[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Raúl (he/him) and Simón (he/him) both of whom have been on this podcast previously. So. Raúl how are you doing today. 00:19.88 Raúl Um, I'm doing pretty well I'm doing better than yesterday, but hopefully not as good as tomorrow. 00:27.40 Jala That's do you just every time you come on the show. You just have like the best most inspiring response like just end the podcast there don't even need to finish it. Yeah. 00:33.39 Simón Yeah, you're you're showing off I was gonna be like I'm fine. Thanks. Nice. 00:34.13 Raúl I had thought I had a month to think of it. 00:41.89 Jala Right? Since the last time you were on. that's ok, that's ok ah you're going to be this January is the month of Raúl being on the show. So like both both episodes for this month are featuring you at the top of 2023 it's your year bro. Yeah anyway, so Simón. 00:56.24 Raúl I'd like to apologize in advance. 01:01.90 Jala How are you doing? You're fine. Thanks. 01:03.49 Simón Yes, I'm fine. Thanks ah, it is ah I know weather talks never that interesting, but it is um yeah, the wind chill is like negative 30 or so right now. So it's like really really for real cold. 01:21.30 Simón But thankfully ah you know I've got a house in a fireplace and ah you know stuff to do So it's It's pretty cozy. So I'm all right. 01:31.17 Jala Yeah, so full disclosure for the listeners. We are recording early this episode drops on January I believe it's the sixth but we are recording this the weekend right before. Or right of Christmas so just a few days before Christmas and um, it's the wonderful freeze. The arctic freeze from Siberia or wherever this wind came from. No thank you with that negative 35 sir I got like a 2 here and that's enough like I'm I am not. 02:03.67 Simón Yeah, it's no fun. No fun. 02:04.13 Jala Built for this weather? Yeah so at the top of this episode I did want to thank all of the listeners who supported this show as well as monster dear monster in 2022 via Kofi. So. Shout-out to Greg and Ruki for being the first subscribers as well as Jack and Chris for their generous donations Chris in particular also happens to run the franchise festival podcast alongside his co-host Hamilton the show covers. Development of noteworthy video game franchises from the 1980 s to present day. Ah their last season season 2 ah covered all of resident evil I don't know if there's still going on on that or what? Ah, but either way they covered 8 most recently. So. I guess that is everything for now unless they're covering some of the the weird entries rather than just the main lines. Anyway, you can find that at franchise festivalpodcast.com also you can stay tuned for news about our upcoming monthly subscription tiers via our coffee. We're in the works of figuring out. What. Our little network is going to be able to offer but we need to go get married and stuff first and kind of get back from that and settle down before we can kind of sort out those incentives for folks who can kick us few bucks and if you cannot donate. Of course you can always. 03:30.43 Jala Like and rate and review on your platform of choice. You can also share share share this podcast with anybody you think would be interested as the only way we grow so there I did all of my super admin stuff at the top I'm done with that now we can talk about. What we're talking about today which I didn't even announce. It's a heritage and heredity. So this is kind of Simóne. You were on the episode that was talking about diversity and the next generation and. 04:04.82 Simón Yep. 04:06.40 Jala Raúl you were on to talk about being a first -generation american so we've already kind of discussed just me and you guys individually these topics a little bit but today we're going to be sitting a little bit more with the idea of. Bringing your culture forward to the next generation because both of you happen to be fathers. So yeah. Does anybody else. Want to talk to us about how culture is fast down or shall I read my notes myself. 04:38.51 Simón Oh no, no, it's it's cool. Yeah I was just like yes that is awful. Um, yeah well I mean so there's a lot of good kind of you know you always hit the the academic stuff. But um, yeah I. 04:40.70 Jala Go for it. Do it see. 04:54.92 Simón I Don't know prop maybe snip this part out I thought I had something and I lost it. But ah yeah I don't know I guess introduce it and then I'll chime in. 05:01.69 Jala Okay, let me put a little footnote I will tell Dave to cut that whole part out. Okay so culture is passed on to the next generation by exposing them. To that culture surprising. No one. Yes, you pass it along by having the people exposed to the culture so parents don't always do a thorough job of explaining to their kids and so I think of this process as kind of. A lossy facsimile. It's like a fax of a facts of a Fas of the facts or a Jpeg saved as a smaller Jpeg as a smaller Jpeg and through iterations. It starts to degenerate over time. So it's incomplete on each transmission. So parents can pass this culture on well enough for it to remain vibrant and alive. But that actually requires that the parents invest time and energy in educating their children and the children also have to be receptive to learning so we talked about in the first generation american episode. About how sometimes the kids you know don't want to learn about the parents culture like I wasn't that child but ah Raoul and Antonio both talked about how they just didn't really you know necessarily. 06:29.27 Jala Jive with like their parents' culture right away. So what was both of your okay so Raúl I already know that you said that you you were kind of like resentful of your parents culture for a while. Did you want to add something further about that. 06:43.60 Raúl Me yes I had mentioned previous episode that's sometime around seven or eight years old I kind of just wanted to be with big air quotes here normal um, and. Refused to speak Spanish for years and I think this might be a universal parenting experience. But my kids in elementary school and it's very dispiriting to see your own flaws reflected back at you because my my son whom. 07:20.37 Raúl Spoke in Spanish to his whole life. Ah is not so much refusing but like he's he'll he's speaking to me in English more and I have to keep reminding him to to swap back to spanish. 07:37.86 Raúl And I'm worried he's going to lose his his ability to to speak spanish right now he's he's fluent just like I was fluent at that age and I wasn't fluent again for many many years 07:52.10 Raúl And ah, it's like I want him to make new and different mistakes. Don't repeat mine. You know. 07:58.20 Simón Yeah I think that's what what every parent wants is like go go have go have your own ah complicated relationship with something don't don't repeat mine I've I've already been there? Yeah well um, you know Jolla I ah can respond to something you said you know you kind of. 08:15.12 Simón Jokingly said oh you know surprising no one you know parents have to actually ah pass it on for it to continue but it made me think that I I do think that ah like everyone gets that. But I think there are a lot of people that get stuck with. Ah, their parents being surprised later that like things didn't stick you know like why? why? Why don't you know everything about the culture you know or why don't you fit in perfectly with your relatives when they when they haven't put the effort in and that's not so much in in my case but. 08:52.78 Simón Um I don't know I feel like I've I've seen that with with ah family friends and stuff other you know first generation kind of people. Um, where yeah, the parents are like well yeah I mean you it was around right? It was in the house. So so why didn't you pick it up. 09:12.16 Raúl Yeah I Um I Can honestly say that I don't I can't remember my parents ever actually intentionally passing down their culture. They just you know they lived their lives and we kind of learned through osmosis and. Because of where I live I kind of don't really know? What's my culture and what's not in that like I'll I'll say or do something ah in Spanish and somebody will look at me and say like what what the hell does that mean. Like no, that's that's ah this thing like no, we've never heard that before that must be a cuban thing and you know I just thought that was a spanish thing. Um I go ahead I actually learned a lot of Cuban culture from my. 10:08.30 Raúl Ah, well my starter wife. Ah my first marriage she was a naturalized cuban but it was different because you know it's different generations which just like here different generations are almost like completely different. Cultures and at least for cubans they have this weird quirk where every generation kind of hates the next one like oh you know these new cubans that are coming over are super lazy and. They want everything handed to them or whatever and each generation says that about the next one coming over so I kind of have a mishmash to be honest. 10:50.69 Simón So yeah, that's that's interesting role because in my case, um you know I I live in a city that now has a larger Spanish speaking ah population though. It's I mean realistically it's It's a lot of like you know. 11:07.94 Simón Migrants here for labor that you know may or may not stick around but when I was growing up. Ah yeah, we were like you know I was the only one in the room kind of so it was it was really clear what you know what was my culture and and my parents. Um. Kind of had to more explicitly introduce that you know there was some stuff from being around. Um you know, family friends and other kids like me where you kind of just pick it up by osmosis like you said, but that's interesting I was um I was just down in Miami and and. You know I felt how that was just kind of in the groundwater you know like you just go into the shop and everywhere there's just kind of culture seeping into there but I I can understand how um yeah, you could lose track of well what is how you know mom and dad speak. Or you know what's like a ah regional thing from this part of Cuba or you know, whatever? Um, because yeah I've I've had that too where you know the the more I met people like ah people that were from Mexico like my dad but 2 states over and I'm like I have no idea what he just said to me. 12:15.25 Raúl Since it says that. Hurt. 12:21.43 Jala Yeah, so um, for me my mom is german and norwegian I did not get very much of that culture at all. And that's because when I was growing up my dad wanted everything to be steeped in cuban culture because he's an immigrant fear from Cuba and that's what he wanted and he was a domineering person and my mom just kind of went with whatever he wanted. So I never. Got to hang out with any of my relatives on my mom's side unless they happened to be passing through town and I had no idea who any of those people were I had no connection to them I had no connection to much of anything from my mom's side of the family at all and no cultural elements. There was like. A couple of things here and there that we picked up you know, like here's a dish or 2 and then here's a certain way that we do a thing but it was only kind of coincidentally picked up and she didn't. Like she tried to kind of teach us every once in a while but not very often a little bit about that. So nothing ever stuck because we weren't ever exposed to that culture and you know it was always cuban stuff cuban stuff cuban stuff. So. 13:41.13 Jala And even then like the cuban stuff that we were exposed to like yes we had the food and even when we were in Miami that was you know? Yes, it was around but I don't know all of the different traditions and all of the different. Folklore and other elements of Cuba I you know I know some stuff but I don't know like the ins and outs of the culture like somebody who is actually from the island so you know in my case, you know I can't say that just having it around in the ambient area was. Ah, valid way for me to pick it up in any big big way I mean yes, there's some of that culture. But it's not the same as a thorough understanding and in order for something to be preserved. It has to be as complete as possible, especially since. If I were to have kids which I'm not but like you know my sister has kids her kids are going to have a part of her incomplete understanding and then their kids will have part of their you know those kids come you know incomplete understanding and then it keeps on changing over time. 14:54.15 Simón He Rao can governor see he was waiting for. 14:54.73 Jala Everybody wants to talk. Okay, somebody go. 14:59.71 Raúl Um, well first um, your dad robbed you of some of the best swear words? Um, but you had mentioned the the food and I guess that that is the part that I think was passed stuff along. Best. 15:16.54 Raúl At least to me. Um, like I learned how to make cuban coffee from my grandmother I learned how to cook from my aunt. Ah, like if if there's any aspect of cuban culture that I know it's the food. Um I don't know ah Simón wanted to talk I let him go. 15:33.80 Simón Yeah I mean I I definitely know food well because it's it's delicious and then when I went to visit family. You know you taste it from the source I was like damn. But um, yeah, the thing I was thinking of ah Jolla you were saying how it was. 15:51.10 Simón Like kind of just having Cuban culture and and people just kind of in the air wasn't you know didn't give you like a clear cohesive understanding. You know, um and I mean really when you think about it. It's It's the same for you know being. 16:09.18 Simón Born and raised in the us you don't necessarily know anything about the history of the country or kind of you know the cultural synthesis that leads to the things we have today like it. It requires some study and some curriculum and and having. Things repeated and reinforced and I think that yeah there there are a lot of um, a lot of people that just yeah, you know you you get your food or you know music or dancing or whatever. Um, but. He never really have things explained. Ah and I know for me and like my my thing I kind of got into heavily um during covid was ah family history and genealogy and stuff and I'll probably talk about that later. But. 17:03.14 Simón Because of that because of of saying oh so I I think you know such and such ancestor was in this town Um, have you ever heard of that My dad would go. Oh yeah, Yeah yeah, you know it's right next to this and you know I used to go there and historically this and that happened and and that was. Those are are those things where I was like doing all this study and and learning these things and finding it really exciting. But of course you know if you like are born and raised in that State. You're like yeah of course that's ah you know it's like me knowing where akron is or something. 17:37.35 Raúl And yeah, some you just reminded me of something talking about your your ancestry and it kind of ties back to your lossy facsimile Ah metaphor earlier that. 17:52.37 Raúl Ah, my grandmother was born during World War one which was just a completely different World. My dad was born during World War two and this is something that I've kind of realized as I was prepping for this episode that I've. I've been worried about passing along my parents' culture but they passed along their culture. They didn't pass along their parents' culture. So. It's like my culture is partially Cuban partially American and that. 18:29.53 Raúl Is my culture that is what I am passing along I may not do a great job of it. But that is what is mine to pass if I try to pass along my parents' culture. It's it's going to be inauthentic. You know it's like I read this about Cuba or something. 18:46.26 Simón Yeah, well and I mean that's how culture works right? is it's It's kind of ah things change and and combine and mix with other influences and that's how it it evolves you know we don't really have these these like Unbroken chains. Um. 19:02.88 Simón But yeah I mean I I feel for you. You know my my mom will sometimes if we're talking about culture or something she'll go well, you know don't forget like you know, don't don't forget the irish part or something or you know, ah she'll she'll kind of make a you know a. Comment about you know, don't don't forget this part of of you know your heritage your inheritance. Um, but yeah I mean in in in the United States you got to pretty heavily um, emphasize anything that isn't you know european culture. If you want any hope of of balancing it out that way. 19:43.70 Jala Yeah, yeah, so when I was writing the notes for this one of the first things that I thought of was the fact that as you live and grow like your culture is going to change and the culture that you pass along is going to change and it isn't. And that's that's actually the the fact that there isn't like this unbroken chain of culture pass along. It's kind of actually something that indigenous folks are really dealing with and struggling with right now very hard because you know, um, some of Dave's family his brothers and sisters and everything they are. And including Dave um, they all have indigenous blood and some of his brothers and sisters are like registered and can live on the reservation and all of that and um, like the way that things are if they marry anyone who is any less. Indigenous than they are then those children no longer will be qualified to count as you know because you have to register if you are an indigenous person you have to register your blood with the state with the the government. In order to get benefits and everything and the whole point of that is that the government doesn't want to pay for stuff for indigenous folks and so you know they know that after a certain number of generations. There will no longer be a strong but bloodline available of cure indigenous blood anymore. 21:15.53 Jala So Ah, anyway, so like that that failure to pass along the culture exactly is meaning that a lot of indigenous languages and things like that are just disappearing because the last of the speakers are going away like they're passing on. And no one has learned the language or what they have learned is so piecemeal you know so that's actually a struggle for a large group of people in the Us. So. 21:43.81 Raúl Yeah, and I I know I said that confidently but I it's something that I'm basically trying to convince myself of in order to assuage the guilt. 21:56.81 Jala Well so the thing is is you know you've already said it and I know it's It's hard because especially if you have parents who are immigrants. They are very much about preserving their original culture and this that and the other but you'd said in the last episode role. You were like well how long yes I I feel like I need to pass that on but how long should I want my you know. My child and then you know his children or whatever to be foreigners in their home and that's an important point. 22:39.31 Raúl Um, it's you know they they call it a melting pot. They don't call it a stew you know, um and it's it's I mean it's one of those things where there are advantages and disadvantages to both like people who. 22:56.34 Raúl Are forced to assimilate or assimilate quick more quickly than I would guess would be advisable have their own issues people who refuse to assimilate. Also they open themselves up to. Other issues. So It's one of those like you got to pick your poison. 23:20.17 Simón Yeah, yeah, it's it's complex I mean I I like the older I get it. It only gets more complex not less. Um, because yeah, you're right I mean on the 1 hand. Yeah you want you want to preserve things. But i. It can also be um, it can be like a straightjacket. You know it can be a limiting box. Um, if things are emphasized that you know it needs to be just so or you know like it's also really easy for people to um. Kind of idealize or just focus on certain aspects of a culture and leave out the ugly parts. Um, you know that where they might be much better off here. You know as far as ah, you know, different kinds of discrimination or you know. Religious ah limitations or whatever and I yeah like it's if I'm stumbling on it. It's just because I have so many thoughts about it. But yeah it it really can be um, just. 24:34.17 Simón A weird distorted version of it. 24:39.23 Jala So something that I was thinking about when we were talking or when Raúl was mentioning melting pot is the fact that my culture and Dave's culture and probably a lot of people's culture ah is not. Exclusive to like the bloodlines that you have in your body and the place that you are born like Dave grew up and had a lot of korean friends and then ended up going into east asian studies and. Um, you know like was really deep into that culture for a long time. So some of the ways in which he speaks unless he is trying to edit himself to make himself sound american um include constructions from the korean language and there's certain. Tendencies that he has or ways of thinking that are you know basically adopted from being around a bunch of korean people and being you know, immersed in that culture and everything and so. You know and the same can be said for me like you know you both know that I do a number of different things I have a large swath of friends from various walks of life. So like my different cultural inputs are just so many that a lot of people. 26:00.70 Jala When they meet me. They don't actually have any idea where the hell I'm from they know that I sound like I'm from America that I'm from the south because I have a droll. They don't know anything about like any of the rest of it because my sensibilities and different behaviors and um. You know ways of dressing and other different aspects of my personality just don't mesh with any of their expectations because um, both Dave and I are definitely melting pot children. You know so Raúl. 26:32.96 Raúl Um, yeah I mean there's there's stuff that I'm intentionally not passing along because I don't think it's a good thing to be passed along and you know that's just my own value judgment. But I mean just. I Hesitate to say dumb. But let's say ignorant stuff like um Cuban people will lay down female babies face down as opposed to on their back because they don't want to inhibit the baby's butt growth. 27:09.31 Raúl Exactly. 27:11.91 Simón I thought you were going to say like my cheesemo because that's like 1 of the things that comes up for me, but that is ah that's something. 27:13.61 Raúl I mean it it ties in. 27:20.60 Jala I Can tell you that neither my sister nor I were laid face down just just half why eye. Um I am a month and my butt my bug grew just fine. 27:25.80 Raúl And that might be a more recent thing I learned I learned that one from my first wife. 27:35.62 Jala Anybody can Google a picture of me and I will guarantee you 80% 80% 80% of my body mass is in my butt. Okay, so anyway. 27:37.32 Simón Yeah I was I was ah I was holding back from telling everyone to just go go check out the in stuff. But yeah. 27:48.77 Raúl I But that actually reminds me um, ah, another thing that is kind of a complicating factor is that we're not the only ones passing along our culture to our kids. Both of our partners have different cultures. Than ours. Um, so they're also doing the same thing and sometimes it comes into conflict. 28:11.62 Jala Yeah, it's kind of like in my family my parents' case my mom's cultures were completely quelched under the boot of Cuban culture. So That's why when people ask me what I am most of the time you know I just am Cuban. You know like Cuban American or whatever my dad was Cuban You know that kind of a thing and I just I leave it at that like if I start getting specific then I'll I'll add all the rest of it in there but like I don't have enough of those cultures to really identify with them as well. 28:46.33 Simón And yeah, raoul you were you had that line about um, a melting pot rather than a stew and you know I I know that I at some point kind of made a choice to identify myself more with my father's side. Um, but I think for so many people here in the states with European Ancestry you know someone might say german or irish or something but you know they they don't know when that happened or how that happened or. You know much of anything and including myself like from my mom's side. You know I knew my great aunts and uncles I knew like a state that a lot of them were from and that's kind of it and until I went. Digging a little more I was like well like when did they come over like did they come over and you know 1850 or was it like the mayflower and and you get to that point where it's it's just we started off the episode with the big quote unquote you know, normal right um. Where it just becomes a default and I think you know even more than like 1 being like 1 culture being more important than the other or anything. It's just having a distinct culture rather than ah yeah, just kind of a. 30:16.63 Simón Indistinct ah blend and. 30:18.20 Jala Yeah, see in the case of my mom. She like her parents were born here, but my great-grandparents came from their respective countries. So although it is a few generations back. We still have like somebody on that side of those sides of the family. 30:36.80 Jala Ah, did the um, whole family tree and all of that stuff and there's still family in the the original countries and things like that. But I have no idea about any of that Stuff. Do I know about our family that's Cuban you know yes I know all about where all of those people are from but I don't know. Any of this stuff on my mom's side. It's not that it merged in and and was super melded together so much as it just like wasn't passed on it like there wasn't any room for it in our household because my dad was just super super Cuban and you know like pushing the Cuban Agenda you know. So. 31:17.37 Raúl Um, in in my home or my current home not where I grew up my my partner is she came from ah another country as a young girl but she remembers her time there. So her She has a much. Better connection and whenever her she's with her parents or any of her family members. All they do is they talk about you know stuff from their culture. So I feel like my son has a much stronger connection to that Culture. So I'm kind of failing there. Um, and it. 31:56.48 Raúl Like um, just little things like for cubans a kite is called a papalote for people from her country. It's called a Papa Gallo and you know she tends to win out on most of these. Things just because they're the ones that are always engaging with their culture. My parents have been here for going on 50 or sixty years now so even their connection to their culture is not quite as strong. Although I refuse to lose on the kite thing because papa guyos sounds dumb. 32:33.21 Jala Well I did want to say though that um part of that too is just not up to you as to what aspects of what culture your child is going to decide that they want to side with you know, like um, ah in the green room we were talking about it. You know, just when we were leading up to this episode and I was like you know like I never had that oh I I can't stand the the immigrant family you know like the immigrant side of the family like the cuban family I never had that thing. Ah if anything I I identified with that. So strongly that there wasn't really room for me to say because like. Especially when you're a kid and you're trying to figure out your identity. What happens is you want to be a thing you don't want to have to be complicated. You want a single answer so when somebody says to you you know like what are you or who are you or whatever you can say really easily what it is that you are and move on down the road. And when you have a complicated answer that makes you feel like a weirdo and so yeah and Rahu like you didn't have to deal with that so much because like you know you are cuban and you know your parents are both from Cuba but like. 33:32.44 Simón Yeah, there's There's not a lot of room for nuance on the school bus right? It's just kind of. 33:47.22 Jala You know that for me and for Simóne I'm sure ah growing up and having multiple cultures like 1 parent from you know with one one background and 1 parent with a different background. It makes it hard to be like oh I I honor all of the things and like I did get there at some point. But by then you know it's like well all of these years of time I never got like I didn't have the opportunity to learn all of this stuff or be exposed to these cultures and you know now it's like I don't have enough time a lot of times to just dig into that kind of stuff unless I quit. Casting. Do it other stuff to try to find all that out. But I'm not having kids so I don't know that it necessarily makes a giant impact at this point in my life. You know. 34:36.31 Simón Yeah, well that that's that's interesting and I I think um, you know Jalla and in the in the case of your family and my family like being in the United States I think they're. It is just kind of like I I don't want this to to sound silly but it's probably going to ah that when I was growing up like of course I knew my father's culture and I identified with it. But I also kind of like got along with anyone else who was a minority because it was like in my environment it was like whiteness or other you know, um, and so and and there's just kind of that like violence of um. 35:26.43 Simón Just like how strictly whiteness was like enforced or evaluated um and so it it made the choice of kind of like which culture I felt affiliated with a lot easier and and became so tied into politics and stuff and then I think it's like as an adult that. 35:45.21 Simón You know I was able to learn more about my mother's side of the family and some of the nuances of of that rather than like yeah yeah, you guys are nice people but you know I Ah I don't want to be lumped in. But. 35:59.60 Jala In my case too like something that I was thinking about when you brought up minorities is the fact that both of us have more or less it boils down to a white side and a minority side. Well if you want to look at like the bigger you know the bigger Picture. You can identify with the white side but then like all of the ways in which you are different from that you know are going to stick out even more and not only that. But. Then you're more or less like on the Oppressor's side you know and like all the the people that you know that are ah minorities including like your own parent that is a minority are are the ones that are downtrodden by these folks that you chose to identify with that's kind of a rough spot to be in and I think that's kind of. Probably part of the reason why I ended up identifying more with the Cuban side is just because it's like I know that yes I am a white passing Cuban but like still being a Cuban is a little bit different than being you know, just like a European american. 37:05.47 Raúl Yeah, how how we identify is 1 thing but how others identify us is arguably more important at least for our day-to-day experience and um, I'm more or less. White passing like jalla and it was it was interesting. Growing up where I grew up because it's almost like ah it's going to sound like you know oh I don't see race but like I growing up it was more. 37:42.00 Raúl Countries you know, like like oh that's my friend. You know he's from Peru or whatever and I had a moment where somebody asked me something and said oh your your black friend I'm like I have no idea who you're talking about. Like yeah, he looks like this I forgot I think his name starts with an e or something and I was like oh he's he's dominican. He's not black and then like I realize like oh yeah I guess you know if you don't know him you would look at him and think well that's a black person like nobody looks at Miles Morales and thinks oh there's ah, a latino superhero. 38:20.30 Simón Yeah, that I yeah, a lot of good points in there Raúl because I I think ah sorry I lost my train and thought for a second there? Um, yeah so I think the way the way that others perceive you is. Important and I think for me I'm I'm at that point where um I am visibly not white but ah, people can't necessarily pinpoint my race right away you know like. Like ah yeah, if if you're in a city like you know, New York or Chicago or Miami or something like that. Um, you know people like if I if I see if I pass an indian family on the street like they don't think I'm indian you know, but ah. You know the the average resident here might not know the difference and and I think yeah, the way that others treat you or you know perceive you absolutely plays into which side you kind of affiliate yourself with because like you said jalla it's. You know if if there's that feeling of of oppression or um, kind of like the enforcement of you know, cultural supremacy or whatever. Then yeah, if you're like you know? Yeah I I don't care if I can be on that team I don't like what that team's doing you know. 39:48.59 Simón Um, but yeah it is I mean Raúl I'm sure that's a very different experience to have. Um, yeah, first off to 2 cultures where you know? Yeah, they're they're both from latin America and it's just kind of different. Ah. 40:05.17 Simón Obviously still significantly different but it's not kind of you know versus the whole history of colonization or whatever. Um, but yeah I mean people I know from from really really diverse cities. Yeah, it's like well no like he's that dude's Haitian that dude's Ethiopian you know that dude's dominican. Um, it's not just like hey what color are you? You know it's like no no, no like you know the Dominicans don't mess with you know this other country. It doesn't matter what language they Speak. It's just different right. 40:36.92 Raúl But with with that said, if if I go to New York I automatically become Puerto rican. 40:44.50 Jala Yeah, no, don't choke there. But um, one thing that I wanted to add to talking about the race stuff and how people perceive you I've mentioned it I think on the. 40:45.98 Simón Ah, man that. 40:58.44 Jala Last episode the 1 about being a first -generation american but my white family were racist against my sister and I for being cuban so we were already identified by our white family as not being. White and so like I'm sure that played a part as well now like they weren't not everybody on that side of the family was like that it was my grandparents very specifically and to a lesser degree 1 aunt and uncle. Um, but. Like none of the other people in the family. The extended family seem to give a rat's ass. But um, these people who were very close to us like literally my grandparents lived down the street from me for a large portion of my life and the aunt and uncle for the first eight years of my life lived next door to us. So um. And now they still live like within a few miles and they've calmed down a bit over time and both of my grandparents have passed away at this time so like no longer an issue but for a very long time I was kind of already put into the cuban box by my own family on my mom's side and so. Like I had to deal with racism within my own family. Let alone from without so I didn't want to identify with those people because I didn't want to you know, put myself in with the same lot of people who were sitting here treating you know a little kid like that. 42:30.35 Raúl And do you think that affected other areas of your life like like I don't know I can imagine having to deal with that at home every day making it. 42:47.63 Raúl Part of the water you breathe can't be good for your mental health that I did I just say water you breathe all right. 42:51.47 Jala Um, I yes you did but that's okay, well we'll go with it I mean I lived in Florida for so long that I I basically was in the water all the time we can go with that. 43:03.93 Simón Yeah, well plus plus there's that ah name or movie. So I think rolls covers is blown. He's actually to no schwar that right? So yeah I knew you sounded hunky. 43:12.12 Raúl Um, ah man how do you guys know. 43:17.57 Jala Um, okay, so anyway, ah yeah, so um, I was a very like I've always been since I was. First a very small baby I've always been a very happy person I was a happy child. Um I was a happy Baby. My mom tells me that I was very easy to take care of I just wanted a little bit of attention and then that was it and I was good and not even labor was hard I kind of just was a premature and I just came out. And I was ready. So um, historically like yes I suffer depression like anybody else does in Bouts but I don't have like a chronic state of depression or anxiety or anything like that. Um, if anything. It kind of fostered that sensation of learning by observing other people and then realizing what I didn't want to do I Also did this a lot with my sister who is older than me whenever she made a mistake I would see what she did I would see what my parents were doing and what their decisions were as parents and. In their life and I would see what my sister was doing when she would bang her head against the wall. You know, um, but rather than walking around the wall. You know?? Ah and I was like I don't want to do that and I started to learn by observation from a very very early age probably from just. 44:40.59 Jala How I took everything and I didn't want to be like that and so like when I was growing up I was always around a bunch of different people of various walks of life and so that's where I was more comfortable and I couldn't relate to people who were from like a monoculture. And that seemed to be the way that a lot of the white people that were around me were they were all from like a monoculture. You know my mom's family lived up in Minnesota and I don't know what it's like now but in the area where she grew up in everything. It was all white people. So. They they were very much insulated in a monoculture and I was not and so I just I didn't have anything to do with that and again I didn't want to be hateful like they were I didn't want to pass that feeling on to anybody else. So Simóne. 45:33.50 Simón Yeah, well I'm I'm glad that it seems like instead of internalizing all of that it was more like a like a negative example like okay, well that's that's what I don't want to be in or that's not how I want to handle it. Um, it's good for you. But ah. I don't know exactly where this fits in but a point that was was in my head as we were talking about kind of that experience of like kind of like racialization you know or or being ah, kind of forced into you know, ah a pretty obvious choice by your environment. Is I have 2 siblings you know I have one 1 older 1 younger and um, you know they it's not monolithic like they they didn't have the same experience of it as me, you know I think we had some common experiences but um. 46:25.96 Simón You know I I don't know that it ah has cemented itself in the in the same way or or maybe like for me I think it was really explicitly tied ended up very explicitly tied to um, my political views which then led to. You know, kind of the the art and subculture stuff I got involved in and and it all became very enmeshed in that. Um and I I think for my my siblings they were I guess for lack of a better word a little more like mainstream you know? ah. 47:04.63 Simón And yeah I I don't know I can't really articulate it that well because we've we've talked about having some similar experiences but I think some people. Um, yeah, just fall in with people where it's It's not as much of an issue or they just feel more comfortable or or whatever. 47:24.56 Simón Um, but it can absolutely vary across Siblings or cousins or what have you. 47:27.82 Raúl Do your siblings identify differently than you all right. 47:33.52 Simón Ah, no I mean I think of somebody else that you know they'd still say you know like oh yeah, I'm mexican-americanmydad'sfromthisplaceandallthatstuff. um and and we enjoy some of the same cultural things. But I think i'm. Maybe a little more vehement about some stuff I guess. 47:55.00 Jala Yeah,, that's a very good point because my sister and I and some of it comes down to just how people internalize things or don't um, like talking about the racism within my own family. For example, um I internalize that very differently. Than how my sister did and just overall I am surprise Surprise a very open person about myself. My sister is very private. So um, you know, just the way that each individual person is and how that person's personality develops over time. Is going to influence how they take and how they how they internalize and externalize their culture. Whatever culture. It is that they are adopting so that makes a big big difference. 48:46.18 Simón Yeah, um, Raoul you you were asking how how my siblings identify and and if it differs from mine and I think the way they identify doesn't differ but it made me think you know my my sister is married um, she has 3 children. Um, and her husband is white. You know his family is like german american um, and her kids are well yeah I guess so my my spouse is african american um. And so you know again, our child is is regardless of anything cultural. We did you know is visibly like you know, not white. Um, but for my sister you know her children. Um, you know they they know and love my father and you know they. They still have cultural stuff at home. Um, but it yeah, they're going to have a different experience because I mean they are all white passing I mean 2 of them in particular are like very very white. You know, um, and. 49:58.75 Simón Yeah, that's that's I feel like that's going to um, just lead to some not not like nothing bad but just different and interesting kind of situations. Um. 50:11.22 Jala In a lot of ways for me I kind of feel like seeing the way that each different person interprets and moves forward with whatever pieces of culture they take or you know take from their parents or from their home life growing up or whatever. That's kind of like where the magic happens to me because everybody's perception of reality is going to be different as Well. If you want to get into some esoteric shit I am all about that and so you know everybody's everybody's um, way of being. Whatever they are Cuban or Mexican-american or what have you is going to be unique. 51:00.38 Raúl Something that um, happened like my my child is um, basically white passing and we only we spoke exclusively spanish to him. 51:18.44 Raúl Ah, basically until now and this actually like it kind of broke my heart but one day when I picked them up from Kindergarten He asked me if we could go and live in a country where everybody spoke spanish. 51:37.23 Raúl Because it's like man you know I'm trying to I'm trying to fix basically like the problem I had growing up and I'm like I'm fucking up my kid in a totally different way. 51:53.39 Simón That's heavy man. Yeah I mean I from the outside I mean I'll go ahead and and speak for Jala too I think you're probably not fucking up your kid but that it that is hard right? that like you you want to reinforce this part and then there's a pining there. 52:11.60 Simón You know like oh yeah, let's go where everyone's like this. Um yeah and I imagine you know that's it's hard to I mean my my child is younger than yours. Um. 52:13.59 Raúl And now of course he just wants to speak english. 52:29.33 Simón But of course we all evolve a lot and go back and forth throughout life. So who knows where that pendulum will stop moving. You know. 52:33.55 Jala And and yeah and that's the thing is that another thing you have to think about is that you're going to remember that instant for the rest of your life. Your kid is not going to remember that instant for the rest of their life that kid is going to swing back and Forth. Probably. Most people tend to it seems to be swing back and forth about their culture before settling on wherever they're going to land and you know like not everybody has like this this fully realized you know, no I'm settled in this one particular Spot. You know, kind of. 53:10.79 Jala Feeling about it and you know it's going to be like your whole life. You're goingnna be sitting here going man I wish I would have done more to pass on Michael you're gonna be doing that your entire entire life and that's because like eventually when your kid gets older and is an adult and is then becomes. Curious and is our age and is doing a podcast or whatever the true you know whole equivalent is at that point you know there you go ah you know then they'll be interested in all this stuff just like you were about stuff with your own parents when you asked them about stuff for the episode that we did last. 53:34.34 Raúl A holocast. 53:47.76 Raúl I mean I I knew I was going to mess him up somehow I just didn't expect it to happen so early because I mean looking around I don't know a single adult that's not messed up somehow so figured it was going to happen. 54:04.87 Simón Hey if you figure out how to raise a child perfectly. Um I think you're probably going to be a billionaire so just remember remember us little people you get there. Ah. 54:10.71 Jala Um, yeah, no joke. 54:13.12 Raúl Um, you I think you think there's a lot more money in child care than there actually is. 54:19.39 Simón Yeah,, that's that's your shout out to American priorities. You guys killing it? Um, yeah, Ah, you know there's there's a phrase that was kind of going through my head when you talked about you know your kid wanting to be in like a Spanish speaking country. That Um, there's that saying of like you can't go home again right? like you know if you if you leave home you you can go back to that to that home. But it's different than the place is different. The people that are different and you are different when you return to it and I think. 54:53.96 Simón In the case of children of you know first or second -generation immigrants. Um, it can be even more kind of complicated because I've you know I've been to where my father is from ah you know multiple times. But you know I have my own and my own perception of of you know aspects of that that I identify with or I don't identify with um and you know then that gets filtered down to the kid and ah I guess. 55:32.61 Simón But I'm trying I'm I'm struggling to communicate it clearly. But just that ah essentially um I I know for myself I've found myself in a place before where I you know I'm I'm fascinated by the history. Of of Mexico and about learning by my ancestors and cultural things and all this stuff. Um, but I also realized the ways that you know I'm focusing on those things in a way that someone born and raised. And this area um might not you know or that ah it's funny like going out to l a or something and like the mexican-american culture there where you know people might be 2 or 3 generations in um, where it's like totally its own thing. You know that still is very people are like Rep Mexico really hard right? but then like and that's kind of like the default people are like oh mexican-american oh like you know l a chicano like ah the homies dolls you get out of the little quarter machine on your way out of toys r us right? like that. 56:49.25 Simón That kind of stuff. Um, which is cool but it's it is also like you know like my dad and my uncles and aunts and cousins. You know like in Mexico like they don't vibe. You know like that doesn't represent them at all and so you get this whole? Ah yeah, it just can mean. Really different things to to different people and. 57:12.35 Raúl For for our younger listeners toys or us was a toy company that had ah um. 57:20.81 Simón To everyone to everyone listening in 10 years ah shops were a place where physical goods were stored and you could look at them before ah they went to your house. But. 57:28.93 Raúl Yeah, but um to to what you were saying about that I've I've never been to Cuba I honestly kind of don't have any desire to go there at least until it's been free for a while which. May not even happen in my lifetime but I like you know you were saying you can never go home again. But I don't need to go home. Cuba is not my home Miami is my home like my parents could wax poetic about Cuba you know or the cuba that was and how. You know it was beautiful and this and that and the other but I could do the same of Miami you know I could tell I could tell I could talk about the history of the city. How it started where it grew. You know this street is named after this person. Ah this neighborhood used to be. 58:23.22 Raúl You know X Y Z and then it became this because of X Y like it's almost like like my culture is more Miamiian than Cuban and they're similar but they're very distinct. 58:42.30 Simón Yeah I think that that makes sense and and I guess to amend what I was saying about you can't go home again. I was like in my case. Yeah, it's it's um, like yeah Mexico was never home in the first place right? like there I I have. Have positive experiences there but I I think yeah, ultimately we end up. Um, we have our life experiences and that's what we pass on. Um, and yeah I I think we can have. Kind of a complicated relationship with that like you know for for Java or I it sounds like we kind of had more of the ah you know like the the white or minority kind of set up the antagonism. Um, but. Yeah, ultimately, it's it's I don't know I I guess yeah like that that was never home in the first place but it is it is still part of us in a way or at least the the culture that has trickled down is is part of us. 59:46.46 Jala So for me like rolls saying oh Miami is home for me and everything and you know I lived in slash around I'm not even sure Miami. Ah, for some number of years and I also have lived here in Houston but we also lived like a few different places. So interestingly although yes, I'm definitely southern us I don't really identify with a place so much like I don't feel like. Houston quote unquote fits my my personality you know like who I am as a person at all. Um Miami is closer to that. But at the same time I haven't been there in so long that like I can't claim that. As my quote unquote home you know and there's not like a time that I can foresee me being able to go back there and just like live there. So um that I have the interesting kind of situation and Dave also. Faces the same thing where he's also the same kind of way where he's just he moved around a lot when he was younger and so neither one of us feel like we have like a home we kind of feel like we're of the world more than we are of a place and so neither one of us has like a rooted feeling. 01:01:08.20 Jala So That's like a ah different thing for us like if we were to you know were able to have kids and did have kids then that would be an interesting experience because we don't have like our own very strong rooted culture to Present. We have like the mishmashes that we kind of. Um, gathered up from everything around us you know because both of us are kind of like sponges and we just kind of like soak up everything. So. 01:01:35.14 Simón Yeah, so that kind of comes from within rather than wherever you happen to find yourself. 01:01:41.74 Jala Um, yep, yep! So so ah Simóne I going to my notes and actually grabbing that document for a little bit now. Um. Rol and I had talked a little bit about how our parents did or did not pass on their culture. But how did your parents pass on or not pass on their culture to you. 01:02:07.23 Simón That's a good question. Um, yeah, so I mean my mom's side. It's kind of easy because you know she's like yeah you know white. European heritage which is kind of the the cultural default here and and you know all of her ancestors had been here long enough that it there's no original like country left or anything. It's just kind of american from this region. Um. For my father. Um, yeah I mean well so my I mean my mother ah lived in Mexico with my father. You know the first several years in their marriage and and that's where they met and everything so you know she's fluent. She she has experienced all of that. But yeah, so they they would. You know, a lot of music which I'm I'm a musician I love like I'm an obsessive music collector and listener. Um, but music food for sure. Um, hanging out with other families. Ah you know from spanish-speaking countries and stuff. Um. 01:03:18.57 Simón So those those were all big. Um, but unlike you know somewhere like Miami or a lot of places in like California it wasn't just kind of around you know it wasn't like oh well, we're out on the boardwalk and there were people doing folk dances or something you know? Um, but. I'd say those were really the big things and then ah we learned some spanish but never never like enough to really be fluently speaking it which this is something that has really, ah. Kind of reverberated through my life. Um, because my understanding from talking with my parents about it. Um is that at the time you know like we know this to not be true now. But you know there are the concerns about ah like bilingual kids. Um. You know the the way they learn being affected or whatever but also just in our case, it was like there was there was no one to really like practice with on a daily or weekly basis outside of my parents. Um, and. Yeah, so I still heard a good deal of spanish I always had a lot of vocab and everything but actually speaking fluently and confidently um and understanding everything we never really got there and then um, yeah I mean to be frank. It's it's been something that um. 01:04:49.68 Simón I Got fairly fluent you know in schooling and then I'm kind of working my way back there now. Um, because I I want to be able to you know, give my daughter that opportunity. But it's it's actually been something that um throughout my life then when I was. 01:05:06.50 Simón Around people you know with a similar heritage. Um, it caused a lot of anxiety or um, stress or whatever just from like expectations about oh well, you know? yeah basically like oh I guess you aren't the real deal then. 01:05:25.43 Jala Well, there's that and then there's also you know and I had mentioned to Raúl on the last episode I was like yeah, it's nice to hear somebody speaking with a cuban accent and you know there's things. Um, you know like Raúl will say that oh well. 01:05:42.13 Jala He doesn't speak Spanish Well enough you know as well as you would like or something and I'm like you don't even want to know about my Spanish as somebody who's half you know and my mom doesn't speak Spanish She understands it so we didn't speak it in the house all the time we spoke little bits here and there. So. 01:06:00.74 Jala You don't even want to know about mine sorry to interrupt your your thing um did you have further on that Simón. 01:06:01.73 Raúl Um, that there. 01:06:07.30 Simón Oh I I mean just yeah I guess just the the bottom line from that would be that definitely put me in a place where I knew how much of that culture I carried with me, you know from growing up and how. 01:06:26.18 Simón How much I valued it um and and felt connected ah to that origin. But yeah, that didn't always line up with I mean not, we've talked a lot about kind of like the white ah side of things but also from people you know who. Are you know, have a similar background then I had that feeling of they're like oh so who's this Guy. You know that's. 01:06:53.13 Raúl There There is a name for for this phenomenon. That's that's how common it is where you can understand a language or maybe you're not fluent in it but you kind of sort of like you can communicate in it because. 01:07:12.32 Raúl It's your parents' language It's referred to as a heritage language and it's it's basically a source of shame for all the people who have it myself included but it really shouldn't be because it's it's incredibly. Common. Um, and one of the things that if once you I don't know if you already are. But if you start speaking spanish to your daughter. 1 of the things that will frustrate you because it frustrates me is that my spanish is is. It's all right? It's like a 7 out of 10. 01:07:50.61 Raúl Maybe an 8 but I can't get across very nuanced nuanced concepts. So. It's like I have to kind of like talk around what I want to say or I'll just I'll say the 1 word I can't figure out in english and nick. Going because it's like I want to be able to communicate effectively with my kid. But then I'm effectively teaching him spanglish rather than spanish which is its own limiting thing but that is it's it's. 01:08:28.22 Raúl Very like like I can't overemphasize how common heritage languages and shame over heritage languages is like I spent my entire life being told my spanish wasn't good enough. The 1 time. 01:08:43.95 Raúl I went somewhere and people were delighted with my spanish was when I went to Spain they were like wow this american speaks amazing spanish. 01:08:49.91 Simón That's funny. That's funny. Yeah I that um yeah I think it is I mean definitely like shame is the right word for it and I think um, yeah, honestly like I I wasn't. Like you know I'm I'm a smart guy I Know how to study like it's not that I could like was incapable of learning the language is that there's There's so much like tied up with it. There was like so much emotional charge to It. You know that until I was kind of doing some more work on myself. You know and. Meditating and thinking about you know what are things that really like are unresolved or like cosmi anxiety that like eventually kind of came around to the point where I was like okay I can just this is a thing I can learn and I don't have to like flagellate myself over you know. 01:09:43.76 Simón How it was because I have a choice now but or what you're saying about the whole spanglish thing. Yeah, it's hard because like my kid is is like 4 years old you know um and and we got her in some ah and a spanish class I was taking her to which was cool and and she's um, she's. Just been reading for like a few months and um, she's really interested in spanish and is is able to like read some things in spanish as well as english which has been cool so she seems to be like grabbing onto it. But you know I can tell her a lot of words and give her these basic sentences. But i. Have that feeling too of and like my wife um you know isn't like fluent in spanish but has a decent amount of schooling and stuff and we're in that spot where like we're brushing up because yeah, we don't we don't want to teach her like weird. Ah you know, half remembered spanish to where. 01:10:39.20 Simón She she tried well like ah there was a you know a kid. Ah, who's like extremely fluent in Spanish his household. That's all they speak you know where I'm I'm imagining like yeah, what you know you meet that kid and out comes the um. 01:10:57.16 Simón The blender version of of spanish for mom and dad. But you know I I think as with most things with parenting. Ah if you like can step back for a moment like it doesn't have to be perfect. It does have to be you know a good and thoughtful effort right? But um, yeah, that. It's it's like I'm I do feel kind of behind the eight ball because I you know ideally I would have been like perfectly fluent and confident and you know ah hadn't have a curriculum ready to go or something by the time my my kid was born but you know it's. The the point is I don't want to pass on the same situation to my kid. You know of ah being set up for shame and and ultimately she can decide how much or the the ways in which she engages with it. But I don't want her to be on the spot where she. 01:11:52.82 Simón Feels like she has to like retreat from it or she's stuck and. 01:11:56.60 Raúl Yeah, um I I guess I did learn from Antonio in our last episode because I spent a lot of words saying something that was very simple that I think you you need to hear is like no matter how how good or how bad your spanish is. It's good enough. 01:12:14.85 Simón So true. 01:12:18.48 Raúl And I mean if go ahead like and if if ah if you're if you need to like I spoke with my mom for years. My Mom Understood English She didn't speak spanish. I'm sorry she didn't speak English she understood English so I would speak to her in English and she would reply to me in Spanish for years I mean I was I was an adult didn't even realize I was doing it until like was actually during my first marriage. 01:12:54.81 Raúl Like it broke my ex-wife's brain because she couldn't she couldn't switch between languages enough and I didn't I was doing it subconsciously and that even just that will help your kid to maintain whatever they have like and if they don't become fluent. It's Fine. You know they understand. 01:13:17.97 Simón Yeah, totally And and I think um I'm coming from a place where I'm very conscious of the yeah, all the weird negative ah things that can come with it and then how you can internalize that and. 01:13:35.67 Simón Definitely not going to have have that coming from me and I'll be able to you know speak with her about it and. 01:13:40.45 Jala Yeah I was going to say like the main thing that you want to do is try to not pass that anxiety like you pass Whatever language you can and if your kiddo ends up teaching you better Spanish Great! great. Let them do that and then take pride in the fact that your kiddo has gotten to that place but don't pass on the anxiety. Don't don't give the negative feedback that you know don't don't do the self-flagellation thing in front of your kiddo because then that that Kiddo is going to pick up on that and. 01:14:15.16 Simón Oh yeah, totally and I mean that's that's been ah a lesson I've I've ah a big takeaway from a lot of things with you know my my childhood ah have been you know like yeah if you just if you just talk about it. 01:14:32.00 Simón Right? Like ah that can dissipate so much of the anxiety of just knowing it's It's ah it's just not a big deal. You know and and you can just lay stuff out. It doesn't have time to ah you know to fester. 01:14:50.65 Jala Yeah, so 1 thing that um I wanted to ask is what would either of you have preferred that your parents would have done. To pass on their culture like what what would you have preferred that your parents do um to improve your absorption of the cultures that you know your families came from Raúl you first. 01:15:21.55 Raúl Um, I think they they did their their best and if if they had done more I'm not sure I would have been receptive to it anyway. Um that while while we were talking I Just kind of unlocked the memory. 01:15:38.75 Raúl when when I was younger there used to be something called Lafetia that was muipus like the the fair the um, the municipality fair where people from all like they would meet up at the. 01:15:57.93 Raúl But at the time was the flaggler dog track and it would it would be like a carnival like ah, a county fair or something where they would have boots set up for each small town each county and they would all like bring their their food or you know something from there. From their city and you know just share it and I was too young to really appreciate it and then my parents got divorced and we never went back so that that was something that if it had been maintained. Might have might have helped but other than that I mean I I was I was kind of a little shit. 01:16:48.60 Simón The origin story of of many interesting people. Um, yeah I I mean for me I think um yeah I I I would have appreciated. Um, you know if they. 01:17:03.51 Simón It just went ahead and and you know spoke spanish in the house more and just you know said screw it. You know as far as worrying about assimilation as much. Um, but I think honestly for me because of the particular environment I was in which was just like overwhelmingly white. Um, it probably would have helped if so I guess the thing is my mom is you know she's someone who like got into an interracial marriage and. Like the early to mid eighty well the early 80 s you know, um with someone from another country in a conservative city you know and and has has faced. Um you know discrimination and all that kind of stuff so like she has that but at the same time kind of has the um. You know I don't see not I don't see race but you know just ah, just a very different and I think most of us would consider kind of outdated conception of it. Um, or you know idea of it. So um I think I would've just appreciated if there was just kind of less. 01:18:19.15 Simón I Guess less like resistance. Um because I mean she was able to teach me plenty and and tell me about her experiences you know of of Mexican culture and stuff but um, not worrying so much about like balancing things out you know because I think what she. Couldn't really realize is that like well every day I'm completely immersed in like just you know, kind of down the middle American whiteness from this region. You know, um, and and that to support me and kind of ah. 01:18:56.82 Simón Give me the the strength and confidence I needed in that environment to you know, lean lean into the other side a little more probably at home. Um, so I I don't know if that sounded rambly but I guess just. Because I was in an environment where I think it it to me. It felt more Antagonistic. You know outside of my own home. Um I know go ahead. Row roll. 01:19:22.56 Raúl And you're you sorry go and you're going to learn the dominant culture. Regardless just by living in it. 01:19:32.81 Simón Yes, precisely. Yes, so like um, you know my wife is African-american and like for me like something that really I mean of course you know her personality and humor and all that stuff but like. As far as compatibility as partners and and as someone I might raise a kid with um, having someone who also like who had had a similar experience. You know of I can't escape what's outside you know so I want someone who. Kind of hold me down and like support me about you know those other parts that are important and maybe don't get nurtured out there. Um, and so that's someone that I felt confident. You know about the possibility of raising a child with because I was like I you know I I don't want to? ah. You know pass on the sins of the father right? you know or or the the circumstances I grew up in um and so in our home you know I We really pass on both cultures. Um a lot and not in a you know. Open your book to page 30 way but just we celebrate all of that within our home and speak about our families and our ancestors and all that stuff kind of as much as we can and then she's able to take that out into the world with her because it's you know that that has been. 01:21:03.83 Simón Nurtured inside of her. Um, and so it doesn't matter if her environment um always mirrors that if that makes sense. 01:21:16.50 Jala Well for me I wish that my dad would have spoken spanish more when I was at home. Um, and so like I think that's probably for a lot of people who are half of 1 thing and. You know who don't ah have both parents you know with with a common kind of language or whatever. Um I think that's probably a common experience where they just kind of later on maybe not in the moment but later on they wish oh I wish my parents would have. You know spoken the language more to me or whatever of course my mom doesn't speak spanish so you know it would have to be just like 1 on 1 time with my dad but my dad I will be very you know Frank with you is not a very good teacher. So um, he wouldn't have the patience to really teach me but like. You know we didn't really have the resources for me to go and just um, be in like classes extra classes and stuff to you know, be around other people with the same language on top of the regular school or anything like that so we didn't have. That kind of an exposure growing up as much as we were living around a bunch of different people from a bunch of different cultures. Um, you know like we we weren't active in like um, the larger communities mixtures of cultures until I was like a. 01:22:47.58 Jala Preteen or like early teenager and then my sister started taking me out and then the 2 of us would go on adventures and just partake of everybody's culture just whatever Cultural Festival was going On. We were going to go to and learn all about it and all this other stuff. So. You know that's actually where I got a lot of my weird mishmash of culture is from you know going out with my sister. My mom would usually take me to like the science museum or the art museum or you know she would keep me you know, take me to the Library. You take me to a bunch of different places. Um, to learn and grow and I'm still studious to this day but about her own culture I didn't really get to hear of very much. Um, she would be like oh your great grandmother made this pot holder. Okay, well. What about my like tell me more and tell me more about this person I don't have any connection at all unless you tell me the stories and neither one of my parents really told me stories about the family growing up. You know like their own stories I don't know. Ah, much of their own stories. There's very few of those that I know and then also like from my grandparents and great-grandparents and you know just like everybody Overall I don't really have so many of those stories. So I Wish I would have heard more of that before. 01:24:09.68 Jala The older people started to pass away and all of that like there's no way to record all of that now and to a certain extent because my parents' memories are starting to fade, especially my dad. I Don't know how reliable their memories are at this point to tell their own stories either. 01:24:31.87 Raúl Yeah, my my grandmother was actually like my primary source of family stories. Um I actually the the story I related about my dad's days as a pirate I did not know until I was in my 30 s. 01:24:49.79 Raúl You know, um because I asked them and then I thought well this is super interesting I need to record this sort of yeah I set up a camera and I asked him again and at least I've got that for for my son. 01:25:06.26 Jala Yeah, and see that's that's something that I really wish um that my parents would have done is just like record more of more of their story more of the other people and you know and the older generation stories So that. That information could be preserved and of course I don't have kids but I do have a niece and nephew. My sister has kids and so um, she's getting into the whole family tree thing and she's interested in all of that stuff. But of course she's also very very busy and also very far Away. So. It makes it harder for her to kind of connect with my parents here. 01:25:46.91 Simón Yeah, that's you know Raúl but what you said was so simple which is just that you asked right? But um. 01:25:54.40 Raúl And it took me nearly forty years to ask but I did eventually. 01:26:00.48 Simón Yeah, and like it's you know I've been getting into to family history stuff in the last few years and like it's just shocking because I mean I've done a lot in my own family. Um, but in helping like my in-laws and stuff with with some of their things where. There's so much that was lost. You know where we can figure out some things but you know the the details or like you know the kind of the final word on things where it's just everyone involved passed a long time ago, you know and no one ever seemed. To ask about it. You know, especially if there's anything um, kind of ugly or difficult there you know where people just kept it to themselves. Um or people go man what happened there and in my case, you know I've been into this and I've been talking with. Um, my dad a good amount where I you know I go hey did you know that so-and-so's parents were from here or whatever. Um, you know, did you know they got married a third time you know all that kind of stuff but there's just a lot that it just takes it takes time to slowly slowly unravel. All of that you know and and to trigger those memories of oh you know last week we talked about this and you know in my case and unfortunately right now you know we're dealing with some kind of heavy health scare stuff and like it just drove all of that home even more that you know like. 01:27:32.67 Simón You don't you don't always get a lot of formal warning of when these where these things are going to happen or how long someone's going to be around or you know, um, not just around but around with a clear memory you know or with enough good days. Ah where they can can. Really speak or remember well right? and um, those those times can can float away so quickly. 01:28:00.92 Jala Yeah, my grandmother on my mom's side loved to talk and would tell us stories of back. You know back in the day but the problem was is that she got alzheimer's um and it started setting in when I was like an early teenager. So basically at that time I wasn't like I was interested in it but I wasn't like oh the time is ending. You know I need to get this information now or whatever like I I wasn't in that kind of a ah state. You know, like that wasn't the top priority that I had at that time as a thirteen year old or whatever so you know by the time I got old enough to be like oh I really wish I had all of this history. Well her alzheimer's had advanced so much that there just wasn't. A way to really get that information from her and then like my grandfather started getting senile too. Um and part of that probably was because he was in a house with someone who had alzheimer's and so like. Ah, being around just that primarily for years and years will do something to you. You know I mean that affects you so you know he went senile to earlier than perhaps he would have so. 01:29:23.10 Jala I didn't really have the option there and then my dad's parents lived far away. So ah, you know I wasn't around them to just sit down and ask and I um guess I could just have called and been like tell me a story but like. When I was in college and stuff I was far too busy and then I was working three jobs when I got out of college and then I was out on my own but I was doing my own thing and then by the time I got back here to where I was living um with my parents trying to take care of them. Well now I'm taking care taking care of them. And like you know life happens and you just get you know everything gets away from you even when you think oh, that's ah something that's probably really important for me to get this information but days slip by and you know first a waitl passed away and then you know I will eat the past away like. What two years ago now so um and of course her memory was going for a number of years before she actually passed so you know the time for us to have gathered that information would have been when I was. Really when I was like a teenager and like you know and even before that and I just was not in the place where I had the presence of mind at that time to try to gather that information for my family and. 01:30:51.25 Jala I Know that my sister probably wishes that we had that information so she could pass it on to my niece and nephew. 01:30:58.85 Simón On that and that can be tricky too like with just our relationships with with parents or grandparents or really anyone older than us really changes over time. You know so what you feel comfortable asking as a 30 year old um as a sixteen year old might just seem. Like so beyond the pale you know, um, and ah and also you know depending on on the relative because like I know I I have my um one surviving grandparent and you know I love her and she's she loves us. But yeah and with the. 01:31:34.62 Simón Was not what I can would consider an open book as a kid you know, but now as like a grown man like it's different. You know I can broach a conversation and found out. She's actually very receptive to it. But um, yeah, it's that's tough but I. 01:31:52.37 Simón Ah, will say from from the kind of genealogy side of thing and like getting into all the the research and everything else is I feel like if it's just someone every if there's someone every like several generations every like 2 or 3 generations. Um. 01:32:11.31 Simón That can still be enough to really keep the torch burning and to reconstruct a lot of things but you know of course in our personal lives We we want to to speak directly to to our elders you know while there's still time. 01:32:26.20 Raúl Yeah one I noticed that when I had that change you were talking about where like I I felt more comfortable talking to my dad about stuff in general. 01:32:44.88 Raúl Kind of happened when I got to the age he was when he started having his kids because you know even even though you're not a kid anymore you have your memories from when you were a kid and you think of your parents as like. 01:33:03.60 Raúl Having their shit together and knowing what's what's what and then you get to be that age and you're like I have no idea what I'm doing Oh my God is this how they felt. 01:33:11.85 Simón Yeah, yeah, I'm there right now and I'm like no like my dad had is you know my parents had their feet on the ground and we're killing it and I'm like ah I you know I guess I'm doing okay. 01:33:26.15 Raúl Ah I look at as more like I guess empathy like like you know they probably didn't and they were just making it look like they did. 01:33:34.76 Simón Yeah, yeah, and I think at least for me I I found like like I Ah I'm I'm pretty close with my father. Um, but yeah, just that I think there's more comfort there in and just. You know, being open about it. You know like yeah, no I'm a person. Ah, and yeah, things were not always Easy. Um. 01:33:57.38 Raúl Yeah, you know and you've got your flaws I've got mine and we just do the best we can. 01:34:01.57 Simón Absolutely. 01:34:03.41 Jala Yes, so Simón tell us a little bit more about your splunking into genealogy. Overall. 01:34:13.15 Simón Oh yeah, sure. Um, well let's see here. So um, you know we were just talking about speaking to elders and stuff. So I um. 01:34:25.89 Simón I kind of just like dipped my toe into like I wonder what can be found. You know what? what records are out there and stuff how easy is is this to find. Um so I was poking around and and getting to know you know how do you do research and stuff. But um, you know I brought it up with my dad I was like hey I you know I did some legwork I think I got. You know several generations back like is this right? So and soborn at this time. Um and he pulled out something great because he he had tried to put like well he had put together a family tree at some point because he has like 8 siblings. You know, um and um. 01:35:03.72 Simón But he was he pulled out something that was like like golden to me which was um, just a piece of paper like front and back from some like beachside restaurant in Colima. Um, where. 01:35:22.20 Simón When he was talking with his dad mayab buelo when he was like 85 or something like Miabbulo lived to be very old and he was always extremely sharp mentally. Um, and yeah I guess a kind of a similar thing where they were both older. And he was just like you know they were talking about family stuff and my dad was like all right like give me give me everybody you know and give me the real version of what happened Um, and so he had this really extensive family tree which is like such a blessing. Um. To to kind of get that from the horse's mouth and it confirmed a lot of things for me. But um, my my overall experience of it. Um, is I think anyone who who dives into family history stuff. Ah, you inevitably. Also just learn about history and it's interesting because it's instead of kind of the macro view. You know which are like what are the big economic or political forces at the time you know what were the changes happening. Um. Those things are still there but you kind of you see them more on the scale of just ordinary people and it's it's made me um, have a deeper appreciation for for just kind of the the humanity of people in in the past including the distant past because. 01:36:53.32 Simón You really you learn about where they lived you learn about the kind of situations they were in and you know you you just start to think like yeah, they're like you or me you know they have kids they're trying to give them a better life. They're trying to go somewhere with work. You know if there's conflict going on. They're trying to like. Some of them might have participated some of them might just try to keep their head down until it passed. um but you know I I know that um race is a big part of my experience of ah you know, growing up in the United States and um it was really interesting for me in in doing like a Dna test and all that and having my father do the same um, you know it's got like a significant portion of of african um ancestry in his Dna. And then that has been borne out by my research that I've done and and so ah, you know for those at home like ah I would say like the average mexican person has you know quite a few ancestors of african descent. Um, but. You know, not everyone knows that or consciously acknowledges. It. Um, so that's been interesting and then it's it's also just led me into reading and stuff like ah I think it's easy to view race through this very american lens. Um, but I was talking to this guy who's kind of an expert. 01:38:27.33 Simón And he recommended a few books and one was called ah before mestizahe. Um, so like before this this mestizo identity which is kind of this you know spanish and indigenous you know blend that most people in Mexico identify with um. 01:38:46.97 Simón That was just really interesting to learn like how did this come to be and like why and who did you know, just all the complexities of it. So um, yeah I don't know how much how explicitly that ties into everything we've. We've talked about today but it it has been really interesting to just see um just how people navigated these different situations and like I I don't I don't have to ah remind people here at the end of 2022 that we live in some really. Wild and difficult times in a lot of different ways and there is if not comfort at least a connection and seeing others who you know others whose like whose Dna I still carry. Ah, that have navigated really intense times as well. So yeah I don't know it's just given me a a deeper connection and kind of understanding of how I came to be and ah you know that doesn't have to be. A box or anything but it does make me feel more rooted. 01:40:00.98 Jala Yeah, that's really cool and yeah, my sister is currently trying to get like a reconstruction of the family tree as Well. Under wraps on her side from you know her and her husband so that's a whole big. Another thing but it's like people in the family have the family tree from you know one or another side. It's just trying to you know hook up with the people who have that information that have done that work. Um I Believe it's one of my aunts or one of my um. 01:40:40.24 Jala Mother's cousins who did it on her side and then on my dad's side. It was my aunt. So so yeah, like that Luckily um, my sister's not going to have to do a lot of digging at least for our side of the family she will have to probably do some digging for. 01:40:59.64 Jala Her husband's side though unless he's got similar kind of situation going. So. 01:41:06.18 Simón Yeah, yeah, it's been kind of a from the ground up situation for me past about 1900 so that is very ah, very fortunate then to have some of that in the family already. 01:41:16.83 Jala Yeah, as a matter of fact I'm sitting here thinking about it and I'm like yeah I remember when she was visiting over the summer she asked me to get those things out of wherever they're stored There's some documents somewhere and I have to dig them out and scan them all. I don't know where they are so I've got to go turn the house around if I get sometime. 01:41:35.89 Simón Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm ready to be weird. Weird uncle Simóne giving out the binders and stuff of like put this away somewhere. 01:41:41.63 Raúl Um, the census. 01:41:44.88 Jala Um, well yeah, seriously be weird uncle Simóne because that's going to make so many different people's you know a later life a better kind of experience they they won't have to do all of that work. 01:41:57.61 Simón yeah well I yeah I actually I I did get kind of a payoff because I I kind of obsessively worked the first several months and then worked slightly less obsessively like another nine months and then my dad um, you know retired. 01:42:13.87 Simón And kind of celebrated by going for a long trip down to see his family and um I was able to like send um, kind of a summary and like print out this giant banner thing that they hung up at a big like family reunion thing and you know everyone was was really pumped so I was like. 01:42:33.79 Simón Yeah I was like I'm I'm glad this is appreciated and it's not just like what are you looking at all this old crap for huh. 01:42:36.75 Jala Yeah, yeah, well that's cool. So so yeah, we are like very close to running up on time now and originally the whole original scope of this episode was going to be about like. Passing on information to the next generation and we covered that a little bit but we also ended up spending a lot of time kind of talking about how the culture was you know of our parents was brought to our attention and you know how we assimilated that so you know but a little bit. Ah, different than how I was anticipating it coming out but still pretty cool. Raúl. 01:43:19.52 Raúl Oh no I um I was just hoping that we had time to cover one 1 more sub subject. Um, it's it's more of ah like it's more of a ground level thing. Um. 01:43:26.33 Jala Bring it up. 01:43:37.10 Raúl It's about some difficulties that I've been having parenting and I'm wondering if it's just a me thing or if it's more universal and it's basically that my like my parents just like. Everybody else's did the best they did with what they knew and the information they had ah but I don't want to parent my kid the way that I was parented because using. Ah. Enforcing stuff with violence I don't think is the right way to go so I'm I'm doing the best I can with the information I've gotten who knows maybe I'll be wrong. But I I feel like for me, it's more. Difficult because like everybody defaults back to how they were raised. So it's like I'm like Ginger Rogers you know I'm I'm parenting backwards and in high heels because I got to fight all of my normal impulses and you know be super positive reinforcement guy. I don't know how to do that and I was just wondering if if Simóne had any similar experiences or if that was just kind of a me thing. 01:45:01.71 Simón Yeah,, that's that's ah, that's an interesting question I'm definitely a like a resonant one I think that's something that you know we we briefly touched on you know that there are there are negative things from um from our cultures. You know from our or from our parents cultures that we you know we don't want to carry that with us into the future. But um I don't know in my case like you know my my. 01:45:34.70 Simón So My father grew up in really rough circumstances and you know like physical violence wasn't like a big threat for him I don't think but um, it was something where I know that he. Very consciously raised me and my siblings in a way that was very different from the way his father raised him. Um, and so he kind of broke that cycle and raised me in a totally different way than he was raised and in a lot of regards. Um, and so for me I am starting from a place where it was really different from my dad but that's kind of how I just grew up so it's maybe not as hard in some ways but it's still like um. I Mean it's extremely challenging to raise a child and deal with all of the stressors that that can bring on you know the economic ones. Ah you know, keeping good relationship going with your partner finding time to figure out your own Stuff. All of those things. You know it. It can really push you to the limit and kind of show you um you know like it's It's a lot easier to be um, kind of your ideal self when you you know aren't dealing with a a small tyrant. You know. 01:47:09.97 Simón Ah, you know the the whole best self kind of ah isn't always available. Um, but yeah I I I don't know in my case I think my my father worked really really really hard to be like consciously. And like audibly invisibly loving um which I appreciated and I've always known about my dad but the older I grow the more I appreciate that that was a choice in an effort. 01:47:48.94 Simón That he had to maintain you know for for decades. So yeah. 01:47:52.35 Raúl So it sounds like I'm at the point where your dad was and hopefully one day my kid will be at the point where you are. 01:48:03.36 Simón Yeah, and I have to say this? Um, my me and my siblings and my wife and her family and everyone um sees the depth of that love and you know respects it. And so I think that ah that is probably how others will look at you. 01:48:27.20 Jala And just to insert I'm not a parent but to insert. Um, my mom was abused when she was growing up and same people who were racist folks anyway. Um, so she was um. 01:48:44.43 Jala She was abused when she was growing up and she was not at all abusive to me or my sister she did not do any of the things to us that were done to her and that was you know. Kind of how Simóne says just like a conscious daily effort for her to not perpetuate to break that cycle you know and not perpetuate the way that she was treated and it's actually from her that I learned the kind of. Mediating diplomatic way that I tend to approach any kind of conflict where I'm like no no, no, no calm down when you can speak to me civilly and like a normal human being then we can talk if you're going to be. You know, irrationally angry and and not going to be. You know, somebody who can be reasoned with and you need to go away until you can come back and talk to me and then we will have a discussion once you work that out you know, um, and just treating people with that level of you know, like no, it's not gonna be productive hold on to it. You know like go go work it out. Do whatever think about it then we'll talk. You know that kind of conflict resolution rather than one that is violent or one that is abusive or you know speaking out of anger and having those negative repercussions that always come when you speak out of anger and are not considering. 01:50:14.45 Jala Being mindful of other people. So um I really internalized the way that my mom turned things around when she was parenting us and I learned from that and that became like a large chunk of my personality that endures to today. So. Um, it's a big effort but it is super super worth it and it can make all the difference in the world. 01:50:44.32 Simón Yeah I mean I I I um had someone who once told me that you know like things like parenting parenting is is hard and scary and you're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna wish you did things better. 01:51:00.94 Simón But the if you actually think ah if you care enough to think about it and worry about It. You're on the right track because you are concerned about the way your actions affect others. And um, you know, Sadly, there are a lot of people that just they just aren't um and you know and kind of tying it into our larger conversation. Um, yeah I mean it's I think as we said culture. Evolves and and identities evolve and so we have to find ways to to Carry. What's really valuable to us. What really resonates with us. Um, and you know leave behind what what is limiting you know. 01:51:55.10 Jala What is limiting that is such a good way to phrase it because there's some predispositions and in kind of like other negative things that you don't want to necessarily perpetuate that your parents have that were in your culture when you were growing Up. You know such? As for example, the racism in my family I don't want to perpetuate that so that's just not part of how I do you know?? Um, and that's important and you know for my sister and my niece and nephew they are white as the driven Snow. Um. Because she married a white person but and they live in a very very rural area that is white but she does her best to expose her kiddos to different cultures and she finds the folks who are of diverse cultures in. Area and tries to you know, um, have her kids you know around them so that they can be aware of and acclimated to you know as many different cultures as she's able to and she just tries to actively engage them with their own heritage. Um. You know Cuban heritage and things like that as Well. So So yeah, like that's that's also a tricky a tricky situation for her. You know, um, and by and large like her kids are not going to have a problem passing white and doing whatever because they are predominantly genetically white. 01:53:31.59 Jala But they also still have a tie to you know the past and they also are learning about other people's cultures that are not their own so which is very very important again trying not to be that cultural monolith. So. Home. 01:53:51.00 Raúl Yeah I think Simón Simón said it best. He's got the he's got the episode title. You know, ah just pass along what's unique or useful and leave behind what's limiting. 01:54:04.16 Jala Yep absolutely I think that's a good place to end it because we're like at time. So yes, mic drop mic drop okay so 01:54:10.47 Simón Stop watch. 01:54:16.69 Jala I Know neither one of you wants to be perceived on the internet. So I'm not going to ask you that but I will ask you if there's anything hey yeah yeah is there's anything you want to shout out or plug. 01:54:20.65 Simón I Am unknowable avert your eyes. 01:54:30.42 Raúl Can can you ask me because I had ah had a response ready to go. 01:54:32.95 Simón Oh shit. 01:54:32.99 Jala Ah, okay roll tell us tell us a thing where where can people find you. 01:54:39.81 Raúl Please don't look for me if you look for me, please don't find me if you find me don't contact me and if you contact me don't make eye contact. 01:54:51.41 Jala Simón your turn. 01:54:56.37 Simón Okay, yeah, so the only the only acceptable way to find rale is is in cerebbra. Um, yeah, ah so I guess there's not anything for to to look at that is specifically ah me. But I did I'll shout out a couple things I think are cool. Um for so for anyone else who is vegan and has mexican heritage. Ah if you're on Instagram and she also has a website but ah if you look up. Ah Dora's table do RaDora's table. Ah, she has blown my mind with a ton of vegan mexican recipes of all the traditional stuff I grew up eating so talking about cultural reproduction I didn't mention that that I'm I'm vegan and that's one of those things where people go is that even possible. Can you still eat that stuff so I'll just shout that out. 01:55:52.33 Simón Um, and ah yeah I Guess that's that's probably it. There's a lot of cool stuff out there. Um to give you a glimpse into how do people carry this stuff forward. But um, you know also ah, kind of make it make it fit. 01:56:10.50 Raúl So also if there are any other vegans out there listening in and would like to get vitamins that are themselves vegan and focus on the nine most difficult to obtain vitamins on a vegan diet check out. 01:56:10.37 Simón Their their current life. You know so. 01:56:29.80 Raúl wwww.victualiv.com -- victualiv.com (pause for jingle) 01:56:41.43 Jala Which are which are the vitamins that Dave and I both take so by the way they are good personal. 01:56:51.42 Simón Ra Are you vegan as well I didn't I didn't ask that in the green room vegan adjacent. Yes, you you are locked in ah in in a low orbit. 01:56:53.64 Raúl I am vegan adjacent. 01:57:05.15 Raúl Um, I'll explain it further in the green room. 01:57:05.40 Simón Yeah, that's cool. 01:57:08.89 Jala Um, Okay so you can find me anywhere on the internet that I can be found at jalachan including jalachan dot place and that is all this time folks. Until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!