[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Marcus (they/them) and Zombi (they/them) both of whom have been on this show previously a couple of times as a pair so this is cool. Welcome back. Both of you. 00:16.85 Zombi And hey. 00:18.20 Marcus Um, has ah good to be there. 00:20.74 Jala Yay! So ah, how are you both doing I will ask Marcus first just because their name comes first in the list. 00:26.33 Marcus Yeah, alphabetical order you know? No I'm here I'm good I'm you know doing a lot significantly better than last time with like general life stuff. Got some things that I mentioned before we started recording but it's getting handled. It's Fine. It's fine. I am starting with a new job I Just finished onboarding recently. So That's pretty fun working with seniors on with fitness with seniors which is pretty Cool. So That's gonna gonna yeah. 00:55.30 Jala Oh that is super awesome. Yay Yay! I'm so happy That's ah, that's a really very important and very needed thing as of another fitness person who. 00:56.32 Zombi And it's amazing. 01:08.49 Jala Has parents that really needed to be doing this up before they got to the point that they're at right now and they wouldn't listen to me like yeah I Definitely um, think that that is admirable and amazing. So awesome congratulations. 01:22.38 Marcus Thanks yeah, should be. It'll be a learning experience to say the least. 01:27.98 Jala Yeah, yeah, the silver sneakers yay! So ah, Zombi how are you doing today. 01:35.22 Zombi I am doing wonderful I'm really tired I've been um, consistently going to the gym and lifting heavy which has been feeling. Great. But also you know taking a toll on me in the way that I'm sleepy all the time and I'm back to School. So. Just between Sleepy but happy. Yeah, so pretty good. 01:52.55 Jala Yeah, and well the good news about ah hitting the gym and getting to that is that although it feels like hell your first week or 2 You'll settle into it and then you'll get stronger and like it'll be easier for you. It's just your body's kind of in shock right now like what? what are we Doing. We don't do this? Yeah and then I will I will say don't take too long of a break from it because if you. 02:11.26 Zombi Oh God It's so been a shock I'm looking forward to getting used to it because ah. 02:22.20 Jala Do you'll get that crappy feeling again. So definitely stay consistent. Consistency is the key here. So for sure. 02:23.21 Zombi Off 100% a lifestyle I'm starting to understand all the all fitness people out there. Why y'all are always at the gym talking about the gym and everything I'm starting to get it. It's clicking. 02:36.66 Jala Yeah, yeah, well, it's very. 02:37.78 Marcus I yeah I'm actually starting up I'm starting up in a new gym soon to in probably the next week or so. So yeah, it's it's gonna be a constant. Yeah. 02:48.76 Jala Yeah,, that's super Awesome. So yeah, So I think the um I I have I have been sick all week I had to call out from work I am also rundown but it's a different type of rundown. Weirdly, no congestion but I have amazing head pressure. It feels like my head's in a vise my eyes are going to pop out of my head and that's where I'm at right now. But I'm excited. 03:10.60 Zombi So let's keep those eyes in that head. 03:14.12 Jala I know like I don't need to do like the the creepy like Roger Rabbit you know what was it judge doom with his eyes popping out of his head type weird thing from the end of the oh it's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah I know that is so so nightmarish anyway, sorry sorry. 03:21.56 Zombi No I'm going to get nightmares. 03:32.69 Jala So today for listeners we are talking about sexuality and identity. This is a follow-up episode to the attraction and identity episode that we were talking about before and before we ah head into it too far I will say that. We will be of course talking about and the physical part but we're also as the title indicates going to be talking about like what does sexuality in general mean for a person's sense of self and all of that kind of thing as well. So like a lot of the psychology behind it. And yes, we will be hitting those experiential questions we didn't get to you last time because we were so enthused talking about the attraction part. So um, yeah, that's where we're headed with that today. So without any further ado I will start this episode with some information as usual. What is sexuality human sexuality is the way people express and experience themselves sexually this involves biological psychological physical erotic emotional social or spiritual feelings and behaviors. That's a lot of different ways to be experiencing sexuality and I feel like all of these are 100% valid ways of experiencing it and if you sit with that list for a minute like you know there are a lot of aspects of that that aren't really broached in society a lot like. 05:00.96 Jala Ah, social stuff gives you sexual feelings emotional stuff. Okay, emotional makes sense erotic. Yes, physical yes, psychological yes biological yes spiritual. You know, like those are some ways that people don't necessarily tend to tie. In with like a sexuality and sexual expression. But they absolutely track anyway because it is a broad term which has varied historical contexts over time. It lacks a very precise definition. This is according to Wikipedia. So yeah, what is sexuality good question like isn't that. Every single time we do one of these episodes and I try to get a definition for something. It's like actually you can't that's why we're doing an episode on it. 05:45.99 Marcus Yeah I mean pretty much yeah like we end up being like well See. There's this whole other thing that's not that wasn't listed in that definition and there's this aspect and blah blah I Do like that this touched touched on spiritual feelings and behaviors because. I know that my thought press us around sexuality has changed dramatically since I haven't been in church since my early 20 s so that made it made a very very large difference in terms of like my sexual identity but just also how I think about sex in general which it it's very. Interesting to think back on what I you know how I can what I things I considered sexual and what I considered to be like I mean obviously with you know, evangelical christianity. You know they have. There's a whole lot of shame around sexuality and so that colored a lot of my view at the time and then since I left and got to explore and like see the world and Sow my wild oats and everything. Ah. Yeah, it changed a lot and then also in some ways it didn't and I find it interesting to also look back and see like what aspects of my sexuality were part of my core and had nothing to do with any kind of external influence at all and I thought that's pretty cool too. 07:06.16 Zombi That is cool. 07:08.40 Jala Yeah, yeah, and I would say that something that is is kind of a better way to frame the concept of sexuality to me anyway and this is this is probably just me talking from my own experience because that's the only one I got um. Sexuality is kind of like anything that really excites. You can be like an expression of sexuality of your own sexuality of your own ah sense of self when it comes to these kinds of feelings like your heart like okay because when you have this excitement. Your heart is racing and you feel like this rush of hormones and all of this other stuff and the biological processes that occur during sex is you know the same kind of biological process that happens when you have an extreme spiritual experience and when you have a very extremely. Pleasant sensual experience. Even if it's like you know a good cigar or ah, a piece of really good chocolate is like sex you know like that's that's why people make those comparisons and you know this song is like sex. You know when people say that they're really hitting is something that. Is fundamental to our nature because the sense of sexuality that we have is something that ah drives us towards being pleasure-seeking folks. We've got one life to live. We want to have a good time and so the way that that manifests for people. 08:38.45 Jala Is different and some people who would consider themselves to be asexual does not mean that they don't have sexual feelings. They just don't have the expression of sex in the way that society thinks of it thoughts. 08:56.12 Marcus And yeah, um, yeah, when it comes to like asexuality in particular like something that ah sex positive asexuals especially will bring up is it's not that they don't have a libido you know it's not that they don't have the desire. It's not that they don't necessarily enjoy Sex. It's just that they don't experience. Sexual attraction towards people the way that the broad majority of of the population will experience or will ah talk about how they experience sexual sexual attraction towards a person and that's very interesting too and that's when you start to get into like the you know the. Spectrum of asexuality you get into demisexuality gray sexual phrase sexual all these other different things and how people feel sexual attraction to other folks. It's fascinating. 09:43.58 Zombi It is as ah like a demisexual myself I'm a very physical and yeah, physically loving person to everyone I meet which can often be mistaken for sexuality or for sexual interest in another person. But for me, it's just like I want to touch you I want to feel you. But I don't want to bone you because I don't note you you know. 10:01.52 Marcus So exactly. So yeah. 10:03.41 Jala And yep, yeah, and I'm I'm another person who's very um, touchyfeely or like I have a history of being Touchy-feely I can't even really say that I am anymore because we talked about it on the attraction app. But like as I get older a lot of times like that's a. 10:21.68 Jala Giant. No no where it used to be kind of like Okay, if you were you know a college kid because nobody was married to anybody else yet and like you know, not doing their adulting and having children and I don't know whatever as often and so like the kind of situation was different and more. Stuff like that was allowed within friendship groups that I feel is you know it's actually to our detriment as adults that that kind of stuff is just shamed by the larger society because like we all need touch and we all need closeness. In some form or another and if as long as it's consensual and everybody's okay with that you know but I feel like a lot of times the way that it is it makes people uncomfortable. It's not because they necessarily dislike that sensation so much as it is society tells them that they shouldn't be doing that because of x. And then they think that they're doing a bad thing and this is taboo and that turns into oh no and then they have like a a freezing up or something like that. You know what I mean and. 11:25.37 Zombi Yeah, and there's also cases where they may like it too much and they don't want to cross any boundaries. So sometimes it's a matter of like overthinking how the other person feels about what they're doing. 11:38.68 Marcus For that is very true and of course like I do have ah a general feeling that like I don't know I feel like we get stuffy as we get older. It's just kind of a weird thing. But then like we hit it. But then also you know we reach a certain point I've noticed this like with my grandparents those the the 2 of them that I have left um as they've gotten older. They've loosened up a lot like they like when it comes to like physical touch. They're just like you know, especially my grandma she's like oh ba come on. You know. And she's just she's a sweet old lady. Um, and yeah, she as she got older. She just became a lot more like Huggy and would you know touch people on the shoulder and do all like you know, do all the kind of like very caring loving. 12:29.40 Marcus Kind of touch that I feel was I don't know missing for a lot of it until she got older. So. 12:33.77 Jala Yeah, absolutely. 12:33.93 Zombi And that's precious I feel like there's not enough conscious time for us on this earth for us to not display those emotions toward each other as long as soul of course consensual and it it makes me a little sad that we do get kind of stuffy as we get older. It's like why are we doing this. 12:51.77 Marcus Right? exactly and then like in office environments. Everything's like all super buttoned up and all this other stuff and it's just ah, it's it is saddening. So. 13:01.42 Zombi And oh my gosh is someone studying HR and all of the sexual harassments and everything it's ah. 13:04.11 Marcus Oh no. 13:08.85 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, absolutely I was going to say I my day job is an insurance and like I can tell you about anything could be misconstrued as a as a. Bad and have a lawsuit after it. So unfortunately in our ah litigating times ah stuff like workplace casual workplace chilling out is a big. No-no because that can very easily lead to you know? um people. Misinterpreting that and taking that in a wrong way. Unfortunately, but I mean like I I remember back when I used to work you know retail years ago and like my manager. At 1 point would literally come from across the store to wherever I was working in the stockroom and then like back up into the stockroom for me to shrub his shoulders because. I would give people a little shoulder massage every once in a while because that's like a thing that my dad and I do to show like affection to each other is just like we'll we'll give each other like a massage of the hand or a shoulder massage and so like that's a thing that I would do when I was comfortable with people. 14:20.93 Jala And so like I had a manager that would just be and I there's absolutely no way that could happen these days but back when I was working in retail. You know that was a thing. 14:25.74 Marcus No, definitely not. 14:28.84 Zombi Yeah I had the same kind of experience in retail except with some of my older coworkers I Always thought we had this really friendshipy environment be like hey do you want to go out and get coffee with me sometime as I was you know a teenager very innocently thinking? Oh we're just hanging out because we're friends. It's like no no, no, we can't do that. And only now as I'm older. Do I understand why they said no. 14:49.68 Jala Yeah, yeah, so well, that's a whole whole nother bag. We have so much to talk about. Let's let's I hate to put ah a pin on that. But like if we get time we can come back to that. So um, continuing on. 14:54.45 Marcus Yep already. 15:07.98 Jala The circles of sexuality is a model by Dennis Daily Ph d there are these are the ways that your sexuality is felt and expressed and all of these circles revolve around a core circle of your personal values. It's kind of like a solar system with a bunch of orbiting planets. Pluto is included here anyway. Um yeah I keep on getting these ads on Instagram for a shirt that's like remember pluto blah blah blah and it has like the dates until 2006 when they made it not a planet anymore. So it's like a personal joke just for like me sorry guys. 15:28.24 Marcus And Justice for pluto. 15:45.92 Jala Um, so anyway these circles are sensuality which involves a level of enjoyment of 1 ne's own body and or the bodies of others skin hunger oral and um and visual stimuli sexual response cycle body image and fantasy. 16:04.94 Jala Sexualization which involves how we use our sexuality which may include manipulation of or controlling others flirting media messages and images seduction withholding sex sexual harassment sexual assault there's sexual identity which is how we perceive. Ourselves as a sexual being that can be biological sex Gender Identity Gender role sexual orientation I Like the fact that they separate the gender identity and the gender role here because. Just because you have a certain gender identity doesn't mean that that's the role that you want to play in a sexual situation. So You know like that's that's very good that they have that split out. 16:45.17 Marcus I yeah, that's that's a very important distinction because yeah, some people are yeah, there'll be 1 role in 1 situation and 1 role in another situation and like the idea that one can't be different in you know, especially like when we're talking about like. Sexuality. That's a very vulnerable thing for a lot of folks and it's going to reveal certain parts of their identity that they don't play out that wouldn't play out in any other situation. You know so. 17:12.21 Jala Yeah, Absolutely so intimacy is the degree to which we express or have a need for closeness to another person caring sharing loving and liking risk taking vulnerability trust self-disclosure. And sexual health and reproduction relates to our attitudes and behaviors about sex and the consequences of sex acts So Sexual Behavior Anatomy Physiology sex and reproductive systems Stds contraception abortion pregnancy. All of that. Is included in that so it basically is like these are the different planets that are revolving around the sun. The sun being your own core sense of self. Um your personal values. So. Anyway, um I will put a link of course to that in the notes for everyone to take a look at so continuing on what is the sexual response cycle This was mentioned earlier in the sexualization section. So we'll talk about that. The sexual response cycle refers to the sequence of physical and emotional changes that occur when a person is sexually aroused and participates in sexually stimulating activities including intercourse and masturbation knowing how your body responds during each of these phases can enhance your relationship. 18:40.26 Jala And also help you pinpoint the cause of sexual dysfunction if you happen to have a sexual dysfunction and there are several different proposed models of a sexual response cycle but this is the one that is most widely used desire or libido can last for a few minutes to several hours it involves physical changes including increased muscle tension heart rate a flush to the skin perking or swelling of genitalia in the beginning of preemptive lubrication then you've got arousal or excitement which is the thing that continues up between your anticipation or your desire. And the actual orgasm and this includes an increase in the changes found during the desire stage and can also have muscle spasms and sweating involved then there's orgasm which is the climax its involuntary muscle spasms a sudden and forceful release of tension. Rapid intake of oxygen and a full body flush then there's the resolution where the body is returning to normal. It's often called coming down commonly this involves a general sense of well-being and often fatigue the well-being is due to all the hormones that get released during sex acts. So you know like that's that's part of the whole physiological thing. There's so many different hormones that just are generated during all of this. So. 20:03.49 Marcus So something I want to add here just that's kind of funny um in Japan they've actually added I don't know if this is like official but it's something that they actually have a phrase for post-solution. They actually have a separate term for postnut clarity. They just call it in japanese kenja taimu which is just like that moment of just like oh my gosh. My brain's so clear right now. Oh no, you know it's I find that hilarious that they've actually got a completely separate term just for that and yeah, that would. 20:38.95 Marcus Part of the resolution stage I guess and I feel like ah it's something that we don't talk about often enough as as a society I think that people don't really talk about that. We joke about it. Plenty. But I think that there's some. There's a high amount of like validity to it that I think we don't lend. We don't lend to the idea that we should because there are a lot of times. Especially for people who've done a lot of one night stands you know they have that kind of you know during the coming downstage. That's usually the moment where they're like trying to sneak out of the house. You know? yeah. 21:12.21 Zombi I I struggle so hard to relate to that like I know it's a thing and I know people that experience the thing but it's so hard for me to fathom that. 21:14.85 Marcus Things like that. 21:23.12 Marcus It's it's interesting I have only experienced that with another person a few times and it's never like bad. It's just kind of like it's more like well that happened all right, then's weird. 21:34.51 Zombi And I think that's a good way to put it. Yeah. 21:36.88 Jala Yeah, yeah I I found myself in a couple of situations where I've had that kind of moment as well. But it's um, you know the the exact well that happened like huh. Well all right? We're here now. 21:50.83 Marcus You? Yeah yeah, like the Hor the hormonal Haze wears off and you're just looking around it like oh right here. 21:58.63 Jala Well I mean I feel kind of like um that particular sensation is something that Zombi as a demisexual would not have because like ah by virtue of their ah requirements. You know like they wouldn't have that kind of oh wow. I didn't realize this was going to occur today you when I woke up, you know, like that. That's just not going to happen for Zombi you know? So um, so. 22:20.50 Marcus Yeah, right? Yeah, exactly. 22:21.65 Zombi Yeah,, that's what I was sticking to and like I totally get.. It's a valid thing and it's very real but I just have not experienced it. It's hard for me to fathom as a whole like I Also think that my comedown period is a lot longer than a lot of people's like I am still ready to go and now we're after and it's still the same kind of. Feeling even after I've been able to reach orgasm or anything even multiple times I'm still ready. 22:45.46 Jala Well, it's it's funny because I would say like you say that the resolution is longer for you for you know, but I'm still ready to go my resolution period takes longer to to and for me, it's like I feel like instead it's actually. 22:46.16 Marcus Um, yeah, other follows. 23:02.60 Jala Extremely short for me because I am ready to go again right? afterwards and it's like I'm just waiting on my partner to get over whatever they need to do you know like I've got to I've got to you know, find something to do during that period you know like and and then to just. 23:21.60 Jala Thinking about these stages in thinking about like which of these do you derive the most excitement from or pleasure or whatever from has also an important like for me I I don't. 23:34.74 Jala Actually care about the orgasm too much I'm very much about like the initial desire of it and having that desire and having that flirting and that like you know, kind of like anticipatory feeling and of course like all the foreplay and stuff like I'm really into all of that. And then there's like I said there's almost no resolution I don't want to cuddle I I want to I want to get you Again. I don't want to cuddle you like what is this? No I am very busy. Ok you know. 23:58.74 Marcus Yeah, ah yeah, definite got an incredibly an incredibly short refractory period. It's like all right, Let's go. Yeah yeah. 24:12.37 Jala And I will not leave you alone except for the amount that I ah have to leave you alone so like and and so that's me but like I understand other people are very different like for. So. 24:24.60 Jala Zombi gets the warm fuzzies but also still wants to do things and like for me, it's like they're the fuzzies are are like 2 seconds and I'm I'm over that now. So. 24:31.12 Zombi I think the fuzzies for me just add to the experience like I treat as 1 whole long thing where the fuzzies are part of the experience as well. Like the fuzzies are like a sexual portion for me too and maybe that's why it's longer. 24:41.12 Jala Well absolutely well absolutely because for use and true demiexual like you need that going into it. So like you having more of that is only going to make it better for you. So so that's ah, that's that's a question. 24:47.90 Zombi Yes, yes, yes. 24:53.57 Zombi Yes, absolutely yeah. 24:57.65 Jala Like ok so I know that we we haven't got to experience so experiential part yet but like as a demisexual person who says that their you know refractory period or whatever is is longer. You know like your resolution period does that mean that like your second time around. In the same evening session. Whatever you want to call. It is better than the first one because you got those extra hormones going or what. 25:20.55 Zombi And it can be. It's definitely one of those it depends on the situation thing like if my partner is still able to continue because I can't really feel super satisfied unless I get them to finish multiple times so during the rest period I get everything else that I need like the cuddles and everything. But. 25:40.70 Zombi Um, more often than not I'd say the second time is better because I have all that buildup. Um, the first time is great, but the second time is better, but sometimes the second time doesn't really get to where I need to go. 25:48.80 Jala Ya see whereas for me because I like the lead up so much I like all of the anticipation and the desire and you know just like all the wanting all the flirting all of the you know thinking. Ah, head to what's going to happen and then the beginning foreplay stuff like all of that is what I like best and so for me like that first time is going to be the best 1 and I'm going to have diminishing returns on every subsequent you know round if you will because I prefer all that other stuff. So like you know that's that's. And here you go. There's vastly different situations for 2 different people on this podcast Marcus is just kind of. We have not given you time to talk yet. 26:28.95 Marcus I I'm I'm no yeah I'm just I'm just taking this all in no because for me what I find really interesting is that it depends on you know, being polyamorous. It depends on the partner and the kind of and the kind of you know, ah reciprocation that goes on with the partner I'm with. Like I have one who only experiences reciprocal arousal in the first place so that's a whole other like issue like she actually won't get turned on unless I'm kind of already there and then we're just kind of piggybacking off of each other and then I have another partner who ah. Like is largely asexual and then tends to to use their own words have like cat inhe moments. So it's just kind of like okay right? This is happening um, but then also um has some kind of reciprocal arousal just because it's me sometimes which. 27:27.62 Marcus You know Pat myself in the back a little bit but um, it's just kind of it's a little bit. It's fascinating to hear them talk about it. Um, and then like and then some and then I have another partner long distance partner where things are just a little bit more you could say it's more standard but even then like for me personally like. I don't know. There's not a whole lot of I love cuddling. But also I really like sex so like one does not necessarily have to lead to the other but I will enjoy I will enjoy both a lot. So. It's just It's interesting how it plays out depending on who I'm with. 28:04.48 Jala Well and it's the spoiler spoiler alert to everybody listening all of us took a little kink test which I'll link in the show does before we started and as Marcus is talking about that I'm like well that makes sense given the results. 28:04.90 Zombi And both are good. Yes. 28:22.36 Jala So and I'm sitting here thinking about I'm like you know that all of it all of what we're talking about makes sense because of like those results from from that test actually. 28:31.20 Zombi I yeah I'm looking at Marcus is in specific now and yes, very much. So. 28:38.95 Marcus It? Yeah yeah, it's it's It's pretty interesting to look at Ah, it's funny to see how that factors in because yeah I mean non-monogamist at the top but then also like some of the other things that are at the lower percentages is like yeah I could see that. So. It's interesting to to go through and it also some of it does line up with my own actual kink experience and some of it totally doesn't but it's more reflecting How I feel about those things now versus how I felt about them when I was doing them. So. 29:08.16 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure. So absolutely a listeners should take a look at that ah kink test I will again put that in the show notes if you want to take a look for yourself and kind of do that as a self-reflection experiment. So um. I'm actually going to skip over talking about the sexual psychology because I feel like we're going to camp out on that. So I'm just going to cover real quick health benefits of sex and then we'll go back because like this is just going to be like rapid fire. So what happens when you have sex or masturbate it boosts your immune system. Ah, in the study people who had sex 1 to 2 times a week had significant boosts in antibodies versus people who were not sexually active. It lowers systolic blood pressure. This is regards to the actual full sexual act masturbation does not provide that benefit. It counts as exercise it burns five calories per minute which is four more calories per minute than playing Tv or you know, um or playing Tv watching Tv or playing a video game so you know what you have to do folks. It's also set down the controller or the remote for a little bit. 30:19.12 Marcus And unless you're using vr. 30:19.99 Jala Um, I Just realized I I could I just realize Controller could be remote Also anyway um I know I know there's also like if you haven't we you have we moats anyway. 30:25.11 Zombi And also you can use a controller arm out. 30:26.93 Marcus Um, unless you're under 3 years with vr because we are these thing. 30:34.33 Jala A lowering risk of heart attack and osteoporosis via balancing of estrogen and testosterone in your system lessening sensations of pain Orgasms can actually block pain which anybody who has had physical pain during sex can tell you that which yes, um. 30:53.71 Jala Stimulation without Orgasm also seems to lessen sensations of pain such as Menstrual Cramps chronic pain symptoms such as such as Arthritis pain and even headaches so keep having sex even when you get old it will help you um it improves. Ah right right. 31:08.33 Zombi I like that this is good news. 31:11.20 Marcus Absolutely. 31:12.78 Jala It improves sign female at birth bladder control. So 30% of assigned female at birth folks suffer incontinence at some point during their lives so that's almost a third of a seinfield but female at birth people who have this problem. It it improves your bladder control in the long term because of the strengthening of the pelvic floor. Yes, yes, absolutely ah, so improves your sleep via release of prolactin which is a hormone. 31:30.68 Zombi Remember to do your kegels people. 31:42.81 Jala It reduces stress and anxiety between intimacy with your partner as well as various hormone releases and empirical evidence also links masturbation to increased levels of sexual and marital satisfaction physical and psychological health. There's even evidence the masturbation. Significantly decreases the risk of developing prostate cancer among assigned male at birth folks over the age of 50 ah note that in this study the assigned male at birth folks who masturbated 21 times or more during a month had significant boosts. You must become industrious, folks! 32:17.90 Marcus So basicallyally, what this thing is saying is an I'm immortal and yeah or at least that's not what's gonna kill me. So yeah, so cool I'll take it. 32:22.72 Jala Yeah I love it I Love it. That's great. So now yeah, exactly. So yeah I mean hey anything's a win right? So ok. So. 32:35.95 Marcus Right? exactly. 32:39.89 Jala Ah, moving right? along some fundamentals of sexual psychology and we can talk about this and then talk about all of those wonderful questions. We never got to before so sex is a primary driver for most people it causes our brains to become pleasure seeking and describes so physiological. So So sociological. Psychological representations of the self. So um, it reflects the self and it also is pleasure seekking. Yes, sex is a way of lessening our alienate. This is a quote I'll I'll tell you from who later on ah so sex is a way of lessening. Our alienation isolation and aloneness by physically connecting with penetrating or being penetrated by another person at the most primal level of existence sex substantiates humanizes and incarnates existence it produces. Joy. Love. Comfort affection and sometimes ecstasy sex like romantic love is a constant reminder of our irrationality and its sway over our hard-won rationality. It is a reminder of our inescapable physical Embodiment. It is humbling to our spiritual Hubris and it is dangerous. The concept of safe sex is an oxymoron sex when fully engaged in is always risky business possible Pregnancy disease injury even death accompany the sexual act on the physical level. 34:14.75 Jala Falling in love obsession rejection abandonment loss of self fear of annihilation psychosis and the manic madness of ecstasy are all potential psychological side effects of sex 1 passionate. Spontaneous sexual encounter can change the course of a life for better or worse at some deeper level sexuality is intimately linked with mortality with birth and death. This association is depicted in Freud's poetic notion of Eros and thanatos. The 2 fundamental instinctual forces of human existence in which the positive sexual life instinct eros does eternal battle with the negative death instinct thanatos sexuality fights against death affirming life ultimately death defeats sex. But instinctual sexual energy or Eros whether expressed in the creation of children. Artistic work caring relationships or heroic accomplishment trumps death by transcending it in the future. Naturally taking a vow not to engage in sexual behavior does not cause sexual instinct to simply disappear as the apparently perverse sexual proclivities of some celibate priests prove it finds expression in other ways, some positive and creative and others negative and destructive. 35:41.72 Jala This is an excerpt from the psychology of sexuality by Stephen a diamond ph d I will put the link in the show notes for folks to read it. So that's a large chunk of stuff to talk about. It is a lot to talk about. 35:52.64 Marcus So that is a lot. 35:56.26 Zombi And I want to get my silly out of the way but I can't I can't find it now because words are hard for a dyslexic. 1 of them had something to do with like I wouldn 1 thing you said made me think flesh prison and I just needed to say that really badly. 36:10.48 Marcus Ah, much prison. 36:14.90 Zombi Like it helps you with your flesh prison I don't know I wish I could find it because ah. 36:18.60 Jala Ah, yeah, yeah, so um, that's because we um have inescapable physical embodiment I'm pretty sure that's the quote you're talking about. Yeah. 36:29.30 Zombi And yes that is it I was just seeking flesh prison. 36:34.60 Jala Yes, it is our flesh prison correct and we're doing the best with it that we can dang it. Absolutely. So yeah, but I like this because it touches on the fact that like um, it is. 36:35.67 Marcus Ah, yeah, means not. 36:37.63 Zombi Exactly we're doing our gosh artist. 36:50.36 Jala Basically a wild act of rebellion against Death. It's like the ultimate proof of us being alive because it is in in expressing our sexuality and not necessarily like in a physical act of sex with a partner but like creation in general. Be it an artistic creation. Be it. You know like some heroic act that you do that saves another person or whatever it is that you do These are all different embodiments of the sexual drive and those things are basically in essence what makes us human. You know I mean it makes us living things part of the animal Kingdom animals Also do these kinds of things as well to a certain extent. They can act selflessly. You know for reasons that we cannot fathom you know out of love and Loyalty. You know things like that. You've always heard like the stories of. The little pupper who has grown up with this child and you know risked its life or you know actually passed away trying to save its child or whatnot. You know those kinds of things. So like this is a ah kind of. Living being thing but it's also like a higher living being thing and like you know we express things in in kind of a larger degree of ways than other Creatures. Do. 38:15.96 Marcus So yeah though, although also like something to remember is that you know a lot of like I mean you started to mention like animals Express a lot of these types of emotions you know. 38:30.56 Marcus Whether like in ways that we don't recognize and sometimes in ways that we do like I saw a thing talking about how elephants have funerals you know and they have like mourning periods you know and um, you know and how. 38:43.38 Marcus You know, various different primates have like you know, family groups and nesting places and things like that that they actually returned that they were're return to after a long time wolves mate for life with one you know wolves are notoriously monogamous in the animal Kingdom things like that. It's Fascinating. It's just amazing and yeah like humans we. Intellectualize a lot of these very similar drives. But we're in a lot of ways we're not that different. So. 39:08.49 Jala No, and that's the thing too is that like if you stop and think about it most of these creatures that are expressing things like you know the and the elephants that have funerals and will go back to honor their dead and things like that. Um those are. Also animals that like humans will recreationally have sex. They actively will go and do that for not a procreation reason you know and you know there's lots and lots of um animals that will have sex with whoever it doesn't even Matter. It's not even like um. You know it's not a reproductive act because they're you know a dude with another dude or whatever you know so mm so you know like it's It's ah, a trait that we do share with animals. 39:49.92 Marcus So yeah, exactly bonobos are famous for that. So. 40:00.37 Jala I think that it's easier for humans to interpret it as you know like the broader swath of like making great music or making great artwork or becoming a fantastic dancer or whatever you're doing. That's a creative endeavor writing that novel you know. Ah, whatever it is that you're doing composing that shot if you're doing photography um all of those are also creative acts that stem from the same drive you know because you are still hitting those pleasure centers you are still releasing those same hormones the same way that you do when you are having sex. So. 40:44.70 Zombi I'm very happy for the mute button because I keep getting giggly at things like ah flesh prison and pleasure centers and skin hunger. They just keep making me giggle so much. It is. 40:52.76 Jala Skin Hunger is a great a great phrase I'm sorry I'm I am all for it. Yes, skin Hunger I understand this feeling. So. 41:00.21 Marcus Skin hunger is real as fuck know skin hunger is real as fuck like I cannot even begin to tell you there have been so many times when like I'll you know with 1 particular partner I'll be cuddling or whatever just be like oh my god why wait like why did we like. 41:00.40 Zombi I Only want to call it skin hunger from now on. 41:19.97 Zombi I Oh I love that I I like partners that are like I need skin- on skin contact with you. No barrier between us just like to hold each other I just need to feel your skin to get spied and. 41:20.60 Marcus Why and we bother going out. You know if we just wanted to be here. You know? So yeah, absolutely yeah. 41:34.40 Marcus Right? exactly? yeah. 41:37.97 Jala Yeah, yeah I have not looked up anything about it but like I feel that there are probably studies that have affirmed that certain biological things occur in our brain when we are touching skin versus cloth. So you know, um. I would not be surprised to hear that if that were true. 41:57.38 Marcus Oh that is absolutely true and I can tell you it actually links back to it links back to a lot of things that happened between babies and their parents. Um, yeah yeah. 42:04.00 Jala Oh yes, Yes, you're right? That's that's correct because of like the they. That's why they encourage babies to be on bear skin. That's right. 42:11.85 Marcus Exactly because of like oxytocin mainly oxytocin that's like the one of the biggest ones but also like a whole bunch of different endorphins and serotonin and everything like that get released via specifically skin- on skin tomp but specifically skin on skin contact and it's it's. Remarkable How that does not go away so it is and it has nothing to do with. You know it has nothing to do with um you know a parent and child response. It's just a human thing. So. 42:40.29 Jala Yeah, well and then too like when you were talking about your grandmother um something that is true is that when it comes to statistics and stuff when people get older. They are often interacted with less in general but also touched less So like. 42:57.87 Jala A grandmother or grandfather becoming more affectionate makes sense because they don't get the same amount of skin contact. Otherwise yeah, yep. 43:04.46 Marcus Yeah, and also they're left alone a lot of the day they don't go to work anymore. They're just at Home. You know? So yeah, when the gradkids when the grandkids come Over. There's like oh my gosh you know? of course they want like all the hugs and you know the. All the stereotypical like you know, pinching the cheeks and you know giving way too many kisses and everything like that and the kid getting annoyed. So So yeah, ah I mean yes and no like my like I mean I haven't experienced it as a you know myself in a long time because I haven't been that annoyed child. But. 43:26.43 Jala Um, this sounds like this is speaking from experience. 43:38.00 Marcus You know when I you know the last time I went home for Thanksgiving yeah, all the kids came in Grandma was all over every single one of them. You know? So yeah, it's absolutely true and some of them would just be like ah you know so yeah. 43:52.32 Jala And later on in life. They will go oh I remember when my Grandma did x or whatever and then be like I should have not been squirming away from her anyway. 43:56.91 Marcus As right exactly right? Yeah I know exactly and yeah and then and then Grandma dies and then we're all at the funeral just like oh she used to give the best hugs you know? So yeah, so. 44:09.31 Jala Yeah, yeah in the future on this podcast next month we will be talking about ah death positivity. So on the note of of death things we will be talking about that as another episode which I feel is a good natural follow to this episode. So so anyway, um, yeah. 44:30.15 Zombi And actually if I can say something like not to stay on the death topic. Um, but there's I know that you've been researching things like ah burials and everything 1 thing that happened to me um, not because of covid but my lolo my grandfather on my filippito side. Passed away in 2019 whenever everything was starting and they had to of course preserve his body which I'm normally against preservation like kind of like a natural decaying state. However, they were vacationing in the Philippines and I was thinking about how grateful I was that they had that preservation available so that I could fly over and say goodbye in person. Unfortunately the entire time. Um his casket was covered by glass because you know it is a very hot country and you know bugs could unfortunately get in and go around but whenever we took him to the cremation home. They finally removed that glass and I was able to touch him and the absolute amount of relief I could feel. Having that skin to skin contact finally being able to touch him and say goodbye. It was everything to me. 45:31.93 Jala Yeah, and like again this is not to continue on with the death topic but it actually relates to this one too which is why that one's coming up after this one. Um, so there are countries in which. The practice. The regular practice is to basically preserve the body and then keep the body at home and like these people will sleep in the bed next to the body and they will have it in a chair and they will feel comforted by the fact that that that body is still there that remnant of you know. The person that they loved is there because they can have that tactile experience and they can still see that they are physically in you know in the house with them and that's something that in the west a lot of people find you know quote unquote creepy or whatever because like we are very very death averse in the west. And as a result like that's that's you know, just wild soundunding to people over here. But it's 100 % natural and you know part of how folks can work through their grief better honestly in a lot of ways in other places because by then. Denying that death is a thing and by not trying to confront it face to face like there's just a way that you can just hang onto that grief and never process it and we'll be talking about that in more detail in like a month so like hold hold your horses on that. But you know again this looping back to this it all comes into that skin contact. 47:00.25 Jala Um, you know that physical presence and you know the need for that that we have as just living beings. 47:12.11 Zombi I Oh I was muted but I was agreeing. 47:14.19 Jala 1 went silent I was like everyone is very quiet. 47:19.18 Marcus I Had to take a deep breath. You know I was like whoo. Okay, yeah. 47:22.51 Zombi Oh my. 47:26.30 Jala Yeah I mean like um, like that that is going to be a very good episode and it's not going to be like super morose I Promise Um, it actually has been very interesting and enlightening line of study. But ah, let's go ahead. And skip over to some of the experiential questions so we can knock some of these out I am looking forward to chatting with you Both about this. So What types of attraction and sexuality are most frequent for you and we've kind of talked about this like intersperse between this episode and last. 47:56.73 Jala So um, it's it's difficult because like types of attraction. We already talked about that last time um by and large the ways that I find myself mostly um, drawn towards people is ah intellectual level like if I can. 48:16.54 Jala Have really good conversations with them like all the folks that I ever have on this podcast I Love having conversations with Y'all That's why you're on my show. Um I Also really like it when I see eye to eye with folks and we can just like understand even if we come from very vastly different situations. Understanding each other without having to jump through hoops to explain is so fucking amazing and that's one of the things that I love about both of you is because like ah with both of you I have that kind of emotional connection on a way that I don't with necessarily with. All these other people. Even if I have really good. You know, um conversations with Them. We may or may not have that same degree of like understanding without words. So um, there's that um otherwise. I Just get really enthusiastic about people and sometimes like that's absolutely not like um you know like an attraction in like a way that is um, you know like that becomes sexual because as we were talking about on the last episode about attraction attraction does not necessarily equate. Wanting to do sexual things. It just means that like you you are drawn to this person to have some kind of interaction with them and like you know there's various ways in which I get enthusiastic about people because of things that they make because of different ways in which we connect as Aforementioned. Um. 49:44.28 Jala It can be like a physical thing but like I if I if I like somebody's physical form that doesn't necessarily mean that I want to like actively go seek them out So I don't think that that's actually a big draw for me I mean that helps but it's not like my primary thing you know, usually it's more on the mental emotional level. Whether or not we can connect and insofar as Sexuality. Um, that's that's tough what ways in which my sexuality ah manifests itself. Well for me since I've done poll dance and things like that before it can come out in different ways of doing dance. Ah, it can be in the stroke of a brush if I'm doing painting and I'm really caught up in the moment. It can also be again like intensely wonderful conversations with people. It can be um, you know, actually physically jumping at my partner because I I do not. Mince words. Let's say it that way. Yeah I do not mince words I mean like um, just so on my test My my top things were like very you know in your face dominant type of things. So ah, that's how I am. 50:45.80 Marcus So nice. 50:45.94 Zombi Hell yeah, get it. 50:58.10 Zombi You know what you want and you go out and get it. That's great. Yeah. 51:00.68 Marcus Damn right. 51:02.49 Jala I Go get what I want I I You do not? You do not have to wonder what I think about you. So. 51:07.20 Zombi Exactly I love that I love people that are easy to communicate with and they don't mean yeah they don't men's words they outbeat around the Bush. It's like you know where you stand. 51:15.31 Marcus Um, exactly yeah. 51:17.62 Jala Well I mean at least that way you can cope with it rather than go I don't know what that do you know? Oh how do I feel like I don't have enough energy time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so so I mean like ah it's pretty. 51:20.52 Zombi Yes. 51:20.73 Marcus Yeah, yeah, there's there's no, there's no will they won't they with that. It's just like oh this is what it is. Okay, yeah. 51:34.10 Jala Forthright but like also different ways it can express itself as just different ways of um, connecting with people So like yeah again for me a lot lot of it. These days is just conversations really really good conversations are a way of connecting with people. Um, that I feel are productive and you know make me feel closer and probably releases hormones. Although I don't have any you know like nodes or anything hooked up to me on Monitors. So Zombi. Yeah. 52:01.80 Marcus I wouldn't that be funny wouldn't that be funny if we did they just did that every hell there Yeah nobs coming talking like. 52:03.95 Zombi Yes, hi I was thinking about nodes after you said that? ah I'm I'm very much similar, especially in the terms of conversation. Um, really good conversation I Freaking love talking to y'all so much. It's. Very exciting for me. Um, but also similarly with you in you know, painting or dancing I don't do either of those but with me it's cooking I find cooking very sexy, not even the like let me Wow Wow The way that you peel that those carrots is. 52:27.88 Jala Oh yeah. 52:37.98 Zombi Sending juices to my loins I Oh no by it thinks cooking is incredibly sexy and then the act of eating it afterward watching someone consume or consuming something myself is like just a passionate thing for me. 52:48.17 Jala Well especially when they're really enjoying whatever it is and like and then for me too like if I'm watching somebody else who is cooking and they are really good at what they're doing like they they are masterful in their technique of whatever it is that they're doing or. They don't know anything about what they're doing and they are looking at that recipe and they are burning the water but they are trying real hard like that is so freaking adorable and I am a hundred percent there for it and I'm just like oh let me help you you poor child but also like this is also the best. So. 53:17.55 Zombi Yes, yes. 53:20.66 Marcus And no, that's that that is I can relate on the cooking I do a lot of cooking so I've I have had people tell me that when I cook for them. They find that to be a very sexy thing because and partially it's like and like 1 of the things that it does for me is that i. Um, a more I tend to be a very caring and nurturing kind of person when it comes to partners. So I love cooking for people and I love you know, kind of taking care of them in that way. Um, but yeah, people have said that they really enjoy like watching me cook because they well in 1 case anyway, they kind of get off on. Like watching the technique and like the timing of things to make sure it's like okay this is this is going to take this amount of time. Okay, we got to do this while that's you know doing you know whatever and um, and yeah and making sure that everything goes on the plate and you know have good presentation and all that other stuff things I learned from restaurants. 54:17.35 Zombi Yeah, getting me kind of excited here. Marcus. 54:19.12 Jala I right? I was like again, there're that you're looping back to that mastery thing that I mentioned you know like you're not the the burning water person. You're the one who just knows their shit right. 54:31.61 Marcus I mean I I know I know a decent amount of shit. But yeah, no, um, it's ah yeah, it's It's fun for me because I get to show off a little bit but then also yeah, watching somebody actually really eat and enjoy what I made for them. Is really cool because it's just like it's ah it's a way of bringing somebody pleasure that is not necessarily sexual but can dovetail into it depending on how you think about it and I think that that's really cool. So yeah. 55:00.89 Zombi And hell yeah, one of my mentors when I was learning how to cook would often tell me cooking is like the ultimate expression of Love. It's like I Love you therefore I feed you I Love you therefore I provide you with nourishment so you can. You can really see the love and attraction in so many ways whenever it comes to cooking for someone or even cooking for yourself like I Love you therefore I feed you myself? yeah. 55:24.74 Jala Well and something to tie into a very very far in the future episode when we talk about different forms of like food production. That's that's a thing we're going to talk about that. Um. We will eventually also be talking about just microbiomes on your skin and ah different ways in which the the environment that you're in the microbiomes on your skin living on your skin will change the flavor of your food. So there's a thing in Korea it's it's a phrase called sunat sonat is. The hand flavor is is what that translates to and it's basically each individual person's skin gives off a certain flavor and so you you know when people say like yeah I can't make this the way grandma used to make it. That's because you don't have the same sonmat. You literally cannot because you do not have the same hand flavor that your grandmother does and so you will never make the same the the recipe the same way. Even if you have the same ingredients in everything because the environment in which it's being produced and the like microbes on the skin like literally changes all of that. They did like this whole study where they had a bunch of bakers. They gave all these bakers the exact same ingredients and had all of them make different breads and every one of those breads tasted totally different and it's because the different sunmat from everybody's hands changed the flavor. Yeah yeah, like we will talk about it on an episode. 56:44.38 Marcus What? what. 56:50.60 Jala Later on like I'm still doing I'm still doing lots of research, but it's a thing. It's a thing. 56:51.74 Marcus Oh my guyage I I at there as you were explaining that with my jaw just literally on my desk like I What that is amazing. Um, that's fascinating. 56:53.44 Zombi Ah, yeah, we are first of all. 57:00.72 Jala Yes, yes. 57:02.73 Zombi Yeah, that's amazing I cannot wait to hear more about that. But in my head as well as you were explaining that my brain just kept repeating skin Hunger Skin hunger. 57:08.12 Marcus Absolutely. 57:17.16 Jala Skin Hunger literally goes into this son mat the hand flavor that you've got for whatever it is that you're making and literally like yeah yeah, it all ties in that's that's why I'm covering all of these different things over time is because I'm you know I'm pulling it all together folks. You know this is all parts of. 57:23.26 Zombi And that's incredible. Ah yeah. 57:32.13 Marcus Um, that is amazing. 57:35.47 Jala Parts of the self parts of wellness parts of understanding you know and appreciating what you have you know? So so yeah, um, and the thing is is that like when you're making food. That's a continuation of life. You're bringing forth something that is going to guarantee another day if you will so again, that's another. 57:42.56 Marcus That is amazing. Good. 57:55.18 Jala Um, Death-d deying act if you will to make food that you know prolongs your life makes you healthier etc brings pleasure all of that. So. 58:02.53 Marcus Yeah, to do that that right I make really fucking good food. No but I mean hey you know I if that helps I'm all for it. But no, but it's It's very I think it's important. Yeah, like the way that we make. 58:02.82 Zombi So what you're saying right now is just more proof that Marcus is indeed immortal. 58:22.28 Marcus Food especially if we're preparing for some for hang it for somebody else. Yeah, the way that we make food as an expression of love I think is really fascinating because you know in the end food is fuel but there's the fact that we can make it more than that depending on how we prepare it I think that the. Creative side of that is that's a whole fascinating field and yeah, when you're doing that for somebody that you really deeply care about. Um, it's they know like they know that you care about them be because of how you because of how you feed them and I think that's really important right? yeah. 58:54.10 Jala But it's in It's the the the proof is in the pudding if you are making a pudding. Yeah so. 58:58.66 Zombi Oh my gosh. Why and it's like also how that person that you're feeding feels about you because maybe you cooked something absolutely dreadful but they see that you put the effort into it. You put your passion into it. You tried your gosh darndest and. 59:01.25 Marcus Exactly exactly? yeah. 59:16.20 Zombi They end up. You know they're honest with you. It's like this tastes bad. But oh my gosh I adore you for doing this action for me. 59:22.59 Marcus Right? Yeah, exactly So super important. Um to jump back on that question though in terms of what types of attracting or sexuality are most frequent. Ah for me personally I'm a super visual person. 59:39.74 Marcus So Aesthetic attraction happens all the time I am aesthetically attracted to so many people it's kind of ridiculous across gender lines I look at people I'm just like hell yeah now that being said I am sexually attracted to very very few people. Um and that. And it's interesting. How that's kind of developed over the course of my life. Maybe we can get into that a little bit later but that has actually something that has changed a lot as I've kind of dissected how I experience attraction I've kind of really separated my sexual attraction from my aesthetic attraction which I think is ah it's been a fascinating process. Good and it's been very good for me because it's kept me. It's helped kind of like ground me a little bit more when it comes to my own sexuality and especially my gender as I've express as I have continued to explore that too. Um, but yeah I would say like aesthetic attraction is probably my most frequent. Type of attraction that comes up in terms of sexuality though. Ah, that's different. Um I can't say that I know exactly what is the most frequent type of sexuality that occurs for me. Um, don't know exactly how to answer that question. 01:00:57.00 Jala That Well, that's that you know, um, that's Fine. You don't have to answer that question like um. You are free to answer or not answer however works but like ah yeah I Guess like the the question about Sexuality is more like sensuality like skin hunger oral and visual stimuli or is it like. 01:01:18.87 Jala Um, actual like the act of flirting or images or seduction stuff or is it. You know the physical the intimacy or is it. You know, whatever like what is it about it that yeah so. 01:01:29.77 Marcus Oh in that case, well in that case it definitely becomes like anything tactile I'm going to say is going to be probably my primary driver there. Um, yeah I'm. 01:01:36.10 Jala Yeah I will say I am a sucker a terrible sucker for a very good voice I Love a good voice and I just I will just sit there and just I will have feelings about a good voice even if I have no idea what they look like here. Anything if it's a good voice I will just sit like I'm like okay there are times when I have found like an audio book narrator that I really like and I will just listen to whatever it is that they but I don't even know what the fuck the book is I Just want to hear them So like that's definitely a thing for me. I. 01:02:09.74 Marcus I I had a partner back in the day. Okay, you know I forgot the actor's name but the guy who played Chikota on Star Trek I Forgot the actor's name. Yeah I had an I had a partner way back in the day when his the Star Trek show that he was on was. 01:02:18.96 Jala Yes, yeah I I don't remember the name either. But yes. 01:02:29.81 Marcus Premiering and this partner she looked at me and she said I would listen to that man read the dictionary I do not care what he says and I was like okay yeah, all right? So yeah, yeah. 01:02:38.77 Zombi That that's pretty cute. Um I think a huge important thing for me as a demisexual especially is just being able to experience in full that other person especially on the sexual level so tantric touch and tantric sex is really important for me. 01:02:56.97 Zombi I Just went to as a whole experience a other person you know with or without the physical connection of like penetration or whatever. But um, just having them having that closeness is a very sexual and fulfilling and spiritual thing for me like. Looping back to the spirituality that we mentioned at the beginning and. 01:03:15.13 Jala Yeah, yeah, and like I I mentioned it on the attraction episode. So so and I had a lot of feelings and when I was like oh actually. 01:03:26.15 Jala Life is sad and depressing because now I'm a caretaker and it's really hard to fit in any time for me and like all of my feelings in my attractions and whatever and I feel like I'm in a box. Um, you know I had I had some long conversations with some folks including Zombi about this but like I'm like you know I think it's just because actually. Um, in some ways my father because my dad used to be my cuddle buddy when I was little and you know so we've always had like that close physical contact and so like since I've been married Dave or since you know Dave's been around like I give dave more of that physical contact and I actually think some of it is unconscious jealousy on my dad's part that he has to like come up and anytime I'm like giving Dave a hug or something he's like we don't like any of that hearing he has to come up and make a comment He's joking. He doesn't actually mean it but he also kind of probably means it on some level because he's like missing that contact. So I've been more intentional about giving him like physical contact and and stuff like that you know and um, that seems to have been helping so that. Talking about it out loud and then further discussing it and analyzing it has led me to find ah kind of a solution for at least a little bit of some of the issues that we continue to struggle with being um, a couple that also is taken care of. 01:04:49.97 Jala Elderly parents that are right there you know so. 01:04:53.52 Zombi I'm so happy to hear that help though. That's awesome. 01:04:54.32 Marcus Yeah, definitely throw that poor guy. 01:04:57.66 Jala Um, yep, and it's just because yeah well I mean like and that's that it's it is it. You know it's like oh actually now that I think about it. Oh My poor dad. Actually you know like I didn't think. But it that way and he would never never voice it because it would sound really weird and awkward for him to say it. You know because my dad is awkward with words to begin with. But um, yeah, so like having reflected on that has improved both of our lives. So. 01:05:23.92 Zombi Hell yes. 01:05:24.57 Marcus Yay good. We like we like growth. We let growth around here. Yeah, absolutely. 01:05:25.41 Jala Yeah, absolutely so moving along with the oh do we have anything else to talk about on the attraction and sexuality that are most frequent Marcus I kind of interrupted you you were talking. Did you. 01:05:38.40 Marcus Oh well actually um I do want to touch on the spirituality part. 1 of the things I was saying earlier is how much like how I think about sex has changed having left the church and having been had it being raised in it for a little under half my life at this point and then having been out of it for the last. 01:05:56.15 Marcus 20 how long have I been out ofur I guess about 24 years um like there was a bit of a deconstruction period and stuff like that. But then also just me being like nope I'm done um, one of the things that I found really interesting is that what I said earlier about like. Being very tactile. That's something about me that has that is definitely a core of my sexual identity that did not change whether I was no matter what the church ever said or and or no matter how indoctrinated or whatever I was into whatever shame spiral that the church was throwing at me before. Something that has been a constant. The whole time is the kind of is the is the tactile need like the as a core of like my sexuality and I think that that's pretty fascinating. 01:06:46.48 Jala I Yeah oh and something else that I didn't mention earlier. Um, we did not talk about how training physical activities can also be like an expression of sexuality because it's you know? um. Ah, thing that definitely ah plays a part like we talked about it on the attraction episode a little bit sex after having a great workout session is amazing and um so that's definitely a thing and and ah true doing training with a partner that you have is also amazing, but even just doing stuff. 01:07:07.49 Marcus Yes. 01:07:17.23 Marcus Um, oh my God Best fork me ever. 01:07:18.94 Jala Right? right? and then like um, you know, just doing physical activity in general like granted not read it first when you feel like you're dying. Okay, but like if you keep it consistent and you know whatever you get to the point where your body is no longer terrified of the thing you're doing to it and gets used to it. 01:07:33.63 Zombi I mean I was I was about to say I'm a masochist for baby. Not that much. 01:07:33.69 Marcus Yeah, yeah. 01:07:38.66 Jala Well it it you you do even out over time and it's not like you know, like part of the the trick of training is you have to always be on that discomfort like a level of discomfort with it because. If you are not pushing your boundaries of what is comfortable to you. You are not going to grow and that kind of is true of a lot of things but it's also true of physical training like um, you're not going to increase the weight that you are lifting unless you are having like a few reps at the end that you are struggling with you know and constantly trying. New weights and you know pushing yourself right? So you have to push yourself in that just like you have to push yourself in all ways that you try to grow but you do get to the point where your body can handle it better. It adapts. So anyway. 01:08:25.89 Marcus I I will say really cool sex at is sex as a reward after a p after hitting a Pr at some good shit. 01:08:34.57 Jala There you go like that's something I didn't even think about like here's your your cookie is actually ah okay sorry I was going to make a stupid stupid stupid pun. 01:08:41.33 Marcus Um, yeah you say do you want you want some cake because we have cake. 01:08:42.77 Zombi No no, you should have continued because oh my God after I was actually working out I literally got a cookie I did that you to finish that. Ah. 01:08:54.84 Marcus Um, but we get out perfect. 01:08:57.64 Jala Ah I left you hanging on purpose exactly So ah and that is me. Okay, anyway, so but. 01:09:01.19 Zombi Cruel little cruelty. 01:09:02.62 Marcus Um, oh no, yeah yeah, ja jaless so today so today we learned that one of Jallless Kinks is edging now kidding? Yeah anyway. 01:09:12.11 Jala Yeah, there you go. So So yeah, so yeah, so um, that's all I got on that one but I did want to throw the training stuff out there. So yeah, moving right? Along. What is your sexual orientation and how does this play into your concept of your personhood. 01:09:32.52 Marcus I Now there's a good question I know you can go ahead. 01:09:34.21 Zombi I I kind of mentioned this you want to go first. Fracus. Okay, mine is short I kind of mentioned this on the um, the other attraction episode How my sexual orient sexual orientation is I am pansexual I am demisexual and I feel like that really suits me. You know I I didn't force it to be this way just kind of worked out really well that way because I'm also gender Fluid. So I feel like every portion of me is just a very fluid and adaptable human Um, so it just speaks more to how I can be you know ever changing and Adapt myself to whatever suits me. Best. So Whether it be a partner or it's. You know how I want to present myself to the world. 01:10:12.30 Jala Yeah, Def Marcus 01:10:16.11 Marcus That very cool. Um I would say like all right? So externally like for for somebody like people looking in who don't bother to give it any kind of a nuance people would say that my sexual orientation is heterosexual but it's really not um. Like I said I am aesthetically attracted to like everybody So I guess I can say I would say I'm panattracted but sexually speaking I tend to be sexually attracted to people who and I have to use have to I always have to phrase this carefully I am so I am most often sexually attracted to people who. Display traits to which I attribute femininity and I have and I say it specifically that way because there are some things that the general public does not consider feminine that I'm like hell yeah, that is you know so and but and a lot of it has to do with the things I consider feminine about myself and the things that I consider to be to not. 01:11:09.34 Marcus Have a gender at all and just I think are cool. Um, but like just to to give an idea I don't know if you if any of you have heard of the very popular streamer by the name of Finster but ah Finster is a sisma who cross-dresses and is so. Fucking hot I cannot stand it me me and I will I will definitely send you a link. Um, now me and my 1 partner Fay Simp over this man. So hard. 01:11:29.77 Jala Yeah, oh now I've now I've got to go look this person up or you've got to you've got a link share links in that. 01:11:44.78 Marcus And if we're just sitting there. We just stare at we're just like oh my fucking God This is this is unfair. It is unfair. How good this man looks and like for both of us being nonbinary. He also kind of lines up with how we want to exist in the world like physically and I'm just like ah that is unfair won't. 01:11:59.16 Jala So Well. So I have to insert just real quick when you are like people watching and like appraising folks if you will on the aesthetic level. And you're doing this with a partner of yours and you're just checking people out and going. Oh yeah, and like when you both nod your head and go like oh that's a good feeling. That's a good feeling. 01:12:19.65 Marcus Yeah, yeah, that is so affirming just like on so many levels? Yes, Absolutely yeah, but yeah, so ah. 01:12:20.60 Zombi That that is such a good feeling. Yes, hard or late. Yeah. 01:12:30.87 Marcus For how this plays into my concept of person that I touched on that a little bit a lot of the things that I find attractive in other people are the things that I would desire about myself like a lot of times a lot of times. Yeah I'm attracted to people based on attributes of theirs that I want for me, you know. And then some that I share with them like I'm attracted to a lot of athletes. You know I'm attracted to a lot of like fitness people. Um and but this like as far as the attributes that they have that I want or either that I share with them or that or that or things that I want to maybe improve about myself or have for myself. Ah, that applies to like every aspect of Attraction. You know, intellectual, emotional etc etc like all of that. Um, anybody who yeah people who have a high degree of emotional intelligence that is very attractive people who have a high degree of just you know. Intellectual acumen and know how to and have interesting ways of thinking those kinds of things are attractive to me, especially when they are on subjects that I'm already interested in. So yeah, Um, so yeah. 01:13:38.75 Jala So Marcus just low key said absolutely dig both of you. Ah. 01:13:41.59 Marcus I mean I wasn't I mean I mean yes, but yeah. 01:13:42.17 Zombi Oh. Ah, and I can also feel that a lot too. You put into words a lot of things that I feel and never really considered. 01:13:56.25 Jala Sorry for calling you out like that. But I knew that you wouldn't actually mind. Ah. 01:13:58.62 Marcus That's fine. It's fine. Yeah no I don't I I don't mind it all. In fact I think at some point you and I had had this conversation like via Va Pms or something. So yeah, so definitely. So I think that's. 01:14:07.51 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, so cool. Cool. So as for my sexual orientation. It has changed over time. Um I've talked about that before so I used to be it. 01:14:13.10 Marcus But all I have to say on that is. 01:14:24.42 Jala I can't even say that I felt one hundred percent Cis like there was ah there there was a time when I did at 1 point but then like I kept on seeing how I didn't fit into the box and I felt more and more like the box didn't fit me and then I was especially in my teen years I was really trying to figure out. What was going on I had major gender dysmorphia and I switched from female expression to wearing like all male clothes and then online I would do like role-playing online and stuff. And I started role-playing a male character and I was also like people assumed because I was playing a male character that I was also a male in real life and so um I just rolled with it because it was a lot easier for me as a teenager to just roll with it because I'm not going to meet these people anyway. So I thought and um, you know so I just went with it because to try to say no actually I'm and whatever like that felt like it would be more anxiety inducing to me and I was already struggling with that sense of identity. So um I just rolled with it and. Then you know like my expression was one hundred so hundred percent dude and it was just so gratifying to me when I was like crushed on by all these different people that I knew and I was everybody's man. Everybody's woman. Yeah, like I was everybody's everything and it made me feel. 01:15:55.35 Jala Um, affirmed to be both of those 2 things but I was like really questioning am I was I just born in the wrong body was I supposed to be a dude and like I kept on examining that and you know I just I didn't ever feel like that was the case that I I physically needed to you know. Ah, transition my gender or anything like that I didn't ever feel like that was the case but like I still had this struggle internal struggle about my gender forever and ever and ever and then I leaned real hard back into you know, being feminine for a long number of years. And then I kind of whiffled back and forth. It's just been this whole journey of like my gender and and through that gender expression. Also my expression of my sexuality. So for the vast majority of the time it was ah heterosexual with an identity of either female or male depending upon the time that you're talking about and then I. Settled On. No I'm actually just both of these damn things and that's just I've always been both of these damn things and the thing is is that like my attraction to other people like I am pan but um, again like my attraction starts first and foremost with like nonphysical. Formats. Um, when it comes to physical and behavioral tendencies and things I tend to gravitate towards whatever the opposite is of the gender expression that I am expressing at the moment and I've talked about before I don't really have like ah I don't have a gender feeling very often. 01:17:28.97 Jala I tend to either feel I am very female or I am very male now right now. Ah in my current incarnation I tend often towards female more often than I do male. So my preferences tend to be for. Ah, people who express some kinds of ah behaviors or whatever that register in my brain as being masculine when I'm in feminine mode. But when I'm in masculine mode I don't like. The the masculine presentation. So like it's it's this whole weird thing where it wiffles around a lot and so to me what that really expresses first off like the fact that I finally came to this conclusion of no I can actually be both and it's fine and like I'm both both of these things at different times. And understanding that and actually knowing no you you aren't some kind of weird person. A lot of people have these feelings actually and you aren't alone and there are other people that have this ah kind of situation like. Comforted me because you know for so long I just felt like I would never be understood you know and so when it comes to my sexuality. It's kind of like my sexuality had to basically reflect whatever was going on with my gender sense of the time. So. 01:18:55.34 Jala And I've already talked about before Dave is also pan also identifies as being more gender fluid in things but he doesn't have like that hard switch that I do where it's I'm female or a male you know, kind of presentation. And it's one or the other he doesn't have that hard switch but you know he does exhibit different aspects that to me register one way or the other and he tends to um exhibit those. Counterbalancing. Whatever it is that I'm doing just naturally with the way that we interact with one another. So that means that like um in my current situation. It works I am monogamous and I am in a monogamous relationship with someone who naturally balances out whatever it is that I am. Manifesting at the time and. 01:19:47.21 Zombi Ah, you'll make good partners I Love that and what an awesome way to experience yourself. 01:19:48.20 Jala Um, yeah, and like well in boy is it had has it been an exhausting fucking journey. Um, but but and really I mean like there you know during that period of time where I was you know, expressing myself as you know. 01:20:07.97 Jala Male like I was like no as a masculine person like you know like I have these preferences when it comes to ah you know sex and and all this and it changed over time depending upon what again depending upon what gender I was presenting. It changed what I was looking for because like as I've said on the various gender episodes like my psychology changes so it switches like the different different aspects of um, all of my attitudes and my behaviors and everything switch So when that happens like. 01:20:45.61 Jala It's kind of a natural flow that yes my sexuality and my sexual expression and preferences change. So but they still are these days more all encompassing and again I kind of feel like that's because at this point in my life like I. You know I've grown a lot I've come to accept a lot of things and learned oh actually a lot of these things that I didn't you know I didn't really consider them before because I was inheriting beliefs from society from my parents from whatever. 01:21:20.20 Jala You know from this super gendered household that I lived in and again like that super gendered ah household that I live in is the reason why I have a hard switch right? I have that hard switch from male to female because of that. Um super traditional household that I lived in. So. 01:21:29.90 Marcus Um, that makes sense. Yeah, um. 01:21:38.10 Jala Yeah, it's a wild ride so to talk about. It is very exhausting. 01:21:41.32 Marcus Well, you know it's a lot. Yeah and it's a lot to unpack like clearly but it's good that you have I mean it's It's amazing to me to hear how you've managed to figure out. Oh okay, this is where we are with everything that's like that is really. 01:21:41.88 Zombi And it sounded but it's really interesting to hear. 01:22:00.38 Marcus I am very happy for you that you've managed to like you know parse that about yourself and see where it comes from and see how you experience it I think that that's very very cool. So. 01:22:10.87 Jala Well and the thing is is that you know the sense of dysphoria continued until I got to that point and the the Dis ease and the sense that I would not be understood by anybody fucking ever. Um. All of those sensations that isolation feeling and all of that is part and parcel of not being able to unpack it all I didn't have words I didn't have the vocabulary for it I didn't have the ah scope you know like the perspective to really look in on that and. 01:22:42.44 Jala Understand and process everything and so um, that's again like part of why we're talking about all these things on these various podcast episodes is to help other people kind of get those gears turning and think about it and you know, kind of see where they lay. So. 01:23:03.37 Jala Next question have you ever had I know I know it's a lot. It's a lot. Ah so have you ever had a revelatory moment when you realize things about your attraction or sexuality that redefined how you view the world I already said mine. 01:23:04.15 Zombi That So I was unpacking that too. It was awesome to hear. 01:23:21.51 Jala I already I already talked about that. What do you all? think. 01:23:26.60 Zombi I don't think I ever had just one moment is the thing I think I've always been a very open person about who I am and what I like and how I feel but I will say again which I've kind of mentioned mentioned on the um masculinity episode a while back a lot of what helped me realize more of who I was what. Put words to to what I feel are web comics and this one in particular that really helped me understand my sexuality and made me realize yes, it's perfectly fine to like girls. Yes, it's perfectly fine to act this way or that way is a web comic called girlie by Jackie Lesnik um she's an amazing author. She. Did some amazing work I definitely said a link to it but I know that from speaking to her because I've met her while she was streaming on Twitch that a lot of people have also come to her and said the same kind of thing that this web comic helped a lot of people realize their sexuality and be okay with it. 01:24:57.90 Marcus Ah, but 1 thing I will say that definitely changed it 1 specific moment and ah, it's nowhere near as wholesome as what anybody else said it was the first time I got pegged that definitely changed how I felt about like everything. Um. It was it was pretty it was just like oh oh okay, this is a thing that I like actually apparently and it wasn't like I wasn't already open to the idea you know I trusted my partner and all that stuff but it was still like when it happened it was like oh that's why people like this. 01:25:35.85 Marcus You know it was ah I don't know it was pretty cool like like I knew all the biological stuff you know prostate stimulation and everything like that. But yeah, that was that was like a significant like that was a nexus event. You could say you know in terms of like how mysexuality developed as far as like. That's something I would say yeah redefined it a great deal and you know I've had other experiences since then you know being in the kink community seeing just like the wide variety of everything of of possibility in the kink community with regard to sexuality and with regard to like um. Asexual sexual expression within the king community that was actually a really big eye-opener for me so and just yeah, seeing the variety of how people can express and experience their sexuality things I would have never even you know never dreamed of prior to that biyette. That those would so those are would say ah the broad spectrum of kink stuff and yeah getting pegged the first time those would be the things that I would say definitely redefined how I view the world when it comes to my sexuality. So. 01:26:44.90 Jala And so and in talking about like the kink community in general. Um I have never been actively part of a kink community. But I've known various people who have been active in the kink community and like. I will say that right at first when I first met somebody who was really into the kink community I was like I felt intimidated my I bit like deer in the headlights like whoa I'm out of my depth here I don't even know I felt uncomfortable but it was uncomfortable because it was like I don't know. Anything about this thing right? And um, the thing about it though is that every single person that I have ever met who is in the kink community or has been in the kink community is so fucking patient and sweet and kind and they are not like at least the ones that I have come across. They have not been like um. 01:27:17.82 Marcus From the gap exactly. 01:27:36.44 Jala Gary the way that like I guess I was scared the first time that I met somebody that was from that community many many years ago and. 01:27:40.50 Zombi Absolutely because there's such a key focus on consent and communication. That's one of the biggest parts in my experience at the Kin Community there are gonna be people that are like. Ah, you know fake doms are a huge problem that are like no, there's no safe for it. No, you're gonna do whatever I say whenever I say because that's how a dom works like no absolutely not talk to anybody in any faction of the King community and they will say no, that's fake Dom um stay away from that is dangerous but they're sweet. 01:28:06.62 Marcus Yeah, and the other thing too is that literally every single person who's come into the kink community has experienced exactly what you said where you come and you're like I have no idea what the fuck is going on and you just feel completely like the first major kink event that I went to i. Felt completely out of my depth I had no idea what was going on at all and I was like well I um oh hey you know I just and I just sat and just sat in a corner and watched and that was all I could do for like a good for the whole night. Really. 01:28:43.73 Marcus Like the entire party I just sat there and watched and I was like okay you know. 01:28:50.81 Jala I Well to to bring it back from earlier. It's kind of like that moment of oh I did not realize when I woke up this morning that this is what I was going to be doing tonight. Ah, now we're here. 01:28:59.17 Marcus Right? Yeah, exactly? Yeah, no, that's exactly what it was I didn't know I was going to end up at that predict I didn't know that day that I was going to end up at that venue that evening. Because a bunch of friends of mine were talking about going to this going to this kinky club and I was like I don't know I'm working bla bla blah and it's a funny story that I love to tell it's brief. Basically I decided I was already moving living in Dc I was like all right? Well you know what wouldn't it be really funny is if as I was getting if you know if I ran into my friends on the metro on their way there right? and I shit you not I got off the train was going up the escalator I was a. About to hit the turnstyle swipe my card and leave and go up the hill to my and go up the hill to my apartment and literally right as I was coming to the top of the escalator they were coming the metro station and I was like all right guess I'm going with you all night. So yes, exactly. 01:29:55.42 Zombi It was the sign. 01:30:00.81 Marcus So speaking of redefining moments. That's another one. 01:30:01.54 Jala There you go. 01:30:05.11 Zombi Hell yeah surprisingly I've never experienced that level of like uncomfort or anything in the kink community I think because I was again partially due to web tunes like web comics exposed to it very early to me. It was all very normal people are like oh do you like. Are you vanilla? Are you kinky because you know kids ask each other that kind of stuff because they're silly kids but then they would describe things that they found Kiki I'm like no that sounds pretty normal to me. So I think I was desensitized kind of at a younger age that I didn't get that kind of shocked experience. 01:30:33.98 Jala Yeah I think that the like part of the thing though is that like Marcus has already mentioned that they had like an evangelical Christian background. You know, like growing up and I had a catholic father and a lutheran mother. So. And a very traditional household. So um, like our our kind of like experiences growing up were just wildly different than yours and. 01:30:58.76 Zombi And this is also very true. Yes. 01:30:58.83 Marcus I that and also and also remember I am older than both of y'all by a solid 10 years at least so I didn't have the internet until I was in my twenty s so there were no web comics you know, then you know there as. 01:31:13.90 Zombi True true. The Interend is a game changer. 01:31:17.87 Marcus Yeah, yeah, there was so much that you have access to that I had no idea existed until you know so. 01:31:21.67 Jala This is just more proof that Marcus is immortal because they don't look and we've we've talked about yeah we've we've talked about this before but they do not look whatever age they are claiming that they are yeah. 01:31:25.20 Zombi And exactly there we go. We're building the lore here. 01:31:39.42 Marcus I Just add an extra couple of this add a couple of extra digits to whatever I tell you man you know? well I mean you know I can't I can't just tell everybody that. 01:31:46.16 Zombi They're a vampire I knew it I knew it a sexy vampire. 01:31:55.51 Marcus To let it out slowly at least you know Society is not used to the idea of actual vampires and okay. 01:32:01.88 Jala So moving right? Well, that's why you're so damn good. Ok so. 01:32:03.65 Marcus I actually learned how to actually learn how to cook in 1835 and I'm kidding well over uply but 50 years of experience. 01:32:11.49 Zombi I Love this. We're actually building Lore This is beautiful. 01:32:16.53 Jala Yeah, we've got the law going so okay, anyway, so how how is your awareness of your attraction and sexuality colored your interactions with other people I'll actually throw in first and just say um, being aware. Of the self like this is it like I am I'm very very actively and have been very actively introspective for as long as I can remember and knowing myself better makes any interactions with other people feel more grounded. It feels um, also. More like in the case of attraction and sexuality. Um, it makes it more pleasurable when I'm talking to people and I am aware of the reactions and responses that I have to you know interactions with 1 or another person and that enriches. Those interactions and makes them more meaningful for me because I'm aware consciously of all of these different reactions and responses and you know like how how that feels as like a way of connecting to other people and. 01:33:25.95 Jala And Marcus. 01:33:30.64 Marcus I Sorry I was muted. Okay, ah yeah, so it has definitely changed a lot of things I mean it's changed my entire freakgging dating life First of all because you know there are some people who I just. Refuse to interact with you know at this point because of what I understand about myself now. Um, but also ah it has how do I put this there have been times when it has actually altered my sexual interaction with somebody. Like the way that I understand myself like okay so I was married for a while. Ah I'm divorced now. But when I was married I identified very when I first got married I have been identified very differently than I did by the time we separated I considered myself a cismale at the beginning you know. I Had no inclinations of like bisexuality or gender fluidity or pansexuality or anything like that when I got married and then over the course of it I discovered oh crap I'm non-binary. Oh hey I'm pansexual and that was like a journey. First of all, um. And dealing with that with my then spouse and trying to figure out you know? Okay, Well how are we going to handle that. But I mean we're a polyamorous so it was okay so we could like explore different things but it was still just like oh man. Um, ah like and it was a struggle I did it was a lot of journaling and stuff like that. But it altered. 01:34:59.71 Marcus How we interacted. Um and it ultimately that was part part of that was a part like that was one of the catalysts for that relationship ending The other catalyst was how my then spouse's gender and sexuality changed Also so it's kind of inevitable in that way. But um, yeah, like it's been very interesting to ah see how it bears out Anyway, all that to say Yeah, um, it's altered my interactions with other people a lot I. 01:35:38.76 Marcus Don't but for 1 now that I'm way more secure in it I don't like to use a neuro divergent term I don't mask in front of other people when I'm trying to when I'm you know I don't mask my gender or my sexuality when I'm on a date with somebody I will just. Exist and be and people can take that in. However, they will um and like in situations where I'm meeting people I don't you know I don't hide any part of who I am and people can kind of take it or leave it and I've come to just be fine with that. You know there are some people who um. I can kind of clock right away as this is somebody who I do not want to interact with based on what I know about myself, you know I think that's something that's that's ah, that's probably the biggest thing is that I'm a lot ah less likely to approach people as a result of. 01:36:32.62 Marcus How well I know myself at this point because you know that I am not going to I know that when I sometimes like it a lot easier for me to clock somebody be like I can already see things that totally will not jibe with me piece out. You know. 01:36:46.88 Jala And that's that's something that I will say too like because I've been so introspective since forever. Um, like ah when I was a teenager I didn't actively date until I was like 16 and everybody was like giving me shit about it. They're like well. Why don't you date somebody and I'm like I don't want to waste my time I just don't want to waste my time. Why am I going to waste my time and my energy and get into this whole thing when this person is just not going to jive with how I am like that's just not a thing you know so i. 01:37:21.97 Zombi Yeah, that's huge toward protecting your own piece and that's so important I'm glad that y'all are had a part where that feels so comfortable. 01:37:29.14 Marcus Yeah I Just yeah like my bullshit tolerance is just really really low. Well yeah, and it's funny big. 01:37:37.49 Jala When you get to that point when you get to that point where you just don't tolerate the bullshit anymore. Oh my God is it so freeing and so wonderful. But. 01:37:48.85 Marcus Yeah, um, yeah, it's funny now though because I will see somebody who like you know aesthetically I'm like oh wow hey and then like I'll watch them for another 30 seconds to a minute and I'm just kind of like and we're out so it's really. 01:38:04.42 Zombi That's pretty cool. 01:38:05.72 Marcus Yeah, it's interesting. It's it's ah in some ways frustrating. But also yeah in a lot of ways freeing because it's like well that's time I don't have to worry about losing on that person. So. 01:38:13.36 Zombi There you go. 01:38:14.89 Jala Yeah, yeah, and and I will say too that like when I've had that kind of um sense from somebody like I I I will say um, usually I have to see them like out in the world physically around me for me to be able to. Get that like I can't get that necessarily if it's somebody that I am meeting online because like I'm not getting the full picture of that person like there's body language and things like that that even through video doesn't come through the same way as it does in person and so like. 01:38:39.98 Marcus Get down. 01:38:47.45 Jala Really feel like I have to physically be in person with them. But if I am in person with them and I see them for just just the barest amount of time I can usually see whether or not I'm going to get along with that person I can also see like is there chemistry there for anything else. To develop after that and everything I can see all of that upfront because again like you say like just knowing myself well enough it becomes easier to see what is and is not compatible with that. 01:39:17.86 Zombi And that's so important to have. 01:39:18.81 Marcus Thanks! 01:39:20.95 Jala Yeah, when it comes to everything not just sex but like you know sex and romance and things like that but also just friendships and you know interactions like do you want to? avoid you know even talking to this person because like even just like the barest acquaintance passing by with this person could be like. 01:39:41.20 Marcus Ah, right? Yeah, exactly exactly? Yeah yeah, yes, indeed memories that come back 100 years anyway no 01:39:41.12 Jala Toxic to your day. You know? Yeah, you're having memories right? there I could hear it. But. 01:39:46.45 Zombi I don't have water. Yeah. 01:39:54.43 Jala So Zombi how about you. 01:40:01.97 Zombi I Love this I don't have anything that um, well no and I want to say it's not deep I don't have anything that expansive to add to that question I will say that. Being able to understand myself, especially with in regards to sexuality and attraction has made me realize I'm a very comfortable person to be open with to talk to you about um, important deep things especially with sexuality like people will know right away I will not shy away from topics about sex or topics. You know. Things that you might consider personal I feel like I have made myself into this very comfortable and safe person and for me that's just been really important I Want to be someone who's comfortable I Want to be someone who's safe and that's probably the biggest thing that is done for me. 01:40:45.94 Marcus I I'm going I agree with that too. Yeah, that's been something.. That's definitely been something. That's happened people will open up to me like if we start talking a person will help a person people have a tendency to open up to me relatively quickly like especially like coworkers weirdly. I've had some very interesting conversations with the co-workers that I did not expect to have a week In. So. 01:41:06.21 Jala Yeah, well I hard agree with all of that I even have that that kind of curse of I will be out somewhere on a bus with headphones on and somebody's got a turn and tell me their life story like I'm that person that has it written on their face. Somewhere that like you must tell me every last detail about you know, like this problem with you know this intervention that's happening to your cousin Joe or whatever like I I hear about it. Yeah, like whatever it is whatever it is I hear it and you know like that's that's just. 01:41:35.15 Marcus Exactly. 01:41:41.35 Jala I accept it and it's actually um, like everybody needs that person be it a stranger or a friend like a regular confidant and so um, it is fine. It is fine. Um, but yes I am often that person as well. 01:41:54.11 Zombi Yeah, as heavy as a burden as that may be. It's also a really cool superpower if you need information. 01:41:59.10 Jala Right? right? So so yeah, so let's go ahead and move on and talk about sexual expression. 01:41:59.57 Marcus I Oh yeah, definitely Yeah yeah. 01:42:10.76 Jala Boy this is a topic. Okay, so ah, how did you come to realize what best suits you in sexual relations with your partners. 01:42:20.81 Zombi And I learned how to say no ah that took a long time I learned how to say no I Absolutely do not like this. You will not do this to me because I had a partner early on in life that would only he he literally said it doesn't matter if you're uncomfortable I have to finish that kind of stuff. 01:42:36.23 Jala Oh no. 01:42:38.60 Marcus I Ah fuck. No. 01:42:38.79 Zombi And I Just let I let it happen because I thought this is what you're supposed to do because parts of society parts of being on the internet taught me well it doesn't really matter what I feel it just matters What my partner is going through and um I Finally got to a point where it's like well no I don't like whenever you position me like that or I don't like whatever you engage me like that. And learning how to say no was the biggest and most amazing thing and the best thing for my sex life because so I could be like we're not doing that are you? Okay, if we do this instead and it's just like that level of communication was a game Changer. Oh My god. 01:43:10.73 Jala Yeah, well I will say that I've never had a problem telling people. No I am again again, It's like that that forthright personality that I have. 01:43:10.91 Marcus So hard agree. Yes indeed. Yeah. 01:43:17.46 Zombi Good. Good. 01:43:17.89 Marcus You don't select the type who would. 01:43:25.31 Jala But I will say that. Also even though I am a forthright person I also want to I'm very very interested in making sure that whoever I am with around whatever is comfortable and that's not just in a sexual situation. That's like a consistent trait across everything I try to make people as comfortable as I can. Even if I look intimidating to certain individuals. Um I still try like I look or I sound or whatever like ah intimidating I think it's probably just like my confidence level I know what I want I'm going and doing the thing and that's kind of you know, daunting to people who. Maybe are of a drastically different kind of persuasion. But either way, um I definitely but how did I come to realize what best suits me? Well what is natural to 1 ne's self is what best suits them right? So like by me acting like comfortably. 01:44:22.52 Jala That's kind of like and then then experimenting of course and like finding new things that I didn't necessarily think I was into like ah that's the the way the you know just being being natural and going with what. Feels best to you is always going to lead you to wherever it is that you know you are most comfortable. 01:44:44.20 Marcus You oh know? Absolutely um, yeah, that's actually dovetails nicely into my answer to this question. Um, so being who I am I was raised on a lot of like not raised on but ah ended up. Kind of gravitating toward like men's magazines you know maxim m fhm stuff all of those fun. Yeah, thankfully not men's health. Although maybe I could have used some of that because it was a little healthier than some of this but like you know all the lad mags and the dude magazines that came out back in the day. One of the things that ended up happening is that you know. It got really drilled into me. Whatever you do don't finish first and that actually stifled my sexual expression for a really long time because it was just kind of like like when when I would you know have an interaction with a partner is just kind of like. I have to hold back I have to hold back my old my own pleasure because those are the rules and it's taken a really long time for me to deprogram that because it was programed and programmed in like super deeply um and part of that thankfully like I said. You know, being active in the kink community and stuff like that helped me kind of like break out of that a little bit um it still is a bit of a struggle I have mental blocks sometimes but I have very understanding partners now which is like super helpful. Um, and I've learned how to just ask for what I want you know. 01:46:15.50 Marcus Ask you know and being able to just you know put the words out there and not assume not automatically assume that it's gonna be a no you know? Um, and yeah, but. 01:46:25.35 Zombi I yeah this sorry this is um, this raise is a point for me that I want to break up actually and I am I am fortunately finding I am not as alone in this as I used to think I was but I do not like I love longforplay of course I love long forplay. But the actual especially whenever it's a penetrative act the actual act itself I don't like it to last hours and hours like okay here we go. That's which position here. We go not switch position just holding back holding back I'm like no I'm telling you right now I want you to finish what will bring me the most. Sexual satisfaction. What will bring me the most pleasure and joy even if I do not work as them is you finishing and I think a lot of you know, um, assigned male at birth folk think that they're supposed to as you said Marcus hold back on that and I I don't what. I don't want my partner a holt back I want you to let completely loose and beat yourself in the moment and. 01:47:18.81 Marcus Right? exactly. 01:47:20.50 Jala Yeah, and I I will absolutely jump in and say yes I I have had ah relationships with folks who are um, who have 1 or another kind of issue and like ah. Could not like had trouble getting to orgasm no matter what like either it was a sensitivity thing or it was you know like a sensitivity thing as too sensitive or not sensitive enough 1 way or the other like literally one or the other of those 2 things and like it was psychologically. Damaging to me actually when like um they couldn't finish they they had such a hard time a difficult time trying to finish and like the fact that they couldn't made me really depressed because I was like am I not good enough I can't get them to finish like I want them to. 01:48:14.61 Marcus Right? look. 01:48:16.00 Jala I Want them to feel this pleasure like and I I'm not able to to help them get there and I feel like it's like that. That's what I'm doing I'm supposed to be doing this thing right? You know So if they cannot and they consistently cannot. I understand like on a mental level that's because they have something else going on that is not a failure on my part. It is some physiological thing or a mental block or one or another thing. But like when it consistently happens it gets to the point where like it is it actually isn't super injurious to like that relationship even like because like you just feel like you're not good enough and you can't set provide for your partner. So. 01:48:59.15 Zombi Yeah, that sounds really damaging. Ah and that sucks for everyone around because of course they want you to feel that you know they don't want you to feel that way and you want them to feel the way that you're trying to get them to feel but that sounds tough of. 01:48:59.86 Marcus It is and now it's it's actually like pretty terrible. Yeah, because the whole thing is like yeah everybody wants their partner to feel good. You know and and then and the flip side like it's it's funny because it's 2 extremes you know on the. You know on terms of like gender binary sexual expectations. You know if you're assigned male at birth. The idea is that you know you have to take forever to please your partner because that's like your job and then if you're assigned female at birth. The whole idea is like there's the whole There's the combined pressure of being able to. You know make your man orgasm but then on the flip side of that. There's also the pressure of you know like you know every Cosmo ad you know how to have like multiple orgasms every time you know? and um, yeah, having that kind of. 01:50:04.62 Marcus Having that kind of pressure as a people interacting having those in the back of your head the whole time is just damaging to the whole thing and it wasn't until I had partners who were like no, it's fine just you know like just relax like. Like it's okay, like having somebody actually tell me in the middle of sex that it was okay to let go was the most liberating and emotional experience I had I cried a lot. It was big. It was a really huge deal because that was the first time. 01:50:43.20 Marcus Anybody had said that and you know and it wasn't for the purpose of making a kid because you know I have my kid but like that's you know that was the first time I was just like no, it's fine. The whole idea is that you're supposed to feel good. Please do you know? that's just like her. Okay, you know and it's there's a weight off. 01:50:57.79 Jala Yeah, and then 2 well well and then two you also have the fact that like okay so if for example, you are a sign mail at birth and you finish and your partner hasn't or whatever there are so many different ways or if there's any some some kind of an issue. 01:51:16.16 Marcus Right. 01:51:17.52 Jala Right involved in all of that because you know whatever like ah we talked about like you know erectile dysfunction and other things like that. So like if there's some kind of an issue you can still please your partner and be pleased by your partner. It's just going to be using different. Like ways like think outside the box a little bit. You know I mean even if you are really vanilla. You know? Yeah, Even if you are really really vanilla like you know there are different ways in which you can express you know, sexual stuff without you know, just going to um. 01:51:35.46 Marcus Right? Like no pun intended. 01:51:52.37 Jala The traditional method I So but this is like. 01:51:52.94 Marcus Um, yeah, right? Yeah, exactly. 01:51:56.76 Zombi I've been really fortunate and partners that like to make sure I get there even whenever they'd already gotten there and I'm like it doesn't I don't have to finish it every time the the portion of sex that I really enjoy is the closeness and making you happy. Um. But also I did I I have experienced almost verbatim exactly what Marcus described a moment ago where I was with a partner and I could see them kind of panicking saying I'm sorry I can't finish basically I'm like ah and I just spoke softly them I'm like it's okay, you're fine and you don't worry nothing like that and then they were able to finish and that was. You know I don't know that bait me feel baby. Proud's not the right word but just make me feel really like oh my gosh is this love. Yay. 01:52:38.99 Marcus Yeah, exactly. That's that's exactly it like being able to be like it's a different kind of vulnerability like people talk about sex itself as like an act of vulnerability for a lot of people. It really isn't um and that's. It's actually very sad to me like for so many people sex is completely performative or it's just selfish and it's not an act of vulnerability at all and when you have a partner or partners who actually allow you to be vulnerable who allow you to speak up with whom you can just ask for what you want. And the conversation isn't like emotionally devastating no matter which direction it goes in.. That's really huge and it's um, as I have grown and as I've had you know different partners and you know the partners I have now it's been really.. It's been incredibly liberating. And still difficult to be able to ask for what I want but I you know I know I have the freedom I just have to like take a deep breath and do it you know and sometimes it's easier than others and other times it's like it's in sometimes it's really really hard. But. 01:53:53.20 Marcus I Still you know I just have to practice doing it. So. 01:53:55.94 Jala Yeah, and there is definitely like a ah practice element to that vulnerability because even asking like you know, even if you feel comfortable The act of asking is. Ah, vulnerability and you have to reach inside yourself and then bear something you know, sensitive out there in the world for someone else and even if you feel safe that is still a draining act so you know that is definitely like an ongoing struggle for folks. Um. But then too like a lot of times you know like people people know this mentally. But I don't know if they actually internalize it when it comes to emotionally like when they have this situation but like say for example, those um partners that I mentioned that had like the sensitivity issues and stuff like a lot of that. It ties into like mental emotional wellness and like you know, unpacking a lot of other factors that are affecting that it's not the moment.. It's not the partner. It's not you know, necessarily all of that I mean it can be but also there's so many different things that affect. Your quote unquote Performance. You know. 01:55:07.66 Marcus It right? exactly people talk about like oh I'm stressed at work or this then the other thing it's going On. It's just like people treat that as a joke like in a lot of media people. You know if if a guy can't finish or or can't get erect or whatever. For some reason they'll say you know oh it's because of X Y and Z and it'll become a joke. And you know and a person be ridiculed for it because the expectation is that they're supposed to be able to just get it up and go at any given point. It's just like that's not how brains and bodies work. You know people have lives and we and you know we have way too many other things going on for us to just were I mean. There's a line I'm not a machine but it's really it's really true like we're not, We're not machines and even if we were. We'd just be really buggy Computers. So. 01:55:53.00 Jala Well and then too I Want to add so for a sign mail at Birth folks. It's the you the expectation that you can get it up whenever but then it's also the complaints about assigned female at birth people when they don't feel like they're in the mood or whatever and it's like yeah, it's the same shit. It's the same. 01:56:10.53 Marcus Exactly exactly the same thing you know, yeah and and really I Really wish that societally we were given more grace. You know I wish that it was I wish that that was. 01:56:12.69 Jala Yeah, it's the exact same ring. It's the same thing same thing you know. 01:56:28.14 Marcus Just part of the cultural lexicon that we are given more grace about the stressors that we have in life because we have so many you know and it's really it's difficult for a lot of us to get out of our heads and really be embodied in these moments and I think that yeah the more we allow for just grace and. 01:56:47.53 Marcus And just for what's the word I'm looking for just understanding in those moments I think that's just going to be better for everybody. You know. 01:56:54.65 Jala Yeah, absolutely so moving right? along with the questions So have your preferences of sexual expression changed over time and if so. How have they changed over time. 01:57:15.27 Zombi I I've definitely just become more confident because like I said I was exposed and desensitized pretty early to sexual things. But I've become more confident and knowing what I like being able to communicate what I like and not just what I like but um, if somebody's curious about something I'm confident that I couldn't. You know, either guide them in the right direction if I can't answer it personally or you know use my knowledge to assist them it over time like really the confidence is just skyrocketed. That's pretty much the only change. 01:57:43.67 Jala Um, so I can say for myself again when I was a teen there was this whole period of time where I was dressing like a dude and acting like a dude in the whole 9 and um I also have been a polled answer There's a lot of change that kind of goes on. Um, but. I still have the same essential two modes. It's just that like I bounce between the 2 modes and 1 mode may be more prevalent in a certain era of my life than another um again because I kind of. Hit the ground with just acting however was natural to me and just rolling with that as the way that we were going to do the thing um get consistency consistency I mean it's been pretty much consistent the whole time. Ah within the realm of my gender expression. You know and how that aligns with my sexual expression and. 01:58:41.58 Marcus Yeah, no, it's definitely changed with my gender expression. Um, however, like 1 of the things that's been interesting to me is like I said raised on you know men magazines. Um, you know there was. I tried I really tried to buy into the whole idea of being you know dominant manly man or whatever in bed or just with sex in general because you know not always in bed. Um, but um, it's been as I've come into my own with my gender. That's. Ah, it's really just allowed me to be like oh I don't have to do that you know and I'm allowed to just I'm allowed to be who I am and again allowed to ask for what I want um and it's funny because there have definitely been some interactions I have had. Where like you know, like in the middle of you know in the like not even forplay like in the middle of sex. It's just kind of like suddenly I'm feeling really femdami. So I'm goingnna I'm going to ask to switch things up a little bit. You know, um and it's really interesting to see how different aspects of my gender have come into play. Um, with regards to just how I carry myself and like when terms in terms of like the physical act of sexual interaction. Just how my body moves is completely different. Another thing that's been really fun with that is ah learning to belly dance from shaheraz oddd back in 1 67 I'm kidding. 02:00:11.82 Zombi Oh my gosh. Yes 02:00:12.20 Marcus Um, but I just here just continue the to continue the Immortality lore. But no when I learned to belly dance that was like a really hugely liberating thing because you know people who are assigned me at Birth You know dudes aren't supposed to move their hips right? No yeah, we are. You know we have them why the hell not. 02:00:28.60 Zombi And please move your hips. Oh God Please for the love of all that is good in the world move your hips. 02:00:30.51 Marcus And you know. Exactly exactly and being able to understand like the nuances of that and just feel into it and be able to enjoy it and like that was like incredibly liberating incredibly liberating and yeah, it altered my sexual expression greatly. Um, because it was one of those things that helped me dial into my femininity more and so it was like oh all, right? Yeah yeah, That's cool. Oh that feels really nice. Actually you know and then of course yeah when it comes to partners I've had when you know when we're you know doing Piv. It's just like oh wait your hips can do what. You know so that's already different. So yeah. 02:01:12.55 Jala And yeah I will say too that for me dancing also ah has been something that I've really enjoyed for like. Expressions in particular for me and and I've talked about this on various episodes before but like dance for me tends to feel more feminine and ah belly dance and poll dance both and it's not that you know I don't think that ah a sign male of Birth Individuals. Can. You know, do this like I Ah obviously I don't feel like that because I love so many um Trans nonbinary and male dancers. But anyway like I personally for myself find it to be a feminine act for me. So ah, as such. That ties into expressions of femininity that I felt I could lean into and then take off like ah when we were doing the performance and Identity episode. It was me and serif and they were talking about how for them, you know, um. They are in like hyper feminine mode for belly dance. But now they're doing burlesque and they're kind of like trying to find their non-binary voice in burlesque setting. So. 02:02:31.26 Jala You know, like that's that's an interesting thing for me because you know also Burlesque was part of something that I touched on briefly and it wasn't really my bag but um, you know it's interesting. Burlesque to me didn't feel as feminine now that I'm thinking about it as the belly dancer the pole did for some reason even though it is um, usually stylized as being very very feminine Stuff. So That's actually interesting and now I need to get serif back on to talk about burlesque and. And Gender. Um, but anyway, ah yeah. 02:03:02.30 Marcus Thats well I think you got to remember about thing you have to remember about burlesque too is that a fair bit of it is comedy so that has no gender at all. So yeah I think there's more. It's There's more freedom there in some ways just conventionally. Even. 02:03:06.77 Jala Yes, it is yes. 02:03:17.85 Jala Yeah, yeah, and that might actually be part of it I do not know. Ah, but I I I would be interested in pulling Serif back on and having them on to talk about that. Um, if I can ever get them to stop moving like I'm trying to get them on an episode is like pulling teeth. Ah anyway. So but um, yeah, like dancing. Definitely um, has been a way for me to express my gender and sexuality at the same time and not necessarily all the time like every time I Dance does not necessarily equate sexuality to me, but there are times where it does. 02:03:54.74 Jala And but like I could take that off and then go back to doing my hardcore shit over there. You know in in a gruffer more masculine kind of um mode and things like that and so like I had hats that I would put on you know and it's not necessarily masking. These are just different parts of me that are coming to the fore at different times. And that worked really well for me because I got to express everything. 02:04:18.16 Marcus So that's super cool. 02:04:21.21 Jala Did you have more you wanted to say about sexual expression changing over time Marcus. 02:04:26.20 Marcus Um, um, no I wouldn't say that not anything else to add to that now. Well yeah exactly I got I have I um multiple I multiple hundreds of years to yeah like. 02:04:31.45 Jala Ah, cool I know so many centuries. 02:04:34.27 Zombi And they have a lot of time to go over. You got to cut them some slack. Ah. 02:04:43.94 Marcus Were different things were different in victorian england you have to understand that and then when you know then when I ended up in the post-anttebellum south and you know post Antebellum does er ironic. Yeah. 02:04:45.72 Jala Right? right? so. 02:04:54.10 Jala Ah, oh my. So as respects sex and attraction. What is 1 thing you wish people would automatically know about you without having to explain it I'll go ahead and throw mine out there because I already know my answer so ah, something. I used to really wish people would know without having to explain it but they never fucking did was ah I wish that people knew that I am not a very submissive person at fucking all and like people because I am a small assigned female at birth individual. People for the longest time thought that I was going to be some cute little submissive thing and treated me like I was going to be some cute submissive thing when it come not even just necessarily about sex just like interactions in public and like especially older men. Would just treat me like a little baby doll or something and I just wanted to rend them limb from limb like super violent aggressive because like my my um kink test or whatever popped off with like my top things are like a rigor and and a predator so like. I'm absolutely not this thing that everybody thought I was I do not have that problem anymore because now I'm buff. But for the longest time I had that problem and so that would be a thing. 02:06:17.70 Marcus I mean I will say right away that when you and I first started talking you gave off really big sword energy like like clouds buster sword energy like friggin Samuel Jackson's light saber energy like ah you know. Like guts from berserk's gigantic. Ask Meatleaavver Sword energy like I never got the idea that you were submissive when we yeah when when you and I first started talking I was like that was the furthest thing from my mind. Yeah, not know. 02:06:42.42 Jala Well I am glad thank you. 02:06:43.54 Zombi Yeah, submissive I would not I would not ever have described you as submissive. No never, they're just crazy I mean you did say it was older men and like I like. 02:06:51.31 Marcus No, never never once I would have been really surprised. 02:06:52.69 Jala You all would be surprised what people used to think I don't even know where they got out with this stuff. So yeah, this is true. But so that was mine. Um, and I as for right now I don't. 02:07:02.67 Zombi Your men in all food. 02:07:10.29 Jala So I think the thing that I wish people would stop assuming about me is that I'm just like a cis head person you but like there's no getting around that because most of the most of the time I present primarily feminine and I have a. 02:07:17.90 Marcus I heard. 02:07:26.68 Jala Male husband male appearing husband so like shrug they're going to think what they're going to think I can't get them done unthink it. 02:07:36.00 Zombi Yeah, it's a hard one that I think everyone in this current podcast can relate to ah. 02:07:38.56 Jala So yeah, okay so knocking that one off the list. What's your next one then. 02:07:41.50 Marcus Um, yeah yeah absolutely yeah I would say the thing I wish people would automatic ah thing I wish people would automatically know without me having to explain it is that my size and strength it does not negate my. Ability to be gentle I think that's the first thing and this is it's a combination of me being over six feet tall and being muscular and being black. You know people just assume that like there's that there's that really gruff hypersexuality like b e t. Popular media kind of assumption around what I'm going to be like in any situation and I really wish that people would not assume that that was what was going to happen when it comes to sex and attraction. Anyway, um I really wish people would understand. And they usually get it after I start talking ah because I don't sound like I look necessarily like I think yeah I wish that people would understand right away that I am. With yeah women when it comes to my sexual expression when it comes to sexual interaction. Ah I have a wide gamut of characteristics and that the ones they think would be the primary ones are not you know I don't. 02:09:10.65 Marcus Ascribe to those things at all I'm actually normally a very very gentle person and I approach things very gently and very slowly and I don't dive into like when it comes to sexual interaction. It's not one of those.. It's not that kind of hyper sexual you know. Ah, what's the word I'm looking for I don't fall into that hype that hypersexual black male stereotype in the least and yeah, the more people who understood that and the more people understand that the better I am so. 02:09:45.68 Zombi Just from my experience with you. You do strike me as a very gentle and you know soft isn't the right word but gentle kind person. Um I know we've only really spoken at this capacity and then through through the messages but you do strike me as a very gentle person. 02:09:58.83 Marcus Fair. Thank you I'm a big old kid. It can't kind a can can yes that exact see you get me. That's that you you you understand exactly? yeah. 02:10:02.46 Zombi Oh vampire Kitty Cat centuries old wandering the world for cuddles. 02:10:02.74 Jala This is it. 02:10:13.89 Zombi Yeah, ah oh my gosh. It's so cute. But. 02:10:17.44 Marcus With Bat wings. So. 02:10:22.55 Jala And now you have to draw it. Okay, so we have to commission and Marcus. Okay, ah okay, yes, yes to Zombi. 02:10:24.55 Marcus Oh my god yes, that's happening that is happening tonight second. 02:10:33.85 Zombi Yeah, ah I intentionally wanted to go last because I had by Adser I'm sitting here like this is gonna be this is gonna be very crass but let's let's go Ahead. I Wish people would understand specifically partners that I will be engaging um with sexually that I am a very hoardy person I am ready to go if you tell me hey do you want to? I'm going to be like yes right now on this table on this floor wherever I am ready to go at all times people. People kind of think they have to be shy around me. No no, if you want to do it just know I will be there ready to do it. But. 02:11:07.40 Jala Yeah I think it's just I love it I Love it because I'm like over here like yeah with the thing muted. But but anyway yeah, like I think again, it's part of that whole like presentation thing people are seeing you and seeing. 02:11:25.95 Jala That you are like soft boy excuse me. But um, they are seeing that you are a soft boy and then they are just like oh well I have to be very careful with Softboy you know and. Thanks. 02:11:39.40 Zombi Yeah, like everyone's really gentle with me and it can be so nice to have like a gentle gentle kitty with bat wings like Marcus it can be so incredibly nice, but like please please be rough, please just go into it. Let's go. 02:11:52.90 Jala Right? right? and we will. We will talk more we will talk more about that too. But that that'll kind of go into like the last question in my opinion Marcus you were saying ok so. 02:11:53.69 Marcus Not exactly yeah. 02:12:01.31 Marcus Oh my? Yes oh no I was just agreeing. 02:12:10.97 Jala Okay, so the last one is what do you think your fantasies represent for you. So that's if you feel comfortable talking about what some of your fantasies recurring fantasies or whatever are What do you think those things represent to you and you can either talk super abstractly or if you want to be specific about things you can talk about that too I can actually mention a couple just to start us off just to make everyone comfortable. Um, say for example, 1 of my ongoing fantasies that just never goes away is that I really really want my partner to want me so much that like the super shy reserved person or the usually mild person because I always end up with shy and mild people around me. Um I think it's just like the energy balance thing I want that person to just basically lose their shit. Lose their mind and just like act like me for once like throw me into the wall instead of the other way around I want that to happen I want you to like be so into it and be so um, comfortable that you can do that and express that to me and just like lose yourself in. This um, being together with me and that's one of my biggest ongoing things that I just absolutely love the the thought of right. 02:13:29.41 Marcus You so you want to get caoneed by Clark Kent is what you're saying. Yeah, that's what it sounds like anyway or like or or maybe like Bruce banner you know? Yeah, okay. 02:13:40.96 Jala Um, there you go there, you go Clark Kent is better looking than panner. But ok I mean like you know the hulk kind of turns into a goblin looking guy but you know. 02:13:48.28 Marcus Yeah I mean gay and I yeah it's true. That's true. 02:13:57.13 Zombi I Dont know monsters and like guy kind of Eca does it for beat. But you know righto um I was gonna. 02:13:59.26 Jala Hey I mean to each their own one lives. So so I mean there's one for me like I It's not like that's the only one that I've got but that's one of them so way other folks. 02:14:10.16 Zombi Kind of to carry on with that. Um specifically on yours Still I think that maybe the people that know you well enough to get to the point where you know you're like yes we could absolutely be intimate know that you are not this sub missssive person and um in a way of respecting you Maybe they' 02:14:27.33 Zombi Thinking too hard and thinking. Well if I do this, they're going to think that I think you're submissive whereas that's not the case. Both people can be like 2 intense lions clawing at each other like there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. That's fun to watch that's fun to do. 02:14:41.26 Jala Well and then two like I have a tendency as it comes towards interactions with people in general I have a tendency in any conversation to kind of counterbalance whatever it is that I'm around like if somebody else is really hyper I tend to be you know playing the straight man if you will. And I'm like super serious as a response or if the person that I'm talking to is really really serious and they never lighten up then I will be goofy and this also kind of plays into like sexual roles as Well. Like if I'm in a sexual situation. We are being intimate and. I have been asserting. Um you know dominance or whatever in the situation. But then you start to express like the desire to want to switch with me I don't have. But problem switching roles or whatever now like which you know do I have predispositions towards certain types of actions and certain things that work best for me. Yes, but I'm also not like so ingrained in that that I just can't do anything else. You know like I'm Flexible. You know so like. If in that situation somebody were to be that caught up in it I think I would just be like you know at least from the instances that I can recall in my past where something like that has happened at least to some extent or another like ah I. 02:16:02.51 Jala Just kind of soaking it all in and appreciating and enjoying the fact that this person is in this state and like I'm just experiencing it in that moment and I'm not like actively fighting against them or anything like that in that moment I'm just like oh hell Yeah, finally it's fucking happening. You know, like that's that's what I got going. 02:16:18.80 Zombi I Well I like that too. 02:16:18.71 Marcus Yeah, yeah, that's dig it. 02:16:25.42 Jala It and it's not like I can't you know, ah get frisky back or whatever but like it right at first I'm just going to take it in and be like oh yes, oh yes, finally here we go. 02:16:34.18 Marcus Right? Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, um, I'm gonna go general and then maybe specific a little bit later I would say that a lot of the fantasies that I have represent. Um, I mean obviously they represent desires that I have not you know, actuated that have not happened in real life. But I think a lot of them. Um represent like actual kind of fantastical situations. And like so every fantasy that I have is highly highly sensual. It's highly tactile. There's a lot There's always a lot of like physical touch in 1 way or another that goes into every single fantasy that I have um and depending on the level of intensity depending on what it is they but. Ah, they all represent like a level of you know tactile sensation or intensity that I that either I am missing in real life or that it's just like. Wow! This is a lot and it'd be really cool but like where in the world am I going to find a person who's willing to do that you know, um to be specific one one fantasy that I have ah that I figure I could probably find somebody to do this with but the one person I originally thought of. 02:18:01.14 Marcus Isn't allowed back into the United States for another three or four years yeah um I'll be all right? Yeah, um, but so ah, 1 the 1 in particular that I have is um is the idea of. 02:18:04.10 Jala You well shit? Well you're ah acne or you're effectively immortal I mean it's fine. But. 02:18:20.20 Marcus Ah, martial arts switchfight like you know and whoever you know whoever loses you know, gets to like claim the other person for like an hour or so and like that's really cool because I love martial arts. But also there's the idea of I would not intentionally lose. So anybody who actually is powerful enough to defeat me would be like okay, yeah, no, you've earned it like for real. Yeah yeah, yes. 02:18:46.14 Jala I love this because this just makes me think of Rama when half with ship poo being beaten and then ronma like oh well. Ah ronma beat me and so I have to marry him now. 02:18:56.36 Zombi Yeah, yes, that is amazing I Love that. 02:18:57.28 Marcus Um, yes, yes, exactly yeah that is p. 02:19:00.96 Jala And I've done something kind like it's not. It's not a physical thing that we are competing at I'm actually not I generally don't tend to be a competitive person but I have done strip video games and that's very fun to do. Ah. 02:19:16.26 Jala Yeah, that's a very fun thing to do and I know a lot of gamers listen to this. So like there's an idea for you free 1 on on the house have that one. So. 02:19:20.69 Marcus A go? Yeah yeah, the 1 thing that I have done that is similar is kind of along these lines but not exactly the same as I have done like rough body play like kind of switch fighting which is a. Gets sexual really fast with this one particular person. Um, but it's the kind of thing where like you know we're wrestling and the whole idea is to pin the other person down and make them like the idea is to make them tap out but without using like mma stuff because nobody's trying to break anybody. But um, it basically the whole idea is to try to make the other person give up and stop fighting. Um, and with this one particular person. They're actually fairly close in height to me and fairly close like size wise we match up pretty well so it's actually like they really put me through my paces when this happens and it's like and it's. Actually really gratifying when like we decide we're done fighting and we want to go have sex because it's kind of like woof. Okay, well yeah. 02:20:21.54 Jala So you know the thing that makes me kind of like I've been I've been I've been muted and I've been kind of giggling and and not giggling about the the whole thing. Ah what I'm giggling about there's a couple of things 1 this sounds kind of like the training and sex thing again. But then also it sounds like so. 02:20:39.17 Jala Many goddamn hentai like it's just like the Marcus does is is just an acting various Hentai from like fighting games. You know? yeah. 02:20:50.42 Marcus Oh no, Absolutely no, that's that Absolutely what it is and if I could actually get somebody who could you know, match me like in a standup like Striker's battle. Then yeah, that's exactly what it would be.. In fact, there's a comic I'm thinking of off the top of my head where this exactly happens. Um, but yeah. No, that's that is your you're exactly correct. Yeah, So yeah. 02:21:08.88 Jala Do that's fucking phenomenal I Love it. Zombi You got one. 02:21:17.85 Zombi Yeah, yeah, I I've got 2 and 1 well not one go I've got 2 because the first one's a bit darker. Um, so one of my probably top if not top one of the top fanheses is cnc or consensual nonconsent where I am being in a. Position where I am you know the 1 being used I guess I'd say ah for here and for that. But it's dark because I have been sexually assaulted quite a bit my life um, are worded it early in my life as well. I've I've had a lot of sexual assault happen to me. And some people enjoy cnc without having had so had that happen and that's perfectly valid and wonderful. But for me, it's a way that I can reclaim like I have control over the situation even though on appearance alone. It seems like I wouldn't have control. I can say at any time stop or I can change the scene I can change anything I can say no and having that power to say no and grasping that power back after having been through such a assault. Um, it's something that makes me feel like I have a lot of power. It's something that really excites me. It's something that brings me a lot of joy. Unfortunately, a lot of people are uncomfortable with doing this for obvious reasons like um, everyone that I've been with is very big on consent and even though the first word in that is consensual. It can be uncomfortable and I would never force someone to the position where it's like yes we have to do this because it's my fancy. No of course, not um. 02:22:38.50 Zombi So it's just kind of Mar remained a fantasy because I've had people just not want to do it and that's fine. 02:22:43.33 Jala Yeah, well and if I can interject I will also throw it in there and say you know I've had that same fantasy and I was actually going to say because when Marcus was talking about how their fantasies. Um, you know represent x to to them you know and all of that. Like for me a lot of my fantasies revolve around control or lack of control like the removal of control but mostly because in a lot of situations like I've had a wild kind of a ride on my life. And like and there are so many situations in which I lack control and so like I tend to have control in my life these days I tend to have control in you know, like absolute control when it comes to like you know the sexual situation or whatever I also tend to be dominant but like um, you know. Playing with that sense of control and abandoning like giving giving that sense of control to someone else who you trust you know is is an important kind of um, way of like ah opening up that vulnerability part right? So like. And I also have had ah so situations where I have been assaulted. It's been lower key I have mentioned before I have had ah stockerss multiple times and so there's definitely like a lot of um, periphery-like danger zone kind of stuff but not like um. 02:24:09.63 Jala Flat out full On. Um you know like rape or anything like that. So you know like I've had situations like that where I've had that kind of um, harassment I've had so much harassment. So like. I can understand that being like a kind of reclaiming because in in a lot of ways I feel the same way about um whenever it comes to Cnc thoughts for myself. Yeah. 02:24:34.31 Zombi Right? that that control is so important I think that a lot of people especially people that might start off in positions of power can really overlook that for somebody and how important is to feel like you're like it's a trust thing Like. Do you feel safe. Do you feel like you can say no and that will be respected. 02:24:51.16 Jala Yeah, yeah, and it's kind of like I also like bondage stuff but like I like it as a way of just kind of like more or less getting somebody's hands out of the way like it no get wo the movement The fuck. Over there I'm busy or whatever you know or or vice versa like letting them do whatever they're going to do and like rolling with it and like you know, um, some you know sensory deprivation like a blindfold or whatever things like that like those those are fun tools to like axe. 02:25:07.10 Marcus And like and oh that's one. 02:25:23.56 Jala Sent the feeling and to like kind of have whoever is restrained just relax into feeling what they're feeling and actually being in that moment rather than trying very busily to do something you know like just let them soak up. 02:25:41.34 Jala The feeling that they're having right now in the moment that they're in and the trust and the love and the whatever that's going on. You know. So so yeah, so like that. 02:25:48.75 Zombi Yeah, right on just like that. Um. 02:25:49.70 Marcus Um, absolutely that actually um. 02:25:52.32 Jala That's a lot of where a mind come from but a lot of it centers around control and having thought about it. It's because there's been so many situations where control has been taken away from me throughout my life that I am um like for a long time I had a big sense of panic about the loss of control and then that's kind of where it came into this whole interest of well actually. Consenting to give that control to someone else from time to time not like it's not something I want to do all the time but sometimes allowing for that is something that you know makes me feel more comfortable with them because like I'm trusting I'm being vulnerable with them and they are proving that to be. Um, earned. 02:26:35.10 Zombi Oh yeah, um, like as into kink as I am I prefer I'd say the the more than half the time vanilla sex just because it feels more intimate and closer and I'm not trying to satisfy like an extra part of it if everything I'm just enjoying sex for sex sake. 02:26:52.27 Marcus I yeah, no, that's true to piggyback up off of some of what Jolla was saying about relaxing and feeling into the moment. Um, one of something that I actually will be able to do at some point. It's just a matter of a couple of logistical challenges. But um so i. I enjoy edibles quite a bit. Um and one of the things that I really like about them is they kind of get me like t hc in particular kind of gets me out of my head because it like every single other nerve is firing and like my brain just kind of shuts off and it feels amazing. Um, and it's one of those things that really really gets me and really gets me into my body. Um, and one of the things that I've also really enjoyed doing is orgasming in the rain which is something I've been able to do because of kink events at Campgrounds. So 1 of the thing one fantasy that I wanted to do that. Really. Plays heavily into the sensuality and tactile nature of everything. Ah, there is at this one particular venue. There is this really large empty field with this one tree in the middle of it and something I've always wanted to do was to you know, have an like have an edible or 2 get good and stoned with a partner. And go out there and have sex under this trait. Um, while it's raining so it has to be like in the middle of the summer and everything like that. But the sheer amount of like tactile sensation between you know the grass and the rain and you know and my partner and everything else and all of that being heightened by the thc is just like yes. 02:28:25.14 Zombi And that sounds incredibly romantic. 02:28:25.85 Marcus That that would be like the ultimate kind of thing. Yeah, so that's something I would like to do eventually and I don't know when I'll get the chance but you know Immortality has its perks All maybe. 02:28:36.71 Zombi Yeah, all I Hope you get there because that sounds amazing. 02:28:38.63 Jala Ah, well yeah, and see I will mention too. Um I do not partake of edibles or anything like that I Also don't like I I have. Have only been drunk like a handful of times and it's always been on accident and the reason again is that whole control bit the concept of not having control like my control completely pulled away from my body. Especially with the kind of history of like scary situations and things and you know all of this other mess that I talked about previously um is completely like Anathema to me feeling. Okay like I would not want to do that Because. Of these things like I I understand the place that they have for other people but like you know again, it's that that whole control element and like that that sense of control and how I feel about it like who has control how much control did they have and all of that. Um. And my autonomy of myself like when when I had my spinal stenosis that ah sudden onset spinal stenosis and I couldn't look down I couldn't turn my head and I couldn't feel my arm or move it that was terrifying to me because again, that's more control like I suddenly lost control of part of my body. 02:29:57.67 Jala And it was you know temporary disability I got better. It will come Back. It will get worse. Um, you know as I age like all of that is control stuff that I'm just highly conscious of and especially because like my grandmother had Alzheimer's and I saw her lose mental Faculty mental control. And so all of these things you know like having ah people in my family who have chemical imbalances that make them emotionally uncontrolled like there's so many elements that in my life that have just been you know whirlwinds that I'm I'm always like I'm always controlled right? So I Think. In a lot of ways a lot of these um, sexual desires that I've got focus on you know me losing control somebody else losing control like you know stuff about control because of all of these different experiences that I've had. 02:30:51.78 Zombi So that absolutely makes sense based on the the fantasy that you mentioned at first. So it all checks out. 02:30:56.53 Marcus Yeah, that is yeah, have either of you ever heard of the pleasure hierarchy. Okay, so this is a thing. Um, basically it's it's a 3 step thing. Basically it's that safety has to come before comfort and comfort has to come before pleasure. 02:31:02.92 Jala No no. 02:31:03.59 Zombi I Have not. 02:31:16.39 Marcus Right? That's the hierarchy safety first then cupper then pleasure happens and 1 makes room for the other and the the degree to which you feel one will be will affect the degree to which you feel the next one and the next one right? So a lot of what I'm hearing from you Jala and from Zombi with the cnc is that the whole idea is that you want to have. The safety to you want you? You need you want to have want to have the kind of person you know a partner with whom you feel that level of safe that level of safety and comfort so that you can usher in that kind of pleasure and the whole thing is feeling safe enough to let go of control. Feeling safe enough to be comfortable enough to let go of control is like that is gigantic and that can be a huge undertaking for some folks and you know in your situations I totally understand why? why that's you know why you feel about those why you feel the way you do about those things. 02:32:06.46 Jala Well and the thing is too is that since in my current situation I'm caretaker for my elderly parents and they are always in the house and whatever like there's also this sense of like I'm trained not To. Express myself in sex and everything because I have to be Quiet. You know if I'm going to do anything I have to be really fucking quiet and I have to be very controlled in my responses to things so there's also this whole long history of like. Having to deal with that kind of a situation in like long-term years and years of being conditioned to um, have like you know a muted reaction to things so you know like there are so many different ways in which like it. It plays a big part in. How things pan out for Me. So. 02:32:58.89 Marcus Yeah, that's really understood. 02:33:01.12 Zombi And absolutely like I can't adequately you know finish if I have to control a portion of me like if I have to stay quiet or if I have to um, stay in a certain position. That's not giving me a maximum I don't know range of motion or comfort then I. 02:33:16.61 Zombi Like I could finish if I can't really get there right? Um, but it's exactly yes, ah I'm so sorry I want to make a joke. Um, it's It's slightly at your expense but like in the lighthearted way I hope. 02:33:16.70 Marcus Yeah, it's not gonna feel as good when you do So yeah I. 02:33:23.46 Jala Yep, the eternal struggle. So. 02:33:32.96 Jala That's fine. 02:33:35.40 Zombi I was going to say because we've we've kind of spoken about how you can't really get it on as much as you would like to maybe that's why your immunity kind of took a turn whenever we were talking about the sexual health like but. 02:33:43.94 Jala Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah like it's I'm suffering I'm I'm flat as fuck like who flat out you know because I am I am on the struggle bus I am trying to find a way in a time and a place and have all the stars God Damn a line. 02:33:46.22 Marcus Um, yeah, you know, actually that's that's real as fuck. Yeah. 02:34:00.64 Marcus No, that's like that's really real though I mean stress plays into a lot of yeah. 02:34:03.15 Jala It is it is I mean you say it's a joke. It is a joke. Also you know because it's funny but also it's true. So yeah. 02:34:11.37 Zombi Right? I'm like I Hopet what this sounds like you know root or anything but it's funny. It's also you know, ah cut because it's true I didn't want to you know, hit a nerver or anything. Um, but if y'all were interested that I was gonna talk about by another fantasy I Want you to bring up that wasn't historic. Um. 02:34:16.65 Jala Yes. 02:34:24.89 Marcus Um, yes, please. 02:34:28.85 Zombi For the vocabulary that we have for it I am very much into monster fucking. Um I think the thing that drives behind that is I Love the idea of me being able to provide love and um, nurturing to something you know someone that normally would not receive this someone. That's normally shunned or normally. Um, not understood and I think that's where that comes from because I always want everyone to feel loved and cared about. 02:34:53.41 Marcus Oh that is interesting like that mean, yeah, see for me. It's just a tactile thing with tentacles. So you know it's just wait. There are more limbs and more like there are more limbs and more mouths awesome. There are mouths on the walls. What? oh yeah, really good. 02:34:54.83 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely ah that tracks. 02:35:05.49 Jala Ah, well, there's definitely well. There's right right? You mean this one entity can do this this this and this all at the same time hey. 02:35:12.54 Marcus You know so. 02:35:18.85 Marcus Um, right exactly it good. Yes, exactly all that's time for day and it's still funny. It's hilarious. Yes, but yeah, no, um, yeah, like the idea of. 02:35:19.80 Zombi What's that one song I Fuck Cthulhu good. 02:35:22.38 Jala But I don't know what you're talking about. But you're gonna have to link me because I need to know now. So. 02:35:26.63 Zombi I will find it because it's it's it's It's fantastic. 02:35:36.38 Marcus Also okay, um, to go back to 1 other thing though. Um one of the other It's not a fantasy so much but it's just something that has played out sometimes is that on and on a technical level I am attracted to like primal play in a lot of ways. Um and like you know. 1 of the things that I like about it is is again like much like Jalla said the kind of like loss of control that really consensual and it's ah it's a consensual loss of control on the part and from when when it's happened for me. It's been between me and my partner at the time where it's just kind of like. We're both so horny that we're absolutely feral and it's and both are freaking out and we're clawng and biting and scratching and growling and just like but yeah know. 02:36:16.80 Jala Yes, yes I Love it. 02:36:26.67 Zombi And I love being growled out. Oh my God that way that awakened something in my brain like ah with my kink test results I had a high prey result and like if someone pins me down and just starts growling at me like oh my God yes. 02:36:35.90 Marcus Um, um, right? Yeah I know exactly. 02:36:38.97 Jala And well one one thing that's ah, very funny is ah it's not. It's it's not so often that I want to get bitten sometimes maybe but more I like start salivating and my teeth ache because I want to bite So that's me. 02:36:55.26 Zombi I I feel that too I salivate quite a bit and it's not so much the urge to bite. But it's the urge to Wow Okay, that sounds perverted. It's the urge to have something in my mouth I don't like to bite down I don't like the chew I like having something in my mouth. But. 02:37:07.65 Jala I Understand that too I'm not always biting. So yes I understand that also but. 02:37:11.40 Marcus That no they got you? Yeah no exactly yeah on the biting front something I actually found out recently. Ah, you ever? Okay, so if you've seen any vampire lore you know there's the whole you know you know. Part of the sexuality and this and the whole ah appeal of of vampires is the fact that you know they you know they are taking a part of you and giving you a part of themelf and then fundamentally altering your whole being. Um, you know I mean for me, it was you know in in 1785 but anyway, um. 02:37:45.11 Marcus But one of the things that I found is a really interesting kind of interesting, interesting kind of vampiric impulse that is both ah dominant and submissive is the idea of somebody sucking on the inside of your wrist right? right. Ah, where those 2 major tendons are where they're also a bunch of noted mud enough. Yes, exactly and it's this kind of like it's this kind of like yes drink of me but then like like what ends up happening or at least what ended up happening in the situation is that I was like cradling this person while they were doing it. 02:38:06.20 Jala Um, and it's super sensitive right? there too. 02:38:22.44 Marcus And it was just ah, it was really nice so it was being nice. Yeah. 02:38:25.19 Zombi I hey hey Marcus don't think that we can't see what you're doing here. You're flaunting your sexy amppi fireness and you're just just trying to expand your reach don't see. We don't think we out see that. 02:38:25.74 Jala I Love that it was really nice. 02:38:35.20 Marcus Hate I mean I I mean know I whom I didn't I I can either confirm. 02:38:43.13 Jala Well they already enthralled both of us Anyway, I mean we both are ready admitted this. 02:38:47.29 Zombi True true. 02:38:51.80 Marcus Um I can neither confirm nor deny. But anyway, yeah, anyway, lots of tactile things. Yes. 02:38:56.90 Jala Ah, yeah, so that's no yes for sure. So this episode is starting to get long in the tooth. Ah um I just made bad joke. You can thank my Discord. 02:39:07.50 Zombi Oh my god. 02:39:08.24 Marcus Um, ah. 02:39:13.44 Jala Because all the folks in my Discord make terrible jokes to make me groan and just to see me face palm and just like sometimes they actually give me physical headaches like I get a headache my temple starts throbbing because they're so bad. So thanks Discord! 02:39:27.72 Zombi Out you know, being one of the people that likes to make those jokes to make you groan I I am ah I will accept this. 02:39:32.69 Jala You know? Yeah yeah, So so anyway, like that was the last of my questions. Do. We have any like wrap up thoughts about. This top I mean there's always,, There's not really a wrap up to this this just kind of goes on Forever. We've already talked about it. This is how we for it. We are forever young by having sex so like whatever. 02:39:55.72 Zombi Ah, wrap up thought if you like sex sex is good. Go do sex yay sex. 02:39:58.40 Marcus Um, yes, indeed indeed I'm on board with all that Also just I think my main wrap-up thought is really actually just moreansive you know, explore all the things. 02:39:59.73 Jala Yay for sex. 02:40:13.22 Marcus Consensually and you know don't hurt anybody and just like figure your stuff out like you're allowed to.. You're allowed to explore. You're allowed to be wrong. It's okay to get messy about it. It's all learning experience and you know eventually you find the things that you really like and you find people who you really like doing it with and you'll have a good Time. So. 02:40:31.60 Jala Also you don't have to be afraid of the kink people. They're okay like they're actually very cool Anyway, Um, yeah, so ah, my wrap up thoughts I would just say that sexuality and expression of sexuality takes so many different forms. It's not necessarily sex. 02:40:36.39 Marcus Um, rightly. 02:40:48.30 Jala Um, you know, just consider that and think about that wrap your head around that and kind of like reflect back on the different stuff. Check out all the different stuff the kink test the various other things there's going to be 7000 links in the show notes take a look at all of those read some things. Reflect on yourself and I feel like you will be better for it. You will enrich your experiences in the world at large that way. So those are my wrap up thoughts so where on the internet can people find you Zombi. 02:41:21.18 Zombi You could finally fileel. You can find me mostly on Twitch. Um I also have Twitter and Instagram and also a fansly. So if you like to look at lewd pictures I am there ya sex. 02:41:31.73 Jala Yay sex Marcus where can people find you on the internet. 02:41:37.27 Marcus And ah, people can find me @marcus_rasaan that's Marcus underscore isaan on pretty much every social media platform. Am also @randomrain7 on Twitter that's my art Twitter of where yeah if you like sexy things sexy lude things. There's plenty of that there and also I'm also random rain on Patreon if you want to support the arts, especially sexy art because I'm building I'm building a sexy web comic there. It's taking its time because. Even though I wanted to have you know, just a really fun sexy comic. My brain got wrapped up in worldbuilding and things have to have a reason for existing so that story is being written but there you can see all the really sexy character designs on there. So. 02:42:20.55 Jala Slut slutty smutty stuff but with like depth I'm in absolutely I'm there I'm yes, absolutely. 02:42:27.87 Zombi I and also a kitten with bat wings and. 02:42:28.13 Marcus I Awesome Excellent yes and the of bat ring. Oh you know what? hey you know I don't have a mascot for my patreon yet I have like I think they get that links might have to be it So there you go? Yeah there we go? yeah. 02:42:37.00 Zombi And oh everything works out in the end. 02:42:41.51 Jala Right? right? So ah, listeners already know you can find me anywhere I may be found @jalachan including jalachan dot place where you got this episode so that is all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/Jala. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]