00:00.20 Jala Hey there this is Jala! We wanted to let you know that we have released tiers on Ko-fi! Perks include shout outes on our shows access to show notes blog posts and reviews with more in the wings as we work out further incentives. We also have a new goal. Once we reach 1.5 k we will release a new podcast called Put That Cookie Down Now, an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie show covering every Arnie movie chronologically we really want to make this show but the extra work materials etc means that we need some help getting there. All subscriptions and 1 ne-shot donations apply toward the goal. So if you want to hear this content make it happen ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Thanks to our patrons Christian, notrookie and dognozzle for their generous support! [Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.30 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Adelaide (she/her) and Raul (he/him) both of whom have been on the show before yay repeat guests. We love them. 00:14.67 Adelaide So so so something. 00:18.67 Jala That I don't have a hand because I've got like my cell phone so that was me like literally beating on my chest right there to to clap. So anyway so Raul how are you doing today. 00:31.20 Raul I'm doing okay I've been the end of a it's the end of a rough week but hopefully the beginning of a better week I'm glad to be back on the show and continuing the winter of Raul. 00:41.24 Jala Yeah I know it's like almost every single episode. There's only one so far at as of this point that you have not been on recently. So and Addie how are you doing. 00:55.49 Adelaide I'm doing pretty good. Um, it's also been kind of a weird work week for me. Um, but I'm hanging in there. 01:02.39 Jala Yeah I understand because like I just got back to doing all of my lifting and now that I'm starting cut I started cardio again and that's fine except also at work we're having systems issues So like it's been a week for I think everybody. So. 01:19.91 Jala But yeah, but life kind of moves on and hopefully podcasting about something and and kind of having a giggle at this book and its weirdness will be fun. Ah on that note, what we are talking about today is the Gary K Wolf novel who censored Roger Rabbit this book was written and published in eighty one and it is the basis upon which the movie who framed Roger Rabbit is very very loosely adapted from so like we will talk first about Gary K Wolf himself and then we'll kind of go into the book from there as we kind of usually do whenever we're talking about um prose on the show. So Gary Cave wolf was born in 1941. He is still alive. He is 82 years old his newest book which according to Raul is terrible. 02:17.76 Jala Is called Jessica Rabbit serious business it released last year so um that's something he huh. 02:28.00 Raul It's um, sorry it's terrible but in an entertaining way like. 02:34.40 Jala Okay, well I mean entertaining it. It kind of like ah we were talking about it in our little like ah planning chat and you'd said more or less. It's kind of like that train wreck where it's like it's so bad that you just can't look away from it. You just have to keep. 02:49.73 Adelaide Also photograph. 02:50.68 Jala You know, seeing what's going to happen next and and how things unfold because what is even happening right now right? So yeah. 02:55.88 Raul Yeah, it's it's It's probably the worst but the way that it's bad makes it more fun to read than the second which is probably better but ends up being worse because of that. 03:08.43 Jala Well and we will talk about like ah because who censored Roger Rabbit is the first book. There are ah sequels this There are 4 total roger rabbit books but the second book was written in 1991 and kind of like onward from there and they are very very pandering to the movie's existence and rewrite everything we will kind of go into that a little bit later. But yeah, so um, going on about Gary K Wolf interesting guy he puts himself on all the book covers as Eddie Valiant he I did not realize this at first but the person the model that they use for Eddie Valiant on the cover of all these books and the the photo that's gary kaywolf himself on the cover or next to Jessica or with Jessica on his lap which is real I don't know what to. 03:55.56 Adelaide Also something. Yeah, it certainly is. 03:58.81 Jala So where do you even go with that. So it's a choice for sure. He did get into a lawsuit with Disney requesting more royalties from the movie he had tried for like 7000000 but received 150 to $400000 instead when all was said and done. 04:01.28 Raul It's a choice. 04:18.56 Jala But um, he also claimed publicly in 132 that he was working with Disney on a Roger Rabbit prequel movie but seeing as a decade passed since then and there has been no movie that obviously did not happen and I kind of feel like probably. Ah, what happened is since that didn't pan out. He decided he was going to write his own prequel because didn't you say Raul that the Jessica rabbit serious business book that just was released last year is supposed to be a prequel. 04:46.89 Raul Yeah, it it takes place in present day like Jessica has an iphone and she's a human but it ends I don't want to spoil this horrible book. But um. 05:00.37 Jala Ah, in case listeners want to have a train wreck. Yeah. 05:02.42 Raul At the end it. It lays the groundwork for the creation of toontown at the end. So I guess technically this movie is set in the future rather than the 40 s I don't know one of sort of 1 of the themes. 05:07.26 Adelaide How weird. 05:12.61 Jala Who even knows because it is it is yeah. 05:21.21 Raul I've I've picked up on his books is don't think too hard about it. 05:23.10 Jala Any of it ever because he absolutely does not go to the trouble of trying to research anything and that that's something we will talk about I am sure. Um, but yeah, he the Gary K Wolf does not research a damn thing when he's writing his book so anything that he has is always like the. 05:42.77 Jala The weird surface stereotype version of itself and like you know the bad I'm just going to pull up a dictionary and pull out words and then you know insert those randomly? Yeah, so um, but that being said like the the first Roger Rabbit novel is actually worth reading. Um later ones unfortunately are not so much. 06:02.82 Jala Unless you like train wreckx but the first book is very creative in a lot of different aspects and really show a lot of thought and um world building. Unique world building and some of the characters are way more complex in the original novel than they ended up being. In the movie version and we will again kind of dig into that a little bit later a little bit more about Gary K wolf he had trouble selling his first roger rabbit novel but eventually a small publishing house bought it and it was right after that that Disney saw it and then. Approached him for movie rights. 06:39.75 Raul Apparently according to him he was rejected over a hundred times. 06:46.98 Jala Yeah, yeah, well and then too. Ah, he was saying about him. Yeah about how he kind of came up with the idea for this book in the first place he says from his own website. It was watching Saturday morning cartoons for research purposes. That inspired Wolf's idea for Roger Rabbit it was during the commercials says wolf I saw Tony the tiger and the trix rabbit and Captain Crunch Cartoon characters talking to real people and nobody seemed to think it was odd I thought. What a great idea for a novel a place where toons lived side by side with humans I wove that into a mystery and bingo I had my book. 07:25.91 Adelaide I Think that's really interesting and we'll get. We'll get into it later but given like what toons are supposed to be in the universe like um, just like I mean you know obviously? ah. 07:41.10 Adelaide Again, like we'll talk about it later but there's a little bit of a racial allegory going on there in the in the universe. Um, so the fact that he looked at commercials and he was like oh yes, how interesting toons living with humans is is a little bit funny to me. 07:55.71 Jala So 1 thing I didn't look up is when Mary Poppins was published or or came out in the movies and stuff when did Mary Poppins appear because like in Mary Poppins there are little cartoon critters that are next to humans and they are interacting with 1 another? Yes, granted statically. Um, you know we kind of talked about on the ah podcast episode about the Roger Rabbit movie about the animation but like anyway there are bits of interaction between cartoon characters and real people. In that movie and I don't know when that came out versus when he was writing his book. Ok so like a long time before so he didn't it's weird that he decided commercials was how he was going to pick up on that rather than looking at Mary Poppins which already did that ok, but. 08:32.38 Raul And it came out in 1964 08:48.51 Raul It's kind of a good metaphor for his lack of research. 08:51.41 Jala But right, right? So ah anyway like the lowest hanging fruit. That's the one we're going to go with um so the writing style of these books. It's similar to kind of a Raymond Chandler novel because it is supposed to be kind of like a noir detective deal. But with more sarcastic and jaded prose and it's filled with lots of similes metaphors and puns. But it also has really highly visual word usage. Um I like the writing style. But apparently I only like it like in small doses like I liked it in the first book by the time I got to the second book I was kind of over it. You know like 1 and done is about as far as I wanted to go with it. You know at the same time It's so weird. 09:28.78 Raul Um, yeah, it's it's it's this weird combination of really good and really bad like like like he's making fun of a Raymond Chandler novel which sometimes works like the the ways that. Eddie grabs a drink. There must be 80 different ways in this book where or he describes like ah I I dug a well and found some bourbon at the bottom or whatever but then he'll turn around and call Jessica Rabbit Roger Rabbit's vava boom mate and you're just like no. 10:03.80 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's just I don't even know what's going on it kind of bounces all over the place in terms of quality right? The the quality of it. Um, sometimes it's really interesting and catches my attention I'm like oh that's a unique way of thinking about you know and and framing that. 10:21.23 Jala You know so like an example of how he sounds so Carol Masters wasn't at her studio. So I tried her at home. She lived in a partially toond partially human neighborhood that real estate agents called ethnically ethnically enriched and urban renewers called blighted. And then another quote her clothes mostly sweaters shirts and jeans hyphenated at arregular intervals by a few frilly party numbers hung on a trapeze style bar suspended from the ceiling like it's very very visual and some of the ways that he mentions it like oh ethnically enriched means actually. Pretty blighted and pretty pretty rough territory. And oh these clothes are hyphenated irregularly by a few you know, different items that are are you know fancier in things like it's interesting. The word choices that he's using. It seems very intentional at times and then other times it's. Kind of again that curse of low hanging fruit that he seems to have right? So do you? 1 of you want to read about ah like the the little passage of Rogers Psychiatrist because that I think paints a really good picture of how he describes most every toon or most everything in this book. 11:38.77 Raul Sure? Ah Rogers Psychiatrist agreed to see me after hours in person he presented as ah as imposing a demeanor as a toond Beaver Beaver could he moved slowly and with great precision so that the layer of fat that plumped out his lower body gave him an air of portly dignity. Rather than jiggly overindulgence he kept his broad flat oblong tail tucked up and away in a special pocket sewn on the underside of his white jacket a gimmick that made him resemble a cross between the hunchback of Notre Dame and a ping pong paddle his head hair the same slightly Muddy Brown as a river bottom parted down the middle and combed to each side hiding his stubby ears. He waxed his scraggly nose whiskers and twisted them into a handlebar so curvaceous that in bad light. He might be mistaken for a Hardy Davidson yellow- Tinted Aviator glasses camouflaged his ridiculously bulging button eyes and broke up the solid arch extending from the tip of his nose to the top of his head to satisfy his cravings for something to gnaw. He kept the number of mahogany wood turnings in an in an antique umbrella stand beside his desk. Ah, solid silver dustpan and whisk room took care of the wood chips. 12:49.57 Jala So in this passage you get a very very clear visual image of what this guy looks like you get some interesting ah comparisons that give you immediate visuals like hunchback of Notre Dame Ping Pong Paddle you know. 13:05.42 Raul Harley Davidson 13:06.53 Jala Harley Davidson slightly Muddy Brown like a river bottom since this is a beaver. He's pulling that imagery that is evo evocative of beaverness right? So like he's doing a lot here and it's really kind of interesting and then there's also some world. 13:21.38 Jala Building because he has a special pocket sewn on the inside of his jacket to shove his tail in so that he can look you know like more professional and that's that's pretty cool like because there's even thought about that world building in this little package. So. 13:34.90 Raul Yeah, and it's it's characterization. It's It's really good. It's probably longer than it needs to be but it's it's good stuff. 13:39.69 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and I think that's kind of how it goes on anytime. He's describing a new character that he really gets into because like I feel like there's always 1 or 2 paragraphs describing. 13:58.74 Jala The character whenever he's really excited about that character like Baby Herman and Jessica rabbit both have long paragraphs talking about what they look like. So. 14:07.54 Raul There's I think that this tendency getting out of hand is kind of a ruined book too because he'll spend page after page like just there you meet somebody who's a duck and he's just doing duck puns nonstop. 14:19.21 Jala Yes, yes, non stop the whole time. Nothing is happening. 14:22.80 Raul Where nothing happens in this entire scene except he's just duck pun after duck pun and it's like we get it. You're good at this come on and we want to read the book. 14:31.99 Adelaide Um, you both um, read the book right? Okay, um so I listened to it on Audiobook and I wonder if that's one of those things where like it's a little less. Um. 14:46.97 Adelaide Like dense to process if you're hearing somebody say it versus like actually having to read it it itself because like when I think of I I interact with like noir style fiction mostly through ah movies or Tv shows. Um in which case you have there's the component of like the the. The main character like self narrating. Um and so like having it presented in audio maybe like is easier to absorb than just having to like read through paragraph and after paragraph of like simile and metaphor. 15:21.45 Jala I would say to a certain extent. Yes I listened to the first 2 books on audio and also read them physically having like an ebook version and. 15:32.38 Adelaide Of course. 15:35.83 Jala When I was listening to it. It went down a little bit easier but in book 2 It's so excessive that even in the audio format. It's still too much so like reading it on a page is even harder on book 2 than you know, the first book is because like it's just um, he spends so much time doing that. 15:54.41 Jala That kind of stuff but some of the other indications of ways that he writes so he's talking about a police officer just then another police car squealed up outside the rear door opened and out came captain Rusty Hudson he worked the human side and had a well-earned reputation as the most feared kind of law and order fanatic one with a self-starter but no break like that's a good explanation. You know like that that tells you a lot about that character in in a sentence cool and there isn't yeah. 16:22.80 Raul Um, it's it's Concise World building. Sorry. 16:29.72 Jala Yeah, there's another one where it's a you still keep up with comics the way you did in the old days pops. He showed me a set of teeth with more gaps than a guilty man's alibi so he does that the blah blah blah then ah blah blah blah he does those kinds of similes all the time. So. 16:45.59 Raul I Think those are kind of required for nor story though. 16:49.72 Jala Yeah, his gumball flicked back and forth between his cheeks like he had 2 competing Mr Tooth decays in there engaged in a cannon battle over his few remaining molars I think though that um, the first book does a better job of kind of like spreading that out between. 17:09.40 Jala Um, that the sarcastic jaded sounding Simile metaphor stuff with you know, just actual content of what's going on in the story whereas in the second one it feels like it's more padded with the trappings than the actual narrative. So. Does that sound accurate to you roll. 17:27.37 Raul Yeah, that's how that's how it felt reading it like there's not much plot here like there's maybe a third of a novel's worth of plot with an entire novel's worth of words. 17:37.77 Jala Yeah, and that that's the again the second one the first one though is is actually pretty pretty well paced in everything like there. The the writing is kind of hit and miss. But I think there's more hits than there are misses in the first one. 17:53.30 Raul Yeah, well 1 thing I want to make clear is this is ah a good book if the movie didn't exist like the the movie makes it seem worse because the movie is really really really good but this is still a good book like I would recommend reading it, especially if you've seen the movie. 18:05.28 Jala So spoiler I actually liked the first novel roger rabbit novel better than I liked the movie and part of that is because the Roger Rabbit novel not only has a lot more world building going on in my mind. Ah, because like the movie is is kind of like oh we've got to have the the Disney and the Warner Brothers characters in here and we've got to do this that in the other you know like it's it's got some things distracting a little bit um and then too the characters are flattened out because they're trying to cram a lot of story into you know, like a certain. Length of film and so like the characters get flattened out Jessica Rabbit for example is and roger both of them are very very different in the book versus the movie and I like them both better in the book than I do in the movie. So. 18:57.14 Raul The one character that benefits from the flattening though is Eddie because he is most luckily most of the most of his crapulence is inside of his head like he he generally doesn't say racist or misogynist stuff but he thinks it nonstop. 19:16.17 Raul And the fact that you can't read his mind makes him a much better character in the movie. 19:20.72 Jala Yeah, yeah, and a lot of it is who is just kind of carried by the actor. You know like the actors portrayal and Disney's kind of Disney fiing it a little bit. Um, all of that actually kind of benefits Eddie's character for sure because like. And take all of the stuff that I I have trouble with when it comes to noir media and then coalesce it into one character and then Eddie is kind of the manifestation of that but only like when you can see into his head I e when you can read him in the books he sucks. He's terrible. 19:54.79 Jala So I would like to sit with just the development of the world building and everything in the novel though. So for example, the toons in the novel are not animated characters. They are comic strip characters. So there's a lot. That goes into the world building around this fact in the book that of course does not appear in the movie because it doesn't exist there like say. For example, they have coloration that is dot matrix printer coloration. So like a quote she said that Jessica said that. 20:32.86 Jala The tiny dots that gave color to Roger's skin coalesced into splotches so large that given an Ear Bob in a transplanted tail. He could pass for a calico cat. So like that that's. The the dots are doing things they're coalescing. There's you know, merging together to make bigger splotches of color and stuff which you sometimes see happen in printing of old comics and stuff from like um newspapers and the like so that's a really good visual. 21:03.95 Raul That's then that's another thing that the the lack of explanation which I normally I would say you know it's fine because it's a mystery but with the the rest of his work is like it's obvious that Gary Wolf didn't think of this like There's no like it doesn't make a lot of sense like are he never they never clarify if the toons are 2 d like paper cutouts like if you see them from the side are they flat are they 3 d like do they take up space in the world. Um, you know I think like what. Where did they come from like Jessica says she was not bad. She was drawn that way like who drew her like like none of this gets even like they don't even think that that's a question you might ask. 21:54.14 Jala Is is that quote in the book I don't remember Okay well well we had the same book. So yes, it must have been in there and I just you know like passed over because I'm like oh yeah, whatever and moved on. So yeah I know that's that's. 21:59.85 Raul Um, it was in mind. 22:05.56 Adelaide Specificity. 22:12.57 Jala What's interesting is that the word balloons are definitely three d so I feel like I feel like the toons are also 3 d they probably can become flat but they probably have the capacity to like will themselves into a 3 dimensional form is what I'm I'm thinking because. 22:29.53 Jala You know there are points where Eddie is like shaking hands with Dick Tracy well if he's flat like that would be described in a very specific manner that is not you know the way that it's described so you know and there are times where toons more humanoid toons can possibly depending upon what they're wearing. Pass as an actual human. So if that's the case then that means that they are in fact, 3 d ah probably because of a force of will more so than anything else because like their word balloons can become flat but they are also 3 d and there's a lot to talk about with the word balloons. So. 23:07.18 Jala Because they are comic strip characters every time they talk they have word balloons humanoid toons actually have the ability to suppress their word balloons and speak only vocally like Jessica does this for example, um, but Roger Rabbit who is. What is called a quote unquote barnyard because he's an animal in animal toon he doesn't and so he has word balloons every time he talks he opens his mouth and they speak you know these toons speak vocally but they also have a word balloon that pops up around them. 23:42.33 Raul Yeah, and a little bit of weirdness Lynn the later books they're silent in this one. It seems like they speak and they make the bubbles. 23:42.45 Jala With the same text. 23:49.60 Jala But well so yeah because um, so in in the original book. It says like most humanoid toons Jessica suppressed her word balloons and spoke vocally only. 24:04.74 Jala Thus enhancing even further her human image. So yes, they are definitely talking with actual voices. But then also having a word balloon pop up but they can suppress the urge to I don't know how that works but whatever like we don't We don't know how toons operate Anyway, we're just supposed to hand wave at it and. 24:22.97 Jala Just move on down the road. 24:23.60 Raul They they have ah like a gland that's basically a blowhole on top of their heads it like that that question gets answered. 24:27.32 Jala Ah, yeah, pretty much me. So yeah, there's some some other different quotes that relate to this and Addie you haven't talked for a minute. Do you want to mention the. Some of these other quotes that. 24:46.50 Adelaide Sure, Ah, so there's ah well, that's the silliest thing I've ever heard me an ogre. He launched a partial balloon but the feigned haha inside fizzled out through the balloon stem and with a resounding blat splattered. 25:02.12 Jala So like these word balloons I wonder are the actual toons themselves making the word balloons do these things or is this just like a visual representation of like what they're feeling or whatever. 25:02.69 Adelaide Across the rug. 25:18.12 Adelaide It seems like the way that they talk about them in the book like they are like it like it would be in an actual like comic strip. They are like representate shins of like. The emotions that are being communicated or like whatever is happening in the sentence. Um, but like again then like you have Humanoid toons that can suppress their word balloons. So There must be like a certain amount of intentionality. 25:53.13 Jala Well the the next quote the next quote actually kind of sometimes the toons can impose themselves on it so whittle on that Rocco de greasy rogers word balloon had originally contained something far stronger but always conscious of his family rated image. He had. 26:11.65 Jala Hastily xed it out and replaced it with a statement less profane. So I wonder was that like a whole physical process that he actually like Drew x's or was that like who even knows who even knows like that would ruin the pacing to stop and talk about that at that time. But. 26:29.37 Jala You know it's It's interesting that the word balloons kind of have some probably some mixture of like intentionality but at the same time. Um, just they exist as their own independent entities kind of. 26:42.80 Raul Yeah, and I would assume that some of them are like some of their cat not categories. Ah some of their characteristics are unchangeable because um Eddie measures the size of the bang. Um. 27:00.22 Raul Word balloon to determine the the caliber of a gun that shot roger and and there was one I thought this was like I enjoyed it even though it kind of wrecks everything but 1 of the word balloons is described as being like lead and it drops. 27:18.47 Raul And then when it hits the floor. It makes its own little word balloon that says thunk which which I thought was great even though it ruins like all the world building. 27:24.89 Jala Yeah, yeah, well I mean like it kind of feels. It's sort of like okay we haven't gotten to it yet but toons can also make a doppelganger of themselves and they often use this when they are doing stunts during performances. 27:41.76 Jala So and like the first time we see this happen is with Jessica she's on set and then she has like ah a doppel that you know does some dangerous thing in place of her and so that but we will get more into that in a little bit but like they had the capacity to make that and then that doppelganger. 28:00.89 Jala Is like not the same as the original toon and they have like their own independence to them. So yeah, and so and so there's that so kind of it kind of makes me think that. 28:06.84 Raul Which is kind of horrifying if you think about what they're made for. 28:17.67 Jala Word balloons are kind of along those lines too like there is a certain amount that the word balloons are actually independent. Um, even though they don't have like a characterization or and maybe necessarily like a consciousness like the word balloon doesn't itself. Add more words it can make on a matapea but it can't. Do certain things and it's not treated like another toon. You know. 28:40.90 Adelaide And actually now that I think of it. Um, one of the reoccurring plot points is that um Roger plays the piano and what he does. It makes an actual musical score like sheet music come out. Um out of a no. Normal piano I presume I don't think it's ever really specified. But I wonder like so does that seem to imply that like every time toons do anything that could possibly make a sound They also make like sound balloons to a cup. Accompany it or like is it a toond piano and that's why it's like making the music physically come out of it. 29:22.92 Jala Well I kind of feel like because there's other instances where roger is interacting with another physical object and it's not specified whether it's a toon object or not but it still is having like on Amato Pia I think it's like attached to the toon themselves like they they generate word balloons. They also generate sound balloons because if they were in a comic as you know which is where they came from in the first place they would have these automatically for you know, banging on a piano. There wouldn't be like. 29:52.71 Jala Ah, silent panel with no Automotipia you know there would be those those sounds so like but word balloons too and I don't want to actually read the whole quote or anything like that. Um, but word balloons of dead toons can actually show the time of death and this is a big big big plot point. 29:55.33 Adelaide Um, yeah, that's true. 30:12.40 Jala So basically the word balloon kind of has rigor mortis set in like it gets hard it hardens and like it starts to fade and. 30:23.47 Jala Scientists actually can like measure it and do whatever and like do forensics on it and figure out the time of death they would measure its rate of hardening and use that to determine the time of death and the words Cloud over and fade. 30:38.14 Jala So it's kind of interesting that that's like an artifact a physical artifact in the world that doesn't just automatically disappear and word balloons are also repeatedly gathered up and repurposed in these books like um, somebody has you know, generated a bunch of question Mark balloons and. Balloons popped letting the question marks parachute to the floor I was tempted to scoop them up and pocket them since I knew a book publisher who bought them to cut typessetting costs in his line of whodunits. 31:08.79 Raul Yeah, and I think I don't remember which book it is but they mentioned that toontown is lousy with just discarded word balloons like litter on the gutters and everything. 31:17.70 Jala So That's really kind of interesting that those those kinds of artifacts like you know is is it a thing What it's kind of interesting because if they're repurposing those word balloons like in the second book. There's a point where. Um, one of the toons dictates and generates word balloons and then his secretary takes the word balloon and cuts off the edges of it and flattens it and makes it into like a ah you know correspondence for the business and sends that out. So like if that guy who. 31:55.29 Jala Dictated that died does that mean all the word balloons that are out there in the world that used to be attached to him then also fade like that's a whole interesting. Yeah, that's a whole other mystery right there? Yeah I know like there's. 32:03.53 Raul That's a whole other mystery hook like you can make a whole mystery around that. 32:12.24 Jala It's interesting because there's a lot of world building but there's also not and a lot of time without breaking pace in the novel to kind of delve further into it and that's part of why I was so fascinated and like I want to read the other books and see if there's more little nuggets of this kind of stuff unfortunately not from the part that I read. 32:30.58 Jala Is there more of that roul like in the third and the fourth books is there any kind of like world building that kind of adds more to this. 32:37.86 Raul I I don't think so I mean it's that the problem is that like I know you like the books more than the movie but Gary Wolf yes sorry but but Gary wolf himself seems to like the movie more than the first book because all the books. 32:57.70 Raul Are sequels to the movie to the point where roger in this book. Rogers Brown in the sequels. He's white um and characters that die in this one are back like this book basically never happened it ends up it ends up being a dream. 33:14.16 Jala They retcon that in the second book which was released in 1991 so 33:14.63 Raul That one of the other characters had ah and and I guess Gary Wolf realized that doppels make mysteries too difficult so they just are never mentioned again past this book. 33:31.50 Jala Well I mean they work really well for the purposes of this first novel for sure. Um, but like later on for sure. It's like you know they, they're never mentioned again and like it feels like the complexity of the mystery. At least in the second book is just way way lesser like this this first book goes in so many different directions and misleads you so many different times that until I was on the very last words of the last page did I actually know for sure like what was even going on and then I'm still kind of questioning like. Was that really the the answer you know? so so I believe um is this raul or Addie who put the ear puffs. Note. 34:15.34 Adelaide So I Found a couple of things ah in the in the book that were just like throat like they felt like world building aspects but they weren't ever really like expanded on so the ear puffs are something that come up a couple of times. And generally seem to be associated to toons but I couldn't like in visualizing or trying to think about like what they were I couldn't like I don't know what an ear puff is like it doesn't make sense to me. 34:40.25 Raul Oh I Assume that it's like when when a cartoon gets angry like they the smoke comes out of their ears I That's what I visualized. 34:49.37 Jala Yeah, yeah, that's well because like doesn't that happen when somebody's taking a drink and it's like ah a you know rough drink or something like a strong one and then like they have ear puffs right? So I think. 34:59.62 Raul Yes, toon shine. 35:05.51 Jala I Think that's what that is. It's like you know when they're when they they come across certain kinds of situations. A kind of a sign of stress I Guess ear puffs. So. 35:14.34 Adelaide Yeah, um, okay, and then the other thing was ah something I think that's only mentioned in the book once which is memory aid fashion Again, it's another thing that like is associated with toons. Ah but like I don't. 35:31.75 Adelaide It's never really like explained enough that I have an idea of what it's supposed to be so the quote that it comes from is that's how toons got their reputation for having excessively poor memories because. So many of them traipsed around with string knotted memory aid fashion around their gloved fingers. 35:51.85 Jala Okay, so tying ah a string around your finger to remind you of something is like an old timey thing that people did long before they had cell phones to put reminders you know? Um, so like that's that's a thing like you know. 36:07.88 Jala You You need to remember your promise will tie a string a string around your finger to remind you and that that's a thing um but like it's old timey. So um, there's that and I would assume that this is even mentioned because toons in. 36:27.50 Jala Actual comic strips and things like that they're so instantized right? like they're episodic to the point that there's not continuity between most you know newspaper comics at least of the style that um Gary K Wolf is is talking about you know like. 36:43.42 Jala Each one is an individual thing so there's not any carryover of memory from 1 comic strip day to the next. So that's what I would think it's referring to is like he's trying to explain away or you know add like a little bit of. 36:51.21 Adelaide Gotcha. Okay. 37:00.78 Jala Ah, quote unquote real You know realistic element of well they have to remind themselves to to actually remember these things because you know there's not any memory carried over memory from Comic strip to Comic strip. 37:09.65 Adelaide Gotcha. 37:13.34 Adelaide Ok I I guess I could see that in my head like for some reason since everything like there are so many like physical aspects of toons Anyway I was thinking that like maybe their memories like are literally stored as like. 37:30.87 Jala Strings. Okay, yeah, that would be a whole well that would also make sense if they were actual strings and therefore like when they get lost because they will get lost if it's on your hand duh. Ah you know like it'll they'll fall off or whatever you know. 37:31.00 Raul That would be pretty cool stuff. 37:46.71 Jala That they lose that memory and that's why they have such bad memories is because it's actually a physical object. They have to try to hold on to and they don't So yeah that that actually I think I like that explanation better. You know like you know? Yes, ah the the rationale that I presented makes sense. 38:03.33 Adelaide Awesome. 38:05.32 Jala But I like the idea that they are actually in the strings and because Gary K Wolf kind of like goes and rewrites his own stuff. Anyway, I think we are one ah hundred percent validated in rewriting it for him to make it better. So yeah, right, right. 38:21.00 Jala So let's sit with the concept of segregation which is like ah you know the race the racial aspects of this book because toons versus humans as like a race kind of situation. It's kind of everywhere in this book. There's segregation. There's toon areas of town. There's yeah you know. 38:39.58 Jala Cafes and stuff that only serve toons or only serve humans and there are some that are mixed but like they're not everywhere in that kind of a thing. So um, there's ah, a quote from one of the police officer folks a burglar alarm I guess. Although I've never seen 1 quite that sophisticated in a home that's because it's a special custom job put in by the builder of this development. It's a big selling feature out here since 2 neighborhoods routinely report the city's highest burglary rates. Can you imagine they steal from 1 another almost makes me ashamed to be a toon. And does that not feel like this white cis head white man is like hey you know the the people in the minority neighborhood steal from each other so we're just going to put that in the the book in in make it a toon thing like yeah. 39:28.29 Raul I I think making that come out of the mouth of a toon officer considering recent events might have actually been like unintentionally yeah correct I guess. 39:49.00 Raul Luz in um, being a police officer does not um, not go I put this like the toon identifies more with being a police officer than with being at toon which is honestly the only way I can understand a certain. 40:08.72 Jala Yeah, yeah, understand that. So yeah, like the the toon officer is separating themselves from their actual you know, um I don't know the culture I Guess the cartoons have a culture in here and that's. 40:25.52 Jala That's the thing we're talking about. But um, there's also another segment about the toon officers. What can I do for you sir asked Cleaver even though they held the same rank the department's age old unwritten law required a toon officer to defer to a human. And everybody who knew Hudson knew he would make life extremely miserable for any toond colleague deviating from tradition and that sounds like you know again, kind of a situation where it's like white and you know non-white folks had you know for a long time. I would even say even now it's still probably expected to be that way. Although I hate it. Um, you know, white people expect that and especially if they're they're um, you know folks higher up the food chain. They expect that from everybody else. So um. 41:19.89 Jala And then there's also another part this one I think is kind of an interesting thing because it kind of goes into some hairy situations. So ah was little rock's mother a human her condescending tone told me how naive she considered the question of course she was a human rocco was a human. What else could his child's mother be humans in toons can't Mate. Everyone knows that there was like you know there there persists in being people who are just like no you have to you know be with somebody of your own race like you know who hate interracial. 41:56.89 Jala You know, kinds of relationships and so like that to me. That's what that immediately read as read to me I'm like oh that's um, you know the person speaking is definitely you know a human who has prejudice against tombs. You know. 42:11.98 Raul I Understood that a little bit differently like I thought he was saying like they physically cannot like have children. 42:15.10 Jala That Well yeah, yeah I I think that that's that's also the thing but like as an allegorical thing like it's definitely like pulling racial. 42:23.80 Raul Um, but oh yeah, definitely to. 42:31.48 Jala Stuff is referring to racial stuff and like racial tensions and you know like Kkk type. Yeah, so. 42:33.72 Raul Oh yeah, definitely but later events later in the novel will prove that that's false. 42:43.36 Jala Yeah, So um, then there's also Humanoid toons versus Barnyard toons. So There's like even striation among toons themselves. We seem to get along pretty well so I asked her to dinner I didn't really expect her to accept not with her being a humanoid in me being a barnyard. But she did and that's like a classist or like ah you know, even even with them that within ah the larger toon sphere like ah, a racial divide among toons as well. Yeah, yeah, so. 43:10.61 Raul Um, yeah, like colorism. 43:11.38 Adelaide What I think is really interesting about the way that this is presented in the novel is like it's so it's weird to have a situation where like. There are just humans and presumably. They're not all white humans so you have a situation where like it's supposed to take place in the 40 s um I guess humans aren't like prejudice against other humans but they are prejudice against toons. And to have that like just have the toons take the place of like a real world like prejudiced feels kind of weird. 43:55.67 Jala Well, the thing is is that the way it reads to me just from the names that are picked in the way that the humans are described I am looking at this book and seeing an entire white cast of humans Gary K Wolf is a white man. 44:12.88 Jala I Think he wrote all of his human characters to be white people and so there isn't any kind of like difference in human you know humans being presented here like there isn't oh well, there's some black characters. There's some latino characters. There's none of that none of that none of those exist there are latino too. 44:32.44 Jala Who are terribly written in later later books. But like the second book has 2 cuban characters that Raul and I were just like losing our minds about um, they're so bad. They're so bad. 44:37.50 Raul Um, and our god. 44:43.80 Raul The lue youawa and Tom Tom latui and there's later on there is 1 1 black character who's a black humanoid toon and I think his name is Crook Enigman which is. 45:01.73 Jala Wow. 45:02.93 Raul I'm assuming giving him the benefit of the doubt that it's from enigma. But it's like really you couldn't think of another name for the 1 black character in all your books. 45:11.20 Jala Right? right? So and that's that's where it's like yeah like I I Honestly it's so wackadoo to me because it's like I don't feel like the segregation element. 45:27.21 Jala Like ok I understand that there would probably end up being segregation. Um, if toons suddenly entered our world because there would be people who would fear and not understand toons and kind of like you know other them and. All of that. So I feel like yes I I think that that's a solid translation into our world but like the fact that he's not addressing actual segregation among humans and you know there's not even any characters to represent any other kind of variety other than your stock standard wasp characters. 46:01.77 Adelaide First awful. 46:03.38 Raul And this is the 40 s too. 46:03.89 Jala Um, that that makes it a little bit. Yeah and it's in the 40 s like okay this is this is real weird. Um, you know like I I don't know that there is anything significant in so far as like progress is concerned other than the fact that Eddie eventually. Accepts some of the toons in a way that he didn't at the start of the novel so like within himself he has a slight bit of grudging. Yeah, they might be okay after all and maybe I don't completely hate them and that's about as far as progress goes in so far as like you know, addressing any of those. Racial allegory aspects. 46:42.61 Raul Yeah, it's this kind of falls under The don't think about it too hard rubric like it's good. No no go ahead. 46:48.25 Adelaide Yeah, and actually I'm sorry I I was just going to say it's interesting that you mention, um, there being like different different racial stereotype toons but not humans because like. And it's it's like a plot reveal later in the first book. But um, like the de greasy brothers. They're both also toons and they're very obviously supposed to be like Italian American Or Italian like gangster stand in characters. 47:23.40 Raul Yeah, although I think um, there's a Jewish character like I don't think they outright say that he's Jewish but I I read siles as as being a Jewish character. 47:33.38 Adelaide He has a um, a Jewish sounding last name if I remember correctly. 47:37.99 Jala Well and then to like there was ah you know racial divide among different white people in America you know like where people were like oh well, you know they're they're jewish or they're italian those are those you know or irish folks. They got you know. 47:56.00 Jala Shaft a lot of times too. You know where it was like segregation even among white people so you know and racial divides among different types of white folks. But but you know when I was sitting there thinking about it when you were talking Eddie what made me think oh. This is actually even more gross like not in the first novel but in the later novels where there are toons that have non-white ethnicities is it reminds me of blackface because like a toon is an exaggeration right. 48:28.79 Jala So then they are exaggerating these stereotypes of non-white people and that's blackface basically and they're just you know using that and putting that trapping on there but it's definitely a white dude who doesn't know anything about the culture trying to um, present that culture in a way that is comical. 48:48.66 Jala Right? That's blackface. It's straight blackface in the later novels. So you know like ah I guess I say all of that to say like first novel doesn't have that degree of of grossness going on but the purpose of the toons and the human segregation. Doesn't seem to really like be in there for any ah productive reason other than just showing the slight amount of growth that Eddie has by the end of the book. 49:21.64 Raul Although I guess in a way considering how other books written around this time handled race. Even if the humans even if the ethnic toons were humans they probably would have been characterized and they would have still been blackface I guess. 49:39.36 Raul Being toons kind of lets him get away with it. Ah, a little bit. 49:42.66 Jala Yeah, yeah, well there's a little bit of forgiveness there because toons by the nature of what they are are exaggerated and overdramatic versions. So but um, yeah, like those those. Ah. Types of characterizations again. Those come later in the later books which started in 1991 so like the second book came out in 1991 so that's um, you know separate from this presentation in this first book in the first book. It's not so pronounced. Um, like there's there's definitely like every. Every time there's mention of Eddie going anywhere to meet a toon or to interact with a toon or you know accompanying Roger somewhere or whatever. It's always you know noted the segregation that's going on and to me in the first book. Anyway, even though it doesn't come to any kind of like. Oh. There's real progress going on or anything it feels like he's just trying to use the set dressings of like a 40 s american kind of situation. You know so like it doesn't feel gross in the first book. It feels gross in the later ones in the same way that the later ones. 50:58.93 Jala Write out the first book's existence and you know pander to the existence of the movie. You know So it's like no like the later ones really are like a super step down in so many different ways like across the board every every every way that you could possibly. Um. 51:17.81 Jala You know have a degraded quality. So. 51:19.50 Raul the the Jessica Rabbit book would infuriate you because he I think he he read the phrase strong female character once and said oh that's Jessica and did not do any further research like you know as as is his wont. 51:39.18 Raul Um, like she is physically my understanding of strong female character is that it's a well-rounded character has traits is like it's basically a person. His interpretation is can kick anybody's ass like this is a strong female character. 51:55.58 Raul And you know somebody's sexually harassing her and she tells him to stop like it is. It is so surface level. 52:02.32 Jala Well I mean like to a certain degree that's kind of also a generational thing. The man's 82 so he was 81 when he wrote this book and he's from a big night. He was born in the 40 s so like you know. 52:16.89 Raul So which but I mean that means if nothing else you should understand James Bond a little bit better. Ah. 52:23.62 Jala Yeah, well you know research I mean you know Mary Poppins existed remember? 00:14.98 Jala So yeah, moving right along? We've got the doppelgangers as we mentioned before so toons can create doppelgangers with their mind that can act as stunt doubles and so on it's again, Also a big plot point for the first book. But also how long they last depends on how much energy a toon expends creating it. So That's interesting. Um, and that again that plays kind of a plot point because that that kind of puts a. Taking time bomb on a certain situation in the book as a result but other than that I don't know that there's a lot to say about the doppelgangers in general like it's definitely mm I think. 00:52.82 Raul Are are we able to spoil the book at this point or. 01:00.78 Jala Point we can just go ahead and say okay listeners if if ah you want to read this book maybe stop and go read the book or listen to the Audiobook version of it and then come back and finish up the episode to yes now you you spoil away? yeah. 01:15.54 Raul Um, okay, um, yeah, um, the roger we see in the book is is the doppel for I want to say like 85% of it. 01:27.24 Jala Yeah, large part of it. He's not even real like he's not the real real deal. He's ah just a doppel. 01:32.63 Raul And I I always thought it was kind of well not always like after reading this I thought it was kind of weird that they have dopples in the book but not the movie because comic strips don't generally have a lot of like anvils falling on. 01:49.76 Raul toons like there's no as far as I know there's no Wiley Coyote roadrunner comic strip it's it's a cartoon like all the all the violence happens in cartoons. So it it kind of doesn't make sense for them to have it here. Although they're indestructible in the movie so they wouldn't need them. 02:06.68 Jala Yeah, well the thing is is that in the movie if they added the subplot of doppelgangers then that turns into like now you have to make sure that everyone understands. 02:08.68 Raul I Don't know I think it might be just be rambling. 02:25.63 Jala What's going on because there will be kids watching this movie. Are they going to understand the concept of you can make doubles of yourself, but they're not really real. Don't worry when they die long you know that kind of a thing. 02:36.47 Adelaide Um I think for the purposes of keeping the like movie narrative a little bit more smooth. Um it makes it. It makes sense to cut. It's an interesting little like plot twist when it happens and honestly like. What I thought was going to be was that like Roger had made a doppel and they killed the doppel and the real roger was still alive. So it's like it's an interesting twist to have it just be the doppel but like yeah I could see like looking at this plot and. 03:10.86 Adelaide Thinking of like how can we streetline this or make it a little bit more straightforward and like cutting that aspect. 03:18.89 Jala Well and then too in order to make Roger sympathetic. Ah, okay, so we are in Spoiler Zone so let me let me just say that Roger is somebody who killed the character like he got killed. He got got but he also got somebody before he died and setting. 03:31.34 Raul And he tried to frame Eddie for it. 03:35.29 Jala Yeah, and he was going to frame Eddie for it and the whole 9 So like there's this whole like wheels within wheels kind of situation going on where that's that's why I say like this book. You don't know exactly where it's going until the end and then to the way that. 03:52.26 Jala Gary K Wolf explains how Jessica rabbit married Roger is so out there. But it's also like it very different from how it's presented in the movie. So Jessica does not. She's a wild child and she's a party girl and she does not want to get married. She would not she did not like Roger. 04:11.98 Jala When she first met him but Roger had a magic tea Kettle that was actually a magic lantern from Persia that you know he unconsciously made wishes on without realizing he was making wishes. 04:16.96 Adelaide My God. 04:27.45 Jala And that's how he got his contract and that's how he got Jessica to fall in love with him and like she marries him and seems goo-goo over him but then suddenly at the beginning of this book like she's no longer in love with him and has gone back to her old bad boyfriend Rocco de greasy and all this other mess. But that's because she was. Under the the you know magic of this lantern but it was like there was a caveat it was only for 1 year so after that year was up then she was back to her normal self which meant back to being a wild child. She never loved Roger she never wanted to be with Roger she was It's actually super. So she was kind of like forced into this situation unwillingly and ended up marrying Roger without actually wanting to marry him so like there was a lot of stuff going on his book. Folks. 05:09.26 Raul Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's It's not clear if if she acted like if the genie made her actually love him or if it was like an I have no mouth and I'm a scream situation but both both suck. 05:25.82 Jala Yeah, so so here it is um I've actually put some some quotes the magic lantern that made Jessica Mary Roger get away from me creep. What do you mean? I didn't leave you of my own free will you bet I did I never loved you. Never not when we married and not now and then. Another quote Roger wish for Jessica's hand in marriage you arranged it so she would cease to love the rabbit in exactly 1 year one of my favorite plays though I also like what I did to Romeo when he wished for Juliet. So this is um Eddie talking to the genie of the lantern slash teacattle. 06:04.67 Adelaide This we can you know talk a little bit more holistically about the plot if you want to lay it out in a little bit more detail but like 1 of the things that struck me as really interesting and in my mind ah hearing you talk about sort of the overwrought nature of the prose. Makes me wonder if this is just a gary wolf thing having never read anything else by him but like what he has established is like a really interesting you know world that he's built and these characters that have like actual real like. Human ah motivations and like act like normal people and and it feels like to me at least that that could be motivation enough but like then there's this whole like heel turn with. Like the knights templar finding this magic lantern and it feels so like weird and out of place and I wonder why like that was even in there to begin with if it was just like turns on top of turns and he thought that well you know the more that you can keep people guessing like the better book. It is or whatever because like. 07:15.76 Adelaide I feel like you could take the whole absolutely all of the genie stuff out of the novel and just let it be that like you know Jessica didn't actually love Robert ah Roger but like she married him for whatever reason and then went back to Rocco and like. And that could just be the story and it would be totally fine. 07:34.93 Jala Yeah, yeah, it it feels to me with a like with the bit that I read of the second book as well. That basically Gary K Wolf needs an editor he needs an editor. He might have. 07:49.62 Jala Some good ideas and might fire on all the cylinders for some of the pros but like he needs somebody to go through this and go why is this extraneous plot point in here in the first place actually and I mean like that the genie comes in because. That also plays into the de greasy brothers and like explains how they formed their empire in the first place and the fact that they are toons and all this other stuff like all of that the genie actually is a larger plot point but it's easy to forget that with all of the different twists and turns that this plot happens to have so. 08:20.78 Raul Yes, everybody's after this tea Kettle the entire. 08:23.10 Jala Um, yeah, so basically yeah, like the the way that the story starts out is Roger is stuck in a contract with the de greasy brothers to work. 08:34.84 Jala Ah, with Baby Herman whom Roger does not like and Roger plays the straight man and he hires Eddie Valiant to help him find out who wants to buy his contract which the de degree sees are refusing to sell because he's hoping to maybe like um you know, get a ah new contract with somebody else. And then Jessica left Roger 2 or three weeks prior to Eddie being hired and she allegedly left him for a rocco de greasy and so there's more with the de greasy brothers like this grudge forming right? and Rocco de greasy is then found dead and Roger is the prime suspect. Of course he actually did kill Rocco de greasy. 09:11.17 Jala And then like the whole plot point where ah, um, he forms a doppel to kind of um frame he he wanted to frame Eddie for the killing of Rocco de greasy but then he ended up getting shot and um so like he this doppel was created to. Get Eddie to figure out who shot him who killed him and and bring that person to justice or whatever. Um I don't know there's a lot going on. 09:35.19 Raul Um, yeah, did this the doppel was created to be an alibi and normally they last a few minutes but he put enough energy into him that he lasts for two or 3 days I forget. 09:51.88 Raul And that's kind of like the ticking clock at the at the heart of the plot but the whole point was the he had the the doppel go and buy something like some suspenders or whatnot and have a conversation with the person who sold it to him. 10:07.56 Raul So that people would think it was actually him because doppels normally can't do that and then there's like another plot this this is actually one of my favorite genre of mysteries is when you figure out what it is and it's like a clown car of plots where like 3 or 4 or 5 things are all. 10:24.73 Raul I'll plot it at once and that's why it makes no sense. So there's go ahead. 10:25.57 Jala Yeah, you're you? Well I actually have the quote at from the end of the book where hit they're kind of wrapping up the entire story and I have the part where he's talking about that alibi and like what what the rationale was for what happened after that. So go go if you want to go ahead and finish up your thought and then I'll share that part. 10:47.10 Raul Ah, in the in the meantime one of the de degree cs is doing a counterfeit comics like forgery plot which is really bizarre but it explains why some other characters saw roger because they happen to be there also to I think kill Rocko. 11:04.99 Raul And you also had the whole thing with the the teakettle and the genie and they're trying to get the teakettle back from Roger and just everything just all came to a head that one night and that's why nothing made sense and I to me I like those kinds of of mysteries. It's like um. 11:22.94 Jala Yeah, and of course we covered that on this show at the end of December with will Hughes so obviously and then you know like we've talked about other. 11:23.47 Raul Murder on the orient express kind of. 11:35.14 Jala Noir type stuff before and we're going to keep talking about noir type stuff because Dick Tracy is on the docket for later this spring. So like we're just going to keep on covering detective fiction and this podcast. Um the last one was a Neo Noir Vikram veha so I mean 11:52.19 Jala You know there's that there's some theming here to the kinds of media I'm talking about but um, yeah, so this this um quote from the end of the book. There was this big plot reveal quote where you know it's all being laid out for you and I'm not going to read the entire thing I'm just going to read the last part of it. 12:10.52 Jala The next store I entered I commented about the lateness of the hours. So the storekeeper would remember the exact time then I went back to the phone booth roger called afterward and told me he'd done it I gave him the name of the store so he had his alibi Pat in case, the police came by before I got back. The only thing left was to give him the red suspenders pick up the gun and plant it in your apartment. That's why I bought the lock picks so I could open your door but when I got back to the bungalow the next morning. The real me was dead. The place was crawling with police and I couldn't get in so the gun stayed put. I didn't know where to turn so I came to you and I took you on as my partner I thought we had 2 murders to solve. But you knew we only had one. That's why you weren't particularly diligent and tracking down clues in the de greasy case because you knew they'd all lead straight back to you. And in that whole exchange with the doppel. You know Eddie was like just you know despite himself saying you know what? even though I know he was trying to frame me and he was terrible I actually kind of still liked that rabbit. You know I think which is really kind of interesting and so like there was. 13:23.38 Jala Actually some degree of like complexity of character to Roger which absolutely isn't there in the movie like Roger in the movie I cannot fucking stand I hate him I hate him hate hate hate roger in the movie. Absolutely. 13:38.13 Jala And Jessica I'm just kind of like shrug I don't I don't care but like the fact that she is this unwilling participant in a lot of stuff and she just like I just want to go over there and live my wildlife over there because that's the kind of girl that I am and like you know Roger was holding her down holding her back with this like unwilling. Thing that he didn't even realize he was doing or maybe he did I don't remember you know like you? Yeah so it's like you know he's kind of wicked but also not quite that wicked you know so. 14:01.20 Raul No, he didn't know. 14:08.16 Adelaide Yeah I one of the things that I was curious about and maybe you guys can give me your opinion is do you think? So I know that it's hard to like read this book with like current sensibilities and find. Eddie to be like a likable character and every time I I'd like I was like oh yeah, this guy is maybe kind of cool then he'd like swoop in with some like terrible racist thing to think to himself or whatever. But like do you think Gary K Wolff's intention in writing. Eddie was that he was supposed to be like a likable or relatable protagonist. Ok. 14:50.41 Jala No I don't think so because like he he even is self-denigrating at points where he's like I wouldn't want to be friends with me I'm terrible. You know like he straight out says it or he's like no I'm crappy you know I'm crappy and and whatever and. 14:50.71 Raul Um, I yeah I think he was. 15:08.36 Jala You know, like in the second book ah Dolores believes him. Yeah, you know that's his girlfriend and she leaves him and he's like well makes sense to me I wouldn't date me. You know, like you know he he just kind of rolls with it. 15:19.46 Raul Ah, yeah, he's yeah, he's I don't think he was trying to make a likable protagonist who's trying to make a nor protagonist. 15:25.90 Jala Yeah, yeah, and Noir protagonists I mean like honestly I feel like Noir as a genre grew out of a bunch of like frustrated. 15:40.64 Jala White dudes from a time period where they felt that their their power and prestige and privilege was being taken away by stuff and that's why they have like femme fattals then you know, whatever and they they treat everybody in this kind of like. Cynical and patronizing way because like the actual civil rights situation at the time was not the way it had been and so their privileges were being taken away and that's where like this kind of a character developed in the first place is kind of like my. 16:16.65 Jala Sense of sense of the thing and I haven't studied that to any great degree or anything I'm just kind of shooting from the hip but that's feels right to me given the timeframe. so so yeah like and then that's another reason why I'm interested in Neo Noir because it's like well. 16:32.36 Jala Having some of the trappings of that but taking out all the crappy parts. You know like how are people writing Noir fiction these days versus that and how are they progressing it in a way that makes sense for our day and age and our time because definitely Noir was of a time and a place that doesn't exist. 16:51.24 Jala You know or shouldn't exist anymore and maybe it still does. It's kind of coming back. Ah, the way that our society is right at the moment like people are trying to bring it back at least unfortunately. So so yeah, um, Insofar as and. 17:06.64 Raul That ah aside from Eddie like basically every character kind of sucks a little bit more in the book like like like Jessica Rabbit has you know has a heart of gold in the movie like she's she's. 17:24.53 Raul Not bad. She's just drawn that way. She says that in the book but she actually is like pretty scummy um Rogers a murderer and I I found him more annoying in the book than the than the movie because it's it's hard to write charisma you know like that. I found I found Roger funny in the movie. So I was able to put up with like the stuttering and everything whereas in the book. He's just annoying. Um and Baby Herman is basically the same except a lot more I don't I don't remember if it's this one or the later ones but they. Get to a lot of sexual stuff with Baby Herman that is just creepy. Okay. 18:03.42 Jala I and that's the second book I mean like they mentioned it in the first one but and of course like there's the line here I sit with a 36 year old lust and a 3 year old dinky. 18:24.36 Jala That's like in the first book. So and he's talking about well I mean the thing is is that of course most people don't know enough about toons to realize some age and some don't and you're one of the lucky ones baby Herman plopped down on his hind end and zigzagged his fingers across the rug. 18:25.56 Raul And it gets worse. 18:42.97 Jala Depends on your point of view Eternal youth isn't everything. It's cracked up to be imagine going through life eating mush wearing diapers and sucking on plastic doodads and so on and so forth and like he's got like a binky but it's on a gold chain around his neck because he's. 18:59.58 Jala Actually like 36 but stuck being a baby forever. So and I mean like the even just the concept that he brings up where it's like actually it sucks being stuck as a baby for the rest of time because I am a toon and I just don't age. You know like that's definitely you know. 19:01.10 Raul And rich. 19:17.55 Jala An interesting little nugget of thing to think about that you don't generally think about so um, but yeah, like ah Jessica and Roger like I I think part of the reason why I like Roger better in the books is or in the book. The first one anyway. I will not I I disown all of the later books. Um, the first book. Yeah, what other books. Are you talking about Gary K Wolff never wrote anymore Roger Rabbi novels it was only the who censored Roger Rabbit um but to write. 19:37.80 Raul What other books. 19:44.81 Raul He went back to his home planet afterwards. 19:52.80 Jala Well, ah Gary Kay Wolff does write sci-fi also so that that's plausible anyway. Um, so yeah, 1 thing I like about roger in the book that I respect is that he's still irritating but he at least has. More going on upstairs like he's got more than 1 brain cell bouncing around in there and that is a plus over the movie where he is just dumb as bricks and like I'm sorry he's not charming. He's not cute. He's not funny I don't like Roger I don't like Roger I like I don't I still don't really like. 20:23.43 Jala Oh I Love Roger rabbit in the book. No I don't but like I can respect the character more because there's more dimensionality to him and the fact that he really did do the murder when you don't expect him to be the Killer is very good so you know his his kind of plot point in the whole thing and the fact that even like his doppel is being sinister. 20:42.28 Jala And is actually way more dastardly than you think you know he's going to be because of his self presentation and the goofiness and all of that so you know that that was a very good plot point he could have made any number of different people the killer and. You know it would have made sense if it was Jessica it would've made sense if it was Baby Herman or whatever because Baby Herman is a terrible person. Um, you know and Jessica's a terrible person so they have to pick somebody who's not likely and then you're like well he made a doppel how could he have been the killer well actually it's because he was creating an alibi for himself. 21:18.21 Jala And you know like he's way more dastardly than you think? So So yeah. 21:23.28 Adelaide Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen the movie now. So I don't have as good of a point of comparison. But I think I ended up like throughout the book just like maybe not liking Roger but like feeling. 21:38.36 Adelaide Sympathetic for him even even like after the big reveal and I think it's mostly just because like Eddie is so mean to him like the whole time. Even even when he's like oh well, you know I thought we were partners and like. 21:54.18 Adelaide Just you know, starting to get to like you. He's like actively very rude and mean and like it's it's I don't know I felt bad for him. Yeah. 22:04.75 Raul Yeah, he's that he's very contemptuous of them. 22:07.29 Jala Um, yeah, well and then to um, something I did want to bring up and it's going to be kind of like a rough thing to talk about because again this was written in 1981 but there is a character who. I'm not 100 % sure if the character is supposed to be trans or if it is just someone who you know is assigned male at birth but wears female clothing and is comfortable that way. Um. 22:34.28 Jala You know I I don't think there's was verbiage at that timeframe for things like that. Ah gender identity wise like I don't think ah generally as a society we had vocabulary in the common parlance at least So what did yall think about this character. 22:50.67 Adelaide I mean it. It feels like as as like Genre E and surface level as basically any of the other like quote unquote social issues in the book which is to say that like. 23:06.32 Adelaide Obvious I I don't know what like Gary Wolfe's intention was it including the fact that like I don't know si sleeves like dresses and affects as a woman sometimes but like it. It's such a nothing part of the book. It feels like it's really just there for. Eddie to like be kind of rude about and then like nothing comes of it. It's it's such a nothing part like it I don't it. It really just like if you didn't dislike this. This character before like boy wait until you see that he dresses like a woman I guess. 23:44.49 Jala I don't know and the thing is is that when I was reading like Eddie is is the same level of rood about Sidley's as he is about everything else but Eddie is also not a good character overall and is rude about everybody all the time and therefore like you know the the. 24:03.98 Jala The fact that he's not you know, exceptionally rude about Sid Slea's in particular dressing as a woman or what have you you know presenting as a woman I think is the better way to say this? Um anyway like Sid Lee's presenting as a woman is not something that is given extra. 24:23.51 Jala Attention to like I don't It's kind of like my whole question of like why is there even like the the racial segregation aspect of the toons and the like it doesn't feel like it's productive in any way. It's just kind of like reproducing maybe like a again kind of like a fear that people who would. 24:42.76 Jala You know, imagine themselves in the place of Eddie feeling you know like it feels like playing off of things that make and white men who are accustomed to privilege who are losing their privilege like these are things that make them scared. 25:00.79 Jala You know so here's another thing that makes these people scared and Eddie's got a face up against it and it's not like ah there's no real purpose behind it other than the fact that it's there and it's something else for Eddie to interact with that is yet another thing in society that you know is not approved of by his type of character. You know or his type of person. 25:21.95 Raul were were I inclined to be charitable which I'm not I would say I would say it's it's representation at least, but it's it's I think Gary Wolf 25:38.27 Raul Kind of ah he tells us a lot more about himself than he means to in his books in that like his his blind spots. The things that he assumes we would think like I just think he he thought like like oh this is something that you know this guy is ah is a pornographer. He's a. 25:58.40 Raul You know his his literal last name is lees I need to add something to him that would make everybody go oh and so he's like oh this is what I would do and there you go and I I I don't think like I just I think it was I mean it was the 80 s or the 70 s or whenever like. 26:17.14 Raul It It was just a ah ah bad thing for the character to do I think but ah maybe my my opinion is probably not as informed as either of yours. 26:28.19 Jala Well the thing to me about it is like his representation of the Cuban characters for example in the second book is not just like uncharitable but like in a lot of. 26:46.12 Jala Instances just straight up gross and hostile in a way that the presentation of Sid Sley's presenting as a woman that it's not as hostile of ah a take as the the later instances and I don't know if that's like Gary K wolf getting older. Being like so much older and then like you know calcifying if you will into like some some pre-judgments or something. But. 27:10.95 Raul Um, also 1991 was shortly after Mariel that might have had him to do it. 27:20.19 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, so I don't know I don't know like there's there's it's just kind of like at the very least. When I was reading that part. The first thing that I did was like get super tense like oh god house. How is this going to play out. Um, and then I was actually kind of surprised that it wasn't treated exceptionally differently than he treated anybody else with any other situation like he talked with the same. 27:50.78 Jala Degree of sarcasm and whatever about pops in the comic store with no teeth sucking on a gumball as he did Sid Slea's you know presenting. However, he wanted to present himself so you know like there wasn't a difference in the treatment. So at the least. 28:10.43 Jala At the very least there's that and that's about like as best as we can. We can say for that particular um part in the book. It is such a nothing part that you know again, there's just things in the book where I'm like if he had an editor. 28:25.10 Jala Help him with this and go Why is this even in here exactly like is there a purpose to this you know like that might have helped you know like well what are you trying to say with this then we need to expound on that a little bit or take this part out. You know so. 28:39.82 Adelaide Yeah that's kind of why I feel like I mean like obviously the understanding of you know, cross-dressing or being trans or what you know? Whatever you want to call it um has progressed over the years but like that that sort of pervasive idea that it was like. Connected to some sort of like inherent perversion or like you know, weird sex stuff or or whatever is so like ingrained in people's understanding and especially for the time that it feels like it's just like a reflection of that. It's just a weird like reflection of like. Understandings of the time and then also like weird genre fiction stuff. It just doesn't like you're right? It is kind of like remarkable that Eddie is like as rude to sid presenting as a woman as he would be to a woman. Um, but like. It's it's such a nothing part that it it just doesn't feel like it does anything if it's not trying to do the like oh this guy is gross like isn't this a weird thing that he does because he's a gross pornographer. You know. 29:52.60 Jala Um, yeah, well I don't know. Ah we we may never know like what Gary K Wolf was thinking about this first novel, especially this long even if he is still alive. 30:06.15 Jala If you were to ask him about that first novel I am betting at this point that he would retcon any concept he had of it and and try to twist it into the Disney approved version right? So you know like I I just don't feel like we would get an honest answer out of him about that. 30:24.60 Raul Speaking of his retcons it I was looking up earlier about um and Jessica's line I'm not bad I was just drawn that way and it turns out it was not in the original version of the book. 30:39.30 Raul But in later editions he backported it from the movie because I guess he loved this so much. So. 30:39.39 Adelaide Ow. Interesting. 30:44.35 Jala I was going to say that line does not sound like it came from the Jessica from the first novel. So so that's why it surprised me when you said it was in there I'm like wait are you for real that was in there that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, okay. 30:59.67 Raul Um, so it may not have been in your version but it was it was in mine. 31:03.81 Jala Yeah, well, that's that's whack I do so oh and I do have 1 other random extraneous fact that I do want to pop on here. So about the movie. How factoided about the making of the movie is that the guy who played the voice of Roger Rabbit ah Charles Fletcher 31:22.62 Jala Insisted on wearing a roger rabbit costume while he was on the set and he did that in order to get into Character. So like everybody's Talking. He's standing there where roger would be but it's a dude wearing a bunny hat with some ears on it and then a gigantic big red overalls a white shirt. And like a little roughly Bowtie. So like that's ah the fact that the actors are still um, you know doing their thing even though there's this fellow looking like this. 31:55.53 Jala And front of them. Um is pretty interesting but also this is probably where Gary K Wolf gets the idea for roger to turn into a human which is something that happens in the second novel. He turns into a human. So. 32:09.13 Jala It's not worth getting the book to read believe me ah I will I will just tell you that now is none of the other books exist. Don't read them. They're terrible unless you like Raul are just like the the trash fire of of this is is interesting and I want to see how it burns. So oh. 32:26.95 Jala Ah, did want to ask rawell um, you have also been reading the road to toontown which is a bunch of short stories. Um some of which I but were all of them written before the first novel or what. 32:39.50 Raul I haven't finished it but it seems to be chronological. It's a bunch of short stories from his first published story until ah Roger rabbit comes out and it's some of them are very very good like it's. 32:57.80 Raul Man I feel mean saying this, but it's is kind of surprising ah and but the the more he gets into toon stuff the worse. The books get like to to the point where I as I was reading them I didn't know when any of the books were published. 33:16.30 Raul I Thought that he was developing Alzheimer's because because the quality just drops so precipitously like the sci-fi like there's there's one where ah the main character is trying to buy memories. 33:17.91 Jala Wow. 33:32.94 Raul Because you can buy crystals that have memories and you can like get the memory of having gone on vacation or whatnot but he wants illicit memories memories from a serial Killer and then the cops raid the the shop and like it's it's good like it's it's got a. Good premise like the writing's good. It's it's snappy like it's It's good and then and then you get to like these books and they just get bogged down and I don't know like it usually you would expect someone to get better at their craft overtime. 34:09.61 Raul But then again my my appearances on this podcast haven't improved much. So. 34:12.17 Jala But I beg to differ you are are still of like fantastic quality. You were of fantastic quality. The first time you appeared on there so you are keeping your quality consistently good is what you are doing I i. 34:24.98 Raul Ah, you're ruining my joke. 34:31.20 Jala Okay, Raul you've known me long enough to know whenever anybody says a joke I'm always like but there might be some root of somebody actually seriously thinking that somewhere in their mind and I don't want them to think this thing about themselves in blah blah blah and I'm going to treat it very seriously and. 34:46.51 Adelaide I Think the suspicious is assistant. 34:46.64 Raul Um, well thank you. 34:47.74 Jala So anyway, yeah like I'm I'm kind of curious because I want to know if maybe so because he's he that Gary Ky Wolf has written some other sci-fi works around the Roger rabbit stuff like even in more recent times he has written some sci-fi so. That being said like I'm kind of interested in seeing is it just because maybe he's better at short fiction than he is long fiction and maybe he just gets you know, bogged down when he's writing longer things or is it. You know genre wise like he just needs to stay away from toon stuff. You know what is the deal exactly I mean either way. I can't say that he is the first person you know obviously who came up with this whole concept of toons and humans being in the same place but he does some fun things with it that caused like an. A very unique and kind of pivotal in terms of animation and filmography movie. You know like a special gem of its time for you know the just the sheer production value of it. Um, he he was like the spark that ignited that happening. So. Even if there are quality issues where he could have benefited from an editor and even if you know there's some shitty perspective stuff going on you know with Eddie and how he treats people and you know like persistent throughout the other books. 36:15.67 Jala Unfortunately, like there's still some good to be had here and there's some interesting writing and some interesting world building where it's like oh that's I would have never thought about having these word balloons have so much mileage the way that he puts them in this book. You know. 36:34.90 Jala And I mean like that's a twist I never thought I was going to see anywhere you know so I don't know. 36:38.70 Adelaide I Think I think when we were initially talking about it and even still now the thing that really like stands out to me about this book. Specifically is how much like world building. There is that. Like doesn't necessarily need to be there but like definitely shows that it was It was like an interesting concept to him and and I think the word balloons are a really good um example of that because like in a normal story where you just have like things that are presented. The word balloons would just be word balloons and that's all there is but they have so many like interesting interactions with them and like they're an actual like fully fleshed out plot point and I think when I was reading the book like for as good as the the mystery is and you know the the writing and The. The the metaphors and similes and whatnot are all strong and fun in this initial novel like I Really like I'm curious. Um like about the world So like reading more of it and learning those little tidbits. 37:49.35 Adelaide Was like really cool. 37:50.94 Jala Yeah, and the world building is really the reason why I was like I want to read the other books and initially we were going to cover like all of the books on show and it's just like unfortunately the other books drop so much and so dramatically in quality that it's like I can't. 38:09.35 Jala I cannot justify spending time doing more than warning people. Please don't read those books. They're bad. Um I I know. Ah, so so yeah, it's kind of unfortunate because like I was really interested in that and then two after um. 38:13.97 Raul We were going to cover the books. But then we read them. 38:27.74 Jala Read the first book I was also curious how in the hell is he going to continue the series and still have Roger Rabbit when he died like how was that even happening. Oh yeah, because they reconned it and then they just took it up as if the movie is the only real existence and went with that and I'm just like but but I don't that's. 38:47.79 Jala I'm disappointed like the movie needs to be its own separate thing I do not feel like the Dna of the movie and the Dna of the book are you know all that related I think they're like totally different branches. You know roll. 38:59.95 Adelaide Of course. 39:03.64 Raul I mean I guess one of the good things about them being so different is that I can I can 100% recommend if you like the movie read the book it it. 39:17.74 Raul There's basically aside from the characters in the setting. Not there's not a single scene in the movie that's in the book. So it's a completely new experience for anybody who wants to read it and that's a good thing my book. 39:28.97 Jala Yeah, and I was really surprised because when I first found out. Oh. There's a roger rabbit novel that it was based in you and that the movie is based on I'm like hmm and then I read it and I'm like no, there's actually like I understand there's some bad things about this book. But there's also a lot of interesting stuff going on where it's it kind of feels to me like this had the potential to be something like say like a love craft situation where lovecraft himself and I'm sorry I've read all of Lovecraft's you know, dark mystery horror stuff and like. 40:06.34 Jala I've read it. There are parts that are good but by and large I much prefer what people did with the concepts of it as they you know iterated upon it over the years since and I feel like the first Roger Rabbit novel feels like that like it had potential to be like. 40:25.20 Jala The springboard where there's some some good some bad and there could have been like this whole series of things adapted and adopted from it that could have been Better. You know and like how how does this percolate in the minds of everybody who is absorbing this book. And unfortunately the only place it went was to a movie and then not to anything since and you know like at this point because we had big techno revolution in everything and computers and internet and you know, um, Vr and stuff like that like. 41:03.21 Jala Comic Book strips are not a thing people are dwelling on anymore you know comic News Comic newspaper comics are not a thing people think about because physical newspapers aren't a thing and the dot make trix printing is an artifact that only people of our generation know Zoomers don't know what that is you know they don't even know what that is. 41:21.79 Jala So you know like there's the the world pre-internet you know is is a very vastly different thing from how it is now and so like we're never going to get that kind of interesting progression of concepts because like the concepts of the Roger Rabbit novel are so rooted in a particular timeframe and you know the cthuloid horrors of love crafty and fiction can be adapted and adopted moving forward into all different kinds of stuff not just people getting lost at sea somewhere. But um. You know or or you know coming across this thing from mis katonic anyway, like you know, like ah that that's still a throughline that that still ports forward whereas Roger Rabbit stuff doesn't really port forward. It's definitely um, you know of a time frame. He's kind of like the the dot hack video games like. 42:15.71 Jala That was like they those were trying to be like a mimicry of ah Mmos at the time and that was before everybody had Vr and all this other stuff and so like it's It's interesting because it's definitely an artifact of its time and I think there they keep on trying to. 42:31.95 Jala Pull it forward, but it's just not working because it's It's an artifact of its era. You know. 42:35.53 Raul You know, thinking on what you just said I think for for the series for the book series. The worst thing that could have happened to this book is that it became a movie because if it hadn't been such a popular movie the sequel didn't wouldn't need to include. Roger Rabbit it could have had a completely different mystery in that world with Eddie and been a much better book and since Roger Rabbit is like the 2 are there. The 2 words everyone knows from this whole series like he has to be in all of them and he's. 43:12.20 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, and definitely Gary K Wolf I feel like Gary K Wolf was trying to make sales by you know, rewriting stuff to fit. 43:12.96 Raul He's what holds it back. 43:25.20 Jala What happened in the movie and kind of expounding upon what was going on in the movie he was trying to you know ah make some more money doing that you know which is understandable I mean like he's a working author and he didn't know it was going to blow up as much as it did you know and all of that I mean he had that lawsuit with Disney trying to get royalties and more money because he's like. 43:44.96 Jala No I could live off of this for the rest of my life If you guys would just pay me for you know all of this so you know and like I understand that that desire that need that like man these people made all this money off of this concept I came up with and you know like there's there's kind of like a. 44:04.98 Jala Um, ah compromise going on with his writing where it's like he compromises and goes well I'm just I will keep writing but I'm going to have to play up to this Disney version. You know so it's unfortunate that it happened that way. But I mean such is the life of a. 44:24.26 Jala Living working author or artist or anything like I can't I cannot fault him for doing it. But unfortunately the products he is creating as a result of that pandering are not as good. They're subpar like the first one had a little bit of rough spots to it but it had promise to be like the start Of. An interesting so sequence of books right? and unfortunately that's just you know after it became a movie like that was never going to happen So All right I think we're like at the point where we are Done. We're done. 45:01.60 Adelaide Um, one thing I wanted to ah I would just in thinking of you talking about sort of the timeliness of the um story and the way that the characters are presented in the cartoons specifically ah made me think of I never saw it but the most recent. Ah, what is it rescue rangers movie um like deals with ah like 2 d animation versus like 3 d animation in a way that like exists simultaneously in the same world and I wonder if you could maybe do something with that. In terms of like representing the same kind of ideas. But um I I never saw the movie so I I don't know if it's like a significant part or not. 45:41.19 Jala Yeah, yeah, but I mean like that's what's interesting is that the Roger Rabbit movie has some of the old black and white animated characters in it and brings up the differences between. 45:43.28 Raul It's a good movie. 46:00.97 Jala You know 3 you know multiple color animated characters versus flat black and white animated characters and so like it was already kind of a dealing with those concepts just in the animation format. So. 46:18.69 Jala You know that's kind of um, an interesting poll and I mean like Gary K Wolf could have gone with just like how have comics changed you know, but that's not where he went with it I mean you know like he could have gone with how have comics changed and even talk about like. 46:35.40 Jala Now All these comics are becoming animated things and then they're becoming live action things and there's all these video games and like how do newspaper Comic strip characters deal with video games. You know, like that would be cool I Want to see that but that's not what we got so. 46:54.33 Jala Ah, again, there was like so much potential to go in directions but he didn't choose those guys they she he went over there and and followed the movie. So. 47:05.16 Jala Okay I was waiting for permission because like I think I said it twice and I'm like okay we're done Nope. Okay, we're done Nope Okay, anything else now. Ok. 47:05.46 Adelaide Okay, now we can actually wrap up. Sorry ah. 47:15.48 Raul Met now we can talk about chip and dale. 47:21.93 Jala Another time another podcast. Ok so where on the internet can people find you Addie. 47:29.37 Adelaide Um, I hang out in Jala's Slack ((Discord)) I stream on Twitch somewhat irregularly twitch.tv/sisteradelaide um yeah that's me. 47:46.39 Jala Raul May you be perceived on the internet. 47:49.10 Raul You all know not to find me so I'm not gonna make another joke about it I just wanted to say. Thank you to the audience for not finding me I assume not looking for me. But if you were looking for me, you're just bad at it I appreciate your badness but otherwise you've developed a great audience. 48:09.10 Raul And thank you for not finding me. 48:12.40 Jala Um I can be found wherever I can be found at jalachan in places on the internet including jalachan.place where you got this episode and that is all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]