[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I'm joined by Zombi (they/them) and Marcus (they/them) both of these folks have been on this show previously. So yay repeat guests. We love them. 00:17.56 Zombi Hooray. 00:18.89 Jala Yeah, so I've been hoping to get both of you on the show at the same time for a while um that like listeners won't know this but this episode went through some like drama of yeah when can 00:36.76 Jala We managed to make it work. Um, there were like power outages internet outages all kinds of stuff like standing in the way and I'm like I don't want to jinx this episode like I'm not going to say I'm happy to record today but because I'm scared that that's gonna that's gonna negatively affect the recording. 00:44.74 Marcus Right? yeah. 00:54.16 Marcus But you know what right? we're here. Let's Justre we're here and let's look do the thing. Yeah, be be here now as as famously said by Keanu Reeves. 00:54.68 Jala Capacity here. 00:55.50 Zombi Hopefully not. 00:59.77 Jala Yeah, oh for sure. So how are you doing today. Zombi. 01:05.59 Zombi Heck yes I am doing awesome Ah, nothing nothing special to stream today if my dog barks at any points I will just mute and wait till she cools down. 01:16.37 Jala Understand and that is fine I'm sure there's gonna be some kind of background noise from pretty much everybody's side at some point that just happens so Marcus how about you. 01:27.50 Marcus I am doing all right had had some stressful times recently. But in a bit of good news today I found out that I don't have cancer so that's good yay yeah so yeah, so yeah that was I literally just got the email like. 01:35.90 Jala That is really good news. Congrats. 01:36.68 Zombi So congratulations that is awesome. Wow. 01:46.33 Jala Oh Wow Okay, well then woo? Yeah yeah. 01:46.62 Zombi Oh my gosh I am so happy to hear that I know we just met. But I love that. 01:47.34 Marcus 15 minutes ago so that was super cool. Yay hey you know answer sucks. No matter who no matter no matter who it is I mean well thing that's 99% true but but. 01:58.82 Zombi It truly does completely. Yes. 02:05.40 Jala And yeah, yeah, well I am listeners probably know at this juncture I've had cervical cancer twice. So luckily it's the type of cancer that didn't require like a chemo or anything they just chopped out bits. 02:24.69 Jala So um, that's my my history with it I've been lucky in so far as like of types of cancer to get that is ah one that is easily treatable by you know again, chopping out bits of flesh So cool, but that is good news. 02:43.78 Jala So anyway, um, today we are tackling an interesting topic I've been wanting to talk about for a while but it's been kind of like again, um, a comedy of of things occurring I wouldn't say errors but like things occurring to delay it a little bit but ah. We are talking today about attraction and identity and not necessarily just romantic attraction but like all of the different ways in which we feel attraction to other people and you know this probably is going to lean into the romantic part. Um, at least to a certain degree because that is of course kind of like a general preoccupation of society and like an expectation of society I would say um society really just wants everybody to have somebody you know and of course it feels good to have somebody. 03:47.37 Jala So I did as usual my due diligence of pulling up information on the internet and presenting it for everyone now understand that attraction is very individualistic and very subjective and therefore. Any attempts to categorize different types of attraction is going to fall short because everybody's experiences are so different in the manners in which they interpret the world and therefore their attraction is going to be a different animal every time. So um. It's generally considered to be a blending of psychological and biological elements and you know again, what it means is just going to be dependent on the person. So I found one list of types of attraction which when I shared this with the class Marcus is like. Ah, well I actually would take this out and I think that we need to add and so like Marcus if you market or Zombi if you folks want to um, ah, interject at any point and add in commentary to this list and then we can like pause on stuff as. 04:55.60 Marcus Um I can take a little bit of the lead on this because I'm actually I'm actually going to be teaching a class on attraction in April so on'm this very subject and delving into different types of attraction and whatnot. So um. 05:11.98 Marcus So yeah I have my own list and a lot of theories around the different types of attraction on that list. So I have I have a lot of thoughts So I'm not going to try and dominate this whole thing. But I mean I can take the lead I can I can start off at least a little bit. 05:21.24 Jala Oh take it, please take the wheel. 05:26.39 Marcus Um, so yeah, multiple types of attraction. One of the things that I have found is that various types of attraction have to like a lot of them are based on um, mental association. So like we have you know we have. 05:43.93 Marcus Memories of things that we did things that happened to us in our past that have formed these mental associations with certain things and so that's kind of how in like based on the research that I did. That's how a lot of attractions tend to form right? Um, so like the way that I way that I have. Kind of written this out is that like okay like all of it is a result of you know chemical reactions in our brains right? So they form the mental Associations The you know the nerds that fire together wire together. All that stuff. So What ends up happening is like you know we people form. 06:19.51 Marcus Attraction and bond with each other based on literally anything because they form these positive mental associations with all kinds of things so like sports and entertainment trauma you know, but all kinds of stuff and that feeling of shared experience is what forms the basis for attraction. In my thesis. Um, let me preface it that in my thesis. That's what that's what that comes down to so one second sorry had to turn a thing off. Um, yeah, so based on that feeling or shared experience. 06:56.90 Marcus The types of attraction that I list that I have as part of my thesis are on the list that you put in the notes. Um, but there are specific ones. Um I don't know if do you want to like go through the notes first or do you want me to like delve into my stuff because some of my stuff is cross crosses over with yours. So. 07:15.75 Jala Um, we can take turns I can read some of the list off and then you can add in your little bits as you go and we'll just stop. We'll stop after each one and kind of chat about it and Zombi feel free to throw in once we get to that point. So. 07:28.56 Zombi Absolutely. 07:32.49 Jala Aesthetic attraction. That's when you admire someone for their physical appearance appearance but you don't necessarily feel the need to connect with them that would be like celebrities or etc. So somebody that you just see and visually appreciate. 07:46.50 Marcus Yeah, um, yeah, and that can actually um, that can delve into a lot of different things too because like it's not just. How somebody looks, but it's like all aspects of appearance right? So somebody might have a really nice singing voice and that's ah, that's an aspect of aesthetic attraction. Somebody might be really athletic and that's something that vibes with you. So That's an aspect of aesthetic attraction also because that is based on viewing them doing something you know when you move. 08:15.47 Jala There's also confidence factor like if somebody is really confident or they have just like a certain body language that you find endearing for 1 way of reason or another like I really like shy people I love shy people I'm attracted to shy people automatically because I'm not that way. So. 08:32.91 Jala I will gravitate to anybody who shy and just latch onto them and that's just like and not necessarily like a romantic way just like general I I need to be around that person you know and help them like out of their shell. Yeah. 08:44.30 Marcus Um, see you can read them. You can read that would that could fall into you that could fall into another cup another a different type of attraction to that could fall into intellectual attraction kind of and it could also fall into something you don't have on your list which is behavioral attraction. So. 08:46.96 Zombi Ah, that's precious. 09:01.27 Marcus All kinds of stuff. But anyway yes, agreeing ah. 09:02.63 Zombi I think aesthetic attraction is really interesting and I feel like maybe that's when I feel the most because I don't really form romantic or sexual connections with somebody that I might like the general look or appearance in some way of. Um, it's like when I'm playing a video game I might say oh man I love Hancock or you know from fallout four magjema from the accoza series I'm like if they were to be real I wouldn't thirst after them or go after them or I try to get to know them in that way I'm just like no I like how they carry themselves I like their design. 09:32.65 Jala Oh and I have so many like like okay and I know that this kind of like bleeds into other types of attraction. We haven't gotten to yet. But I I will crush on literally anybody everybody like anybody I like I will crush on you and I will just like. 09:50.79 Jala Be all for you and be a super cheerleader and whatever and this is not necessarily just people I know this is just people I listen to that I like their vibe like their energy like right now. 1 of my biggest crushes is Kortney Olson I love her 10:04.73 Zombi She's so cool I'm so glad you showed me her. 10:08.34 Jala Um, so and just like I love her vibe and everything. It's just great. So you know, but anyway um so yeah, Zombi and Marcus did you have anything else to say about aesthetic attraction. 10:18.76 Marcus I Think that one of the one of the things about different types of attraction and aesthetic attraction especially in Western society but in the world at large aesthetic attraction often is sold to us as sexual attraction because people people tend to equate. Certain aesthetics with sexuality and people think that if like that person looks and you can say Wow that person looks really cool people go Oh yeah, you know they immediately think that a lot of people immediately associate the fact that you like how somebody looks with that you want to get in bed with them or whatever and is just like. 10:57.65 Marcus No, it's that's just a nice color. Um, that's just a nice color. They're wearing or whatever you know it's like people what I have found most often is that people do not seem to be able to different a lot of people I should say so because obviously it's not everybody seem to. 11:16.10 Marcus Be unable to differentiate between aesthetic attraction and sexual attraction. Yeah, and it's difficult to navigate because it's like that's not what I meant you know. 11:18.14 Zombi Oh yeah, I've noticed that too. 11:20.76 Jala Yeah, yeah, and well, especially, um, you know I know that you have shared Dna here Marcus but like I am someone who is. Has a degree in painting who was gallery artist for a long time and also a personal trainer and a dancer so like among all the various things that I do like there's automatically in there aesthetic visual appreciation of all different levels of of personhood right. 11:54.27 Jala And so I admire like I I admire everybody all the time basically like I'm always admiring people for different aspects that I see in who they are whatever kind of way we are interacting or not interacting. You know. So. 12:07.97 Zombi Yeah, people are lovely Overall as a general role I'm not you know, generally yeah there it's but if we want we won't talk about that right now. 12:12.39 Jala Yeah,, there's There's a caveat there. There's me no no. So So yeah, so moving right? Along. We've got emotional attraction that is where you share thoughts and feelings with someone. And that would be family friends lovers people who are close to you and you have an emotional bond I Would even say you know you can come across somebody that you barely have ever interacted with. But you can tell from the way that they're acting or whatever you pick up on the fact that they have a shared experience in that shared Experience. Gives you that kind of emotional attraction knowing that they've been through some of the same Crap. You've been through because I I have that kind of situation happen a lot where there will be people that I don't know very well but I can tell you know that we have some commonalities and when I so can tell that. 13:05.17 Jala There's a little bit more than just an aesthetic appreciation or like whatever like ah over there otherness parasocial kind of a thing like you know it's It's a little bit different. 13:14.33 Zombi Yeah, you have this like feeling of shared closeness like I've been through this thing too or I think that same thing too and it just makes it easier to connect with another person. 13:25.82 Marcus The way that I ah one of the ways the the way that I defined this in my thing was that it is emotional attraction tends to be based on how you perceive someone processing or displaying their emotions and how that matches with how you process or display emotions so that can definitely have to do with. Common experience If You've both been through the same thing but also like if somebody like one of the ways you might experience the opposite or what I or just what I call you know, ah repulsion is if somebody like if somebody is really quick to Anger or like throws Temper tantrums or any or it's like. Just generally emotionally Immature. You're not going to be very emotionally attractive to that person most likely or if they display emotions in a way that is similar to somebody who hurt you then you know you're probably going to want to back off from that person. So. 14:14.10 Jala Well, there's also instances where that trauma makes you attracted because that's what you're used to which is kind of a dicey situation but that happens all the time where you end up in that cycle of abuse where like maybe your dad was a drunk and then you end up, you know. 14:32.16 Jala Finding another person who ends up happening to be an alcoholic and like you end up in that same cycle with the same symptoms because that's unconsciously you're being drawn to what you're familiar with yeah trauma bonding not not necessarily the best of things but 2 There's also. 14:41.30 Marcus Exactly trauma bonding Yay no. 14:52.70 Jala Um, like something that I have experienced in my relationship with Dave who is now my husband that happened recently. Um, thank you? So um, something with Dave is that Dave and I process emotions very differently. So. 15:00.67 Zombi Congratulations. 15:10.50 Jala Like we have to talk about it to kind of like see each other's points of view insofar as like how how we process stuff because we don't process things the same way. So like um sometimes that aspect can you know, be something that can be met with discussion and in communication and like understanding over time. No, That's not how I see the world or when I listen to a thing I'm hearing this you know and it even comes down to like how we hear songs is very different. Um, he hears Basically the the very very um. 15:44.22 Jala Like the accompaniment and the background but like the smallest part of that accompaniment is the thing that he's hearing and then I'm hearing like the lyrics or like the big part or the drum in the bass or whatever you know like I'm hearing some of the bigger bits especially like the beat in the lyrics because of. 16:01.73 Jala Like emotional attachment to music or because of dancing and wanting to catch the beat because I also taught tybo cardio kickboxing to the beat of Music. So like you know that's kind of drilled into me the way that I hear music. But for him he's hearing like these little disparate elements because. What I found is he kept on humming something and he's like it's this song and I'm like no, it's not what are you're talking about and it's because he's humming this little part this little accompaniment that's in the song but it's not like the main Melody line or the beat or anything like it's just some other aspect. 16:39.66 Jala So it's really kind of an interesting thing and it's been like a fun exercise in in seeing a little bit into like a window into somebody else's viewpoint that is very different. So. 16:52.97 Zombi Yeah, that's that's really fun to think about I didn't even think about it in terms of how you perceive the world differently and really, that's a large portion of it so much. So like you could just be talking about what you're talking about you'll hear music differently. 17:05.89 Jala Well for me, it's like I can bond with people who share a perspective I can also bond with people who have such a different perspective that it's refreshing and challenging and interesting to me as something very different from my experience. 17:23.73 Marcus Um, yeah, that's true. It's funny. You talk about like music and stuff one of the things I have very strong emotional attachments to film and to movies and ah. 17:36.68 Marcus It's funny because I cry at movies all the time but it's rarely at sad parts in movies. It's always at like ah on Tv tropes they referr to it as the crowning moment of awesome those the times I'm just like yes that ah you know, but just tears are streaming down my face the whole time. Ah when I was married back in the day. 17:56.76 Marcus I remember you're gonna laugh at this one but this is a perfect example. We went to go see Kung Fu Panda two and there's you know spoilers for Kof Fu Panda 2 big fight scene at the end of him not a spoiler really big fights been at the end. Um. 18:11.19 Marcus You know Poe figures out this secret technique and like does this and this this really big triumphant moment and I'm sitting there just the tears are streaming down my face I'm I'm a complete mess. My former spouse is sitting next to me going are you are you crying I'm like shut up this is terrible. You know. 18:31.64 Marcus And it's just like yeah and like it's it gets me every single time I watch the movie I might also add um and sometimes with really corny movies too. But I absolutely love them. So. 18:41.85 Jala I actually find and like okay so I am assigned female at birth and so I have certain hormone cycles that make me more likely to cry at certain times of the month and like I will check. And see because I I never remember month to month when it's supposed to be so I have to look at my little calendar thing on my app but like um when I'm looking at that I'm like no, it's not for two weeks why am I crying at this stupid thing like I do it all the time all the time and then. You know Dave gets the gooby face and then he's like it's because you have a beautiful heart so Marcus the reason why according to Dave you have a beautiful heart. Absolutely we're gonna make him make them cry just right now. 19:23.18 Zombi That's easy to see just talking to you. You really do. 19:24.19 Marcus Um, you know oh don't stop it. 19:30.42 Marcus Yeah, yeah, but anyway, yes, that ah so aspect of emotional attraction. Yes, how you respond to stuff how you respond to entertainment can be definitely be an aspect of that and yeah it is a. 19:33.98 Jala Because. 19:47.38 Marcus Was actually a really big disconnect between me and my former spouse. Ah so you know there would be. You know we'd go and yeah, we'd see movies that I really wanted to see and I really loved and and they'd be like Hm Ah I mean I guess okay you know and we can both agree. Yeah, that movie was good but I come out of it. 20:07.32 Marcus Just you know my like I said I my eyes are red from having cried or whatever and they're just like the effects were good. You know it's just not the same experience at all. So. 20:16.78 Jala Yeah, and that can and again it's kind of like it depends on how the other person is perceiving the difference right? because like you know my my way of doing it is. 20:30.56 Jala Oh that's really interesting. This is fodder for lots of conversation I would love to see more into how you know how you think you know and how you feel and and all of that stuff because you know people are fascinating to me. So I love to hear all of that and I love to learn about all of that because. 20:49.63 Jala It's only through broadening our perspective and seeing different points of view that we can really have like a fuller picture of the world around us and ourselves So so move. 20:58.44 Marcus Yeah, there was I guess I was going to say that another thing that we were polyamorous Also so it actually caused some really interesting issues when it came to that aspect of our relationship as well. But we can save that for later if you want so. 21:15.46 Jala It's up to you if you want to talk about it now since we're on the topic or if you want to wait whenever you want. 21:20.28 Marcus I'll give you the short version. Basically so I process jealousy a lot differently and in polyamorous relationships you as you might imagine Jealousy does come up. Um, and my former spouse really did not feel jealous at all about a lot of about anything and it was just kind of like. 21:38.30 Marcus How you know how you not I mean I get being secure in the relationship I mean great. But I mean you don't feel anything like at all like nothing you know and ah and yeah, like after some discussion and some therapy it turns out it was mostly the fact that. 21:56.45 Marcus My spouse was just completely apathetic about what was going on with me outside of our relationship and I did not share that perspective at all I actually thought it was pretty damn important. You know so that actually was a really big issue for us and it wasn't like that wasn't what ended the relationship but you know that was a really big disconnect for us and so yeah, it was an interesting thing to process in couples therapy later. So yeah. 22:21.24 Zombi That is interesting but like giving me so much to think about oh my gosh but I'm a little bit more on the emotional attraction. Um I was thinking about that and I really I have like. Ah, friend I have a few friends like this if I have 1 friend who it feels like we had the same shared experiences. A lot of the same things we think the same things we say almost the same thing here and there so I feel really connected with her and I can easily say she's one of my favorite people to talk to because of all these shared experiences because we are so similar. And on the other hand I also find myself very much interested and attracted to people or you know, not even just people but things that contrast heavily like I would say um I'm I'm really run by my my emotions a lot. It's not that i'mological thinker. It's that I don't process things away that you might. 23:08.76 Zombi Consider a logical thinker would process them so whenever it comes to me, especially in my you know dating life I typically go for people that contrast that so instead of same brain syndrome I go for something more like someone who can. Think differently than I can because I want to be able to see things in a different way kind of like Jolla said earlier being challenged. 23:28.56 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and what's interesting for me is that I if you leave me alone and I don't have anybody that I'm contrasting against. Because like I automatically kind of chameleon in in contrast with whoever so like Dave is very goofy very sweet but very goofy and so I end up playing the straight man in a lot of our interactions and I'm I'm the serious one Although if you leave me alone I will be very very goofy on my own. 23:59.80 Jala And it's just like a matter of of who I'm around but like I find that I tend to gravitate towards people who are um, a lot of times goofy or silly even though like I Also really idealize people who are super logical thinkers. 24:17.90 Jala And everything but like I end up in a lot of situations where I'm kind of the logical Thinker of the you know relationship. Whatever that relationship may be and so I'm the one that is come to for like solutions and for analysis Of. What's going on or levelheadedness or what have you like I'm always the mediator the diplomat that kind of thing and so you know it's been kind of an interesting realization throughout my life that like yeah like I end up filling that role a lot but like. If you leave me alone on my own I will be very goofy So I don't know I mean not that anybody listening to the podcast knows this but I'm always and and analyzing everything on the podcast but I really can be very very goofy. You just have to catch me. 25:06.60 Zombi Um, I mean I'm still hoping for those silly faces that you mentioned a while back. Oh. 25:07.97 Jala Without other influences. So. 25:08.26 Marcus Right. 25:12.44 Jala I Have to dig them out I have so many pictures on my phone in so many videos and stuff so like I've got to dig out the rest of those weird faces that I make I am I'm very very animated and so I make a lot of weird faces and I had posted some of them in my Discord server from time to time. But I do have like a whole catalog of them somewhere. But so yeah, any other thoughts on emotional attraction before we move on. Okay, so as next one is sexual attraction. That's when you want to have sex with someone. 25:52.30 Jala And the cause of your attraction can vary from person to person and over time this type of attraction can wane or transform having different reasons and manifestations over time. 26:04.13 Marcus Yeah, this is really interesting to me because what I find fascinating about sexual attraction is that while many of the other types generally speaking can be said to be based on a feeling of shared experience this one kind of isn't. Because like if you like until you actually have sex with someone. It's really difficult to have a feeling or shared experience when it comes to sexuality with you know with somebody unless you have had some very interesting conversations. Um, you know like some very in-depth conversations. It's really hard to. 26:42.61 Marcus You know to get a vibe for that and like 1 of the things for me I feel like more often than not what we call sexual attraction is actually sexual curiosity and what? yeah. 26:53.26 Jala Yeah, yeah I would agree with that and have okay I have to ask this question have either of you had that experience where you end up being sexually attracted to someone and you're in the bedroom and then you get. All kinds of interesting surprises about what they may or may not be into or how they are or whatever that you're like oh I don't know if this person is for me, you know, but maybe I'm I'm dramatically less attracted to them than before we we. 27:30.60 Jala Got involved in this situation. Okay good I'm glad it's not just me. It's very awkward. 27:32.54 Marcus Um, oh definitely you? Oh yeah, it is it really is. 27:38.21 Zombi I Think that um I think that happens to a good amount of people but I hyper myself have never experienced it because I'm very forward about my sexuality and the things that I like with sex or in regards to foreplay or anything like that. I will talk about that stuff with my friends. So especially when it comes to a partner I'll be like hey I like this this and that what do what are your thoughts on that we communicate from the very beginning and throughout because it takes a while for me to be intimate with someone. Ah. 28:01.60 Jala I Do that too and you know what I've still been surprised in bad ways and I'm like how is this happening I am so upfront I am so upfront. Yeah, so. 28:11.16 Zombi Well, it's good that you're up. It's at least. 28:11.20 Marcus Again, Yeah now I have I have found that most often when there's been some kind of disconnect like that. It's because there's been less communication but I've but I've also been in situations where yeah, there's been lots of communication and like kind of negotiation or whatever leading up to. You know, leading up to the sexual interaction in question and then we get there is just kind of like this isn't working this this. This is no good. You know. 28:37.43 Jala Well, if there's that there's that if the chemistry is off but then too what I found is that? Um, apparently I have found more than 1 person who is in this camp of. Saying oh yeah, I'm I'm interested in this or I do this thing or whatever and they perceive themselves in a certain way and then like I've had some of these people afterwards be like you know I'm totally different with everyone else except for you but you are just so blah blah blah and like I'm the. 29:08.90 Jala Exception I'm the exception in like everyone when they're with anyone else. It's a totally different ball game except like when they're with me like they get mowed over by my sense of self or I don't know what whatever like it's something I'm like okay I mean I have. 29:28.49 Jala Experienced people being intimidated by me for any number of different reasons because of my confidence level or my musculature or my you know sense of self I don't know whatever but Wow like. 29:43.66 Jala To be told oh you're an exception and I'm not like this with anybody else. But also you know I'm completely different than how I sold myself you know like oh I don't know like I don't I still I was the one that had to take it and I don't know I Still don't know. 29:51.15 Marcus Right. 29:53.28 Zombi That's that's the strange like how are you supposed to take that is it. 30:02.59 Jala And but years later it's it's baffling. So. 30:05.85 Marcus Yeah, yeah, no, there's definitely been yeah times when yeah, just the chemistry was off but then other times when it's just like what we thought we were like sometimes ah sometimes I think it's like. 30:23.67 Marcus What we thought we were talking about wasn't what we were talking about or like you know, like there was some kind of disconnect in like like we use the same words but in our minds that were those words meant something else and that you so it didn't quite get explained. That's just really ineffective communication on that point. 30:42.89 Marcus But and that's something I've kind of learned and gotten better about but like there. Yeah there've definitely been situations where it's just like everything's everything's great until right then and then it's just like well now it sucks like I'm very is I was like I need to I need to go you know and. 31:02.30 Marcus Yeah, and yeah, there is no and there's no like there's no explaining like there's no way to explain it. It's nobody's fault. It's just things are just not things are just not what we thought and it's it's a shame because in those situations like otherwise person was cool. You know. 31:21.96 Marcus And like everything seemed great until we decided to have sex and then we're just like oh what? what? I don't yeah, just nothing. Nothing is a nothing is working here. Yeah, just I don't know signals got crossed. Yeah. 31:30.97 Zombi It's not working. 31:37.96 Zombi That's that's interesting. 31:40.27 Marcus 404 error not found you know. 31:42.93 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, yeah for Sure. So well. Um, we will I'm sure we're going to be hanging out on that topic for a little while when we loop back to it later but let's keep on rolling down this list. So We've got physical attraction which is when you want to be close to people. Um, who love respect and handle your needs. This is typically with a romantic partner but it can also manifest with children friends and immediate family members. Folks who are Aro romantictic or asexual develop this type of attraction if they enjoy touching and cuddling so physical attraction which does not include sexual attraction and I've definitely had that situation myself because I I historically have been. 32:31.35 Jala Very much a cuddler I think that's kind of changed over time having been put into this role of being very logical in everything I'm not as much a cuddler as I used to be but I definitely was like a cuddlebug for most of my life. 32:44.70 Marcus Right? Yeah I okay so referring to my thesis again. So this is something I actually I had fun with this one because I divided this into 3 categories. So I actually think of physical attraction as an umbrella term. 33:02.82 Marcus Because people tend to use physical attraction as a means of saying sexual attraction in polite company. You know, um, and so ah, kind of piggybacking on that for my list. What I had was physical attraction breaks into the 3 categories of aesthetic sexual and sensual attraction. So what you're what you're defining. 33:22.12 Marcus As physical attraction is what I would call sensual attraction which is basically the same thing which is like desire for desire for or enjoyment of physical interaction that does not necessarily include sex but involving the 5 senses so smell tastes touch hearing and sometimes sight but sight is generally referred generally goes to aesthetic attraction right. And sometimes hearing does too like if I'm talking about singing voice but like smell taste and touch are like a big part of this. So like you were talking about like cuddling and things like that. Um sometimes like an aspect of central attraction can be in something as simple as a handshake you know. 33:58.59 Marcus Like people talk about you know I always want to give him a good firm handshake the bubble bla blah blah blah like that can be something that really takes hold of people like mentally you know if somebody if somebody likes like people have all kinds of mental associations with what a handshake is supposed to feel like or how you do it. So like you know. You greet somebody you give them a handshake they immediately get like kind of based on those associations they immediately get certain thoughts in their head about you because of how they think that's supposed to go you know and same for same for like a hug like so like people say oh my god like ever here. You're such a good hugger ever hear that one before or Harry Mike 34:37.59 Marcus And hear anybody say that kind of thing like that is something in their mind relates a hug the way that you do it and the way it feels to something back that they associate with like lots of positive. They have lots of positive associations with that and that's a form of sensual attraction in my mind and I think that that's. And interesting thing to kind of explore because that factors into like cuddling and everything else and I think. 34:58.34 Jala So fun fact the way that I used to shake hands if I if I already was familiar with the person and like you know we were shaking hands for whatever reason and we were already familiar I would and therefore I knew it was okay I would. Regardless of what gender presentation they had take their hand in mind and then kiss their knuckled every time and then also whenever I hugged anybody I would just literally heft them and that surprised people who are like over six foot tall and you know well over two hundred pounds and here's small me and I picked them up. 35:19.30 Marcus Now All right. 35:34.42 Jala You know they were surprised by this and I actually had a couple of people who were like oh this is really nice I I love this and then at one point I even had a friend who was just like I'm just going to piggyback on you. Okay and I'm like okay and I just walked around. 35:51.57 Jala With him clinging to me like a koalas so you know whatever so I just had to insert that because it's very weird trivia about Jala. 35:54.77 Zombi I Love that. 36:03.60 Marcus Yeah, well no, that's all those things are definitely a part of it and I think that that's um, here's something I think I think that central attraction is another thing that people tend to conflate with sexual attraction also because the 2 things are so close you know because I mean you know. 36:20.59 Marcus Sex obviously involves all of the senses. So you know those 2 things are going to be closely intertwined but like people have a really hard time separating that and that's why I think why we have so many people who are kind of like who are so disconnected from other people like they don't allow themselves to just casually touch other people because. It might be gay or whatever you know like that's something I got you know among straight Cis guys you hear that all the time they have the like the no homo thing when they want to hug their bros. You know it's just kind of like you're allowed to hug your friend. Dude you know and you don't and it doesn't have to be the bro hug every single time you know the bro hug. 36:58.17 Marcus You know the one hit you know the 1 hand doing like the the handshake and the other and the other arm around the thing you know it doesn't always have to be the bro hug you can just give your bro a hug you know it's fine. You know exactly. 37:08.26 Zombi Hear that y'all give your Bros hugs your Bros Knee hugs. 37:12.35 Jala Um, you all the Bros need hugs. They really do because they're they're trying to keep themselves insulated from you know society we're going to use that word again. So. 37:22.93 Zombi Ah, yeah, it's even more sad because you can feel sometimes when somebody is affection starved um a lot of people feel pretty comfortable hugging me for whatever reason. And sometimes I'm hugging them and you can tell that they haven't been hugged in a while or they close themselves off to affection because it intimidates them or scares them like Marcus said maybe most of their friends are guys and they would feel that's that's gaybro or whatever. Um, and it just it kind of hurts my heart just to. 37:52.54 Zombi See that in a person like they have not had that human contact. 37:54.57 Jala Yeah, and and that's kind of again part of the reason why I approached you know handshakes among people that again I knew it was okay to do otherwise I would just give them like a ah you know not I never. Been like a firm hand like I got a pump their hand like I'm about to squeeze it and destroy it like I'm I'm not using like ah a hand grip Strength Trainer. You know I'm not about to do that I don't have anything to prove you know, but you know with a a tender grasp I would say um. 38:29.82 Jala Or you know the way that I hug so you know and that's just because again like people just a lot of people just don't have that connection with other folks, especially like among our generation because. So like we we have been alive before and after the internet occurred you know and so the internet as much as it connects people like all of us we met because of the internet but at the same time in a lot of ways it kind of also distances people where like. 39:05.21 Jala You know when I was little we used to know everybody on the street. We don't know everybody on the street anymore. There's a lot of new people who are always shut up in their house and we have no idea who they are and they don't want to talk. They don't want to socialize so sorry. Sorry but. 39:15.38 Zombi I'm sorry I'm shy. No what I was fine I'm I'm teasing I mean I am but like I get what you're saying I agree. 39:24.64 Jala Well anyway, so sorry sorry if Marcus I did not mean to derail you. 39:28.54 Marcus Oh no worries I'll tell you though? um ah based just talking about the hug thing you ever ah had that moment where you're hugging somebody and this goes back to Zombis point where you feel that they have that apprehension. 39:44.83 Marcus And then they let go of it and they relax that is always fascinating to me like ever you feel somebody relax into a hug when they're ah were like ah and then they're like and then it's okay is like there you go see hugging it's good. You know. 40:02.57 Zombi Hugging is good like that tensed energy. It's not even necessarily their muscles. Although it does show up in their body a lot but that tense energy as a whole going from so much tension to just like a relax. It feels like it's melting. 40:14.69 Marcus Um, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it I would and I can always like for me what ends up happening is I always hear the other person breathe out and they just kind of blur. Yeah. 40:21.21 Jala Yeah, well, that's because they're just letting out that held breath. You know it's like they recognize you as a safe place and you know that's that's kind of premise of this entire podcast premise of my discord I'm trying to create safe spaces for folks. 40:40.84 Jala You know to to not just exist and be but also be loved as they are and not only that but moreover examine who they are truthfully and be able to talk about that with other people because so often we feel really isolated and have trouble discussing these. Ideas and concepts and and questions with other folks. 41:04.35 Marcus Definitely Yeah, absolutely. 41:05.91 Jala So was there more to the physical attraction that you wanted to cover Marcus. 41:13.20 Marcus Um, well one thing I wanted to talk about was just some of the more subtle aspects of it right? So sometimes one of the things that ah something I always found funny is how much smell factors into it. 41:30.55 Marcus There have I've been in multiple situations where you know I've given somebody a hug and they're like oh my god you smell so good and I'm just like thanks I did the absolute bare minimum and took a shower today. You know, just kind of like I didn't know that like my smell was that was was that big of a deal you know, but sometimes it really is um. And one of the things that I noticed a little bit of background in me being about nonbinary part of my gender journey was changing what deodorant I used um in terms of like my own presentation and switching from traditionally masculine deodorant to a more neutral or it's in the. 42:08.43 Marcus Feminine Department deodorant but just like you know, using what they call women's deodorant and a fairly neutral smell of it too. People immediately soften up to me differently once they like notice that smell and it's Fascinating. It's fascinating to hear just to watch someone's tenor completely change. When they realize that I smell a little bit like flowers. 42:29.80 Jala Yeah, and meanwhile here's me over here with my men's deodorant so you know that is what it is yeah right now. Oh yeah, I'm I am very very very sensitive to smells and so like. 42:39.88 Zombi I'm so glad you brought up scent though. 42:47.59 Jala When I had Covid and I couldn't smell anything. It was the worst and oh man, but um, yeah, like I am always sensitive to smells and so um, you know like I always take a big breath in whenever I hug someone because. 42:51.91 Zombi Ah, being deprived of one of your senses. Oh no. 43:06.20 Jala Like I am like you can you can. There's something about someone's scent that gives you information that maybe you can't actually process on like an intellectual level with words but like your body understands things about whoever by the way that they smell. So and smell is also very often linked to our memories and so that's another way in which that aspect can kind of call back to you know? Oh well, this kind of smells like you know my mom or smells like this this thing that you know I. 43:43.62 Jala Really like or whatever and you know it it affects how people respond. So yeah. 43:46.95 Marcus Absolutely yeah I have a couple of really interestingly strong sense memories when it comes to smell. Um I remember what my first transformer ever smelled like. 43:49.40 Zombi And you can see that feel. 44:04.00 Marcus When the first transformer toy I ever got when I was when I was a little kid. It was starcre by the way but I but I remember I remember what that smelled like and every and like I could tell like this was just a really funny thing and you know like many people my age. 44:21.56 Marcus Had transformer had my little mini transformer collection. But there were certain ones that I didn't play with as much because they didn't smell the same and like I could tell like they the ones that smelled like the first one those were the good ones you know and that was. 44:39.58 Marcus And think my other really strong sense Memory is that Um, ah my godmother who is somebody I was like super close to as a kid um has a particular scent and some people smell like my godmother and I am instantly attracted to people who smell like my godmother and it's. 44:58.42 Marcus Ah, fascinating thing and there's no, there's no other common nominator. None of them look the same. Nothing is even nothing nothing else about them is even remotely similar but they smell like my godmother man. 45:10.80 Jala Yeah, yeah for Sure. Ah scent does play a part and you know what I find too is that like if I catch a whiff of someone a lot of times that will kind of indicate to me whether or not there's chemistry with that person or not like if they smell. Okay, but they're not like oh boy I'm I'm wild about how their skin smells because you know everybody's skin smells a little different then um I find that that's that's when I get surprised in situations and things like that is when they allt smell like oh man they would really smell good to me, you know like. 45:45.33 Jala And and there's something about that where it actually just works into chemistry stuff too. So. 45:51.73 Marcus Definitely. 45:52.73 Zombi I am ah I am a huge fan of sweat like I use lemon as deodorant I just wipe down my armbits to neutralize the smell for other people. But I Really like the way sweat smells on people and maybe not everyone per se I haven't smelled anyone that I hated smelling but um. If I'm with for example, a partner, a good friend I will just like shove my nose in your armpit assuming you can send and just like sniff. 46:15.60 Marcus Um, yeah, yeah, I've done that no definitely and. 46:16.85 Jala Well I have a lot of like this is this is kind of leading back into like the whole sexual attraction thing but like there's definitely been times where I've been with a partner and like we have done a workout together and we are all sweaty and you know you have this sweaty smell. But then. Also you just did a workout so you've got those endorphins going and then I will tell you that is some amazing sex right? there. So yeah, So so that's that's that that's what my input on that. 46:42.60 Marcus Um, yes, it is can confirm Absolutely true. Yes, and there Yes, absolutely. 46:52.60 Zombi Well, that's fantastic. 46:52.72 Marcus Le of kent can confirm is totally true. 100% yep yeah been there. It's awesome. 47:02.87 Jala So moving right? Along. We've got intellectual attraction which we kind of covered a little bit earlier but we will delve into you further now so that is when you enjoy discussing or debating topics with someone they make you consider fresh, new and challenging perspectives and again like I like this. Intellectual attraction bit I can be intellectually attracted to any number of people and that's part of how I get enthused about different people I know on the internet without having met them in person is like we have a lot of common. Interesting. You know commonalities or interesting discussions or both. 47:41.10 Jala Um, but also that can lead into and bleed into some of the emotional stuff depending upon topic that we're on. 47:49.90 Marcus Definitely I think this is something That's really important about this too and it's the way you defined it and also the way that I have been defined in my thing is that it's really important that it's not about what a person knows but it's about how they think and that's like super important because some people will. 48:06.53 Marcus Equate intellectual attraction to Sapiio sexuality which is that's hushy subject for me because it sounds it feels kind of ableist sometimes but ah how somebody thinks I think is the more important crux of intellectual attraction and I think that that's. 48:23.25 Marcus Like the most important thing and the best thing about it is like you said it could be similar or different to how you think but the point is that you like it. So. 48:27.99 Jala Well and for me I find overall most of the time the people that I find the most refreshing that I am the most intellectually attracted to are faults who think in a vastly different way than I do like the way that Dave's brain work is a complete. Mystery to me and I love talking to him about it and there is even like a dave log of random things that he says because it extends in his brain. Um, you know, but even stuff like talking to someone like. Paul Russ or David moneysmith for example, both of whom are co-hosts of mine on the level and also have been good friends for a number of years. Both of them have like a refreshing different way of seeing the world that I love to just like delve into you know. 49:17.11 Zombi Well I'm just going to throw this out here but I am intellectually attracted to both the all wink. Yeah, yeah. 49:23.37 Marcus Um, oh my here X Yes, read on? Yeah, no, exactly like that's um I think that that's it's really important because um. 49:24.10 Jala Likewise I love talking to you Zombi and you Marcus I'm I'm attracted to everyone on this podcast. so so yeah 49:40.47 Marcus This is something I think people tend to underestimate a fair bit and I think people also don't think about how often this actually comes up like this is why and again, another reason I think people like. 49:57.85 Marcus People talk about sexual tension at work and I think that they kind of aren't paying attention to the fact that the attraction that they're feeling is based on a whole bunch of other stuff and when it comes to work a lot of times that is often intellectual attraction because that is what you're dealing with at work. You know you're not, You're not dealing with emotional stuff too often unless you're both complaining about your boss. You know that's next you know emotional bonding there but like most of the time most of the time when you're dealing with work especially in like an office environment and stuff like That. You're dealing with a lot of intellectual processes firing off all the time and. The ones that like really work or that solve a problem or that present like you said present a new perspective that says like oh I hadn't thought about that that makes this thing really interesting but bla Blah Blah Blah those are aspects of intellectual attraction and those are kind of things that like that build up over time. And when you have people who've worked together for a really long time and there's a high level of intellectual attraction. People tend to get into sexual harassment lawsuits. But so yeah. 50:59.89 Jala Well so I have ah an interesting thought that crossed my mind while I was listening to you. So would you consider when someone has a super big crush on like and. 51:14.99 Jala Um, a character or something that that would be like an intellectual attraction like they're liking the way that this this you know character is conceived of as or presented as or like how would you even quantify that. 51:27.59 Marcus I Think it can fall into that like um I think that I don't know let's take light like let's let's take light. Let's let's think like you gotten from death note right? Okay so super smart character right? People are always you know and. 51:34.35 Jala Um, it it could. It could Also yeah it could also very well. 51:45.78 Marcus His thought process is always on display throughout the entire show and throughout the monga right? I think that's something that can draw people in and that can be an aspect of intellectual attraction too when it comes to a character I think I think that that's one way to think about it. Um. 52:01.52 Marcus Obviously it can be all kinds of things I mean we we all have our attraction to himbo So you know it's an aspect of intellectual attraction. That's not based on. It's certainly not based on what they know but on how they think so. 52:05.96 Zombi I yeah Brendan Fraser 52:12.17 Jala And well I mean like if it's a if it's a character but it's like a character that's played by a live person. That's a little bit different than when it's like a drawn character and for me I can tell you I am a sucker for a good voice I always have been and so like. 52:31.84 Jala There are voice actors and actresses who just they that whatever character they play I usually like them like I had a problem when the like they makeumo got I believe it is who plays like a bunch of different be shown in characters happen to play like. What's his name. Ah Nugggie or Nigie or something like that from dung on rompa too and I hate the character but I love the voice and so I was so conflicted because I'm like no I'm primed to love any character presented by this voice actress. No, what am i. 53:10.32 Jala Do yeah so in in my case, a lot of it is like the presentation of the voice. So like that voice really is is a lot of that or like the visual style of the character or something sometimes I can say it's like oh well, this character is acting in a way that. 53:30.32 Jala You know would be fun to interact with maybe like you know, maybe projecting a little bit but like you know I can't I don't know how to quantify something like that because I think everybody's had like they're they're on a may or make believe character crush at some point or another. So. 53:46.83 Zombi I Never stopped having them. 53:46.91 Marcus Um, oh multiple right? Yeah, but once upon a time what you're talking about current sons. Yeah, exactly exactly although most of my like mine tend to be like. 54:00.97 Marcus Okay, another mine are usually a combination of aesthetic and intellectual right? like okay, so if we want to ah delve it going back on the subject of himbo for a second. My favorite one of my favorite characters from my hair academia is kiroshima because he is just the most wholesome dude you know his and he's just. 54:17.62 Marcus He's there for you. He's you know ride or die. No no matter what and he's ah but also you know he's f freaking jacked and so yeah, that but the whole the thing that I like about him because plenty of characters in that Shore Jack But what I like most about him is the fact that he is just. 54:36.97 Marcus He is very pure in his intentions all the time and he's always just like you know what I have to do this because it's the right thing to do and I got to you know, help people and save my save my compatriots and my power isn't that strong. But I'm just going to you know, crank it up to 11 and hope it it holds you know and like yes that. 54:55.13 Marcus Person who can't do much but they're going to do what they can you know. 54:57.98 Jala And meanwhile while you're talking about that to loop it back a little bit before I've got all misty eyed listening to you just because like that the like having never watched the show like it's just talking about you know, um the the attitude or whatever is. 55:15.64 Marcus Um, yeah, but see that's why I love him. He's got 1 power it. It's got 1 power and it's actually kind of shitty but like he uses it to the best of his ability and he gets the job done and it's just like yes that's the guy. So yeah, no, um. 55:31.32 Marcus Definitely a level of intellectual attraction there because he's just you know he's just in there and he's trying his best you know and he's not smart. You know he's a path to he but he's not smart, but the way that he thinks about a situation is that you know you know, ah like. 55:50.56 Marcus 1 particular situation I'm thinking of he's the only person there and then the villain that he's facing down is freakgging ridiculous. It's just kind of like I need to protect all these people I'm the only one and this is my only ability. Well here goes you know and it's just like I just have and and he does it of course because that's the show. 56:10.26 Marcus But um, but no, he's amazing. Um, but yeah, no, um, we kind of got off track there. Yes. 56:17.34 Jala Yeah, yeah, but anyway characters characters falling in love with a character that is 100% may make but because like I feel like if it's a live person then it can't it doesn't always, but it can bleed into like just liking that actor or actress or whatever. 56:36.43 Jala And you know just liking them and their presentation and other stuff and sometimes that doesn't happen like 1 in mine would be like terminator or dark fate grace character but I don't like I I looked at the actress outside of that role and in other roles and I'm like ah. 56:53.86 Jala I think I just like that character that that particular character presentation. Not the actress per se in that case, but you know then again, there's cases like Zombi who just loves like Brendan Fraser and you know that's like definitely the actor following or. 57:08.96 Zombi Oh yeah, 100% 57:13.00 Jala So so moving right? Along. We've got romantic attraction. That's when you want to develop a relationship with someone. The intimacy is closer than a friend but not necessarily sexual and again this is a thing where a large number of folks I think are. Feel like 1 requires the other and not necessarily There is not necessarily any dating or marriage or anything this can exist as a platonic relationship and I can say I've had a situation. My first husband. We had a very very very close friendship for a number of years. We were just like super besties. Always there for each other in all the situations and honestly speaking like it when everything was said and done like ah other reasons were the reason why it ended up not. Blasting like ah he got ptsd and that ended up becoming a factor and you know that's where that went but we definitely as I discovered after we got married we had like the romantic part. 58:27.23 Jala But not necessarily like all of the other aspects that you would need in a marriage like we had super great friendship super or whatever and you know, definitely the romance there but like you know the practicality of day-to-day life and marriage like we weren't It wasn't like an equal partnership. 58:44.71 Jala Because of the situation that we were in and there were just a lot of ways in which that imbalance just made it not tenable and so like that that was like a firsthand I got that firsthand like you can have a very strong romantic aspect. But then just. 59:02.48 Jala You know, still not have like a successful dating or marriage or whatever off of bet. 59:10.30 Zombi Absolutely um, my experience my most relevant experience I guess with a more romantic attraction that is more so strictly Romantic. Maybe some emotional um is with an X of mine who is asexual I am very much allosexual I. Sex is important to me but we were able to for years have a very successful relationship because there are still deep feelings of friendship care. Love we always wanted the best for each other we enjoyed spending time together. Cuddling was always on the menu so that could have been. You know I could have done without it even though I am a more sexual being the the relationship did fissle for other reasons. But I think that was probably 1 of the most relation important relationships I've had my life. 59:56.31 Jala Yeah I would say that kind of again part of part of the situation with my first husband was um, just again like the the inequality like ah there were just a lot of ways in which. 01:00:12.56 Jala We came across a lot of different situations than we had dealt with in the past for all of the half of our lives that we had known each other right and spent like every waking moment talking to each other basically and it just.. There was a situation where you know we really would have benefited from having therapy or something but he was not willing at that time to do that and so you know things just fell Apart. So So anyway, but um, yeah, like romantic. 01:00:50.50 Jala Attraction doesn't necessarily mean you know that you you end up in a relationship even like I've had friends that I've had like romantic kinds of exchanges with in the past and you know they might be romantic but like there wasn't really a relationship there. Like we didn't and it wasn't even like friends with benefits type stuff. We just had the romance aspect to it because we happened to both be romantic type of people and you know had that form of chemistry there. So. 01:01:22.30 Zombi Yeah I think I have that kind of relationship with most of my um, most of my girlfriends like female friends it just and maybe but that partly has to do with the fact that um people assigned female at Birth generally have a much easier time expressing expressing love and emotions like that. 01:01:39.22 Zombi But we're always very like lovey dubby hug. Yeah I love you when we leave and stuff like that call me when you get home and I feel like I have that a lot with you know, certain groups of friends. 01:01:48.92 Marcus This is very interesting to me. 01:01:52.59 Jala It's also very interesting to me because I'm like oh that's what assigned female of birth people. Do I don't like wait a minute but then again, yeah yeah I I know but like every once in a while I just I'm just like okay. 01:01:56.36 Zombi True. It's not a like hard rule or anything. 01:02:09.46 Jala So do we have anything further to add about romantic attraction Marcus you know I was gonna say you haven't spoken yet. 01:02:14.35 Marcus I have thoughts. No I I didn't want I wanted to let I wanted to get let other things get out there First. All first of all I wanted to big I wanted to see if anybody was going to kind of step into things I might cover so I didn't have to be redundant, but um. So I have a lot of thoughts about romantic attraction and part of it I think is a little bit trauma based but you know I you I'm not going to be the judge of that. Um I kind of there's a part of me that feels like romance sort of doesn't exist but also no. Because like the reason I the reason I think that is because that ah for one the definition of romance or romantic is there's like a million of them and it's extremely subjective. So it's and. What I've noticed is that what we consider to be romantic is extremely context dependent. So I think that that's 1 thing I have an issue with um but the other thing is that just in terms of and again asterisk. 01:03:28.53 Marcus Society when it comes to what society calls romantic. There's there seems to be like like a script to it. A lot of times and I don't think that people I I think that too many. 01:03:47.81 Marcus People put too much weight on that script when it comes to interpersonal relationships right? um. 01:03:56.33 Jala A lot of elements that I feel are those prescriptive elements are the performative aspects of it right? like like say for example, um, you know Dave and I will be in public and we're just not super. 01:04:10.78 Jala You know, let's show all of our affection and hang all over each other in public. But that's not us right? So um, then people are like oh shouldn't you He's to he's your husband or whatever you shouldn't you beance or whatever we were at the time you know so shouldn't you be no yeah, doesn't. 01:04:29.70 Jala Mean we aren't romantic, but like it's not a show for you. My dude if you want to do something like that go watch like reality Tv I mean go away or else. Dude you know like we don't express ourselves that way in you know, like a public space. You know. 01:04:46.59 Marcus Right? Exactly I made a there's a friend of mine who is ah I guess generally kind of a cuddle friend and like we were talking about the idea of doing societally acceptable romantic things completely ironically. Ah. 01:05:02.95 Marcus Like yeah, what if what if we went on a date and did all this really stupid traditional stuff just to get a rise out of people and then just got a and then just had a laugh as we left, you know it's like would that would that count or you know. 01:05:17.25 Marcus Because like we had dated before but we just decided. It's not the kind of relationship that we wanted but we stayed close and it's just like all right cool but it's like so now what do we do? you know it's just like do we like we still you know, hang out and eat sushi and watch movies and Codlin stuff. But like we're not really, we don't consider that to be very romantic at All. And um, we were just like yeah what if what do we? What do we call this you know and so now we're just like yeah so no, don't know what if we did get dressed up and go out and like do like a full on romantic date just for shits and giggles you know and not. 01:05:53.21 Marcus Put any weight on any of the gestures that either of us are performing. It's just for the just for the fun of it. You know and um and because of like the kind of thought exercise that we ended up doing around that we just realized that a lot of like. The things that Society Considers Romantic Um, they're just they're what you make them. You know you don't nothing has to be none of the gestures that people consider to be romantic have to be romantic. You know, but also you know. 01:06:29.30 Marcus Anything could be so I think and I think that that's really interesting and since and it's a little bit like nihilistic like since you know since it means nothing it means everything you know. 01:06:40.16 Jala Well, it's kind of like you know what it has the importance that be applied to it. We can say that for a lot of different things such as like our gender identity or gender Identity is what we make of it. You know or the concept of gender or whatever is something that. 01:06:58.39 Jala It is what we make of it. Whatever that is and its importance to us in our sense of self it varies wildly so like what we consider to be romantic is going to be on a case by case Basis dependent upon any number of factors like if you have different trauma experiences in your past you know. 01:07:17.80 Jala Ah, related to 1 or another thing that might be otherwise considered romantic by somebody else who doesn't have that experience then you know you're going to be seeing completely different things but it's it's kind of like this the same kind of thing about. 01:07:25.37 Marcus Absolutely. 01:07:32.32 Jala Attraction in general like attraction is so subjective and different for each person and how they experience it is different So like what is or is not romantic really depends upon what weight you put on it and what kind of a ah context you've got around it. And all of those other stuff and I think what ah happens to a lot of couples is that they tend to end up whether or not they realize it trying to fulfill these performative aspects that society requires of them quote unquote and then. 01:08:05.81 Jala That wears them down and sours them on the concept of just you know, living breathing and existing and then going hey that was really really you know touching romantic, Whatever you want to call it. You know like they don't They don't have a free enough sense of of liberty to. 01:08:25.50 Jala Express themselves like they feel like okay well romance is you know, according to what I've been taught and. 01:08:30.10 Marcus Right? yeah. 01:08:32.30 Zombi You know that follows along really well because you might do the same gesture for 2 different people and on one hand it could be romantic and on the other it might not be romantic like I I like to give people a little presents all the time I like to give them flowers or rocks you know, cool things I find and are like. And it might be a gesture of hey this is my friendship. This is a completely platonic friendship I have no romantic feelings toward you My attraction to you is purely like maybe an emotional attraction or anything like that. But then I can turn around and give it to another close friend who I do have these romantic feelings for it's like it just depends. On how you yourself are perceiving it and I still think it's obviously important to communicate your feelings toward that person too. 01:09:10.60 Jala Oh sure and a lot of it is also your intent on that node you know like your intentions when you hand something to someone who is just like an emotional support buddy or whatever is going to be very different than someone that you actually have romantic feelings for and so like your intention. 01:09:29.49 Jala Which can be conflated or confused or whatever you know which I've been in that situation way too many times because I'm a little w type of person. Yeah, where I'm affectionate. 01:09:30.10 Zombi I Yeah like oh man I Just want to hug you I adore you and then like the way you're saying it I'm not saying it like I want to bone you or marry you or anything I'm saying it because I do have these feelings for you They just you're reading them not the way they are. 01:09:50.31 Marcus Right? Exactly and the funny thing about that too is that like if you have a good read on what a person or when another person considers to be romantic. You can manufacture a romantic atmosphere suited to that person which I think is. 01:10:09.25 Marcus Fascinating also and can be used incredibly nefariously like ah um, yeah, yeah, okay so you ever read There's ah, there's a book I don't know if it's in circulation anymore. But you can find that online for free which I think is I think speaks to its viability. 01:10:11.12 Zombi Oh Wow I didn't even think about that that is fascinating. 01:10:27.25 Marcus Ah, but also like I think the fact that you can find it online for free shows that not many people are buying it because that's how twisted it is and people recognize that this is kind of messed up but it's a book called the art of seduction and it's essentially the pickup artist bible and the whole thing in it is. Talking about how to twist and manipulate a situation into what the other person thinks is romantic so that you can get stuff out of them. It's messed up and the thing is it doesn't even pretend to have good intentions. 01:11:02.12 Marcus Because in the book it refers to the people you intend to seduce as victims and targets. No really messed up and ah yeah, it's really, it's really really like messed up and that's like I said that's on the really harsh extreme negative side of things. 01:11:06.49 Zombi Oh god. 01:11:19.33 Marcus That you know you can manufacture a situation to you know to? you know you can manufacture a situation to be romantic in the mind of the person you're dealing with um and that's yeah, That's the really dark side of it on the good on the nice side on the positive side of it. You can do that as a way as a way to. Just do something nice for a person. You Love if you know that things are special if you know that certain things are special for them and you want to make like an evening you know or even just like even just an evening at Home. You know special for a partner and you know these things are things that they like you can. Do those things and it will mean a lot to them and that's a great thing and that's great for things like anniversaries you Know. So. 01:12:01.32 Jala Well, yeah, and and just ah one way that I've done that recently at my wedding I had secretly contracted a friend of. Dave and and me and I asked Jake Leinhart who also did the music on Dave's podcast and mine. So all the tunes at the beginning and the ending of the show are made by him. So anyway, Dave loves Jake's stuff and so I was like. 01:12:30.26 Jala I want to give Dave like a few little gifts at the wedding. But 1 thing that I really want to give him is I want to have a song written for him and so I asked Jake and I'm like Jake can you write a song for Dave ah like I he's like oh well. 01:12:39.61 Marcus Um, in. 01:12:46.28 Jala How do you want it to sound and but ever and how long and blah blah I'm like Jake no no, no, no you' you're not understand me I want you to do you because that's Dave likes what you do do whatever but all I ask is that somewhere in the song have it say Mr Pocket the irony 01:13:02.90 Jala Because the Mr. pocket is one of Dave's various nicknames but it's the the main one and so the irony is that I typed up like a document about Dave in particular little factoids about Dave and then little factoids about our relationship right? and I was like do it with this. You know do what you will with this and so. 01:13:22.60 Jala Ah, Jake then turned around and made a song called love as a muscle and it is amazing and I asked Dave to put it at the end of this episode. So like after the credits roll after all of that stuff listen at the very end and you will hear love as a muscle by Jake Lyonhart definitely check out his work. Um, the irony is that. 01:13:41.54 Jala He didn't actually use Mr Pocket and any of song which is the one I asked him to do but that's okay, it is a wonderful song and I made him missed up and cry like he didn't cry when I was reading my vows or any of that stuff but he cried at Jake's song and that was like super meaningful and he's like we have an the song we haven't. 01:14:01.37 Jala You so it's yeah and it's like the sweetest cutest thing ever and Jake is absolutely the best ever ever ever. So check him out. But anyway other than promoting Jake yeah like the kind of point here is that I was ah using stuff that I know that Dave likes and. 01:14:18.64 Jala You know other things that are sentimental and sweet and then use that to kind of culminate into now we have an Anthem so. 01:14:24.20 Marcus Right? That's see that's see that's incredibly romantic like that's that's amazing. That's so cool. Yeah, that's on one of the things I think is interesting about romantic attraction too. People think people tend to. 01:14:30.25 Zombi Absolutely I Love that. 01:14:40.10 Marcus You know, put it in the same categories as all these other types of attraction which you know is legit depending on what you feel about it but something I find interesting is that ah people who are on the asexual and aromantic spectrum Still want all of the things that people consider to be romantic. So It's just like h. Is romantic. The right word for this then and that's an interesting just kind of like thought experiment too is just like okay well if I'm aromantic but I like these things that people call Romantic. What am I Actually like it's. 01:15:09.32 Jala Well I think I think what where you come into kind of and I'm I'm not Aro So I don't know I am I amm ignorant. So if I'm talking on my ass please correct me um, but more or less what I would think would happen in that case is like a separation in a distance not from the thing itself. 01:15:15.93 Marcus Um, yeah me I wouldn't. 01:15:27.39 Jala But again that kind of intention or like that wrapping that societal wrapping around it that you don't like you know like a disassociation from like those intentionalities or um with that societal expectation that attaches itself to those things. 01:15:44.93 Marcus Right? Yeah yeah I Wonder I thought well actually on that note something I So found recently somebody else pointed this out to me. There is ah this new terminology coming out. Um, so you know people who. Like romantic things but don't consider that some don't consider themselves to feel romantic attraction. Turns out, there's a term for that and it's called Cupio romantic and I thought that was interesting and this this and similarly cuppio sexual is a thing too. So like cupio romantic is somebody who. 01:16:16.44 Marcus Desires a romantic relationship but doesn't experience romantic attraction. So somebody who likes romantic things but doesn't actually feel romantic attraction to people necessarily just like so it was cupio sexual like sexual things but doesn't actually feel sexual attraction necessarily to people. 01:16:32.64 Marcus So like highly libidenous, but like you know it's not about the person necessarily. So. 01:16:36.60 Jala Yeah, yeah, well that yeah, that just comes into like a and what what trappings of the thing you know like you you do or do not connect with. 01:16:44.50 Marcus In. Right? Yes, exactly So hmm. 01:16:53.21 Zombi Exactly That's what's going on in my head you said it perfectly I Love that. 01:17:01.24 Jala Okay, so the last the last one as per this list that I have here is reciprocal attraction which is when you develop attraction to someone only after finding out that they are attracted to you that is like a flattery. 01:17:19.31 Jala You know, flattery and you know someone being attracted to you is pleasing as a sensation and therefore that makes you kind of pay attention to them in a way that maybe you didn't before and consider them in a way that maybe you didn't before because this kind of. 01:17:35.93 Jala Potentiality is there that you didn't know existed. Maybe. 01:17:38.44 Zombi Okay, this one surprised me a lot or Marcus you want to go first. Okay I never thought of this as being an actual thing I've never considered it partly because I have had people confess to me before. 01:17:40.14 Marcus Um, there Nope I got nothing on this one. 01:17:56.82 Zombi And unless I already had feelings from the for them from the get-go or we kind of got to know each other better way later down the road I never thought like oh you like me maybe I kind of like you too. Maybe there's a chance there and I'm not sure if it's because there's a chance or if like you kind of described already. It makes you consider them in a different light but I. Just never would have thought this was a thing to be honest. 01:18:17.53 Marcus Yeah. 01:18:19.20 Jala It's something that I absolutely have felt before ah because I am friends with folks I am open and honest about myself and I share stuff and you know people chat with me all the time I get messages all the time. So I chat with folks. And we are buddies but like I've had situations where people have said Oh I'm you know, attracted to you or whatever and it's like I am already familiar with this person we get along great. We have some level of attraction. Obviously since we are continuing to exchange with each other right? So then. Knowing that they have this attraction to me is like oh like that's a thing that wasn't in my mind because I didn't think that was a thing that was you know a potentiality even so. 01:19:06.39 Jala You know and I don't know that necessarily that's been like something that's ever panned out into an actual relationship or you know situation for me necessarily but like you know it's definitely had me stop and kind of go huh you know and and kind of consider them differently because again, there's something there that I'm like oh I didn't. And didn't realize that was a thing I didn't know that you were feeling that way you know. 01:19:30.94 Marcus Yeah, no, that's true. The only thing I can relate this to is reciprocal arousal Actually ah exactly yeah like that I think that's interesting. 01:19:34.26 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure Reciprocal Arousal Absolutely I think that's like programmed into us though I. 01:19:35.13 Zombi Okay, that yeah I get that. 01:19:46.53 Marcus I mean I don't know like yes and no because like there are some people who have like okay so I have a partner who experiences pretty high levels of reciprocal arousal like you know once you know it's like you know one person starts turning the crank and then you know okay now things start doing you know now things start going. But like it's ah I've I don't know how similar that is to this because like I feel like when like with reciprocal Arousal. What's happening is that there's like there's. Ah, level of knowledge and consent there. That's different than with reciprocal attraction I feel like like okay because like reciprocal with reciprocal aroussa is like yeah I want to do this thing I just need to kind of get into my body about it and you're going to help me do that You know whereas with reciprocal attraction. It's just like. 01:20:44.17 Marcus It seems like this kind of comes out of nowhere and is a kind of like wait What you I It was like wait now I have to consider this all of a sudden and I don't know it feels dissimilar in that way I don't know I'm not sure. 01:20:57.60 Jala Yeah I think this is kind of like a trickier one and like a trickier level of attraction to kind of discuss and I don't think that it's one that necessarily kind of like fires and turns into anything super lasting necessarily. 01:21:14.10 Jala Like I don't I don't know anybody offhand now that I know that's anecdotal but like I don't anecdotally know anybody who had a situation where it's like yeah I didn't know they were interested in me and once they did to you know, tell me this then suddenly we developed this relationship and I didn't like that's I can't. 01:21:33.40 Jala Say that that's really happened that I of of you know out of people that I've talked to about any any kind of like how did you meet your partner kind of situations but like then again this we're discussing different various types of attraction and that attraction is not necessarily a lasting one. It can be. Ah, temporary question Mark like you know, looking at the potentiality of a situation and turning that over in your head and then going huh. Okay, well yes, or no and then move on you know I don't know it's it's a kind of like a weird one I'm not sure a hundred percent 01:22:10.39 Jala Think that like ah yes, ah Reciprocity is an aspect of attraction. But it's not like a mega break its own category kind of thing to me so you know. 01:22:21.59 Marcus I Think I agree with that? Yeah like I don't I don't so I don't personally see how I don't see how yeah like like you said I don't see how any kind of lasting relationship can come out of something that is born out of reciprocal attraction. If It wasn't already on the mind of the recipient at least you know if it wasn't already a thing then I don't feel like it could possibly thrive you know. 01:22:51.52 Zombi Right? I mean I agree with that and I don't want to invalidate anyone that might be in this sort of relationship and it worked out for them because you know who knows and I'm always willing to listen if there is someone with a story about that. But my my worry I guess maybe not worry, but my concern my. 01:23:10.51 Zombi Yeah, my concern whatever comes from well if this attraction only sparks up whenever another person says that they're interested. Are you just grabbing something in the heat at the moment because you're feeling the need to fill a hole for something else and it's going to end up just being something that crashes it burns or just fades away. 01:23:28.20 Zombi Like why are you I think it's at that point it's a good idea to kind of look into yourself and see what part of yourself, You're not feeding in order in order for you to jump on something you never would have considered before. 01:23:35.27 Jala Yeah, very well said I Definitely think that that's that's something for sure. So. 01:23:39.48 Marcus Mom f. Um, yeah I wonder I I don't know I really wonder I don't I I don't know anybody again similarly I don't know anybody who you know thinks of reciprocal attraction as kind of like. A main as like an identity for them. You know, like um, you know people are you know Ace or arrow or you know you know, allosexual aloromantic, whatever I don't feel I feel like reciprocal attraction is going to be something that kind of. 01:24:16.52 Marcus Falls further down the line not necessarily an aspect of identity but more of a I don't know if expression is the right word but I feel like. 01:24:28.68 Jala It it feels more to me like an aspect more than it feels like a main through line. So all right? So that is the extent of that list Marcus did you have any additional ones that were not mentioned. 01:24:31.77 Marcus Yeah, um, yeah there we go. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. 01:24:47.10 Marcus Ah, yeah I do have one um something I think that's kind of important. It's kind of dovetails into a couple other ones. But I think that one is that's kind of important is behavioral attraction. Ah behavioral attraction is is generally based on how somebody. 01:25:01.31 Marcus How how somebody interacts with the world and how that aligns with how you interact with the world. Um, and it can be Again. It's similar to intellectual or emotional attraction. It can be the same or different. But yeah, how somebody acts how they interact with the world. Definitely can be so it can be a source of attraction for somebody. Um, and one of the things when I talk about this I like to ah equate it to like some of the tropes that you see like you know hardass with a heart of Gold. You know like the really you know the really hardcore super gruff like motorcycle dude but who has like puppies you know and right. 01:25:33.87 Zombi You just describe Jala kind of. 01:25:34.94 Jala Um, now I was I was not going to just put that out there. But yeah, yeah. 01:25:40.30 Zombi Sorry I just like Kate let's double up. 01:25:43.00 Marcus I mean yeah, that's accurate. But yeah, but like that's that's what I mean like you know was there was a thing I remember on family guys like oh my god that guy is such ah such a badass It's like yeah but he gave his entire paycheck to kids with diseases you know and that's like. You know and's like oh and you see I'm in a different light now. Um, and of course I can go the opposite way. Ah, one of my I didn't watch a whole lot of sex in the city but 1 of my favorite bits from sex in the city was when Carrie Bradshaw Sara Jessica Parker's character you know meets this really hot dude at a club and like you know the chemistry is like off the chain and they go home and they have sex and everything and then she wakes up the next day in his apartment and it's just an absolute mess and she goes to the bathroom and there's no toilet paper because somebody. 01:26:36.80 Marcus Because one of his roommates used the last of the toilet paper as a coffee filter and and kind of like oh no and like that's an aspect of Behavioral repulsion Really like somebody who really does not have their life together. You know. 01:26:52.46 Marcus And you know if that's a kind of it's that if that's something that's important to you and it was very important to her then that's going to be. You know, not going to be a source of behavioral Attraction. It's going to be the opposite. Um, you know on the flip side. You know somebody who is I don't know really good with money or you know does all of these nice things for people or is like you know, really loves their mom. And you know like you know is like those are the kinds of things that can be sources of behavioral attraction for somebody because those are those are things we develop positive associations with again, you know So that's right. 01:27:21.20 Jala Poor. You could be like me and just be like I like shy people I like quiet people I like all of you and I want to take you and open you up I Want to to you know, get social with you because I know that you're just over there and. 01:27:38.21 Jala Even if you want to talk to people. You're not going to do it on your own so I will I will come to you. 01:27:41.59 Marcus Right? right? exactly? So yeah, so I just wanted to throw that one in there too. That's one I think is kind of a big deal. Um, or it can be a big deal Anyway, like I've definitely had some situations where I was really attracted to a person and then they did something that really just like. 01:28:00.46 Marcus Turned it completely off and I was just kind of like oh oh no, there's no coming back from that Oh God oh. 01:28:06.28 Jala So you know what's interesting to me is that um I am pansexual but I wasn't necessarily always so that's kind of been like over the years as I started to know different people of different gender identities and then you know find myself attracted to. Everybody I love everybody. Everybody's wonderful, but like um, there have been points in my life where like the gender presentation of a person you know for the most part is one way and then like it'll shift some and then like um, that. Presentation aspect whatever that aspect might be you know is is a behavior that just doesn't register in a way that you know was attractive to me. Um, and I would have that even though like now like it's a very different situation but there were times in the past where like I think. 01:29:00.64 Jala With the fact that I was raised in a super gender binary household with you know, parents who stick to their gender roles from like way back in the day traditional type gender roles and stuff. And all of that I think that is primarily was what was at work there to where it's like you know because like now I I don't have that problem you know because I would consider that to be like a problem that's like me facing and overcoming like some kind of a weird stigma that wasn't it wasn't examined at that point. And it wasn't true to who I am as a person. It's just like an assumed response like I don't know how else to describe it but just an assumed response having not come across people of different gender identities very often. 01:29:43.16 Marcus Ah, bright. Yeah. 01:29:54.15 Jala Up until that point you know seeing different gender expressions you know was like confusing to me to where I'm like I don't know what I think you know so you know. 01:29:54.51 Marcus Um, right? yeah. 01:30:02.41 Marcus Right? Yeah, little bit of compat going on there. 01:30:07.98 Jala Yeah, and so it just it took a while for me to like figure all of that out and examine all of that and you know it. It took a lot of just knowing people talking to people understanding people better and you know continuing to kind of self-reflec and say okay. What of these things that I think are actually my thoughts and what of these are ones that are assumed or projected on me by society by expectations by whatever because that is ah kind of a big deal I have a lot of friends who are kind of also. 01:30:45.26 Jala Trying to deprogram themselves from different things. They were raised with and there's definitely friends in mine even in like my jollotines place Discord that have come a long way from where they used to be with you know all of those. Kind of self-examinations. 01:31:04.54 Marcus So yeah I was over here nodding my head emphatically are yeah right? Yeah like oh right people can't see that um but know exactly like 1 of the things that ah. 01:31:08.38 Zombi I Do that too. Sometimes I'm like listening like yes yeah. 01:31:21.57 Marcus 1 of the things that I figured out over the course of my gender and sexuality journey is like okay so for a while like I thought I was pansexual and now I'm just kind of like ah sort of but not exactly like 1 of the things that I've been doing in kind of. Breaking down my attractions is understanding kind of what they're related to and how they're not necessarily sexual. You know, um, and so one of the things that I realized I was having a conversation with with some friends of mine a couple of months ago and we were talking about. You know, gender and sexuality and things like that. 01:31:53.74 Marcus And um, one of the things that I said that somebody was not ready for was that I was like no I'm like I am I am attracted to a lot of people and you know I'm yeah I'm attracted to I'm attracted to people like across the gender spectrum. Absolutely but I am not sexually attracted to most people at all I am aesthetically attracted to. 01:32:13.19 Zombi Or something. 01:32:13.21 Marcus So many you know I I want to look at everyone I think everyone is beautiful but like I don't want to like sexually be with very many people at all actually and I'm actually like while I Love how people look I'm very picky when it comes to like you know. 01:32:32.10 Marcus Who I actually am sexual with and I think that that's an important thing to recognize for my it's been a very important thing for me to recognize about myself because it's ah it's helped me not be confused when it comes to how I feel about people and so yeah, it's been Ah, it's been kind of a big thing. 01:32:51.45 Marcus And so that's been an interesting thing to to feel out as time has gone on and just understanding like I said where my attraction comes from when it come when it comes to the different people who I've interacted with is just like oh this was about that. Okay, you know, ah it's like you're just. 01:33:09.13 Marcus Yeah, you just you're just really pretty. Okay, yeah. 01:33:10.89 Jala Ah, well, it's definitely important to know because like like I said ah I had a marriage prior marriage and that was one where it's like there were a lot of signs indicating that you know for all intents and purposes looking at it with the long history that. That you know my ex had and I and you know like how close we were our romantic factor was off the charts and all this other stuff and there were so many ways in which we saw eye to eye and this and that and you know yeah, this just seems like Duh. We should obviously get married. And then that ended up not being and as we did we parted amicably I mean he's been on this podcast like ah is not a problem. But um, you know like that that was ah a thing that we explored and unfortunately found that it did not work. 01:34:04.78 Jala You know and that that's a kind of a situation where like not quite enough. Examination was taken into account. You know, like if we had sat and really sat there and fought about different levels of attraction and all this other stuff and really you know rather than falling in love with I Think the. 01:34:12.13 Marcus Oh dear. 01:34:23.29 Jala Potentiality of it like this could be really really great. You know that kind of a thing. Ah I think that's that's where we got misled and it's important to know and. 01:34:36.40 Jala You know when I say that I'm pansexual. That's because I've sat there with it A long time had long discussions with people and you know lots of interactions with different folks across the gender spectrum and found no like I I would absolutely be in a relationship with you know. 01:34:54.29 Jala This person or this person or this person and they are all in different places on the gender spectrum. So um I ended up marrying Dave but you know both of us actually consider ourselves to be pansexual. It's just our situation. So but but we are also monogamous. So whatever I don't know. 01:35:01.13 Marcus Now. Right? yeah. 01:35:14.17 Jala So the potential was there. So the attraction is still there. The attraction is still there. We can both ah appreciate everybody and that's a great thing. So so speaking of that factors of attraction. That's the next thing on my little list of notes. 01:35:15.91 Zombi Absolutely and I too am pansexual. Oh yeah. 01:35:16.88 Marcus Um, right exactly? No absolutely yeah. 01:35:32.51 Jala So from the American Institute of bisexuality factors of attraction and I will I will put this infographic in the show notes proximity reciprocity similarity physical attraction and familiarity. They've got like bubbles going on here where it says arousal attraction that's like this. 01:35:51.57 Jala Big oval behavior which is like a big circle and then the smallest one is identity and they all overlay. It's kind of like a Venn diagram except for some reason they didn't do a ven diagram I don't know whoever made this infographic just i. 01:36:00.60 Marcus Yeah, that's death. 01:36:00.89 Zombi This is. They were having fun. 01:36:08.80 Jala I Don't know what they were doing but anyway so like it's just got different overlaps and stuff of behavior and identity and arousal and attraction and how those things interact with each other so I was kind of interested in and both of your perspectives when it comes to like Okay, we already talked about Behavior Behavioral traction. 01:36:26.84 Jala We already talked about different forms of arousal and attraction. Ah so how does identity factor into your concept of attraction or how does attraction play into your sense of identity. 01:36:43.85 Marcus Um, first one then the other. Ah yeah, um. 01:36:46.83 Jala Ah, chicken or egg situation I Guess was there a self before there was a traion not anyway. 01:36:52.44 Marcus Yeah, no I don't know I feel like ah for me I think that for a long time I very strongly identified with heterosexuality for a really long time I was raised in church so I didn't have a choice you know. And then I got out of that and started to look around but um I don't know I think that for me. Ah how my own identity affects How I'm attracted to other people I don't know in some ways it kind of doesn't because like at this point I've. I Think at this point I Okay not that it doesn't I think that I'm come to the point now that I recognize my own identity as being pretty open-ended and that allows me to experience people. It allows me to have the freedom to to you know to experience people openly in that way, you know and just kind of. Look at folks honestly and not put them into a box based on what I'm supposed to do you know and just be like okay and yeah, this is about this is this is just how I feel all right cool you know, um. 01:38:02.18 Marcus I Think there are aspects of other people's identity as I get to learn about them that can affect whether or not I'm attracted to them or the level to which I'm attracted to them I think that can come into play sometimes but that's not really about.. It's not necessarily like their gender. As like that that aspect of their identity so much but more like a lot of times Their political identity can have a very large factor. You know how they yeah how? yeah like I think that's that's a big factor now. 01:38:36.29 Jala Well in to insert just a second I read a tweet just yesterday that was some random thing that popped up on there because you know Twitter is a trash fire it I mean it always has been but it's worse now. 01:38:51.51 Jala And um, anyway I don't know how this got on my feed but it was some random person saying my daughter was really into this guy and was dating him and was you know super attracted and everything was all the bells and whistles. It was great. She was on cloud 9 and then she found out that he's a Trump supporter and dumped him and you know was heartbroken. Did she do the right thing or whatever and it's like that. That's a you know like that that people have different deal breakers. Okay, and like you know if you cannot mediate. 01:39:21.98 Jala Something which if you are a super Trump Supporter you're kind of like on a a hard hard right? kind of leaning you know for the most part and that's a real hard stance. That's not ah, a stance of something that can be. Ah, you know like oh we can. We can have our differences and still love each other. That's like a hard stance where you don't have compromise right? There's no compromising with that so you know when that identity came out like that's yeah, that can be a deal breaker for somebody for sure. 01:39:58.33 Marcus Absolutely yeah, no definitely I think that um like I think that there are a lot of people who don't consider how strongly that factor is in and I think that. 01:40:16.26 Marcus People like it like they either don't think about it at all or they think about it way too much. You know it's never just it's never something where how do I put this. 01:40:36.93 Marcus Damn it I had words and I lost them. 01:40:41.12 Jala Well, if it's people are either overexamining and I have a case of that myself like ah I was talking to a person and they were. Interested in me and there was kind of like a mutual kind of interest going on and then they said to me, you know you would be the perfect person except that you are not Christian and it's like. 01:41:07.15 Jala And like you know, over time they changed and now their stance is very different but like that window you know like that different and like now they're they're actually opening up and seeing a lot more like they're doing a lot of self work and growing and changing and adapting and like. 01:41:13.18 Marcus Yeah, yeah. 01:41:23.12 Jala Coming out of the closet a little bit about a bunch of different aspects of their identity that they were just in denial about and like you know that was the societal expectation right? there that was that was being foisted and and cutting that down and you know. 01:41:41.86 Jala Again, like that. But like that happened to me I had that societal expectation foisted on me and until I started to grapple with that and say what if this is truly me and what if this is just an expectation or a fear or and a lack of understanding or a lack of experience or whatever, Whatever it might be. 01:42:01.83 Jala You know so and it's definitely like you're over analyzing it and thinking that it is the only thing that matters or you are you know, not considering it and then end up having like a crash and burn kind of situation happen for the most part or or the 2 01:42:20.83 Zombi So hard to find that middle ground that sweet spot. 01:42:21.22 Jala Extremes of that. I will see me when it comes to identity and like reinforcing stuff so when I was talking to Dave about you know my gender identity and how I express myself and then like my sexuality and you know. Coming to all the realizations I have about you know like I don't consider myself to be like a cisgender woman like there's so many different ways in which like I don't fit that mold and I don't feel comfortable with that mold and I actually get really really uncomfortable when it I i. Have those glaring differences pointed out for 1 or another reason. Um, but at the same token like I also was like and I think I'm also pansexual and then it was great because I was talking to him and he's like you know I I have pretty much just like a ah male gender presentation. But I feel the same way like I don't I feel like I'm on the spectrum somewhere you know on the gender spectrum somewhere I don't feel like I ah you know I'm 100% assist male or whatever and also you know yes I feel attraction to everybody also and it's just because like again like. 01:43:38.10 Jala That was just like oh he is truly that loving and accepting and you know everything type of person you know and that that just kind of reinforced my love of him because he not only is he supportive but he also. 01:43:50.35 Marcus That makes sense. 01:43:55.00 Jala Is of like a perspective similar enough to where like he's like no I understand that there is a big spectrum about these things and that I'm somewhere on that spectrum I tend to like feminine presenting individuals. But you know like that's a tendency that's not like ah a be all end all you know or that kind of a thing. 01:44:12.50 Marcus That makes sense. Yeah. 01:44:14.59 Jala And you know like that also makes me comfortable because if he said oh no I'm a ciss head person I support you but then like I'd always have in the back of my mind but I don't consider myself to be like a ah cisgender woman. So like. If you are attracted to women and I don't one hundred percent fit that mold. You know you know I would have some kind of a weird doubt. Yeah I would have some weird doubt in there. You know so that actually made me feel more secure and more loving and more happy and um, yeah. 01:44:48.81 Jala But also like my identity and you know all of all of that like ah my gender identity and my sexual identity sexual attraction. Whatever sexuality. Um I had to really sit and think about that for a long time because like a lot of my defaults. Were again, kind of programmed in. But then I had close friendships with Trans men and Trans women and various other people who are nonbinary and whatever and you know they got really really close and. You know there was this Well if I lived in the area that you did that I would absolutely ask you out for a date kind of situations and it's like well I have to think about that and you know reflect on you know what would I say in that situation. 01:45:35.97 Jala What would I do you know and all of that and it wasn't like an automatic. No, it was definitely not an automat magnet. It's like no I am attracted to this person huh. Okay, well you know and really thinking about it well in the big units is that you know like with my overall. 01:45:45.42 Marcus Now we have this to reckon with yes. 01:45:52.84 Jala Viewpoint of the world and the way that I try to live my life and trying to make you know my space around myself into a safe space for everyone to be whoever they are How can I Then say that I'm. I'm not attracted to all of these people I've loved them all you know in different ways. Yes, but I like I look them all and some of them get what I put you know, entertain notions of romance and sex and stuff with all these people. Yes, that is a potential that exists. 01:46:24.31 Jala You know like I can't say that no I don't have that attraction. No I do like I I have all of that because I mean it wholeheartedly when I say everybody is welcome here. You know so but. 01:46:39.82 Zombi That's really sweet though. 01:46:41.78 Marcus Yeah, definitely. 01:46:41.90 Jala Not to monopolize Zombi Please talk about talk about Identity. 01:46:43.74 Zombi No, it's okay I was enjoying it I understand mine's pretty pretty short and sweet. Actually my identity just like my attraction like everything about me I consider incredibly fluid. Um I don't like being contained in 1 box or another I am also pansexual and I am also demisexual. Ah just but for demisexual it's just meaning. Um I really have to get to know you before I can form any kind of sexual attraction toward you I have to you know feel I guess maybe a checkbox we're talking about all these separate detons of attraction. 01:47:18.42 Zombi Do you check the box off these other kinds of attraction can I get to know you as a person can can I know your soul can I blah blah blah this and that before I can actually experience arousal towards a type person I can't even see someone walking down the street like I know friends who are like wow they're so attractive I would hit that I'm like I can't see that I don't feel that. But um I do know I have the capacity to love whether um, platonically or romantically sexually whoever or whatever I sorry whatever or whoever I don't know um I know I recognize I have that potential so that's why I feel most comfortable with the term pansexual I like terms that make me feel fluid like me being gender fluid. Um, a lot like Marcus said earlier. It's it's more like for me I'm also I like to keep myself open I like to be able to change where I need to change to you know, survive and to fit. 01:48:09.35 Zombi Who I am at that time better because we're constantly changing. We're constantly learning and growing as people so I feel like if I were to close myself off and say yes I am um but bisexual Transman or something like that then I feel like that would change too often and when it be fair to the people I'm communicating with either. 01:48:26.00 Jala Yeah, I'm going go get me the mystic eyes again I was just not in my head vigorously. So. 01:48:34.67 Marcus No, that totally that that definitely tracks though? Um, yeah, no like I think that for me, you know, having having the openness to explore is more important than linking myself to any particular identity. 01:48:53.88 Marcus Think that's the best way for me to put it. Um, and so yeah, just being like I don't know let's see what happens you know and like. 01:49:01.70 Zombi And just sliff let people be people. 01:49:05.16 Marcus Exactly and I have so many like there are so many people who I am attracted to who are going through all kinds of interesting changes as they discover more about themselves also and like some whom I'm parted with some who I'm just friends with some who are like just kind of adjacent to these things and I'm just kind of observing and it's just like okay that mean that. That put some thoughts in my head and now I feel a certain way and now I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna sit here and process that and you know I'm going to figure out some more stuff about myself. You know and um, and yeah, just having the openness to do that and allowing my allowing myself to have the openness to do that is more important than. Putting any kind of finite name or label on an identity for myself. Yeah, so. 01:49:46.27 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely and you know like I feel like there are a lot of people who are scared. 01:49:47.39 Zombi Yes, I feel that. 01:50:01.24 Jala To do that kind of self- examination and really honestly look at themselves because it's easier to just kind of take what you were handed or what what is assumed about you. 01:50:14.62 Jala And then just kind of roll with that then it takes courage really to like look at yourself honestly and you know openly and understand what potentialities exist there because maybe there's things in there that you had never considered before you know. 01:50:30.54 Marcus Absolutely oh definitely. 01:50:34.77 Jala And when I say stuff about ah assumptions I Mean for example, like someone's sexual orientation is usually assumed to be monogamous and monosexual like if a woman is dating another woman. She's considered to be a Lesbian rather than like. 01:50:49.79 Marcus Right. 01:50:52.92 Jala And what that means is that means it's bisexual or pansexual erasure like people just assume there's only 1 thing that you're attracted to and that's whatever you're with at the particular moment and so forth and that that turns into like erasure and problems. So. 01:51:08.70 Zombi Big problems really, it's like why jaless since you're married you and Dave could be mistaken for being in a who straight relationship when that does not define who or what y'all are and it's it's just messed up to be invalidated for a portion of who you are. 01:51:18.94 Jala Councilor. 01:51:27.48 Marcus Definitely I mean what people that's the thing we have to remember here and I think this will probably dovetail into stuff about expression too is that what people see is only like two percent of what's going on you know and what other people see depending on their relationship with us I mean you know what other people see is. Gonna be a total Flash. It's you know it's literal tip of the iceberg you know, Underneath. It is the other like 90% of everything that else is that's going on that they're not going to find out about unless they actually decide to honestly engage with you and if they don't do that then they're missing out so too Bad. So. 01:51:59.80 Jala Yeah, absolutely I Do we still have all these questions but we're almost on to hours. So I feel like we're just gonna have to like put a cap in it and try for another episode of more splitting more with like concepts of discussing different types of attraction and what. Is most frequent for each of us and then like sitting in with sexual attraction and specific and just kind of going into more stuff about like sexual expression and things like that I think it would be good to just give that its own episode and let that be its own thing able to breathe over there because there's. Plenty to camp out on on that front. 01:52:39.53 Zombi Yeah, that sounds good. 01:52:40.93 Marcus Um, I mean just looking at the just looking at those notes those are like those are already pretty questions. Yeah. 01:52:43.27 Jala Big questions. Yeah yes, big questions. So I think I think we're just going to go ahead and wrap it up there. So in that case, we still have time. 01:52:55.35 Jala For kind of like wrap up thoughts about general concepts of attraction overall and all this other stuff that we talked about attraction and identity final thoughts Zombi. 01:53:07.95 Zombi Ah, you know for me, it just as a whole and everyone listening right now don't be afraid to love your friends whether that love presents itself in a romantic or platonic or you know any kind any form of care and friendship that you have towards somebody. I Think it's important to express that obviously with her consent if someone doesn't want to hug do not hug them. But you know don't don't be scared to kiss so homey's good night. 01:53:31.32 Marcus There you go? Yeah now my my final thoughts are similar hug your bros. But yeah, no like don't I would encourage people not to limit themselves very similar to what Zombi was just saying don't limit yourself to what society. 01:53:51.80 Marcus Has to say about who you are or who you should love or can love like give it some honest thought and you know and the other thing is that it's okay to be wrong like you might. 01:54:04.21 Marcus You might go out there and explore and decide. No actually that's a bad idea. This isn't going to work for me at all and that's totally fine. Just give allow yourself the freedom to do that and and it's fine like always remember what Miss Frizzl said you know explore experiment you know, go make mistakes get messy. That was the whole thing. You know. 01:54:22.92 Marcus And the audio was you know? So yes, that. 01:54:26.48 Jala Yeah I would just second all of that and you know also I think it bears a good looking at just kind of considering the relationships that you have in your life and like what kinds of attraction. Do you have and what kinds of attraction. Do you have more. Frequently and like you know that you can have a lot of self revelations in examining what it is that you're attracted to and how that attraction manifests itself. So as a reflection exercise. It also is really good just to learn more about who you are truly and. You know, making sure to ah, kind of examine is this my feeling or is this just you know like an assumed thing that I'm I'm performing. You know so all right? 01:55:05.68 Marcus Definitely. 01:55:18.63 Zombi Yeah. 01:55:24.59 Jala On that note where is it that people can find you on the internet if you are to be found Zombi. 01:55:31.19 Zombi I am on Twitch I stream under the name Zombiloli which is hard to fill out but and thank you very much I also have several other social media as I'm not sure which ones I'm not supposed to say but I do have like an all my links camp site bio thing so you can find me there for all sorts of stuff. 01:55:36.22 Jala I will put it the show notes. 01:55:52.26 Jala Awesome and Marcus. 01:55:55.11 Marcus I am on Instagram @Marcus_Rasaan um my that links to my photography Instagram and also my Patreon which is patreon.com/randomrain I'm doing animation and illustration there and um. @Marcus_Rasaan on Twitter, @randomrain7 on Twitter for art. Um everything gets cross-pollinated so you go to 1 you find the rest eventually um, anything else I don't think so. That's it if you're in the DC area around April I will be doing an attraction and my exploring attraction presentation where I talk about all this stuff at the crucible in April so if you want to come and check that out that would be really cool too. So yes. 01:56:34.71 Jala Awesome and I'm sure that you're going to post it on social media and when you do I will make sure to retweet so for sure and so I of course can be found anywhere on the internet that I can be found @jalachan including jalachan.place where you got this episode that is all for now folks and next until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile and don't forget to wait until the end so you can hear the song. Okay bye. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music] [Love is a Muscle by Jake Lionheart] Dave is the type of guy who doesn't like to water the garden; but it's not because his heart is in the wrong place or it’s hardened; He's just too much of a sass-quatch; to stand around and water plants, he'd rather birdwatch; Or maybe blow kisses at grown men; thinking, "he blows kisses at her, then I'll blow kisses at him" a kind soul with a good heart that has no equal; looks at ugly dogs, and swears that they look like people; one of a kind, elevated mind, with his own way to talk; "Those aren't people words" so now there's a Dave log; people watching, taking measurements with care; how big is the box, the size of a child, yup that kid is a square; Then one day he found his strong lady, His Heart and Stars; and her heart strings make music that sounds like guitars; so there's always a song in his spirit; and in every rhythmic sound he swears that he can hear it; So he dances to any beat and he sings off key; but that's just what it looks like to you and me; honestly, in those moments he is so much more free; enjoying the melody of life in a tune of harmony; And of all the weight that his muscles can lift; don't compare to the gains that her love gives; If love is a muscle, he's the strongest of men by far; as he sings and dances to the love of his heart and stars. hook: Love is a muscle; he flexes every day; a long-lasting strength that will never go away; Love is a muscle, it's the strongest by far; and he gets it from the love of his heart and stars.