[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.20 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala'chan's Place I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Matt (they/them) Nick (he/him) and Desiree (she/her) hooray so big old cast for a very important and very cool. Episode I think on ah, empathy and emotional intelligence look I got it out at the beginning y'all like instead of waiting 5 minutes for the banter and then going. Oh yeah, also we're talking about something and yeah. 00:34.40 Nick Fakhoury That's perfect. 00:35.85 Jala Yeah, so ah, we already kind of discussed in the green room. Everybody is some level of tired and/or wired so that that's kind of how we're doing does anybody have anything fun to share. 00:51.36 Nick Fakhoury Well um, I'm going to a Halloween party a little bit later today and we're gonna be doing a hot ones challenge. Um, but it's not gonna be. It's gonna be chicken nuggets hot ones challenge. 00:53.14 Jala Ooo cool. 01:03.75 Nick Fakhoury And it's going to be very like it's that we're not going to be sitting sitting down and like forcing each other to finish I'm probably going to tap out is everybody familiar with the hot ones challenge. So it's. 01:11.26 Jala Um, no I was going to ask you what? But what is this. 01:14.74 Nick Fakhoury Um, it's basically like ah it's a thing that rose that people can do now. But it's spawned off of this Youtube channel of a guy who does interviews celebrity interviews and he gets famous actors or writers or you know just people in hollywood on his show and he asks them. Ah, really deep, insightful personal questions. While they're eating wings that have incredibly spicy sauce so they're basically under duress while they're being interviewed by this guy but it would be funny if he did those you know vogue 20 questions in 20 minutes silliness but he actually asked them really deep insightful sometimes semi-personal questions about their life or their career. And so they have to like struggle with the heat while they're answering it. But yeah, it's just a fun thing to do with friends that you can just buy off Amazon now so that'll be a little Halloween celebration. Yeah yeah. 01:58.74 Jala Cool I guess maybe depending upon how much you like hot things. 02:04.86 Nick Fakhoury Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm probably going to tap out at like the fifth hot sauce so we're we're good. It's like a scale from 1 to 10 It's yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how that goes. 02:15.44 Jala Well, that is very cool. Um, we got some rain. We've been very dry here. So like the fact that we got some rain is amazing. It's been. You know the low 90 s for I don't know a while we had like. 02:30.21 Jala A few days that felt like fall early in October and then like nothing else. It's just been hot and human. So. 02:37.57 Nick Fakhoury It's super warm up here in North Carolina as well. I'm not sure where it's like on other but really, ah yeah I'm ready for the the sixty degree weather. Give it back to me. 02:41.19 Matt It's warm in New York too it's awful here. Ah yeah, yeah, it. 02:45.89 Desiree Well then come visit me in Kansas because it is overcast and rainy and chilly and perfect fall weather I'm loving it. 02:54.35 Nick Fakhoury That sounds amazing I'll take silent Hill weather over this any day. 02:57.45 Matt Let the ah same. 02:58.23 Jala Well that Silent Hill weather will be going to my house ah later on in like a few days or so according to the weatherman. So sorry desks. But yeah, okay, good there you go great. Great. 03:10.21 Desiree And we'll be keeping it here too. So it's that time a year but no rain on Halloween which is very important because it's my favorite day of the year so 03:23.60 Matt Um, it's a good one? yeah. 03:25.11 Jala Yeah, so ah that this episode comes out on November tenth so this will be like everybody having like flashbacks to a wonderful spooky season. But yeah deaths you go all out with the candies and stuff right. 03:35.20 Desiree And I do we have multiple tables set up in the driveway one. That's all of the chocolates and potential things that might have allergens in them then another table. That's all of the like fruity candies or things that would be less likely to have allergens and then a blue pumpkin table. That's. Coloring books and flip cards for learning different flags of countries and educational things and little toys and stuffed animals and stuff like that. So definitely go all out for the time of year. 04:07.63 Jala So I I know the answer to this because you're younger than me but where were you when I was a child. Ah so. 04:14.33 Desiree Ah, so where I'm from Indiana and in Indiana they celebrate Halloween on the thirtieth and thirty first because back when my mom was a kid they would stretch it out to a whole week and then the state finally had to be like all right y'all you can't have a week we'll give you two days so you take one day to go to like the more rural houses and get the handmade candies and then the other day to go to the rich neighborhoods and get the cans of soda and the full size candy bars and all of that stuff so coming to Kansas my first year and setting up everything on the thirtieth and being like oh boy, oh boy, oh boy where is everybody and then. Finding out. Oh you don't do the fun thing. Two days a year so have to amp it up even more for just the one day I do get. 04:59.19 Jala well that's awesome so yeah well I guess everybody will have to check back in and be like how is desirees Halloween yeah so I'll have to get the report and then bring that to the next episode that comes out after this one. 05:11.70 Desiree For sure. 05:14.67 Jala So yeah, everybody here Desiree Desirere has been on the show before on various topical episodes. So folks will remember her from those ah the last one that you were on was death positivity which was ah quite a very fun and funny episode. So like if people have not heard that one go back and listen to that 1 so yeah and you had some fun stories too. But I mean who can top cameron talking about accidentally face planting into the chest cavity of a cadaver I mean do you know. 05:36.00 Desiree I was not the funny part of that by the way. Ah. 05:47.94 Desiree Um, exactly Yes, yes. 05:52.31 Jala That that was pretty memorable. But anyway yeah so Matt and Nick both are fellow podcasters who have been on this show before as well. So Matt you were on the portal episode. Yay. 06:04.48 Matt I Was yeah talking and video games shocking to everyone who follows me anywhere that I would want to talk about video games on a podcast. That's very unlike me. 06:12.44 Jala Oh oh that segues into what do you do tell people what you do. 06:19.82 Matt So I am a podcaster I've been podcasting for a little over 11 years which feels very unreal to say out loud. Um I have three active shows that I host with co-hosts one is a video game topical video game podcast that sometimes also delves into interviews and. Retrospectives and some other things call fun games I do a Bioware focused podcast that started with mass effect and has now moved on to the dragon age franchise called reignite and then I do a Tv and movie podcast called screensnark that actually isn't about Tv and movies right now because we are standing in solidarity with the actors still striking. So it's about literally anything else music books ah live theater. What event we went to that Friday literally anything else. It can be and fun fact for your listeners. Although who knows maybe it's out by now and the strike has ended but we do have a episode with jalla in the can that we are waiting to release. 06:54.60 Nick Fakhoury Nice. 07:12.43 Matt Because we talked very deeply about a lot of very struck material but there is 1 in the can that I'm actually curious to see how that time capsule works once it actually finally comes out because we will release it once. Ah, the strike is over so that should be fun, but that's coming eventually eta. 07:26.19 Jala Yeah, it's it's kind of the same with some of the stuff that I've got coming down the pipes for the media episodes like dishonor got pushback just because I wasn't sure if they you know the the. Sag folks were going to be striking video games or not and I didn't want to like record it because I record really in advance and then just not be able to release it and then have to rush you know to do the next so so I'm I'm holding off on that one yet that'll be 2024 at this juncture. But also I will be having Matt and Rachel both from screensnark on to talk about a struck work in the future whenever we can talk about that. So yeah and Nick Nick you were on the fire emblem episode yay fire emblem and. 08:13.10 Jala And it was so wonderful of you to just like show up for that one because I randomly was like hey Nick we just started talking today but hey I have an open spot on my show. Do you want to pop on and you're like ok so. 08:29.12 Nick Fakhoury I'm so passionate about fire and bloom because it's been something that like I've played for so many years that just the offer itself was like you know. Okay, why not I got the time I'm not really doing anything else. Super important right now. So yeah, that was a really fun episode I Absolutely enjoyed that. 08:44.70 Jala Yeah, it was wonderful to have you on and I also I don't know when because like all of my episodes already have like co-hosts slash guests for the next year but I need to get well on sometime too. Anyway, Um, but yeah, talk tell people who will is. 09:02.43 Jala But you do. 09:02.66 Nick Fakhoury Absolutely yeah, so I say that not the same as Matt because Matt has ah a much longer experience in the podcasting game than I do but ah will and I started a video game. No no, no, we're we're the same age cohort. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. 09:12.51 Matt You could just say I'm old. It's fine. You know you could just say it as truth. Okay, okay, ah. 09:19.65 Nick Fakhoury Ah, we definitely started later ah in terms of the podcasting game because I met will through his wife. Um and who she and I worked at a bank together and we both did ah hr and will and I met and we you know immediately bonded and became like instant friends and you know really just had great conversations about video games and I had the. Ah, the bright idea to put it behind a microphone and then it's just kind of that became ah the Friday night gamecast and that's what we do now we are just really focused on celebrating the video game industry and just um, sharing our love for the art. Ah, with as many people as we possibly can and just building a community based off of that. But yeah, we're a variety-based video game podcast so we do a little bit of everything we talk about some of the news some of the the industry goings on and ah we we also focus on like hardline reviews for games. So this year has been a real grind try and get through all the. The major notable aleas that most outlets are focusing on. Ah, but yeah, so that's kind of what we've been focus on this year and yeah and we kind of just our 2 best friends and we love to talk about games. Um, and then sometimes real-life stuff too also happens to come off across the show much less often than on jolahan's place. But. It's it's definitely good time being here and being in a show like this that's outside of my regular forte. 10:34.91 Jala I know I was so excited when you were like yeah I'll talk about this thing and I'm like Yay. So yeah, Ah, we will have links in the show notes for that for everybody I also wanted to shout out to Randomsome! Yay! Randomsome is our newest Patron for this show and for Monster Dear Monster, for Fireheart Media. We have a Ko-fi and you can be like Randomsome and become one of my absolute favorite people. 11:06.90 Jala By going to ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia and either dropping as a onetime donation or subscribing yes, Ko-fi has patron tearsers just like Patreon and there's extra stuff for subscribers and I will put a little asterisks. Um, there are a couple of bonus shows. Coming out pretty soon I don't know if they're going to be out ah by the time this episode drops or if it'll be a little bit later but ah in the next month or so there's going to be new content. Ah one of which is going to be a bonus show that is more or less like side ideas and side information that. Kind of comes from the well from which we are drawing in recent episodes. So like say for example, I was on a guest episode of men of steel and the idea for something that I want to do on that show has to do with Superman because ah, that was that Superman Podcast we were talking about a comic. So ah, that might be popping up. And who knows what's it's going to be like a grab bag of different random stuff. There's also going to be another one called ommae box and that one's for the top tier folks. Ah omaka box is basically a bunch of little extra stories people. Love it when I tell random stories. And so it's going to be like a mishmash of various random stories that I tell about who knows what? but believe me I've tried this out I've tested this in my discord server and I've sent it to folks. You know, just like random stories to people and I have gotten back this fun feedback like. 12:35.90 Jala These are hilarious and I didn't know that I needed thirty second stories from you. Um, and that kind of thing so you can look forward to that. Ah there also also also is potentially going to be another show another little short show that'll be written works but like short little vignettes so it'll be like. Um, kind of like how Matt does side quests on fun and games where they're like 5 to 20 minutes worth of somebody talking very passionately about a game that they like this show would be 5 to 20 minutes of a creative work either by myself or Dave so trying to get that creative stuff back out in the world because. Little do people know among other things. Both Dave and I do actual physical artwork and we also write so those are things that are going to be coming down the pipes for this podcasting network so you can do that and yeah, that's that's the end of my admin. I think we're ready to talk about emotional intelligence and empathy. Yay. 13:41.53 Jala So I'm going to actually kick to desiree first because you are the the super academia lady Desiree tell us about empathy. What is empathy. 13:53.30 Desiree So Empathy and sympathy are 2 similar and related type of ideas for me at least and in things I've read and such sympathy is more you know you see. Someone getting caught in the rain. No Umbrella you're like oof that must not be fun to be white. Your shoes are what all these things you can feel bad for them. But you're sitting inside in your dry house like I'm fine but I can see them going through a bad time. Empathy is. Just last week you got caught in a torrential downpour. You know the wet squishy feeling in your shoes and having to maybe then go sit in an office and be cold and all these things that come from truly experiencing that same type of thing. And so while you know you can't know how that other person is internally processing that maybe they love dancing in the rain and they were having a great time and um, you know so you can't fully know that everyone who gets reined on. 15:07.14 Desiree Feels the same emotions for people who do have a negative experience with it. You know you can empathize then because you have that understanding of having gone through it. 15:18.90 Jala Right? right? It's basically you are emotionally understanding what you perceive other people to be feeling so like there is a little bit of ah perception involved there. There's also a bit of projection. 15:32.50 Jala Because I mean empathy is essentially projecting how you feel in that similar situation onto the situation that this other person has and sometimes you can misread and sometimes you can project the wrong thing and that's not actually just like you said des Um, that might not actually be exactly what they're feeling. 15:51.54 Jala But you know you're doing your best to kind of meet them where they are and and feel with them if you will So it's kind of imagining yourself in their place and seeing from their point of view. So it is really important to note that um, empathy is not something that is universal. 16:11.53 Jala So ah, you are not necessarily empathetic to all people as like a ah state of human conditioning. You know, like not every human is going to be empathetic towards every other human or every other living creature. Ah, for example, you know there are people who are cruel to animals. 16:29.76 Jala And like they're they're not being empathetic towards that animal. They're treating that animal like an other and you know not empathizing people. Also do that to other people as all of us know and it's interesting because I didn't realize that the term empathy was. Actually first introduced in 199 by a psychologist named Edward B Titchner as a translation of the german term I can't pronounce german does anybody know german Ein flung okay meaning feeling into so ah, that's. 16:58.80 Desiree Um, ein ein flung. 17:05.49 Jala That feeling into is a really good way to describe that I think so Matt or nick do you have any other kind of ways of describing or thinking of empathy just kind of in general terms. 17:23.20 Nick Fakhoury Um, so to jump in there I I think we really captured it here in just what you're talking about in terms of defining what it is I really liked what does Ray had to say about the differences between empathy and sympathy I think empathy. Is a much more actuating experience when you're um, kind of interfacing with other humans. Um, it's interesting. You brought the the whole idea up of empathy. You know with animals and and being you know, empathetic I always characterize it. Or in my mind at the very least I characterize empathy as being a strictly human experience a human to-human experience. But um I think empathy does go beyond that it kind of has to do with um how you interface with your environment how you interface with the world because it it goes beyond just the sphere of interpersonal socialization. So that's um, yeah, that's kind of where where my idea is with it right now. 18:19.30 Jala Well, it's funny as you were talking about that. Um I was just thinking you know that's because I'm I'm secretly a gigantic mush. Don't tell anybody and um, so like I'm really empathetic with everything everything. Um I'm a bad. 18:36.97 Jala Farmer because every time that I try to plant something that's like a root vegetable I don't want to dig it up. Um I I fall in love with the plant and that I feel bad if I try to dig up the like I don't want to do that I really just want to allow my happy plant to grow and and be the happiest plant. It can ever be and like I so I'm super projecting. You know like that plant I mean plants. There have been some studies plants do actually respond to stuff. We don't know you know what that exactly means but you know like that I'm not going to anthropomorphize the but like I definitely feel. I'm constantly projecting myself out there and thinking about how this would feel and you know what I like it if x and that kind of a thing really kind of extending the golden rule past humans and into just everything around me. So ah, but I I'm a weirdo in that way like not everybody does that. So I think that that's kind of more of a mindfulness practice. You know, ah empathy is part of Mindfulness Mindfulness and empathy are um you know closely intertwined but they are different I think that's more mindfulness than. 19:52.10 Desiree So I would say it's also part of you being a phenomenally creative person so being on my science fiction side and in all of my networks and things there I know a lot of authors and. 19:52.61 Jala Empathy per se. 20:09.73 Desiree 1 of my dear friends just had a new book out and did a reading and 1 of her stories was called Noah's Raven and she was trying to tell the story of Noah's ark through kind of the perception of a raven but being fully aware of anthropomorphizing a raven and not actually being able. To experience the world as a Raven but still trying to tell that story so being creative and especially storytelling. There's a ton of empathy that has to go into that work. Or at least an attempt at that empathy to put yourself in the place of these characters that you're trying to build a world for. 20:46.74 Jala And you know that's a point I never thought about before but that's a good one. 20:52.26 Desiree And I just now thought of it so it didn't end up in the show notes. So. 20:58.53 Jala That's okay, that's why people are listening and not just reading the show notes. So yeah, yeah, so ah Matt did you have anything else to add on any of that or. 21:08.89 Matt I mean I think you you all really covered it pretty Well I mean for me, empathy at its basis base is just a sharing of emotion to me like ah it it is all the things we've talked about but it boils down to me in the same way. Jolly you were talking about how you kind of project. Onto your plants I I mean even as kids we all kind of project onto our toys right? to a to certain degree and like it it comes from if you're an emotionally open person doing a lot of that. But for me also I just feel like it's it's sharing in an emotion whether you're correct in the emotion. 21:30.33 Jala That hurt. 21:44.60 Matt You are assuming someone is going through or actually just truly feeling what they're feeling which is a whole different thing that we'll get to later and I think for me like that's kind of the kind of where I've always framed around it and then like all of these more technical definitions are like oh yeah, that makes sense or yeah, that's probably what I'm really doing but for me, it's just like this. Sharing in a moment of emotion with another person animal video game character. You know whoever? um I'm sure later on. We're going to talk quite a bit about how I've cried at a 1 many video games movies and even music and a lot of that I think comes from how you can empathetically engage in art. Not just creating it. But just when you experience it? Ah which is a big part of ah how I move through the world. Ah, but but I think like for sure it's very much a it's a motion forward empathy whereas I think other things are maybe more logical or more. Tactical or strategic to me empathy is something that emotion is is the the most important part of it and why it it is the way it is. 22:50.85 Jala Right? right? And that is also a very very good point as Well. We empathize and because we empathize with characters or whatever. That's why those stories are so gripping. Um, you know for me I I tend to when it comes to media I tend to gravitate the most to. Media where I feel compelled by the characters I feel very tied to the characters and if I don't like any of the characters in something it becomes a big challenge for me to pay attention to that thing. Um, if I like the world or the story enough I might be able to push past that. But like. If I don't like those characters even if they're intentionally unlikable something like say for example, um, until dawn or something like that. They're intentionally un unlikeable right? I cannot get through this I cannot.. It's hard. So um, but. 23:36.71 Nick Fakhoury Yeah I think it's important to point out and sorry I didn't mean to cut you off Challa Um I I know that we probably will cover this later I Just I thought I thought it would be nice upfront while we're talking in like this generalized space to point out or to. 23:45.70 Jala Yeah, go ahead. 23:56.71 Nick Fakhoury Just air out the idea that empathy is not a static constant in someone's life I Think for some people it might absolutely be Jalla for for sure being just the the person who's full of creativity and emotion and and just being an overall empath yourself. But I think for a lot of people empathy is very dynamic. And we'll get into why later? Um, especially as you said that where people you know, kind of can choose when they can turn it on and then turn it off at points. Um, but I Also think that I wonder and I am curious about empathy being a learned behavior or something that is just instilled into people. As they as they go along I think definitely your community and the people you surround yourself with um, can either ah affect your capacity for engaging in empathetic behaviors with other people in your life. But I Also think that like empathy. Starts when you're a child and then as you grow into an adult emotions change and your feelings about the world and the people around you will absolutely change and I think your ability to engage engage. Um in an empathetic way with other people or other things in your life um can change as well. 25:06.99 Jala Well I would say also that although we do learn empathy like we we experience empathy as a result of our our own personal attachments to things and people and whatever creatures around us. Ah, at the same time. There are also so many instances where you see a little kid who is being really really mean or rough or whatever to another little kid or abusive to an animal or something like that and then you have to teach them. Empathy. You have to teach them. Well what would you feel if this happened to you. 25:44.90 Jala And then they have to to learn how to project themselves in so like some of that is is really definitely like a learned behavioral thing that comes with exposure and thought and you know intentionality behind it for sure so and it can become. 26:02.64 Jala Second nature or you know your primary modus Operaondi but ah it has to start somewhere you know like you don't You're not and I'm not all about not everything about empathy is something that you are inherently born with you know, like it has to be a learned behavior as well. So. 26:22.59 Jala But yeah, ah signs that you are an empathetic person are you're good at truly listening to other people people often tell you their problems. You're good at picking up on what others are feeling you often think about how others feel people often come to you for Advice. You try to help people who are Suffering. You're good at telling when someone is not being fully honest, you can feel drained or overwhelmed in social situations you care deeply about others and you find it difficult to set boundaries now that last One. Oh. Oh Oh I've had some problems with that in my life being so empathetic and wanting to help so earnestly. Ah that that I overstep and and I do not leave room for me and that's a thing that is very common among caretakers as well. Um, Caretakers give and give and give and because that's their primary thing that they're doing all the time it becomes difficult to carve out that space for themselves and they feel like that's that's a wrong to Them. You know when really you have to pour from a cup that has already got something in it. You can't be Empty. You know that kind of thing. 27:39.50 Matt Yeah completely I think this list is ah very telling. It's the it's like the meme of you know I'm oh no I'm in this tweet or whatever it is. It's like you know, seeing seeing yourself so clearly one of them that I think is is. 27:52.38 Matt Kind of actually entertaining for me though. Annoying is the people often tell you their problems thing an extension of that is like we've all heard resting bitch face right? or this idea that someone looks mean or miserable and so no one talks to them I must have the opposite of that resting nice face because living in New York especially like. 28:11.98 Matt I could be minding my own business have a scowl I think and like be listening to heavy metal and someone's just like hey can you tell me how to get to this place and it's like like not engaging at all in the world around me and yet still someone asks for directions and it's it goes gone beyond that asking for help in this other thing which of course I'm happy to do but it happens at a rate that like. Even when I'm moving through the world not in an empathetic mood in that moment. Apparently my overall vibe is still that even if I am really trying to be a rain cloud and it's It's often become entertaining to me like I'll be sitting on the train like purposely scowling mad about something something happened that someone will still ask for help or ask for directions and so. I Think it's it leads to my what I was saying about earlier in this thing that empathy can kind of also just be a vibe. Not something that you even actively do it just a way an aura you give off or a way you carry yourself and that one specifically targeted to me like stands out is like oh yeah, okay, that's me. 29:06.80 Jala Yeah, yeah, I hear that I've definitely have been that person who's like on the bus spining my own business. Got the headphones on looking out the window not paying any width of attention to anyone else and then suddenly someone turns to me. And by the time I get off that bus I know all about all of the interventions that happened in their family in the last two years you know I know there there history from the time that they can first remember you know doing anything whatever but I don't know their name but I know all this other stuff about them because they just. 29:40.84 Jala Are telling me everything and and that's that's definitely ah true. That's a thing that absolutely happens for sure. So. 29:47.94 Desiree 1 with boundaries like I I think and I still do think of myself as someone who's very good at setting them yet. I had a former boss who I adore tell me I need you to accept you are shit at setting boundaries. You excel saying no to things you don't want to do and I was like oh well yes, but I have students who need me and she was like yes and hence you are not good at setting boundaries with those you care about or those you're invested in and okay so maybe I can work on that. But. I do still think I am quite good at setting them to an extent. Yeah. 30:30.21 Jala Yeah I I love this because because does does is not good at setting boundaries. Ah, ah, but anyway, um, that's okay, that's okay, um. 30:44.16 Jala I Actually do want to do a future episode about boundaries So deaths we're going to have you back. Talk about it. Yes, yes, it's in the it's in the Mill waiting. So yeah, for sure So Nick which one is you which one do you feel. 30:50.57 Nick Fakhoury Ah, you're already built into the content as. 31:00.86 Nick Fakhoury Um, thinking about how other people feel 100%. It's it's so interesting that I mean this list exactly what? what Matt was saying earlier about oh my gosh is this ah post is reading me for filth right now. But I ah I have to say that I often think about how other people feel in. I go too far to think about my I go too deep sometimes in thinking about how could they react to imaginary situations or how do they feel I think that something that has been a little bit of a stranglehold on my adult life is considering how others people may feel. Regardless of what their thought process is when it concerns my feelings. Um and this is people who have been in my romantic life people that are in my family. Um I think that I I am very empathetic to to the extent where I'm I'm looking at that people who don't really come for me. Come to me for advice though I just like freely give them advice ah and unwarranted unprompted which is not a good trait. No I I used to be that guy I think I've tried to work on it over time. But yeah, no, it's some. It's definitely I can I as. 32:03.76 Jala Oh no, you're that guy. Ah. 32:16.10 Nick Fakhoury When I characterize myself and selfidentify as an empathetic person. Um, it's the kind of that tandem on thinking about what other people are feeling and then very easily picking up on body language and the behaviors and and voice patterns and realizing how other people are feeling a or yeah. Picking up on their emotions their thought processes and kind of just delving into that I get too deep into my own head sometimes but that's um, yeah I don't I don't know if that 100 % makes me an empathetic person and overall I guess it always just depends on your perspective when you're looking at or your experiences with an individual and how. You've been treated or or how you treat others? um and how you and that can always affect how you just help identify. 32:59.40 Jala Right. 32:59.40 Matt Yeah I mean I I connect with that a lot and like to the point where even I'll take the agency away from the other person of them being able to tell me how they feel or how they really feel because I've just assumed they're mad at me like that's the big 1 right for all of us like you you get this vibe that someone is. 33:14.60 Nick Fakhoury Yep. 33:17.92 Matt Upset or distressed and so you of course if you're like me decide. Oh no, it must be me I'm the high it's me I'm the problem. It's me um, and like I have often found myself, especially in a professional setting like assuming my bosses pissed at me because something went wrong instead of and all and I'm gotten better at it over the years of course like. 33:37.34 Matt Instead of just engaging and immediately asking what's wrong or immediately asking hey how can I fix this I Just go up. They're mad at me. Well, everything's screwed I know it I can feel it. They're definitely mad when they could be mad that their computer is not working or something and like it's totally a thing that while also very good to be able to read someone's emotion can also. 33:54.94 Matt Like if you're very empathetic can get you not necessarily into trouble but just into these places where you're kind of taking their emotional agency away because you're deciding how they feel instead of asking them how they feel which is just as important right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. 34:03.22 Nick Fakhoury Yeah I Also don't believe them when they tell me that they're not mad at me I'm like how could you not be how could you not be. 34:12.41 Matt You must be mad at me. You liar. 34:15.11 Jala Ah, well you know and I think the reason for that is because when you're somebody who is empathetic when you mess up, you are not just flagellating yourself because. Ah, you messed up and you need to do better or whatever but because you're also thinking I made this other feel this other person feel x and I can't believe I wonder how many other people I made feel x and then so you're taking like the onus of every last thing and like crucifying yourself with it which is you know that can be a. So much and to be doing to be walking through the world and doing that all the time. Um I definitely have been in that place where I'm like they must be mad at me because they are being like they're blowing off steam in my direction and it's not me. It's something else and I'm I'm also like actively working on that because once I become aware that i'm. Doing something that I need to change like I I whittle away at it as much as I can and I study about it part of why this episode exists. Um, so that I can get better at it. You know and and become you know a more well-rounded individual overtime. So ah, something that's funny is that when Nick you were talking about ah being able to read people's body language and tone of voice and this that and the other I can also read people's texting style like you know all of you can do this I'm sure you can see in the way someone is texting. 35:41.23 Jala That something's up. You know if something is up. You know that there is something up because something's off about how they're texting like they're not using the same punctuation. They usually do or their word choices are different or whatever like and even just like how long it takes them to type can also be an indicator of something else. You know happening. So um, and it's just because like we're we're being attentive. You know we're we're being mindful of the people and things around us. Um I know that folks who are autistic. For example. They can observe these things but they don't know they don't know how to translate that into what that means and it can be harder for them to project into this so I actually would be interested in talking about empathy on the episode about neurodiversity which is coming out next year ah on which I will be having a person who is autistic as well. so so yeah um that's part of 1 of the challenges for empathy. Um, sometimes people can't be empathetic because they just their their brain is not wired to allow for that and it's harder for them to get there. Ah because. The way that their brain wiring is is such that it's it's ah, a different route. You know, ah, and so that that comes with like I'm I'm interested in knowing and I put a pin in this because we're going to talk about it on that episode next year um I'm interested in knowing how. 37:11.50 Jala Folks overcome that you know when it comes to trying to understand the emotions of other people. But um, yeah, so clinically. There are 3 forms of empathy which are generally recognized. There's. Effective empathy which is the ability to respond to other people's emotions appropriately somatic empathy which is the ability to physically feel what another person is feeling and cognitive empathy which is the ability to understand someone's response to a situation in what they might be thinking. So somatic empathy is an interesting one to me because that's the ability to physically feel what another person is feeling I assume this would be like you are in it with them like you you are in tune with that person enough that like. 38:02.42 Jala When they are actually going through a thing like you are actually your body starts to so you know ah link up with how they're feeling and and kind of express it the same way because that that is something that happens if you are close enough to someone. 38:17.98 Desiree I Would say you don't even have to be close enough to somebody I would say that it can happen in large groups of people you may not know at all where they're heightened emotions because this is the one that tends to get me in trouble. 38:36.54 Desiree Working at you know a large University There are all sorts of events happening various times and things I'll wrap myself out a little bit with this story I went to a coworkers going away party I had only worked in the department a few weeks didn't know them very well but there was cake and I really wanted cake. And so I went and I sat and I had my piece of cake and then students and students are saw a super soft point for me, got up and started giving all these speeches about this person who was leaving and but this person meant to them and so people are just like dabbing tiny little tears away at the corner of their eyes. So No one else is. Really having a wave of emotion over it except for me who is sitting there in the middle of the room trying to look for every exit trying to be like oh this cake was not worth this. This was you know University catering cake. This was not. I've made a mistake because I start turning very bright red because I'm very very Pale. So. It's super obvious when I start to get flush and tears just start streaming and I like sneak out and excuse myself and apparently I was the talk of student affairs for like a week like. 39:49.17 Desiree How does she know him are they is there? No I Just there was a lot of emotion in that room and everyone else was getting a tiny little drop of it and just seeing all those tiny little drops of emotion became a huge wave of it for me. So. 40:06.91 Desiree I think it can happen on that level where you're super deeply connected to somebody but it can also happen in massive groups of people. You may not know very well at all if you are a super empathetic person or. Hyper observational type of person like at one point I thought I was going to go into the Fbi and be a behavioral profiler because I'm very good at that observational piece and I think that is inherently tied and linked to empathy and making those observations and things. But. Yep, it can get you in trouble and make you the talk of student affairs for a week because you're crying over someone. You don't even know. 40:44.15 Matt I I relate to this really hard. This is the way my empathy channels. The strongest is I can be. It could be someone I know really well or someone I've never met before but if I'm in the right headspace and if I am paying enough attention I can just immediately feel what they're going through. Ah. Um, the most recent life is strange game True colors does like a superhero kind of power version of this where you could see the the vibes of the emotion of someone else and actually read the thoughts via their emotion which is obviously a superheroed kind of video gamy version of it. But it's not super far off. 41:18.23 Matt Um, I've been a dejay for many years amongst the other insane amount of things I do and though I haven't deejayed recently one of the things that often got me into trouble just got me bizarre looks is like deejaying and am seeing many a wedding that like I dejayed friends weddings and all bets are off if I know you I'm going to be a weepy mess during the ceremony doesn't matter. Like just guaranteed if I know you but I'd done quite a few weddings where I knew the couple through a friend or and like some friends were at the wedding but I don't know the couple personally and like the minute they get to the vows like I just start to lose it and kind of got a like bite my lip or just like make sure I'm not in view because I really just. 41:57.17 Matt I love love. It's as corny as it is and so like a lot of that stuff really gets to me in a similar way like I was at this wedding for this lovely couple who I didn't know literally anyone except 1 person at this wedding and during their vows like I was openly weeping I couldn't because they were lovely. They were just really pretty and I couldn't couldn't keep it together and it was embarrassing but you know. Is what it is ah but yeah, it also super harrowing when I'm like with my partner who's going through a particularly tough time and is in a dark place or a deep depression like I can stay out of that place but it definitely makes it really hard not to because I my like I can feel every inch of my body and bone. 42:35.73 Matt Feeling What she's feeling as she's going through whatever it is and so it can be that kind of thing to where it just kind of drags me into a place that maybe I don't even mentally want to go to but I just I can I relate and feel it so strongly that it kind of just pulls me there. 42:47.14 Jala Right? right? and I've worked really hard over the years to try to be able to turn it off when I can and that works to varying degrees sometimes it works and sometimes I'm crying about the dumbest thing because. 43:04.75 Jala I'm just feeling the feels of whatever like whatever um, has happened during that day. Whatever everybody else is feeling and whatever like around the people around me or just anything anything you know large events in the world like I I feel feelings about everything all the time. So. My plant You know's so whatever. But yeah, um I Think what's what I I want to talk about a little bit is the effective empathy the one that is about responding to other people's emotions appropriately I feel like. 43:41.17 Jala Especially if you're an empathetic person who you tend to be able to read people pretty well and this that in the other sometimes it can be hard to be able to do something about that like you can feel those feelings but like you have to have some kind of um, ah prior Awareness. A lot of times to be able to respond to that person's emotions if they are in need of something in the way that they need it because not everybody needs the same things. So um, that is kind of a trickier thing and that that makes it a little bit more challenging So Metic empathy like if it's if it's like. And but you know the feeling that you feel when you ah are one with the crowd of people around you and that kind of thing that is something that I think is pretty common. Um, that's but to what degree like obviously that's going to be different for everybody and what kind of a crowd and in what kind of situations that happens. You know is also yeah up for debate like for me when if I go to a live and I'm at like a concert and I'm in the pit or whatever and we're all doing whatever we're doing like I I will feel the most empathy with everybody and feel the most one with the crowd in that situation when music is involved. Um, not as much if it's if it's certain other types of things like I don't feel one with everybody at a baseball game because I don't care about baseball. But but you know um I can still feel those feelings to a degree but I'm also aware that I'm separate. 45:16.17 Jala If that makes any sense. 45:19.60 Desiree So affective empathy it to me can really come down to um, just asking a question of the person saying do you need advice or support in this moment. 45:34.55 Desiree So Even not necessarily trying to do that guesswork of what they're feeling why they're feeling asking them what they need in that moment to be able to provide that. So really, you are having to make your needs subservient. To theirs because you might just be chomping at the bit to give them advice because you know exactly what would fix this for them and if they're like I just need to vent I Just need to get this out being able to push down your urge to give that advice and say all right. I'm I've got space laid on me, give it to me. Um, so that to me is a key of affective empathy being able to meet people where they are and that responding appropriately is dependent upon them telling you what the appropriate response is right. 46:30.80 Matt Yeah, that's something that I've spent most of my adult life learning to do um while having a lot of emotional intelligence and empathy I also have a superhero complex and I fully acknowledge that I have it I want to fix everything I want to save everyone. 46:45.79 Matt Ah, you Nick you were talking about this a little bit earlier too and like it's one of those things where my partner who is lovely had to like help me learn to ask first and not just recognize the problem. Go I Know how to fix this here. You just got to do this and Because. My Heart's in the right place. But if they just want to vent or they need a moment or they know what to do they just need to complain a lot of that is super aggressive and overwhelming. Um and like I'm much better at it now but I still have this moment where I have to like stop and think and take a breath because I just want to. 47:18.14 Matt To fix everything I don't like the people that I like to be suffering or or in pain and so like if I think I have the answer I'm like oh ok, well here's the answer. You just got to do this and turns out folks don't like that if they especially if they need a moment to vent or they want to just kind of take a private moment and so. 47:33.49 Matt You know I'm much better at it now. But I definitely had to learn to do that. 47:37.51 Jala Right? And I what I try to do in those kinds of situations because um I yeah I have variously been all over the spectrum of of responses. You know to what I am what I am picking up from other people. But what I try to do in that situation is again to kind of like while they are talking to me empathize with how they feel opening up to me because there have been times where I have opened up to someone else and I just need to vent and they just started giving me advice and how that felt to me. And using that moment to say oh but I don't like that when someone is doing that and all I need to do is just get this off my chest I just want them to listen like you don't need to tell me how to fix this because I'm I'm aware I just need to get the emotions out you know and understanding that. And in using that moment to ah you know, reflect again, you know, reflect a second time not just on the situation that's bothering them. But also that moment with you. You know that's that's really I think for the secret sauces for that and. Asking questions also comes into the cognitive empathy the ability to understand someone's response to a situation and what they may be thinking. Ah what I find myself doing a lot in these kinds of situations where like ah the person that I'm talking to they have feelings but they also operate in a more cognitive. 49:03.40 Jala Form where like they are are thinking through things a little bit more and everything. Um, sometimes when people are are in a state of of high emotion. They can't put the words together someone who is a little bit more um cognitive in in how they process things. Have those words and can verbalize it Better. So um, when I'm talking to somebody who is a little bit more on the the cognitive processing side. Ah, it's a situation where like I will say you might you know is it that that you feel X and I will. Question it or are you thinking blah or what are you thinking and let them fill in the blank. You know, Ah, either way depending upon how much they're willing to open up at that moment. Ah the yes or no question or the open ended question could be the right Choice. So um. You know, just kind of reading them and then trying to turn it around and let them tell me rather than you know, ah doing the the superhero fly in because I definitely have been on that that side of things a lot as well. 50:07.70 Desiree Um, so that piece of being able to say it seems you might be experiencing this that was caused by this is that accurate. Yes, or no that is. 50:21.42 Desiree Doing that empathetic work of letting them know that you're trying to connect with them and it's also giving them the agency to say no actually that's not what's going on. But then you've got that door to open to say oh you know that you know that was just my perception. What are you feeling? tell me more about that. That's a lot of the work that I've done through professional development training seminars on nonviolent communication at my University rebranded compassionate communication that idea of every thing that we experience. Every time we're upset every time we're going through something bad. It's pain caused by an unmet need so trying to identify you know someone who didn't get a promotion. Well what need did they have Why are they upset about not getting that. Were they you know, needing that financial stability were they needing recognition What hurt are they experiencing caused by what unmet need and so that's a great way to try and empathize with somebody is by just asking them is this what you're feeling and then letting. Being open to them saying Nope That's not it at all, you've completely misread the situation and again doing that own internal work to not have your feelings hurt by them saying Nope You've misread me completely. Yeah. 51:41.65 Nick Fakhoury Do you think the people in Accurate or or folks who do work in academia right now are good at that. Do you think that largely a lot of professors who are your you know peers are are able to engage in that type of compassionate empathy. 51:57.30 Desiree Um, ah no, oh not at all. Um I'm a well I'm a staff member but I also teach and I'm also a Ph D student. So I've got a little bit in all the different worlds. 52:10.44 Desiree And the professional developments are targeted primarily at Staff. We do have some faculty who come to them I think a lot of faculty are not great at empathy even though especially perhaps the ones who actually. Study empathy and that might come from empathy fatigue which we can get to a little bit later I think in our notes Um, but that's something I've had my students tell me right I start every single class period with just asking them. How are you all doing I've had students cry because. 52:45.42 Desiree They've been at this university for however, many weeks now and no one has asked them how they are and just trying to connect with them on that person to person level. That's really all everyone is seeking. We're seeking connection of some kind and a lot of people don't know how to ask. For that connection or haven't done the work themselves to even figure out why they're seeking connection. What they're wanting to connect with. But yeah, no I think in general academics are great about thinking about empathy. They're great about talking about it about writing publishable papers about it. And not the best at doing it. 53:24.22 Jala Right? right? Knowledge is only part of the battle. It's not by the long shot. The biggest part. So yeah, that kind of secways into there are some challenges to being empathetic including that empathy fatigue. Which desray already mentioned that refers to the exhaustion you may feel both emotionally and physically after repeatedly being exposed to stressful or traumatic events This can make you feel numb or powerless and you may isolate yourself and have a lack of energy this particularly is concerning. In long-term situations such as being a caregiver either professionally or personally and then also there is empathic distress which can arise when an empath absorbs too much emotional negativity which causes stress response and can lead to avoidance coping and other systems. Ah, other symptoms of direct trauma as well as health issues if it becomes chronic So ah, empathetic people like say for example, an empathetic person living in you know the hood is going to have empathic distress because. 54:37.86 Jala There's a lot of stuff going On. You know every day for Minorities. You know people of color. So um, you know like that is a situation where that empathic distress can lead to avoidance coping or other types of trauma and it's not even direct trauma to them. It is just around them and that is enough to impact them in such a way and you know that can impact them and that so directly that when you come across someone Even if you're like oh but you're Fine. You never had this Well you know like. As a ah group of people as a ah neighborhood. You know? Ah, there was this neighborhood trauma you know like localized trauma to an area and anybody who is empathetic is going to pick up on that especially and feel that especially deeply. But yeah that empathy fatigue. That's also. Part of why you can get tapped out if you're like too Social. You're too Invested. You're too too in the middle of everything all the time and you do need sometimes to just step back and refill and recharge how about. But. 55:44.14 Desiree That I was just going to say that's a phenomenon that is experienced a lot in any sort of like you mentioned caregiver role I see it a lot in um, first responders for sure or people who do volunteer work for. 55:54.32 Jala First responders. 56:02.26 Desiree Animal rescues things like that I'm connected to a couple different animal sanctuary rescue things and that is super prevalent in that community. You just see the worst of the worst day in day out. These animals are dependent on you literally for their lives. You can't take a vacation. You can't sleep. You know 6 hours a night. You've got to keep going and to a certain point like jealous said you're going to be tapped out and unable to pour from an empty cup and so doing that balance work of sustaining yourself so that you can. Continue to give back to whatever cause it is. That's important to you is vital to being able to be there long-term and. 56:49.70 Matt Yeah, totally. Ah, both of these also are very the modern incarnation of them is doom scrolling right or getting involved in like social media and we can all agree that social media is pretty much a nightmarish wasteland at this point. Ah, but. 57:03.27 Matt We all still kind of engage with it on some level or another unless you're someone who has no social media in which case god bless you because like I don't know how but as someone who has too many things that they're doing I don't know how else to scream out to for people to check them out but like especially considering current events now as of when we're recording and just things going on in the world. It's like it's very easy. To scroll stories scroll twitter scroll even Tiktok and like just take in every emotional or or harmful or anything. That's that's coming out and it's why during large great moments of tragedy tragedy tragedy I can speak I swear ah like. Especially in ah in a particularly horrible news cycle like you're told often to take breaks and for an empath empathic person especially like seeing horrible things in the news even just all day long for one day can be overwhelming and make you burn out and it's why I often get frustrated and push back at the people on social media saying. You have to speak up. You have to say something on social media because for one a lot of them are echo echo chambers and like yes you have influence but also like you don't know anyone on social media anything. Ah but also secondly, it's just like know the important engagement places are a person to person. 58:20.85 Matt Or in-person groups or protests or whatever else like the internet. Yes, you can share information and spread awareness for a lot of things which is definitely true, but it's not the only place and you're not required to do it. You know I like for example, I have a bunch of twitters for my different podcasts. None of them have an obligation to tweet about. A presidential race or things going on you can and you should talk about it if you have an audience who relies on you to share. But there is no requirement because it's just social media. It's not the same like if I were Ryan Reynolds there might be some level of requirement right. Because he's got a lot of influence and he's got a lot of people. He can talk to but like someone with you know a hundred followers or who or you know creates indie content I feel like the obligation is less because like you may need to retreat you may need a break. You may not be able to engage in that way. You know there may be other ways that are healthier to engage or that you can and again I'm not saying you shouldn't I'm just saying these people these armchair experts who are like you have to get involved. You have to talk about it in all these places I just find it hard to agree, especially when as an empathic person I hit that fatigue and distress wall. Pretty easily if I'm overly inundated with a lot of that stuff which is easy to be in those places. 59:40.66 Jala Right? right? So there's a couple of things I want to add to that just kind of talking broadly about social media. So ah, one of the things that I most recently read was a book called radical belonging by Dr Lindo bacon and they talk about in their book. A. Whole lot of really important stuff and it's kind of like ah probably one of the absolute best books that I've read this year and I've read over 100 at this point. So even in the last several years. So ah I recommend for me but 1 of the things that was pointed out in that book is. You know you need to kind of take a self-reflection of your feed on your social media. Ah because a lot of us will just like you know, end up following a bunch of people and then they're just there and and whatever and then they're just there forever. Um, but that ends up leading to stuff like doom scrolling. Um, if you. go through your list of people and go through your list of posts and stuff and if you see stuff on there and you're like okay ah how do I feel every time this person posts what? what are they posting? How do I feel about it. Is it a good or a bad thing. Ultimately, what are you taking away from this if it's good. Keep it if it's bad. Maybe you need to either mute them for a little while or maybe just unfollow them. You know, just get them out of there because that's going to lead you to do that doom scrolling. So ah, that's 1 thing now. Of course if you have something like you have media outlets and things like that. Then yes, you're going to get kind of whatever coming at you. But. 01:01:16.11 Jala Um, you know you can actively choose who it is that you're following and what you're putting into your feed like my feed on Instagram is almost all entirely cute animals and I go there to see cute animals and friends and that's what's there and my Twitter is pretty much is like art, cute animals. And then like other other podcasting folks and stuff like that like that's that's all that's there I don't have a lot of bad stuff on any of my social you know social media feeds because I'm constantly practicing social media hygiene and going through that list and. Excising. Whatever I don't need to be seeing because I don't have enough of me to go around to feel about everybody's tweet. The other thing I wanted to say is that ah one of the books that I read this year I can't tell you which one I've read a lot of books ah was saying that because social media is. People in you because you can put your thoughts out there on the internet people feel that they are obligated to do so no, you're not you know, just like you said Matt no, you're not you do not have to put your opinion about every last thing on the planet that happens out there on the internet you can exist without doing that. You can just yes, actually yeah for sure for sure and um, definitely there. There have been times say and not currently that I know of um, but in the past where I have said a thing on the internet you know and then you know. 01:02:27.52 Nick Fakhoury It's quite preferable if you if you don't do that. Actually it might go a long way. 01:02:46.38 Jala Little known to me somebody is going through a thing and then it ends up hitting them just in such a way that they feel upset or bad or whatever about whatever it is that I just said um you know and usually it's like it might be like an inspiring quote that I think is inspiring but to somebody else. It's It's actually. You know this horrible thing and this is the reason why and then we end up having a whole conversation which is very beneficial to my growth but I still hurt that person without meaning to blah Blah Blah. So like um just being aware that whatever you put out on the internet is being read By. God and everybody it is going to be there basically forever and you know, um think about like how that can be taken by other people you know like you you can't avoid hurting people sometimes like posting in in inspirational quote is not. You know a thing that ah is is always going to be like seen the same way by everybody that doesn't mean that I can't post it. But I also have to post it with the awareness of what you know potentially could happen and that I respond to what information I am provided back. You know appropriately right. So um, having that empathy after the fact even if in the moment you know I can't know how it's going to be taken. You know. 01:04:09.21 Nick Fakhoury Yeah that's um I think that to a certain degree people if if the conversation is shifting more towards social media like I I want to be as careful as I can with my words here just because I don't want to you know, purposely offend anybody or or you know. Obviously create any type of negative feelings around this conversation but I genuinely do think and this has been said a lot by other people not just me but I feel like the way that kind of similar to what has been said a couple of times here with with a lot of people who are in followings or in social media circles. Um, they become echo chambers. And unfortunately a lot of the culture that's on both Instagram and or Twitter and or whatever social media platform you choose to engage in a key and even be in Discord um can result in like toxic online spaces even if it wasn't intended to it's just the the. Either the experiences that maybe some or very predominant members of your social media circle are going through can become unfortunately ah you know it can it can make those spaces not feel as good as others. Um, and I've experienced that in some circles that I've been in and. You know obviously I know other people who have personally experienced that as well. Um, but I also think just in general um people are really these days more than anything else, especially now we're in 23 they're looking for reasons to get mad at you online. They're looking for reasons to be upset. 01:05:38.41 Nick Fakhoury Um, about everything and sometimes that's one hundred percent justified and sometimes whatever their personal experience where they're going through life. At this point you know they have every right if you understand the context of their life or understand the context of their experience. You know it's it's justified for them to be upset and then otherwise it's kind of what we've described here earlier either. Ah. Um, people who are arm armchair activists or folks who don't necessarily engage in social media with good or positive or wholesome intentions people who are not engaging in empathetic ways online and so it's I love what you were saying there jalla about being very um. Purposeful about excising and cleaning up your your social media following and and the the type of accounts you engage in I've recently had to do that a lot with Twitter ever since. Ah, good ol' Elon took over and just like blocking ads stuff on there or just blocking accounts that I thought. Had no application to the reason why I was on that platform in the first place. Um, and it and it kind of it's hard living in like postmodern ah social media spaces because I think I don't know if you will either all agree with me or not but I feel like ever since I was in high school. We've seen. These spaces change from positive communities to being negatively influenced either artificially or organically um, because of the way that people either traumated up on social media or. 01:07:03.99 Nick Fakhoury They share things that they're not supposed to or they share things um in ignorance and I think we've definitely seen a lot of that here lately especially surrounding current events. 01:07:10.78 Matt Yeah I mean I can give a nonserious goofy example to this just to lighten it a little bit but like it's why I don't engage in Fandoms as much as I used to on the same level because it's that exact thing you're talking about like I used to love the doctor who community and I still love doctor who but like everyone. 01:07:30.27 Matt You know, dumping on an on a new doctor casting or being sexist racist. Whatever or just being really stupid saying oh I hate this about the show. Anyone who likes the show is an idiot like broad um painting with a broad brush and you know it's the same with the Star Wars like I I like I've admitted in many circles. 01:07:49.77 Matt If It's Star Wars I like it doesn't matter what it is could be the worst trite written piece of garbage I Still enjoy it and want to enjoy it and when someone's posting online constantly in your circles I hate this anyone who likes this is an itty. You don't know what good stuff is blah blah blah it just I take that to heart and I don't want to and so I don't engage anymore. And it's like a very nerdy and less important example of a thing that's very real for other things in other communities that start really nice or meant to be really supportive and then either due to bad actors or people with Artterior Motives or people who are just only kind on the surface. It can grow into these fester and kind of. Negative spaces that only get worse because it's so impersonal right? It's easy to be terrible to someone else for some folks when they're behind a screen name because it dehumanizes that experience and it's it's going to get into some things that we're going to talk about more in a minute but like that dehumanization is like. 01:08:38.83 Nick Fakhoury Yep. 01:08:45.96 Matt Is just so it's so hard to push past that because people who think that way don't want to be empathetic. They want to use this mask of anonymity to be terrible and do and say terrible things and I see it more on social media than anywhere else. It definitely exists in other places but it's like. Most rampant on the internet I think for sure. 01:09:02.85 Nick Fakhoury And then some people do that consciously Some people actually do that because they're doing it with purpose as you said, bad actors and then some people are just reflexively doing that which I find most interesting because go ahead I know yeah, all yours. 01:09:07.87 Matt Right. 01:09:13.62 Jala So I wanted to say that something that I was thinking about while listening to everybody talk is that that kind of ah group group empathy thing that. Desiree was feeling in the you know space like physical space and everything that's also a thing that happens on the internet and people like it can happen for good or for bad so people rally together for a good cause you know, ah or whatever but they also. Rally together for a bad thing. They feel you know people see a meme that says this thing and you know, ah some false political thing and they'll look at it and then they'll react shoot from the hip react to that image react to the feeling that all the other commenters and all the other people are. Are reacting with and they're reacting you know with the group but it's online and they're doing that same thing where they're feeling the empathy of everybody else around them and everybody else is mad so they're mad and then it turns into like the snowball effect where it gets worse and worse and worse. And that's actually an empathy response that's happening there but it's simultaneously like they're also like a failure to do due diligence of research on the internet and you know we talk about that a lot in the internet and identity episode that came out last month as of the time this is record or you had to drop. Ah. 01:10:48.53 Jala And we talk about it there and we also talk about you know, like thats it's it's ah it's a rough situation because it's also dehumanizing that whatever like say. For example, if we're talking the current political situation. The stuff going on in Gaza things like that. So if we're talking about that. You know take for example, people are like oh yeah, you know and they they put some words on an image and that image is not even from the area that they are implying it is from and then they are putting their message and everybody's shooting from the hip and responding to this because they are trusting that this person that they follow that they really admire. You know is correct in what they're posting but they're not fact checking. They're not you know, doing their due diligence to make sure that the stuff that they're presenting is correct. They responded shooting from the hip looking at this thing and going. Oh my god and then throwing it out there for everybody else and then it spreads like wildfire because the social media goes everywhere all over the world. So you know it's it's this weird wave of empathy but at the same time like failure ah to empathize at you know. Which is wild but like I I kind of feel like that's the same kind of thing that has happened throughout the ages in situations. Where for example, you would have something like a lynching you know some people have fear and hatred and whatever of a person for whatever reason. 01:12:20.48 Jala Ah, and then a bunch of other people participate and if you ask them later like you know why did you do this thing. They don't have an answer. It's because they're in the heat of the moment and they're feeling the same thing as the group but they're also dehumanizing someone else in the process and so empathy can be good. Empathy can also be bad. You can get. Carried away with emotion and go to a dark dark place with it without thinking because you're you're responding emotionally to you know some stimulus around you so that's something that um I was thinking about and I was like oh that's a big bomb to Trump I got to talk about that. 01:12:59.21 Jala I Got I got to mention that um, but yeah also ah that kind of Segways. Okay first I should I should wait and say does anybody have any thoughts on that before I seggue into ah people not always being empathetic because. 01:13:12.24 Desiree I Would just add the things that all of y'all are talking about and I've never been more thankful for following almost exclusively cat content on the internet and not engaging because I very seriously took to heart when the internet was just becoming a thing as I was. 01:13:31.18 Desiree Coming of age and finally getting internet at the house. The oh things put out there stay there forever and being terrified by that. So um I am pretty much a ghost on the internet and find me in little bits here and there but very thankful for that at this point but everything you're talking about Jala is all based in. 01:13:50.49 Desiree Fear fear of losing something fear of not being seen as part of the group fear of being ostracized and so much of all of this comes down to that one very very basic but very primal emotion. Um, that's something that comes up it. Every semester my course on gender-based violence prevention. We talk about the ideas of fake news and urban legends or myths and how urban legends and myths are essentially cautionary tales that are repeated with this sort of good intent. To warn people to not do Xy or Z that fake news is spread to perpetuate victim blaming and things like that. But even victim blaming is inherently rooted in fear if I can identify what this person did that caused x I just. Can avoid doing that and not become a victim myself and so so much of this is about fear and self-preservation and that is essentially um, you know, kind of the opposite of empathy because you're so focused on yourself. And so just being able to open up that door a little bit to try and empathize with others could make you that active bystander that steps in and stops the negative interactions because you've done some of that reflection to be like hey wait. No, we've let this get out of hand or. 01:15:20.35 Desiree Did We fact, check this you know have a few trusted reliable Sources. You can go to that You know you can trust. To fact, check things before clicking that reshare or things like that can go a long way to those baby steps of doing that empathy work in a way that may not feel like it is doing empathy work. But it is. 01:15:39.54 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that is definitely a good point to further tie it like back into the quote unquote real world. Although um, an internet and identity episode. We talked about how the internet is a real world and is in and of itself as well. Ah, with our own. Separate identities and everything anyway, listen to that episode too. Um Nick or Matt do you have anything further to add on that before we move on to barriers to empathy. 01:16:07.92 Nick Fakhoury I don't. 01:16:11.10 Matt Um, nope. 01:16:11.97 Jala Cool Cool So barriers to empathy include cognitive biases which is when you are aware of your you're aware of a group and you're aware of your feelings about a group. You also have um biases that are you know internal biases. That you're not aware of that you have developed over time and you don't know why you're doing a thing but turns out you have a bias to or against you know some other group of people dehumanization and victim blaming other factors that can reflect. Ah, that that can affect whether you respond with empathy include how you perceive the other person how you attribute their behaviors What you blame for the other person's predicament your past experiences and expectations genetics. Socialization and of course neurodivergent can play a part in how you respond. So yeah, like how you perceive the other person you know, Um, how you attribute to their their behavior. So. In the the gender-based violence thing death that you were talking about that's primarily ah violence against women not always in all cases but oftentimes is ah so violence against women. You know how how does a man perceive this woman who says that she's been. You know. 01:17:37.47 Jala Ah, assaulted or Whatever. What are they blaming for that person's that woman's predicament and so on and so forth going down that whole list of of things that we just mentioned So um, that can really change whether or not someone is empathetic or not and we see that in those gender-based violence situations that. Ah, there is a lack of empathy because there isn't that putting themselves in the shoes of that person. There's a perception there deaths. 01:18:07.37 Desiree Yes, um, so the the empathy work from like the men's perspective. So the fear that's associated. There is more likely because that is unfortunately how we have to teach it men are predominantly. Going to be the perpetrators even though statistics tell us 94% of men will never rape. However, those that do will perpetuate between 5 and 6 time so they'll be repeat offenders so men are afraid of being targeted as you know. Oh you're going to accuse me of being a rapist and then women unfortunately are predominantly going to be the survivors of gender based violence. That's sort of how we teach those scenarios so men fear. Whatever repercussions come along with those accusations being ostracized from the community. Being called out by instructors or people that they respect potentially not getting letters of recommendation if they're you know trying to go into other things and are accused of xyor z behavior so it really all does come down to that fear. And fears based in losing something for the people who are going to be victims. Those stakes are so so much higher. But there's still fear on the male side of what they could Lose. Um, so it's harder for them to empathize with. 01:19:39.30 Desiree Women and you know that can all come back to the toxic masculinity and things like that that you have also done a very exceptional job of covering because men have that idea of we are always seen as the perpetrators. Never the victims. So If. We are Assaulted. No One's going to believe us and that idea of believing too like that is part of our training of being active Bystander. You may have never had someone share this with you that they've been assaulted something like that. If. You're a really empathetic person. You might be in a position where someone's going to disclose something like that to you take all the pressure off of yourself all you really have to do is say I believe you I believe you? That's just so impactful to that person I believe you that takes the pressure off. 01:20:31.91 Desiree And then have that conversation about you know what do you need from this tying back to our training yourself to be empathetic by asking what the other person needs in that moment. Sure it can be in those high stakes Gender Race Violence moments high stakes pain things like that. Just also in that general day to day. What are you feeling? What are you needing in this moment. 01:20:57.89 Jala Right? And I think that's something that if we have some kind of a an argument or something with someone that we love or even if somebody we don't love. Um. We have some kind of a falling out with someone but especially if it's somebody that we care about even we still find ourselves in the situation where um, we are feeling what we're feeling and we feel outrage or whatever we feel and we want the other person to see our perspective. And it takes some working through of of that initial emotion before we can get to that point where we can then turn it around and go what are you feeling and like the fact that you point out desirere. The fact that some you know the guys who are. Listening to this woman who says that you know she was assaulted or whatever. Um, they have automatically like this internal bias against what she's saying and they don't. Understand why they don't they don't want to admit to themselves that they have this fear or this whatever. But this is what's going on in actual fact. So even if you were to ask them. Why don't you believe her or whatever they're not going to give you you know the actual answer but you're 100% right? and like. 01:22:13.71 Jala Part of that empathy work is like even the people who are perpetrating bad bad things are feeling away for some kind of a reason and like being able to understand and suss out what that reason is can kind of like in this case, it's not going to help us necessarily go and fix the problem because the problem is so. Massive You know toxic masculinity and the men's mental health state more generally things like that That's going to be like a massive undertaking to try to to revolutionize that but it can at least give you some clues as to how to approach that person. To make them start to feel empathy for someone else. So um, yeah, we'll we'll talk a little bit. Yeah, yeah, well. 01:22:55.75 Desiree And for sure everyone has feelings. Yeah, and just identify like trying to identify even if you never ask them if you do that mental exercise yourself of thinking. What. Were they getting out of this What made them think this was a good thing to say yeah were they trying to get X reaction just doing that a little bit of internal work. Even if you never get up that gumption to go and ask them What made you say that trying to you know, decrease your own emotional level. 01:23:31.58 Desiree So that it doesn't become something you have to ruminate on and that further damages your mental health that type of work can also help you process and maybe help you let go and be like Nope that's on them. That's not on me right. 01:23:45.33 Jala Right? right? And in those situations where ah we are responding you know ourselves in a bad way to things that are say for example, looping back to social media we are having that moment where. We are responding badly to the stuff that's on social media and doom scrolling and that's why they say like step away like what what happens if you are an empathetic person and you have some kind of a disagreement with your your you know significant other your best friend your mom. Whatever whatever,, whoever's close to you? um. What happens in those situations you try to work out those emotions separately at least I do I try to work out my emotions separately before I go to talk to that person. You know to work things out. You know, um. And again that you have to get through that emotional part and you have to um, think about that and work through that before you can start to see from the other person's perspective as Well. If you ah approach them in the moment when you're feeling the feels even if you think oh yeah, I've got it under Wraps. You don't you don't and it's going to come out. And you're you know you're going to feel your feels and then it will turn into a big mess of ah a conversation rather than you know, Ah what it should be so ah, the same kind of thing kind of applies to social Media. You need to take a step back from that too to feel your feels or do whatever take a breather in in you know, like. 01:25:10.47 Jala Get away from it for a moment. You know just have your time work through how you're feeling and then you know like you can't have a conversation and like resolve that situation but that so that act of stepping away is going to help you keep you from feeling further. Damage you know from those exchanges or from that not exchange just like absorption of negativity that you're getting so so yeah, from ah, radical belonging that book that I mentioned earlier I have a couple of quotes. 1 of which is our ability to empathize with others is also influenced by our perception of whether we belong to the same group. However, it does appear that this responsiveness is learned and that with exposure to other cultures. The brain can become more culturally attuned and ah in the. Framing of this book. Dr. Lindo Bacon is a genderqueer jewish person and they talk about you know their experiences where they they openly say in the book like I I have an internal bias against black people and I realize this and so like. I'm trying to you know, expose myself to more you know black people so that I can get past that you know and and things like that. So um, you know the the more exposure and this is something that I'm finding also when it comes to other. Um. 01:26:45.72 Jala Other topics that I've covered this year like fat phobia for example, ah, you know one of the things that said there is you know following fat creators you know fat activists people who are trying to decolonize and change the. The standard of of expectation for beauty and that's that in the other follow people who are in this group that you you know don't know anything about or don't have you know or have these weird feelings about or whatever. Follow some people. And in being exposed to them over time you become more comfortable and then you know like you you start to break down those barriers the the othering that happens there and this is the same thing that I think was also recommended in some of the other episodes about inclusion and stuff when it comes to. You know like your other internal biases against different races or this that or the other like whatever it is that your your internal biases are against you know and when we were talking disability. You know, follow disabled people. Follow disabled activists see how they're living and. What concerns they have and that humanizes them because that lack of of knowledge is a way in which you unconsciously dehumanize other people. 01:28:09.57 Desiree And so that's you know I I love all the episodes that you've done on those things the diversityty equity inclusion belonging definitely was an episode that covered a lot of that stuff. Um the ones on disability and things like that and it. Comes back to this idea of what you're saying dehumanizing somebody because it's alien to you? Why is it alien to you because you have that fear of the other and so rather than you know, waiting to be othered by someone else. You are the person doing the othering. That's also where a lot of these racist and homophobic and whatever insert the the ism these beliefs and thoughts and things that come out. It's out of that fear of the other it's out of pain and people who. Feel pain are going to then turn that around and inflict it on others before more pain can be inflicted upon them. So this morning I was on a seminar call for my phg program and we had a speaker who was talking about his work and 1 of his early. Video games that he actually developed was ah some ah you had to go through Darfur as a refugee and go through this camp and talk to npcs and all of this and a goal of that was to develop empathy for refugees by playing a game as a refugee. 01:29:43.56 Desiree And then talking to other people that were part of that culture part of that Community. So a part of developing that empathy is that cultural exposure that developing a cultural humility acknowledging things like no whiteness is Problematic. You're not a bad person. If you're white. But if you're white you have privilege that you then need to reflect upon and see how the rest of the world is experiencing you as a white person and the things you benefit from as a white person so much of that is all tied back to empathy and. Thinking how you process and experience things and then being able to apply that to other people. 01:30:26.00 Jala Right. 01:30:28.14 Nick Fakhoury Yeah I really like what you were saying there about the the idea of being able to apply that to other people and being able to practice that and understanding your privilege, especially when it comes to experiencing whiteness and being a white person or a person who is white in passing. Um. I think like it kind of does boil down to unfortunately at the very least in America we live in a very capitalist forward society and the idea of capitalism is undermining. It is antithetical to empathy. Um and I think like our so the the society and we I think obviously. Jalla you covered ah grind culture earlier in ah in another topic if I'm not mistaken I don't know I had that has that episode come out. Okay, okay, that's what I thought but um, but it's it's this idea of um, having having to to ah interface in a society that is only geared towards. 01:31:23.27 Nick Fakhoury What you are able to produce and being a an asset as a means to production in in the society and and people's understanding of usefulness that also plays into an empathy in a really deep way and um I will say that it is my personal belief that it is the powerholders. The stakeholders. 01:31:42.67 Nick Fakhoury In America in the us and even globally beyond the us. Um, you know classism is a planned thing. Ah you know during my undergraduate study. We learned about the matrix of oppression in the pillars of white supremacy that continue to pervade in our society today and they talk about how systemically classism has been used. Um, ah tactically by people who hold power um throughout various societies and and in various cultures in order to um, not only create. Um this diaspora of of resources or rather the separation of resources between people and cultures but also make sure that. The different classes who are not in the 1% are so concerned with each other that they're not focusing on the real problem which is inherently the one. Um and I think that that perfades into like social behaviors and social interactions and how people today it manifests in people largely being unempathetic. To another's lived experience. Um, and that that continues on into obviously people you know gender gender studies. Um, and and studies on on racism and oppression and everything that's been involved with that. It all kind of does boil down to empathy, but it's been affected. By people who are in power today I think it's important to understand that um that it's not necessarily all in our control and the culture that we live in has been severely impacted by the people who are remaining power so that's that's my rant on that my little soapbox moment I don't know if you all agree or not. 01:33:15.67 Jala I That segues I had my little hand raised and in the recording thing. Ah so yeah, like that seggues into the other quote from radical belonging that I pulleded which is ah one of the strongest themes emerging from research examining social class and emotion. 01:33:33.00 Jala Is that lower class individuals score more highly on measures of empathy this plays out in how people treat others in a series of 4 studies for example, researchers found that low class individuals were more likely to help others than their high class counterparts. Ah. I was thinking about this and I was listening to you Nick and and talking about capitalism in this country and this that and the other and I was thinking about american exceptionalism and you know like the american drive towards individuality and not relying on other people being self-reliant right. Ah, all of that is antithetical to ah empathy if you are self-reliant and you don't need other people. You've never been in a situation where you've needed other people and so you don't know what it feels like to be in need and blah blah blah it kind of goes from there and so. 01:34:27.92 Jala You know when you think about that and then you think about you know how the the government is and this that and the other like then you're just like wow yeah, it all makes perfect sense I don't like it but wow so Matt you've been quiet for a while I want to give you a moment's talk. 01:34:45.87 Matt Notes all right? Um I mean I think that a lot of this also stems from like you think about how certain political parties are able to gain steam even though they are openly discussing how they're going to hurt the people who vote for the most It's because people don't like to be hurt. 01:35:02.59 Matt Don't like to be left out and can be defensive really easily. You know it's this idea of when you say someone's being racist. They're insulted instead of saying oh my god how is I being racist? What did I do please tell me because to them racist is a condition terminal that they will be till they die and guess what it's true because if you engage in engage in racist sexist homophobic behavior you are in that moment being sexist racist homophobic. But that doesn't mean that you will always be you can learn. You can change you can grow with so many people I will specifically target straight white people. Think that if they are called any of these things that it is a label they will carry to their grave and that they can never learn to do or be better and then instead of being empathetic and taking into their heart and going. Oh my god I'm so sorry I did that what can I do differently? What did I say how did I act. They go well all right screw you if I'm that then I'm going to be that and I'm gonna lean into it or I'm gonna be offended or I'm going to take it personally like how dare you it's like this white racism that we hear going around which is not a thing you can't be racist to white people. You cannot be racist to the majority you know, just like you can't be. Straightist or you know people being Elon Musk being offended being called Cis like it's an insult when it's actually a scientific term. It's the same thing. It's this idea that you can you as the majority or the person in power can be insulted or can be the target of these things when you can't and. 01:36:31.11 Matt Instead of accepting and being empathetic. A lot of these people like Elon Musk for example I have no problem picking on him just leans into it and wears it like a badge of honor right and continues to push and be terrible instead of learning and growing and it's become a brazen thing that. Since the trump era and beyond has empowered people because whether you like or hate Trump and I feel it's safe to say most of us here hate him. He proved that you can be. You can be ignorant and you can be ah confident and that will empower other people to do the same. Right? because you show them that it's ok even if it's not and I think we live in a world now where it's so much easier for people because of capitalism because of the way that the Us specifically because this is where we all live is so broken people feel empowered to do and say and be terrible. Um, you know it was I am a jewish human who am living in a country where while we while it is important to talk about the current conflict and how an entire race of people are about to be wiped out people are using that as an excuse to also then talk about eradicating all the jews a thing that people have tried to do before and failed and yet. Still want to do now and it gives like just because you're being empathetic towards one one thing doesn't mean you're excused from any biases or um or um, dehumanization dehumanization that you do in the process right doing the right thing. 01:38:07.37 Matt Morally doesn't give you permission to also still do moral wrongs in the process and it makes a lot of these issues very complicated and very upsetting other than the base understanding that we all share that you shouldn't be wiping out innocent people and killing in innocents that kind of thing but like. The minute you try and talk to someone about it, especially someone who holds deep to their beliefs or where they're from or whatever it can really explode and it it's not just ignorance though. Ignorance fueled a lot of it I think in this country especially but it's a lot of different things and it's all of these things that kind of wrap together that make being. Like being empathetic is so important and having empathy is so important yet So many people in so many situations, especially as the result of like social media. We said before and just just life in general and capitalism and all of these other things kind of push people away from it or teach people the wrong lessons because of what the ah. I Guess I can wrap up by saying often. The loudest people are the worst people right? like racist sexist Homophobes Anyone like that are often the loudest the most indignant and the ones who have the least um ah, hesitance to speak out and say stuff. Things we've all been talking about before Nick mentioning you know, feeling bad or not wanting to upset people like empathetic people feel that way people who aren't Empathetic. Don't give a shit about hurting other people and will say and do horrible things and it's why I think empathy empathy is so important but often is overlooked is because. 01:39:40.56 Matt It takes so much more work to empathize and to be kind and to take a moment and not just result like be impulsive and cruel and all these other things. 01:39:51.12 Jala Right? right? Absolutely so I want to talk a little bit about the science behind empathy and then because we have just underlined how important it is to be empathetic I want to talk about how we can work to be more empathetic. So ah, let me get through the science real quick. Section neurologically speaking studies have shown that multiple areas of the brain activate and someone feels empathy including the anterior cingulate cortex and the anterior insula the activation of mirror neurons in the brain. Plays a part in the ability to mirror and mimic the emotional responses that people would feel if they were in similar situations. So that's that's your ah you know brain brain study. Yes, one one there. But ah, emotionally the philosopher Adam Smith suggested that it allows us to experience things that we might never otherwise be able to fully feel so empathizing with someone who is in a group that is not your identity group allows you to. Kind of feel a little bit of what they're feeling. It's not going to be of course. Ah 1 to 1 or anything like that by any stretch of the imagination but you get a taste you get a moment of of understanding and clarity of what that other person might be going through and sociologically. 01:41:14.85 Jala Herbert Spencer proposed that empathy served in adaptive function and aided in the survival of the species via empathy's benefits to social relationships which are for example, promoting warmth closeness forgiveness and reduced conflict. So ah yeah. How can we learn to become more empathetic and instead of just ah, reading off all the notes myself I'm going to start doing around Robin so round Robin we're just going to go from the top met tell us tell us about mindfulness. Whatever you want. 01:41:49.38 Matt Sure do you want me to ah read the power. Ah so I mean practicing mindfulness is obviously really important in developing mindfulness. Even even if you start by being more mindful of your own emotional state. You can. 01:41:51.95 Jala You You could read, you can prepare for whatever you want to do up to you. My friend. 01:42:05.58 Matt Naturally extend that this practice to other people by doing a bunch of different things like asking questions like this is stuff. We talked about before a bit right? like asking questions is so important really listening. It's it's taking a minute and it's taking in what's around you. It's a lack of impulsivity right. Ah, being reactionary being impulsive while is important in its moments and is is part of the human experience is the antithesis to being mindful and being more empathetic because if you are reacting without listening or taking the information then you are not accounting for everything that a situation is beholden to. And you can't always do that. But I think in the moments where you have the space to do so you always should um I am going to toss it to Nick who can help me talk about this. 01:42:53.76 Nick Fakhoury Yeah I think that you know when whenever you do practice mindfulness which I for the listeners and not always good at but I definitely think I I inherently do defaults to practicing mindfulness. Um, it can come. From doing a lot in it kind of Mindfulness does often go hand in hand with self-care. Um, which I think both in tandem can lead towards you either practicing empathy or embodying yourself as a more empathetic individual. Um, and I think that you know obviously. 01:43:12.49 Jala Right. 01:43:27.26 Nick Fakhoury It's an old saying you know think about walking a mile in someone else's shoes you imagine yourself in someone else's situation. Um, imagine yourself what you're going through take time do the hard work like Matt said because this is not easy. Um taking time to be introspective and think about these different aspects. Um, look at your own internal biases and then work to reflect upon them like jealous said follow creators that you normally wouldn't follow engage in these spaces which you would normally shy away from because it doesn't make you comfortable I think um, putting yourself in uncomfortable places often. Can lead towards practicing mindfulness which they can also in hand you know lead towards empathy but doing that at a regular interval and doing something stepping outside of your own box stepping outside of your own comfort zone exposing yourself to art exposing yourself to media. Um, that you would normally. Either not be interested at all or just absolutely ah dislike um and and being able to take a moment to step outside yourself to experience something like that can lead towards um you being you know, practicing mindfulness being a more mindful individual and and doing some more of that. 01:44:36.81 Jala Right? right? Tests tell us some stuff about mindfulness. 01:44:41.30 Desiree Sure so one of the concepts that I teach my students is adaptive leadership. So that's this idea that you can be a leader from any position. You don't need official title power or authority to do that. There's a whole set of practices that you can kind of go through for any given scenario that requires an adaptive solution and one of those is manage self so manage self means that you need to understand your own motivations for doing something. That's going to tie in really closely to this idea of mindfulness this idea of you know I've identified this problem going on. Why is it important to me that there is this solution. That's put into place. What is the intended impact that I'm hoping to have. Understanding that impact also means doing some of that reflective work on thinking through exactly what Matt and Nick were talking about these ideas of you know what might other people get from this. What might they experience if this happened. That to me is a big piece of mindfulness is that thing that you can do completely on your own just self-reflecting on why did I think this way why do I feel this way. Um, another sort of that internal piece is identifying your own biases. 01:46:12.73 Desiree So it's not an in you know you cannot stop yourself from having those instinctive reactions to things but you can reflect on why you reacted that way to Xy or z stimuli. If you make a judgment on somebody. You see walking down the street that you've never met before what made you think you I don't like that person and did it come down to they were a different race than you or they were. Disabled and that makes you uncomfortable because you secretly have a fear of becoming disabled yourself and you don't want to don't want to think about that. What is it? That's causing you to respond that way to people. Um, and so just doing a lot of that self-reflection. Work I think is incredibly valuable and like others have suggested engaging in new experiences so things that you may never have been exposed to before and part of that is knowing what you don't know you know we all tend to. Stay in our own lanes except for Jala who is in all the lanes all the time and incredibly impressive with this wide range of knowledges and experiences and expertise. You know most people like I like jazz and then they just listen to jazz their whole entire lives. 01:47:43.27 Desiree What maybe jazz adjacent music could be interesting to you find 1 creator find 1 artist read 1 book or a short story. Um, you know for a long time I didn't think that I didn't necessarily dislike science fiction. But it just took reading a couple of science fiction stories taking science fiction class and now I'm probably going to be on a board for a science fiction nonprofit institute you know you never know where these little tiny side journeys can take you so be open to all of these experiences. Because being open is how you're going to make these connections and really, that's again, what I think it comes down to is connecting because that's what we all want. We want to feel that sense of belonging when I teach diversity equity and inclusion my university adds a b for belonging on there. And that's that complete sense of feeling like you have a place you matter and hopefully empathetic people part of that goal is making space for other people to have that sense of belonging as well. 01:48:54.14 Jala Right. 01:48:56.46 Matt Yeah, it's like being an um, emotionally open person is like eating your vegetables and as an adult like it's a noble oversimplification. But it's true, right? Like as a kid is very easy to go ah that green thing I don't want to eat it and then you discover broccoli and how awesome it is a favorite. Ah, but like as a kid you look at it and go I don't know that doesn't look good I don't want to eat that. But when you try things you learn things and it's perfectly Also okay to like try broccoli and go oh that's not my taste I don't really like it. But you don't You won't know what you do or don't like until you try and it's really important with being emotionally open and available. Right? It's this you know, Jolly you've talked about this with toxic masculinity and other things being. It's not being okay to be emotional and that certain people shouldn't be emotional men shouldn't cry this whole thing I mean I solved that problem by not being a man anymore. But you know it's one of those things where. Um, the nonbinary joke for anyone following but you know ah it's It's this thing that like you,, there's no rules to how there there's understandings and there are guidelines to being an emotional person and how to be emotional, but there are no hard and fast rules other like other than you should be open right. 01:50:08.29 Matt That's the thing that can lead to all these other things and I think it's just so important for people to be open, not just about you know how they engage with things emotionally but just in life in general I think it's a better way to live. Ah, you know I spent many many years of my sort of pseudoprofessional video game career saying I hate first person shooters I hate horror games and now. Within these last few years I've played a ton of both of those things and really quite enjoyed them what unlocked it was realizing that also people who like horror are also scared shitless that that immediately meant me go oh I can be a coward and still like this thing but like you know in all seriousness like. If. You don't engage in those things like it's totally okay to engage in those things. Go no, they're not for me I tried but to say that you don't like those things when you don't even try which many people do about a lot of great many things you're cutting yourself off from what might be your next. Great. Love or the the thing that you're good at or how you could engage in life and I think broadly beyond just being an empath being open. New experiences and being open period will will help and it's not always easy and you know I am mostly an introverted person who wears an extroverted mask often but like still I've learned that I have extroverted moments and I can be an extrovert because I engaged in those things and tried new things and. Took a chance on stuff and I think that's so important not to put too fine a point on it. Not just with empathy but just in life in general. But for sure of course, especially with being trying to become a more empathetic person and being more mindful. 01:51:34.66 Jala Right? right? So I do want to say a couple of things. So first off one of the things that I want to say about mindfulness one of the important things to do is also to look for similarities instead of differences because. That sense of belonging and that person over there also belongs to the same group as me, you know the same category the same whatever it is that you you know you use in your head is to find the similarities to see those common points and use those rather than focusing on those differences but also. This being open It's great except 1 thing to keep in mind is that it is also really wearing because you have to be vulnerable to really open up and be like open-minded about. 01:52:24.11 Jala These people these experiences that you're not so sure about and it can be very scary. So um, ah, that's just that's part of why it is a challenge is because you are vulnerable and you know it is a scary thing for a lot of people. Especially if you know you're a person who. Um, has a history of of you know, a lot of destabilizing factors who really just seeks stability for example, um, it might be very hard for you because you want the sure bet you don't want to take a risk. So um, it's it's a different journey for everybody. And how it plays out is different and I've watched a lot of different people that I know over the years and how they've grown and changed and opened up and done that kind of self-work and you know it's a process that never ends right? So um, you know. Regardless of where you're at right now there is a way for you to start somewhere and any movement that you make towards um, being receptive is a good one to do I do have a couple of quick quotes I want to throw out there and then I'll throw it to deaths. Um, so Erika. Sullivan on Dear Skyler said don't be the reason someone goes to bed hating themselves and Blair Imani also from Dear Skyler this is a ah podcast that I just recently started listening to fantastic podcast. Check it out seriously ah 2 things you can't change. Anyone's mind. 01:53:58.90 Jala And Mutual respect is key and this one right here. That's something that people need to think about every time they post something on the internet or if they feel like they need to reply to something and put a comment on you know or sub tweetet or whatever they're doing 2 things you can't change. Anyone's mind and Mutual respect is key. If They are not Respecting. You don't waste your time if you don't respect them. Maybe do some self work because you know that that's that othering thing that's happening there. So at deaths. 01:54:28.25 Desiree So yeah, so I was just going to also expand a little bit more on that idea of risk like this work of empathy is a little bit risky because you are opening yourself Up. You are making yourself vulnerable. But that's also part of doing leadership work. Identifying What is the risk to me if I do this and chances are when you really dig down into it. The risk of doing this type of work especially being empathetic is going to be very minimal and it's not going to result in any real tangible harm. To you so that is also another way to try and overcome fear is by acknowledging. Okay, what would be the absolute worst case scenario if I had this conversation with this person if I went and did this if I expressed that. And when you find that Okay, there isn't a lot of risk there. You know that will be very um, helpful to you being able to do that process and also something I think I've brought up in every podcast. This idea that this is growth this is learning and. 01:55:43.64 Desiree Learning is meant to be uncomfortable. It's meant to be challenging yourself. It's meant to be pushing and stretching. It should never be painful and if it gets to that point of pain. That's where you can dial it back a little bit and go seek to refill your cup. But you know expect to be uncomfortable. Expect. To feel a bit awkward, especially if you're trying to do this empathy work for the first time and. 01:56:10.70 Jala That right right? So do we have any other wrap up thoughts about empathy or do we want to move on to the concept of emotional intelligence which is related but not the same thing. 01:56:25.71 Nick Fakhoury I'll find her to move on if everyone else is. 01:56:25.91 Jala So cool. Cool Let's do it So emotional intelligence Ei or Eq for emotional quotient is the ability to perceive interpret demonstrate control evaluate and use emotions to communicate with. 01:56:44.30 Jala And relate to others effectively and constructively this allows you to think before reacting heightens your self-awareness and deepens your empathy for others signs of emotional intelligence include ability to identify and describe what people are feeling self-confidence and Self-acceptance. An awareness of personal strengths and weaknesses the ability to let go of and accept responsibility for mistakes the ability to embrace change a strong sense of curiosity. Especially about other people showing sensitivity to the emotions of others. And the ability to manage emotions in challenging Situations. So Um I would say show of hands but we're not on video show of hands. So How many of you empathetic people feel like your emotional intelligence is maybe not as good as your empathy, you know, like ah some. 01:57:38.50 Jala Things a little bit more than others right? So um, some people who are really empathetic are just not really filled with much self-confidence or you know self-ac acceptptance. They're kind of self-loathing but then they are actually um, you know, like really really empathetic towards other people just they categorize themselves in this other box right. Ah, also they may not have the ability to let go of and accept responsibility for times that they make a mistake they might be able to do part of that they might be able to accept responsibility. But then the letting go is not the thing they use that as self-flagellation like I think this comes into. Like where you have other types of anxieties or other kinds of stressors. It can turn into like ah ah a super negative thing if you are are lacking in some of this emotional intelligence stuff I think emotional intelligence for a person who is empathetic. Is really where you come into play with that word called Grace Grace towards yourself grace towards other people. What do you? all? think. 01:58:43.74 Matt I mean I I would ah liken this akin to you're talking about folks from lower income lives and people who have less tend to be more empathetic I think also in my experience at least and I can only speak to my personal experience the more anxious. Depressed or nerd divergent. You are likely the more empathetic you are to ah I have found that the people who have confidence it comes from that thing of like if you feel confident and you think you're the shit. Why would you think about other people or worry about what they care or think of and so I think. A lot of though lack of emotional intelligence comes from a place of and it's not always It's not 1 to one but I think for me personally the fact that I grew up depressed or picked on or had a hard time emotionally as well and don't have a lot of self-confidence or self-acceptance. Makes me care about others because I don't want anyone else to feel the way I do like as if I'm my own worst enemy and I know how bad I can make me feel and so I don't want anyone else to feel that way. So I'm going to do whatever I can to help them and that kind of thing and I think it it took all it takes a lot of work and something I'm still working on to believe that what I do is of quality and worth. Talking about and that I am a person of importance and can have confidence while continuing to be empathetic. But I think it's only I can do that work now because I come from a place where I struggled with a lot of it. 02:00:10.56 Jala Right? right? And so it's funny that you're like people who you know if you're self-confident then you don't care about anybody else and I'm like but I'm so gone I don't think I did I not think about other people. 02:00:27.24 Jala But um, you know like everybody's Journey's a little bit different like I There was definitely a time when I I was not confident and I did struggle with that a lot and that. 02:00:41.18 Jala That's a lot of what my driving force is in some ways like I I do this podcast I do a lot of things that I do in order to make sure that people don't feel like they're alone because a lot of things that I went through in my life I had to deal with ultimately alone and so having that. In my past even though I'm not in the same situation now. Ah it still is my driving factor right? I still want to make sure that people feel included people feel like they belong Jaless Jolachine's place is a place where people are safe. You know that kind of a thing. And you know we're we're able to be vulnerable and open and discuss all these different topics and media that we love it. Whatever like everything on you know on the show in the server and so on and you know like I've in different ways and. In forms throughout my life I've been trying to make that place so you know, um, that's kind of been like my driving course I talked about that a lot on the um pursuing your passions episode from earlier in the year but um yeah so different people are in different places like ah what your strengths when it comes to emotional intelligence are maybe different than someone else's you know, um and a lot of it too is when you're empathetic. You also. 02:02:09.16 Jala We'll look at other people and also try to assess you know oh well, these people have these at least for me like when you're empathetic. You also have a tendency to see the good in people I think um, not all the time like if you're not actively. You know, um. Feeling empathy towards someone like say for example, Donald Trump you know I don't feel any empathy for that man. So you know I can't see the good in him. You know like that. That's just a ah bottom line there. But um, you know, ah when you feel empathy for people. You also tend to at least in my my case. See that good in other people and because you are are so filled with the goodness of other people like you look at yourself and you're not seeing your own shine and I think that's kind of part of where that comes from. 02:03:00.89 Nick Fakhoury Yeah, emotional intelligence is ah is a tricky thing. It's hard to measure I know for a fact. Ah, but we're we're going to get it a little bit into some of the tests that people have done to to figure it out, but it's ah it's a hard thing to pin down in people right? Um I often have ah. Negative Not it's it's hard to say negative. But I also have I have mixed feelings about when people use emotional intelligence like they just they they bandy it. You know in conversation very casually because I'm not sure it's ah it's ah a very um. Easy thing to Define or acknowledge or kind of understand when you're talking about other people. Um, and obviously we can talk about ways that we ourselves can individually practice emotional intelligence um or or effectuate that in others. But I think it's it's interesting. When you go into like that self- confidencedence that Self-acceptance. It's almost as if when we kind of get into laslo's hierarchy of like self-actualization and that someone becoming a ah full incomplete individual which personally I don't think really exists. But I. Seem seem to find that somebody who is in a place in their life like we we talked about privilege earlier doesra specifically pointed out privilege. Um I think that emotional intelligence sometimes cannot easily come to everybody across the board because people are either engaging or experiencing trauma. Um. 02:04:31.23 Nick Fakhoury They live with stress in their daily lives. They're so worried about where their next meal or where their next paycheck is coming from people don't necessarily have the capacity for emotional intelligence or practicing that or recognizing that and then on the other hand. Um I think that people actually leverage emotional intelligence to manipulate. Other individuals in their lives and that can that's that's just an example of a negative result of people who are able to use emotional intelligence to their advantage. But um, it's ah interesting. It seems like more less because empathy I feel like is immutable trait. And I think it's it's very important to kind of like separate these 2 ideas of empathy and emotional intelligence because emotional intelligence almost seems like a tool that you can use in your belt as an individual who um is trying to engage in mindfulness and introspection. Um. To improve your relationships with other people in your life whereas empathy almost seems like a value or kind of um you know something that you would want to a principle that you would want to live your life by as well as something that yeah exactly like a priority that you can. Um. 02:05:34.95 Jala A priority. 02:05:42.21 Nick Fakhoury Use whereas emotional intelligence just seems it's like some empathy. It's a tool that empathetic people use I feel like for sure which is very interesting to me. 02:05:50.89 Jala Right? right? So um and all of the stuff that I was looking up about emotional intelligence like when it comes to books to read and different articles to look at and everything everything I looked at was just like when it comes to employer stuff employee stuff. 02:06:06.80 Jala It's just about like you know managers learning their emotional intelligence. So. It's bandied around a lot in capitalist spaces in terms of leadership signs of good leaders and this that and the other and that's why there's so many tests for it. Um, it's just because like they're they're trying to assess this and quantify it so they can put that as a number to make you more appealing as a prospective employee. So um, yeah. 02:06:20.58 Nick Fakhoury Yep. 02:06:31.38 Nick Fakhoury It's very much a industrial organizational psychology based and I think that's and then it came into the world of mindfulness too. 02:06:37.73 Jala Right? right? And so one of the things that blows my mind personally is that all of these ei tests are all just self-reported tests of you know what? your emotional intelligence is but like something. I've talked about not not on a podcast but in my Discord server at some juncture was we got into this whole thing about you know personality tests and this that and the other and I'm like yeah but like here's the thing. Um, when you are doing a test that is a self-assessment that is not generally. In scientific terms usually considered to be a very accurate assessment because um, when you are self-reporting you know what? you know if you know what the test takers are looking for. You're going to try to cater to what that is. You're going to think in terms of ideals not actually reflect on what do you actually do in your daily life. Those kinds of things so like you know, ah you have different ways. There's lots of ways in which you may not be aware self-aware enough to know. Um you know what? your actual actions would be like. You also may be lying to yourself about what type of a person you are you know, like say for example, if you have narcissistic you know personality disorder whatever and you think that you are perfect. So you're going to do all the best things but in actual life, you're nothing like that right. 02:08:08.73 Jala You have all these different things that you're doing that don't line up with what your concept yourself. Concept is so um, that's why I think emotional intelligence tests are not worth your time whatsoever. There's a bunch of them. Ah 2 such tests are the mayor salive a carouso. Emotional intelligence tests which I'm not the mcsceit and the emotional and social competence inventory. This is just this sounds like portal words here. We're back in corporate America again Matt so ah, so. 02:08:38.63 Nick Fakhoury We are We sure are. 02:08:45.59 Jala So yeah, ah this is again. These are all just things that are used by employers to see if you're going to be a strong leader and it's like okay ah you know so so that kind of puts me off from you know that? that's what put me off from even looking into emotional intelligence for a long time actually is just. 02:09:03.12 Nick Fakhoury Um, again because it's like it circles back it circles back I'm sorry to cut you off, but it circles back to this idea of capitalism. You are a resource you are an asset in order to create more capital for your employer so identifying this value in somebody. 02:09:03.16 Jala All of that that I just said so. 02:09:19.85 Nick Fakhoury Or an individual is um, important to people. But I think it's so fun. It's it's very ironic to me because I think it's not something that can be easily tested. It's the same thing like ah intelligence like like iq tests have for a long time. Um, been disregarded in the in the academic community as being like there are iq tests that you can use and some are more respected by the other but largely in the academic community. They're disregarded because it's similar to this conversation that we've had about Ai for some time. There's this innate distilled human bias. Or biases that is in all of these tests that could you know skew the results in any direction depending on the the person who created it so that's that's why I agree with you jolly kind of just choose you know, enter it if you want to do it. Do it. But enter it with an open mind and feel free to disregard if you don't necessarily see what you want to see as a result of these tests. 02:10:12.39 Jala Right? right? But yeah, there's there's 4 components of emotional intelligence and I want to go through this and a little bit about how you practice emotional intelligence so we can talk about it further because I feel like the description isn't enough. So ah, there's 4 components perceiving emotions. Which is accurately identifying and acknowledging feelings reasoning with emotions using emotions to promote thinking and cognitive activity understanding emotions which is interpreting the cause of the feeling and what it may mean. And managing emotions which is regulating one's own emotions and responding appropriately so you can practice emotional intelligence in a bunch of different ways some ways that you can practice this are having empathy for others accepting criticism and responsibility moving on after a mistake. Saying no when you need to solving problems in a way that will work for everyone developing or practicing your listening skills not being judgmental of others and sharing your feelings with others. So yeah, this is um. 02:11:24.82 Jala A little bit. It goes Beyond empathy. It goes into like emotional intelligence is kind of overall more like how do you operate and function in a society or a work setting or what have you like in a group of people. How do you are? How are you. Employing your empathy is are you employing your empathy in a way which is ah overall allowing you to communicate better with people in a positive way and get to some end result that you all are looking for. Is it. Helping other people feel close knit with you This kind of thing like it's it's building something with the empathetic base. 02:12:12.83 Jala Um, Desiree tell us something about emotional intelligence. 02:12:17.98 Desiree And yeah, so with emotional intelligence I think a way to I do tend to over intellectualize things probably as a defense mechanism to not feel all those gushy emotions and whatnot. Um. But that can be helpful in doing that reflective work. Um, so specifically for me understanding how I process and specifically how I process trauma is something that's been very helpful for me a few years ago I read an article just it was a randomly recommended article and it's something that now comes up probably way more than should in conversation which is afantasia so aantasia is to varying degrees. You cannot make mental pictures inside your head. Some people can only see like a vague fuzzy image for some people. It's vague and fuzzy but colored some may only see black and white images in their head I close my eyes and I have black I cannot see a dang thing and on the flip side of that it kind of feels like a superpower almost. Weirdly to say when processing trauma because I can't take a picture I can't have a movie that replays over and over in my head of that time that I said that thing that was uncomfortable I could tell myself that story and beat myself up over and over again with the story. 02:13:50.38 Desiree But I've got way too much nonsense going on in my life to tell myself unnecessary stories so that for me understanding how this biological thing impacts How I receive and store and process information and how I process trauma and all of that. Can be really helpful to understanding that emotional intelligence piece. Um, saying no when you need to yeah I'm great at that when I don't want to do it? Um, but you know if it's a request from a friend or someone I care about or. 02:14:27.12 Desiree Student asking for an extension apparently I instantly become a doormat and I'm also okay with that. Um, because I try to be very very aware of that you know I just today took on pet sitting for two different friends. For the next week and a half or whatever and do I have the time for that. Probably not really, but you know I'll make the time in the space because that's something I can plan for so being able to plan for these things as much as you can and know when you have space and. Knowing when to say no before it becomes that point where you're just snapping on somebody. Um, a lot of that work is something that you can do too so that you're just very aware sharing your feelings with others that also you know that's going to be those vulnerable. Moments and that can be that fine line of where are you trauma dumping on somebody where are you taking up too much space in the room versus you know I'm maybe not going to be as able to engage with you today because I've got x y or z going on. Um, part of nonviolent communication training is also you know when you're going to somebody to do that dumping of feelings or whatever being like hey do you have space to let me just vent for a minute and the person might you know? yep. 02:16:00.66 Desiree Lay on me and other times they might be like ah oof No I've got a bunch of my own stuff going On. So then you have to go find someone else to share your emotions and your intelligence and and all of that with and that is emotional intelligence practicing gauging how much space other people might have to receive. But you're trying to get from them. 02:16:21.14 Jala Right? Absolutely Matt did you have any additional thoughts about emotional intelligence at this point. 02:16:30.20 Matt I mean I think that in as far as practicing them I think like like practicing empathy. It's important to learn to engage with these things and strengthen your ability to do so um, you know some of these things I'm very good at. Only this year learned to say no to a lot of things and I'm still not great at it but like I was editing like some absurd number like 8 or 10 podcasts at 1 point producing a variety of shows as well and it became too much and I couldn't work on the things that meant more to me, not that I didn't care about those things but like the I wasn't working on my own projects as. Hard because I was spreading myself so thin you know, saying no ah like like Desiree saying no to my friends when they really need help with something is really hard for me right? because it goes back to the hero complex and wanting people to be okay and to help. Um, but like I've worked really hard to not be judgmental of others to be a very good listener. Um I pride myself on my ability to give gifts I can pay attention to a detail you mentioned four months ago and then get you a gift for your birthday based on it. Um, but then listening to people in a conversational. Place where I think I have something to say I'm less good at right spending a lot of time thinking about what I want to say next instead of listening to what's being said to me and is the skill that I'm working on I think that being self-aware with emotional intelligence is really important and being able to acknowledge what your strengths are and work on what. 02:17:55.34 Matt Aren't your strengths while not flat self-flageellating for those shortcomings right? and being it's all in pursuit of becoming a better and more well-rounded person without um, torturing yourself for not having that strength or but we're all in perfect here right? There's no such thing as a perfect person and so. It's it's it all comes down to understanding and expansion and openness again and and learning how to grow while focusing on the things that you are your strength that you do do well. 02:18:24.94 Jala Right? right? And so there's like there was a point that Nick had made earlier that I definitely wanted to hit on again. So Nick had said that people can use emotional intelligence to manipulate other people. And that is absolutely true. Master manipulators will use what like their ability to understand the emotions of other people and then play off of those emotions to heighten their fear or to make them like them so that they can. You know then swindle them like scammers. Do this all the time scammers are some of the um, most charismatic people out there and it's because they have a high emotional intelligence and they're using that to get what they want and you know charm people by. Just being aware. You know, being able to observe things and um understand what somebody else might be thinking or feeling in response. So you know like there is a downside to it for sure but emotional intelligence when used for the power of good. Ah, can be very important to kind of like bring communities together be more cohesive. Um, you know be a space in which you don't have that situation where someone. 02:19:52.48 Jala In the group gets a run down because they are super empathetic but they don't have enough emotional intelligence to understand where their limit is for how much they can take on you know, um and things like that because so there's there's always that fear too like if you are friends. With someone and they ask favors of you. You don't want to disappoint them. You want them to be able to rely on you. You want them to come back to you and ask you again and to let them you know to to have them feel as though you know you are again, kind of like that safe space. You know that you are the person they can they can trust. For this, you know so to you even if that person might be like oh I totally get it I understand I'll ask somebody else in your own mind as an empathetic person or what have you? you're just like no I can't do that because then they're they're going to feel. XYZ way and like you start projecting into them all of these things that but they're they're actually the things that you're projecting into that other person are your own insecurities. You know like your own feelings of I need to do more always I need to do more I need to do more. You know. 02:21:08.90 Nick Fakhoury Yeah, it's it's hard to feel like there's there's ever enough. Um, especially when you are an empathetic person. It's hard to feel like that you're you're solving people's problems and you're and you're doing what you need to do? Um. With the people who matter to you in your life which is another reason why using emotional intelligence for good is so important I think and I think that that's kind of maybe I mean hopefully the key takeaway I think that you know obviously interpret this episode. However, you want dear listener but I think that it's. Obviously important to study it. It's important to think about it. Um, but at the end of the day again taking care of yourself and practicing that mindfulness and practicing that um, thinking with intention engaging other people with other people in an empathetic and intentional way is ah. Super important I'm not perfect at it I like like we've said before you know I don't think anybody's perfect as always. Life is always a constant process. Um, but taking that first step of thinking about things like this and thinking about well maybe how can I ah be a little bit more emotionally intelligent. How can I be more introspective or recognize other people's feelings or. Recognizing how my behaviors affect other people I think is um, you're on the step to success when it comes to you know, actualizing that in your own life which I think is very important and and always just like like Jalla said at the beginning of this section. Give yourself a lot of grace give yourself time because. 02:22:39.51 Nick Fakhoury It's a dynamic process and it's never over and there's always space that I think that people have to to learn and continue to grow and I I know that's especially true for myself as well as many others. 02:22:48.46 Matt I do want to comment quickly also on something Joll had said about how people can be manipulative using emotional intelligence like having this knowledge allows you to manipulate events or people and like I think even people with the best of intentions can use. Language and emotion to manipulate others into doing what they want for better or ill um, you know either calling someone a coward or saying that you know you won't do this if right giving Ultimatums and I think it's ah, always important to remember that just because someone gets a rise or response out of you. Doesn't mean that that response is correct or that you have to act on it immediately right? It good emotional intelligence I feel like works hand in hand with empathy and mindfulness and taking a moment and not jumping to conclusions or rushing into a situation or responding to something immediately because again. Like we've all said like you don't owe anybody anything you should you? You can't pour from an empty cup and if people are clearly trying to get something out of you whether you want to give it or not maybe take a moment and see why am I responding this way. Why are they. Responding this way. What's really happening here so that you don't you know, absolutely decimate yourself trying to do for others in a way that you think is healthy or right but may not be. 02:24:13.70 Jala Um, right, right? and something from Nick Aka Moon so not this nick that is on currently but other nick yes Nick is legion. 02:24:20.83 Nick Fakhoury The other nick in the multiverses of Nick Nicks 02:24:27.24 Jala Um, so so other nick ah we we were having like a longer conversation. But there's like 1 particular quote out of it that I asked him if I could share and he was fine with its programming actions is way more practical than programming feelings. So um. What that means is like to when you when you're somebody who is saying a thing you're just throwing something out there in the world. Um, that action of of throwing that information out there doing that little nugget putting that post on social media. Um, whatever it is. You're doing. That is something that you can control a lot easier than the people receiving that and how they're going to respond to it because they're going to respond in a way you know it may or may not be emotional depending upon the subject matter. But if it is an emotion that they're going to feel you know. You have to like that the onus of whatever they're feeling and response. You know is is something that has to be dealt with you know, um and it's easier for you to you know, take action to consider that other person. That's what this is all about you know. Programming your actions is better and easier than programming yeah trying to to tell this other person not to be sensitive about whatever it is like you don't you don't know that person's situation. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know their you know inner workings or anything so it's easier for you to. 02:25:56.70 Jala Ah, just you know to accommodate you know and be respectful of wherever they're at so I did want to do a real quick lightning round of some experiential questions quick quick quick. So ah, what. Is an instance in which you learned the hard way about how important empathy is so um, I'll I'll start with something so empathy is a trick in my house because my dad is not very empathetic. Um, he has trouble trying to place himself in other people's. Shoes and I think it's a Neuro Neuro What you know Neuro divvergence wiring thing with his brain.. It's very hard for him to try to put himself in other people's shoes. So um, there have been so many instances in my life where you know I've I've I've. Seeing it play out either in the way that he acts towards other people or towards me where I'm like you know if he had just done this thing a little bit differently than this situation might have been you know like this this horrible bad Blowup would have been nothing right? um. It could have just been a conversation rather than what it turned into. Um this also can play out in terms of well as my dad's gotten older. He is trying to you know make an effort to understand a little bit more. 02:27:21.90 Jala And trying to he's He's also not very good at explaining himself or or talking about how he feels or thinks about things so he's been making an effort to try to express so in doing so in turn you know he's like well when I'm saying this. I'm trying to do this and you know I feel X Y Z and then it comes into like this whole thing where even though he has upset me or upset someone else with something that he's saying you know it's It's helped me to exercise my empathy right back at him to. Meet him where he is and to understand his mentality and how he thinks and how you know this this thing that he said you know he's not very good with words. So This thing that he said ah is not necessarily to be taken at Surface value I need to do a little bit more digging. To get there and it's allowed us to bond a little bit better as my dad's gotten older in a way that I never had the capacity to previously because he was basically a wall. So um, in that way that helped me learn more about empathy. You know because ah both I could see where the empathy could have helped the situation from his perspective but I also saw how the empathy could have helped from my perspective that was a lot longer than I meant I'm sorry. 02:28:55.25 Jala Anybody else have ah an instance in which you learned the hard way about how important empathy is. 02:29:02.78 Matt I mean I don't know if this applies perfectly to this situation but something that I experienced when I was still in high school was ah empathizing with a bully which is not easy to do. Um. Hung out with a group of friends who often were were ma rats in the trut extent. We would spend all day and night there and within the group there were folks who didn't always get along and there was a guy who was kind of bullyish who picked on people who was kind of a hard ass and who I would always like kind of make fun of under my breath and. one day he was tired of it and kept threatening to fight me and he wants to fight me, he wants to fight me, you know he's got to show how manly is he wants to fight me so at one point I got tired of it and said you know what? if you want to fight me hit me and so it punched me in the nose and I broke his hand with my nose ah and. 02:29:51.95 Matt I was also of course in a lot of pain but I took it and then like after it happened and then I didn't throw a punch back and walked away he didn't it's like I malfunctioned his brain a little bit like he didn't know what to do with this information. Ah for months after he would like try to be my like best bud like. I don't know there's this switchs that turned off on him I think and I don't I think it's about me being empathetic of knowing that he's just a jerk and he's going to be a jerk. So maybe I'll let him be a jerk and he'll see something and him finally realizing that maybe the way he treated other people was not okay and after I refused to engage in this kind of. Barbarism of wanting to fight and beat the snot out of each other it kind of woke up something in him. Um I don't speak to this person anymore someone I knew when I lived in stem island when I was much younger I don't even really remember his name to be honest, but it's one of those moments where I realized I don't know that I took the punch because i. Was in that moment trying to empathize with how he was feeling and more I was tired of his shit and I didn't know how to get him to stop and so I thought if he hit me since I didn't want to resort to violence. He'd feel better or feel different or walk away or whatever and it more or less worked and I think it's. There are a lot of things going on there even under the surface that I don't know that either of us understood in that moment for sure and may not even now. But it's a moment where I realized really thinking about of a situation I was in as a as a teenager where we tend to not always do the best thinking. 02:31:23.63 Matt Resulted in this moment that was kind of an anomaly that I don't know that would happen now in modern life or even with modern teenagers but went the way it did when I was younger. 02:31:32.82 Jala Right? And I actually had a situation like when I was very very little I was the bully beater when a bully was picking on other people. Um, if they were picking on. You know, smaller boys or girls or whoever anybody. I would intercede and you know I wouldn't go and like necessarily go beat the crap out of the bully but I would get the bully to leave them alone and so I did that kind of thing. Well this kind of like ah this behavior you know was persistent throughout. So when I was in high school. There was a girl who had a speech impediment that was friend of mine and ah there was a bully that was picking on her and so you know I have operated for a very long time off of this awareness even back then that bullies are operating off of their own. Insecurities and pain and there's usually some other thing that's going on in their life. They are not always terrible to everybody. There's usually somebody that they you know are nice to it's just whoever it is. They're picking on is not the one and anyway I'm not going to go into the nitty gritty but in that situation. I was able to allow like help the friend of mine understand the place where you know this this bully was coming from and in doing so she stood up for herself kind of like how you were saying Matt which is how this ties in and then when she did that. 02:32:58.41 Jala That bully ended up going. Oh actually, you're really okay, you're cool and then ended up becoming really good friends with her for like the rest of high school. So yeah, pretty wild How about you nick. 02:33:11.36 Nick Fakhoury So in terms of yeah again, this is this is really tough because Ins is where I learned the hard way about yeah, it's I mean I the thing Well here's the thing is that I similar to what you're saying I find. 02:33:19.52 Jala Um, hey if you don't have an in that's fine too. Cool. 02:33:30.44 Nick Fakhoury Me to be empathetic I was an empathetic child naturally and I think that was the result of being raised by a single mother most for the most part of my life and I think that that um, instilled a lot of empathy and the way that I move the way that I try to engage with other people. Um I couldn't be more thankful for that. As a part of being in my life. But I I found that um life is pretty harsh and working and and engaging in this world and um, you know, interfacing with people who don't share equivalent levels of empathy. 02:34:07.34 Nick Fakhoury Can be really hard as somebody who when I was younger I would like myself to just kind of being like a very open nerve. Um, and I guess to kind of like foot this on its head in the inverse is that as I got older and I think this may be a natural thing of you know. You know something that happens to people when they get older. You just start feeling things less the more that you're exposed to life the more experienced and worldly you are the less things impact you as hard as when you're a teenager or if you're in your early 20 s for example. And but I did find that over the course of time in order to protect myself as David Desiree said a defense mechanism at times I steeled myself and I shut myself away from emotions or I shut my way myself away from wanting to um, empathize with other people as much because. In turn I recognize that it hadn't been done for me and I liken that to that's what normalization is that's what society should be like or that's what you know culturally in my immediate environment. This is how I should behave. Um and it wasn't until later until you know other relationships or other friendships had. Um, fallen by the waysider had been affected by um, you know this idea or this the the way that I had changed over the course of time and this is over breadth of many years. Um I realized that obviously like you do have to be very insightful and very introspective about you know. 02:35:34.11 Nick Fakhoury Using your empathy for good like when I was a kid We talked about you know, somatic empathy. You know I think everybody has heard to some degree or not yeah sympathy pains I would look at somebody who is in a wheelchair I would look at somebody in a cast and literally parts of my body would hurt because I would see somebody in pain and I. And for whatever reason my neural pathways would equate that for me feeling their pain I think that's just what being an empath is and I think that it's like something that I have learned as I've gotten older that it's something you can't disregard if it's an aspect of your personality. You can't repress that part of yourself On. It's something that you have to utilize in an effective way and it's something that obviously you have to use in an appropriate way with the people that are in your life. But um, it is incredibly important and it's not something that um should be taken for granted if you do see yourself as empathetic. 02:36:26.59 Jala Right? right? That's really an important point. So I'm glad that you brought that up and desiree. Do you have an instance that you want to talk about. 02:36:38.34 Desiree Sure, um, so for me I think I realized how important empathy was when I did not receive it at a time where I feel like I needed it the most so growing up my parents got divorced when I was pretty young I was. A ton of time with my grandma. She became my best friend moved out to Kansas after getting married so I didn't see her as much as I talked to her every day and she ended up passing away about 3 years after I moved out here. Um and the person who was at the time. My very best friend just. Could not give me the empathy that I needed to be able to process that overwhelming grief. Um because she was going through her own things trying to conceive which I have my own feelings about. Children and things and and having them and I was not at all able to give her any empathy on a journey that was important to her and just felt like I was getting nothing out of her even though she also had a very close relationship with her grandma. So if anyone could have understand it. Understood what that pain was it should have been her. Um, so those moments of not receiving it feel so isolating, especially when you have someone who has been your rock and someone that was reliable to you and so then that can decrease your trust. 02:38:09.86 Desiree Essentially in the world if this person that you relied on so heavily and meant so much to you can't give you what you need and this was you know more than a decade ago so not having any of the language or the training or the background I have now to be able to express that. Or even understand it or process it until years later and that friendship basically dissolved immediately after that because I thought well I can't trust this person anymore. 02:38:35.93 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely and again like that that feeling of isolation and that that feeling that you get where you don't have anybody you don't have anybody you can rely on that's the exact pain that you know drives me. 02:38:54.75 Jala To this day you know? So ah yeah, so another another topic talking about a moment in which you expressed empathy or when someone else expressed empathy to you during a difficult time and how that panned out I cannot tell you. 02:39:12.69 Jala How many times. Um I have been in a situation where things have been rough. Ah after the the long scarring period of of being alone during all of my trauma then I had a long long period of uplifting times where people were there for me including people that I didn't know like people that I just. Saw out in the world that would just be really nice to me and just whatever when they noticed that I was not having a good day just doing nice nice things for me. Um, and every single time it ever happened. It was always like 1 of those restoring your faith in humanity type situations where it's like. I was so down on everything at the point points you know where somebody was kind to me those random acts of kindness that paying it forward for the times that people have been there for you. Ah really have made a difference and I've been told by people that you know. My my being there for them in moments where you know they were not doing well is like you know a reason that they are are you know doing okay at this point in time or like they that changed their life impacted them in some major way. Um. So I mean as much as I've received I've also tried to also turn around to just give it to other people. Um, again, just kind of paying it. Forward. 02:40:40.76 Matt I mean I can speak to that specifically and personally I mean I haven't known you for super long time Jolla but in the time I have and we've talked a lot since we've met. Ah, you've very often offered a moment of advice or just a space where I can complain or vent or if I post something on Instagram. That I'm going through you've reached out and respected when I don't respond and have been really warm when I have and that's an important quality to have in a friend and someone that you can talk to and I super value that as someone who tries to be that person for other people when I receive it. Um, even from someone I've only known. Ah, handful of months you know we've not even known each other a year yet like you're still treating me with the respect and kindness that you would treat a longtime friend and I think that's an important thing that is not always easy to do and isn't always something you can do with everyone but I am super grateful for that that. Outreach to me because it's made a huge impact. 02:41:37.88 Jala Well I'm happy to hear that and you know it's It's also kind of like that awareness like a lot of people can't ask and I've been in that situation where I physically have had a trauma response to where I I Basically. Cannot move and I cannot speak my throat closes and I can't and I'm trapped inside myself So whenever people are feeling whatever ways they're feeling I tried my best to you know, just reach out and just see how they're doing because. I've physically been in that state which is part of what lent you know, lent itself to ah those times that I mentioned where I was by myself trying to deal with things that were overwhelming to me. So yeah, it's It's ah, extending that and and extending those feelings and understanding that. People can't always ask when they need help like whenever somebody whatever you're in a ah situation. Um, you know and somebody says to you? Oh Well I'm always here if you need me, you can just message me or or call me or whatever they're never going to call you. They're not going to call you. They're not.. They're not going to ask. You need to ask? you need to be proactive in those situations and reach out to them when they're feeling that way because ah it is. It's this ah terrible kind of circuit where you end up. Um like you're exhausted and you feel alone but because you're alone and you feel exhausted like you You can't. 02:43:12.71 Jala You don't have any energy to reach out and you feel self-conscious about reaching out and you're feeling bad for any number of different reasons. So then it's just like this cycle that just keeps you in that state and you can't break out. You need somebody else to come and knock on the door and be like hey hey you know what's going on. Are you? Okay, you know. So yeah, always check on people, especially your strong friend. How about you nick. 02:43:42.65 Nick Fakhoury Ah, expressing empathy. Um, yeah I I think it's like it's one of these. It's one of these ideas where I um i. Find it I find it difficult because I I this this comes very natural to me. Um, just talking with people about their own individual experiences about the hard situations that they've come from. Um I seek out the questions about how they feel about how how that they've reacted to. There they I want to know more about what their experience was like and I think that it's it's something that is I think maybe comes not as as it doesn't hit as home or close close to home with other people as as it does with me but I think. I am so curious in other people's lived experience that I I do this as a reflexive behavior being empathetic wanting to know. Um how this how this happened or why people came to that and then some people are just like closed doors I was just recently talking to to someone. Um, you know a friend of mine and. They mentioned that they were you know going through therapy and they barely gave me and I you know I asked them about it and I wanted to go through that you know conversation with them and engage with them on ah on a 1 to 1 level in a real way and they. 02:45:09.75 Nick Fakhoury Shut down. They absolutely refuse to talk about it which they're of course not obligated to talk about it. You know what' what happens in what's this said between you and your therapists is supposed to stay between you and your therapists unless you want to share that and it's I think I've kind of I'm in a lot of social spaces where it's not um. Like therapy or talking about what you're going through or mentioning the fact that you you have there of therapists is not stigmatized anymore. Um, but this 1 individual just really did not want to um, engage with me or want to accept my empathy in a way and that's something where. Yeah circles back to what we were saying earlier about establishing boundaries and realizing that upfront was like after I'm asking a few probing questions like oh so how did this you know, affect your relationship with your family or how was this conversation this week um and then just getting a little to no response or absolutely just changing the subject immediately. That's when I realized this is not something that is up for discussion with a person and I think that that was important for me to realize and it was just me practicing that moment being like okay let me take a step back I don't we don't have to engage with this. We don't have to. We don't have to realize this and so that's ah, that's a little bit of a. 02:46:23.62 Nick Fakhoury Empathy and emotional intelligence. Um, all in 1 Maybe. 02:46:27.77 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's a really good um takeaway too something something to think about des how about you a time when some you expressed empathy or somebody else expressed empathy to you and you know. 02:46:43.15 Jala How did that pan out. 02:46:45.54 Desiree Yeah, so um I mentioned I'm in a ph d program. This is the start of our second year our cohort began with 10 and by the end of the first year we are already down to 6 having worked at a university in graduate support roles that is not a normal attrition rate for a graduate program. Um particularly not one that I don't think is especially super challenging. We're not in the medical field. It's library science. You know we're not going to save someone's life by doing brain surgery or anything like that. So. It felt very abnormal to me, especially considering I went through both of my master's programs at the same school. And that was not the same attrition rate at all, we hardly lost any master students. So that's something that I have been consciously bringing up to both of my professors this semester also having that experience as an educator at the college level myself being able to bring that expertise and say like look. This is not normal. What is going on what support are my peers not getting so there were a couple that I reached out to 1 on 1 1 of them had a pet pass away which is something that I highly overemphasize with having gone through many many. 02:48:14.19 Desiree Pet passings myself several that year alone because I had a cluster of geriatric pets that all kind of aged together and so making those 1 on 1 connections with my peers and being like hey I see you. I can empathize with you because we're both in this cohort. What is going on with one of them. You know they were accidentally copied on email. They shouldn't have been copied on that was basically saying they were a crappy student and that was enough to get them to drop out. Um, others just felt overwhelmed with work duties. Others were having difficulty understanding the material or understanding what the professors were asking for it all so and you know I've told several of them I've got some emotional bandwidth right now if you want to schedule 1 on ones we can do like a. Coffee or tea or lunch over Zoom and I've had a couple of them reach out to me and take me up on that and just spend an hour chatting with them letting them be like hey here are all my problems here. All the things and in the spaces where I can. Help them by either offering. Oh you're you know, looking into this type of research let me help you find a source I do and others. It's enough for them to just know that somebody sees them and someone saw they were in pain and thought to reach out. 02:49:31.64 Jala Right? And that right there that listening bit and just like opening it up even if they don't take you up on the offer. You know the fact that you opened it up and you know made that offer in the first place is so important because. Especially with a lot of people working from home and otherwise you know feeling isolated for 1 or another reason the way that our society works these days. Um, you know it's easy for people to feel like they don't have anybody they can go to so you know having that. Having that kind of lifeline even if it's not something that you take up is a comfort that can make all the difference. So. 02:50:15.50 Desiree And for sure and having that you know so you know you mentioned don't say just call me if you need to going a little bit extra and you know I did tell them if you you want to reach out you can I also provided this is my link to my personal Zoom room. Or people that work at the same university I do I provide the link to my calendar so they can see or I'll propose a few times say hey from you know, 2 to 4 on Tuesdays and Thursdays I'm going to be here so thinking of creative ways that you can. Offer to set that space aside without just doing that blanket. Oh I'm here if you need me because like Jalla said they're not especially if they're very self-conscious about needing help in the first place they're not going to do that. So how can you without being sort of heavy handed and let's talk now. Ah, can you offer those you know at five o'clock on Fridays I'm at x or y local coffee place come have a chat with me how can you set aside that time. 02:51:19.61 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that's like a lovely lovely way to do that. So very, very, very, very very last thing. So if you could change the empathy levels emotional intelligence. Whatever of any 1 thing. You know any 1 area in the world and I don't mean like a physical space I mean just like realm of society or what have you like what? where would you change it I would say the government the and the government. You can't pick the government pick something else. 02:51:58.82 Nick Fakhoury Well, if I can't pick the government I'm going to immediately go to social media because that's only going to get more important as we move and to being so much more of a digital society. Um, we need to it's it's become the new water Cooler. It's we people really don't engage in person enough anymore. And that is a shame but everybody does tend to default an interface online I think it's so important to have like irl communities that you can go and interface with which is another great thing Jalla that you do with your community is bringing people together. Um. And and but it's also a space where it's like people might not necessarily have the capacity to engage. Um either through accessibility issues or their own personal mental issues. They they might not have the capacity to engage with other people in real life or the people that they want to in real life. So I think it's really important if we could just change just. Flip a switch magically and change the way that people interface on social media across the board with empathy that would be wonderful and just thinking how other people might feel based on what you say and do on those sites. 02:53:01.64 Jala Oh my God Could you just imagine the change that that would make huh. Okay. 02:53:10.25 Matt Ah I'm going to go a little more micro and say family and relatives I am very lucky to have parents who are very empathetic and family members who are very empathetic. But I think some of us have none and then everyone who has definitely has that one who isn't. 02:53:27.37 Matt Um, and you know I I don't there's no like obvious answer I know with my own family members that are less empathetic or less understanding I try to explain I try not to shut out but it's very easy when someone you've known for 304050 years and that's always been that way to just let it be and kind of shut yourself off and I'm trying to do less of that that said it's also like pick your battles right? if you have that 1 racist uncle who is always going to be racist. No matter how many conversations and arguments you have your mental health and. 02:54:02.40 Matt Empathy and emotional intelligence is important as well. And so I think it's a double edged sword but I I would really like there needs to be more resources I think and I know there are some 4 families that struggle with this stuff. Um, as therapy becomes less of a. Dirty word and people are more accepting of it. There is definitely an avenue for that and I'm sure there are many other resources that I don't even know about but like for sure like I think just because you know someone and you love Them. Doesn't mean they necessarily understand you were what you're going through and that's okay and I think being more open to those conversations and. Growing Those bonds are deeply important because you know no matter how well you know your parents your siblings your children whoever there's probably room to know them more better understand what they're going through and meet them where they live. 02:54:50.93 Jala Right? right? deaths. How about you were killed get another love for desiree Now you can come up with something. 02:54:57.60 Desiree Um, dang Y'all are y'all are taking them. Ah yeah I can um because I'm going to selfishly say higher education or even education more broadly. 02:55:14.40 Desiree So specifically in higher education. There's this mentality of child by fire of I went through it so you should have to to you know I was abused by my graduate advisor in the sense of I had to do all the grading I had to put in 40 hours a week for 20 hours of substandard pay um you know I during undergrad I wrote an honors thesis so I was a psychology major so when you know you all were asking me how do academics do this work. The psychology people are the worst at it because they intellectually know all of it and um so I had an advisor who. I'd done research under him I was writing this on nurse thesis under him. He was amazing and then one day it was like a switch flipped and he started treating me like garbage and one day I came into his office crying and his response was well I was going to do this a little bit longer but clearly you can't handle it and I was like what. Response was well. This is what graduate school is going to be like so if you're going to go into a psychology graduate program. You need to toughen up you know little midwestern white girl figure out what the real world is and. I cannot abide higher education being like that it should be nurturing. It should be supportive and you know so do away with all of that I went through it so you should have to too and focus on I went through it so I'm going to do everything I can to make sure you don't. 02:56:44.53 Jala Right? right? Absolutely So now it's time for the socials. Hooray met. 02:56:55.62 Matt Um, so I can no longer be found on my personal Twitter because Elon Mus decided when I defended trans people that that was unacceptable and so it got shut down but all of my podcasts have their own social media. You can find them their screen Underscore Snark fun games pod and reignite pod. Otherwise if you want to engage with me personally I do have an Instagram that's dejay underscore stormageddon and I have a blue sky that's dejay stormageddon no underscore because apparently blue sky hates underscores. Ah the best way to find all of the stuff that I do is at Djay Stormageddon Dot Com I made it very easy for you. Um, all of my podcasts are on every single podcast platform if you are currently a fan of the show and are day listen to my stuff. Thank you, please consider writing a review if you haven't that really helps this show so write one for Jala and then all other shows out in the internet space to get featured find community and grow. Conversations just like this one. Um, as for me though, the best way to support me is either joining the funny games Patreon because ah me and Jeff have decided that because the internet is going to hell in a handbaket we're going to start treating our Patreon like a blog and putting a ton of stuff there. Free and paid because that's I think the best way to engage with community. So if you're fan of video games. That's a really great way to support me otherwise I have a merch store and a coffee. That's just kind of hey you want to buy me a coffee please feel free that is also extremely helpful and I am very grateful for that. 02:58:24.65 Matt And thank you for having me. It was a pleasure to be here. 02:58:27.84 Jala Yay! Check that out I've I've got should have got a stop watchtch so I could see how how you managed to can't get all that in there right right? Nick how about you where can you be found on the internet. 02:58:35.52 Matt I've had a lot of practice. 02:58:41.61 Nick Fakhoury Absolutely so if you want to reach out to me or if you want to engage with with us on the show I am the primary host and I run the socials for the Friday night Gamecast and you can find us on the website formerly known as Twitter at fngc pod um, and then my ah personal i. twitter handle is also linked there. It's at Nikolai at night. But yeah exactly I can't it can only echo everything that Matt said and he was much more professional about that than I'm able to be but ah yeah, definitely if you can leave us a rating review First of course, go to to Jaa go to Jala Chan's place and leave ah a rating review on your preferred platform of choice. There. Please go and do that. She's great about it so she will 100% return that Jala I know you got featured on our show. Just recently. So thank you again personally for reaching out to us. But yeah, we are the Friday night gamecast if you want to have some insightful and thoughtful discussion on video games. 02:59:35.53 Jala Yay yay and Desiree you are a ghost on the internet so you do not exist on the internet. But. 02:59:39.85 Desiree Ah, basically I do have a Twitter it's at denyins I have an Instagram it's desiree dot niins but they're both primarily for cute animal content and messaging Jala so anyone is welcome to reach out to me there. But. 02:59:58.00 Desiree Do not expect me to post things because that's scary. 03:00:00.69 Jala And that is the smartest thing you could do on the internet is just not post anything to be quite honest. Yes, Yes, yes, and I did I I did absolutely go through all of the podcasts that I listened to and leave reviews for everybody because I was like I cannot. Be asking people for reviews when I'm not out there putting those reviews First. So I did the thing you can do the thing. It's really easy to do the thing y'all it is anyway, that's all that's all I've got so ah, you can find me. 03:00:36.60 Jala Anywhere that I might be found at jalachan including jalachan.place where you found this episode and all of the others so that is everything folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]