[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala and Dave Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by 2 lovely guests we have Dave (he/him) and first time guest Case (he/him), yeah! 00:13.46 Case Hi hi everybody. 00:16.21 Jala and Dave Yay I love this! this is this is like 1 of the few times when somebody has been like oh excitement matching my excitement right at the top of the episode. Yes I love it. 00:23.20 Case Ah, yeah, no I'm I'm always excited to join people to talk about cool stuff and today we're talking about cool stuff. 00:29.23 Jala and Dave I know yeah I guess we should to go ahead and do that before I say oh also Dave's in the background here. Ah, but we will be talking about the nightly news which is a comic a short run comic that was compiled into a graphic novel a trade. Ah. Back in 2007 by Jonathan Hickman so very cool comic and I'm glad to have Case who is a comics guy on here to talk about things also hi Dave hey everybody I'm back again again. Yeah I've been on a few episodes recently. So. I know it's like every single every single episode recently has had Dave in the background. He's like enough of me please. But anyway, um so yeah, let the lovely listeners Case know we are who you are what you do. 01:15.90 Case Ah, so I am a podcaster I do a few shows with certain pov media. Um, so that would be another pass which is a movie analysis show that is as of the time recording on hiatus due to the sags strike which is like kind of in negotiations right now but we still't come back yet because. You know, um, and then ah men of steel which is a Superman and Superman adjacent appreciation. So ah, which jalla you have been on an episode of but it hasn't come out yet as of podcasting time because podcasting time is weird but that one was a comic so that's not being held for any reason just it takes time to. Things um, so those are the 2 main shows that I do and I also run the Youtube channel for certain pov media. So all of the animated stuff that we put up on there anim amazing quotes. It's like it's talking heads and then like slides. Ah but all of the stuff that we have on there. Ah, is usually put up by me and yeah and almost completely edited and put together byby. So that's all the things that I'm like actively working on that's public facing and if if you live in the midic atlantictic region and you want liquor I am a good hookup because I'm a liquor distributor. Ah. 02:24.27 Jala and Dave Woo there you go. So yeah and folks will know certain pov from having Matt on the show multiple times Matt has popped on for portal Matt just was on the empathy and emotional intelligence episodes. So ah Matt has been here. 02:40.39 Jala and Dave A few times. So yeah, and then Dave tell the folks what you do sure? Yeah I'm one of the co-hosts on the podcast monster dear monster and we basically take a look at monsters from their origins to their current pop culture incarnations and cover a variety of media going from. Books to movies that's and there's comic books once I think we did a scooby you comic a very long time ago, but it was it was pretty fun. Yeah, but you also did that um Batman animated thing and you read the comic for that. Whatever that one was what I don't remember. 03:17.17 Jala and Dave Oh yeah, The Doom That Came to Gotham, that was a lot of fun. We've we've done a few adaptations where we'll look at the comic and then like if they did a movie or something that came out similar and just the character was also in a comic I think we had a when to go one a long time ago too. 03:36.65 Jala and Dave Right? right? So ah, Dave's show Monster Dear Monster and my show are both on the Fireheart Media podcasting network and you can support us by going to ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia and dropping us one time donation or subscribing and there are patron tears and there are goodies and there will be more goodies probably after the first of the year at this point. Um, if you're listening to this episode this is going to be dropping in late December. So yeah, coming up soon for you. Ah more stuff more episodes of things you will want to take a look at the page to see all of that information. But I don't want to eat up our time talking about that. Let us begin our discussion of this very cool comic. So as I mentioned before this comic was written by Jonathan Hickman it was his very first comic that he worked on. He originally was working with web design and advertising before he got into comics and it really really shows. 04:36.62 Case Yeah, mentioning adaptations earlier it. It makes me think of like well how would this be adapted into anything and honestly it would be adapted into like a pitch deck like a size of a presentation like like I think that's the best way to have it without being completely insane. 04:50.48 Jala and Dave Um, it it would be some really wild and it would have to be animated but it would have to be really wild animation like I think. 04:53.74 Case Because otherwise it's popup video and your brain's going to break. 05:03.74 Jala and Dave With the right person behind it. It could be done in animation style but it would be tough. It would just it would just have to like be somebody really thinking outside the box because ah the style which we will get into a little bit later. Ah. Of This comic is visually so striking and there are lots of decorative elements to it because they are you know being inserted for like the graphic design of the page overall rather than being informative to like the space within which the characters are you know, acting. 05:38.26 Jala and Dave So um, but yeah, but like this comic was released by image comics and it was serialized originally from November Two Thousand and six to June of 2007 so keep in mind while we're talking about this that this is like. Hello old like it's it's been several years but like boy is it ever even more relevant than it was I think back in its day when it first was released so um, just to let everybody know also up top. Ah, we will have a spoiler wall so we will talk kind of generally we will talk about what it looks like we'll talk overall plot stuff if it sounds cool pause the show go read it real quick and then come back. Well I say real quick. It's actually takes a while to get through. Um, just because it's so dense. 06:22.62 Case Yeah, yeah, sex issues can can Blitz buy for some books. This is not one of those books. 06:31.46 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, so ah in its day. The nightly news was nominated in 2008 for an eisner for best limited series and um, Hickman's work consistently keeps on getting nominated for stuff. But I think he he only like more recently started to win things. He was nominated for a long time but he got like what whatever the Inc Inc something award and 2019 I think was like was that the first time he got an award I don't even remember. 06:57.92 Case I don't know I mean he's blown up as a name as as a result of being attached to the X-Men franchise in the last couple of years previous huge runs for other books and like even once it got referenced on like Rick and morty and stuff. But um, but like the X-Men line has become is usually where people like. 07:16.37 Case Became very distinctly aware of who Jonathan Hickman was and what his style was which you know when you look at when you look at this book. It's his first comic and you're like okay so paired down that's why we have like the big text drops in like xmen books now. 07:28.47 Jala and Dave So he had after he'd done several creator owned works then he went off to work with Marvel and worked on fantastic 4 and the avengers and the new avengers and then also X-Men. He's also currently working on a series called. g o d s where a character named win teams up with Dr. strange to fight a new threat. The first issue of that dropped on october four of this year so um you know as of the time this came out. There's like 2 3 issues out of that. So. Dave had you ever read anything from jonathan hickman before this I had not ah the most I had read adjacent was ah the creators doing the foreword um had done the losers and a few other similar titles. So I've read things in the same. Similar style. There was another title. Um dmz I think that came out maybe 2004 ah that reminds me of this this is just more text heavy right? So um. Let's hit everybody with our our overall first impressions of the book after I give a very very brief very brief plot summary so in this book. The main narrative is that there is a terrorist organization called the first church of the brotherhood of the voice and these folks. 08:58.65 Jala and Dave Run around and start killing journalists. That's how that's that's the main thing that's the setup and they are set up in the like ah in place of like a protagonist. So ah, they are fighting against fake news. So everybody these days knows all about the. You know buzzwords fake news. But ah yeah, that's that's our setup is that there's like this terrorist organization. There is this one particular guy. Um John Geitin who calls himself the hand and he is the hand of the voice he is the one who is the mover. And and director of the brotherhood and so he is like your your protag in here. So um, with that being said, what does everybody think about this book I'll kick to you first Case. 09:50.14 Case Um I I like I thought it was a really interesting book. Um I think my my first reaction was oh this is Hickman doing some sort of Mashup of v for vendetta with trans metropolitan like the the. Referencing the character as the voice him as the hand felt very much like the government agencies and v for vendetta and there's sort of a similar kind of dystopian kind of ah reality to it all like like there's this like grim feeling that like yeah, it's it's all going to be shitty. But. But with violence we can. We can make it at least like shittier in a specific way. 10:28.86 Jala and Dave Ah, right right? 10:31.36 Case But I enjoyed it I thought I thought this was fun and I thought that ah that it ended up being a work that I that I I didn't fully see how it was going to go from the beginning and thus I was like pretty engaged the whole Time. Um. So I rather liked it. Um, and yeah it it man it looks like a a 2006 comic I will say that part it like an image 2006 comic like referencing like the losers or thinking about like why the last man or like anything coming out in this like window of time around there where there's like a lot of white. And then like there's a lot of love of Beige or like Earth tones in it all and that's cool, but it was just like Oh yeah, no like when you when I stopped and looked at the year I was like yep, that's right? ah. 11:17.81 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, for sure it definitely has those those same palettes and aesthetic sense to it. So ah, but again, like I mentioned it just it really just to me smacks of Oh yeah, he worked in advertising for sure. He also definitely did web design because this looks like. 11:37.70 Jala and Dave You know somebody has just designed the the splash page of the x you know so ah, Dave how about you? What did you think about this as I was going through and reading it I was trying to decide if I enjoyed the the super inclusion of infographics. And I found myself kind of really wanting to read the statistics and the little talkinging points. The little footnotes that are kind of just I can't say they're littering the page they're they are the most of the page composition and then there's some artwork splashed in the background. Um. 12:16.11 Jala and Dave Because of that it really put me in like the the headspace of the time like I could cast myself back to what was going On. Um in 2006 and kind of just seeing the talking points and the point of view of. The the cultus and like why they were doing what they were doing So It's not it doesn't make the whole thing relatable but it makes it understandable and I think that that's a good metric to kind of go into this comic with yeah I definitely will say that. As I was going through the Comic. It's like well I can understand where they're coming from for sure. Um I don't I can't get on board with their actions but like you know I can understand the place from which they are coming from when they're talking about the things that they do in this comic because basically the setup is that. Ah, the people who are in this terrorist organization all have had their lives ruined in some way shape reform by the media doing something like you know ruining their lives in some way shape or form via exposes and things like that and so. Um, these people are embittered. They have had their lives wrecked by this and they are out for blood. So um, they are being manipulated by this voice. It's just called the voice that is on cassette tapes that they play. 13:44.94 Jala and Dave But they never see the person behind the voice. They don't even question where this person is. It's just you know like that's their um, you know, hand me down and instructions or whatever. So um, it's really interesting. But yeah I feel like we need to go into so kind of the presentation of it overall too. Because the writing itself the writing style that Hickman has at least in here is very polemic and the characters are interchangeable more or less like you could swap in anybody for any of these characters like the characters have some development to them. But that's like the point is not the characters. The point is the overall satire that is being presented here by him in this narrative. So um. 14:32.72 Case Yeah I mean the story almost establishes that the majority of the characters have kind of like a profile that they all sort of fit and you can honestly swap them. However, like between the ones that we see like which role they have just yeah sort of their specialties but like ah which brings up the loser comparison. Again, But like there's this element of just like well yeah, anyone could could have been the main person versus like all the peripheral ones. 14:54.96 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah for sure and it's interesting because visually speaking. Um like I mentioned because of the kind of high graphic design advertising web development background that Hickman has the artwork has like these. Circles and lines just to break up the space. The visual space and there's ink splatters everywhere which the ink splatters were super like a thing anyway at that time but like um, you know, just some of the other elements that he consistently uses really um, makes this feel kind of. Separate from other things like the reason why I picked up this comic originally because I I was just reading around on comicsology and I'm like what the heck is this and I looked at a couple of pages and I was like huh I'm going to read that because it looks visually engaging to me and I'm like what is this I've never seen something like this before. The art is what drew me in in the first place is because it's just different markedly different than you know a bunch of other comics that were coming out at that time so Case I like a. 16:02.71 Case Yeah I mean like I'm impressed with this whole work generally speaking and like let's let's be honest, if this came out now instead of fifteen years ago this would be a web comic you know like the the way it's it's set up and the fact that it's like a 1 man effort on the whole thing like Hikman's credited as. Written by artist letter or colorist editor and like he goes into description in the like in the supplemental stuff at the end of it where he talks about his process and a lot of it is I mean he was complaining about like which version of Adobe Creative suites he was using at the time versus what's available now but like it like which I thought was extremely funny. Someone who dabbles with graphic design. Um. 16:39.16 Case But like this is the process that I would go through if I was like all right I have this idea for a story and I know how to like put a lot of it together. Um, and I don't necessarily have like either necessarily the artistic background or like the way the artistic background isn't necessarily comic book formatted. Um, so to to rely on like mastery of a different thing like if like he he talks about illustrator like I'm like I'm a photoshop person but I know how I would do that if I was if I was going to be like all right I'm going to take photo references of me and then like modify it all into being like these distinct sort of like caricatures that he's Using. Throughout the whole thing. Um, which I think is really impressive from ah ah from that perspective like ah if you know as ah as a soul person's creative work. Awesome! The flip side of that is a lot of people of the same face which which was a little bit difficult. Um and and thus makes the additional information. All all. 17:37.96 Case Constantly being given to help you sort of remember which character is yours. It's kind of like a video game with like the little like text icon over your character in a multiplayer thing. Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying. 17:45.81 Jala and Dave Um, well I mean they even have like title cards of who's who and a lot of the different scenes as well like they literally have a little name plate so you know who is who and um, that like the photo realism but it's also sketchy kind of style is something that you've also mentioned off Mike right? Dave. 18:03.83 Jala and Dave Yeah I thought it was a pretty interesting take and ah it it feels like the comic. Even though there's there's limited color palette. It feels like it's a black and white comic. Um, but it's using that limited color palette to kind of like draw the eye around the page a little more just because there's there's a lot of. 18:23.62 Jala and Dave It's really, it's kind of visual noise because it's patterns. Um and something that's interesting part of it that I that I did enjoy was that there are um like diagetic texts that's something in this in the scene. But those are all rendered into like little footnotes and the text itself is replaced by um, like diagonal lines so you don't actually see any text in the world. You just get it as a reader looking at the scene. 18:56.45 Jala and Dave Right? And part of that too is like the whole you can't trust the media thing. So. It's like you can't like they're they're giving you the information. So like that's super culty the way that's being presented like they're not letting you see it for yourself. They're telling you what you see and that's. Very cult like in presentation. So that was actually a very nice touch. But there are some parts where like his his um visual design background just really stands out like say for example. There is this 2 page spread where it's nothing but a whole bunch of lines that just make your eyes go nuts and then there's just like the dude in the corner and it's like he's supposed to be in a straight jacket in you know a padded room or something but like they put all of these lines. You know? Yeah Jonathan Hickman put all these lines there. 19:48.38 Jala and Dave Ah, that just gives you a visual tension that you can't even look at this you you have to focus on the little guy and then you got to like move on because like that and um. 19:53.95 Case Well, they're converging lines like their diagonal is like aimed at the 1 guy in the room. So like even it's to to be clear for those who have not read this book and haven't seen the page 1 full page is diagonal lines going from top left to bottom right? aiming at the person in the room. And the other page it three quarters of it is diagonal lines going from top right to bottom left aiming at the person that's like kind of towards the center but it's a lot. Ah. 20:19.51 Jala and Dave Mm Well, there's that there's little like a little ink spatter in there but then like just the the lines all the intensity of the lines and the fact that there's that much of those those just lines placed together like that. Really does actually put the tension into your eyeballs physically so you viscerally feel the tension that you might project onto this character who is in a padded room with a straightjacket on right? So I Really liked the way that he uses. The graphic design elements here because you know yes, he's leaning on it because he doesn't have the same type of artistic background like you notice throughout the book that there are a few places where he draws a building but there's not like scenes. He just puts like a building that tells you where they are and then it just shows characters and. 21:08.15 Jala and Dave Decorative stuff and you know like visual noise stuff and that's it text boxes and infographics and things like that. Yes, he's leaning on that but he's also using it to a good purpose with how he's drawing your eye around the page and how he's presenting the information to you and like. You know, part of the point and I think he even says it in some of the Graphics. He's like you know these statistics aren't real or something like that and you know it's again, it's like that cult presentation of well we could tell you anything and you're just going to go with it because it's statistics on a page you know and. 21:45.69 Jala and Dave And that's really like part of the satire element of the media in their presentation to you and of course the way that this cult works. So it's. 21:54.28 Case I Yeah I mean I found the statistic stuff and like all the different like factoids like kind of like maddening because there were so many that there were just enough ones that were right or like part of it was right that I was like wait hang on ah in a fun way I mean like talking about the lines sort of replacing the the. 22:11.86 Case Signage and stuff like that feels very much like when you're assembling a scene that is either for advertising purposes but like video purposes a lot of times like they'll have like either a green screen scenario or even in comic book writing they'll do like they'll do like hatched x's to indicate that the inker should fill it in with all black. Um, and that's all like here's the the foreground part of it and then to you know to be added later kind of stuff like pants to be darkened kind of thing in this scenario. Um, and here it's like well yeah, the the sign could be whatever because we're we're creating the reality for you in text and we're like and all these elements of it where it's. The artistic process like the process itself the actual artistry and then the the themes of the book like this whole like the cult is like creating like ah, a specific interpretation of it. But also the media is creating a particular interpretation of it like and these are all being like inserted elements. Um, but. The frame is all is there because that was set up in the first place which is well that's where you have the screen or that's where you have the sign and then we'll we'll just put it whichever one we decide is going to give you the information that we're telling you to have and you don't know if I'm talking about the media right now or the cults or the artist like all all of those work together in a really like. Symbiotic way which I find very fun. 23:28.44 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, it really to me? Um there's not a whole lot of comics that I've read that do this kind of thing where they're playing. They're using that design that they're working with in such a way that like it is. Presenting to you something that makes you pause and think about the information being presented to you like this like it reminds me kind of of the windows within windows that are in something like Watchmen where you've got the comic within the comic and you've got. You know, um, Dr Manhattan on Mars and he's narrating this thing that's happening in his mind like at the same time and the panels are interchanging and all this other mess and like the the format itself is being used to. Make you step back and think about it and and everything it is kind of the same kind of thing going on here I'm not saying that this is on par with a watchman but like it is a pretty ah standout and interesting first graphic novel for this guy to do did you have anything on that Dave now. Okay, so um, overall um I when I first read this I was really impressed with it just for the fact that this is this first comic that this guy's done and that it's doing all of these different things and yes, it's it's. 24:45.92 Jala and Dave Obviously not a perfect comic or anything like that. But it is very interesting makes you stop and think about a lot of different aspects. Um not just of the satire being presented to you. Um and all of that. But also just. How you can extrapolate that and you know apply it to the world around you as well. So um, from here I don't know do we have any other wrap up like general wrap up thoughts about this or do we need to just jump into the big story. 25:17.16 Case Um, I I mean I guess like if someone's going to cut off here because we're about to dig into spoilers I will say I think it is an enjoyable comic that is um, very artistically focused. So it's not so much that you're looking at the actual story so much as how the story works with everything um that it is very raw. Like it. It is clearly his first like comic but he's coming from a standpoint of being very experienced in a different medium and transferring the skills over. So I think that that works really well the way that we were saying like oh yeah, every page sort of sets the story and then we've got kind of the things that we need to pay attention to on here. It feels like infographics or a poster. And as a result every page has that like overall vibe of being very composed and very cool and I think that if you are looking for something that is weird and fun like and fun I should say from a cerebral standpoint as opposed to fun from a like gets your heart pumping kind of standpoint. 26:10.84 Case There are a couple of like American History X type moments in here where you're like yeah yeah, now we should kill some people and that's like because you just like there's good storytelling going on to like kind of get you on the side of these like murderers in this whole thing. Um, but overall I would say it's a cool work. It. It is clearly a work that. Um, you can see where he's going to go and like all the heights he'll achieve in his career from here. Um, and that it's not going to have all of the like the ironed out wrinkles that would be you know later stuff for him. But if you like take a minute. Definitely we're checking out and it's it's cool like every page is going to be at least visually interesting if nothing else. 26:48.50 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, and um, like the first time that I read this I was you know, interested in it and it's it's more of a mental exercise for me and like an appreciation of the art artistry of it. Um, more than it is like oh this is such a gripping story like it. Seems to me like just my own impression with it is that he had this cool idea of how he wanted to present a um criticism of the media and you know people in power and this that and the other and so he. Started designing and then inserted all everything else from there and the story like the exact narrative that goes on and all of that is really just kind of setdressing to this idea. It's more of a conceptual piece to me than it is like an actual developed. Storyline like a narrative that sticks with me because like I can tell you between the time I first read it and the time that I reread it for this all I remembered was the overall just I didn't remember characters I didn't remember the exact beats or anything like that I remembered the style and I remembered what it was like trying to get the the message it was trying to convey. More than anything else. 28:02.65 Case Yeah,, that's super fair collected I think is a better way to go on this one like looking back on it as individual issues I'd be like that. Obviously for the release purpose Totally fine. Ah good look and like even having chapters is good but like it is ultimately a short story that is is decommpressed by virtue of like all the things that are going on. Outside of the actual narrative elements. 28:21.90 Jala and Dave Right? right? Dave did you have any wrap ups on that only to say that I like had I read this when it was extant at the time I don't think I would have enjoyed it as individual releases. It's better as a trade. Yes I definitely agree with you there. I think we're all in agreeance on that point so cool. So ah, from here we will erect our spoiler wall Spoiler Wall is being erected. Nobody can see it but I'm actually like making little little movements with my hands. Okay, it is fully erected woo. 28:54.62 Case Yeah I've put the last spoiler brick in the spoiler mortar is settling all the spoiler wall like. 28:59.50 Jala and Dave Yes, it is now settled now we are going to spoil the shit out of this comic and I'm going to let Dave tell us the storyline we can kind of chill. You don't have to read it. Word. For word, he just paraphrase paraphrase just I'll read the first bit and then see what I can do. It's it's pretty dense. Um sure oh sure. Okay, all right? Well I'll read this first bit at an anti-globalization rally in New York City a sniper called John Geitn who calls himself the hand of the voice shoots a protester causing panic. 29:19.83 Case We could take check turns and all do a different voice bump bump. Um. 29:35.48 Jala and Dave However, his true target is soon revealed when he along with a couple of allies proceeds to gun down multiple reporters and camera crews who arrived to cover the story. All 3 along with their fellow brothers and sisters. Are members of a revolutionary cult made up of individuals whose lives were destroyed when they were the targets of sensationalistic irresponsible and or fraudulent media coverage and are determined to destroy the mainstream media under the guidance of the voice with their the voice their masonic leader who communicates to them. Only by cassette tape who I guess we can kind of stop at the after the first little chunk of each of these if we have anything to add on there. Um I I definitely when I first read the first section the first chapter or two I was like. Ok, you know I can ok like they're pointing out John Geiton is taking his time to tell the reader slash everybody about you know What's so bad about the media and things like that I'm like ok I can get on board with what he's saying here I don't know about this shooting people thing. You know like I I can get on board with that. You know right? at the beginning at least. 30:43.50 Case Yeah, there's certainly like a like yeah no, we are being manipulated. That's that's not cool and this is fifteen years ago which is when we were you know I mean this is not too long after like the Tucker Carlson embarrassment story which with um Jon Stewart and like also just coming off of like you know the Iraq war. 31:03.43 Case And like how much stuff did feel like we're being just completely fed a line. Um, and now you look at today and you're like oh yeah, no man the media is like this weird terrifying machine that doesn't even know what it's doing anymore. But at the same time is making everything bad. 31:16.23 Jala and Dave Right? right? Well and the the thing about this too is that like these guys are determined to destroy the media like mass media. The information like the the place from which everybody's getting their information. It's like It's just going to get replaced by something else. That's just going to do is it's kind of like you know, a lot of times 1 government gets overthrown and then you have a dictator come in and then that person is is taking over. It's like ah ah ah I don't know I don't know that this is actually going to be. Doing what you think it's going to be doing you know like. 31:55.79 Case Yeah I mean they kind of set up like later on theres There's an element of like well there is some kind of change that occurs and there's there's a really good line later in the book that isn't spoiler is just someone defending the media and saying that um, that. 32:11.69 Case The existence of of the media is going to be but the format is is going to change and that has to fight for to deserve to exist. Um I'm paraphrasing right now but like I thought that was a really cool way of like viewing it which is that like the institution of like here's these big media Empires that are like the main form of distribution. Like they have to be able to compete and continue to draw attention Now. There are problems with that and it highlights very real problems with that in this book. Um, but you can see how like with the rise of social media with ah with the rise of all these different ways of getting information that it has sort of. 32:48.73 Case Change the game like and and part of that is for the worse now with like um, you know more sensational news which they call out and hear but like it just keeps it's you know this arms race. Um, and that if it was dismantled the way it was. It would reconfigure it like something would replace it but it wouldn't necessarily be the same configuration and so I don't know like there certainly certainly., There's the perspective of like well everything's broken. Let let's just start Over. Um but is that Void actually going to start over or is that going to allow for like. 33:21.34 Case Bad actors to like assume even more control. 33:21.68 Jala and Dave Right? And see that that was that second one there is what I was thinking when I first was you know like okay yes, valid points about a lot of this but also mm. I I Just I see that as being an opportunity for something worse to come and we will get. We will get there. Yeah and something ah else that the because of when this was written. It was less of a thing. 33:53.00 Jala and Dave The book hasn't some infographics that that do mention that a lot of these news outlets have um, their headquarters in New York city or they are parts of conglomerate where 1 entity owns like a bunch of arms and so that. That's ah, that's a thing there are specific industry or not industries in the media where one like head of a company will own like 5 or 6 different news stations or ah or papers and. That means that everything that they're printing is coming down like the editorials and everything is sort of passed through a specific ah bias like someone's controlling the general gist of multiple companies. So even if you ah think you're getting a broader um point of view on something if you're looking at. 2 or 3 different out media outlets. But they're all owned by the same company then didn't know you're you're going to only be getting a specific read. But what became more relevant over time is that these large companies bought up. And destroyed pretty much nationwide any like small press private presses local news stations. They're gone and so now you're only getting like top-down media coverage and that's 1 thing that did change. Um. 35:24.36 Jala and Dave And something that the the book doesn't like specifically address but is more relevant now than in 2007 also the format of the book I don't think we mentioned it but it is non nonlinear and it jumps back and forth. Ah. Through a few years of time and several months and it keeps doing that. So. It's a little disorienting to have to go okay wait this is two weeks later wait now it's back 2 years and okay, we're back in the present so that can be a little frustrating to some sub readers I think. 35:57.67 Case Yeah, there is a color palette that they use to try to like convey. This is a flashback when it's got a like blue tones to it versus just like more like earthstones. Um which like Hickman talks about but at the same time like the difference between two weeks ago and. Two days ago which like there are those kind of like time jumps in there. It's very difficult to like keep track of those versus like the bigger time jumps you're like okay well that's a while ago I I got that one. But yeah your your brain breaks especially because the faces are all very similar. 36:26.41 Jala and Dave Yeah I was going to say it what makes it more complicated is the fact that it's hard to pass who is who most of the time and so it's like you know that John Geitin has the spiky hair. You know that one but like everybody else god save you your neck. Yeah I know yeah. 36:41.28 Case He's not even the only guy with spiky hair though. He just also has the shitty beard. 36:46.31 Jala and Dave So it's like that that guy with those you know and you just have to like pick a couple of features to focus on to even figure out who is who and like maybe you know even to write yourself a little note so you can figure it out because otherwise you you may lose where you are and who you are and you know who you're with rather in these pages. So. 37:00.90 Case Yeah. 37:06.30 Jala and Dave But yeah, like the corporatization of everything is is just you know been more and more of a problem as time has gone on like my say. For example, my day job my day job was a mom and pop operation and it had like 3 offices and that's it and then. We were bought out by a national company. You know, um before pandemic started and then during pandemic we got bought out by an international company. So um, you know there's and then some of the different people that we work with in smaller agencies and things. Um. They are getting bought out by larger corporations and it's just like more and more of them. They might have their individual branch that still has their name played on it but like it is now blah an x company. You know, rather than just being you know an independent operation. So that's definitely been like more and more and that's just in in my particular field that's not even you know everything. 38:11.22 Case Yeah I mean I was getting constant reminders because the app kept crashing when I was reading this. Ah so I was reading this on comicsology and I kept on being reminded that it's an Amazon company and also popup notice remember in a few days. The app is no longer going to work. It's all could be merged into Kindle because it's you know 1 company now. 38:25.90 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, absolutely and something else I wanted to mention too since Dave had mentioned the different news sources and their biases. 38:39.41 Jala and Dave Is that there is a video game I played a while ago that I originally wanted to do like an episode where we talk about the nightly news this comic as well as this video game but like that's a bit too much right now to tackle on 1 episode. So um, but the video game in question is called headliner nova news and in that game. You are a journalist and you get to pick how you want to like what new stories you approve and which ones you send back for editing and which ones you deny and you've got demands from your boss you get to see out in the world. What's going on as you pick one or another article to publish how that influences the social sphere and how that changes policy and how you know like it has this power to do a lot of different things and you know you end up shaping throughout this this 2 hour long game cycle just like. What happens with the nation and as it goes through and it has this very simplified kind of way of of presenting it right? but like it's it's you're shaping public opinion and then the public is swayed in this direction and then. You know these are the results of this thing that you did and you might think that it's going to have a good result but there's actually some negative sides and it's a lot trickier than you think and um, it's a really cool video game and I would recommend recommend people who are interested in this topic. 40:02.17 Jala and Dave To check it out again. That's headliner Nova News I will try to put a link in the show notes. So yeah, moving along with the story though. So as more attacks on journalists occur including the bombing of a bar frequented frequented by reporter frequented god frequented by reporters. High-ranking media moggols begin to pressure senator Jay Rector chairman of the senate Fcc oversight committee for increased protections for journalists. Their true motives. However are more cynical. They want to protect their organization's profits and abilities to continue with their reckless. Profit driven approaches to journalism in the face of a new threat and possible public discontent meanwhile disgraced journalist James Andrews is approached by Guytin and recruited into the cult and is gradually indoctrinated. Cant why can't I speak indoctrinated. Into their methods and motives until faced with his ultimate recruitment test murdering fellow journalist Werner Rogers the New York Times reporter who broke the story of the journalistic fraud that ruined Andrew's life 41:22.00 Case I mean so that there was this was an issue that had more like tangible elements to to it all the the like reporter bar kind of vibe ah was like oh yeah, no I've I've I have never been a reporter but I've worked in industries where like yeah, we just all gather at a certain place. Ah in New York and so like. Yeah, that that that checks out like that. It all felt very real in that regard and it made sense as a a way for characters to interact with one another and sort of set up the the social component that is underlying what is ultimately this weird twisted murder cult story. 41:57.87 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, absolutely I don't want to read again because I'm going to get my tongue all tied up Case your turn. 42:01.24 Case I can do next right? Andrews shoots Rogers. But soon after overpowers geittin and brings him to a cult deprogrammer. It is revealed that Andrews and Rogers had been working together after Andrew's learning of the cult's existence had decided to go undercover to expose them. In response to the attacks Senator Rector has drafted legislation called the freedom of media act. But in addition to increased protections for journalists informs the media moguls that they must accept either increased government oversight or weaker protections against liability for the stories. They publish the moguls viewing it as a safer public friendly option with little teeth. Choose the latter option. 42:40.47 Jala and Dave Right? So um, it's fun because freedom of Media Act. It's that sounds like it's seriously a thing that is you know, existing in our world at this time and you know, um, the kind of 2 sided nature of that. Smacks of actual life legislation type things um that what did you all think about the Cult Programmer portion of this that I thought it was kind of interesting to see. 43:12.23 Case Honestly I kind of blinked and missed it and all of a sudden he was deprogrammed. It seemed um and and that one it kind of bugged me because like oh I guess they were being druged probably I guess like these things are happening but then like they. There's this element of like oh but there's Alpha waves from media like the and like maybe they're just trying to say the media is also a cold kind of thing and at a moment I was like wait have we veered into sci-fi a little bit. 43:36.90 Jala and Dave Yeah that's um I didn't really get that read on it. So the deprogramming did go by really fast. It's I think it said he was in there for two weeks or less ah just a few days really and all of a sudden he was um, he's not. Cure. He's just aware of what the situation was. He's like he's he's back in his own control I guess his eyes have been opened. Um, he's he he took the whatever the but the blue pill the red one who knows um and. That part was a little strange because it felt like so there being the the cult members. Ah I don't think they were being drugged I think that they they honestly they had these massive um issues and insecurities and they were just being preyed on. Ah, those weaknesses were being. 44:32.76 Case Oh sorry I Also don't mean to say that they were being drugged as like a consistent thing but probably in like at times while like being like indoctrinated. Um, yeah. 44:39.92 Jala and Dave Yeah, they could have been I mean that would have made them more so susceptible to it. Um I had just ah last year I think finished reading a um ah book on the Alm Shinikyo cult in Japan and that that particular book was. Conducted with interviews of cult members and um, the public. So it. This felt very like realistic like research was put into this these this felt like something that could have happened um and we've of course had um, ah was it the Jonestown there's been um. Little cult things Waco stuff. That's that's happened in in the recent past that are reminiscent of what kind of is going on in this? Um, but what the book doesn't do is give any like public point of view like we get only the media. 45:34.24 Jala and Dave Politicians and then the cult members. We're not getting. We're only getting like the the active players in this and none of the fallout so you don't really ever see any public perception. So really along with everybody involved in this. The reader themselves is being like manipulated to specific point of views. So it's. 45:52.70 Jala and Dave Ah, it's like a Case of I don't know a triple unreliable narrator. Yeah yeah, and that's kind of what I was trying to touch on earlier when I was saying that like the way that it's presented to you is such that you don't get to see it with your own eyes. You only get the information you know that the. Person writing this book Jonathan Hickman ah is giving you so like you don't get to read the sign yourself, you get to be told what is on that sign. You don't you know you get to be told all these infographics which may or may not be real some of which might be real enough to convince you that you you know should just trust it and you know that's. That trust or lack thereof and all of that is kind of um you know part and parcel of the whole indoctrination and you know being in a cult thing. Ah but definitely ah I feel like there was more consideration for the ways in which they're trying to convey to you that these people are in a cult like. The the voice does not allow. Its people to do x y and z and that is very well outlined throughout the whole thing. But then it's like oh sometime we have to have this guy deprogrammed I have no idea how that happens so we're just going to like skip over that part and move on because that's not really, it's it's. 47:07.14 Case Really good to program her real fast. Yeah. 47:11.73 Jala and Dave Yeah, it's like it doesn't actually you know, um that part is not and again it's that's because the characters don't matter so like you know all you need to know is that it happened and then we're moving on and you know like that the character is not the point. The narrative is the point. 47:28.38 Jala and Dave Like the narrative insofar as like the message being conveyed and so like the only way to get there is through this cult programmer but we don't want to spend time with that cult Programmer So we're just going to put them over there make it a page and move on. So yeah, yeah. 47:41.68 Case Yeah I mean it at all makes sense from ah from a story standpoint you move past it. But I think this kind of just goes to the first comparisons I made were to slightly futuristic semi-dystopian kind of futures because this is also kind of an exploration of like. Well capitalism sucks right? and everything like there's a whole like all these like systems in place that are kind of terrible and that usually you extrapolate that slightly into the future and in this Case, it's kind of adjacent because like we're obviously not dealing with the real world once like the shots start firing but it's like you know, 5 seconds in the future kind of there. 48:17.94 Case And so elements of like well how well can you like you know, can you indoctrinate and program a person or deprogram a person that that's where it just starts feeling like it's a thing that's really common in sci-fi So That's like where my brain kind of went on that one even though there's nothing like even though it's not fleshed out enough to be anyway like that like it's just like. Oh well, maybe it's just like I I'm used to this kind of story being in like well things are bad ah and a little bit more than they already are kind of story. 48:45.16 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, um I have I have something a dad too. Ah so ah, it actually makes me think of bedlam which is another comic that I was considering having it. It was ah bedlam was a 2 trade in never finished. Comic where it's a serial killer mass murderer who is then deprogramed but like that is violent. It takes years. It takes a lot of like there. They do a lobotomy. They do all these other things they um, keep in prison this that and the other so like um, you know like that is a much more visceral and much more. Um, jarring. Kind of deprogramming happening to get him to be reformed and that is not presented in like its own. You know, well state either and that comic also trades in the whole like you know at least for part of it. It trades in. Politicians and media and how those things you know are doing bad things to the public. So um, that was another one that was related and I'm like I just really like this type of story I think because there's nightly news. There's bedlam. Those are the ones I'm thinking about um. Okay, but some yeah definitely if you like this kind of a story also check out bedlam even though it was unfinished. It was neat so I was going to say kind of going into this I didn't have as like a specific set of expectations I like read the back blurb. Um, and then it's like look I'm reading the story and. 50:15.39 Jala and Dave It it gets to the part where the deprogrammer shows it just it's it's very instantaneous and it's due to a murder um happening and the the 2 culprits are like they're not. They don't go to the police. They just get taken to a friend of a friend who happens to be a deprogrammer and solved that way and then like oh yeah, you're on your own cognizance about turning yourself in for all these crimes you've done like patient privilege but the way that that. 1 or 2 pages goes. It felt like that was going to be an arc and I think that that's part of the ah weaknesses um of Jonathan Hickman is that the storytelling it's I feel. It's pretty solid but it's made up of pieces that I think. Individually could have been longer and I don't know if they were cut for time or just I needed this puzzle piece to happen and this is the way I kind of envisioned it. But I don't have time to sit there and draw like the other 10 pages of him at this. Ah, psychiatrist. 51:31.11 Case I think that's fair with with Hickman I think a complaint that you see with a lot of things the one that I certainly felt with his avengers run is um, having like clear perspectives of like moments and having like some of those like really fit together really well. But then sometimes like. I think viewed from macro for gettingting that some people need the connective tissue in between them sometimes um like the avengers 1 specifically had lots of times where like all of a sudden new status quo would shift in and sometimes that's from outside books. Ah, but it was just like here here's like a really cool scene and then like here's a here's the scene that happens a day later and there's probably should have been a scene in between like somewhere in there kind of stuff and like xmen like you see some of that criticism but it's like a way bigger team that he was working with so it's you know like it's the Hickman Era but he wasn't the sole writer for anything. Um, so it's a little bit different but i. 52:07.88 Jala and Dave Yeah. 52:23.39 Case And some of it was like deliberately played with where we find out stuff later on. But I think that is just consistent with like Hickman sort of seeing the story from a macro and from having like all of the details sort of laid out in his weird circular grid kind of things that he does. Um, you're already seeing all the like the pieces and how they like connect to each other. Um, but not necessarily realizing that like sometimes you have to do a little bit more fleshing out for audience members who aren't seeing the big picture the way you are when you're writing it. 52:52.27 Jala and Dave Right? right? There's definitely that kind of an element to it. Um, and again like that's that's also um, kind of circles back to just like the flashbacks are hard to parse sometimes and this that and the other it's like yeah, it's all kind of part of that. Um. Like he's seeing it from that zoomed out perspective. But then when you're in the moment reading it page by page you kind of get lost at times. So yeah, but um, another thing I wanted to say too is that Um, when the media. Was given the option of you can either have more government control or you can be like open to you know public critique or whatever you've got more liability when it comes to the public and like they choose to have more liability with the public. Rather than the government control and that's just like you know they're they're picking what works best for them. A more powerful entity than the public right? So like they're they're trying to like they don't want the control of the higher up power. They want to you know, like open themselves up and and. 54:01.19 Jala and Dave That actually gets flipped on its head later but like it seems like oh that would be the sensible option for them at the time you know, just from a power structure perspective. But then you know again later at the very end of the book. We see how that actually plays out. 54:15.22 Case Yeah I thought it was interesting that they present that debate I kind of like the fact that it is flipped on its head at the end I I think is almost unrealistic like because we've we've seen how the world sort of works and how. 54:27.74 Jala and Dave We will definitely be ah critiquing that when we get to that to the end. But. 54:34.80 Case Yeah I think it's a worthwhile conversation because I think that this is exactly how larger corporations think which is that they would rather be more prone to litigation because like they they can afford to have giant armies lawyers that protect them and you know they can sort of control. The. Like how stories work by just by virtue of having so many lawyers and outspending people. Um, the thought that it could be that disruptive I think that that just speaks to ah the the idea that media is probably a little bit more on the verge of like a big revolution in terms of like distribution methods and like. How it could all work so like it could play out that way it just it didn't seem like it was going to play out that way. It doesn't make sense to me that it would play out that way. But if it's only 1 one of multiple factors I'm like okay I guess it could be and at least it was like worthwhile to be like yeah no, they but both options are like abhorrent to any of these like Ceos. Um. 55:30.59 Case But the idea of like the government is like well they're they're not going away. 55:32.30 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, so let us move on Dave all right? So since we talked about the brainwashing after being freed from his brainwashing geitin is overcome with remorse at his actions and agrees to go with Andrews to the police and confess what he has done. Before he can. However, he is intercepted by a limo owned by the voice leaving Andrews to face the police by himself when Andrews links to the cult are uncovered by the police. They accuse him of being the ringleader of the cult as rogers is dead and there is no other evidence that Andrews was undercover Andrews realizes that the cult has set him up as the fall guy. Geittin speaks to the voice via speakerphon who urges him follow through with their plan when geitn resists the voice gives in the address of Elias Lee the reporter who broke the story that ruined geitn's life geitten confronts Lee who eventually admits that his main motivation for writing the story and destroying geitn was for power profit and because he could. Geiten kills Lee and decides to complete the voices plan. Yeah so he's been deprogrammed and now he is willingly choosing to go back in more or less although like to be fair I was because of how fast. The brain you know d d brainwashing was I was like he can't actually be you know quote unquote cured or whatever from being in this cult after 2 seconds of of skipped over time I just I don't see it. You know. 56:58.10 Case Yeah, that that's the part that I like kind of made it feel like Sci fi ish where it was just like oh he like it's a switch that was flipped and then oh we switched like we flipped the switch again with the right like code word. 57:07.95 Jala and Dave Yeah, he's He's the the voice candidate right? right? So I did like the fact that they ended up making like the undercover reporter guy into the fall guy who'd like oh yeah, you're the voice because whatever like. 57:11.66 Case Yeah. 57:25.20 Jala and Dave That um was a ah good kind of twist and it also like um, still works within the CColts ideology of the media being bad and even though this guy is you know now a ah defamed in you know, whatever Reporter. He's still a reporter and they hate him and they're going to you know pin in on him if they're going to do it on anybody because they don't want reporters around. They're going to. 57:51.73 Case Yeah, they I mean they have plenty of of suicide bombers in the scenario. Um, and so like what's 1 more martyr for their cause. Um, it's interesting because I recently rewatched the movie the thin blue line for a different podcast and it ah it's. 58:07.73 Case Interesting to remember Ah how real the scenario of the police just want someone dependent on is and how like they'll take any sort of like limited scraps of evidence to sort of like be able to close the Case as much as they can um and then blame it on like copycats if they have to but but at least at least like yeah we did a good Job. We caught the leader Of. We caught the Voice. We caught the leader of this cult. Um, there might be splinter cells that they come off but like we did our job because we're the cops and you can kind of rely on them to act that Way. Sometimes. 58:40.55 Jala and Dave Right? right? So um, yeah I don't really have anything else to add on there I actually do not remember what it was in the story that that was ah reported on by this Elias Lee I don't remember what the story was that. 58:54.11 Case I Don't think they show it I I was looking for that because they they talk about how his life was destroyed by everything and I I think getting back to like these are just sort of insert characters here that that's just a Mcguffin that doesn't matter. 59:08.80 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, probably so because like I don't recall it. Dave do you have any idea. No. Okay so yeah, so moving right? along though a series of coordinated attacks on the media occur killing all of the media moguls and several well-known journalists. senator rector holding an interview with 1 of them narrowly escapes death during the attacks most of the members of the cult are killed including Guytin no longer brainwashed Guytin admits to himself before his death that he is no longer certain of the rightness of his act or righteousness of his actions. But feels that he has at least done something to protect innocent people from experiencing what he did at the hands of the media. 59:55.99 Case Yeah, ah so it's it's very clear that all these people are like I mean there there they're suicidal martyrs like that's kind of their deal except for the 1 person who's like the legit killer that like the the saber tooth looking dude and like the. 01:00:09.28 Jala and Dave Yeah. 01:00:10.54 Case The cowboy hat who's just like yeah I wasn't going to kill myself like here's here's a recorded message of me saying like fuck you all. 01:00:16.10 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah, that guy. Ah definitely like they I'm glad that hickman at least had the presence of mind to put one character like that in there to just like break it up a little bit break up the monotony just slightly you know and have somebody else in there with their ulterior motives and things. But um I I definitely was sitting there with it like what do you mean you don't know if you're if your actions were righteous like that's the whole point of of you being in the cult and then now you now you're having doubts at the last moment after you. Done? whatever but he thinks that he's done a good thing. Um I don't know I don't know what did you feel about this dave. Yeah, kind of on the same page. So this um, what we I don't yeah wasn't in the little synopsis Andrews. Ah. The the reporter that um geitin he gets Geittin as the hand was recruiting more cult members and Andrews is the one that he picked to recruit because um, Andrews. Ah, surely had a beef with his company because he was thrown under the bus by his like buddy. So the final test for Andrews and the one that got um them both sent to the police basically was that geitn um, kidnapped the reporter that was um. 01:01:44.80 Jala and Dave Ah, Andrews his buddy and tells Andrews if you want to you know, join our cult then you need to kill your friend I mean he's who set you up so that's going to be your revenge or I'll just kill both of you like there's no way out of this really for you and so Andrews. 01:02:03.47 Jala and Dave Begrudgingly shoots his friend in the head. Um, and then we get a fun flashback because everything has to be out of order and and this one did work because you you need to like buy into Andrews being recruited. Um. It's the it's what happened is Andrews and his buddy ah made up the story that got Andrews like disgraced and for for um, basically future reporting things that they they. Wanted him to be recruited by the cult so he could exposed what was going on inside of the cult. But this all backfired because then they both he had to end up killing his friend. Um, but that just that foresight and the planning that they're putting into it and they're doing their manipulation and it just like. Comes back to bite them in the ass ah is interesting because that doesn't happen to too many of the other characters. Yeah, that was covered earlier in the synopsis. But um, you it didn't have that much of um, like an in-depth read of it. So like it did mention um. You know that he was recruited by having to kill this other journalist or whatever but like they didn't actually talk about the um plan and all of that. So yeah, um, it reads like that that particular part reads in line with the way that Hickman's tone is for the entire piece. So. 01:03:34.76 Jala and Dave Um, kind of like Okay, yeah, that's some crap but like also it's it's kind of without being expected. It's kind of expected like tonally wise at least. 01:03:44.82 Case Yeah I mean like looking at this like it certainly feels like someone who's a fan of the departed. It certainly feels like someone who is a fan of like I said like all these comics of the era but like it you know there's just like. It feels so 2007 in in all and like so many ways where you don't really think about it until you like put that phrase like oh yeah, this is the year came out and you're like oh all the details like come into crystal clear focus. 01:04:15.18 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, it's definitely from its era. Yeah as I say they it's a they loved the departed and boondock saints. Yes, Evergreen the Boondock Saints. 01:04:32.16 Case I Love the the line of just do something like something has to be done like that. It's repeated a couple of times in there with this idea of like even if you're just treading water like even if you don't know what the right thing to do is doing something which. 01:04:49.45 Case Is a problem like in a lot of these Cases. It's it's manipulated. It's the it's the the it's the logic that gets to these radicalized groups like and I think that that's interesting to really focus on because when we talk about I mean when we talk about like elections. For example where it's just like. 01:05:06.99 Case Yeah, they went for the candidate who promised some kind of change because things aren't good right now and that appeals regardless of what the change is if it's for good or worse at least it feels like something and like that is a very real desire like again like this. 01:05:24.17 Case This movie or this movie This comic has an element of making things things that are abhorrent sound like rational responses to the world because the world sucks. 01:05:33.63 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, and in that way it actually it macks a lot of you I mean you already mentioned it like trumpism and stuff like that they wanted they want change. They want change because things suck they they are just for change. Whatever that means you know and then radicalized and you know, whatever and. 01:05:48.14 Case Right. 01:05:53.15 Jala and Dave Trumpism is its own kind of cult if you want to ask me that question but you know so you know it's that it's that kind of tone to it for sure and that's why um when I went back and I read this like wow this is really resonant even today more so today maybe. 01:06:12.87 Jala and Dave So um, Case do you want to finish up our summary. 01:06:14.40 Case How did the last part. Yeah following the attacks the freedom of media act is passed by the us congress. However, the weakened liability protections have proved to be more damaging against the media than expected as thousands have launched lawsuits against media organizations for unfair and unethical reporting. James Andrews has been convicted of being the voice despite his presentation or protestations of innocence after his conviction senator Rector visits andrews in prison and reveals that he is the voice and sets Andrew up earth and set andrews up because he knew all along that Andrews was a reporter ah Rector explained an epiphany after ah. Ah, bout of late life depression and decided to spend his remaining years destroying the institutions he thought were corrupting America using weak and easily manipulated victims of the media as his tools leaving andrews in prison rector meets with his surviving members of his cult to plan a campaign against his next Target lawyers. 01:07:12.42 Jala and Dave Yeah, and um, again like some of these beats also are seen in Bedlam as well. So like it's very fun to go and read that too. Um, just like paired up with this. It's It's a pretty good reading. Although like that one's a lot faster of a read than this is. 01:07:27.41 Case Yeah, you know what's embarrassing is at the end of the book. There is a fuck yeah moment when it's like yeah we're going after lawyers Next it's like oh yeah, it's good. Good God Damn it like they're monsters. 01:07:35.54 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, you know, right? right? right? So and I mean like um, didn't so during the in the book they ended up killing off a bunch of the media moguls and things like that. But the problem is that doesn't actually stop the corporatization of the media. So you know like somebody else is just going to replace that mogul so like how much has actually been solved by all of this is kind of the question because like the book doesn't answer that question. It just says these people did this thing they did a violence they were you know. Doing this because they felt that they were right and they needed to destroy these institutions because of whatever but you know the the hickman is very careful not to actually you know ah have an actual twenty years later what happened yeah he doesn't put forth like that was. The ah the solution. It's like this happened it had repercussions and moving on versus. Oh now the media is destroyed and you know it doesn't do that? Um, but it's it's it's a little more. 01:08:48.60 Jala and Dave Can't say it's real sort of more realistic because it's showing that ah the the biggest thing they face is was oh now they're weaker to litigation and it's hurting them in their pocket which is like probably the place you should have heard them at in the first place. 01:09:02.38 Case Yeah I mean I Guess the argument could be made that the the the ah approaching the actual heads of these media conglomerates and asking for their choice in terms of how they want to like a. You know proceed with like this law since it's you know reveal. That's all rector behind the scenes he sets up a scenario where they have an easy to protect themselves like they can easily insulate themselves from Legal responsibility by as I point out higher. You know, adding more money to their their legal teams and restarting their fact checking programs which. You know the very cynical book. Um, um, but then they kill those moguls so it is entirely possible that then the terms of this just sort of hit the companies and they were supposed to have 4 knowledge of what the circumstances were and all the people Involved. No longer are participating in that and thus they're more susceptible to lawsuits because they should have put the money into it but they didn't actually invest the money into it yet to like buff up their legal teams and then they get hit by all these lawsuits and then and you know. Like we point out this is 2007. It's right on the cusp of like a massive change in the weedy The the way that media distribution works So like in the real world at least they were additionally susceptible to like changes in the marketplace so you could argue that it works but it is weird because. 01:10:24.92 Case Corporations have a lot of money and they spend a lot of money on lawyers and like a lot of ways that they can are able to keep going is because they do that and so it just seems weird like like who's suing them enough where it's making that big of a difference. 01:10:37.40 Jala and Dave The only thing I could think is that hickman as fond of of bouncing back and forth in time as he is He must have gone forward in time himself to 2008 when the financial crisis hit and then he's like okay, so if if I write the story. Such that they um the mass Media Moguls and everyone has like their their pocketbooks books dinged and they're not in a financially stable position or I know that the crash is coming and then they'll all be destabilized and then there will be no more media. 01:11:12.69 Jala and Dave Yes, he's actually got the time you whi me device and has has jumped forward and and knew that ah but um I mean I guess in a way it is still like the same fight is still being carried out because the next target. Is lawyers which are the ones who are protecting the media companies in the first place. So if they take out the lawyers then there's nobody to protect the media and then the media will be. You know? ah eventually eaten by the public I guess is is kind of the you know implication at least of what was going to happen there. 01:11:48.60 Case Yeah, although like the the lawyers bit and maybe I'm losing track in terms of the timeline here because at the last scene. It's both blue and Beige and so his whole goddamn color scheme no longer even works. Um, but um, it. The last page is the part where he says he's going after Lawyers. So It is interesting because at least at the moment it looks like everything was going through and like lawyer like the presence you know, whatever he was going to do to lawyers wouldn't necessarily stop suing because you need lawyers on both sides. So I don't know necessarily how that all plays out or if it really. I don't I don't know um and like it's It's a funny line saying they're going after lawyers next like everyone hates lawyers just like as an instinctive kind of response even though when you actually stop to think about it. You're like oh but actually like there are a lot of really like important lawyers and like there. 01:12:42.63 Case Like there's a lot of things that you need good lawyers for we honestly probably need more good lawyers in certain fields. But as as is like with doctors. For example, the the way that the machine of our modern society has existed is that it it itself selects for a lot of the worst. 01:12:59.68 Case But I will say that I think Lawyers Jets just generally have a really bad reputation more so than necessarily deserved. 01:13:00.77 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure and you know the thing is is that like hickman in his I don't know if it was the foreword the afterword the whatever somewhere in the book Hickman talks about it and it's like. I was presenting this I am not presenting that this is good or this is bad or so you know like that one side or another side or whatever or that the concept of what's even going? Yeah yeah, well and the thing is is that like you know he's he's but. 01:13:28.48 Case There's like a footnote like every other page being like this like there's a lot of violence in this book and I don't necessarily approve. 01:13:36.50 Jala and Dave Yeah, he's like I don't even know that this is you know like this this story itself like what I'm having happened here I don't even know that that's necessarily a thing that you know, um I'm not trying to point to this and say this is again. This is not. You know me pointing to it and saying this is a solution to the problem. This is me saying you know like here's. An instance of a thing that occurred and he's basically reporting in about it. Yeah no I concur. Yeah yeah, so um, that's like the summary of what happens in the books but I do have a few um discussions. Questions for us to kind of talk about so ah first one of these is what is the relevance of this work in the time that it was published other than being a 2007 ask book Case. You can't say that. 01:14:24.71 Case Ah, no I think that it's ah I think that it has remained relevant because there's a lot of similar kind of ah political undertones. Um that that the zeitgeist is just kind of dealing with. Um, like if this is 2007 when this was coming out. It's right before like the Obama election where there's a lot of vibe of just like well we need change. We need hope you know like ah like a lot of there was a lot of swinging in that direction of like well how can we move away from the status quo of having yet another Bush? um and likewise eight years after that there was. The same kind of sentiments are happening because you know not that much actually changed. Um and then all of a sudden. It's like all right? Well what? What about if we swing the other direction but with the same kind of message. It's just you know a different perspective on it because it's still just a lot that's still part of this like bullshit machine. Um, and. 01:15:15.59 Case That also happened then you know eight years later and you know I don't think any of us are really satisfied I think the last fifteen years have been a lot of similar stories. Ah that have not ended well and things continue to get kind of worse in a lot of ways and so. Or in a lot of the same ways even though like things have been destabilized and like rebuilt a couple of times like like talking about specifically media. So this is before the huge like this is post web 1.0 but it is like in the in the rise of web 2.0 so social media as an outlet hasn't really like. 01:15:49.61 Case Risen yet people are still going to websites. We haven't seen social media wipe out a lot of the formats that people were using to to monetize the web in its in its phase here. Um, which was a way that it was pivoting to respond to the changes in technology and the pressures that that was putting on traditional media. Um. 24 hour news cycle existed but it existed in the specific way where a lot of people are watching Tv um, so you look at now and the the changes that are going on in the in the world that are that were pressures on on this at this time are even worse. Now you know like they you know they have the. Chart of all the different companies and like there's Disney and they've got Abc in Espn and like in the real world Disney is trying to sell off Espn because even though it is the most profitable division. It is not forecast to be the most profitable division in 15 years um and so it's it's that kind of like long game kind of like discussion that's going on in in terms of like well does any of this make sense like and and yeah, like fifteen years ago we could see it. We could see it was coming the iphone was out you know like we could. We could tell that. 01:16:59.21 Case And I'm using the iphone as like an example obviously there was like smartphones before but that was the mass market smartphone that all of a sudden Youtube was in your pocket like that changes the way that we could consume media from what was at all possible 10 years before that like I think that the that the last fifteen years have just been the realization of all the stuff that was like. Very clearly being put out there at the time and then a financial collapse 2 2 of them. 01:17:21.18 Jala and Dave Um, and yeah, well and then two um the rise of social media while it has ah changed up how media you know, presents itself to the world and gets out to its readers or are absorbing. Audience or whatever. Um, at the same time. Social media has also allowed for people to go viral who are showing the things that are wrong with the major media sources and so like we have seen. 01:17:49.39 Case Yeah. 01:17:53.13 Jala and Dave A greater rise of independent like not reporters per se just people who are just like no and then like you know once a video goes viral then you know a cover up. Can't happen about something like say George Floyd for example you know that can't be covered up because somebody was recording a video and that went viral as hell and then you've got marches. You've got this, you've got that and people are you know, ah mobilizing around that because that can't that is there's no way for them to undo that damage. Once it's done. You know insofar as like the media's view. 01:18:19.97 Case But but the thing is like that kind of like viral media which is is great like yeah I mean like going back to Rodney King like the the you know I mean you help fucking Vietnam like if you look at any sort of like big shift in technology that has democratized the ability to distribute information going back to the printing press. Even. 01:18:39.71 Case Like you see ah like you see the ability to have ah this information get out to people and have them be aware of problems in society The counter response to that isn't to suppress it. It's to flood the market with more noise and that's what we're seeing now where that like the the fact that I ah. 01:18:59.33 Case God I like I'm blanking on the kid' name this the dumb as from fuck ah from Wisconsin that's kind written house. Um, like the fact that he's been lionized as a hero of the right is because they are looking to to flood it and to like have like all this propaganda things like blue lives matter like that's like responses to to win that the. Public is becoming aware of these injustices that are out there like the ah the way to get more people. The the thing is you've got a sign curve that it has become more pronounced in one direction and so the response is to make it more pronounced than the other and that's how you get more galvanized people who are going to you know. Respond with with violence to more dramatic situations like you'll have more protests. But that means you're going to have more you know more assholes and cars trying to run over protesters. 01:19:49.50 Jala and Dave Yeah, and another facet Ah, a lot of that pushback and it's not always top down driven. But in this Case I think that's probably the Case we have ah the the um exponential rise in. 01:20:05.17 Jala and Dave I'm putting some air quotes here but in ah Ai technology and the fact that prior to this there was there was deep fakes. There was things where you could just manipulate um not just photoshop but like most more it was more still images. But now the technology is advanced to the point to where you can like create full-body like representations of people that it's very difficult to distinguish that that that footage is not like an actual person. And there they could do or say anything because they're programmed right? and that's even something that you know we mentioned the strike at the top of the episode sag after is in the middle of like the reason why we're not 100% and it's ah it's a good call that you're not starting your podcast back up again is because some you know like the strike was. Paused or called called off or whatever but like the stuff that's on paper right now has a lot of stuff about ai that is not going down well with the actors for very obvious reasons and like what happens with this strike is going to be. Really important I mean like Ai is coming one way or the other we know that but the terms by which it's being used in everything is you know we have to set the tone for that now and that's that's a big big topic and sag after is actually right in the middle of all of that right now. 01:21:28.20 Case Yeah, well, it's like the the saying that every regulation is someone's life. Um that and and that unfortunately some of that's going to be more abstract than like so as specific as like well that broke because. 01:21:42.23 Case No one was doing maintenance or or things like that like sometimes that means the economy's going to break or industries are going to break um and like while unfortunately each of these new technologies like once they're introduced like you can't put them back in Pandora's box 01:21:59.62 Case Um, and so you have to figure out how to make it all work and like and some of that's going to be red tape because if you don't have that red tape like really bad things can happen. Um, and I'm not trying to say that I'm all for like all all government regulation is good like it's not because a lot of it is is bullshit and and a lot of it like what. Is addressed in this although it's like kind of in a weird way because you find out the person setting it all up is actually trying to undermine it all in a very Phantom kind of style but like legislation is often the the tool of those in power already. Um, industries that are threatened by upstarts are going to try to introduce legislation to prevent the competition from even occurring like capitalism doesn't want a free market Capitalism wants specific industries having ah domination by by set companies either either completely or in alliance such as with like all these media conglomerates. 01:22:49.88 Case Um, so yeah I I don't know it's just like like the the world that we exist in is we're just going to keep on finding new ways to destroy ourselves and we have to figure out how to like like have restraint from doing so. 01:23:06.32 Case And sometimes that means having to make it a law. 01:23:08.49 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that's it's kind of like um, it's interesting because this book even though it was written back in 2007 like it's the same. It's you know Hickman's looking at the same thing we're looking at even though it was you know 2007 when he was looking at it you know versus now. 01:23:23.31 Case Yeah, but he's also super in that space if he's coming from advertising ah which also I should we should. We should note that a lot of people in comics come from advertising that was often like a side like comics were often like a side gig for for like madmen back in like the sixty s ah before it before. 01:23:41.99 Case People who were comics fans got into working in comics. So like it's not new, but it is He is very ah ah much a distinct individual in like the modern landscape of comic creators. 01:23:53.13 Jala and Dave For sure and I think you know again, ah when I look at the book for me. it's it's like I can see the graphic design elements that go into designing splash pages on on the web from 2007 versus you know because like aesthetics also change over time too. So like you look at this and you're like that's a sure as hell is it? Definitely you know from that era. But um, anyway, so yeah, another discussion question. How do we feel about the intentions of the church of the brotherhood of the voice before. We knew that it was the senator behind it all. So how do we feel about that Dave. What do you think? I think that the intentions of the brotherhood in fomenting change and trying to get rid of the um more. Harmful elements of mass media is understandable and I can agree with the idea that they want things to change. Um and that they have to resort to violence to do that is the part that's sad like. Ah, there. There should be another mechanism um to do that that doesn't involve ah like mass murder right? I'm 100% there with you and it changes how when we find out that even this is part of the 1 % 01:25:22.90 Jala and Dave Doing its thing and like you know, whatever like how did did anything change when you found out that ah it was the senator behind it all all along now I just went oh of course it's the man. Yeah yeah, well. 01:25:39.71 Case Well like I compared it with ah Phantom Menace earlier and I think that's an apt comparison because while while Senator director is in that position. Um, and so he is kind of the man he is He is undermining like one of the major institutions of our democracy. 01:25:56.95 Case Ah, in in this scenario. So like it's the man but it's like I hate that I'm about to seize this. It's almost the deep state or a particularly bad actor who is trying to seize power. Um and using like from the stamp like. 01:26:16.31 Case No, no one else could be the voice here right? like anyone else obviously of the characters that were presented but like anyone else wouldn't have the information for it to be that effective like the the because the the actual assassinations are smoke and mirrors with with collateral damage that inspire. 01:26:33.31 Case Things but the way they have to inspire it is reactionary things so you need a person who is in a position to shape and guide the the forces that are responding to those murders into a way that is self-destructive despite their better. Their best intentions like the plan only works if you are able to. Put forth legislation to protect the media in response to these cult members attacking the media and you're the person who puts the cult members there and then if you know if and again I'm hypothesizing about like how it all plays out. But if you have to kill those heads of the of the various you know media conglomerates. In order to make them vulnerable to the legislation situation at the end of it all like it. That's a lot of Domino's pieces that you have to put in order and you have to be able to It's like if domino if you if Domino's was like done by like taking turns and then tipping the whole thing down. Like I realize Domino's the game is taking turns. But like if you were like creating a domino alley kind of kind of situation. Um, and this is a person who's cheating by being both players because otherwise that game just wouldn't work. 01:27:40.44 Jala and Dave Yeah, it's It's ah it's a position that he couldn't have been or whoever is the voice couldn't have been on the ground floor. They just don't have the macro view to to orchestrate all of this and what I did appreciate. In terms of the senator's character is that he gave Geitin a choice in targets in his final like assassination attempt and the senator himself was one of those choices without revealing that he was the voice and he's because he's just doing this for a lark. He doesn't he doesn't Care. He's Bored. He's bored and he has a lot of power so he's just playing with toys and the toys have to be the lives of like all this country's individuals but that he put himself there and he's just like oh yeah I Just it's good coin toss I just. You know, believe that he probably wouldn't shoot me but if he did whatever because then it's still doing something and that's just fun to me because I'm a weird Joker guy. 01:28:37.71 Case Yeah, that this might be well. Yeah I was about to say that exactly because this might just be my calling card on this episode of like man. It's a 2007 ass book but like but think about that in terms of when this was written versus when the dark night was written. This is very much a some people just want to see the world Burn. And I think that that is not a sentiment that was unfamiliar to the general public at that time and it has persisted because things haven't gotten better. 01:29:04.82 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, well and then to something that I was thinking about in terms of like um the church of the brotherhood of the voice and all of that. Ah is you know? Yes, they are killing people but 1 of the quotes from the book is. You want to change the system. It will require 1 innocent bysedan bystander any true believer will do so like you know they're they're killing people but they're it's not a personal thing. It's a you know structural thing they're trying to make pointed kills and at the very very beginning of the book. Believe that when Guytin is is narrating and talking about it. He's like you know? Yeah yeah, we we just need to shoot this one person to get the other people out who are our actual targets and then we'll shoot those people we don't need to shoot everybody. We don't we're not killing everyone that's around we are specifically hitting these specific targets. You know to make a. Point you know it's it's the show it's the show here let's put the heads on the pikes outside the village or whatever you know, kind of thing going on. Um, so I mean like in that way that it's a little bit different than what you have going on. 01:30:14.59 Jala and Dave These days with radicalized elements who are enacting violence on other people in Society. Ah they are not hitting very calculated Targets. You know they are and and that might be um, the result of the fact that these people are operating um you know. Like yes as as a larger group of of radicalized people but like they're making their decisions on what they're going to do and who they're going to attack or whatever themselves ah rather than having like somebody who is savvy and trying to like does you know, ah shape shape society a specific way Like. Um, I'm I'm only just like making this comparison because I'm just thinking about the differences between how the book is you know executing its violence versus how radicalized elements are executing their violence these days you know. 01:31:08.30 Case Yeah I would argue that the book is presenting like ah, a surgeon or like a so yeah I mean it's a sniper versus like a ah like a like shrapnel or a shotgun like the the violence that we're often seeing in the media these days I mean like jn 6 for example, like. 01:31:26.60 Case Wasn't well organized. It was you know like it's it's the noise. It's it's that counter noise to any of the the the left leaning or so I've been trying not not to go on like too many lefty like rants because like I am a ah a big old lefty and like that's sort of sort of 1 of my brands. Um. 01:31:43.64 Jala and Dave You're fine. Yeah. 01:31:44.85 Case And I I'm in like a good like I I'm I'm among my people but at the same time like I also am trying not to like come off too much like a kook but like the the like said there's a lot of like good news that has come from us having a democratized media like by having access to. 01:32:03.28 Case Ah, the ability to publish videos to to do a podcast to do like all these kind of things where we're getting our voices out there much more freely to to people and have it in formats that they can consume everywhere because everyone's got some kind of device that allows them to absorb infinite information all the time. Um, there's plenty of good things that are coming from that. But it Also it is so much noise and like you need to like you if you are the status quo and you like having things kind of work the way that they do need to counterbalance that with with all the the other bullshit and figure out what is an acceptable amount of evil in the world. To allow for a good knock to Prosper. Um and that's sort of like I don't think of any of of like the mass shootings that we're seeing or anything like that I don't see those generally speaking as being like effective macro controlled strategy on this all. It's. 01:32:58.84 Case It It is the it is a bomb burst. Even if it's not a literal bomb. It's it's explicitly trying to create chaos ah of which then actors who are operating in more clandestine ways are able to function whereas and honestly, that's happening here too like the snipers are still doing that. But there's like a specific goal for it. So It's like. This is the Cue ball hitting. Ah ah you know the balls and breaking them up. But um, at this point now most people are only seeing the balls that are like bouncing around the bumpers. 01:33:27.58 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, and um, you know it's definitely a thing where um, the way that so we get our media these days. It's not all from the you know. Big heads of media anymore whatsoever like we get it from a bunch of different places. Ah we talked about it on the internet and identity episode a little bit and in various other places on my show and the last couple of months or so but like part of the ah problem that we are seeing. Is that with this democratization of media in general people are putting out bad bad information and that information is then being absorbed because people just automatically trust it without vetting that source and you know, ah that that also is a problem even in. 01:34:21.90 Jala and Dave Established large media conglomerates and stuff that their information is not always actually accurate and so on and so forth. So um, we went into like the algorithms and you know search engines and you know how it kind of gives you an echo chamber response and how like um. It doesn't you know it has its own biases intrinsic biases that make it really hard to vet your sources and vet your information and get you know like an actual you know, ah fact, checking going on system fact checking system in for yourself as well. I mean like there's stuff like snopes but like. You know, not everything's going to be there. You know if you're listening to a podcast and and somebody's ah telling you a thing or or whatever if you're looking at a Youtube video or something you know it's not going to be honest nopes necessarily so what do you do in that situation to vet your information and another um. Point is that the ability to get a hold of an impartial news source or something that's like outside of the country or just general news that isn't like 1 of the top like 3 Msn or something ah it's all been monetized and now it's behind paywalls or even just general news source a lot of it's behind paywalls. So. It's not free. You have to buy into it ah and picking like you can't subscribe to everything you might have to pick just one and then now you're stuck with whatever point of view that that um. 01:35:53.32 Jala and Dave The the the Chief ah editor is like peddling. It's headlighter. No news all over again. It's that So yeah, um, you do have some freedom to go to. 01:36:07.20 Jala and Dave Non major media sources to get information. But yes, a whole lot of stuff is behind paywalls which makes it even harder. Um, so yeah, like ah I don't think there. There's a way that we can like. Come up with the the great Vast. You know this is the answer to it but these are things that are happening in our world that we all have to grapple with. 01:36:25.17 Case Yeah, unfortunately it's a very complicated web that we can see how to cut individual strands. But like there we are not a large enough like rock to like breakthrough at all like that's just going to. You're going to get caught up in it somehow. 01:36:39.75 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah for sure. So how would this work change if Hickman had showed us regular people's perspectives alongside the perspectives of the people actually acting in the story. 01:36:52.62 Case Well I think it would be a 12 issue series like like the fact that this is 6 issues for the amount of story that actually happens in it is like I I enjoyed this book but it is a very decompressed telling of it all and to like have additional voices particularly people who are. 01:36:54.58 Jala and Dave Um, yeah for sure I would be a lot longer. 01:37:12.64 Case Not not crucial to understanding the actual machinations that ah that occur um man I don't like I it would it would be a lot like to see the man on the streets view of like well that's pretty weird that those guys died I Wonder I wonder if anything's going to happen six months later. 01:37:32.16 Jala and Dave Ah, it. It could have even been something as simple as taking the framework of the um, the cult deprogrammer and the book is sort of ah put in the frame of this is interviews with Geitin. During the deprogramming phase and you're getting ah like ah a more you know potentially have flashlight's all flashback. But it's ah, a linear narrative. Um, as as the interviews of the process of him being like deprogrammed but it's still you could fit the same story in that frame but then have space to. To use the deprogrammer as the character that's able to posit questions and see reactions outside of what's going on directly with the media. 01:38:19.93 Case Yeah, having that is the framing device and him as kind of our audience surrogate to a certain degree. 01:38:27.90 Jala and Dave Yeah, the only thing is is that because it's a comic. It's like it either gets really really really extra long or ah, you know because like to fit into a trade. They're not going to put just like you know, um. 1 extra chapter to ah I'll count for the extra few pages and panels and this that and the other of these other people. Plus if if we did have that in there ah with Hickman style realistically we would just be even more fucking confused about what's going on. You know. 01:38:53.26 Case Yeah, oh my God like with all with all the interviewees and like the people on the street I mean there certainly could be value to it I think that there's really effective stories that have been shown ah of people who have outside information or information about like some sort of like weird sinister story that's going on. 01:39:11.85 Case And then being touched by like the people on the street. Um Mark Wa did a really good story when he did jla um year one ah back in the late 90 s early two thousand s where there's like throughout the whole series. There's this big like meta conspiracy of like people who are like working for this like these like alien invaders. Um, and then you just have like 1 issue where one of the character like one of these guys who's like caught up in it ah is sort of like making his arrangements thinking that the world's going to end tomorrow and then he is just like reminded of all of his family members. All of the people that he like barely takes time to know but like know him like his neighbors and stuff and like you know is. Is forcibly reminded of like the value of human life by virtue of like these like being exposed to all these these aspects like that could be very cool in a book like this. Um, but I don't think it is the story that Hickman wanted to do I think he wanted to do here's here's the sinister conspiracy story um with lots of infographics about how. 01:40:11.70 Case You know, messed up the world as and and to support you know like I said you get these American History X moments where you're like yeah we we need to make a change. Yeah, maybe that maybe that change does involve picking up a gun. Yeah, like because it's trying to sell you on on being like a part of this whole thing and like feeling like something has to be done. And that's why they keep saying like doesn't something have to be done and but the people who are saying that are monsters. 01:40:36.48 Jala and Dave Um, the fun part about it is that it's you know it's using the exact same tricks that the media is you know said to be doing to the general public to make them docile in the face of whatever the powers that be want them to. To believe so like it's doing to you the reader Exactly what the book is telling you is wrong with Media. So That's the fun part about it too and again, that's like the way that it is ah presented is such that it's. Really, you know giving you you know giving and the least when I was going through it like I a step back and I'm looking at it and I'm like Huh I see what you did there Huh That's pretty cool actually and you know having those moments of being in the story and then being taken out of the story and looking at it and going I I see the the larger picture of what you are doing. Overall here. By removing my capacity to look at it for Myself. You are giving me these infographics that I don't know if they're real or not and you're just you know whatever to get me on board to do whatever you're doing exactly what the the Cult's Doing. You're doing exactly what the media is doing all of these people are all doing the same thing as all Propaganda propaganda. All of it. So. 01:41:47.89 Jala and Dave Um, that's that's really just kind of the the interesting thing about this book for me is because it's it's doing the same damn thing and like you know it's it's interesting because to a certain degree. It still works because propaganda work like why do you think people use it because it works you know? So um, yeah. Interesting stuff. So ah, last question though, what does this book leave you with overall going to kick to you first? Dave yeah let's go after lawyers. 01:42:21.73 Jala and Dave Ah, well that was something okay Case how about you. 01:42:25.96 Case Honestly, ah that more comics should be thought of being adapted into powerpoint presentations I think that there is there is a real possibility that this the the best way to read this comic is if it was a powerpoint deck. Was slowly adding the infographics like and and kind of guiding your view the way like comicsology can do I actually didn't read it that way I read it at like full page mode but like um once once I finished I was like oh it'd be kind of fun if like that like all these like little footnotes and stuff that would like pop up and like have like that kind of controlled perspective that you could do with like a powerpoint. Thing I guess what I'm saying is that like I think that there's a lot of like interesting artistry going on and in here that opens up my my thoughts to like well what are the limits of the media because it's ah or the medium I should say because comics often have these like jump start points of like it. It gets kind of static of all the like the. Tricks and tropes and then someone from an outside perspective comes in and does like some really cool stuff and I would say that like you can see some really cool stuff and this is probably too much for like mainstream comics. Ah in terms of the way Hickman puts it together but pair that back a little bit and you get things like. 01:43:35.44 Case Avengers Run which I thought was incredible and did such a fantastic job of having a massive cast that the way that it was organized that you could understand it was by doing these kind of like circle kind of diagrams connecting everything and like keeping the story together and reminding you of key details. You need to know about. Even though there are problems with that run. And same thing with xpan and even though there's like it's so much fun and I love it and it's you know, ah a revolutionary era for a reason but like that the the things that like really help hold it all together are sometimes like those infographics and and things where it's just like oh yeah, that's obvious but like. You just didn't really see that in 2005 and like all of a sudden it was like oh yeah, wouldn't it be nice if we like structured it in a way that the same way that where you're structuring advertising that's going in magazines and all those things right now. Yeah that that would be great. Um, so I guess in summation like this. It. 01:44:31.93 Case It's a really fresh book from the perspective of when it came out and it's it's an admirable admirable book to look at generally um and it's very raw and creative and it feels you know if it feels like a lot of like Sundance movies. 01:44:45.31 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, it does and so at 1 point in time I want to say it was 2004 I took a class that was about you know the the medium of comics and how those are literature and like the. You know, breaking down all the different aspects of how um it works as a medium versus something like a movie or a a um you know prose story or something like that and so ah, one of the things that was talked about was one of the pros and one of the the unique things about. Comics versus something like a movie so like looking at. For example, watchmen, you're looking at the watchmen comic versus the watchmen movie well when you're watching a movie. It's 100 % passive you are just watching it. You are absorbing. It. It's on the screen and it's in the pacing and you know timing and you know whatever that the director wants for you. And yes, comics are also directed and things like that. But you have the power to go back a page and go look at it again and take your time and read the panels. However, you want to absorb the full page or whatever and um, when you're talking like powerpoint presentations and also ah you know again, that's also the way that comicsology would do you know where it like it. It introduces elements of the page and focuses them in for you as you're reading the page that way you know like that is making those choices for you and makes it more of a passive thing like the audience is absorbing it now that in that power of. 01:46:19.30 Jala and Dave Doing it that way presenting it that way like you know that's a very salient point that you have powerpoint presentation where you're presented this information you have a moment to soak that in and then you hit the button and then the next slide comes and then it adds something else that turns that on its head Well then it kind of gives you that? um. You know flip flopping of of um, like mental gymnastics that you're doing while you're you're absorbing this and like taking in each piece of you know information or art or story or whatever ah in a specific sequence and how that affects. How you absorb that Story. You know like if in a powerpoint presentation. You wouldn't necessarily see the entire page as a whole you know, like if it's comicsology. For example, it would be like here's Panel Panel Panel Panel then it zooms out and then you can see the whole page. You know? So um. 01:47:07.95 Case Yeah, yeah. 01:47:11.98 Jala and Dave You know that's an interesting way of doing it and you know I think um, there have been a few visual novels that have kind of worked with you know, something like motion comic type stuff. Um, but I haven't seen anything. Do it quite in the style that you're saying but that would be an interesting way of using it and I think Hickman would be so good at that particular style. So yeah, um, yeah, that's that's about, um. 01:47:34.90 Case Right. 01:47:41.80 Jala and Dave All I've got too like ah the reason why this stands out to me so much I mean like yes, the the satire this presented itself the critique that is presented itself is interesting and stuck with me but also the way that it's presented the way that it is written and everything is unique. And in that way I was like oh I have to talk about this, you know and of course as I said I can tie it back into well we were talking about How do you fact, check and fake news and social media and you know how we get our information these days versus. Back in the day and all of this stuff like we've talked about this more recently on my show for hours hours hours. So you know, um, this was just something that was just kind of a natural fit for for end of this year to talk about that as well. So yeah. 01:48:28.79 Case Yeah, as we're about to go into another worst year ever of an election of an election cycle in the United States oh god remember fact checking please. 01:48:37.60 Jala and Dave Yes, yes, absolutely do not hit any kind of like a share button. Don't don't just assume that whatever you're seeing is correct. Go go look it up and see if you can find I understand the algorithms are all jacked but do your best. That's all we can do really. 01:48:54.81 Case Yeah, none of us are perfect. We've all done it like just everyone out there like it's it it happens but you know just try to remember each time like is this real like do you trust the source. 01:48:56.18 Jala and Dave So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure and even if you think you trust the source check anyway that that would be my my rule of thumb there but some yeah. Ah, so wrapping this episode up, Let us give our socials and then we'll drive on out of here. So where in the world can people find you on the internet if you are to be found Case. 01:49:27.77 Case Ah, so on the hell site called X You can find me @caseaiken at most of these websites you can find me at caseaiken.bsky.social is my go to at the moment for like where where I'm going where where I think the party's going I'm not entirely sure. Um, yeah. 01:49:40.57 Jala and Dave I Don't know either. 01:49:44.77 Case Um, but otherwise ah you can find me on Instagram at quetzalcoatl5 because I'm holding onto my AIM screenname for damn for dear life over there? Um, and ah otherwise you can find me on shows that I host. So ah, they're at certainpov.com or if you just look up on all your podcast apps. I've got Another Pass which is a movie show and Men of Steel which is a Superman and Superman-adjacent show. Both of those are a ton of fun or go to Youtube and look for certain pov media and you will find something that I made you'll probably see an animated version of my head or 1 of the many awesome people who do stuff for Certain POV. Um, check all that out and you know. Give give those a follow if you if you want. 01:50:21.84 Jala and Dave You should because they're all wonderful and lovely. So there Dave where can people find you you don't even know your're social. Yeah dude I did this time you can find me on Bluesky at senplus.bsky.social. Ah, or you can get a hold of me or my co-hosts at monsterdear.monster for background. Ah for the last 2 or 3 shows Dave has not known that and I've had to scream off mic over there and be like it's senplus so anyway. Ah yes I am easy. You can find me everywhere I may be found @jalachan including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others so that is all folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]