Jala-chan Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.80 Jala-chan Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place! I'm your host Jala Prendes and today I am joined by Marcus (they/them) and Briar (they/them). How are you folks doing today? 00:13.37 Marcus Yeah, doing all right? You know had a slow morning but you know things are moving along so public transportation sucks. But you know we're here. 00:20.61 Jala-chan Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely does and it's hard when you have to rely on it to get you anywhere on time. So for sure and Briar How about you. 00:32.75 Briar This is the first day I've slept past 7 in like two months so I am full of all of the energy right now. 00:39.19 Jala-chan Oof Oh that's good. So you're basically vibrating in the chair you will make up for me continuing to be sick. So um, obviously ah folks can hear in my voice I am nasally I have had. 00:56.80 Jala-chan Ah, mixture of covid ear infection allergies, sinus infection and Tracheo bronchitis I we had to reschedule this episode a couple of times because I got deathly ill and I'm on the other side of that at this point and still recovering. But um, yeah I'm here and I am happy that I am not coughing my head off at this point so that's a win. 01:22.73 Briar Got to catch them all is still the worst marketing that's ever hit our society. 01:26.28 Marcus Um, hell. 01:28.10 Jala-chan Oh lord yeah and like um, yeah, and the thing about it too is that it is my understanding that people who are hit the worse with covid who are just like average folks that aren't immunocompromised. Anybody with bad allergies tends to get it worse and I was already fighting allergies because here in Houston we have ragweed really bad at this time of year. Um I'm severely allergic to ragweed so I was already fighting it beforehand so once covid hit my system and knocked it out. 02:02.18 Jala-chan Then you know everything just piled on and I have just been on all different types of medications and feeling like my head is in a fish bowl. Ah you know it's just been a wild ride but thankfully I fully Vaccinated. Um. So you know like it's It's a lot better than it would have been if I hadn't had all of that. Um, yeah and I caught it because my mom is in a nursing home right now recovering from a fall and they had a Covid outbreak there and although I wear wear my mask all the time. 02:23.35 Marcus Yeah, definitely. 02:39.42 Jala-chan Um, my father has breathing issues and so um, he when he's in the room with my mom would take his mask off and so he caught it and I think actually that he gave it to like everybody else at that point. But so it goes. 02:58.30 Jala-chan With infectious diseases anyway, that was a very long tangent I did not mean to go off on but here we are today's topic is intersectionality and this is something that was brought up in the. 03:14.91 Jala-chan Diversity equity inclusion and belonging episode but it was something that bore you know more interest. There's a lot more to talk about with the subject and that is where we are today and why we are talking about it now. So. Just to start off I want to refresh listeners a little bit about the academic side of this topic intersectionality is defined as an analytical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities combine to create. Different modes of discrimination and privilege. So it covers advantages and disadvantages different intersections. You know, different categories that are included in this topic are gender caste sex. Race ethnicity class sexuality religion disability weight physical appearance height. All different kinds of stuff can be a factor and of course it can be both empowering as well as oppressing just because of the way that society deals with these intersections. So the original concept of intersectionality was introduced to the field of legal studies by black feminist scholar Kimberly Krimshaw who used this term in a pair of essays in 1989 in 1991 it originally began as an exploration of the oppression of black women within society and then today it kind of has expanded to include all different forms of. Intersections of identity. So it was something that like once it was kind of like ah the tip of the iceberg I guess like when Kremberly Kimberly Crenshaw None started talking about this, you know, um with her own identity. It kind of open the way for everyone else to you know say hey actually I've had a similar experience except I'm latino but I'm gay or something you know and it just kind of went from there so different things. What what can people do about. Intersectionality to be more aware of it and to ah you know, kind of be more educated about their approach to the subject. So of course learning more That's always step number None learning more and then also. Examining yourself. There was something I found on the internet called the wheel of power and privilege and I will be linking this in the show notes but it is a wheel that has a bunch of different identities listed on it by different categories like citizenship. Language wealth housing and so on and you basically identify yourself on this wheel as to how marginalized or empowered you are by each different category and of course I will also link a bunch of different articles in. Show notes as well. So um I think the best thing for us to do to talk about this subject is to begin with saying who is everybody um, what is everybody's identities and you know, kind of go from there. So. Marcus I will go ahead and toss to you first who are you. 07:00.30 Marcus Who am I ain't that the question. Um, well ah recently when I was asked this question I answered with a question mark. But um. 07:11.61 Marcus The easiest breakdown is that I am a black assigned male at Birth non-binary human in my late 40 s believe it or not ah I am a divorced parent I currently work as a personal trainer but I am getting my certification in intimacy coordination which. Has just kind of exploded my mind a little bit when it comes to talking about things like intersectionality but also just talking about how identity and whatnot um has impact On. On Inimma on intimacy in production on what they're referred to as intimacy and hyperexposure in production and so that's been really Enlightening. Um, other than that I am a reemerging illustrator I have. 08:02.55 Jala-chan Yes I know yeah, definitely um when you and I None met it was because we were both signed up for a cosplay bodybuilding competition. 08:03.22 Marcus Lived many lives is the best way to put it I've done a lot of stuff in in the amount of time that I've been alive and I will probably do even more. So. 08:19.25 Jala-chan Play bodybuilding competition that neither one of us went to because of Covid but um and when we started talking to each other. It was like oh you've done that too. Oh you've done that too. Oh you know there was like wow, how did I happen to find another human that does all of this stuff because like usually when I talk to people about the various things that I've done in my life I Kind of like forget some of them because I've you know I've done so many different things and so then when I'm talking to somebody it sounds like I'm you know, bragging about it or humble bragging I guess. 08:44.68 Marcus So the other way. 08:52.68 Jala-chan Ah, because like I'm just so nonchalant about these things I've done and it's like no I just I my personality. My disposition who I am as as a human being is somebody who just actively explores. So um, that's that's not me, you know, saying None way or the other this is a. You know, ah something I'm showing off or anything. It's just this is this is how I experience the world. You know so. 09:15.55 Marcus Um, right? exactly exactly like I've like when I have to just fun story when I was filling out like. None of the things they've been asking us in class is like okay what is your history How do you you know what relevant experience. Do you bring to the table and I was like and I have to list like everything and exactly and they go through all that and like you've done. 09:36.95 Jala-chan Ah, yeah, you're like okay well I've been a dancer and a model and a this and a that and oh my gosh. Um, ah ah. 09:47.23 Marcus How many things I'm like yeah they're like how old are you I'm like I was like older than I look they're like Ho Lee prep. Okay, so yeah, it's It's been an interesting thing but thankful but because of all those experiences I have a lot of have a lot of knowledge and a lot of. 10:06.45 Marcus Ah, well a lot of experience to expound upon when it comes to different subjects and it's been really good for me as a parent but also as an advocate in different situations also because I can speak to a lot of different experiences and I can relate to a lot of people on a lot of levels. So. 10:18.85 Jala-chan Yeah, ah absolutely and and that is definitely one of your strengths and that's why when I was thinking about talking about this topic I was like I absolutely have to ask you to come so um, Briar. 10:36.55 Jala-chan Briar tell us about yourself. 10:37.70 Briar I actually really liked Marcus's answer of just ah, saying a couple a while ago I would have said question Mark that actually resonates with me pretty well because like. 10:52.10 Briar Growing up I had a very strong sense of my identity I just didn't have you know the language the verbiage the nouns ah to describe it So Keep in mind when I when I do apply things I'm just kind of. Jumping to closest or most similar labels. Ah, but yeah, so I'm my name is brier I use they them pronouns. Um, and I am about 30 ah about I am i. 11:27.50 Briar Assigned Male at Birth is probably probably the best language to describe that. Ah, but I am a nonbinary and Trans person. Um I know there are some nonbinary people who don't identify with the Trans Umbrella So That's just ah why I specify that there. Um. And like I said a lot of my identity I've always felt but never had like solid language to define it I come from a very sheltered area. Ah so like anything social is pretty much word of mouth. If listening to me sounds like the worst game of telephone you've ever heard. It's because my experience is based off of other people's experiences and just you know you know spirals like that so you might hear me ah use similar language to other people or just completely bugnuts things that sounds natural to me, but not to the average person. 12:28.27 Jala-chan Yeah, yeah, and I I when I was growing up I was the younger of 2 children and my older sister was the one who had to run headfirst into every wall and she had to do everything you know. 12:28.60 Marcus Makes sense. Yeah can relate. 12:47.48 Jala-chan Ah, firsthand the hard way and I was absolutely the person who was watching her and watching my parents and then making decisions about what I should or should not do based on what I was seeing them experience and so like I had this weird. 13:03.91 Jala-chan Way of avoiding a lot of problems by observing someone else doing something and then what those repercussions were when they did it and then like just saying I'm not doing that because I see what happens when that happens and that's not going to be me I will do something else and you know like it's not like I'm. You know, avoided every single pitfall in the universe but like my pitfalls were different pitfalls from the ones I was watching you know like I found other ways to mess up. Ah that were not the ones that I was watching firsthand in front of me. So um, as for me I am assigned female at birth I consider myself to be gender fluid. Um, but in the way that like I was talking to Dave earlier today and I was describing it as rather than gender fluid as kind of a level that is perfectly level. My gender fluidity is like a level that is usually skewed on None side but it kind of flows wherever it wants to and it'll go from side to side and slosh but it never finds exactly even so I've talked about it before on the performance and identity episode and of course every other. Episode I talk about myself. It happens you know Um, so listeners are probably very aware of who I am as a human um, if not, you can listen to episode number one where I list a bunch of different things that I've done in my life. You know that's a short 10 minute episode or so um. But I won't burn cast here reiterating all of that. So um, so in the interest of discussing intersectionality. Overall I want to ask both of you what ours. 14:48.23 Briar Ah, Jala before before we jump off I forgot to mention like where I'm at professionally to if that's permit at all. So ah I'm very much I work tangentially to the tech industry and um, you'll see. 14:54.12 Jala-chan Um, oh oh yes I'm sorry. 15:06.24 Briar Like especially with the tech and industry. There's a lot that goes on with intersectionality or lack of intersectionality and awareness. Um that I've seen Firsthand I used to be an environmental technician making sure all the nasty that tech companies put. Ah. 15:24.49 Briar Did not get out into the world. Um I ah got harassed out of that position and ended up now I work with lasers. So um, same company but ah yeah, if we get into I can get into some of the gory details on that. Um, and also I am a illustrator and a writer. So I have experience in those communities. Ah mostly on the queer side of things and I just realized I I Um is everyone okay with queer too because that's just the easiest word I I've used in my own personal experience. 16:02.31 Marcus Absolutely, definitely. 16:11.19 Briar Sorry I like I said like ah I came from the academic side of things None and so now it was just like picking and choosing and it's like the broadest term you know and growing up you get called that all the time if you don't perform masculinity properly. So. 16:30.62 Briar I was like you know what they were right? screw them. 16:32.80 Marcus Now The great thing about the word queer is that it's a verb also and I think one of my that's one of my favorite things about it like it can be an adjective. It can be a Noun typically as a Noun that's used derogatorily but it can be used as a fun Noun for some people but definitely I. 16:51.89 Marcus Really like the term queer as a verb because you can literally queer anything and ah in in doing that you can. It's a good way to reclaim a lot of what we a lot of the things that we've grown up with that have been oppressive toward us if we can queer them and kind of change and make them sometimes. Sometimes by means of parody sometimes ah by means of just like breaking it down to its barest essentials and being like ah this is the essence of what it is you know and removing the problematic nature of it. We can. Really take back. A lot of the things that have hurt us So I Really like the term queer as a verb because because of the power that it has in that Way. So. 17:33.71 Jala-chan And you know I was having a conversation earlier today about ah film noir um and the hardboiled detective stereotype or or archetype rather from film noir and just noir media in general. And how problematic that is but like how the aesthetic concepts of noir ah film. You know cinematography are very appealing to me and I grew up with like a love of the hardboiled detective type but without actually like okay, hardboiled detective type. Is very world weary very jaded but also always like a white male who's always um, talking crap about everybody who's not a white male who acts the same way and it's very horrible and toxic and you know we were we were discussing about. You know, um, ways to evolve that past like the 40 s you know to because that's like a pretty ah huh. 18:38.11 Marcus Um I have a wonderful recommendation movie recommendation if you have not seen it Joseph Gordon Levitt in brick an excellent movie. It's an it's ah a noir detective murder mystery that takes place in a Southern California high school. 18:58.11 Marcus And Joseph Gordon Levitt plays a high school senior who is the hardboil detective. Basically they take all of the archetypes and make them high school kids and it's brilliant. It's ah the None movie that got Ryan Johnson on the map before long before star wars episode episode 8 Ah. 19:16.54 Marcus It's really good. It is so so good. So yeah, if you want to see a breakdown of tropes it's That's the one of the best ones. 19:22.16 Briar That sounds awesome and that's like um, what what? I think Jollo is getting it to and are at least and the way I interpret it too is like this country for so long and as one of the primary like out import exports of media that we have. 19:41.13 Briar A lot of our language focuses on this country's history and the language of certain genres just end up being inherently considered ah conservative just by showing a singular perspective that could be if expanded upon like a universal theme you know like. 20:00.46 Briar On we and depression and things like that and things that I a company know are a lot like those are potentially universal things. But it's like what Jolla was talking about when you watch just a movie marathon and 90% of it is the actual. language of the camera the language of the cinema is just like the hardboiled white guy going. What's this world coming to and he's just like pointing at x minority group. 20:32.56 Briar Like even if the intention ah ah is like a progressive message of like oh we're all just people. It's still like the language of the camera is just focusing on this guy is having a hard life. This guy is sad and it's all a sudden those people fall. 20:46.45 Jala-chan Yeah, yeah, so so um, querying up media and different genres, especially 1 such. As for example, Noir is something that you know needs to be done more I love it. Absolutely so. 20:46.63 Marcus Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 21:06.36 Jala-chan Um I did want to ask and this was something that Brey or you were already talking about a little bit before um, we shifted a little bit ah talking about ways in which you find yourself challenged on account of your intersecting qualities. You were just talking about that. Ah professionally. How that was occurring. So do you want to expound on that a little bit. 21:28.54 Briar So yeah I worked for 7 years in an environmental group. Um I'm not sure where my and Nda's lay with a lot of things so I'm not going to name like my actual area code or company or anything like that. But um. 21:46.24 Briar So I present as male easily when I am I'm not out at work. Um, so you know I put on the flannel and the jeans and tuck my shirt and all that kind of stuff and I wear I'm a steel toes kind of job so apart from my hair color i. Don't have a lot of visible queerness. You know there's a couple of things like ah a couple of the body modifications or grooming techniques I do that might tip off a canny eye. But um, you know a lot of the times I can chameleon in and like I said I come from a very white area. Um. My family familial lascent is like pure polish too. So um I am very white myself and ah part of the harassment was not even intentional, but it was creating that hostile work environment of like these. These guys that thought I was one of them are constantly presenting like ah you know like I learned who Ben Shapiro was just because I knew what arguments were going to be thrown in my face two months down the line from my coworkers. 22:58.96 Briar Um, whether I agreed or not they loved a captive audience and like it just after 7 years of that it got so untenable um stuff like a neo-nazi News Rag appeared frequently on a coworker's desk at. 23:17.62 Briar So it's just like it feels like it's walking into like a hornet's nest and you are not a hornet you know what I mean ah eventually it just became untenable. Um, ah the more they turned on me and just so I got out of there. 23:36.11 Briar Um, and got into a better position but that was also part of the privilege was my wife was working at the time. Um and you know I have a solid relationship with her and I I have a stable home life I could not have left that job. 23:53.90 Briar If that weren't the case. Um, and I would I got to be a house spouse for a while which was wonderful. In fact, the only reason I returned to work is a a personal favor to a family member. Um, but I was real good at. 24:10.34 Briar Being the house spouse and I live in such a small town that all a sudden they know they know brier's not working you know so I had like a layer of scrutiny just as someone who never even left the house. Um. 24:27.68 Briar Unless they thought I was working out like I do solid workss and stuff like that I do kick computer aided draftic thing and every once in a while picked up Spec works. So I'd just be like yeah I'm on a contract that I could work on at my desk So but the reality is I was cleaning house and cooking and having the time of my life like ah I enjoy being her spouse quite a bit. Ah but that's just complete privilege is like um yeah I'm not going to have kids. 25:05.22 Briar Um, and part of it. Ah and I just had that financial security that most of America does not get um and yeah we we we took a major hit for that. But also since I was not like our you know we lived within our means. 25:24.66 Briar Um, but I can tell you if I had never had that gap of employment. Um I Certainly would be better off financially and ah. The the group I was with just won a bunch of safety awards. The company I'm in is like literally a year behind on everything and ah those safety awards were all like attributed to my efforts and now my name is just struck from the record So like. 25:56.41 Briar Yeah, that's just the hostile work environment ah of it and um, one of my so my supervisor did know I was queer and so that changes. 26:09.75 Briar The relationship a little bit with him was like every time he allowed these people to just say these awful awful things about how and I'm not like I don't know how much I'm exaggerating or not or like I know by. Not specifically saying the things people would say like your imagination is always worse than the reality but we had I had a guy who literally said he put 2 bullets in a gay guy's head let alone any of those transes. And I'm like sitting there like fricking sweating just like you. 26:38.27 Jala-chan Oh boy Oh oh man. Yeah yeah, yeah, like I haven't had that exact experience. But as somebody who is a white passing Latina. Um. 26:44.78 Marcus I can imagine. 26:57.48 Jala-chan You know I've absolutely been in situations where I'm around people who assume that I'm white and they will say things and they will do things that are really bad. You know that are absolutely terrible. Ah you know about minorities about this or that and they just you know don't think. 27:16.71 Jala-chan Anything of it until you know? ah I end up tearing them a new butthole because I'm not going to stand for that kind of behavior. So you know, um, but yeah like I I have also had that experience of of being someone who people assume is 1 thing or or another. 27:35.88 Jala-chan You know that I am not you know people assume that I am just you know like a standard issue a female white female you know and it's like no I'm not actually but ah, you know they say and do certain things assuming this identity on me, you know of me. So. 27:54.23 Jala-chan Marcus how about your experiences with this kind of subject? 27:56.57 Marcus God Where do I begin all right? So okay, so ah in terms of like being in the hornet's nest but not being a hornet. Um, so one. Ah so I'll start with work stuff first. So. You know, working at a person working as a personal trainer working with this company. Um I actually had an interestingly pleasant experience coming out there. Um, when I came out as nonbinary at work. 28:27.80 Marcus I emailed like my boss and I was like hey I want to change my pronouns in my bio because we have these bios that are on these screens that go around the different fitness centers and I said hey I want to change my bio. So my pronouns are in there and she was just like oh my gosh. That's great cool. We can totally do that. Um, and then. 28:44.28 Marcus I thought it was just goingnna be kind of a low-key I just okay putting my pronouns in there and then not having to think about it. But then there was like this mass email that went to every single employee that contained a Pdf of the company's Lgpq Hall lgp q inclusion policy and I was like oh oh oh okay, this this. 29:04.19 Marcus Turned into kind of a big thing all right shit. Um, and it turned out fine. You know I've got to wear my little they them Pronoun pin at work and it was really cool. Ah, but like so I had a positive and a negative experience because with the company. 29:22.85 Marcus And with the other people I worked with everything was great with the gym attendees. It was not so great. Um I you know you know, explained people you know these are my I explained to like my classes or to my clients that like hey these are my pronouns I'm officially I'm out at work. So if you see that on. 29:42.66 Marcus The screen there when my bio comes up. This is why blah blah blah and some people are just like all right cool but then like in class I would still get mis gendered constantly and I tried to implement an enforcement policy of anytime somebody misgendered me in a fitness class I would make them do five burpees 30:02.64 Marcus Ah, they did not like that. Ah and but unfortunately it didn't actually change their behavior. It just got them to complain to my boss so I was just kind of like ah fine. You don't have to do burpees every time you misgender meal I'll come up with something else I guess I don't know. 30:20.56 Marcus But so that part kind of sucked. But overall it was reasonably pleasant like after there's a little bit of a like there's kind of a tension period where people were just kind of getting used to the idea and then after like two or three weeks it was fine. Um, but it's still just like. Just kind of annoying because people would still you know they would people would still he him me and I'm just kind of like could you not Um, so there was that but on a more interesting note. So ah Jala you mentioned I didn't mention this in my in the show here. But um, so. 30:58.00 Marcus I have experience in modeling also and so one of the things that would happen. There is people as a model people would just assume I was a black male model and they would have and they would have assumptions about how I was going to be modeling in any given situation because of that. 31:17.96 Marcus And then I would you know be like well let me get ready you know and they're thinking What do you need to get ready for. Do you did you like bring a lot of wardrobe or whatever. It's like oh I did bring wardrobe but I need to put my makeup on and they're like what now and I pull out my makeup case and all my brushes and I'm doing the thing you know and they're like oh. 31:37.94 Marcus And suddenly people are just like oh my goodness wait. Okay, so yeah, you can't just treat me like a Derek Zoolander type male model. First of all, not white but also like you can't just you know you can't just treat me like you know like your standard male model. Any assumptions you have about how I'm going to model I'm going to shoot down because that's not what I'm going to do. 31:57.41 Marcus And on top of that I was a nude model too. So like you know I did all kinds of stuff but I was a nude model kind of primarily and so people would think I was going to pose a particular way that was like manly or whatever just because I have muscles. It's like no, that's not what I'm That's not what I'm doing. 32:13.83 Marcus I am trying to like that's not the kind of portfolio I'm trying to build while I am capable of doing that and while it's fine in certain Contexts That's not what I'm trying to have the majority of my portfolio to be so like that was an interesting thing to kind of get people to wrap their brains around you know and some folks. 32:31.44 Marcus Ah, we're totally on board with it like right cool. This will be a nice experiment or whatever you know and then other people were not so great I had an experience where I was at a modeling workshop and a photographer upon finding out that he was going to have to work with me as part of like his section of the thing left. 32:49.59 Marcus Just walked out or just like well fuck you dude you know? um, um, and then so there was that but then I had another experience where a photographer who actually has been like gaining traction recently in certain communities ah shot with me and everything loved every picture that came out of it. 33:09.18 Marcus Um, put me you know, posted me in his Instagram stories like oh my gosh you know one of the best models I've ever worked with but bla blah blah blah blah um, and then that story disappeared from Instagram you know the 24 hours passed and then I was never seen in his portfolio ever again his portfolio to this day. 33:23.58 Jala-chan Oh lord. 33:28.72 Marcus Is nothing but like you know your standard you know curvy says women and I'm just likeh as like wait if I'm one of the best models you ever worked with why aren't I in your portfolio right? and it's because he can't mark like he will lose followers. 33:47.57 Marcus And lose money if I am in his portfolio and that's not the None time I've run into that either. So that was just kind of a shot in the chest I was like oh god this is terrible but then. 34:01.53 Marcus Here's the really funny part. So I also do photography I'd been doing photography before I had been modeling but I was like let me you know, get my feet with us a photographer I have this new camera. Let me kind of mess with this and so I started to go to these modeling workshops as a photographer instead of a model but with the same people who I had previously been modeling with right. 34:20.54 Marcus So now I'm on the art of other side of the camera. Let me just tell you photographers talk differently when they're not around models and some of it is absolutely terrible. 34:36.46 Marcus Like the absolute most misogynist worst rape cultural Bullshit you've ever heard and I was just like you do realize that all of the models you're talking about are people who a I was working with just last month when I was here as a model and also they're my friends. Do you think I'm not going to tell them what you're saying. 34:55.39 Marcus You know and love yeah, they would say like terrible things like they didn't it didn't register with them maybe because I didn't have a full face of makeup on that I was the same person who they had just been who had just been on the other side of the camera thirty days prior and I was like how do you not? Why are you saying that? What is wrong. 35:15.30 Marcus you right you know and so it's ah so that was just like ah and that kind of is what made that experience the combined experience with those 2 things kind of made me want to get out of modeling entirely but also has now fueled what I want fueled. My interest in intimacy coordination also because intimacy coordinators in some areas actually do get used on on model photography sets like Playboy hires intimacy coordinators for all of their shoots now. Um, and so I was like okay, cool. Let's take this. 35:49.61 Marcus Knowledge this this vocabulary around intimacy coordination around keeping people safe on set and everything let's take that into model photography at large I want it so I want to you know, part of my goal with that is to besides working in like Tv and film or whatever is to take that. Into the model photography sphere on the levels that I was working because that's where the help is needed. You know so i. 36:09.14 Jala-chan Yeah, yeah for sure and it's the thing about you Marcus is that like ah you your existence is just intersectionality because of. The various things that you do with yourself and all of the different hats. You've worn in your life and everything so like you know it? Um I would imagine that it would be very exhausting for you to just every single day you get up. You have to go out there and combat/advocate for basically everything because yeah, yeah, um. 36:48.37 Marcus I Mean sometimes it's like that. Yeah, sometimes it really feels like that I mean it depends on where I'm going you know like when I'm personal training I'm just you know I'm wearing athletic gear and whatever so people don't really deal with people don't really they won They don't perceive me. You know as a non-binary. 37:07.00 Marcus Not that there's any None particular way for somebody to be non binary but we have the stereotypical views. You know? and ah so people automatically just think I'm a black dude. Um, but then on top of all that one of the things that's interesting is yeah depending on where I show up people will have yeah these assumptions of me like okay. When I taught belly dance classes like when I taught belly dance classes at kink events. There's a loaded sentence. Um, so when I would do that right? I remember 1 time I taught my class there and I had a performance later and somebody ah you know later on. 37:43.42 Marcus Were like oh my God I Loved your class. It was so great like I never had you know a belly dance class taught by a guy before and I just kind of flatly looked at them and said you still haven't and they're like ah oh oh oh you know and they had to you know challenge their own mentality around it. Um. 38:02.41 Marcus And yeah, because people don't assume that assigned male at birth folks do belly dance and it's just like. Do you have Google but anyway so. 38:09.62 Briar Hit. Do you get into that because I have 2 minds a lot when people ah the few people I do correct or confront about that kind of thing. Um I have 2 minds of like some people are just. 38:29.33 Briar Sheltered and have never had like that's never been a possibility and I really like some of the people where I'm like no I'm I'm non biary and their eyes just get big in they're like like just. 38:44.41 Briar Like their conception of gender just kind of expands for a moment I'm like Okay, so even though even though you served me, you're still kind of like you're one of the cooler people. But then there are just people I get that will immediately like quadruple down on the sir. 38:57.59 Marcus Yeah, when it's met with curiosity and like genuine openness. It's great. Even if it's a little bit frustrating to have to explain the thing again you know, but at least they're being earnest about it. But yeah, when people just intentionally do the thing. It's like all right. This battle is not worth fighting. You know. 39:15.48 Briar Yeah, like a lot of the times in the larger argument. We're framed so much as like we're being completely unreasonable but like I don't know and I know I'm just a single person and it is all anecdotal but like I afford infinite grace as long as it's like a teaching experience. But at the moment malice enters the equation that Grace disappears and people people are like oh wow you're so impatient and rude and I'm like I don't know I gave this person six months of trying to get it right. 39:48.12 Marcus Right? Yeah, well gave this person 75 second chances what more do you want. 39:54.81 Jala-chan Ah, yeah, yeah, well and then to like when someone is intentionally doing something you know to spite you? How are you supposed to return back to that and just be like oh yeah, it's fine. No. 40:14.56 Jala-chan No, that's not how that works you know like you can't just take a dump on somebody's lawn and you know expect them to not react to it. You know like that's that's not a thing you know. 40:23.92 Marcus Yes, exactly. 40:23.98 Briar Someone used a good analogy for me the other day is because I very much grew up in like a handshake. Everyone kind of area. Um, which is like you know politeness. There's some pageantry that you know it's a. 40:41.88 Briar Inherently a gesture giving respect and someone said well if you went to handshake with someone and punched them. You don't go Oh I meant to shake your hand you say I'm sorry I punched you and I thought that was an apt analogy for like. 41:01.29 Briar When you misgender someone or when you say something shitty to them. You know you apologize for the harm that came first and that's something we tend not to do when it comes to queer people or black people. Um I just and or any person of color and I know there's problems with flattening the experience of people of color into one term since that's such a broad spectrum. But um. 41:24.85 Marcus But yeah, when we're dealing with any marginalized community. The fact is we're going to eventually like there's going to be something you know we're going to eventually encounter something either because we didn't know well usually because we don't know if we're conscientious people. It's just like oh I didn't know about that. 41:44.15 Marcus You know and that is like my bad and you move on and then it's fine and but but yeah, when people just intentionally punch down. It's like all right? Okay, you're no so. 41:53.97 Jala-chan Yeah, and it's just weird to me how ah all of these entitled feeling people who are just like oh well, you're so rude about this, you know about whatever that you're defending and it's like um. You if somebody said something that offended you you would defend yourself from that. So How is this any different, especially since this is an assault on my identity who I am you know you were flatly like the thing about it is that if someone is making the mistake they are. Using the wrong pronoun or they you know assume something about you just because of however you look and then you know they apologize for it. That's a different thing entirely from refusing to see you as a person and instead treating you like. Ah thing and you know know like you're an object and I'm going to treat you However I want to rather than treating you as a human who you know deserves and you know should be given that respect. So. 43:08.40 Briar It's always interesting specifically on the line of gender too is like and not not to compare transness with like an animal but you walk up to a rando on the street who's got a dog and you're like what's his name and some people just. Give you the nastiest look. It's a her. Okay I'm sorry I did not check with your your your pet before transfering my bad but you could see it. It does matter to Cis people. 43:41.29 Briar And when they act like it doesn't matter at all is like incredibly disingenuous if you could do that on the street and like um this goes back to like a safety incident. 43:55.91 Briar That happened in 1 of the factories in the valley a couple years ago is someone had a um ah they had a lost time incident they and got hurt and sorry to use corpos speak. But um, they got hurt and ah. 44:14.75 Briar I was on a safety team for years and years and years and when talking about the incident I said well if this gentleman stuck his hand in a thing like we need to address the reasons why he thought that was okay and you know like I was just trying to cover my bases. 44:32.49 Briar And there was someone at the table who just like immediately made it their image. Ah they and this was a learning moment for me as well. Um, they were like well it was a she who did it and so my learning moment was just because I work with a bunch of guys that do unsafe things all the time. 44:51.20 Briar It doesn't mean it's always guys. Um, but like there was no malice. No intention to Miss Gender Ah her you know I was literally coming in from like a board position of trying to solve safety issues. Um. 45:10.23 Briar And just chose the wrong pronoun and a Cis person was like I'm a I'm going to defend this Cis person and like so yeah, gender does matter to cis people. Even if people are disingenuous that it doesn't you know. 45:24.14 Jala-chan So I wanted to ask So we've talked about different ways in which you know ever. You guys have had um and you folks have had issues with your intersectionality and people having assumptions about those things but have there been moments in which you found yourself greatly benefiting from the intersectionality of all of these different identities that you have. Like I know Marcus you mentioned with your intimacy coordinator stuff that your experiences allow you to speak to a wide variety of different situations. So um, so are there other ways in which you found your various forms of identity to be beneficial. 46:21.55 Marcus Um, Well besides that I mean that's the main one so far is that yeah like I have such a wide variety of experiences to speak to I can be like oh well I've been in this situation and I know how this feels so blah Blah Blah Blah blah. Like so these are steps we can take to reduce harm in this area or whatever like that's been a primary thing. Um, one thing that has come up that um, that's a little more subtle is just okay so in personal training. Um. People who maybe don't realize I have the very gender experience that I have um when I am working with a client or whatever they I They don't they didn't quite how do I put this. They don't expect the level of empathy that I give um and they're just like oh and they're always pleasantly surprised by the fact that it it's like all right? No let's you know,? let's you know so take a step back and or you know maybe you know there have been some conversations like all right? Well, let's let's dig into your feelings about this for a second you know. 47:32.51 Marcus Because some because there have been times when some really heavy emotions have actually come up just in the course of a personal training session which is not something you immediately think of but um, yeah, there have been times I'll be like oh well hey and let's let's have a seat. Let's let's talk about this for a second I'm really sorry you're having a rough day. Let's you know, let's just. 47:51.80 Marcus You know, let's just chat about it and that's not necessarily a gendered thing but a lot of times. The reason people are having a rough time is because of something gendered. Um, and so yeah, when they do end up receiving that level of empathy from me. They're just like oh okay, wait. 48:10.24 Marcus You get this? Oh all, right hang on you know, um and like different ah different types of like physical things like ah I had a client who had pelvic floor issues and in belly dance training. We deal with pelvic floor and lower ab engagement all the time right. 48:29.67 Marcus So so that was something that I was able to help this person with and I wouldn't have been able to I wouldn't have had any idea if not for belly dance training. Um, and then there have been yeah like situations like that like I said mostly where people. 48:47.55 Marcus Didn't expect empathy and got it and it was beneficial for them in terms of beneficial in terms of being beneficial for me one. It leads to really good Yelp reviews. Um, and I have actually gained some clients because like I've gained some new clients because of these. Really good experiences with previous ones. Um, so you know because it's all about it's all about word of mouth really? Um, So there's that but then um, when it comes when it came to like modeling and things again. It was a lot of times. What happens is. 49:25.80 Marcus Yeah, like when I was modeling. You know other models who I'd worked with who who I would work with would have yeah unexpected moments of empathy from me that they then they were just like oh wow no, you actually do get it I I wouldn't have thought that you know, um. That's really what it boils down to None thing that's been really great is that I've been able to identify a lot with my daughter who is also nonbinary. She recently informed me she using she they pronouns she let me know just last week and I was like oh cool, you know. 49:59.12 Marcus Um, and so that's been interesting too because it's something like ah my family is of a like ah an oprah Winfrey Documentary waiting to happen. But um, so like both my former spouse. And my former spouse and his new spouse are both trends. Also um, and so my daughter is not coming up in at least when it comes to you know gender or sexuality expression anything like that. 50:32.61 Marcus She is not facing any limits. She has nothing but support in those areas. So anytime she feels the need to talk about that kind of thing or she wants to express a new aspect of her identity or you know reevaluate a new aspect of her identity. She always has somebody who's there who's going to support her whether it's me or whether it's the other 2 parents. So that's been really great. 50:52.00 Marcus Um, one of the things that's interesting is that um and I don't I don't know quite know the conversation. She's had with the other 2 parents. But None thing that when she was talking to me about gender stuff I told her I was just like hey you know what? that's awesome. I'm glad you I'm glad you understand this about yourself but also remember that you know. You're still she's turning 13 in a few days. You know it's like you're still a kid you know so you have time to figure all this out if this label works for you now that's awesome, but you don't have to you know you don't have to hold on to it forever something you might earn something that works better for you later on and that's great. So. 51:22.61 Jala-chan Yeah, and that yeah that that right there is something that I feel a lot of people don't understand about gender identity and identities. Overall um. 51:39.97 Jala-chan Your identity your so sense of self who you are as a person is not this immutable thing that you were born with and it's been the exact same way the entire time you've been alive. You know like your sense of self can change and. 51:56.67 Jala-chan You know it does does not necessarily have to change but it can change and so you know how you were five years ago may not be how you are now and it's kind of like your sense. 52:12.68 Jala-chan Of Self-identity is something that you always need to kind of check back in on because that's something that does change and it will change and you know when you were talking about stuff like for example, um, with your modeling and people being surprised by the way that you model because of you know. 52:32.51 Jala-chan Your sense of self your sense of gender your sense of everything you know, um I kind of feel very I feel that to my own ah extent in a different way like um for years and years I would do a lot of intense physical activities I would do. Long-term endurance rucking events and obstacle horse races like Ultra Marathon Distance Obstacle Horse Races Ultra Marathons themselves things like that and I would just you know, push myself to the physical limit and when I was doing those things. 53:06.99 Jala-chan I was just another body I wasn't a gender I was just a body doing a thing but I would so like I had to dance because that was my connection to my femininity and I found if I went too long without expressing that aspect of myself. 53:26.51 Jala-chan Then I started to like get depressed and like you know, not not expressing that part of myself was you know, really dramatically and negatively affecting me and when I was doing the belly dance and the whatever like. 53:38.20 Marcus Yes, yes. 53:44.16 Jala-chan I was the muscle like None pack and like the biceps and the whatever but in the cutesy little skirt doing the cutesy little belly ants in a super feminine fashion I would do all the movements in a very very feminine coded way but like with. Ah musculature and like the types of poses that I would do you know? Um, when I was making different body lines and stuff were not the same as anyone else's because of my sense of self and my sense of presence and and how I put myself out in the world is very different like you know, um. I might do the the sexy pole dance stuff. But then I you know like there would be power stances in there. You know that's just that's me I am Jala Jala is a thing that changes and grows. It's you know like I'm not a not one static. 54:40.40 Briar Can I Ah can I pitch a question to you based on what you just were talking about and forgive me for the clumsiness. But I've heard a lot of the times like societally we try. 54:58.77 Briar We view masculinity as a default and my personal experience as an aab person who is being on binary and just loves every second they get to be them. Um, when I when I am feminine. I find it's an act of like putting in more effort and I've always like I used to chalk that up to oh I'm amab so I have to try harder to do femme stuff but I've noticed like there's this very in in America. There's a very cultural like. Masculine is the default feminine is the stuff that requires effort. Um, and it's interesting here. You talk about like a similar feeling to what I've got twisting in my brain about that. Um, as an afab person. Do you find that sometime you're. Sometimes your femininity is something you have to go out of the way at way for. 55:58.15 Jala-chan I Feel like if like I have to okay, um, the way that my gender expression tends to work is kind of like an on off switch like ah. 56:14.24 Briar Oh and ah sorry the the that line of question also comes from like when you said you were rocking you said ah you were just a body doing things and um I find that the default being masculinity and the default of body doing thing like those get conflated. 56:52.39 Jala-chan Yes, Yes, yeah, yeah, so when I'm doing it hears see I mentioned it a little bit in the performance and identity episode with sarahif. But um when I do a lot of different types of. 56:53.55 Briar Frequently and that that's just where that line of questioning comes from. 57:11.72 Jala-chan Physical activities unless they are specifically things that are typically coded in our society as being feminine such as belly dance for example, which originally was not. You know like it was men were performing belly dance but whatever Anyway, that's not the point. Um. In our current society Belllet dance is considered a very feminine dance Poll Dance is usually considered a very feminine dance. Um, so if I'm doing one of those things I slip into being feminine easily. But I also have this super hyper consciousness about. How I'm standing and how I'm moving and how I look because I can see in the studio mirrors. All of these cutesy little Girls. You know in the class with me who are all super slim and tiny and you know little Ah, little folks, you know, very bendy doing doing their pole dance stuff and then there's me and I look like a bodybuilder who just stepped out of that gym and just you know changed into this outfit to come and be on the pole for a little while and it it's interesting because it makes me feel kind of like an imposter but you know because like ah I don't look like. 58:28.27 Jala-chan I fit where I'm at you know, um, but that doesn't take away from like I still feel feminine when I'm in my eight inch heels doing my dance or whatever. Um, but I definitely have this awareness that. I'm not I'm not fitting the mold that I am ah given in this space. You know that I I don't fit None into this bubble I am more of like you know this intersection of a bunch of different bubbles. 59:04.91 Jala-chan That this happens to be 1 of the little slivers of bubble. You know it does that make any sense so like um when it comes to rocking I actually get really really upset. Ah when I'm rucking and then I'm like ah most of the time on rucking events. It's all super male dudes. You know. 59:24.63 Jala-chan Supermanly dudes doing the rucking events and so when I'm there and I'm doing the rucking events and they treat me differently I get really upset because I'm like I can do this faster harder and better than you You know like you need to step off you know and. 59:44.33 Jala-chan The way that I behave the way that I act my default when I'm doing the rucking events is a masculine way I do not act feminine I do not speak feminine like the way that you say words the parts of your mouth and your throat that you use when you are. 01:00:02.22 Jala-chan Speaking in a masculine fashion are different than those of Feminine. So ah, anthropologically speaking you know you do different things you speak a different way when you assume a different you know like a gender expression like that and right now I'm speaking in a feminine fashion. And um I don't know if both of you have ever heard me when I speak in a more masculine fashion but it sounds very very different and um when I'm doing rucking events I don't sound like I do right now I sound masculine I I use. 01:00:39.60 Jala-chan The deeper part of my throat and the more closed mouth way of speaking and I sound I'm putting myself out there in the world and acting like my body language. Everything it all changes and that is my default when I'm doing something like a rocking event an obstacle Horse race. Um, you know an ultramarathon Any of those things I'm definitely more in a masculine mode doing that even when I'm lifting like I'm usually more on the masculine end of things although there are definitely times where. I will be in between sets and if it's a light enough set I'll have the bar on my shoulders from having just done a bunch of squats and then I'll just do like dancing with the bar on my shoulders you know or whatever you know with my little weight belt on that's very difficult to do. But anyway, um. 01:01:29.73 Jala-chan Ah, so you know it it does it. It. It changes a little bit but like it's interesting because um, for example, when it comes to lifting I tend to assume a more masculine attitude when I am lifting and you know. Everything about my behavior changes when I'm doing that but I also find that I get super self conscious about it when I see myself in the mirror with the short hair that I have now because ah I identify like. The longer hair I identify more strongly with being feminine than I do this short hair that I've got right now and although yes I can I have my hair like a bunch of different colors and it's super curly and cute and I can put little hairpins in it. Um, and that's cutesy and girly. It's still like at the end you know when it comes to me lifting and I'm looking in the mirror and I'm seeing the muscles and the whatever like if I don't have the longer hair I feel weirdly insecure about my femininity like the expression of my femininity in that moment and I'm that's actually something I'm currently trying to work on and figure out. My way through like puzzle my way through because I don't want to just be like that's it I have to grow my hair back out because I can't I can't take this short hair like I don't I don't think that's the solution there I have to explore that aspect of my gender a little bit further to figure out what. What I need to do you know so and and it's really weird because it definitely is a situation where the masculine aspects of my personality show the most when I'm doing physical intense activities. 01:03:18.73 Jala-chan If I'm doing podcasting if I'm playing games if I'm doing reading or studying or explaining something to someone I don't do that. It's only when I'm physically doing things and I think it's probably in my case because when I was growing up. My dad owned his own remodeling business and was a trade iron worker before that. So um I and and meanwhile like my my house was very very binary. My mother was a stay at home mom for a long number of years until I was like None or None ah, and so. She was the homemaker who would cook and clean and do this and that and my dad would go out and do all of these different physical activities and stuff so like from when I was very small I was socialized to think of all of these physical activities as being masculine things. And so that's how that got identified with that to where my behavior naturally gravitates towards a more masculine expression when I'm doing those things because that's just that's how I was raised I was raised with that as my ah example, you know and um. 01:04:33.80 Jala-chan The ways in which my super binary household have you know, ah caused negative effects are so many that I'm still trying to unpack to this day. Ah, but that is also yeah, but that is like. 01:04:42.70 Marcus Um, feel that yeah. 01:04:48.48 Jala-chan That's also why my expression of self my expression of gender in particular is very much like a light switch. It's one way or it's the other way. There's not really any in-between I find that I feel um depressed if I end up somewhere That's not on either end. 01:05:07.63 Jala-chan So I If I'm presenting Male. There's no question I am extremely masculine at that time if I am presenting female. There is no question. It is very very obvious and you know intentional with that presentation. So um. That's why like my my sense of gender is ah a strange one that is still being explored is because like it. It is a sense of gender Fluidity fluidity that is still binary like I can't I know but that's well and. 01:05:40.12 Marcus Um, I mean that's real though I have ah have a I have a partner who is like that who is like. 01:05:47.46 Jala-chan And it's and I feel sometimes I feel like I Okay, everybody's gender Identity is valid but I feel sometimes like boy this is a cop out this is like Crap. What is this. This sense of of okay my my identity is I have to be like the you know a binary like that's Weird. You know, but that's that's where I fall at this particular time. So yeah, so did did did that answer your question brier. 01:06:09.79 Marcus That's real as hell. 01:06:22.23 Jala-chan Or did I just make more questions. 01:06:23.30 Briar No I Think that's a really really good answer. Um, it's especially ah, very like made me a little introspective too because like my non binaryiness is um. You know, getting rid of the Toggle is what matters to me for gender euphoria. Um, you know sometimes I get gender euphoria from doing masculine things. Sometimes I get it from doing feminine things. Ah but just like I think are. 01:06:59.15 Briar Differences are what solidifies some of my feelings towards like yeah like that that that's cool as hell your valid as hell. Um, it ain't me yet, you know what I mean but um, yeah I Just I think that's radical and like. 01:07:18.58 Briar To me. It's a superpower to be able to like Toggle like that. But it's also not the superpower I Want you know what? I mean. 01:07:24.23 Jala-chan Yeah I understand entirely well and and the thing is is that you know Briar because okay, a spoiler for everybody listening Briar was my first non-binary identifying friend. So. 01:07:44.70 Jala-chan Ah, Briar knows because they've been there. Ah you know I had such a hard time wrapping my head around someone wanting to identify as non-binary because of how my gender experiences have been and how negative I feel. When I'm not None or the other thing so like it wasn't like ah any any form of like okay you're you're invalid or anything like that. No, it's valid I just don't understand because my sense of self is so opposite of that. You know so like when you're when you're talking about it Briar and you're like yeah that's cool, not me at all I'm like I know we we've talked about this for hours and hours over the years 01:08:28.10 Briar He Yeah, that's something we and it wasn't like a straight linear path that we got to these philosophies is just like it is through work and self-actualization and just like straight up just good healthy dialogue. We've had and about it. You know. 01:08:49.42 Jala-chan Oh yeah, and that's the thing too is that like both of us have kind of grown into the identities that we have currently of course but we were both there to see each other go through this process so you know it's It's interesting for that reason because it's like. 01:09:08.75 Jala-chan You know I I think it's really beautiful because to see somebody uncover their truth and then live their truth is just one of the most beautiful things you can see because When. You see that person as they are and they see themselves as they are and you know there's that mutual understanding and respect. That's like the best thing in the world and when it comes to to interacting with other people in my opinion. 01:09:45.27 Jala-chan So Marcus as you were saying that one of your partners also had the same. 01:09:49.64 Marcus Yeah, yeah, so I have a partner of mine who identifies as by gender specifically because of that because they have very strong swings. It's like up today's a he day. Oh nope today's a she day you know and they have very strong swings in that direction and they actually want to. 01:10:09.50 Marcus Take some medical intervention to you know to help along with that too so that when they're so that they can very easily toggle between the 2 in terms of like their presentation and everything. Um, so it's really, it's really interesting just to hear. 01:10:25.30 Marcus The way you talk about it versus the way that they're talking about it just yesterday and I was like that's interesting. Ah yeah, so it's pretty cool. It's it's just it's ah to hear different people's experience of it sounds so similar. 01:10:38.75 Jala-chan Um, and and so different I know and the thing is is that I I really thought about by gender as well and was like well since I have this on you know, basically switch that I flip between the 2 things it wouldn't it wouldn't. 01:10:43.40 Marcus But of course using a much different set of words. Yeah. 01:10:56.96 Jala-chan Makes sense for me to just say I'm bigender and I'm like no, that's not really the experience that I feel of myself in the reason for that is because when I am None or the other as much as it is a switch and there is like um you know this toggle that goes on in my head my presentation of cells still contains. Both things in in everything in between like when I am in feminine pole dancing form and I am in my little skimpy outfit with my high heels and I'm doing the sexy dance and it's a super feminine sexy dance I still have. 01:11:33.60 Jala-chan All of those super strong muscles and all of this this ah forthrightness that you know is part of my more masculine you know form of self. So. 01:11:46.85 Jala-chan It never goes away. It's not like I do 100% switch like everything about myself. It's it's all still there. That's why I say fluid gender fluid rather than bigender and again. 01:11:58.55 Marcus Yeah, yeah, the way you talk about that sounds actually really similar to me in a strange kind of way because like okay so I've had like when I first came out I was like I want to explore all the feminine things and I was like these are a pain in the ass. 01:12:16.73 Marcus And then and like ah and then you know I was figuring a lot of stuff out a lot of different things at the same time and so when I got to when I came to pretty much where I am now is just like okay, yeah, so non-binary kind of edging towards age gender a little bit but like when it comes to my presentation. One of the things that I said it was a. It was a joke at the time but it does kind of pan out like None of the reasons that like I don't like to keep any hair anywhere other than like my eyebrows you know and like my eyelashes of course nobody's shaving those but like other than that it's just because you know I like to think of myself as kind of like I use the term genderless mannequin because you can make a mannequin look anyway with anything you know and it's just like that would be pretty cool. You know and um and I kind of like I like that feeling of it. Ah because you know because that means. 01:13:11.88 Marcus Ah, cool. We're going to take this mannequin and put this mannequin in athletic gear and cool. We're going to the gym right? you know or you know and now we're going to take this mannequin and put them in a suit because we're going here or you know we're going to this event and we want to look this way for it. So we're going to change the clothes on the mannequin to present this image for this for the. 01:13:29.96 Marcus You know, whatever event it is whatever I'm doing um and so yeah, it's It's been weird with a pandemic because I haven't been going anywhere you know, but. 01:13:36.50 Jala-chan Yeah, and the pandemic boy that that has done some weird things insofar as just like sense of identity because so much of identity for me at least is performative. Um. 01:13:52.28 Jala-chan I Perform my gender I perform my identity. That's why like wearing so different types of clothing specifically is a very big in all of my accessories and stuff all of that is very important to me because all of those things that I adorn myself with. Are bits of my identity that I am putting out there in order for people to see them and understand something about me and that changes as my clothes as my whatever change you know, like that's my taste change everything and so like all of that is in my physical presentation. 01:14:27.39 Jala-chan Um, and part of that is because I you know I have worn many hats I have been very many different things and I like that story to show when someone sees me because of things like you know, um. 01:14:45.24 Jala-chan Not being understood having things assumed about you because of the way that you look well if you are playing into that that stereotype or whatever you know like if you are presenting yourself as that stereotype. Well then you know like that doesn't mean that these people are okay for assuming things about you but like. 01:15:04.49 Jala-chan If you are putting into your exterior. A lot of the things that are going on on the interior then you are putting it out there for people to see and know you. On a glance a little bit better than if you weren't putting that effort in does that make sense. Yeah, so like when doing you know, ah that kind of presentation. But oh yeah, I'm not going anywhere. You know. 01:15:35.88 Jala-chan Well nobody sees me anymore and like I have a nose ring now that I didn't have before pandemic and no one will ever see it because of my mask because I still mask up everywhere and no one will ever know that I have this nose ring unless I have like a really big one on and then I start streaming on the internet. That's the only time anyone will see it. 01:15:55.80 Jala-chan So you know, um and it's It's so weird but like I've definitely felt a lot of different ways since Pandemic just because I'm not able to be me in a place where people can see it and recognize it. 01:16:09.76 Marcus Right? Yeah, no exactly yeah one of the things about the pandemic it kind of solidified the more a gender side of things because just kind of like well I'm just going to be comfortable. So yeah, and so that's pretty much what's been going on and so yeah, like a lot of. 01:16:28.69 Marcus Plus the fact that you know put on some pandemic pounds. So a lot of my more femme stuff doesn't fit the same way you know and I don't feel as comfortable in it and like yeah the way my body shape has changed in the ways that it's changed. It's definitely kind of it's affected my perception of my own gender. 01:16:47.65 Marcus Based on how my body looks also and so I'm in the process of like working through that and reclaiming it too. So that's been out the community. 01:16:55.00 Jala-chan I yeah I I got a couple of different injuries and also there's just been absolute chaos this year generally at Jalahouse. So I have tried to get back into doing my usual routine and. 01:17:14.00 Jala-chan Had everything blow up in my face multiple times throughout this year and so I am right there with you where like I am larger than I like to be and it's not like there's anything wrong with being this size but my presentation of self my physical expression. 01:17:31.89 Jala-chan Hinges on my capacity to you know, ah wear this type of thing or this type of thing or this or that and like I can't none of that's fitting me right now the way that I want it to and so it's actually affecting a larger sense of identity. It's I Just don't feel physically happy. 01:17:50.85 Jala-chan With where I'm at right moment and that has nothing to do with the scale that is just like my presentation of self and what that looks like like I don't feel especially feminine right now because a lot of my feminine clothes as you say. 01:18:07.43 Jala-chan You know lots of feminine clothes are a lot tighter than masculine clothes are and so like a lot of my stuff would fit perfectly before but like right now it doesn't fit meate So you know like that's actually affecting me in that way and you know like it's again, it's It's not scale related. It is not like. 01:18:27.43 Jala-chan Oh you know some kind of body Dysphoria in terms of that but just like my relationship with my body and what I want my body to look like um you know like that is part of my identity because you know like that super ripped look who can also pull off these. 01:18:46.29 Jala-chan You know, very girly things and you know all of this others like that is me that is who I am that is my interior and I want my exterior to echo that and when it doesn't line up. You know it's it's I was actually talking about that with a Trans friend. Um. 01:19:05.90 Jala-chan Um, out like body Dysphoria and identity and how those things you know line up and that's something that's very common for Trans folks of course because their you know relationship with the body that they inhabit is so at odds with their personal identity. 01:19:23.49 Jala-chan You know at least until they get you know their treatment where they want it and it's almost never like you know, ah total satisfaction if you will you know? So so like that's a whole whole nother topic right? there. 01:19:36.92 Marcus Um, yeah, that's a that's we that that's that's a separate hour yeah 01:19:40.13 Jala-chan Yeah, exactly so so Briar ah, how about you when it comes to like ah all of this identity presentation stuff like you've mentioned that you tend to just pass mail in in. 01:19:59.32 Jala-chan Do that but like how yeah yeah, so how does that look for you though. 01:19:59.42 Briar Especially places that I'm I'm not out. Um, so I've I've got a bizarre relationship with my body is because I've always been a giant. So um, you know. 01:20:18.90 Briar A lot of the times that is like from a young age. My body was the enemy. So I'm not very like torn up about when it doesn't when it's not just just so and my goals are going for good enough. 01:20:36.43 Briar A lot of the times and it's weird what like triggers Dysphoria and euphoria in me is like for years after I came out I didn't shave my my face and that's because I couldn't de gender my chin or. 01:20:56.40 Briar Um, feminize my chin in a way that like it looked good to me So the ostensibly more masculine beard that covered the Chin ah ah was. 01:21:11.50 Briar Ah, better for my dysphoria than actually looking at my chin um and stuff like you know you know how? Ah yeah, and it's different for everyone like where your fat caps are distributed and things like that is part of. 01:21:29.26 Briar You know, fixing my back injury and stuff as I've been working on my core a lot more and I'm getting I'm getting tone on my tummy like so I still have a big you know happy giant tummy but I'm I'm getting like an external 6 pack. You know how like. 01:21:49.13 Briar A lot of masculine people Their their fat cap is below their muscle cap and vice versa. So I'm getting tone on my tummy and I'm a little proud of that. But I'm also like it's starting to cross the line to where I'm like it's masculinizing me a little bit. 01:22:06.73 Briar But there's also the reckoning of like when I when I decided my nonbinaryiness because at first I came out as a gender as like I don't feel gender at all and then I started picking up traits and cultural signifiers like a grab bag. 01:22:26.38 Briar And I'm like oh not only am I a gender I am all the gender. So so I think the reckoning I've come to with my tummy is I'm like yeah my fat caps external but it looks good right now I'm proud of that So that. 01:22:44.25 Briar It's nice to have like a masculine trait where I'm like that's the one I pick. That's the one I choose. It's cute on me. Ah, um. 01:22:49.55 Marcus Right? one? Yeah, you run into an interesting kind of a weird kind of paradox with that actually with my physicality. What I found is that the more masculine that I look. Quote Unquote like the more muscular or like ripped or whatever that I look the more feminine I feel. 01:23:09.80 Jala-chan And you know something about that that I've thought about when it comes to poll is that there are a bunch of different male pole dancers and nonbinary and Trans and everybody of of course everybody does pole but like I follow a number of. 01:23:28.77 Jala-chan Really really good. Ah pole dancers who are not female and at a certain point the you know whatever the pole dancers is they ah they are. Ah. 01:23:44.89 Jala-chan Muscled in a certain amount to a certain degree I mean maybe I'm more muscular than most but you know they have some kind of musculature to some degree or another but like the the ones that are not female will often still wear a little like midriff top or something like that and at some point you just. 01:24:04.47 Jala-chan Forget what you're looking at Insofar as like a gender of the body in front of you. Um, you're not even looking at that. It's just this is a body on a pole doing a thing and that's just something that I've thought of in terms of pole dance and or specific because with that. There's just it's it's interesting to me because I don't find that to be the case when it comes to belly dance so much but with pole for some reason it feels more um, like a more leveled of ah a field when it comes to just seeing the body on the pole doing the thing that they're doing and. 01:24:43.19 Jala-chan Um, yeah, like it's interesting because it's just like no, that's just a body and it's like ah it might have masculine traits or it might be a male identifying person on the pole but the execution you could overlay it with anybody else of any other body. 01:25:02.53 Jala-chan You know and it would just be. It's just another body. It's just a body doing the thing you know, um and that's something that I actually think is really interesting about poll because I don't find that to be the case with ah every form of dance. 01:25:18.33 Jala-chan So far I've only seen that with pole where I've felt that particular way watching a bunch of people doing pole. So anyway, so yeah, like ah the more ripped you get or whatever. But then you feel more feminine like you know like it's yeah. 01:25:30.95 Marcus Yeah, yeah, it's I always found that to be paradoxical but I've just come to accept it because I don't understand why that's like I guess this is just how my brain works. Okay, so. 01:25:40.87 Briar But yeah that that that's the beard versus chin thing with me is I eventually like if I tried to describe that Dysphoria It just lands on well ain't that a bitch. 01:25:59.91 Jala-chan And you know it's It's interesting to me that you mention the beard though because I know of a bunch of different nonbinary or Trans folks who do have beards but are still very feme. You know, like ah the. 01:26:18.52 Jala-chan That I don't see you know like that doesn't necessarily code anything. But of course everybody's ah societal programming is different. So. 01:26:26.96 Briar And I love to the way it works for some bearded individuals is sometimes they'll like use up their beard and feminize it with like um, you know jewelries or other cultural signifiers or things that are. More found in that like the whole glitter beard thing um and like um like I think it's the act of going out and doing the the pageantry of like adding a feminization step to the beard that makes it more feminine. 01:27:02.30 Briar And like that's something that doesn't work for me. Um, and like I have actually started shaving my chin and like started like coming to to grips with that and seeing how I like it and feeling more femme about that. Um, but it's just kind of like you said, ah it's. 01:27:21.71 Briar Ah, very individual process. You know. 01:27:23.50 Marcus Something I always thought was really interesting. Okay so like growing up growing up. You know, very binary household. You know is the late 70 s and early eighty s you know so everything was super binary even though we had examples like Grace Jones and Boy George 01:27:41.65 Marcus Ah, but but you know grew up a very ah very, you know, binary household gender-wise but something that I always thought was interesting. So my dad was really big into bodybuiling at the time we had the gym in the basement and he had like muscle fitness magazine everywhere and it was just. He started buying them just at the time that the mrs the Ms Olympia contest started to get really popular and a few few things happened at the same time. So I got really into like Spider-man at the same time that my dad was buying all these muscle magazines and so. 01:28:18.31 Marcus All the dudes in these magazines are like you know, really huge hulking kind of guys that I didn't find very interesting at all and all the women looked like Spider-man and I was just kind of like oh hey, that's pretty cool right? And ah yes I don't know maybe my ah deal gender is Spider-man but um, but but but like. 01:28:37.73 Marcus Was something that really appealed to me growing up because I didn't want to like one I didn't you know I didn't really relate to these gigantic people. My dad is a thicker dude but like he and I have never matched up physically you know despite our genetics. Um, so like I always. 01:28:57.21 Marcus Never really related to wanting to be really big but I related to wanting to be like muscular and flexible and fast and agile and Spiderman you know. And yeah, but the only physical representation I saw of that was in woman bodybuilders. 01:29:14.99 Marcus And so a lot of you know people talk about their fitspiration or whatever like most of my fitspiration from a very early age was female bodybuilders you know Corey Iverson Bev Francis Lena Dunham like although and not Lena Dunham Lawyer is her name li I forgot her name ah shoot. Forgot her name but she was like a None time Miss Olympia she was super cool with the none black Miss Olympia and she kept winning for like years. Um I will find her name but um, but yeah, like ah those people were the ones that really engaged my that really? Ah I felt I could relate to the most. 01:29:52.14 Marcus Um, and yeah, all the really huge guys I was like no you know? Ah so when I did start training and things like that I would try to find examples of what I was looking for and it was all women and more recently like you know, nonbinary folks and like Circus performers whole other story there. But um. 01:30:11.84 Marcus But yeah, so most of my inspiration that came to fitness were women. So I think that fed into what what I eventually you know became my gender realization. Also so I think that's interesting too. Thanks Dad yeah. 01:30:22.63 Jala-chan Yeah, and it's funny that you mentioned that because when I was growing up my dad would watch all the Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and things like that and so and I would watch like the wrestling and the American Gladiators and this eles and they did have the women on that too. But like. 01:30:41.70 Jala-chan I ah I only was really paying attention to all the dudes and like even today on my wall if you've seen photos of my office slash gym. There are like photos of workout dudes on my wall not workout women. They're not on my wall. The workout dudes are on my wall. 01:30:59.16 Jala-chan And those have been the ones that I've always like looked up to and like my None superhero that I liked was Superman so and I didn't like Supergirl I didn't like her I like Superman and I liked you know the the stronger dudes and that was who I gravitated towards and. 01:31:17.14 Jala-chan When I was growing up. Also another thing that I had a big problem with was I was always always always looking for a female role model type person but every single character and every single person that would come across. It was like in everything during the time I was growing up was like unless it was zena. 01:31:36.10 Jala-chan Unless it was Xena every other female character that was like maybe strong and like you know a tomboy or whatever you know or just like an independent woman would end up failing in some way and have to be saved by a dude or deferred to a dude or something like at some point every single one of them. 01:31:56.10 Jala-chan Had to be saved by some guy and it made me infinitely angry and I was just like I can't find a female that I like like I can't find one like I don't have one only Nina like that's it and so I mean like yes, there's um you know um Sarah Connor 01:32:14.20 Jala-chan But she's also super paranoid and like not great. You know like she's not great. So I mean you know it was always just either the female character was like Sarah Connor where she's not really, um, female the way that she's coded. You know. 01:32:33.64 Jala-chan Like she is so she is a woman but she's not acting in any kind of feminine capacity. You know, not even as a parent like she fails because she's not you know, womanly enough motherly enough with her kid and she's just whatever all this other stuff like there's There's a lot of stuff going on there. 01:32:51.96 Jala-chan And so like either they weren't they were 100% not acting female at all or they ended up just having to defer to a guy and that just caused me so much strife because I was like no I want to be Superman I want to be the one saving the day and there's no female characters doing this. 01:33:10.27 Marcus Yeah up Xena yeah, it's funny. You mentioned Xena because I identified really strongly with Gabrielle especially after she cut her hair. She my favorite character. 01:33:18.78 Jala-chan Ah, meanwhile I was like I was one hundred percent Xena all the way I was like oh no Xena absolutely Superman absolutely I want to be Superman so and I talked about that on um when I was talking about the 2022 Robert Pattinson Batman movie. 01:33:37.83 Jala-chan At the end of that I was talking about my experiences with Superman and I was like I didn't like Wonder Woman I didn't want to be Wonder Woman Wonder Woman was crappy compared to you know at least at that time compared to Batman or Superman you know like all you had was the old Wonder Woman tv show and she didn't look like she was going to win in a fight please you know I was. 01:33:55.23 Marcus Um, right? you wanted to throw cars. Yeah. 01:33:57.78 Jala-chan Ah, interested in that no I wanted to you know, see the the Superman you know so I I wanted I wanted to be so. Man and they didn't have Superman jammies for a girl and I didn't want a Supergirl I want Supergirl I want Superman I was so mad. So so like my growing up and my my that's ah, that's part of the reason why like I like the fact that media these days have. 01:34:22.15 Jala-chan Strong female characters and non-binary characters and trans characters like they have more representation because there was never anything for me to identify with nothing like me except Xena that was it so and they took so long for Xena to come around like I was a little for a long time before that came out. 01:34:32.85 Marcus Oh absolutely? Yeah, no, my really did yeah I remember my favorite cartoons growing up in the 80 s all starred women. Laser Tag Academy had a female protagonist ah Jem and the Holograms, She-Ra Princess of Power. You know all the all those eighty car eighty s cartoons all had women as main characters and those were the ones that I really liked I mean there were the standard giant robot shows and stuff too. But those are the one like. When when Jem and the Holograms came on I was glued to the Tv. Yeah so exactly. So it was a and and yeah laser tag academy had a female protagonist. So I loved watching that. Um. 01:35:07.43 Jala-chan Um, well Jem was very fashionable so and very very glam. 01:35:24.28 Marcus And yeah, like my I don't know if my parents paid attention or cared. They're like ah, whatever watching cartoon doings fine you know, but meanwhile I'm just like absorbing it. You know so. 01:35:27.22 Jala-chan Um, you know I Actually when I was little I was extremely angry that She-Ra had like a flying horse I was like what's with this girl in the horse crap I'm so mad. No horses, no freaking horses. No freaking pegasus I want a freaking thundercat looking you know like I want He-Man's mount. What is this crap I'm so mad I was mad about everything I'm like why is she got to wear a skirt This is stupid like I'm just. 01:35:59.50 Jala-chan Was so angry. So Jala as a small child I was just mad so Briar. How about you? What was your experience when you were little looking at stuff media. 01:36:09.46 Briar Um, so I really like ah I like so keep in mind I was young didn't have the conceptualization of like even gay being a possibility but I remember when Tenchi Muyo started airing and. 01:36:29.27 Briar That was just like you know you know for people who don't know what it is and this is an incredibly basic thing is it's like a harem show about just this nice beige curtains kind of boy like 10 years is just. 01:36:41.81 Marcus Um, right things like the most bland. 01:36:47.57 Briar So basic and all the women are super interested. It ah interesting and I had crushes on all of them. But I didn't realize like at the time like growing up and trying to watch that like I related to the women in a way that's like I could date a nice boy I I could date a cute. 01:37:07.12 Briar Just the nice guy created. It's like 1 of those things that it's like the seed was planted like twenty years ago and then I'm sitting there at 25 and someone says 10 she movie and I'm just like. 01:37:09.35 Marcus Yeah, absolute milk toast tension. 01:37:30.51 Jala-chan It's so funny because when I watched Tenchi I was like why do they all like him what I like him like I was guess what I was mad I was like why do they like this boring guy like yes, he's nice but god he's so boring like come on. 01:37:44.44 Marcus Oh my God Exactly no like it's funny because I watched Tenchi and Oh My Goddess at the same time. 01:37:46.59 Jala-chan Guys have all these cool powers. Why why are you bothering with this kid. You know you're from space. You have all these fears. Yeah. 01:37:50.95 Briar You're from space. 01:38:03.21 Marcus By 2 I mean you want to talk about very different but very similar in that you know milk toast milk toast main character dude has all these women fawning on him fawning after him for some reason. Um, at least in oh my god as they made it make sense eventually. But 1 of the things that I really I actually really liked Urd and oh my god is like she was like I was like yeah yeah, she's got it like she's she's super cool help that she is darkskinned. Also you know that helps but I was just like I was just like yeah yeah, brave more more Urd. Please you know. 01:38:23.64 Jala-chan Urd was my favorite too. 01:38:40.14 Briar I I started realizing too when I was young to most of the romances or implied romances I really enjoyed um I didn't realize it wasn't just I was attracted to 1 person 1 party or relating to Strictly 1 party. 01:38:59.46 Briar Really liked anime and cartoons where there was like mutual pining and there were some some sexuality confusing feelings about both characters like a big one I can think of is in G Gundom ah lieutenant ze. 01:39:09.66 Marcus Right? Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. Um, yeah, anytime things got like with the word ah kind of sexually ambiguous. 01:39:18.56 Briar I mean Lieutenant knowying and X Marquees and X Marques is this like slightly darkened skin blonde long haired but pretty boy gorgeous Man should should have known that men were an option the moment I saw him and knowing is this kind of like. 01:39:27.40 Marcus It got a lot. It became a lot more Fun. So Oh did we lose everybody. Um, oh no, alright. 01:39:37.95 Briar A little bit of a tomboyish military girl with like cut ah chopped up hair and like just growing up I look at they never actually are like I love you. But there there's this like pining you know and I was like oh this is. 01:39:57.55 Briar That that opened up the floodgates for me. It is just like desire and the show of it. You know? yeah. 01:40:04.90 Jala-chan Yeah, well I will say about Harem shows I was always mad that it was always a dude with a bunch of girls fighting over him and I was like that's bullshit where is the female with her own Harem excuse me, you know like I was mad about that. 01:40:21.72 Jala-chan So there's another reason I was screaming at my TV (no I really wasn't). Another thing too is I'm surprised you didn't mention Ranma! Ranma was a lot of people's gender awakening. 01:40:36.77 Briar So I actually came to that at like the best time is I missed Ranma completely growing up and I I came out to my wife and ah she was like hey we and we're going. And this was still like relatively new in our relationship and we were like watching stuff from each other's childhood and catching up on some stuff and um so Ranma comes out ah comes due like a couple months after I came out and it's just me pointing at the screen going that that. 01:41:15.25 Briar Like feeling like I missed so much by missing Ranma. 01:41:17.88 Jala-chan Oh yeah, well and the thing about Ranma is that Ranma himself as he continues to have the Jusenkyo curse and can go um between being male and female ends up over time. Getting used to it and then going actually being a girl is kind of awesome and I kind of enjoy these aspects of it and it's funny because Ranma is like the super toxic masculinity boy at the beginning and then like ends up embracing his femininity over time. 01:41:53.79 Jala-chan And you know of course there's all the other stuff where it's like he has his own harem No matter what gender he is whichever gender he is you know and um, that is just definitely its own. 01:42:09.42 Jala-chan Like thing you know, um, Ranma was a fun show to watch for that reason because it's kind of unseating. It's like putting forward that toxic masculinity and then slowly tearing it away through like fun and comedy. Actually. 01:42:28.83 Briar Ah, there's a degree of acceptance to and you start seeing the joy between the characters. Um, that griff why that resonated with me even as an adult like I have no nostalgia for it. 01:43:21.40 Marcus Ranma I really love because of my history in martial arts. Obviously so I did kung fu so I was like yes Ron Ma you know. 01:43:39.38 Marcus Her does kung fu but then also um when the character Ukyo was introduced. Yeah I got I was I really liked Ukyo because Ukyo first presented as a dude and then was like revealed oh wait. No, that's a girl and she's in love with Ranma and but bla blah blah bla right? You know I was like okay, cool like that's. 01:43:33.51 Jala-chan Oh I Love Ukyo. 01:43:58.64 Marcus Like that's new and interesting. Also you know and so that you know, pinged off certain areas in my brain that I didn't realize until ten years later but you know so yeah, no, um, yeah, ronmo was ah many people's trans awakening. You know if only I could just pour water on my head and become something else. 01:44:08.58 Jala-chan Um, yeah, well and then yeah, a right? well and then the thing about it too is that there's this interesting wine that they ride with stuff like Ryoga's relationship with Ranma and how. 01:44:27.80 Jala-chan You know? Yeah, he's he's um, you know, always fighting with ronma and rivals for Akane or whatever. But then really Ryoga loves Ranma too and you know he absolutely loves Ranma too and and you know like he comes he will just flat out say it at different points too and Ranma is always like rejecting him. But. 01:44:38.77 Marcus Ah, you right? yeah. 01:44:47.21 Jala-chan You know he will flat out say the thing and it's a lot you know and then just some of the women like Shampoo for example, doesn't even care if if Ranma was in girl forms like whatever you know you're still the same person and I still love you. You know? so. 01:44:57.92 Marcus Um, my God Yeah, exactly exactly. 01:45:05.74 Jala-chan And so Ranma was you know quite a revolutionary kind of thing for a lot of different reasons for some folks. So oh boy yeah Kuno yeah, but yeah, so like um, you know of course we've kind of. 01:45:13.56 Marcus Yeah, yeah, and then there was Kuno but anyway that poor human yeah, but yeah. 01:45:25.60 Jala-chan Already touched on how all of us have grown up and that we had these binary households with this this kind of thing like um for example, the cultural interactions is also something that I'm interested in because my family is Cuban so they have the super Toxic Masculinity Latino. You know, kind of sense of masculine and yeah, super super specific. You know idea of feminine that I've never fit into that that actually caused quite a lot of my dysphoria about who I was because I didn't fit these expected Molds at All. And um, hence my my rage against everything growing up and like there's nobody like me I can't find anybody that's like me I can't find a character that's like why isn't there a character like me, you know and nowadays there are but so like ah. 01:46:17.99 Briar You settled for Vegeta he's He's the right size. He's got dark hair. 01:46:22.10 Jala-chan Yeah, right? Well honestly like if when it comes to Dragonball Vegeta is absolutely my favorite character So but um. 01:46:37.49 Marcus Um, well there you go? Yeah, ah. 01:46:38.00 Jala-chan But anyway, um so Marcus ah insofar as like the intersection of like your culture and all of that. How did that play into your experience of self. 01:46:52.35 Marcus Oh my gosh. Okay, so ah, yeah, growing up black in Upstate New York so like that was already interesting because you know we have all of like kind of hyper masculine black hip hop stereotypes. You know that I just. 01:47:12.30 Marcus Didn't jibe with it all you know, like no matter what I just didn't it. It didn't work for me like even though I enjoyed hip-hop music. You know I like certain aspects of like hip-hopp culture in terms of like dance and fashion and things like that I didn't I didn't ascribe it all well to like the like I said the hyper masculine type of. 01:47:31.39 Marcus Ah, that black stereotypical ideal. You know of masculinity. Especially once like Gangster Rap really became a thing I was like no I'm out you know, um I was more into you know I was more identifying with like you know. 01:47:47.28 Marcus Ah, some of the softer R and B singers. You know the people who could like really dance ah and you know in vogue was becoming a thing So Yes vogue you know? Um, but yeah, like I yeah like and here's the other thing like being gay was. So people something that black people don't want to admit to themselves way too often is that a lot of black culture is very homophobic and it's because black people grow black people have grown up trying to. 01:48:24.72 Marcus Be accepted by by white people basically black people grow up in a society where they're ostracized because they are black and they're trying to match white supremacist ideals in order to make themselves fit in and the only way to do that. Unfortunately the white supremacists are you know? Also the super religious conservatives. So like people. 01:48:44.42 Marcus Like people grow up being ah in a lot of ways socially progressive when it comes to race but they end up being socially conservative when it comes to literally everything else. So like yeah we want equality and everything like that. But the way they try to do It is to try and like. 01:49:01.95 Marcus You know, match this this socially super conservative like white dude and so I grew up in church you know and being taught that you know anything other than like you know straight cis-ness is wrong, Wrong wrong you know and when I figured out that you know. 01:49:20.74 Marcus That wasn't me. It was a lot of culture shock and I just had to like I just had to sit with it for a really long time. You know. 01:49:24.50 Jala-chan Yeah, like I would imagine that when you realized you didn't fit into this mold you were given you know like and yet you were trapped in a situation where you know that's like that's. What everybody is assuming of you like that. That's a hard situation to have to come to groups with. 01:49:46.89 Marcus Um, no absolutely they it helped in a way that I was already the weird one you know, um because I was like the I was the only person in my okay, not the only. Well at the time I was the only person in my family who was into comics and anime and drawing and music and you know music in terms of like learning to play instruments and learning how to dance in ways that wasn't like you know that wasn't hip hop and um. 01:50:19.27 Marcus Write and I was way more into like reading and writing and like creative writing and all kinds of stuff like that than anybody else in my family and partially that has to do with like some of where I was placed like I was able to test into a private school and things like that. But even if I hadn't. 01:50:38.50 Marcus I was I was already demonstrating all of those interests like as far back as like None and fourth grade I was already demonstrating a lot of like really nerdy and quote unquote weird interests right? So I was the person who was into like yeah like I said comics anime video games all that stuff before they became. 01:50:58.44 Marcus Popular quote unquote and so I was the one who had the stacks of Nintendo power magazines in my room you know, um, and like all the comic books and me trying to you know like you know, nobody in my family knew who Deadpool was in 1992 you know so. 01:51:18.15 Marcus Um, so yeah, like I was doing I was already the weird one and so I think that when I did finally come out. Um, a lot of people in my family weren't terribly surprised. They were just like oh okay, you know so um. 01:51:37.79 Marcus But um, but yeah, no, um, it was ah it was still challenging because a lot of my family could accept all of my other weird things. But when it came to like and they could even like here's something I've here's something I've. 01:51:57.75 Marcus In talking with my parents recently I've realized my parents would have much would have been. It would have been way easier for my parents to accept me being gay than being nonbinary and. 01:52:02.69 Jala-chan Um, and you you know and I think that's really because like it's it's like ah people in society generally specifically um when it comes to a more conservative or you know. 01:52:22.80 Jala-chan Whatever kind of mindset tend to have like a kind of binary way of looking at things and so something that fits that's a None thing that's not 1 of the 2 things that they already have categories for like they can't they don't know what to do with that. It's like so far outside of their box that they don't know what to do with that and. 01:52:41.27 Jala-chan That was really like how I mentioned earlier with what I None met Briar I had a tar time understanding it not that I didn't accept or you know, ah respect that as you know Briar's identity but like I could not fathom it. 01:53:00.11 Jala-chan Because my own sense of identity is so in you know between these 2 categories that it's hard for me to think of it and now nowadays obviously that has changed over time very much you know, but you know it's still a thing where to this day my sin and maybe forever I'm not sure. 01:53:19.97 Jala-chan Um, my sense of my own gender is is a category thing. You know so so it's and it's it's weird because you would think it would be easier for people to say. Okay, so you're not those things you're this thing you know like oh great. 01:53:39.47 Jala-chan You know or you're all of these things you know like noninary you could be all of them at the same time you know none of them. Whatever you want? Whatever whatever it is that you say I don't know but it's. 01:53:40.27 Marcus Um, right? Yeah exactly Yeah, another thing another thing that comes with that too. Um. 01:53:57.49 Marcus Being black. There are a lot of expectations placed on you that that I think they they definitely don't go unspoken but but some like some of them do like okay me like I've always talked the way that I talk right? which is already not. 01:54:15.39 Marcus Stereotypical for a black person and it's definitely not for a a sign male-of birth black person in the United States um and so people would hear me speak and automatically assume that I was going to grow up and be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer right. 01:54:33.45 Marcus And I was like no I'm going to draw stuff you know or whatever you know and for a little while I wanted to do some kind of like engineering because I wanted to make giant robots. But then I realized how unrealistic that was, but um, but yeah, like the. 01:54:52.00 Marcus Like there was always this assumption that I was going to that I was going to grow up and I was going to you know lead the black community into the future in some kind of way you know and like people would always and especially with my name being marcus they would always associate with me with Marcus Garvey you know 01:55:11.93 Marcus And I was like I am not that person you know and then also then they would also make the ah the the Marcus Welby jokes because like they had to find you know some kind of pop culture thing to relate my name to so they always assumed that I'd be either Marcus Garvey r be Marcus Welby M D right and I was like. 01:55:31.54 Marcus no no I don't really want to do either of those things. Um, especially because I didn't know who Marcus Garvey was at the time then when I learned I was like oh absolutely not you know so this was like that's not what I see for myself and then yeah there are all these expectations of yeah being you know. 01:55:50.96 Marcus Masculine and go into engineering or some kind of like you know stereotypical like really moneymaking profession. You know, um and so that was that was always a thing or that you know or that I'd be some kind of like you know leader. Um, and this is like I don't want that. 01:56:10.61 Marcus You know and I never really got a chance to express that I didn't want those things in a way that was supported until I actually moved away from everybody like. 01:56:22.38 Marcus And then plus I played sports all through middle school and high school so people thought oh you're going to go into the and Nba because I played basketball. It's like well you know I don't really want to play basketball. You know this is fun for right now, but it's not what I want to do like I and this should have been one of the none clues that I was you know, not you know? ah. That I was not so you know I did not have such a straightforward gender identity is that ah one of the things that I would do to warm up for basketball practice is I would practice volleyball with the girls team and ah and I got along. 01:56:59.59 Marcus Better with all of the girls in my class and in in high school than I did with any of the guys who I was kind of forced to associate with um so I think yeah and I don't know. 01:57:12.81 Marcus How much of that was just rebellion and how much of that was my gender trying to express itself but not having the ability of the words you know so. 01:57:14.30 Jala-chan Yeah, and for for when I was growing up I was I graduated high school number 4 in my class and the people who were above Me. We're in the academic decalon team and got an extra grade point and I had been scouted for actec and I refused to do it because the guy who was running. It was also nicknamed Satan Because. He was really really hardcore and like you know, ah he led the team to be like national champions and things but I did not want to learn I like I like learning but I like to learn on my own pace I don't want somebody screaming at me like I'm not going to deal with that level of disrespect. You don't want me to you know deal with that because. 01:58:00.52 Jala-chan I'm not going to sit there and take it. Um, so anyway, ah that was my situation but with the way that I talked to people I didn't speak like that whatsoever when I wasn't presenting something so I was goofy and silly and a bunch of other things in people. 01:58:20.19 Jala-chan Ah, when I got when everybody got their little piece of paper that told them where they were placing in the class. Ah and I looked at it and everybody else in my class was you know talking about theirs and I was like yeah I'm number 4 and then they're just like 1 1 person turned around and said what I thought you were dumb. 01:58:38.83 Jala-chan Because I was so goofy and I was so whatever you know that I just did not fit the mold of what they were thinking a number 4 in the class would be because of course everybody else. 01:58:51.61 Jala-chan Who is above me in the class like I'm going to be a doctor I'm going to be a lawyer I'm going to be a veterinarian and then I'm like artist. What's ah you know so you know and um, yeah, and then also since my dad is an immigrant. Um, you know he came from Cuba during. 01:59:09.16 Jala-chan When Castro came to power during Operation Pedro Pan. Um, when he came here all of his family. Of course they're like they became doctors and lawyers and all this other crap you know and so he was expecting me to go into business and I didn't want to go into business. That's what I wanted to do. 01:59:26.69 Jala-chan You know business frankly makes me sick I don't want to um and so like he had the hardest time trying to accept what I wanted to do and let alone you know, um other forms of self-expression like I cannot talk to him about. 01:59:42.79 Jala-chan Anything about who I am as a human being he refuses just flat refuses to accept any of that my mom tries to be accepting and whatever but she's definitely very governed by what my dad has to say so you know like um 1 thing I wanted to talk about was your relationship with your family and how that's changed over time and like for my family a lot of my family just flat refuses to accept who I am and they just don't recognize anything you know like if I were using pronouns other than she her. They would not use those pronouns whatsoever. 02:00:20.89 Jala-chan They would just refuse flatly. My mom would use them. My sister would use them and some certain other people would but not my dad not my aunt. You know most of my aunts and everything most of them wouldn't use those so they wouldn't respect that kind of a thing. Um. 02:00:38.18 Jala-chan And so so that's the situation I find myself in So what is your situation when it comes to your family like how has that changed over time. 02:00:51.44 Marcus It's interesting. So when like when I first came out to my parents and then to everybody else because I posted on online because I had a fight with my sister I was um. 02:01:05.66 Marcus I'll give you the brief story on the fight me and my sister ended up having an argument online and I kind of aggressively came out to my sister so that she would just kind of like shut up about different things about me. Um, and then I was like her boy well came out to her I bet I better tell my parents because she's not going to shut up right? so. 02:01:24.85 Marcus The next like a couple days later I told my parents um and they were like okay well what does that mean I don't understand like how you know and my mom at None was like super good about it. She's like wait. How do you spell that I need to Google that I don't know what you're talking about you know and so that was actually really refreshing because she was going to look it up. 02:01:44.62 Marcus You know? um, but then like the pronoun thing throws my parents for an absolute loop like they cannot they don't They don't understand that at all like my guess the long and short of how my family is with me is that they my mother my parents are supportive. 02:02:04.40 Marcus But they do not understand and um and when it comes to pronouns. They're just like ah you know they just they stumble over it all the time and like I don't mind when it comes to my parents if they use he him with me like it's It's okay. 02:02:24.80 Marcus I Get like my parents are in their seventy s you know I'm just like you know what? it's all right? like you could try harder. But I've lived through the all of this long I'll I'll survive you know, um and like me and my sister barely talk at all. So I don't. 02:02:43.40 Marcus And don't bother um and then like with other members of my family most of my relationship with them is via Facebook so um, a lot of them are actually very accepting which is super cool and my my closest cousin. Um, who I grew up with like we're only 2 years apart and we practically were raised together because for a lot of times I was over at his house like after school and during summer and things like that because he lived with our grandmother and so she was taking care of us he and I are actually like still super tight. 02:03:16.75 Marcus So Anytime anything about gender sexuality comes up with Him. He's like no, we're good. Cool. You got it, They them Cool. You know so he's Likes. He's really great. Um, and then yeah, so that's how it is in my family like with my friends. Um, my friends circles have changed. So much over the course of life like there's nobody who there are very few people in my adult life who know anybody who I've met who I'd known from before like there's nobody I knew and there's nobody I knew in high school who knows anybody else who I know as an adult you know, um, and so there is some diversion there. 02:03:55.35 Marcus Um, and so yeah, like most ah most of my friends you know I was already out by the time I'd met them so they're like all right cool. You know they're they're on a lot of them are queer too. So it's fun. You know so they're like there's there's a lot of they theming you know in that group of folks. Um. 02:04:16.20 Marcus Acquaintances whatever their acquaintances they don't matter as much I guess Ah so like you know I'll introduce myself and I'll give my pronouns when you know when I feel it's appropriate like when I feel safe enough to like grow that in there and usually it's fine. Sometimes it's like ah and it. 02:04:33.57 Marcus You know we just kind of go with the flow of things but usually it's fine. So I wouldn't say that like I wouldn't say that I deal with a lot of like I don't face a lot of like rejection or anything like that from most people like there's or any rejection I face is like really passive. 02:04:53.80 Marcus You know it's never outright. It's just kind of like oh right, the pronouns sure whatever you know and they just don't do it and I'm like underneath it. 02:04:57.99 Briar Yeah I was going to say um like I actually see more active opposition to my more binary Trans friends a lot of the time is like the actual aggressive nes goes to them and the. 02:05:11.70 Marcus Right? yeah. 02:05:17.10 Briar Dismissiveness comes more my way. 02:05:20.75 Jala-chan That's that's such crap. It's such crap I'm so mad I'm mad again I'm mad on your behalf I'm it's so I Yeah, yeah yeah I mean like it. 02:05:20.84 Marcus Um, that is accurate. Yes, it's terrible. But that is yeah. 02:05:22.20 Briar Um, yeah, yeah, it's um, it's like a different kind of hurt like you can see you can see it. But it's a different type you know. 02:05:38.11 Jala-chan It doesn't invalidate the solid rejection that happens for the binary Trans folkslks of course but God it's another level of just crap. Just why do people have to find new ways to be bad. Okay, so. 02:05:55.19 Jala-chan Well, but so but so Briar um, how about you like when it comes to your family. Um, how have things changed or have they changed. 02:06:03.88 Briar So there's a little bit of complication. You know I just had to bring the drama recently? Um, so my family's pretty good about things. They're supportive even when they don't understand. Um. 02:06:23.37 Briar But right now the person who I went back to that company for as a favor is my own father and I am not out at work I work about 2 hallways down from the people who harassed me out of my previous job. 02:06:42.65 Briar So I have very little intention of coming out at work and so the drama is he's trying his best um you know like he has to use my dead name at work and things like that and um, every once in a while. It's cute because he'll. 02:07:01.81 Briar He'll catch himself on something and then he'll say like a pointedly nongendered thing. He'll be like this is my kid and I'm like there we go like he gives me like a ah like just enough of a micro look that I'm like. 02:07:18.38 Briar No one else saw that but I saw that okay tonight but it like we had to have like a little bit of a talk about it too is is because like I'm kind of half as out in public in the way that like. 02:07:23.40 Marcus Yeah, it's nice when that happens. So. 02:07:36.12 Briar No, one's asking my life story. So I introduced myself as Briar if anyone's curious I'll tell them I use they them. You know? um I try to hide it through my looks less when I'm out in public. So like when I take him to a movie and stuff. 02:07:55.18 Briar Like he's got a. He's got to do the minor code switching from being a good and protective ally to being like an actual supportive parent and so like I put a little bit of difficulty on him because like there there are reasons not to be out at work. You know what I mean. 02:08:15.20 Briar Um, but he's pretty good about it apart from that and like my parents have been relatively supportive because like turns out I'm not. 02:08:29.32 Briar But None one of their kids who had something that you you know like they're really good at like not outing us amongst each other so like I actually like recognize that as like that's something incredibly dope. Um they they do live with my grandma. 02:08:40.99 Marcus That's good. 02:08:41.16 Jala-chan That's good. 02:08:45.34 Marcus Yes, that is very good. 02:08:48.54 Briar And ah like I'm really open with them about like the gender feels and stuff like that outside of like I said work and ah I don't know if it's Facebook or what but. 02:09:04.57 Briar I don't get like any sense of malice from my grandma but every once in a while I just have to be like that's not my name. Um, you know I like a lot of party games like older party games and stuff are gendered. 02:09:22.59 Briar And we were playing on this last Christmas and I it was like all boys pass their present to the left and I'm like I ain't doing it I like until you put me on it I I am I am the block. 02:09:42.60 Briar Like my my my cousin's cool and knows it to like every everyone in the room I'm like they all know I'm non biary and so what it was like all girls passed their present to the left all boys passed their present to the right I was just kind of like well. 02:10:00.94 Briar I am not passing direction but like and there's moments where it can be. You know fun goofy stuff like that. But like I've got a pretty supportive family I think my sister and I have gotten closer and. 02:10:19.26 Briar Not because of like nonbinaryiness or queerness or anything like that. But with my sister like I meet her halfway on so many more things and I think some of that comes from when I was a kid just the denial of femininity in any form. 02:10:38.55 Briar Like have you all heard of Britney Spears you know occasional bopps out of Britney Spears and just like as a kid I couldn't even c seed like neutrality to her you know and now I like get to share music with her and stuff like that or I'll ask like. 02:10:58.18 Briar Fashion tips and things like I think the relate like getting rid of the denial of any form of femininity has just like so strengthened my relationship with this really cool person in my life like ah like. 02:11:17.80 Briar Ah, my sister is really really cool. Um, and like is it's also helped me understand like a lot of things that like growing up. Ah you know the differences and stuff is because like my sister's black and um. You know we were like this Harry Potter household and like being into Harry Potter thinking I'm a Cis white boy like I had plenty there to grab onto and so my sister kind of just like tolerating it was something I couldn't quite. 02:11:56.24 Briar Get and like when I started realizing that like I ate well when I was in Bully mode versus how much how different the actual content of that series goes down. 02:12:14.74 Briar If you're anyone else and like so it's just like one of I can see like as a black girl where she was not served a lot of the time and I'm not saying there aren't black Harry Potter fans just like I see. 02:12:33.34 Briar Why some of the some people aren't. 02:12:35.70 Jala-chan Yeah, and Harry Potter is a fandom that completely missed me. Um I feel like like it's not like I was too old but like the covers of those books were way too young for me to ever want to open them like I was like I would be completely embarrassed. Walking around with this and so like I refuse to read them between the fact that there's just you know like a plain old white dude on the cover and then also it looks like it's for like super tiny kiddos and I'm just like no thanks and like it. It. 02:13:13.63 Jala-chan There's a lot of stuff about it that sounds like it's so a fandom that I should have been into and I just did not I Absolutely just did not engage and then when I finally did watch part of one movie I'm like okay and I had no feels about it I'm like all right I mean. 02:13:30.37 Jala-chan Not to say you know that I don't know lots of people who really love Harry Potter but like it never struck me the same way and when I was growing up. You know I lived in a very multiracial area and I listened to hip hop and you know like it was a very different upbringing than a lot of people. 02:13:50.33 Jala-chan That I know who really really are into Harry Potter and it's like ah I don't know like I just it doesn't hit me the same way you know, um so and and that was actually I've talked about it before but when it comes to when I show up on duck feed tvs the level that one is. 02:14:09.59 Jala-chan Ah, video game podcast that all of the other people who are on the show are cis white cis white males from the Midwest and so I was you know like I there were there was a period before we all. 02:14:28.17 Jala-chan Got to know each other well enough where they would talk to me and assumed that I had some idea of what they were talking about and I'm like I have no frame of reference for what you're saying to me right now I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah you know it was on this show like I didn't watch that show. Those are all blonde white people I didn't watch that I was watching you know like different strokes I don't know what you're talking about you know, like whatever. 02:14:51.63 Briar I had an interesting moment with one of the german gentlemen I work with is ah we had fourth of July off and I said make sure you have a happy fourth to him and he goes happy. Fourth. 02:15:08.78 Briar And like you could see the gears turning in his head he goes oh Ed he's like independence day I was like and we had this realization that like most of our colloquial interactions come from just like especially like. 02:15:26.11 Briar The American ones just assume everyone is coming from the American standpoint and so we were just laughing because I was like yeah just every every bit of slang I use to you assumes like so much cultural baggage. 02:15:40.79 Jala-chan Yeah, yeah for sure and that's that's like a whole nother thing um a conversation for yet another episode but I do feel that we have been going. We have been going and it is a good time to stop going in this direction for now even though the topic is one that can just be discussed infinitely. So ah, we will close it up now. Any final thoughts Briar about. 02:16:14.41 Jala-chan General intersectionality your experience of it etc just wrap up thoughts. 02:16:19.67 Briar Um I I Just like I think it's something. Yeah, you know there's an essayist I Really enjoy. Um and she talks about how like goodness is not. An act that makes you good and Badness is not an act that makes you bad. It's a practice and I think that ah you can extrapolate that idea to a lot of important things like intersectionality is it's very iterative. 02:16:54.86 Briar And um, it's something that we should always like be conscious of um and like I said I hope I demonstrated that like um I like I know where I'm at like as a white person. Where I'm able to like chameleon in and blend in and stuff but also like the challenges that come with being anything nonstandard. Um, like they all rear their head different ways. Economically socially culturally things like that like um. 02:17:30.74 Briar My my my friend growing up has had like um that that transition as a teenager with like how his body was perceived as a black man. 02:17:44.99 Briar There are just like a couple of conversations where I'm like dude we're 14 how am I supposed to answer this stuff. Um like like just as the the way that like he grew up in. Ah. 02:18:02.56 Briar Upstate New York as a black man and just like it made me very conscious of like I am like even if I were the standard experience like there's things I have to get to be good to the people I love. Ah. That like I need to understand comes from. We don't fit a mold. We're not just off the rack the same um and that like why equity is important and it's like really interesting like Mark ah Marcus just like some of the stuff you've talked about like. 02:18:40.65 Briar Has me in the fields and I can't wait till my friend gets back from overseas next month because I'm like I need I need to take him out to dinner see him again I'm like we with this boy just he's such a sweet man now and just the way. 02:19:00.56 Briar Like the struggle of blackness in a primarily white community and just like I'm so fortunate to have him in my life and ah just hearing that like it's similar to your experiences and things like that like it's not 1 to one but I'm just like. 02:19:19.20 Briar Just such such a yeah you know if if people weren't good to him I couldve lost him you know at at like that That's intersectionality is important even imperfect intersectionality you know and so. 02:19:36.59 Briar I Hope to practice it I hope to get better at it. You know, even what that that's a I'm trying to like organize my thoughts But what like I said it's It's a continual effort and all humans are iterate. We're an iterative species where. 02:19:55.39 Briar Different every day and so I think Intersectionality is not just like a conceptual thing I think it's a it's a practice. It's a thing I hope to live moving forward. 02:20:03.30 Jala-chan Um, yeah, oh yeah, and really, ah, you know it's like my discussion of my place in the world as you know a white passing Latina Whatever like my white passing latinaness is not going to be the same iteration as someone else's white passing Latina Ish you know you know it's everybody's their own version of each of these different things. Even if you have a lot of common. Ah, circles in that bend Diagram Together. You know your experiences are going to automatically by default be different and for me intersectionality. 02:20:52.29 Jala-chan Like the more that you come into contact with people of different walks of life. The better and richer your life becomes from learning from these different people seeing from these different viewpoints. Even if you don't understand for None or another reason because your diagram is a different diagram. You. Get the benefits of of learning about a different perspective a different experience and that is what makes our tapestry of society stronger is that diversity. So for me like intersectionality is is. Important and I try to learn more about it and nobody's nobody's approach to intersectionality is perfect because we always have blind spots by default every single person has blind spots. So it's just trying to be aware of different perspectives different. Situations different advantages and disadvantages that people have and what they are bringing with them as they move through the world you know and how that's different from what you bring with you. That's very important to know and to acknowledge and like I said earlier when you. See someone as they truly are whatever their Venn diagram looks like that is a beautiful thing and especially if they can see you too and you are looking at each other honestly and openly and you know with acceptance that's. None of the most beautiful things you can ever have in a relationship Marcus final thoughts. 02:22:31.22 Marcus Um, yeah, final thoughts. Um I think that I would say that it would benefit everyone if it would benefit everyone if everyone ah thought about. Kind of along the lines of what you were just saying but like I feel I feel it would benefit the entire world if everyone was more conscious of the intersections of their identities you know and was. 02:23:22.80 Marcus Equally as conscious of their own as everyone else's like 1 of the things I think people fail to understand is that they operate and is that they themselves individually operate at an intersection of a lot of different identities and they don't quite realize how that affects them because they think especially yeah. 02:23:41.27 Marcus White Cis people have a tendency to think that they are the blueprint you know, but they don't realize that they don't realize just how unique their own experience is and because they don't realize that they don't take into account How unique someone else's experience is and I think that that. 02:24:01.80 Marcus Removes a lot of their ability to feel empathy for people and that in turn you know, ah that leads to a lot of the oppression that we see and I think that if people if people everywhere were able to. 02:24:20.70 Marcus Like recognize within themselves that they have multiple identities that cross over and that influence how they view the world and then also understand that that is the same of anybody else who they're going to come in contact with and have. Sympathy and empathy for their experience. I think that that will just lead to people in general being better to other people and I feel that if people especially if people in power actually did that that would just lead to overall better outcomes for the people who they have power over. 02:24:40.95 Jala-chan Um, yeah, because um, yeah. Yeah, yeah for sure and there is definitely when it comes to interacting in Society. There is definitely a flattening like when people look out of their own eyes towards the rest of the world. There is a flattening of what they are seeing. 02:25:10.60 Jala-chan You know they are simplifying the shapes that they're seeing and that's where a lot of the trouble comes in because that's where a lot of the assumptions come and come into play and the lack of empathy because that's not a human being that is ah a shape. You know that kind of a thing. So. 02:25:29.98 Jala-chan Definitely something to keep in mind so when it comes to listeners wanting to reach out and talk to you folks are there places on the internet where people may reach you Briar. 02:25:45.70 Briar So I am an internet cryptid. It's a miracle I even got to meet Jala 02:25:51.80 Jala-chan I Don't even remember how I met you. 02:25:53.59 Briar I I was like to I I hopped on the duck feed slack at one point was like does anyone play Guild Wars. 02:25:59.21 Jala-chan Oh and you just ping me. Oh okay, oh yeah, yeah. 02:26:05.60 Briar So was like go talk to Jalla um, but yeah, so ah, if you want my personal Twitter account which is probably the best way to get in to contact with me if you want to get to know me or anything like that. 02:26:22.81 Briar That's at 13 briars. Um, and the display name's Briar Thompson um if you are interested in anything I do professionally critically artistically um, right now I am trying to publish a book and so if you want to read a urban fantasy about pro union action and ah queer fairy romances and the new kid in town ah through the eyes of a nonbinary individual. Ah. Follow at briars grove on Twitter and that is the none place that will tell you where the book is being published and when it is being published um sort of you just follow that passively. Ah, you'll you. That's the place you'll get to know it. 02:27:14.26 Jala-chan Awesome, awesome and Marcus? 02:27:18.80 Marcus Um, cool. Ah, okay, so um, probably the best place to find me is if you want to actually communicate with me. Ah, best place to find me is going to be on Instagram at Marcus Rasaan so it's um, at marcusunderscoreras a a n ah that is my username there that has links to like so that has my regular profile has links to my photography profile has links to my Patreon which is. Http://patreon.com/randomrain that's where a lot of my artwork is currently um and then so that is my username I try to use that username everywhere. So on Twitter I'm also at Marcus Underscore rasan that has links to a couple other things. Also um, those are the None easiest places to find me. Um, and then if you're really want to talk to me sort of some other way. Ah, go there none and I'll direct you. So yeah, yeah. 02:28:11.75 Jala-chan Yeah, sounds good and of course I am Jala-chan in any place I am to be found! So that's all for now folks until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]