[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala and Dave Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I'm joined by Dave (he/him) and Marcus (they/them), yay! We were already talking in the green room about how everything is a trash fire. So I'm not even going to ask how everybody is. 00:20.28 Marcus Um, oh my God yeah. 00:20.32 Jala and Dave We had a conversation about this? Um, however, it is true that we are all together and we all enjoy each other's company and we can have a nice time talking about the subject of internet and identity which is real cool because all of us met via the internet in the first place. So. I think this is going to be a fun conversation to have um, so before we get into everything I want to go ahead and let you talk about the things that you are doing currently Marcus I know you were on the last episode talking about. Ah, little bit about your animation project. But if you want to recap that real quick for folks who didn't listen to that 1. 01:02.40 Marcus Sure, yeah, okay, so um, little personal animation project a little passion project I'm working on is a fan animation based on ah the dimension 20 dungeons and dragons live action actual play series. Ah, specifically their story called the unsleeping city which is about it's about dungeons and dragons and magic and mystery and everything in modern day New York and it's really fun I've been putting it together I just had a major update last week which came together pretty well. Um I have a gofundme of course to try and help to you know fund the project because my day job isn't my day job doesn't leave enough at the end of it to really seriously fund a project. It's a project I'm gonna get done regardless but the more help I have the better. Um. Also you know, ah other things that are going on I'm just trying to trying to get back into the world of animation at large in general. So this is part of that. Um, and you know applying for applying for jobs and things. Oh so actually this is interesting. So ah something I just did yesterday a thing I applied for. Which if I get it would be really exciting honestly, any of these if I get them would be really exciting but this one in particular is I applied to join what's called avatar academy which is a thing being put on by Mike Ah Brian Knetsky Michael D Martino of avatar the last Airbender fame. 02:33.33 Marcus Because they want to put together a team of animators for their next series. So yeah, so if I so it's a paid thing too. Basically I'd be flown out to to Burbank to live there for like six months plus and 02:39.73 Jala and Dave That's cool. 02:51.11 Marcus You know and just learn and animate with all these other people and be paid to do it which would be amazing So that would be. You're really cool if I got that so we'll see. Yeah. 02:57.40 Jala and Dave Um, awesome yeah well yeah, fingers crossed for that. So yeah, we will have a link in the show notes for your project and all of your other stuff as well as usual. 03:09.92 Jala and Dave And Dave do you want to tell everybody about what monster dear monster our sister show is sure so monster dear monster is basically a podcast where we take a look at monsters and it's not necessarily just monsters but any kind of critters or people if they're monsters in the media. And figure out out of current popular culture where those ideas came from and contrast them as the iterations of that. Ah, go forward so say we look at vampires. We'll take a look at the original folkloric origins of that and then. Different movies or books that have kind of taken that forward and how that's changed over time right? right? and here coming up soon. You're going to be having ah your first lies of pe like by this time this episode comes out. You're going to already have like at least a couple of episodes of lies of Pete out already. 04:05.92 Jala and Dave Yeah, we'll be doing a lower playthrough of the current Liza P video game and weekly kind of exploring each of the zones and discussing sort of what's going on in that world because it's a steampunk take on Pinocchio. Ah, with a dash of political int entry kind of thrown in. Yeah I'm really looking forward definitely to hearing more about that. Ah, because all I know is that I am sitting there trying to play dishonored for eventually having that on my podcast. And while I'm sitting there playing my game I'm just hearing you go I think just drop your control I have I have curses for these puppets they they are cursed and I'm cursing them extra with very violent breathing. 04:59.29 Jala and Dave So that's that's where we are at with that. So yeah, definitely check that out that's at monsterde.monster of course link in the show notes as usual and also on our coffee feed. So let me tell you about that so you can you can support this show and also monster deer monster by going to kao hyphen f I dot com. Fireheart media any either dropping us a 1 ne-time donation or subscribing and yes co has patron tearsers just like Patreon with extra stuff for subscribers any and all donations or give it a shout-out on the show. And are greatly appreciated and you can also rate and review us on your podcasting platform of choice. It gives me warm fuzzies every single time I get one of those and if I don't see it dm me and send it to me and I will absolutely squeeze over it because it makes me happy every time. Okay, ah, that's all I have to say about that and now we can go on with the show. So today we are talking about internet and identity I want to let everybody know first and foremost we started talking about the concept of social media in specific. As it relates to identity performance in episode number 5 way back of the ways on my show when I was on with serif so I strongly recommend that folks listen to that or re-listen to it if you haven't listened to it for a while. 06:25.62 Jala and Dave The link will be in the show notes in brief. We talked about Jungian persona Goffman's identity as performance and the concept of internet identity on social media explained as the glass bedroom. So ah, the briefest explanation of that is that. It is a public simultaneously public and private space. So people are having these conversations in a place like a forum on a social media threat or whatever that is a private conversation but it's happening in full view of everybody who decides to click on that and take a look at it and other people can of course. Either just voyeuristically observe this conversation or they can of course take part in that conversation insert themselves into that conversation which of course like there's etiquette that's developed around all of that in the first place but it is a thing that happens. So anyway, um, that is. Ah, very brief summary. We went into it a little bit ah during that episode so strong strong recommend that you guys all definitely check that out first. So Goffman's identity as performance is referencing so like. When we are crafting our online profiles we are making them in such a way that it is the way that we want people to interpret us. We are crafting this face that we are putting out there on the internet we are picking the best possible photo or the silliest possible photo or whatever kind of photo kind of fits. 07:57.91 Jala and Dave What we want to project out there. You know in some cases you might even have multiple profiles I know I have like at least 2 3 3 I've got fireart media on some platforms I have Jola John which is just my general and then on Instagram I also have my danceydance one. Ah, which is marked private just because I don't want a whole bunch of Dick Pics in my inbox from posting my butt out on the internet. So um, you know like there's that kind of a thing going but like you know what I post on the dancey dance instagram is not what I post. Anywhere else for example, so like that's an aspect of me but it is also an online persona separate from my other online personas. So ah, there are also lots of people that I know that have a public profile that is for everybody except for friends and family and you know like for for. Any internet searches that are done by potential. Um, yeah, employers or something like that or clients and then they have like a private one that's unassociated. You know, not associated whatsoever with their public one that is just for like friends and family or whatever their particular inner circle looks like so. And I know for example, um, Marcus and I both have like images of ourselves for our avatars but Dave you have an image of like your your centionot guy your your name like your handle online is is from like a movie because you are a big movie buff and then like the image that you have is. 09:30.67 Jala and Dave A guy from a movie and that's like your thing that you do so like tell us more about that. So that image in particular is kind of funny I didn't I was I was gifted it um in in my like 1 year on Tumblr. 09:50.64 Jala and Dave Many like a decade ago. Ah I used the handle from the character or I guess the name of the character. Um as my handle and I I was writing a lot of fan fiction. So I usually had like author. Handles separate from just my my regular correspondence because maybe I didn't want people to particularly to stumble across whatever thing I was writing in in public. Yeah, and so um, one of the guys that I um, just was talking to on Tumblr. Specialized in glitch art. He would take um photos and then run them through um, like photoshop and like he'd make the glitches by messing with the metadata. So. Everything he did was unique like you can't replicate it really and um, we were just talking back and forth and he he was like oh here's here's ah I found the logo of your character or whatever your avatar guy and so I've I've used that on Tumblr and then when I went to Twitter. Um I I wasn't sure how Twitter was functioning because it definitely was different than Tumblr and I just kind of brought that over unfortunately I also started my podcasts around the same time. So everybody that was talking to me only associated me with my my Twitter handle and. 11:21.61 Jala and Dave I've had guessed it on a few podcasts eventually where I was introducing myself. Oh I'm you know? ah I'm Dave or whatever I said when the intro popped in and they just I just heard crickets in like the background and they were like you mean senplus like no my name is Dave like no, you're only. 11:39.66 Jala and Dave Send Plus and you're also like this little red guy I'm like okay I I didn't understand that like that um Avatar was for people like that's who I was because I didn't put like that kind of stock into it. It was just a lark like oh it was a little gift. 11:59.60 Jala and Dave Ah, picture for me. Um, and then over time I just started using that everywhere because that I had unintentionally branded myself so I was like well I got to rep my brand and then I just used it all over the place and then now it's just stuck and I'm. 12:19.20 Jala and Dave I I have feel I tried to switch back because I realized there was a lot of authors and ah people that I were following there using professional like headshots and stuff and so I was like oh I'll put that on Twitter and then I just got like the worst blowback people were like who's this, where's that red guy's face and like. 12:25.91 Marcus Right. 12:38.32 Jala and Dave They just I didn't change the name I just changed the picture and they did not like that. It's like well I don't know to feel like do you not like my face like how about how do I feel about this. Um, they're like no and just be that other guy I'm like okay that's that's me now. So internet and identity in a nutshell. Ah you don't always get to pick. 12:57.41 Jala and Dave Ah, who you are on the internet. 13:00.22 Marcus Ah, that is so true. Oh my god. 13:01.60 Jala and Dave Ah, yeah, so so Marcus what is what is your experience with this like I've only ever ok bear in mind like my my first internet handle was jollalina on Aol and it was jollalina because I couldn't just be Jolla. And ah like everything else was taken so I just put jalla and then Lena like from Lena in verse from slayers because I like slayers a lot and people identified her short temper with me. So um, therefore I was jollalina but then after that I was jollic on and like that's because that's what everybody called me and then I just. 13:35.37 Jala and Dave Put Jala on as my screen name everywhere and it's just been my name over since. So even though I'm old as hell and I'm not a chan anymore but by any stretch of the imagination. 13:47.32 Jala and Dave I am I am still jollage on in places and that is that is my handle that is what I am known by from now on. Ah, but my my screen pit and screen avatar or guy ah is always different like I change it periodically so it's whatever but Marcus how about you like what's what's your experience with us. 14:03.38 Marcus Yeah, um, it's kind of all over the place. So I've never had 1 singular branded identity like I've never had just one name until recently because I did it on purpose and yeah people are like huh. But but so like when I was like. Unk been on the internet for a really long time. Um, and like when I was first on yeah, like Aol and on a freaking like linux server back in like 1993 when I was when I was first in college just to give everybody an idea how old I am podcast lore I'm a vampire. But so. 14:35.68 Jala and Dave This is true refer back to other episodes with Marcus you will hear. 14:38.90 Marcus Yeah, yeah, um, but so um, like 1 of my first. Oh I remember now god this is fun. Funny to think back on so like my very first screen name was was kuno of womananmo because. 14:58.26 Marcus Know I thought he was funny. Um, and so just everybody knew me as kuno for a really long time and then when I got an Aol account I had switched up I had been doing kung fu for a long time. So at that point I switched up to ah the name of a kung fu form called Moifa and people and like when I would go to anime conventions. There's this one guy in particular who never everybody else knew my name and called me by my name. They just called me Marcus. But this guy every time he showed up. It was like hey boy far I was just like you. You know you know and he would always say it so loudly too. He would always speak his. 15:37.48 Marcus Voice carried so far that it just spoke over everybody else and everybody's like who are you talking about? I'm like you talking about me but then um, you know then we get into like social media like you know like this is all going through. You know so Aol live journal you know, ah. College and school accounts and all kinds of stuff like that and I finally then I get on Instagram and I've had multiple Instagram accounts I had one that was just ah I don't remember what it was like no I had I had 1 account that oh oh oh oh okay, wait I gotta rewind a little bit. Because there's also fet life. That's a whole other problem. Um, so for those who don't know what fet life is imagine Facebook but it's all kinky people. Um, and so so I had my Facebook account. 16:31.18 Marcus I had 2 Facebook accounts at the time so I had my main Facebook account I ended up making a modeling Facebook account and I also had my my my fet life account and these of course are all 3 different names. So there was like there was just regular me. On the family friendly Facebook I had my modeling Facebook which 1 my modeling name I was using my middle name over there and then on and then on fetlife I was using I had multiple names. But at first it was Tiger Wonng which was based on the ah the old jademin kung fu comics. Ah you know because there's. Ah, the the you know mega the dragon and tiger gate series. So that. 17:07.68 Jala and Dave So ah, Dave is nodding and giggling quietly over there just by the way because he recognizes it. Oh sorry I have those those novels the there, the arts so good in that. 17:14.47 Marcus I thought Dave I thought Dave would recognize that right? Yeah, oh my god separate tangent I could go off on that anyway. Um, but so so I was Tiger Wong for a while. But um. 17:22.42 Jala and Dave Right. 17:30.69 Marcus And people started associating that I actually had a picture of I had found a picture of a tiger licking a pane of glasss on the internet somewhere and I was using that as my Instagram hand as met as my ah as a profile picture because I thought it was cute and so ah. 17:41.33 Jala and Dave Um, that's that's perfect. Yeah. 17:46.89 Marcus People associated with an actual tiger not with the jademan comics. Um, and then and then I switched over when I came out as non-binary I switched from that to spiral and people only knew me a spiral for like a long time to the point where. I was walking around in meatspace downtown Dc and this dude who I knew from the kink scene called out spiral as I walked by I was like what who wait? No you know, like raised my hackles up like so much I was like who. 18:24.26 Marcus Are you saying that out loud in here you know, ah out here in the streets. You know you know nobody's supposed to know what that name is and it was a guy I mean the only way anybody would know that is from the scene. So I knew I was like kind of safe in that way, but it was still weird to hear um and then ah. You know and then I stopped using then I stopped using that name I deleted my old fet life account and then basically right around the beginning of the pandemic I just started just going by my name just Marcus Rassan and um yeah it was a weird adjustment period for a lot of people. Um, one of my. 1 of my f lid my Instagram account got deleted by Instagram my modeling account got deleted because I was showing too much ass I guess I don't know and um and so I had to like switch everything over to my Marcus Rosan account but then I stopped modeling. so it's just like all right well nevermind um and so I was putting my art on there and then I switched like my Twitter handle to Marcus Rassan and then I switched like I switched everything to that. But I still have other Instagram accounts like I have my photography account which is under a different name. Ah, it's this mixed mrg photo and then I have a backup account which I think is just marcus g backup I forgot the name of it because I never look at it. Um, and ah, it's just really funny to me that I've gone through all this and like for the longest time for longest time people just didn't know my name. 19:54.67 Marcus Like my actual name for the longest time. Um, even people like through the kinks scene people I had had very intimate encounters with had no idea what my actual name was and I was like feel this feels wrong? Um, but like with Instagram specifically like a term I found out about kind of late in the game. 20:14.80 Marcus I guess is the idea of a finsta account the f in finsta standing for fake so like your Instagram and your fake Instagram but it's not actually a fake account. It's just the alternate account that only certain people get to see. And um, like I have more than 1 friend who has like you know their public persona where they post like work stuff and you know and like look at this wholesome thing from my job or like the family outing Selfie or something from like a sporting event they attended or whatever and then they have their other account where it's nothing but thirst traps. 20:46.56 Marcus And it's like you know, barely censored nudes and it's just like Okay, yeah, nice you know and like it's super private and they only have like you know they have not even Triple Digit followers on there because they allow so few people to look at it and um and it's just it's funny. Um. 21:04.17 Jala and Dave So I'll podge you right there real quick Marcus. So the the alt account thing like I mean a lot of people do that. But my favorite thing is say it's Twitter and say it's a politician and they forget. 21:05.38 Marcus But yeah, like I mean. 21:22.83 Jala and Dave What account they're logged in and they post something and then everything's over and it's fantastic, right? right. 21:24.83 Marcus Um, oh my God I Wish that would happen more often. Ah. 21:35.76 Marcus At that time of recording the Lauren Beaubert incident has happened and I bet she wishes that wasn't all over Twitter but anyway. 21:42.20 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, right, right? Yeah, so it's it's interesting that you say it that way because like um, you know the only like I've never had like ah an alt thirst trap all you know insa or anything like that. Although like I suppose you could say my pole dance slash dancing. Ah, insta is the thirst trap one because I like sexy pole dance and I'm not wearing a whole lot of clothing for that. But it's also marked private and I don't let just anybody in there because again I don't want a whole bunch of Dick Pics in my headbox. 22:11.40 Jala and Dave So um, but yeah, like but that is is just like dancedance stuff because I liked to danceydance and originally it was on my main Instagram and I ended up because I have people on there who are like younger and I have family and I have like even older people who are like. Clients of mine when it comes to the fitness stuff. They don't want to see it so it's like okay well I I will separate it and I will put it over there and I will also make it where like you can't just stumble across it or have it recommended to you because it is a private account so you know. 22:42.48 Marcus Right? exactly. 22:45.68 Jala and Dave So like I did that just for the fact that I don't want to make some of the folks who are just there for like watching me do fitness and smile and post pictures of my dog. You know like it just that's over there. You know for the people who want ah you know the whole picture. You can just follow a couple of accounts. You know so. 23:01.95 Marcus Right? Yeah, it's interesting that like what I find interesting is that there are people who have you know the business account and the family account because to me that's you know for me that that seems like it would just be the same thing like you know you have. 23:19.82 Marcus You show your work stuff and like family and all the wholesome normal safe for work. You know, not you know, not niche interest kind of things you know and then yeah and then they have like you know then they have the other thing where they are like I don't know they collect bobbleheads or something I don't know. But. 23:35.93 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, so so like ah insofar as the idea of like identity as performance so we are all. Performing our identity in each of the individual little slots that we've got like you have your fet life account. You have your different Facebooks for different things. So like you know you know if somebody has like a Linkedin or whatever you're doing specific things and performing a specific way for that and so like you know they're different aspects of each. 24:03.97 Jala and Dave Person that is being presented. Um for me like it's It's really like low maintenance because everything that I post on any of my accounts is just me being me like. 24:15.78 Jala and Dave You know if if I if I switch jobs suddenly somebody's going to like Google me and find all this stuff that I do and that's fine. They're just going to have to deal with all the stuff that I do whatever? Um, um. 24:27.40 Marcus Right? I did have that just to go home with what Dave was saying earlier I did actually have one I did make 1 mistake because my Instagram account and my Facebook accounts were linked at one point and ah there was a very tragic day. Not tragic. It was funny but also just like oops. 24:44.23 Marcus Where my modeling account was linked to my family friendly Facebook account and I ended up posting something in my modeling account and it simultaneously posted my naked ass to my family account and I had to deal with that and that was just really funny. So. 24:59.82 Jala and Dave Ah, but yeah, yeah, so but um, yeah, so like my my personal experience of performing my identity like okay about the the about The only thing that I can say about like my performance on social media versus. 25:16.86 Jala and Dave If you just are talking to me like if you're talking to me in my Discord server versus or like in a ah Dm to me or something versus we're on the phone or or whatever versus like um, just seeing my accounts like if I'm going through some shit like I am right now I don't usually post. 25:36.90 Jala and Dave Anything about it or if I do it's just like it's been a hard week but I got the fitness in and that's all about all I all that I say um there was a point ah many many years ago when everyone was young to the internet and stupid where I might express more of my feelings or whatever. Um publicly. 25:54.56 Jala and Dave But I don't really do that anymore and um, you know like even in my Discord server if I don't want people to know I just won't you know I will just continue to hide it. You know? um. 26:05.11 Marcus Right? yeah. 26:08.26 Jala and Dave And but I try to be as as true to who I am as I can when I'm talking to people so like although I'm not going to put it in my social media feed because people don't want to get hit with problems when they're going to their Instagram to look at cute puppies for example, um. 26:25.40 Jala and Dave You know and like to see their friends. You know doing whatever because that soothes them I know I'm one of those people who has emergency puppies that I look at you know, Um, so like I I don't put it there for the the sake of the people who I know are going there for like respite right in the middle of their their stressful day or whatever. 26:31.87 Marcus Right? Yeah yeah. 26:44.95 Jala and Dave Um, so as long as I can handle it. You're only going to hear it if you're talking to me regularly. Um, and that's about the only real change between me as I am anywhere versus me on social media and you know like. I just keep the dancey dance photos and videos and stuff to the dancey dance account and that's about the only change that I make personally but um, Dave how about you I know you don't really post on social media. So I'm curious. Yeah I don't I I exist on there. Like nebulously I don't do much posting. There's some years where I may be a little bit more active and I interact more but that usually like exhausts me. So it's a limited ah engagement really i'll. I can go like oh here's ah, a week or something where I talk to a few people a little bit more than normal and then it just turns into me like reposting stuff constantly like I try I try to boost other people's things. So if they have a project or something that they're doing just try to give more reach to that and. But I will say it's kind of based on the decade so going back a few years. Um I was more active like as a teenager on Aol and. 28:11.96 Jala and Dave Then that migrated into kind of geocities and that was probably the most time I spent just in chat rooms I felt that because that's ah, specifically a live conversation I can't just like back out of that unless I Leave. So I So I was able to spend more time doing that but generally a lot of that was in um, wasn't like topical interests. It was more like role-playing or things so I didn't have to be me and then the me that was there was more talk on it. 28:47.32 Jala and Dave And I could I could express myself a little bit more um or explore like gender identity or something I didn't have to always be who I was in meatspace I can I can do something else with this and then ah unfortunately geocities just like was folded under and they were they really never. 29:06.83 Jala and Dave Ah, social media kind of took over that space I never felt that there was a replacement for like those live chat rooms. Ah not not in a not in the sense that it was like a monolithic structure for a while. 29:19.68 Jala and Dave Um, so those days kind of went away and with that like my come like the the comfortable space kind of I felt was taken from me so I existed mainly as ah, the not me fan fiction author and that was like a good decade. 29:39.25 Jala and Dave And then switched to like well I went to Tumblr and a few things. It's like oh I can I can post like some art or something here and talk to people about that or about other interests and but it's on my own terms because it's just like ah so social media is like. Turn based posting and I well I also got involved in things like um play by email games. Um, and every now and then on forum based or Bolton Board kind of game things the play by email. 30:18.54 Jala and Dave That was the most comfortable because it was on my own schedule and like I've always been full time working full time school just feel like forever. So I was able to put stuff up and like okay someone can get back to me in like a day or later or whatever and then there's no stress really involved in that. 30:37.43 Jala and Dave And I would that was more comfortable to me. But yeah, so these days it's because before everything was tied specifically to a computer you had to have a computer access to get to the thing. So. Unless you had a Pc at home or you went all the way to like the University Library. Ah, your access was limited. Um, but with the with the surge of smartphones. Your access is in your pocket. It's with you like. 31:11.42 Jala and Dave All the time and this isn't for everybody? Um, but a large percentage of the populace worldwide has like internet at their fingertips all the time and you're always plugged in and you're always on and that's exhausting and that. 31:30.92 Jala and Dave Environment is a lot different than it was like say ten years ago maybe fifteen ten Tens probably a little bit too close. Um these days but it was different for sure. 31:36.11 Marcus Hoof begged him. I don't know even 10 year even ten years ago it was different by wide margin. Yeah. 31:47.67 Jala and Dave Yeah I will say that when I was on Aol I was always roleplaying as soon as I found out that you could do roleplaying online I was playing d and d games I was also doing just like freelance anime and video game role-playing stuff. And um, you mentioned gender identity exploration I had played different characters of various gender identities and as a result actually when I was playing a male character once everybody assumed that I was a guy and I just I haven't talked about this before but I just rolled with it when everybody assumed I was a guy because I was like ah. If I if all these people are like behaving and acting because they they think I'm a dude and I suddenly tell them I'm not a dude that's going to make them real upset. So I just was like you know what? I'm probably not going to talk to these people very very long I'm just going to go with it. And then it turns out that I role role-played with these people for a very long fucking time. Um, and so for a very long time I was role-playing a dude role-playing a male character on the internet. So um, you know and and that actually felt very satisfactory to me and gratifying to me. 32:55.90 Jala and Dave Because of my own actual like struggles with my own gender Dysphoria So Um, and I know that that is a pretty common experience. A lot of people. It's been documented in a bunch of different books about you know the evolution of identity and internet stuff. That people have been toying with that since before there was internet people were doing that you know ah with with letters and stuff that they would write back and forth back in the Snail Mail days. So like ah, that's always been a kind of a thing that people have explored whenever they have the opportunity. 33:28.65 Jala and Dave Um, So yeah, that definitely was a thing for me and role-playing with people was comfortable and fun. Ah because it was like especially if it's like freelance you're basically writing a fan fiction back and Forth. You're coauthoring a fan fiction and if you have somebody that you're playing with who is really good at writing. Then that can be really really cool and like you know you start getting into Oh Well when you're not together and role-playing then you're writing vignettes that happen like you know outside of the main narrative that you're doing and this that and the other and it gets really cool. But um I Definitely miss those days of having that. 34:03.55 Jala and Dave Because then I too switched over to play Bymail kinds of things and then eventually that fizzled out too and it's like these days I don't have enough time you know, even though like my phone is always at my hand. Um like I have time to reply to people when they talk to me but I don't have time to compose like. The longwinded thoughtful posts that I used to do once upon a time when we were doing all of this in-depth roleplaying stuff. So I Do definitely have like a big gaping hole in my heart where the the roleplaying used to be for sure but marcu did you do roleplaying online. 34:38.51 Marcus Yeah, now that that's right I did actually okay in a weird kind of way though. So not the way that y'all are talking. But um I but before the Zoom days back when Google plus was a thing. Um. For those who don't remember Google Google had their very short lived social media platform. Ah and it we I was with a bunch of friends of mine and we role played via. You know we role played via like video chat sort of video chat we had like the shared screen with like the map and everything on it. 35:12.95 Marcus And ah 1 game in particular that my friend made up was a game where men did not exist. So um, all of us had varying gender identities but we but none of us nobody could play men. Everybody had to play a woman and so we were like. That was a weird thing to reckon with for some of us. Um me you know I had come out nonbinary by that point. But then also like um 1 like 1 of my very close friends was a trans man and now has to play a woman in this game and he's like this is weird. Um and then and like. Everybody's like everybody dealt with it in their own interesting ways. Um, and that was just ah, a strange kind of experiment in dealing with gender identity in a complete you know in a complete fantasy world. Of course you know you have all kinds of freedom like that. But it was very. Was very interesting and the story actually delved into like gender like the story actually took place in the game delved into like gender identity stuff and like why does it matter if you're you know if men don't exist and also. Why don't men exist in this world and going into like the history of that universe and how it all worked out and like how do people reproduce you know it was. It was a really it was ah it was an interesting interesting little experiment. So yeah. 36:47.74 Marcus Oh no, oh all, right? Um, okay sorry but oh. 36:50.86 Jala and Dave No, it's okay, hang on. Um sorry we be our bead for a second there? Um, yeah, so 1 thing I will just a short interjection really is um when I was writing fan fictionction. A lot of the reviews over the years I was doing that almost always um, like assumed I was female I guess and I was like okay I don't see that I have to that I was. 37:25.49 Jala and Dave Not really questioning my writing but trying to like look at what in my writing style or what in my the things I was putting out on the internet that people were reading like what was come. What was like getting them to think that and. 37:44.59 Marcus Um, you maybe just that you didn't I mean that's one way but maybe there's there's the possibility. Okay, how did you write woman characters that was Ca see not to tell that is a tell if you write. 37:45.27 Jala and Dave Ah, like because I have a range of emotions in my characters I like. 37:55.21 Jala and Dave Um I like they were people. Yeah. 38:00.83 Marcus If you write women characters like their actual people and not like you know she breasted boobily down the stairs and you know rested boobly toward the stairs and titted downwards. You know? yeah. 38:06.89 Jala and Dave Yeah, that old that old chestnut. Um, and that's that's the big thing is when I'm when I'm writing or even just general in and in internet. Um, it's very like visual in my head. So I'm kind of like watching a movie and I'm just. 38:23.24 Jala and Dave Transcribing what I'm seeing so they're just people and yeah, apparently not that I found out later. 38:24.79 Marcus Ah, yeah, yeah, so you don't you don't write like a dude. That's yeah, there is there is an entire page of like and you can you can find these are multiple pages at this point I'm certain but there is. Um, particularly there was this one page that just listed all of the strange ways that men described women in science fiction in particular going back to like ah you know like the you know going back to like the pulp. Pulp science fiction days and like the Edgar Rice Burroughs and things like that I mean he did an okay job but other but there are other people I'm trying to remember I don't remember what story it was but like there was this one story where this woman's breast size would change with her mood like literally and. So beautiful. 39:20.33 Jala and Dave Ah, the face Dave's got right now I wish he could see it. Well. 39:23.67 Marcus Um, yeah, like basically when she was happy she would like she would like swell up a cup size at least literally. Yeah, she would yeah so there was it was like this whole thing like you know or is a thing is like yeah like yeah. 39:28.38 Jala and Dave She she put perk up. Oh. Um, is she sad they deflate like. 39:41.64 Marcus Yeah, literally it deflated with emotion like I am not kidding you. It's real bad but this was like I I'm trying to remember the name of the author. It's killing me. Um. 39:46.90 Jala and Dave That's bad. Okay. 39:54.35 Jala and Dave Well, we're going to have to find that list or one like it so we can add it to the show notes because I think everybody needs to see that. Ah, yeah, yeah, Wow. So um, so so um. 40:08.55 Jala and Dave When it comes to our experiences with the internet. All of us are older ah insofar as like ah we grew up first in an age without internet before the internet was ah all over the place and so ah, we came to it like for me I really so. 40:27.77 Jala and Dave Started on the internet like around 13 or 14 is when I started having internet access. So like I know that's still a young and impressionable age. But at the same time I still had my entire childhood up until my teenage years. Um without internet as a thing. In my life and Dave was it about that same time for you. Yeah, it was about that same so 93 I believe was when we got our um internet access and then I remember specifically ah was this seventh grade I think one ah of my friends was like. 41:06.37 Jala and Dave I have an email do you have an email and I was like what the fuck is an email that that made there's no context I was like email. No and I was like I got this Aol disc though or I guess it was a floppy. Yeah wow the floppies boy yeah 41:17.79 Marcus Oh my God all back in the day. 41:24.94 Jala and Dave We came to it later. Ah, we didn't have money for a computer let alone trying to subscribe to Aol for a very long time I think it was like 95 or maybe even 96 when I got on the internet. So um, it was a little bit later I wasn't in well I musta I don't know. Maybe we were on earlier but I definitely wasn't in floppy era I had a disc. So. 41:51.45 Marcus Yeah, no, we let's see I was on. Okay, so yeah, but my first real fory into the internet was when I was it was my first year of college which was night to 93? Um, and so yeah, they I lived in I lived in computer science house. Ah, on this on this campus. So what they had all they had like all these computer labs set up and they're all black and white screens you know and you know we're all you know everybody was on the fledgling internet at the time and yeah it was really the only people in chat rooms were other college students. 42:24.72 Jala and Dave Yeah, so here's here's some I may goof the middle number up but we went from 144 to 36 to 56 k yeah and people we have no idea what that is those are the bod rates for like the landline. 42:44.31 Jala and Dave Internets and they were jumps of magnitude to go from each one like oh this this? um I think they were still I think there was Jpegs Maybe this this is loading faster. You know maps it? Well it was bit maps. Yeah, um. 43:03.33 Jala and Dave And you just wait and it's like oh in 2 minutes later I can see this image but it's so fast. it's it's ah unfurling on my screen. Yeah little wine by line as it came up no less. But yeah like I wasn't in 144 that was like if the internet connection was really really bad. 43:10.87 Marcus Um, right I remember the the first and yep. 43:22.99 Jala and Dave Um, it was like ah 28 something or 54 for for when I was on on average. But yeah, sorry Marcus you were saying. 43:30.24 Marcus I know well I was just going to say 2 so 2 funny things. Yeah I remember you know watching an image load and it it would start at the top and you see the liness a kind of go down the screen as the image is loading slowly but surely um, which was really funny for the early days of internet porn. Um. But then because it was just like scans of Playboy Magazine but but the other funny thing the very first animated Gif I ever saw took 2 hours to download. It was. 44:03.82 Marcus 1 hunt it was like it was a 100 by 200 pixel ah friin 16 color animated Gif of some chick from baywatch. It took 2 hours to download. It was 3 seconds long 44:14.83 Jala and Dave Wow. 44:23.28 Marcus Like at like ten frames a second or something like something ridiculous like that I was like what? well. 44:28.69 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, so um I will I will stop and say a book that Dave and I read and prep for the show. Ah, which we're actually probably not going to talk a whole heck of a lot about but definitely recommend ah is ah how sex changed the internet and the internet changed sex in unexpected history. 44:43.96 Marcus Um, oh I Want to read that from. Okay. 44:45.62 Jala and Dave Yes, ah by Samantha Cole I will definitely put a link in the show notes to that um another one that I listened to was how the internet happened from Netscape to the iphone by Brian Mccullough and that is yeah that one is also a really good book especially when you have it in tandem with the other one because basically. 45:04.79 Jala and Dave People been horny on the internet since before the internet was the thing and so the first thing that was on the internet was like ooh let's take this Playboy Centerold and and send her face out everywhere. Um, so like you know the the internet like back in the day back in the day. 45:20.62 Jala and Dave Before Internet was like a personal Pc computing thing people had to dial in to talk on Bulletin Board systems to an operator a person who would type things and they would do this and have like sexy jet via this operator on the telephone that they had to call. 45:39.44 Jala and Dave Put it on the on the Bulletin board system. So like ah it's wild I Definitely recommend ah reading this book. It's It's very good. Um, oh yeah, so so yeah, um, but kind of. 45:40.33 Marcus Oh my god. 45:50.15 Marcus Um, and I suddenly have nostalgia for news groups and. 45:57.60 Jala and Dave Part of my reason for bringing up like ok so we were a little bit older I've been granted Dave and I were like ah teenage years formative years, but we still had all of our childhood before that. Um, the reason I mention this is because of course nowadays the thing that. I'm curious about and a lot of people are curious about is like how is it to grow up in the age of the internet when all you know is internet like how are my niece and nephew and Dave's you know everybody and you know Marcus your kid and everything like. 46:22.63 Marcus Right? Yeah right. 46:27.53 Jala and Dave You know how are these people growing up in this situation where um, you know like for example, a lot of kids can't parse the difference between what is an edited photo with filters or photoshop. 46:42.19 Jala and Dave Or what have you snapchat or or whatever Snapchat's like outdated at this point everything has filters these days but you know what I mean ah versus like an unedited thing because you can even edit your videos and stuff to make them look. 46:49.27 Marcus I'm afraid. 46:58.81 Jala and Dave Fancy and cute and pretty no matter what and so like these these people are like it's human nature to compare yourself to other people. That's just a thing we all do but like when you are a young kid and you are young and impressionable and you know like you have the ability to get Cyber Bullied. You know, not just bullied in person but bullied on the internet and you have the ability to see all of these different people. Um and like compare yourself and go Oh I wish I was that pretty not knowing that that person is highly highly edited in makeup and whatever like. 47:34.91 Jala and Dave You know that that does something to these kids who grow up and then too they're always connected. They're always on you know, um I know that there have been a lot of studies showing that like the rates of depression and anxiety have shot up a lot and that's probably because. 47:50.82 Jala and Dave People don't have a resting place a quiet place away from their phones. They're always connected you know and that that can do some real damage to people in my opinion. 48:01.60 Marcus That is so true. Um, one of the things that tangentially related to this one of the things that I kind of cling to is the idea of still having a ah separate Blu-ray Dvd Player um I get laughed at about that. But then inevitably the internet goes out and I'm just like oh can't watch a movie now. Can you but yeah, no, it's interesting because like um like you know my daughter is just turned fourteen a month ago and she you know she has a weird kind of like. 48:36.98 Marcus Bootleg ah bootleg and connection on to Tiktok like she doesn't have a Tiktok account. She doesn't have any kind of social media accounts or anything like that she knows what everything is, um, but like she doesn't have access to Tiktok directly. She the only way she knows anything about. Tiktok specifically is through compilation videos on Youtube and weirdly on Spotify I don't know how they do that. But um, so like she knows some like Tiktok personalities and everything but like from what I've seen because I do keep an eye on it. Most of what she's looking at on like Youtube and anywhere else is just she's hyper fixated on Doncan Rumpa oh yeah 49:22.43 Jala and Dave Um, well that is sure a thing to be hyper fixated on. 49:25.47 Marcus Yeah, so like most of what she's looking at is stuff that's dun and rompo related. Um and you know other like just kind of silly thankfully ageappropriate trends like she follows a lot of there's a lot of like you know. Ah, youtubers who make you know like kids' content and stuff about like video games and things like that. So. That's thankfully where where her interest has remained and I am actually pretty adamant about her not having a social media account. And I'm pretty sure this is the only thing that me and the other co-parents agree with again podcast podcast Laura but also irl Laura I am divorced um my my kid's stepfather does not like me at all and the feeling is mutual but I'm pretty and so we disagree on a lot of things when it comes to how we raise this kid. But um, one of the things I'm pretty sure we actually agree on is that we do not want her to have a social media account until she's kind of reached the point where we feel like her own identity won't be unhealthily influenced by what she sees or at least at a point where she feels okay talking about things. Whether I bring it up or she brings it up or whatever and she's pretty good about bringing up stuff that concerns her to me which I'm glad that we have that kind of like comfort level. But yeah like I don't want her especially right now because she is like she's a giant. She's she's. 50:56.80 Marcus Already almost as tall as me. She's only fourteen years old she's still figuring out all kinds of identity stuff for herself. You know her body is still developing. There's all kinds of things going on and so you know I don't want her to be unduly influenced by like you know celebrities or like teen stars or anything like that. Or anything really on social media I want her to actually be pretty solid in her identity and fairly confident in herself before that kind of influence can really set in you know. 51:26.99 Jala and Dave That's that's probably the most sound parenting ah thing that I've I've heard when it comes to like a stance on on the social media front like my niece just turned. Ten this year and she got a little firm little phone. It's like a little burner phone. It's not like a super super smartphone. She does not have any accounts anywhere. Um, she has it mostly so she can call me and ah her uncle Dave and. 51:57.56 Jala and Dave You know, aelo and Awela and you know talk to us about the problems in life. Oh man. Ah, she called us the other day and was like what of the problems of life is and it's like the best thing ever. There's going to be a time where she's going to hate us and think we're stupid but like right now she still thinks we're cool. So um, you know it's very charming and cute. Um. 52:16.50 Marcus I I keep waiting for the day that Eve hates my guts and it hasn't happened yet. So I'm just like okay no right? Yeah, you like me. 52:17.36 Jala and Dave But then she tries to call me every day but anyway, but. 52:23.81 Jala and Dave Yeah Fingers crossed I don't know Maybe we'll always be hip and cool because we're over here I don't know right right? We're not in in the immediate vicinity Now my um, my nephew. He's 10 Ah. And so he grew up with like a little like a tablet and mostly my mom's phone. He would just take it and it's just like oh you have my phone let me have my phone back because he just ah, that's just how he attached to things. Um, but he was I'm trying to think maybe 3 3 or 4 and could operate the phones better than like my mom and and if if he if he happened to so get your phone and you weren't watching um enjoy having a bunch of apps put on there. 53:16.62 Jala and Dave And roblox somehow. But oh man roblox? Yeah um, my nephew loves roblox and my niece loves minecraft and um, my nephew. He. Is a little of a very smart little child and he will do wiki dives he reads Wikipedia and he goes on rabbit holes on Wikipedia and he went like my sister was folding clothes one day and I'm just going to tell this one story and then I swear we're going to go back to internet and identity. But like this is just too cute. 53:47.71 Jala and Dave Um, so my sister's sitting there folding clothes got all the folk clothes on the bed and then all of a sudden he comes in and he's all upset and she's like oh what's wrong little buddy you know and he's like I really mean he like makes this chopping motion with his hand. Putting 1 you know one hand into the palm of the other one I really want what was it Syria to be or turkey to become part of Syria or something I don't know something wild like that we like he's just you know and then ah you know Ah, my sister's just like well honey that's up to them. Yeah. 54:07.72 Marcus Oh my god. 54:20.26 Jala and Dave And all this other mess but like he did a a whole little wiki dive and was just like I want Palestine in Syria to be friends and and become part or something I don't know it was something about like Middle East politics that just was mindful and we're just like what. 54:35.80 Marcus Um, that is amazing. 54:37.91 Jala and Dave So that's that's my family mother. You must call the consulate. Yeah, ah, he's that he's also in the little chess club and a boy scout. He's very cute. 54:55.42 Jala and Dave Anyway, none of none of ah, Dave's people or my people. Um, you know, like from our respective genetic families um have had an issue come up with that yet. But like I definitely know that it you know like it's going to be interesting to see what happens. As they get older and as they you know come into teenhood come into adulthood because not only like like we mentioned um, not only do they have the problem with seeing stuff on the internet and not possibly not being able to parse what is real. I will put a pin in that and say to my dad doesn't know what's real and what's not real on the internet either. You know so older people also don't know what's going on. Um, and that's a big danger to it's it's a very much a problem my my grandmother like lives on Facebook on her phone. 55:50.85 Jala and Dave And she just scrolls and scrolls and scrolls and she'll stop and um because I was taking care of them for a period of time and she would like show me news articles but they were clearly clickbait like not real news things and she was like look at what's happening here. My grandma this is not. Real and so I'd have to explain to her like why and what to look for but that doesn't stick and the next day she's like how I don't know any of these people. How are they all my friends and how come they're all talking to me grandma. what did you tell what did you judge it's like well I was scrolling and I think. 56:23.99 Marcus Right. 56:29.60 Jala and Dave My sister someone someone else was following Grandma on Facebook because um I don't have Facebook and they were like we need to look at your account Grandma because you're you're sending everybody strange messages and she was like accidentally she's just scrolling. But. 56:48.89 Jala and Dave Um, her she's has troubled on the phone like like navigating it. So she's constantly like reposting things and things she's just scrolling and it was it was weird stuff and everyone in the family was like do we need to talk to Grandma because intervention. Yeah. 57:08.11 Marcus Oh my god. 57:08.73 Jala and Dave Oh wow! Wow yeah, so so ah, its acidity. Um mean yeah yeah, so something I do want to also ah suggest to another book that I read in prep for this was the internet of us knowing more and understanding less in the age of big data by Michael Patrick Lynch and that book. 57:27.24 Jala and Dave Kind of goes into the internet of things and how everything is connected to the internet now your smart watch your phone your house can be wired to be on the internet your Amazon echo or whatever like all of these things are connected to the internet and always feeding you information constantly impinging you about different stuff and um. 57:35.92 Marcus Right. 57:47.24 Jala and Dave Like the book delves into a bunch of different things including philosophies and ah outlooks on on what is personhood and how you know what is truth and all of this but it also is talking about how the way that we identify truth anymore has been changed like the way that we prioritize. Truth and fact checking is not the same anymore because people yeah do the Google knowing right? Google knowing is when people just Google it and then they're like the first thing that pops up that's the answer and that's what they go with and they don't bother to check what is this website that they're looking at. 58:25.99 Jala and Dave Is it a credible source where are they getting their information does it have citations this that and the other they're not vetting that source material. They are just going off of the first thing that Google feeds them which of course can be anything you know? ah. 58:40.55 Marcus Right? Oh my god uncle my uncle sent me this thing and it's always an uncle right? You know uncle or a grandparent sent you some weird shit. Um, but no like right? you want to know my dad is thankfully not on Facebook at all. But yeah, like ah my my parents. 58:58.19 Marcus Thank god my parents are not really on Facebook they get at anything they find out about me that I have posted on Facebook they find out through my other relatives my aunts and uncles which is I don't feel comfortable with that at all. But anyway my uncle ah sent me. It was some like weird rumor conspiracy. Kind of thing and I was like that sounds like bullshit like this sounds like this sounds like the you know the drugs in Halloween candy razor blades and apples kind of you know satanic panic level stuff that we had in the 80 s right and I was like this doesn't sound right and I just I just did a quick search. On the thing and I went to snopes because you know you can usually find out if something's real if you go on Snopes um, but I just looked around real quick I was like nope. Okay, first of all the thing you sent me is 3 years old second of all like so it's one. It wasn't current and the other thing is that it was a complete fabrication. And it was a conspiracy theory that somebody made up at the beginning of the pandemic and I was just out to scare people I was like no no, no, it's like do you know? how to fact, check stuff. Do you know like why? where did you get this from. It's like well my sister sent it to me is like okay where did she get it from. 01:00:08.20 Jala and Dave Yeah, and that's that's part of it too is because part of the way that people quote unquote vet stuff is by trusting sources that are given to them by people that they know and care about and you know have esteem for. 01:00:24.22 Jala and Dave And so they're like oh well my sister sent it to me. Why would she send me something that's not true. You know well because she didn't check it either. She just impulsively like responded because that's what it's tailored to do because everything on the internet is about clicks and likes and. 01:00:40.17 Jala and Dave You know sharing and you know like scare Factor. You know this one weird trick and so On. So ah, it's all geared just to get like your attention and then everybody reacts you know shooting from the hip without having any any way to do that and like even even if you try to fact, check stuff. It's not even easy most of the time to fact, check stuff unless it's something that's citing specifically like books or journals you know, like scientific journals or something like that like otherwise it's very hard because even Credible. You know quote Unquote credible News sources. 01:01:19.48 Jala and Dave We'll use doctored images or they will use images that are from actually a different incident altogether and then just put it in there like um one of the books I was reading the the 1 um one like I think it was the internet of us was talking about how there were lots of instances of. Um, you know stuff during nine eleven. For example, the images a lot of the images were like not images that were actually from you know the places that they were allegedly from or whatever and you know like they're just so you know doing anything that looks sensational and looks striking and using that you know. 01:01:39.50 Marcus Hand number memory. 01:01:57.45 Jala and Dave Just because who's going to know you know so. 01:01:59.79 Marcus Right? Exactly there is a similar thing that I actually fell victim to at the beginning of the pandemic talking about ah it was one of the 5 g conspiracy theories right? and I was just kind of like huh. That's weird. And I totally because you know everybody was panicking at the beginning of the pandemic and I was no different. you know um you know I believed it and I just kind of ha and I shared it and then like 2 or 3 days later I was like wait a second. You know I was like hang on hang on hang on and I went back and I looked I was like oh no, this is this is crap all right? Let me let me calm the fuck down you know because yeah, it was just it was such and like and conspiracy theorists and the people who peddle those things and especially the people who make money grifting with false information. 01:02:46.18 Marcus Use the internet and you know stressful time periods like that they take advantage of people's insecurities to do that and that's just incredibly fucked up too. 01:02:55.45 Jala and Dave Right? And 1 of the podcasts that I listen to is scam goddess if you don't listen to it. Highly recommend it Lacy Moseley and her guests are wonderful and Dave and I love listening to it. Ah it it basically is devoted to scams and frauds as you might imagine by the name. 01:03:12.67 Jala and Dave And so like 1 of the things they talk about on there. A lot is like even if people are smart intelligent people. You know they're usually pretty you know savvy and and with it depending on your despot meter. How desperate you are. 01:03:28.00 Jala and Dave You know to get out of the situation. Get this person out of your face to resolve the issue. Whatever your situation is like the the scammers are trying to put you into this despot situation desperate situation where you just want an out and then the easiest thing for you to do is to go along with the scam. 01:03:47.38 Jala and Dave Is what they're trying to set it up to be um, putting you under pressure so that you know in that like a lot of scam emails and stuff do that too. You know like it's like oh this is from your bank. You know you've overdrafted. However, much you need to log in right now and then they get your information because you didn't check the Url or whatever. 01:04:06.74 Jala and Dave So um, so is that kind of a thing. So yeah, um, everything the way people suck towards each other just kind of evolves as the internet evolves and ah the something that I was talking to Dave about a little while ago. Um you know like on ah a different day ah prepping for this was about how. 01:04:25.82 Jala and Dave There is your you know your personal identity as you are in the world but also your online internet identity or identities are also kind of like their own separate thing and you can have like your online internet identity threatened in a way that. Your physical body and physical livelihood and everything are not threatened. You know, um and it can be threatened too. It's like a whole different ah way of being exposed out in the world. You know? Um, so it kind of is interesting that you know it really is a fully functioning. 01:05:04.74 Jala and Dave Identity in a whole different space. 01:05:06.42 Marcus Right? Yeah, No I mean as much as people don't want to like buy into it and I get it like the virtual world is real like social constructions are still. They're still constructed so we still have to deal with them once they're there. And you know we've made you know we've made this entire other world on the internet that is infinitely larger than the real one. Ah, you know if you think about it like this like we just keep adding more and more stuff to It. You know. 01:05:41.44 Jala and Dave Yeah, there's There's not a specific like and there's a weird. Ah, there's the there's the saying that you know and everything's forever on the internet. Nothing is gone. That's I mean that's obviously not the case things do vanish and you can't recover them. There's there's problems with um, ah. 01:05:56.24 Marcus Right. 01:06:01.37 Jala and Dave Data like solvency. Um or even something like the wayback machine those things or the archive.org they don't they're not infallible and stuff's gone. Ah, or it's ah it's a it saves like a so a stamp in time but not the entirety of the thing. It's just like a template of it. 01:06:20.33 Jala and Dave Um, so that's that's also interesting because there's shared experiences that people people have and those things you think that they're oh like we can just go take a look back at the the log or the blog or whatever you what have you and but it's not there anymore. 01:06:38.90 Jala and Dave And so it's not that oh it never existed because there's a shared experience of it. But it's something that you can't like tangibly recover and um and as a note to the idea of ah. 01:06:56.13 Jala and Dave Like the loss of identity like an internet identity. So in particular, you can look at this in something like social media because it's so prevalent. But if your account is hacked and someone takes over it or or just the duplic. The the deluge of duplicate accounts. Maybe have like a number tacked on or something weird in there on Instagram or wherever and people like take that as gospel like if they're saying something and they're just putting words in your mouth but you have to deal with like the fallout of that even if it's something you had nothing to do with. 01:07:32.11 Marcus Right? Yeah because it has your name on it. Yeah or your screen name I should say. 01:07:36.80 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, and um, you know like identity theft and also like Cyber Cyber liability issues are becoming a bigger and bigger thing because my day job is in insurance. Um I do not do like. Health Insurance Car Insurance Home Insurance. So don't get mad at me about those things folks I deal with businesses and business insurance. But ah cyber Cyber stuff has become like a bigger and bigger part of my job and is basically being. 01:07:58.78 Marcus Um, I think that. 01:08:09.13 Jala and Dave Ah, something that's being offered all the time on basically everything and more or less like if you look at any of your credit cards or your banks or your anything like pretty much everybody wants to tell you about Cyber coverage. And like Cyber recovery and and all of this other mess and there's a big reason for that because it is a big problem and it is you know, ah something that can actually affect your. 01:08:35.42 Jala and Dave Physical Mental emotional health ah in in addition to like if they get your credit cards and everything else because literally everything's on the internet somewhere so you know, um, it's a big thing. It's a big big.. Definitely Ah, you know, problematic situation. Um, and I think that we're we're past the point where people thought that digital identities were necessarily like quote unquote weird you know like I think everybody kind of gets it by now. But there was definitely a point in time where. 01:09:08.52 Jala and Dave You know if you said that you met each other on the internet people gave you like the super stink eye. You know they're like oh what do you did? what you know that's going to probably be a Killer you know, whatever you know, just the idea of um friendships online. 01:09:13.85 Marcus Um, oh my God Yeah me there you met somebody on the right? Yeah yeah. 01:09:26.42 Jala and Dave And trying to square that circle with like older generations. Um, and and let's say I definitely remember trying to like get my parents to understand that yes, I'm aware. That there's catfishing or you know you can you can be any. Anyone can be whoever Buyed that screen I mean we get it? Um, but you build relationships you build networks you build these things over time. 01:10:02.21 Jala and Dave And they're still just as real as anything you're creating like outside of the internet but to get like oh I'm going to travel across the country and go meet someone. We're going to do a meet up or whatever and then it's like oh that seems really dangerous like well yeah. 01:10:22.16 Jala and Dave There is an element of that involved. But that's the same as if I just met someone at a bar and was like oh hey, let's go hang out on some other day. It's It's not very different and even before the internet was a thing you could still have pen pals and stuff I had pen pals before I had the internet. 01:10:40.44 Jala and Dave Was always talking to people and like yes would I have tried to meet these people in person. Yes I absolutely would have and that is just as dangerous writing people letters and you know like ah deciding you're going to go and and see them face to face so ah, same kind of thing there too. 01:10:57.45 Jala and Dave But yeah, like I mentioned it earlier but all of us met each other online you know and I married to Dave so I mean like that that was a thing we met each other on Twitter during 1 of those weird times where Dave actually talked rather than just retweeting shit and ah. 01:11:14.77 Jala and Dave He said a thing and I said I think I love you and then I was like maybe I should figure out if I actually love this guy and so I slid into his Dms and talked to him and then we just never stopped talking and that's how that happened so and then he did that risky thing and came you know to come visit me, you know in person so we could see each other and you know. See what we thought or whatever I I think I was driving and I showed up and she was still like oh you actually did show up I asked yes and I was going to show up but I had to drive. This was not close. 01:11:46.38 Marcus Um, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. 01:11:48.60 Jala and Dave You talk about because you you you flew here first? Well yeah, we won't have an argument you gonna have us have an argument on there. Yes, you drove but that was to Columbus that's different. We already met each other when I drove here from phoenix yeah when you drove here from Phoenix but we were already like you were moving in bro. 01:12:07.87 Jala and Dave Anyway, we're not having this conversation. The internet is forever forever. Ah, ah yeah, yeah, so ah, but yeah, like um, he just said that he like you know he was listening to a certain band when he was lifting and you know at that point. 01:12:11.48 Marcus Um, oh my God Maral Strife Next you say. 01:12:27.70 Jala and Dave I So when I was like I think I love you like he had always had like because he has a super stink face whenever he's trying to take take a flexy photo and he would always take like a flexxi photo and be like frowning and then he'd always put it in like black and white and so like I thought he was a super metal dude because he was bald and had like his beard and he was all and like flexing. 01:12:45.81 Jala and Dave And then it turns out, he's like this sweet goober of the man but like I never knew and I then it's so like you know we met each other in person and then like once he got comfortable. He went from because at first he had his rbf going but then and I kept on asking and I kept on asking like are you okay and then then you're like yeah, it's just my face and. 01:13:05.54 Jala and Dave Like okay and then like when he calmed down and was was ah relaxed and everything then he was very silly and I was just like this is not what what I was expecting out of you huh? So but yeah Marcus ah, we met because we were going to be. 01:13:23.51 Jala and Dave Doing like ah, a bodybuilding coplay bodybuilding competition before that went into a trash fire and ah so like you know you you just messaged. We're like hey you're doing this thing I'm doing this thing and that we just started hanging out and talking and then I was like yeah and then also this guy is doing this thing and that that was before Dave and I were married and. 01:13:27.29 Marcus Um, right right? Well for you. 01:13:40.28 Marcus Right? Yeah, and then like the other funny thing like speaking of you know, meeting your spouses online I Absolutely when I before I got married you know back in the day. Yeah I met my wife online. You know we we met and started talking because we had seen each other's pictures this. Ah. 01:13:41.95 Jala and Dave Yeah, so. 01:13:59.88 Marcus Back when suicide girls was actually like you know more of a thing. Um because that is how we met. Um, we were you know we had seen each other's pictures on on Sg and we're just like hey you're hot you know and we started talking and we you know we started messaging each other back and forth and then we met in real life and it was just like. Yeah, okay, yeah, and we started dating and that was just what it was so yeah, like the idea of meeting somebody online the idea of having a relationship online of whatever type is way less weird now but it was definitely weird before. So. 01:14:34.18 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, well, especially like internet dial up days where you couldn't do a video chat you couldn't even do like a voice chat over the internet you had to buy a calling card like mad I spent all my money on calling cards to call my friends. 01:14:47.56 Marcus Um, oh God Yes, no um. 01:14:52.10 Jala and Dave And then you know what I used to do I used to record like cassettes cassettes of me speaking into a talk boy when those were still a thing and sent mailing those snail mailing those with handwritten letters to my friends that I met on the internet. 01:15:09.40 Marcus You can't see my face but I was just slack jawed when you said that I would oh my God man. Oh yeah. 01:15:17.26 Jala and Dave But yeah, yeah, so like I've I've always been that outgoing. Um I was like that before you'd think a mix tape is great. This is a gellit tape I still have some of the tapes that some of my friends sent me from back in that era I don't know if they actually have anything on them still or if they have like demagnetized and died or something. But. I still have them so they're in my correspondence box along with a bunch of my old old letters that I got so I probably have like 15 years worth of correspondence in that box. So anyhow, ah that I know right. 01:15:48.79 Marcus Um, way faster now Thanks to the internet. 01:15:51.64 Jala and Dave But I mean like there there was something really nice about having handwritten letters and like little drawings especially like if you were doing anime stuff and then somebody was drawing their little characters doing their little things or whatever and like sending you illustrations I used to draw my own stationary and send that to people. 01:16:07.94 Jala and Dave You know like draw draw little pictures on it to make it like stationary and then mail it. So so yeah, um, that was a big tangent. We say we compare ourselves and to other people on the internet all the time. Ah, we do that as adults, let alone as children and everything and um. 01:16:14.95 Marcus Yeah. 01:16:26.89 Jala and Dave Yeah, the thing that we tend to forget along the way is that just like we are crafting our persona for the internet. Everyone else is also crafting their persona for the internet. So like. Whenever you see somebody else's life and you're like man. They're always happy like remember those happy people are not posting their sad days. They're they're not posting their Traumas they are. They are just ah, keeping that to themselves and posting all the nice stuff because that's what people want to hear about you know. 01:16:56.48 Marcus Ah, that's true. That's absolutely true and like you know the? Ah um, yeah, like there's so many Tiktok accounts where it's just like you know it's clearly and and and you know and tiktoks are short. So it's really easy to just carve out. You know. I'm smiling right now take the you know like I'm in a good mood at this very moment. You know do the Tick Tock now while I'm in a good mood and then like the other twenty three and a half hours of the day they're just like you know in an emotional hole. So yeah. 01:17:26.45 Jala and Dave Yeah, oh for sure, especially if they have a brand and they're putting on their face. Their performance you know, um, it's it is. It's a performance of identity and we all do it like when're on podcasts we're doing podcast things. Although I mean to be fair on my show I think we're a little bit more transparent and more like. 01:17:44.44 Jala and Dave Chill and and kind of presenting ourselves as we are more. Um you know like the yeah. Well oh you mean it's radio voice time. Yeah well. 01:17:47.30 Marcus I mean that's true I'm not using I'm I'm not using my radio voice. For instance, you know so yes, magic not to put on on time to foot on the the special voice where we talk like William Shatner yeah 01:18:05.62 Jala and Dave Ah, well, um, the thing is is that like ah although sometimes there there have been times. Ah not on my show I'm I'm pretty transparent on my own but like when I've been on the level or if I've been guesting on somebody's show and it's been like some real trash I will hide it there. But. When it comes to my show like the the joy that you hear in my voice is just my my happiness at being ah in the recording studio if you will with people who are cool that I enjoy the to talk you know talking to in the first place talking about an interesting subject. So it's legitimate like the the happiness you hear now is legitimate happiness. And this is a much better ah end to a very long gotten let of bad days. So ah, you know so so that's what I have to say for that for what it's worth this is real. But um, in either case. 01:18:55.95 Jala and Dave Ah, yeah, like people stockpile. That's something else that I wanted to bring up like when they are a fitness influencer or a makeup in Beauty influencer or whatever you know they are stockpiling photos of when they're in their best shape when they're in their top form when they're doing their best. They will stockpile that they will recycle those older photos like if you've been following somebody for a long time and you see their stuff in in your feed every day you will notice and you will remember hey I've seen this photo before it's because they're recycling stuff. Um, and people who are newer followers. Don't know that. So ah, they don't realize and so. I feel like that and and this kind of like lends itself to the next time that all 3 of us will be together in the very near future about fitness stuff. Fitness myth busting. So um, but like this leads people to think that it's easy to maintain. 01:19:49.14 Jala and Dave Being in like this super top shape all the time twenty four seven when really these people have their bulks. They have their their vacations and whatnot. They're not always 100 % in that situation also like what they're trying to sell a lot of times these fitness influencers they're like oh yeah, do my at home body building program. But like they're going to the gym. So like they're going to the gym. They're not doing this at home bodybuilding program that they're selling you. They are doing their own thing which is not what they're telling you to do so um, you know like there's there's a lot where people just oh yeah, you know that sounds great. 01:20:26.30 Jala and Dave This person seems like they know what they're doing So I'm going to have to definitely get from them but like they're not doing it. Y'all. 01:20:31.10 Marcus Yeah, and then also even the people who are like in the gym people people who like are in the gym like they shoot their videos in the gym or whatever they shoot all their other content other media in the gym. Let's not forget. They will go into the gym for one day and they will shoot weeks' worth of stuff. Like they'll have like like they stockpile things but like even even aside from that they'll go in there and they'll shoot like and this is the same for like people who are like you know who are like only fans models or anything like that. They'll take a single day and they'll film easily. They could film easily up to two months ' worth of content in a couple of days or like if they're teaming up if you know if they're teaming up with a couple people collaborating with a couple of folks. They'll get together and they'll shoot months worth of content in a matter of like a weekend and then they can just schedule that out for the next three months and don't have to shoot anything like they'll go on like a little like a little you know content creation binge for a couple of weeks and they don't have to do and they don't have to make anything for the rest of the year if they plan it right? So like they don't even have to worry about how they feel on a particular day. You know they can plan out the next like 3 seasons worth of stuff. Get it all done. And then not work anymore. You know they don't have to shoot anything else anymore and so they just have to like you know, keep up with you know marketing after that but they don't have to if they don't want to. They don't have to do anything like once they once they do that. So yeah, they can definitely have. 01:22:06.33 Marcus You know they're shooting time when they're putting their best face. Best face forward and then then they're good for months and months and yeah and like you know some you know things might happen or whatever you know they. I don't know a million a million different things could happen but they'll have they'll have that backlog ready to go so they don't have to worry about you know, real life getting in the way of the content that they're trying to put out and in many cases thus they don't have to worry about their cash flow. So yeah, we don't people don't seem to take that into account I think that a lot of people. Think that especially on Instagram they think that what they're posting is now you know they kind of take the whole insta part of Instagram very literally. Um and what's really funny is that some people will in their hashtags. They'll put later gram. And there just to be like yeah this was shot a long time ago. Um, this is just a scheduled post. This is you know, just coming in sequence. Um, and they'll they'll tag it that way people who want to be transparent but most of what's on the most of what's on Instagram especially like from from like. From fitness influencers from influencers of any type. Ah is you know they shot that like there's stuff that's being posted now that was shot in january. 01:23:30.23 Jala and Dave Well and then too you have the fact that like even if they're putting hashtag Later Graham who's looking at all the hashtags. Ah you know like that's that's quote unquote transparent but then 2 people when they see later Graham they think oh maybe later that day or a couple of days later they're not thinking like months you know. 01:23:35.28 Marcus Right. 01:23:47.80 Jala and Dave That kind of thing so that's also like that's a nebulous kind of indication as well. Dave I think you had something a while ago you did but you forgot okay, but yeah, so kind of circling back to young people again. So in Wikipedia there was um. 01:24:07.34 Jala and Dave A note ah pescot in 2020 found in the study that the use of Snapchat filters in Preteens has a great impact on how they present themselves online boys found filters to be more fun and used for entertainment whereas girls use filters. More as a beauty enhancer this becomes dangerous for preteens who are not aware of when a filter is being used when consuming content from friends influencers or celebrities the same study found that the use of filters can have a large impact on Preteens identity formation as they begin to compare themselves with others. So again. 01:24:42.62 Jala and Dave This kind of under underlines again. Ah, the fact that you have made a solid decision in keeping your daughter off of the social media. 01:24:50.89 Marcus Ah, yeah, yeah, no absolutely. Especially as filters have become more and more sophisticated like I just saw I was just saw a thing about a Tiktok filter that uses Ai to. 01:25:05.91 Marcus And it's not an ai filter. It's not like 1 of those things turn yourself into an anime character. Whatever no this is one where it's just like like your standard kind of makeup. You know, add some freckles and like some and some full lips or whatever like that kind of filter. It's. Because of the way it's programmed and it's uses a form of like kind of generative Ai or whatever. Um, it's so smooth that you actually you actually can't tell when you're watching the video unless you know the person you can't tell that it's not safe. Real makeup. You know it looks you know it looks like makeup but it it looks like it looks real and then when the filter comes off, you can see oh my god this person's face is not. That's not their face. You know so and it's it's really really powerful and it doesn't do that little glitch thing where you turn your head. 01:25:58.55 Marcus Far enough to the side and suddenly it looks like this little like selfhane template that's floating in midair you know. So yeah. 01:26:06.33 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, but so I did want to cover a few positive things because ah, you know we've we've kind of talked a little bit about some positives but I do want to kind of underline a few more according to a recent study by Harvard. Social media can also be positive for mental health because being online means that you can express yourself freely in a manner that you cannot as easily express yourself in meet space. You can also opt for anonymity. And Dave you'd said something more or less like that when you were talking about when you were in chat rooms and you could just like be free to talk to people and not really be fettered by ah you know like your online space or real life meetspace sorry. Yeah, so with the exception of a brief foray into myspace in Facebook which I used very very limited I don't think I was actually posting there I but just like look at what family or friends were doing and then I was like actually this is dumb I don't like this and I also don't like that anyone can see whatever I'm like I don't need. 01:27:13.20 Jala and Dave And Gladys to know what I'm up to like I just if I want to talk to somebody I'll call them on the phone. Um, so up probably up until like the 2010 s I don't think I used my own name in anything like my. My legal name just did not appear on the internet. Um until I was kind of forced to use Linkedin for I think a college course. Um, and also my ah. The whole Hotmail got like dissolved and that's like well I guess I'll have a ah professional Google um account and I used my gmail has my name attached to it but I pretty much use that specifically for like business things. Um. 01:28:06.54 Jala and Dave But aside from that I wasn't like in social media or anything where else using my own name. So it's kind of a happy accident that I just got like labeled as my avatar. Um. 01:28:21.40 Jala and Dave But yeah I because I was cognizant very specifically of anything like that like coming back I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong, but I just don't want that association or ah, maybe someone's following me on a social media that I'm not like aware of and. They comment on something and then that just comes back for some reason you just don't I don't need that drama like ever. Um, but there's just a sense of security knowing that okay I divorced myself from specific things. Yeah yeah I know for other people. 01:28:57.79 Jala and Dave Because like I know that's that's partially like your mental health. Ah and and you know like anxieties related things like that and just general security purposes like everybody is aware that having a social media account is like a security risk in and of itself. Um. Having yourself out on the internet anywhere in any form is a social like is a security risk of some sort ah and the more that you interact the more of ah of a risk you are taking and you know that's because you know you become an attractive nuisance if you will like for hackers or anything else. 01:29:34.15 Jala and Dave Ah, so so that is a truth and and of course the the more you're on the internet The more likelihood you are going to stumble across something that is a scam or a virus or the whatever. So um, you know there is all of that for Sure. Um. I Also know that there are a lot of people who most of their time is spent on the internet interacting with people because ah like their situation at home or whatever and definitely during pandemic. Everybody was online because that's the only way we could interact with each other because we weren't able to see each other face to face because of quarantine so you know, um, the internet kind of gained even more prominence during that time. Period. Than I think it ever had previous because a lot of people had to turn to that for like you know, especially if they lived Alone. You know so. 01:30:33.90 Marcus Um, and a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be on the internet very much at all. Suddenly didn't have a choice. You know if they wanted to communicate with anyone. So yeah. 01:30:37.55 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, right, right? right? but being online also offers you ability to meet all different kinds of cool people like all the people that I have on the show. Ah everyone including current company. Of course. 01:30:57.14 Jala and Dave But you know you get to interact with folks from all different kinds of walks of life and kind of learn and grow and that is super cool and you know you can also keep up with a larger volume of friends and family on the internet than you could otherwise like. 01:31:05.39 Marcus Yeah. 01:31:13.61 Jala and Dave You know you might be curious hey whatever happened to that dude that x or you know hey what's going on with my cousin but you don't really have time or energy like you know you don't have enough spoons to ah Divvy up those spoons that you've got your spoons of energy refer back to the disability and ableism episode for more on that. Um, in order to like allocate some spoons to calling your cousin to see how they're doing and maybe maybe your cousin doesn't have the spoons to talk to you at that time because of whatever's going on in their life but you want to know how they're doing you can pop in and give them like a you know, shoot him a quick message you can shoot them a text you can shoot them. You know like a Dm you can see them on on some social platform and you know send them a message. Whatever it is that you need to do just to touch base. You can send them a dumb meme. That's how lot of how everybody I know ah makes everybody else. Know that they're thinking of them I'm going to send you a dumb meme or a cute animal or a funny ticktock or an interesting thing that I I thought was cool and I'm going to just send it to you? No comment. You know my dad my my dad. 01:32:13.57 Marcus Yeah, know right? exactly. 01:32:20.34 Jala and Dave Okay, so my dad's time on the internet is almost all on Youtube he is just on Youtube and he watches whatever Youtube puts in front of him so he sends me all kinds of stuff all day long every day he never even asked me about it. He just sends it to me and then that's that's almost never brought up again. So ah, you know, but whatever. But yeah, um, this was definitely like ah a positive thing in in a lot of ways being able to connect with people and being able to keep track of folks like right now I have an elder. I believe he was the cousin of my awalita who's over in Spain this this cousin of Myawalita is in Spain and he messages me every day twice a day to say good morning and telling me to have a good day and then in the evening telling me to have sweet dreams. And he he messages me every day in spanish and he sends it to me every single day and like I've never met this man in person but he is a relative of mine somewhere on the family tree over in Spain and he sends me a message every day. Um, you know and that's something that would never have been if it weren't for the internet. 01:33:27.25 Marcus You know one. 01:33:35.50 Marcus No, that is pretty adorable. Actually so yeah. 01:33:35.52 Jala and Dave You know? Yeah yeah, so ah, do you all have thoughts about some of the positive influences of the internet. 01:33:46.20 Marcus I Mean yeah I mean mainly everything you said, but also yeah, like if not for if not for the internet and certain aspects of social media in particular like I wouldn't have found a lot of like the Queer community that I found and just like there is you know and. 01:34:05.82 Marcus Okay, so here's a funny thing I didn't realize this but apparently ah I am some of the change that people want to see in the world. Um, because aside from me in a lot of places especially when I was modeling aside from me, there was no. Black assigned male at birth non-binary non-binary representation ah on the internet at all. It was me and like 1 other person. So. So so apparently yeah I was the change I wanted to see in the world because. 01:34:40.32 Marcus I didn't have any of that representation for myself. So I had to just kind of wing it and figure out what my own gender expression was going to be and putting that out there on on on social media allowed other people to be like oh okay, so nonbinary people aren't just you know thin. White androynous you know, ah assigned female at birth people. You know that's the only representation that had been out there up until like 17 you know? So so like that was cool but then also aside from that like I you know found a lot of art community too. 01:35:19.18 Marcus Um, and a lot of like now that I'm trying to get back into animation. It's really easy to find other animators like really really easy and that is a great benefit because I'm just thinking back to you know it's early two thousand s if I was trying to get back in animation then. I wouldn't have known where to look at all like I like I remember looking for freelance jobs ten years ago in animation. It was so hard it was like you know you'd have to try and find a forum that was. On a particular site that was related to like a graphics magazine or something like that that had really shitty ui you know and barely and you know and you could barely talk to anyone and now we have like you know we have entire websites and likes pieces of social media like there's. Multiple subreddits and you know, um and all of Linkedin. Basically you can find if you want to if you can you can find anything on Linkedin Job wise so like that's been super helpful. Um, but yeah, like if not for the internet. I would be really I'd be floundering that much more. Let me put it like that. So. 01:36:32.81 Jala and Dave Yeah, and I'll say like the entirety sends maybe 2 people of my like associates and friends or anyone I know is from the internet. They're all digital people. 01:36:49.73 Jala and Dave They're all real. They're real. They're real flesh and blood people that I met primarily through podcasting. Um, and that's just years years of accidentally networking and just kind of being in the same fan space because I don't like that I don't like the word fandom. 01:37:09.19 Jala and Dave But um, yeah, that's that's the biggest positive is that the people I've met along the way have all by and large been pretty fantastic. 01:37:21.33 Marcus The real internet was the friends who met along the way. Yeah. 01:37:27.37 Jala and Dave Yeah, indeed definitely and um, when you're talking about like representation and stuff like that. It's ah cool that you mentioned that because ah it was an interesting experience to me when I I first started podcasting with duckfeed and on duckfeed. I was the first female I was the first um, non non um caucasian from the Midwest and ah so ah, when I first appeared and you know like I I don't I variably. 01:38:03.43 Jala and Dave Think of myself as being more like non-binary I lean towards female but you know I'm not one hundred percent Cis ah feeling I never have been um, but like back when I was first starting podcasting back in 2014? Um, I definitely was. And it was funny. The first episode I was on ah my co-host Ben was just like so Jalla. How does it feel to represent all women and I'm like oh my god yeah like I made some kind of like just kind of disdainful like kind of sounding. 01:38:38.20 Jala and Dave Response like ah yeah, no I I definitely can't do that and that that was because like my identity my ah personal identity had still been. You know I definitely wasn't ah identifying 100% there you know, but um and you know like that that's of course changed over time like the way that I present myself. 01:38:38.98 Marcus Right. 01:38:49.81 Marcus Right? yeah. 01:38:57.82 Jala and Dave Ah, but 2 it was interesting because I had somebody who listened to the show who messaged me at one point and was like you are my representation I've never heard a cuban person on anything before and it's it's cool to have somebody on that's you know like a cuban person and. Whatever. And um, so that was nice, especially because it's ah ah, usually a white male dominatminated space and you know of course with my show I tried to have like a variety of people of different um backgrounds and cultures and you know modes of expression and everything. On the show I know like Marcus you tend to be like with the same people every time because I'm like oh but they're they're so great. We have to get on the topic because it's just because like there's certain people who um, both you know all have a tendency to likes the same topics and want to talk about the same topics and so like you know that's. 01:39:51.86 Marcus Which I take no issue with. 01:39:54.89 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, but I definitely want to like so over time start mixing it up more even though I know I like to put you on with zombie and everybody but you know and Dave of course. Um, but anyway, yeah, and so yeah, it's been interesting. Um, having that experience of of being somebody's representation. 01:40:13.51 Jala and Dave You know, ah and then while I was very active in the duckfeed community for a number of years I definitely had a lot of people of color and you know, um, femme folks who would message me because like at that time. You know like they that that was that was the person I was the person they identified with you know on the you know in the community that was a voice of the community. So you know, um, but anyway so yeah, like ah, there's There's a lot of really good stuff. 01:40:44.50 Jala and Dave To say about the internet and of course like I've I've met so many wonderful people as a result of the internet existing. So um, you know I think I already had that reach out and touch someone attitude long before at and t came up with their ad campaign or the internet existed. I was already like that anyway, as I said I already had pen pals and shit that I would do that stuff with um so I've always kind of been that way. The internet just makes it that much easier. But um, yeah, the same study from Harvard though. Also said that it can be. 01:41:18.47 Jala and Dave Ah, unhealthy and negative for mental health to be on the internet especially for younger people in whom it may increase anxiety and depression levels. So ah, the big problem is when folks begin to feel an emotional connection to being online. So ah. Obsessively checking for your devices for updates dear to due to fear of missing out or feeling extremely upset if you're not connected like the power goes out and then you're like you know or that the cell cell phone towers or something. There's like a storm and something happens and then like your internet gets knocked off and then you're just like. Oh god but I can't connect to anybody and talk to my my friends or anything you know and and when you start getting really upset about that like you can't be alone for an hour or 2 you know that that becomes like really bad ah because you've got a form of addiction going on there right. So because you've got like withdrawal symptoms. You've got like this anxiety and like you can have developed like physical symptoms. You know from from something like this happening. Ah but also social media can be a means by which somebody can be bullied sexually harassed doxed and so on and 2 the always online status due to participating in the internet of things having your echo dot smart watches ah phones and so on has affected how our brains work and shortens our attention spans. There are a lot of people who can't. 01:42:48.33 Jala and Dave Function with focus because they're so accustomed to being disrupted all the time with all of their devices that our brains are now not functioning the same way anymore they they have to just jump from thing to thing to thing because of you know, just the way that our brains are being trained to be. 01:42:53.95 Marcus I mean. 01:43:07.76 Jala and Dave You know, like our our brain is going to rewire itself according to the needs of the situation. So if your situation is always scattered and you know always being disrupted then your brain is going to function that way. 01:43:19.40 Marcus Um, yeah, it's like we're being trained. It's like because of the advance of technology and the constant like Stimulus I guess is the best way to put it. It's like. 01:43:36.67 Marcus It's like we're being trained to be multitaskers without like but not specific Tasks. You know, just kind of you know the idea that we can switch attention at the drop of a hat because we have no choice because everything is buzzing at us or pinging at us or like you know. Bringing up like some kind of notification that yeah, it's like we're yeah, that's it's I kind of equate it to like living in the wild you know where like where you know when you're out in a forest and you are. You know, not a predator Animal. You have to pay attention to every little sound and thing that comes out because something could be coming to kill you and there's a bit of like there's a level of anxiety that comes with that and now while it's not something coming to kill us. We have that same. We're being trained in that same kind of instinct with all the different notifications and pings and things that we get from all of our devices being on all the time you know and we're not insulated from it. 01:44:43.68 Jala and Dave Yeah, and ah and something another aspect of that is the fact that we're always reachable and that I can see clearly just at my day job. 01:45:00.82 Jala and Dave Where people are expected to be contactable like twenty four seven they're not on the clock but there's there's group messaging boards. There's all these things that people have to like you have to be able to have your phone on you at all times or. Some way that the the workplace can get a hold of you where you're never separate from it like you're always on. You're always on the clock. Even though that's not part of the gig. It's it's an hourly job. 01:45:37.51 Jala and Dave It's like where where does one space end like it kind of doesn't um and just that's facilitated by this this in our connectivity and that that's a clear negative to it as well. 01:45:50.58 Marcus Yeah, definitely. 01:45:52.42 Jala and Dave Right? And that's something that we talked about on the grind culture episode a little bit because ah this is starting to disrupt people's work life balance because of fna like I have ah an office job right? So my office is like put your work email on your phone and I'm like fuck no fuck. 01:46:12.90 Jala and Dave No, that's not a thing that's happening I have teams on my phone because I have to because all of my phone calls when I'm working remotely come through my phone. However I put it on. Do not disturb when I'm not working and I don't answer calls when I'm not on clock. So um. And you know I I put it on. Do not disturb I forward it to my voicemail so that it doesn't even ring when I'm not working. Um I still get text messages and stuff via teams. But I just ignore those if I'm not working because I like I'm I'm doing the bare minimum of connectivity there because I do not. Do not want it on my phone I don't need that twenty four seven I don't want to see my work email popping up aggregating with all of my own stuff when I'm on my own time I will deal with that when I'm on clock in the office. You know. 01:46:59.17 Jala and Dave So ah, there are people of course who are like managers or higher ups who basically have to because the way that corporate culture has changed over time has become such that it expects this constant connectivity from people and that's basically ah due in large part to Silicon Valley and how. Different companies such as Netscape and everything came about and how they were all done by like these college kids who just you know started a company and then like they they don't have any concept of work life balance. They're just hanging out in their dorm room making their their thing and then they end up coming and becoming like a big company. Um. 01:47:36.60 Marcus Right? They expect going will do the same thing. 01:47:38.17 Jala and Dave You know and all of that's right? So like if you if you ah read that book about how the internet happened and you're you're reading through that or listening to the Audiobook version of that. Ah, you can really see where it's like no this is this is really where the the current culture the work-life balance culture has thrown itself out of whack like um, you know we had the industrial revolution and then everybody started to rail against it and then all this the unions sprung up and all the strikes happened. To fight for fair working hours and stuff and everything was cool again until you know, like over time, especially once the internet age happened that catapulted everything into the stratosphere again and now we've got strikes happening again because all this crap is coming up all over again. 01:48:26.60 Jala and Dave You know, ah it it never really ends. So um, yeah, it's interesting and it definitely ties in to prior episodes and forthcoming episodes and and so forth. Um, it leads to Burnout which will be another episode that we'll talk about if you're always on That's why there's so many different things where it's like. Retreats of detoxing from your phones and stuff where they take your phone away and you don't get it back until the end of the retreat and stuff like that because like people need to separate from the phone for a little while they need to be disconnected from stuff for a little bit. You know, definitely and with regard to fomo. 01:48:49.83 Marcus Right. 01:49:03.13 Jala and Dave The fact that we're always connected can also lead to higher tendencies of this compulsory checking constantly for updates notifications did somebody like my post did anybody reply to me did x person text me today. You know, ah because there's that. Desire for that little dopamine dopamine squirt when you get the good stuff coming to you. You get your likes on your post people retweeted you. You know you got the pat on the head good boy you did the thing you know, whatever. So yeah, it's it's wild but the study the effect of social media on. 01:49:42.14 Jala and Dave Identity construction suggests that not only should we consider ourselves as having one or more digital identities online but also that we have a separate digital health as Well. This study is referring to it in terms of what our digital experience does to affect our physical health but ah like I mentioned earlier. I Would also say that I feel like this works just as well in discussing how our online Personas are faring with regard to interacting with others in the digital world at large as an entity separate from our physical identity that is in the world because like. And this is something too I didn't put this in the notes but this is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately when you have a situation like someone has passed away but their digital identity even though it's frozen in time now and it's not being updated anymore. It still exists. Um in the death Positivity episode. We were talking about how? um. There was a a tech bro who was from some other country and he was really into like ah making stuff essentially like chat chat gpt and he ended up passing away at an early age and then one of his friends. 01:50:51.47 Jala and Dave Who you know like was trying to cope and deal with stuff ended up taking an Ai chat gpt kind of thing and running all of this guy's social media posts through it to create an app that replies to you like it was that guy's social media account. 01:51:07.78 Marcus Um, that was a black mirror episode. Yikes. 01:51:11.26 Jala and Dave Well, that's also that was based on a real thing that actually happened so um and and then too part of the thing that was commented about it is that like you know, over time this ai changed and and adapted as you know, ah more people talked to it so it no longer becomes. You know like it no longer represents the person that it did before and not only that but like this is still just the social media posts the social media tendencies of this person. That's not the full picture of this person. It's a totally separate identity from that person. 01:51:46.30 Jala and Dave And you know like right now, especially with the ai stuff going on. Everybody's art is being stolen. Everybody's photos are being stolen. Everybody's identities are being stolen and mishmashed and put into this big grinder. So um, you know like this is this is a real serious thing like the the Ai bots are. Becoming like legion. You know? So ah, it's it's real wild and I will forever reference it. There was a short story that was on Lavar Burton Reids that was about ah a situation where like there was an Ai that was created off of ah this lady's. 01:52:05.90 Marcus Right? yeah. 01:52:23.57 Jala and Dave Mom who was like a genius scientist and then they ah uploaded her her mind to this computer and then over time. Ah they keep on having the daughter come in and have talks with this computer like once a year to see if it still registers as being like her mom. And so like the whole story is ah actually written by a lady in Africa ah, and it's called a regression test and it's a very cool story where you know like the the lady's talking about how this ai representation this uploaded partial. 01:53:02.70 Jala and Dave Person that you know was her mother at some point is not 100% her mother and over time it does change and it isn't her. It becomes less and less her over time and you know like it's this really interesting reflection on like our ah selfhood and. 01:53:20.20 Jala and Dave The internet and I strongly recommend it I have linked it at least 2 or 3 episodes of the show so far I will link it in this episode as well. Strongly recommend it plus Lavar Burton is amazing and you should always listen to him anyway. Ah so. 01:53:36.25 Marcus Um, but no one have to take my word for it. Such. 01:53:38.55 Jala and Dave Right? right? so so yeah like there's there's a lot you can really dig into when you look at identity and especially if you look at stuff like ai and what is going on in the world today with ah scamming and Ai stuff and big data. And how much of your information is you know, actually taken and and observed and sold bought and sold on the internet like we are the products for the social media people who are making all of the money off of us and ah. 01:54:10.94 Marcus No, that's absolutely true. 01:54:15.10 Jala and Dave Yeah, like ah we I have not talked to him yet, but there is someone I would like to have come on to talk about cybersecurity stuff in general and then he could tell us how terrible we all are for having social media accounts. Ah, but I do right right? It's too late. Ah we are all part of the machine now. 01:54:29.28 Marcus Um, it's too late for us. 01:54:34.59 Jala and Dave Um, but definitely I will be having an episode ah hopefully in the next several months about cybersecurity so you can ah look for that in the future but I did want to say ah that that same study. Ah the effect of social media on identity construction. Also points out that tagging people in places and so on adds context to the stuff that you're posting but it also starts involving other people and people can be upset if they're tagged or if they're not tagged in certain situations. 01:55:07.19 Jala and Dave And there are kind of rules of etiquette and interaction that have developed in which they change over time. There's even a roberts rules of order to cover things like online meetings I found that out when I was looking around. It's Roberts rules of order newly revised regarding. Electronic meetings is actually ah, an updated version of the book. So um, pretty wild stuff but ah did anybody have any comments about any of that before we kind of segue into the last little tidbit about. 01:55:43.55 Jala and Dave The masculine nature of the internet. 01:55:48.10 Marcus I'm just gonna say I will never have an Amazon Alexa or echo dot or anything like that and something I as soon as I saw it I was like absolutely not I was like that. 01:55:58.26 Jala and Dave I do not want Google turning on my lights I do not I do not want anything programmed in my house. No no. 01:56:03.16 Marcus Right now you know exactly? Yeah no and unless like unless I become really badly disabled like I cannot I know no like I can understand the use of it and if I need that kind of thing sure but I will. 01:56:21.73 Marcus Fight it tooth and nail because I can I I I don't want an automated house like no like freakgging Jarvis and Ironman was too much for me and he was cool. You know man. 01:56:33.72 Jala and Dave Right? right? Well and then to um, there is also I think I mentioned it when I was talking about portal. Um I believe it was in the portal episode. Ah it. 01:56:49.63 Jala and Dave There was a ah story by Ray Bradbury it was called there will come soft rains and it's basically about an automated house. That's still going after everybody died from like you know like this apocalypse that occurred because of nuclear war or something but the house is still going and nobody's alive. 01:57:08.86 Jala and Dave And it's a really cool and I linked it there I'll see if I can remember to link it in the show notes for this too. But I've got a long list of links I need to put in there but that is a very good story to read as well. On that note about the internet of things for sure. Dave did you have any other thoughts. 01:57:17.94 Marcus Um, oh my gosh So many. 01:57:28.40 Jala and Dave No I didn't know anything else to add to that and Dave's like yeah I'm real done now but actually I'm going to be turning it over to you ah to talk about the masculinity of how the internet itself was constructed so it's your time to shine I'm shining on. 01:57:46.87 Jala and Dave Like a crazy diamond. 01:57:51.93 Jala and Dave Ah, yeah, so a large part of the internet itself. Um, when it not only when it's sprung up but as it's as it's evolved the algorithms and everything going into it have generally by and large. 100 % but by and large been coded by men white men white men so that that's even worse. Um, because it's so very specific. Um, and that's to the detriment of anyone else being involved with it because it's catered to a specific viewpoint. 01:58:31.90 Jala and Dave Um, and there's it's not even just the internet. It's it's other things that are electronic um are programmed to recognize just like white dudes and. 01:58:45.81 Marcus Right? yeah. 01:58:48.84 Jala and Dave Just like they um this can happen just like say in like the bathroom. The little automated sensors for the sinks or the blow dryer some doesn't that doesn't catch all skin colors. 01:58:58.77 Marcus Um, yeah, the um was it the Xbox of the whatever that thing was the connect. Yeah, didn't recognize dark skin for the longest time. Yeah. 01:59:05.72 Jala and Dave Um, connect yeah. 01:59:11.69 Jala and Dave Yeah, because a lot of these things are programmed and they're programmed with biases and they're not all inclusive. They're exclusive and that changes how everyone's um, interacting with it and the internet is definitely.. It's it's it's the rule. Not the exception. Um, and this goes into things such as like ah dating services and that's a huge huge market. Um, but people don't understand that when it says oh we're going to parse um your likes and dislikes and your preferences through these. Algorithms that. That's said with the the largest air quotes you could possibly do they're they're programmed basically with a set of preferences based on like the site founders preferences and those things. 02:00:08.48 Jala and Dave It's It's a um, it's like invisible things behind it's It's the magic. Um, and it's not even an algorithm. Sometimes it's that comes down to oh, it's no better than people pulling names out of a hat because that's kind of what happened, but but you don't ever. You only see the front end of it. So. 02:00:20.63 Marcus Right? yeah. 02:00:27.90 Jala and Dave All of these things are they're set models and they're set standards and they're They're not immutable like stuff is slowly changing. But that's so small in comparison to how fast everything is changing as far as the technology is concerned right? I I do have a few things to add. So First off a book about the biases that are endemic to the tech. 02:00:48.66 Marcus Right. 02:01:00.93 Jala and Dave That we handle on the daily basis. Not just the internet but all of tech ah is artificial unintelligence by Meredith Brusard that is a good book to read for sure but also something to note is that the biases of the people building all of these algorithms and everything are also. In those search engines in everything else like in in your social media algorithms and things all of these things are based on these biases of these white men who are building who built the internet who are building some of these things and so you know like the search results you get are going to be. Different because of that. Um and all of that and so like there's a lot of different ways in which you know there's that kind of thing and even even um, nonsense stuff like some of like it's getting better now. But even stuff like photo filters which we talked about as being problematic even some of the fun photo filters don't work with darker skin. 02:01:40.66 Marcus Right? yeah. 02:02:00.40 Jala and Dave And things like that and you know like it's just you can go on and on about this list of ways in which you know it doesn't work right? like this stuff doesn't you know pan out properly for everyone. You know it's It's by and large written By. White men 4 primarily white men at least at the dawning of the internet and even to this day. There's like the number of computer science computer scientists or or programmers or whatever that are anything other than white men. It's slowly getting a little bit. You know like a little bit more diversity to it. But it's. By and large still the same.. It's yes, yes, and another thing I think that it's something that over time we've all had experience with in one way or the other but there's there's at this point I Guess it's an old adage. 02:02:37.30 Marcus I mean it's still pretty well under 10 percent right now. 02:02:54.99 Jala and Dave But there are no women on the internet is a thing because unless you somehow and it shouldn't the onus of proof should not be on anyone but is like unless you can prove that you're not a dude you're a dude. 02:03:11.64 Marcus Um, oh yeah, that's true that is very true. 02:03:14.28 Jala and Dave And so the yeah, the the neutral voice of text has been assumed to be a man and that's ah, that's a large that's a large problem that's something that affects. Um, people's just mental. Well-being. 02:03:20.20 Marcus Right? yeah. 02:03:32.28 Jala and Dave And it's putting onus on um, anyone that's not a dude or even on dudes. Ah, in general when you're interacting with other folks to have to do even more of a performance like like to be accepted for who you are is even Harder. So It's easier to go through a Persona I think than to try to just be yourself online right. 02:03:57.56 Marcus That is very true and then also like you know with things like meta of course you can just construct it. However, you want not that anybody's really using the virtual thing in meta because why would you buy that cumbersome headpiece. But. Um, but you know that's the but like that's the idea right? or like with me's ah on on Nintendo right? You know you make this little person that's supposed to represent you and you can make that into anything and most of them are dudes. 02:04:28.91 Marcus Like most of them are white dudes and then suddenly you come in and you're not that and it's just like actually prime example friggin call of duty like there are so many woman Tritz twitch streamers on call of duty who are amazing and all of these guys in there. Just insult them until you know. 02:04:47.86 Marcus They get their asses blown up but you know they just assume you know this isn't a woman's game. This isn't a woman's space but bla blah Blah blah and then these women come in there and clean their clocks. So yeah. 02:04:58.98 Jala and Dave Right? And we've we've talked a little bit on the toxic masculinity episode about um you know like the cycle of toxic masculinity and how part of that is due to the fact that while I say part of it. Most of it is due to the fact that you know it is a self-perpetuating cycle. Ah, men are taught by everybody God and everybody to be a certain way and ah, you know like women are enforcing it men are enforcing it. Everyone is enforcing it to to these guys that they need to to be these certain types of expectations and then when they are trying to approach the problem of toxic masculinity. They are doing it from this situation of like oh well,, there's something wrong with you and you guys need to stop being like this towards women or towards you know Lgbt people or whatever and they're not addressing, not not men not women, not anybody nobody is addressing. The men's mental health which is the big problem right? like you have to address the men's mental health but ah toxic masculinity is specifically about not getting mental health. You don't believe in mental Health Problems. You know you can you can deal with it because you're a man and and so on and so forth. 02:05:57.10 Marcus Yes, right now. 02:06:11.60 Jala and Dave And ah, all of that toxic masculinity because the internet is built by white men bleeds into the internet and that has worsened a lot of stuff. Um that one book the internet of us that I mentioned earlier that is is kind of like philosophy but also a lot of other things. It kind of touches on a lot of different. Scopes um, it talks about how the failure to vet our sources of information and things compiled with this problem of the lack of diversity in the tech space in the first place ah ends up polarizing. Everybody's opinions and and digging everyone in more and more and in making like this ah greater divide between these camps of people. Um and the part of the problem is that people are approaching. 02:07:05.24 Jala and Dave The same subject matter with different valuations of what truth should be because some people are looking at truth like I'm going to tell a little lie for the capital t truth to get my capital t truth across you know. Ah, and it's really it's it's laid out better in the book than I'm able to explain at this juncture but like ah definitely worth reading and examining that book for sure. Um, some people are like no, you need to tell the truth and all of the little things even if that kind of muddies the water from the capital t truth you are trying to tell. You know and it's a different valuation and there isn't like ah an agreed upon set way of interpreting things in the first place. Let alone fact checking let alone anything else and then if you have fact checking, but it's like from the other camp. You don't believe it because it's the other camp and they must be. You know? so. 02:07:58.72 Marcus Right? ah. 02:08:00.40 Jala and Dave It It becomes like this bigger polarizing thing. So That's how you get all of these different elements mixed together in this this other world that we have created for ourselves that also bleeds into the day-to-day Meatspace world um ends up. Causing stuff like gamergate and things like that where people are getting death threats where people are having these these wild situations. Thanks to internet shit you know like it's It's really wild but no. 02:08:31.38 Marcus Yeah, yeah, people want to say oh, it's just the internet but it never really is because in the end there's a human behind that. So yeah, more multiple humans. Yeah. 02:08:37.79 Jala and Dave It Never really is yep Yep Yep! So and I know that there are like a lot of nonprofits that are out there that are trying to introduce more people of color and people who are not men. Ah, you know or do not identify as men. Let us put it that way. Um, as ah, you know, like as people to get into the tech industry because we need it badly. We need the voices we need the perspectives we need the coding to not be. Ah, this one way because even if you have white men who are trying to do their best. They have intrinsic biases that they're not aware of because they've lived with them their entire life and never had a reason to question them because they don't ever encounter anybody of other. Persuasions or identities to really stop and think. 02:09:41.22 Jala and Dave Sorry to like get all involved and then just leave it where you're like yep, that's that's the thing. Yeah, well, that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying where we're not a tech space. But. 02:09:42.34 Marcus Yep. 02:09:49.74 Marcus That's that's what it is yeah man. 02:09:57.51 Jala and Dave We are on the internet and we're trying to to put some diversity out there. So yes, um, right right? So do we have any other thoughts about like ah internet bipartisanship and masculinity. 02:10:01.58 Marcus Yeah, we can. We do what we can with what we have right. 02:10:16.51 Jala and Dave Whatever, Um, you know these are ongoing topics I think we ah. 02:10:19.50 Marcus 1 thing I will say is that something that is becoming more acknowledged as time goes on but has gone unacknowledged since gone largely unacknowledged since the beginning and provens are being made. Is that queer people of color decide. What gets popular and on the internet is no different even though they're not the ones doing the programming and I think that's fascinating. Um I don't. 02:10:56.32 Marcus Just a fun note is ah there was a period of about six months when black people boycotted Tiktok or they boycotted dancing on Tiktok. So all the new dance trends. Were made by people who were not black and they were all bad and it was just like oh no, it was just like because because basically a whole you know a whole lot of a lot of. 02:11:19.97 Jala and Dave Ah I'm sorry that wasn't my fault. But. 02:11:31.80 Marcus Like there were because Jimmy Kimmel a couple ah Jimmy Kimmel specifically um hosted had a thing where he was talking about tiktok dance trends and he got this popular tiktokker to come on and do them all and she's this white girl and every single thing she did. Had been originally choreographed by a black person and went completely unacknowledged and that was like the linchpin. It's like fine. We're not doing it anymore and they just stopped and then a whole bunch of like attempts at dance trends happened and they were all terrible and they were acknowledged as terrible. By everyone regardless of ethnicity or gender and they're just like can can the black people come back now. it was just really it was remarkable and so um, that's just 1 example but like um. But yeah, like it's it's fascinating to me that that is still the case despite the fact that the number of queer bipoc programmers is so small I just think that I think that it's fascinating how no matter like I think. It shows that um the internet as a medium is just as subject to anything else that shapes popular opinion as any other medium and in all and in every case. Um. 02:13:06.71 Marcus Queer people of color have been the pioneers like the whole way around whether they whether they get to have any say in how the sausage is made you know or not they still are just like well we're we're seasoning this sausage our way you know, um. 02:13:25.49 Marcus To extend the metaphor. But I just I Just that's something that I think is fascinating and I think that that will only get better the more queer people the more queer Bipac folks get into stem and programming and. Actually shaping the language of the coding of the internet. That's only going to continue to happen and people are rail against it too. But. 02:13:50.93 Jala and Dave Well I I hope that they do in fact, hop into all of that and get in there because here's the shit white people have been stealing everything from black culture for as long as white people have encountered black people. 02:14:10.69 Marcus Um, that is fucking true. 02:14:10.75 Jala and Dave And and and black people never get the credit or the money or the fuck all for any of it ever and it's just like come on find some some point something's got to give here like. 02:14:21.44 Marcus Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, so ah I don't know I want more Tiktok moments like that you know life it was just like fine. You get nothing see how you do you know. 02:14:39.20 Marcus And like it's it's funny because like um, everything that's become popular has been because of black people like it's it's really really interesting. Anim may become and anime became popular in the United States because black people started watching like in like it's. Fascinating to see. Okay, it didn't become popular become black people because black people started watching but the popularity like jumped astronomically once black people got into it martial arts movies in the United States became popular because they aired in black. Theaters in latin theaters in black neighborhoods and suddenly black people realized oh wait. We can you know because you know martial arts movies showed people who were downtrodden and oppressed fighting back against their oppressors with just their bare hands and that inspired I mean the black panthers let's look at that you know. That inspired that inspired a whole liberation movement and martial arts movies became popular because black people were just kind of like well shit I got to go learn some martial arts. You know, um and that's and like it's it's fascinating for me to see and then of course there's all of popular music. You know. So. So yeah, we're just ah, well I'm just I'm waiting for it to I'm waiting for for black people to take over programming and it's gonna be wild. So. 02:16:07.62 Jala and Dave Yeah, no I mean I I would definitely also back that up. Um, both. Let's see well I Guess some of my interest in programming and and few games. Ah but specifically. Um, a lot of my interest in martial Arts films and in like Japanese anime were from my friends in high school and they were black and they were showing me like this is the coolest thing ever like yeah this is really cool. Thank you for showing this to me. 02:16:34.76 Marcus Right? Exactly? Yeah name. 02:16:37.93 Jala and Dave We yeah personal stories of course I was the weirdo who was like recording it off of Tv when air Sailor Moon aired at like fucking four o'clock in the morning or whatever it was and I would watch it when I woke up in the morning and then like I would mail order off for VHS tapes. Yes. 02:17:02.51 Jala and Dave Yeah, my mine were like laserdiscs my um friend her? Yes, yeah well her uncle was in New York City and he there was a some little import shop or something and he would send her like random laserdiscs and. Then she would like dub those onto vhs for me and so I would just have my little vhs dub of of laserdisc. 02:17:27.12 Marcus Nice, Yeah, no, and the funny just to bring it all full circle like you know between video game between anime video games martial arts the whole thing. Ah the most popular versions of Street Fighter have been like the most Urban like. 02:17:44.89 Marcus Street fighter 3 street for street fighter 3 was like they really leaned into like black fandom. It was all hip hop and the new one and now street fighter six is the same thing. It's like it's specifically geared towards black people. 02:18:01.71 Marcus And they because they know that that's where they're gonna That's where that's where it's gonna make have the biggest impact and they where they're gonna gain the most popularity out of it because they know who's playing So it's yeah, it's just cool. So. 02:18:14.43 Jala and Dave Um, we can end it on that note, that's that's our wrap up thought. Yeah yeah, but we've we've covered a lot of ground talking about a lot of different things. 02:18:19.34 Marcus All right? nice. No so I'm not. 02:18:28.52 Jala and Dave Ah, definitely if people are interested in this subject like I said um I will try I will endeavor to put a list of some of the books that I mentioned in the show notes along with some of those stories and other tidbits as much as I can remember to put them in and other than that. Um, yeah, ah, you can look forward to episode on cybersecurity in the future and I'm sure we will do more on identity series in everything going forward but final thoughts Dave. 02:19:06.71 Jala and Dave I would say definitely check out the um, it's the internet sex creator the internet and the internet. How how the internet changed change sex and sex. Whatever it'll be in thes so that that book I listen to the audio version of it if it's It's very well narrated. 02:19:26.41 Jala and Dave Um I believe it's actually by the author. Ah it delves mainly into not only the history of the internet but um, current the things I think we take for granted in particular say um, the ability to do credit card transactions online. 02:19:46.64 Jala and Dave All porn. Yes, all all porn that was sex workers secured that like they made that happen and we wouldn't have any kind of E-commerce that wasn't weird like trying to wire cash. Um, if it weren't for that so that that book in particular like. 02:20:04.76 Jala and Dave Describes all of that and lays it out and just understanding that and gaining that perspective I think is valuable and gives up an appreciation for a lot of behind the scenes work for the internet. 02:20:19.30 Marcus Absolutely now I'm inclined to agree with that. 02:20:23.48 Jala and Dave Um, Marcus and thoughts. 02:20:32.15 Marcus The end. 02:20:36.67 Jala and Dave Best end thoughts ever. So yeah, um I will I will say yes, ah the book that Dave mentioned that will be in the show notes is worth reading. So is the internet of us of all the books that I have suggested ah slash mentioned in this episode. Those 2 are probably the top 2 that I would say would be on the must read list anyway, as for internet stuff. Yeah internet and identity especially as it has developed over time has been a kind of wild ride and like the way that we interact with each other and. How we consider each other and how valid we do or do not think of our friendships and and relationships online and like that the persona we put out there has changed a lot over time. You know, um I wouldn't have thought. Ah. At this time you know with the kind of relationship that I have with the internet now of you know masquerading as a dude you know, like when when I was just playing a male character on the internet previously. You know, but like that was a thing that happened at a time you know, but back then. I didn't think anything of it because like the relationship with the internet was very different at that time than it is today and like you know if I had ah met Dave on the internet back then I don't know how that would have panned out who knows ah you know anybody's guess that would have been a roll of the dice you know, but in today's era 02:22:02.94 Jala and Dave It's a little bit different. So yeah, quite an interesting ride quite an interesting type of thing to see. Um if anybody who is listening is a parent and has other thoughts about how you know their their kids should or should not interact on the internet. Definitely drop a line and chat be interesting. So yeah, where in the world can people find you if you were to be found anywhere on the internet Dave I think I've got some kind of blue sky thing I never remember what it is. You can find it is I guess z plus. You can google send plus I think you find me or you'll find the the fantastic movie that I took the character from or you could just look at my social media and find Dave because I at him or he replies or retweets my shit. So um. Yeah, and Marcus where in the world can people find you. 02:23:00.30 Marcus I am Marcus underscore Rassan Marcus Dot rasan and just Marcus Rassan everywhere um like blue sky twitter although I'm not going to be on Twitter for much longer because they're trying to introduce a paywall to everything. Um, that's some that's a whole other level of bullshit. Um. 02:23:04.99 Jala and Dave Yes, yes. 02:23:11.36 Jala and Dave Um, yeah instir. 02:23:18.32 Marcus So let's see yeah the Marcus Underscore rossan on Instagram Marcus Russan Blue Sky um if you type in Marcus russan you'll find me an underscore.dash, whatever. That's me my patreon is random rain. Um, is patreon.com/randomranign that's where I'm going to be posting a lot more animation updates as I go through my little passion project. So if you'll want to see some of that come over there and hand me a hand me a couple bucks also on the same on the same note. If. You don't want to subscribe and just want to have just want to do a 1 time donation and help me out my go fundme is also is also about that so you can end I believe those that link will be in the show notes if you find my social medias those links are also on all of those. So yeah. 02:24:10.38 Jala and Dave Woohoo, of course I am @jalachan in all the places that I might be found including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others so that is all for now folks. Until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]