you know here in America. Ah. Cisgender oh you know all over the world. Cisgender men get a lot of that maybe dysphoria because of the expectations that they're taught from birth that they have to reach and I just see that and I feel really sad. It's like well people say you're not man enough unless you're. And oftentimes with toxic masculineity unless you have like 10 girlfriends and a fast car blah blah blah blah and I just feel like that's incredibly sad because they're like taught so wrongly from the minute they're alive even if they are taught more right? Just you know that makes them feel like lists of a man and that's just. 01:21:40.55 Zombi Ah, it makes me so sad. 01:21:42.63 Jala Well and you know, ah there there is a toxic masculinity episode in the works. It was going to be actually I think it was supposed to be this month originally but we had to reschedule. 01:21:55.67 Jala So it will be coming out in the fall but we will be having a toxic masculinity episode because um I feel like there has been a lot of a spotlight on the you know toxic masculinity as it relates to women but it hasn't been shined on men until more recent years. 01:22:15.25 Jala And so we're only just now actually addressing hey what does this toxic masculinity actually do to the men who are part of this toxic masculinity or you know who are subject to it all the time and exactly it's like how can you forget. 01:22:21.67 Zombi Right? And that's wild. 01:22:32.50 Jala The entire half of the population. But whatever here we go? Um, So yeah, so that's definitely a topic that we will be discussing in depth at a later date So stay tuned for that. Um. The last little bit of my notes here is on the Trans and non-binary experience of of Gender Dysphoria and body dysmorphia so most transgender individuals have a unique and complex relationship to their bodies transgender and non-binary folks. Not only experience the gendered and transphobic society that we live in. Which is challenging in and of itself but they also are subject to the same diet culture messages and societal pressures around what an ideal body is supposed to look like some transgender and non-binary individuals experience an additional struggle in which their gender identity doesn't align with their bodies. While not all transgender and non-binary individuals with eating disorders experience Gender Dysphoria It is often hard to decipher whether or not one's body image distress is related to gender Dysphoria Body Dysmorphia or hesitancy and self-doubt fueled by societal expectations. Around body ideals and norms. So I'll read that last sentence again because it's important. It is often hard to decipher whether or not one's body image distress is related to gender Dysphoria Body dysmorphia. 01:23:48.10 Adelaide Specific. 01:23:58.31 Jala Or hesitancy and self-doubt fueled by societal expectations around body ideals and norms. So yeah, like um of course like the onset of like I had body dysmorphia even as a small child because people made fun of me from. 01:24:16.46 Jala Early age because children are terrible. Um, so I had that from a very early age. But then when I got to the point where I also had you know increasing Dysphoria Gender Dysphoria on top of that. Then it became like I don't know where this feeling is coming from Am I upset about it because of this room i' upset about because of that and you know it was hard to kind of pin that down if it was this thing or the other thing or you know just like the self-doubt Factor. So So jen. 01:24:46.15 Zombi Damn you self-doubt. 01:24:49.88 Jala Yeah, yeah, self-doubt for sure so gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are interconnected while body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria inform 1 another they do not cause each other therefore they must be treated. Together and eating disorder treatment for transgender and gender nonconforming folks cannot be considered outside of the context of gender identity and I feel like this like I know we're not talking eating disorders on this episode specifically. But this is an important thing to bring up. If you have Dysphoria and dysmorphia both they have to be treated together. They ah they do not exist in separate bubbles. They are all 1 big glom and that's kind of the takeaway message of this whole section of notes here is just they all exist together in 1 big lom and they are things that need to be addressed. 01:25:44.54 Jala Together you know and so like if you are a person who has both of these particular conditions. You need to try to find like if you if you need to seek medical help or like a therapist or something like that you need to take the time to try to vet that person to make sure that they will address. All of the things that you need to address simultaneously so because otherwise yeah, yeah, it's It's otherwise you know like they're they're only addressing the the dysmorphia part of it and they might be treating you like. 01:26:08.24 Zombi That's not something I've considered. 01:26:19.96 Jala You know, ah a woman who has a dysmorphic issue when that's not your you know identity and that's not your reality and so like they can't do that They have to address all of it at once. 01:26:32.77 Zombi Oh no, oh gosh that makes so much sense and I didn't consider it but God that makes sense. Ah. 01:26:36.22 Adelaide Ah, well, um, yeah because I mean like so much of this stuff is intertwined that like a big part of it is is like you might not ah, actually be able to so to sort the. If you think about it like a ball of string or the um, the ah the metaphor that I like to use is it's a tangle of necklaces that are all tangled together and you want to wear one necklace but in order to get to the 1 necklace you have to. Untangle literally every other necklace and what that means is that like you know your your dysmorphia might be connected to your dysphoria and that also is connected to you know your your eating disorder or your anxiety or your depression or. 01:27:27.51 Adelaide All of those things and if you don't look at them like holistically and you just look at the anxiety like well you know we're going to treat this separately and maybe it'll just go away like that's not the way that those things work. 01:27:40.65 Jala Yeah, absolutely and that's kind of also to to shift a little bit away from that but still on topic as a fitness professional myself I am a I'm a personal trainer but and a nutrition coach. But I'm also a bunch of other certifications and the way that I approach things when I work with clients is I work in a very holistic fashion I am always always always looking at what is your stress look like you know how much sleep are you getting? How is. 01:28:14.46 Jala This going on what kind of issues you know, do you have going on right now that were you in your life and and I'm looking at like the larger picture of like your overall wellness not just you know what are you eating and how much are you training? you know I'm not looking at just those things I'm looking at a holistic picture of what is your life look like. And how can we improve your quality of life. Overall so in that way I'm more of a life coach than I am a personal trainer I do both but you know like my emphasis first and foremost is always on that person's wellness above anything else and I have had clients who have had. Ah, history of eating disorders who for example, um, one of them had a history of Anorexia and was very very small and ah this person. Wanted to have like oh I want to grow my butt and I want to have these ebbs and I want to and I'm like okay cool we can do that now what we need to do first is we need to bulk now you tell someone who's had a history of anorexia that you need to bulk. And you know you can imagine what kind of a ah long process that was ah for me to work with them about this but we worked through it and I was very patiently explaining the need for all of the different aspects of what we were doing and um, you know they bang their head against it. 01:29:40.15 Jala And they said I'm not going to eat that many calories I'm going to eat this many calories and then they were like oh I'm feeling really tired and I'm like that's because you need to eat more calories do this and then like once they started to see the process working they began to trust that process and then from there they actually started to get the results they were looking for. 01:29:59.23 Jala And had a healthier relationship with their body and with food and all of this stuff and it was wonderful to see and overall it was like you know, just just having that patience to kind of work with that person through their issues with their body dysmorphia. To get them to where they needed to be empowered them to where now they don't need me anymore like I I I yeah work with clients and I work with clients in such a way that I put myself out of a job like that's how it should be ideally I need to. 01:30:34.87 Jala Get you empowered to where you can do everything without me. You know I shouldn't be like a perpetual need for you I should be able to be a touch point I can help you I can mentor you and then you can go out there and you know do your best. So. 01:30:48.60 Zombi And that's what like the fitness and beauty industry tries to sell us like you always need us so you always need to be paying us so when it should be more of what Joll is doing like um I'm only here for you until you can do this yourself and I'm going to help you get there. 01:31:03.50 Jala Yeah, yeah, and that there is a mindset right? like there are a lot of people who were like you know I knew that they were ready to fly without me and they were like no no no no I'll stay on the program I'll stay on the program for a few more and they would stay with me for like. Somewhere between 3 to 6 extra months that they really didn't need to. They didn't really need me but they was like their security blanket and I just had to wait for for baby bird to you know and you know it's like okay that's fine I I'll continue to mentor you and do whatever and and whatever but you know like I feel like at this point you're good. 01:31:24.74 Zombi Yeah, and that's okay. 01:31:37.98 Zombi And that's the one That's one of the important things so you communicate to them hey you don't need me anymore. But then you also you know it's good to be respectful that layer like okay I maybe I don't need you but it's still like you. 01:31:49.79 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure. So so yeah, so ah, some wrap-up thoughts that I wanted to kind of talk about is so far as the dysmorphia and Dysphoria So what is your biggest challenge in working through your thoughts and feelings about. 01:32:08.35 Jala Dysmorphia and dysphoria. 01:32:13.14 Zombi Ah, remembering that I shouldn't hate myself in that just because there are times where I do hate myself. Not everyone hates me because I think I hate myself therefore everyone hates me and they just loop that I'm trying to work through. 01:32:25.28 Jala Yeah, it's real hard to get through that that kind of mindset and that's it's scary because like especially if you are a fluid person or somebody with a switch like me like I. I already I think that when I switch and I'm in my super severe Super soldier mode like I I don't think anybody can abide me unless they unless they need me for something you know they need me to be their strong person like otherwise I don't think anybody can abide me when I meant like that. But um, you know so I I get that. 01:32:56.79 Jala I get that a lot but at the same time. It's like you would be surprised. You would be surprised even if you have that feeling in and of yourself and sometimes that's just like a time thing you need to have people exposed to that side of yourself that you don't like enough and let them reassure you enough that no, that's fine. 01:33:16.29 Jala And they don't they don't hate that you know side of you or whatever for you to feel better. You know and sometimes it's just like getting that separation that layer of separation between your thoughts like that what we were talking about at the beginning where it's like the reality and your personal perception are 2 different things and you know like that. 01:33:35.34 Jala Ongoing process kind of thing. So. 01:33:41.70 Adelaide Um I think for me ah in terms of like my my dysphoria is just that like trying to remember that changes take time It's not a thing that happens overnight so like with Hrt. . like you don't start seeing results or most typically people everybody's body is different obviously but typically people don't start seeing any sort of result you know until like six months in or like a year in and then like that that kind of stuff typically tops out at like. 2 to 3 years so like as frustrating as it might be for me to be wherever I am now like I also have to remember that like I still have more time to go and there's nothing that makes that time pass faster I just have to like wait. Um. And that's really frustrating and then one of the things that I really struggled with a lot a lot. Um early on is a feeling of frustration that like it took me so long to to come to my own identity and like for as much as I'm happy now there is a like. Little thought Gremlin that lives in the back of my head that's like well wouldn't things have been better like think about how much life would have been better for you. Ah, if you had known two years ago four years ago five years ago ten years ago like wouldn't it have been better if you knew when you were a kid and like. 01:35:15.19 Adelaide All of those things are like sure like sure they they technically like you know, Ideally, if I had caught it when I was a child pre puberty like ah possibly you know I could have gotten on puberty blockers provided that they were even accessible and my parents would have done it. Um. And like sure that would have been the best time to catch it but like ultimately like none of that actually that that's a that's a unhelpful thought cycle because like would it have been better I don't know it could have been Worse. It could have been way worse like. 01:35:52.94 Adelaide In a lot of ways you know location and time wise like you know?? Ah ah, things are better for Trans people than they have been and like access to hormones and Health care is still tricky but again like better than they have been. If I had known when I was a kid who knows if I would have you know how long it would have taken me to get access to puberty blockers or H R T or any of those things. Um, you know so like it but all the same like that that thought still. Like lives kind of in the back of my head and ah it it. It can really it can really screw me up sometimes. 01:36:38.35 Jala Yeah, yeah, and it's hard to kind of like separate yourself from the what a could a shut a right? like you know you're always just like God If only I you know X Whatever that is and that's that's always really hard and that's just again I think that's just. 01:36:58.11 Jala That's that's just a human thing like I think that's ah, a really common kind of situation to find yourself in. Um, although of course like you know you you can't say for sure what might have happened like if you had identified it earlier. You might have been bullied more who knows what would have happened. 01:37:17.47 Jala Could have had a very negative terrible situation or you could have had the best positive situation and there's not really any way to tell you know like we are here now you know Adelaide is Adelaide and you know, ah you know here we be so. 01:37:35.61 Jala Yeah, for me the biggest challenge I have in working through my thoughts and feelings like so um with the Dis Morphia the body dysmorphia I have pretty much worked through a lot of that but I am still actively reading a lot of materials at this time about you know. 01:37:55.25 Jala Unpacking fat phobia and everything in part because we're doing the episode coming up soon this next month. But at the same time It's also edification for me and helping me to see like the larger history of where this is coming from. Why is it a thing. And see just how damaging all of the situation was like from the time that I was small onward right? and in part seeing and identifying those original causes and you know why these things are happening in the first place helps me to better quantify. You know and justify. Okay, well. 01:38:30.10 Jala You know I already have this layer of separation I've I've already mentioned that between you know what I see in the mirror I know that my perception of what I see in the mirror is different from someone else's I already have that layer of Separation. So I've got that going for me. That's great, but like still. Somewhere in the back of my mind even if I can do that and even even if I can go. You know if I'm looking at myself from somebody else's viewpoint I can see that they don't even really even see cellulite on me right now like. 01:38:58.98 Jala That's not a big thing but do I see it. Yes I focus in on it I focus in on my acne on my face I focus in on you know, like this that and the other thing and so you know I I still struggle with those things like I have signs of aging like I have underneath my chin.. There is one part and. I've never mentioned this on a show before so this is a terrible like vulnerable moment for me. So like I have under my chin there is form from when I lost weight I have a little bit of loose skin and it's a loose skin on one side that shows more when I take a picture from one side than if I do from the other and I I basically. 01:39:34.54 Jala Because I'm terrible I call it like my lizard flap because you know how Lizards have those frills still call it a lizard flap and so it's just like this loose skin that I Really really was seriously thinking about getting surgically removed but you know that it even if I did. 01:39:50.23 Jala But doesn't even matter because like I'm 40 I'm going to be older I'm going to have more loose skin. It's just going to happen. So even if I did it would only be a temporary fix that would cost me a lot of money and pain to to do something about for no reason just because like I so much is about so like. 01:40:07.45 Jala You know, um, not getting that surgery and and and not buying into that because that's what the the beauty myths wants you to believe like all this the surgeons and stuff want you to believe you need to go do that I'm not doing that. Um I'm just dealing with it right? You know? So I'm I'm working on it. But um. 01:40:25.60 Jala Insofar as the Dysphoria Gender Dysphoria is concerned. Um I already mentioned it I kind of like having the words to you know vocalize exactly where the frustration comes from is important. Um, but then taking that frustration since I can't. Make it go away given my situation given my gender identity. Um I Just have to turn that to a positive use and use that to fuel me to you know, ratchet myself up even farther and give myself new personal records and you know beat the pants off of everybody. So. 01:41:03.75 Jala You know like I'm already turning that to a positive and so I found a positive ah you know venue for that to to be vented so you know, ah so that's good. Ah the biggest challenge in dealing with it is just that It's always there. It doesn't go away. 01:41:20.86 Jala And there isn't a way to fix it. So what helps you the most deal with these things. 01:41:32.18 Zombi That's a good one I think um I think what helps me the most is learning so kind of what we're doing right here understanding things about my body like I. 01:41:45.28 Zombi At 1 point did have more and of an issue with my cellulite for example until I learned oh that's just how fat cells work I did have an issue with the hip dips until I remembered hey I've got bones and I think that one of the biggest things I've done to help myself is just educating myself and learning. Why things are the way they are and it helps you come to terms with it if not fully accepted. It just helps you understand and I think that goes a long way toward feeling better because that's just what it is like control what you can control. But if you can't control it then just do your best to live with it in a way that. 01:42:21.31 Jala Yes, yes, well said well said. 01:42:21.34 Zombi Makes you happy and serves you. 01:42:26.71 Adelaide Um, I know I mean like this this is really basic but like for me just external validation like just being ah told I'm pretty or like you know clothes look good on me. My makeup looks good things like that do so much. Like good for me. Um, because a lot of my stuff is like wrapped up in appearance. Not necessarily attractiveness because like people will or won't think I'm attractive and that doesn't bother me but like you know, ah just like. The the amount of external validation that I get from people is very affirming ah for for ah for my dysphoria and also for dysmorphia. Um, another thing that really helps with the dysphoria is just like 1 of the most. Amazing things I think about like meeting new people and interacting with you know more open minded people and whatnot is like first of all, they don't know that I was ever anything other than I am now which is like what a sigh of relief. Um, because like I think sometimes when I interact with. 01:43:37.14 Adelaide People that knew me from before. Ah I I feel this pressure to like combat that previous image or that previous self um and like there I it has been such like a pleasant surprise to come across people that just. Just accept me as Adelaide. They the that's all they know me as and and I'm just a woman to them and like that comes I can tell for the most part when people have to work at it and I can tell when it comes naturally um. And I I appreciate both right? because like people that have to work at it at least are working at it but like it's such a joy to me to just have to see that happen so naturally and for people to not have to like grapple with it before they come to it. 01:44:27.82 Jala Yeah, yeah, and can I say too that there is a lot like whenever anybody says that you know external validation is important to them Suddenly there's always somebody that's got to pop up somewhere and be like you shouldn't be doing that You know what. 01:44:46.51 Jala Shove it because external validation is really important, especially because we are social animals like okay if you are 100% that's the only thing like you have you crave that validate. You need that valid then you can't exist without it well then. Okay, yes, then you've got a problem but like external validation is fine and wonderful. 01:45:05.87 Jala And you know like should not be disparaged because it is important and I feel the same way like um, external validation like especially when I was doing poll dance and people you know were paying attention to that because people well let me say ah with the Dis Dysphoria I don't ever get. 01:45:24.61 Jala You know affirmations of the Dysphoria like whenever I'm in dude mode like that doesn't happen. But when it comes to being femme I have lots and lots of um affirmation towards you know how feminine I look or whatever like that and you know it. 01:45:40.43 Jala I I've mentioned this before I don't know if I've mentioned on this episode but a lot of times I feel like a pod when it comes to being in. You know a group of women because I'm not a hundred percent you know like I don't identify a hundred percent like I like I'm not as this woman so like I don't it feels weird to me I feel. 01:45:57.82 Jala Weird and uncomfortable. So like because of that like I feel like I am a weird and awkward woman sometimes so as a result like when I get that validation when people are seeing me on pole or whatever and then they're like oh you know you're so sexy or whatever like it's. Affirming to me because he's like no I successfully did the thing hey you know it happened once you know so so that's great. Um, and ah, anyway, so so there's that and definitely I have to second as well. Zombis education. 01:46:32.69 Jala Right? Ah, knowledge is power. That's what I'm doing on this podcast I'm trying to ah absorb a lot of information have a lot of good conversations and then disseminate that information out into the universe so that everybody can you know have it available to them as well. 01:46:50.96 Adelaide Um, just I'm sorry I thought of 1 1 more thing as we were talking about education which has obviously been enormously helpful to me as well. But um, the other thing that like I think is super cool that I haven't really ever noticed Intel like I started transitioning is like despite. Is is like seeing ah Cis women look anyway like we have this idea of femininity and like what is like you know, ah the way that a a woman looks um and maybe even what is the way that a trans woman looks and like all of these. Unk conceived ideas. But like 1 of my favorite things is just like seeing how how great of a variety there is in just normal as cis people. Um and they can just look at any other sort of way and and like. That has really helped like sort of break down. Ah the idea of like do I look you know feminine enough or do I look enough like a woman. 01:47:52.54 Jala Right? right? Because at that point you were broadening it up and you are looking and you are seeing all of the variety that is out there in the world and you're going. No we are all individuals. We are all different except that guy in the back who's saying I'm not. 01:48:11.77 Jala Monty on reference. But anyway, ah so so yeah, and that's also really an important thing to keep in mind as well because like you know, are you comparing yourself to this you know, unrealistic ideal that only like two two people in the world look like or is it going to be like. 01:48:30.90 Jala You know you're you're looking at other people and going. Oh actually everybody looks different and is cool. So I just feel like I feel like a pod when I'm around women I I feel very markedly different and weird and self-conscious and you know like I ah that that comes and goes I think it really. 01:48:50.40 Jala It makes it worse if it's like a group of of Cis women and there are no people of other gender identities or fluidity fluted to teas or whatnots. Um in the group that I feel more uncomfortable like I think it's just you know, ah large groups. 01:49:05.54 Zombi Is it like having a lack of people that you can relate to very much. Oh yeah, okay. 01:49:07.14 Jala Large groups of this group people but lack of lack a lack of diversity I think is the thing. Um, you know, just like I I need more diversity and like when you have a bunch of like Cis ladies in a group like you know and that's that's all that there is there then that's. 01:49:25.79 Jala That's a real specific type and like even if there's like racial variety I Still feel weird and uncomfortable because there's not like the gender variety. You know so like turns out I actually like lots of diversity and lots of variety and every literally everything everything. So. 01:49:42.70 Jala Yeah, So so that's that's ah part of what I think so um, other than that we've already talked about like how your relationship to these things has changed over time. Um, but what are you doing actively at this moment to kind of combat these. Dysmorphia Dysphoria feelings. 01:50:01.71 Zombi Well I don't know I don't know if I ever mentioned it here I don't think so but I recently got into lifting as well and that's been like a heavens end in helping me combat a lot of these things so it can both be gender affirming. Um I don't know how to explain it. But I feel. 01:50:21.30 Zombi Tough and manly you know in a way it can. It can be kind of gender affirming. But also I while I'm not seeing much change in my body yet I'm not bothered by that because I do feel stronger and I feel like with that feeling stronger like physically stronger I feel mentally stronger too like it's helping. Push me in the correct direction that I view my own goal my own direction that I'm aiming for myself. 01:50:46.70 Jala Um, absolutely. 01:50:50.36 Adelaide Um I think for me I mean like so part of it is like having these conversations and being able to talk to other you know people along the gender spectrum and talk about you know how our individual weirdness affects us and like. That that is really comforting in the sense that like sometimes I you know I can feel really alienated about like oh you know this is this is like this is something that separates me from people and it can be really, Ah, it can be really. 01:51:27.73 Adelaide Um, affirming and like very comforting to know that like even if we you know, suffered differently. Um or you know specific ways that dysmorphia or Dysphoria affects us like it's not a singular struggle and then. You know the other thing is kind of like what we've been talking about is just like trying to be cognizant of like so for for me being able to separate what is actual actual like internal body dysmorphia and what is like and Dysphoria and like what is. Social Dysmorphia Um, and Dysphoria has been really helpful because then I I know the things like like ah you know there are a lot of things that I could I could do to change myself I Could you know?? ah you would adapt get bottom surgery implants. Ah. 01:52:25.77 Adelaide You know all of that stuff and and like being able to hone in on the things that are actually important to me and like working on those things instead of like looking at the whole me and being like oh my God What a mess you know, um, has been really helpful because then it gives me. Ah, pinpoint things that I can work in work on so like I don't like having facial hair. So As soon as I have the money to do so like I'm I'm going to Pursue Electrolysis I'm going to get it taken off and then I won't have to worry about it anymore and that'll be super great. Um, and you know though. That that is a tangible step that I can take that will improve my dysmorphia and my Dysphoria Um, and so like being able to hone in on those things that are actually like actually important to me as a person. Um and separate those From. What are like societal expectations of me as a woman. Um I think has been very helpful for my brain. 01:53:30.11 Jala Yeah,, that's a really really important point too and you know understanding what you yourself value and what you yourself want and you know how you are best comfortable and best served. That's really really crucial information to have. So for me, what am I doing actively when it comes to the Dysphoria and dysmorphia both like I've been back at training for several months now I've been doing lots and lots of lifting I Only recently started to cut which. Kind of got waylaid by this this whole lord of the rings challenge thing which once once we're done with this leg I will stop. Ah I will stop being ah a mad person who is on a bike you know, spitting my heart out I will stop trying to to murder everyone and I will kill back to. Um, just doing my usual stuff I I intend to go through a cut which will help me feel stronger because I will be actually able to see my muscles and I want to get back to doing poll and running and dancing I think will really help with the. Disconnect from femininity and lifting of course is a nice connection that is affirming to me in various ways. But once I'm I'm cut and trimmed down a little bit more Um, it'll be more actually affirming on both feminine and masculine sides for me right now I feel more like it's a masculine. 01:54:58.40 Jala Activity just because like I don't feel like I look particularly feminine right now even though I know that's a self-perception thing like that's just how it is and it's just because like I'm not embodying femininity in the way that I like to with dance and things like that. So until I get back to doing those things. 00:00.00 Jala So lifting for me is right now currently more of a masculine activity just because I don't feel like I am expressing femininity very much at this time and it's just because for me the way that I best like to express that femininity is. Ah, combination of dressing up and going out somewhere where people can see me and then also doing stuff like poll dance. Those things are very feminine to me and I like to do that you know it's it's kind of like what you've said before Addie like when it you know it's affirming to you to you know, have this presentation externally. 00:38.40 Jala So Like that's a lot of how the femininity works for me too. So right Now. Um until I get cut down and trimmed up more I feel more like um, not necessarily androgynous, but like I don't feel like I'm especially feminine. At this point and again that's partially because I'm not doing the dance and I'm not going out places and dressing up all that often. So doing those things again will help get me back into a balance to where even lifting will be like this nice zen activity where I feel both. Very feminine and very masculine at the same time. It has unique capacity lifting does to make me feel that way in a way that most other activities do not So um, for me actively working against these issues involves actual activity. 01:34.91 Jala And doing certain things um, certain actions and and partaking of certain types of um events or activities you know rituals if you will like the making up of the face and doing the the planning out the outfits and the whatever like all of that stuff goes into affirming. 01:53.39 Jala Those feelings for me and making me feel better about myself because it's all like you know personal upkeep stuff right? It's not like I rolled out of bed and because I work remotely I Just throw on a t-shirt and some shorts and I just look like that and my hair could be whatever way and nobody sees me. 02:10.89 Jala You know like I look like a cave troll in my own mind like that kind of a situation like I'm actually making ah an effort I am I'm putting you know, investing time and effort and energy into myself and then presenting that and you know. 02:26.72 Jala At that point. Yes I could have external validation but I don't even really need it at that point because I feel better having made that effort and that's something that I think a lot of people had to grapple with during Covid lockdown because so many people were like affected in various ways like so many different ways. 02:46.64 Jala Ah, by the seclusion and still are to this day but like the the not seeing people and not putting an effort in you know to your presentation of self and and having that kind of interaction and being seen and all this other stuff really. Does a lot to us because we are social animals even if we are loners we are still to some degree like we interact with people to some degree and you know we still need ah a little bit more than what we were able to get during Covid for the most part. So. Ah, yeah for me that would be my actively combating situation. So ah. 03:30.96 Zombi Yeah I think mine's a lot like similarly to yours instead of um, more so more so with activities that you can do yourself and I think it's more of that whole needing to have some sort of control over my person to feel better and ah in doing activities that relate to. 03:48.52 Zombi How I want my body to feel or my mind to feel. It's like that's the thing that works for me. Best. 03:53.90 Jala Well, right? because too with so many people passing judgment on your body and judging you because of how you look right? and and telling you these things like you can't be gender fluid because you look X way. That's them immediately. Through those words taking away your power right? So like that leads to even more stuff about control right? So So you know like that's that's ah, an affirming activity for you is taking control over your own situation and doing what you will with it. So So yeah. 04:15.22 Zombi Right? exactly. 04:30.66 Jala Ah, my last little wrap up question here is do you have any suggestions for people who may be struggling with these same situations. The body Dysmorphia Gender Dysphoria Both and whatever. 04:43.37 Zombi So we already kind of talked about doing things for yourself and within yourself and these are vital these are important these are things that you have to do at the end of the day but my biggest suggestion is definitely find a safe support group. 05:00.18 Zombi Whether it's family or if your family and safe friends like the family that you make is also that important and I think you really need to like find people that you can you know, not rely on unless you really need to and they're there for you that way. But um, people that can make you feel like you're not alone because we're not alone. 05:19.21 Zombi There's so many people in the world that care for each other like I care for every single person there and we exist we're all out there and the thing is it's hard to reach out. It's hard to put yourself out there but that's really going to be 1 of the best things you can do that isn't something that you're doing to control like in your. 05:37.28 Jala Right? Because in some ways too. It can be very very crucial to have those other voices to act as disruptors to your own personal negative stream of thought so you know those people and and again like that external validation when you get it. 05:48.56 Adelaide Yeah. 05:56.12 Jala Is so crucial because it is that interrupter. So. 06:01.71 Adelaide Yeah I mean I would I I would definitely agree with all of that. Um I know personally in my experience like having communities like jawless discount cord or like Zombis discord or like the duck feed slack were like incredibly important for. Supporting me through my like coming to terms and grappling with identity and having access to people that were trans or people that were outside of my experience and being able to talk to them and be like hey like this is a thing I'm going through what what do you think about that. Um, has been so enormously and continues to be enormously helpful for me. Um, just having a place where I can go and like not not even that I I feel like I need to be super guarded around people like that I know in real life but having a place. Where there isn't going to be judgment and I don't have to worry about that. Um, is so so important. Um the other thing that I would say and and you know I didn't I guess mention it in the actively combating things but like talk to a therapist like and and and find a therapist that. Works for you. Um, another thing that's been enormously helpful for me is like being in Therapy and and I think that goes to jalla your point of just having a an unbiased third party be like well. 07:33.81 Adelaide Is that really what's going on though because like you know, ah talking to your friends or talking to your partner or talking to your family can sometimes be loaded. You know, like there are situations that maybe you feel like you don't think you can explain to them or like. 07:51.40 Adelaide There is a perception and I know this is something I I have struggled with in relationships before in trying to help my partners feel more affirmed is there is an expectation that because of your relationship with them or because of your closeness to them. You are not an objective party you. Even even if you truly believe someone is beautiful or truly believe they're they're a good person or whatever you know, positive affirmation that you have for them. There is still sort of ah a slant to that which is that you love them or you know they're important to you or or whatever but like a therapist doesn't have that. They're just like they want to get paid and help you but like also they want to get paid so like having having that like objective third party like sort of cut through and and be able to give you the feedback without that sort of you know, ah familial bat. Baggage I think is also enormously helpful. 08:52.10 Zombi You know it's actually nice to hear that my therapist doesn't love me I don't know how I feel about that. 08:53.92 Jala Um, absolute oh yeah, for sure. So yeah and I would just kind of again kind of underline. We've said it a few times but the. 09:10.70 Jala Self-education part and the having conversations part like again, we've all all talked about it like how important it is to have other people to discuss these things with and you know listening to this is a step if you want to reach out to any of us in chit chat about it feel free. 09:25.90 Adelaide Yeah, absolutely. So. 09:26.78 Jala You know like we are all around you know somewhere wherever we may be found which we'll talk get to in a minute but ah, you know, ah having people to talk about these things with and self-education for me a lot of my battle in most of the instances where I have some kind of problem that I'm grappling with is to first find the words. 09:46.75 Jala Of What is wrong exactly and pinning that down and pinning it down like where did it come from and you know like in my mind because I'm super thorough about everything I approach like I want to learn the history and I want to learn like the all this other information that better informs. My position so that I know what I'm up against and how I can beat it and so like the more I arm myself with more information and the more that I have these conversations and see other people's viewpoints the easier it is for me to then take all of that. And turn it back on myself and use that to my advantage when I'm fighting my own internal fight. So That's what I've got. 10:29.86 Zombi You got armed yourself you got to get a hefty arsenal for that fight. 10:35.54 Jala That's right, that's right because you know none of this stuff is easy man not 1 bit. so so yeah all right? So on that note where in the world can people find you if you may be found anywhere. Adelaide. 10:51.61 Adelaide Um I do hang out in jawless slack or but discord I'm always up for talking to people about their queer identities I find that stuff endlessly fascinating. Um I sometimes. Stream on Twitch. Ah the name there is Sister Adelaide and then I have a Youtube channel which may get resurrected from the grave again which is Youtube.com/backonmyps ah 6 1 3 6 are. 11:25.30 Jala Um, best name and in Zombi where we can people find you on the internet. 11:35.91 Zombi Um I have I have a campsite with all of my links but I go by Zombi lolly with no um, no e and just COMB I l o l I spelling out loudest heart. Um I'm pretty chatty on Twitter on discords I have my own I'm also in jales. 11:53.12 Zombi I do not accept Dms because you know craziness. But you know, go ahead and check out my links I big content and I'm cool etc. 12:03.89 Jala That's right and you can definitely check all of that out Zombi has like a whole lot on offer So check all of those things out very cool, Very good top top grade content. Yes. 12:08.69 Adelaide They make very good content. They're a good streamer. Very funny. 12:14.59 Zombi I Want to hug you all so bad. Thank you. 12:20.20 Jala Quality content. Yeah, all right? So anyway I'm jalchan in places on the internet including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all the others and that is all for now folks, until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/Jala. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]