00:00.15 Jala and Dave Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes (she/her) and today I am joined by Dave (he/him) and Raúl (he/him). Hi Dave how you doing today? I'm doing pretty good. It's glad to be back on the show. Yeah, it is glad isn't it! Raúl how are you doing? 00:22.92 Raúl So I'm doing great. It's Christmas eve and I've got the chance to make good memories today. 00:31.44 Jala and Dave Yay! Although this episode is going to be like published in mid-January when Dave and I are going to be going to get married so it's going to be like right after we got married that this comes out. So yeah. 00:42.39 Raúl Um, it's for the for the listener. It's 3 Kings Day and I have the chance to make good memories today. 00:44.43 Jala and Dave Ah, some good memories will be happening hopefully between now and then. 00:52.45 Jala and Dave There you go. So all right! Today we are talking about the Kollywood movie Vikram Vedha which is a neo noir film from South India and this movie is 1 of Dave and my top movies that we've ever seen and Dave has like the pedigree of having watched so many movies he can't remember all the movies that he's watched so yeah out of literally thousands of movies. This is like I were immediately rewatching it. It. It'll go on the annual time to watch bikramveda. Yeah yeah, so that's like we we came across this because we noticed that friti groshan had posted. Ah, he's a bollywood actor. He had posted a video for Vikramved had 2022 like a new remake of the movie that they were that he was doing and. So we were curious and we looked into it and we said oh actually this is the original movie huh that looks pretty good. Let's see what that's like and then we watched it and absolutely fell in love with the original 2017 movie and we're just like yeah I mean we did watch the Bollywood version as well. 02:20.25 Jala and Dave And we will get into it in more detail but it is very different in its approach. It still follows the same storyline but its approach is very different. It's kind of like having a film that's kind of more I don't know art art ah festival indie type stuff. That's doing you know 1 thing versus having like the big budget Marvel film and that's kind of the difference in feel between the 2 of them. So in either case, this movie was directed by husband and wife duo Pushcar and Guyatri and. They have done a few other films. This is their most notable one they most recently are working on a Tv show which is also like a neo noir or like a cop a cop thriller kind of movie or not movie. Um Tv series that is available on. Amazon called Suze Hall the vortex Dave and I have watched the first episode of that and it is really good. Do you have any comments about it Dave. Ah yeah, it's it's great. It has a very different vibe from like Vikrubera ah is in as much or I guess from my main. Bollywood films. It's sedate. It's slow moving. But it's focusing on like a single event in a small town and that that hits way differently because it's a very like intrinsic community versus like a big city feel. 03:54.97 Jala and Dave Yeah that's a good way to put it so that's what they're currently working on that is a good thing to watch as well and I did I already mention it's on Amazon ah you can watch it on Amazon for free. You can also watch Vikram vedha this movie for free on Amazon if you have prime. So. It's also available on Youtube and um hulu and Google and Apple various places you can get the original Twenty Seventeen Vikram bed home so this movie is great I've already said that. But. What I would recommend is for everybody who is listening to this most of you are not people who have already seen this movie. So I want you to stop listening to this and go watch that movie and then come back at least wait past like the little animated intro that tells you about the folks story that. This movie was based on in get into like 5 minutes of just the actual movie itself and then see if it's for you because it's well worth your time in my opinion Roel what do you think? just in general terms about this movie. 05:07.27 Raúl And I had never heard of this movie before you had ah mentioned it. Um I I used to really love watching bollywood movies back in like the early to mid two thousand s but this was actually my first hollywood movie. Um, but I enjoyed the movie I thought it it's for a movie that's two and a half hours long to encourage repeat views is very difficult but I've I mean I've I've watched it twice. 1 of them was in preparation for the show but had I not had to prepare for the show I probably would have watched it again. 05:49.10 Jala and Dave Yeah, so the narrative just to let folks know about that just like the general idea of what this story is. We're going to get into spoilers later. There will be a spoiler wall but ah, the narrative overall of the film is that Vikram who is a hotshot cop. Has devoted himself to taking down a gangster and a smuggler named vedha along with a small contingent of fellow police officers and veda turns himself in and attempts to change Vikram's life by telling him his own story and so it's set up as a framing narrative. And it all starts with vedta and Vikram sitting across the table from each other in an interrogation room and he says let me tell you my story sir and then he goes back and begins his tale of how he got into. Being a smuggler and a gangster and you know different important points in his life where there was like a pivotal moment where he had a choice and he stops at those times to ask Vikram now what is just you know what is justice what is the just thing to do in this case. Do you do this or do you do this and he asks Vikram for his opinion and so you know that's how he kind of draws him in and kind of has Vikram start to learn his viewpoint and so it's really an interesting movie. The lighting. 07:20.25 Jala and Dave The framing of all the shots. The cinematography is just stellar. The score is amazing. So the music it all kind of hinges on this one specific refrain this one melody line that the first time you hear it. It's in minor key and it's just great. They repeat it vocally in the main song. They also repeat it in different places in the different tracks throughout the film. Yeah, it's ah it's a theme that when it pops up in reprise, it's it's queuing the viewer in on aspects of the film. It's a sting similar to what you get in jaws and it's very effective and they change. Ah, yeah, when they when they're changing the instrumentation up between like the instruments and then the vocals it. It'll evoke a like a different ah like audio response just because it's it's framed a little differently as it goes and that it makes it really effective. Um, little little piece of music. Yeah, so when you have that first minor key you know what? what is it piano that you first hear it Denda dead dead dead den done dead den den du and du den like that. 08:52.57 Jala and Dave Sets you on edge because it is minor key and it is higher pitched and you know it makes you kind of like sit up in your seat a little bit more when they play it in the main song and it's there and it's vocal. You have guys going. Na and and and and and not and like kind of a rougher voice and that's usually played during scenes when there is just like a firefight going On. There is a you know, big important antagonistic scene happening. So. When the ways that they use it change throughout the entire movie but that same refrain keeps on popping up and it makes the entire soundtrack Very very cohesive. 09:34.65 Raúl And it gets very epic at points just that one little phrase. 09:41.30 Jala and Dave absolutely absolutely so this story is based on the indian tale of ah baital pacii or Vikram Vedhal ah which is the 25 tales of Vedhal and I will link in the show notes a free ebook. That has just like an old translation of it. So um, we will talk a little bit more in detail about that tale here in a little bit but I do want to talk a little bit more about like the visuals and stuff before we dig into the narrative and the theming and that's when we'll talk about that story. So. The color palette of this movie I said I said that it's Neo Noir the color palette is very muted. It's largely blacks and grays and kind of duller colors with the exception of the shirts of some of the main characters like when you first see Vikram he has a white shirt on. As the story progresses his shirt starts to turn gray veda has a black shirt on so like it's kind of signaling that vicrum over time as he's listening to vta is you know, ah changing within himself from being this person who believes. His own justice and his own rightness to a person who begins to question. So um, there's also go ahead. 11:06.53 Raúl There's also no I'm sorry, go ahead. There's also ah the point where veda is at his um, arguable criminal like peak when he is like the dawn. He puts on um, a doti which is like a a skirt that is like pure white and it's the it's the only time he ever wears it in the film and it sticks out because nobody the the only other person that had 1 was his previous boss. 11:38.43 Jala and Dave Who was also the don. So yeah. 11:40.80 Raúl So so he like it. It stuck out to me to the point where I looked it up I'm like what is that what is he wearing and it it turns out it's It's formal wear like it's something that politicians wear something that you would wear when you get married so like it. 12:00.63 Raúl It stuck out is just like he's he's wearing like pure a pure white skirt essentially which I thought was pretty cool. It's like he he made it. You know. 12:10.93 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, there's also other characters in the movie who are wearing different colors that symbolize different things but that kind of delves into um like what their significance is to the story. So ah, we'll put a cap in that. But ah, another thing that I wanted to talk about right at the top before we talk about these spoilers and stuff is that Vikram and vedha are approximately the same size and shape in this movie and this is significant because in the twenty twenty two remake. Vikram and vta look completely different. Their physiology is completely different sayy aldi khan who plays Vikram in the new movie is just like a massive dude. He looks like he always looks like he's about to boil over and just destroy someone and whenever he turns and looks at somebody and he's like mad. Just I I'm like oh no, that guy's about to be pummelled into the wall and become paste is what's going to happen to whoever's on the other end of that fist and then veda aka a fritik roshhan he is kind of like a ah leaner wiry looking guy and he's got. Like a full beard and some long hair and he's got what's going on with essentially like the nicholas cage from face off eyes like he really gives Nicholas cage from face off vibe in that movie not as over the top as that. But. 13:38.10 Jala and Dave That's the kind of sensation that you get when you're looking at him in that movie. So. 13:42.71 Raúl And one of the things that I like about the 2017 version is that basically not especially the main characters but basically everybody is a little bit stocky like they're nobody. Although they're they're all super attractive. 14:01.69 Raúl Nobody has the supermodel body. You know like the the main character has a little bit of a gut so does Vick so does a Vedha like there's a chas scene where he he kind of goes at a light jog and it's fine like I like that they didn't you know make them. They didn't marvelize them. 14:21.12 Jala and Dave Yeah, well and the funny thing about it that when you mentioned that is there is a point during that chas scene where Vita is doing his light jog and he's just like who like this sucks I don't I don't like this running business. You know like this. 14:21.65 Raúl And least back then. 14:37.40 Raúl I got into gangster so I became a gangster so I wouldn't have to run. 14:39.59 Jala and Dave Pretty good. Yeah, he literally is like oh my age is now catching up to me but he says it in this such a whimsical way. It's pretty great. So yeah, but like the the whole point is that in the 2017 one which is the the one that we are covering as like the primary one here. Ah, the one that Dave and I love is our 1 of our favorite movies. Ah in that 1 Vikram and veta because they look so similar in stature and everything it is a mirroring effect. So like the whole kind of point of the theming which we will get to eventually is that. There is kind of like a mirroring going on. It's like there isn't an absolute good and an absolute evil in the way that Vikram conceives of it at the beginning and sees everything in black and white. Everything is really a shade of gray and these two are on different ends of the spectrum. Of gray scale right? but they are still kind of like mirror images or kind of like a yin young. So I think yes so I was about to say. 15:45.80 Raúl I I don't want to get into spoilers but I agree with that from a different direction. 15:53.59 Jala and Dave I think that's about as far as I can talk about this without getting into spoiler territory. So is this a good time for everyone. Yes, okay yes, Dave says yes Raúl you good? Okay, cool consider this your spoiler wall. 16:02.80 Raúl Yes. 16:10.45 Jala and Dave And we're back and now we can do the thing. Okay roll continue. 16:15.42 Raúl So I I know the film treats Vikram as if he's the good guy at the beginning and then he like it's reflected in his clothing that you know he starts out wearing white. He ends up wearing gray and veta starts off wearing black ends up wearing gray. But. If you pay attention va although they they've they say that they've killed the same amount of people at some point like 16 or 17 veda is the only one who's never killed an innocent person at the end of the movie or as Vikram has. 16:50.22 Jala and Dave Yeah, this is true. 16:54.93 Raúl And um, and think I think I might be getting ahead of things but but yeah, um from the very can can we start with the now we knowt we're past this spoter all from the very first scene with within in the first four minutes of the movie. 17:12.21 Raúl The main character Vikram he he makes he makes fun of a a new police officer for being a virgin calls his coworker fat executes a prisoner who had surrendered in cold blood after like messing with him and then plants guns and shoots a member of his own team to to get away with it and it's like yeah. Our hero ladies and gentlemen. This is the good guy. Um. 17:34.77 Jala and Dave Yeah, and the thing is is that when when I say like they're on different sides of this gray scale in their own minds right? So like like in viram's mind he thinks that he is on the side of of. Right? And that veta is absolutely on. You know, like a unconscionable terrible person I don't think that veta thinks of himself as being a bad person I think he thinks that he is also justified and that you know he's done some things but he at least hasn't. As you say like killed an innocent person. All the people that he's ended up having to go up against he hasn't killed people wantonly he's only done it when he's needed to do it for 1 or another reason so you know like I think they both think of themselves as being on the justified side and the other person being on the other side and so. You know it's kind of an interesting thing and I think the large point of that for Vikram in particular is is as he goes through the movie comes to question this of course but his go to thing is that I'm a police and. By default doesn't matter what happens we're doing the good thing. It doesn't you can excuse anything because we are police and that's just how it is and if you're a criminal. You're obviously bad doesn't matter what you're bad and that's something that the the police investigators say to. 19:05.18 Jala and Dave The whole unit they were they were um, calling them in there and calling into question what they're doing because of the press that the police were getting and they're like you went and you did an encounter on these guys and you shot these people and you know then Vikram's like it was us or them. Do you want dead cops. We just have to do the thing and it's like. No like that guy had given himself up like not that the police ah not that the inspectors knew that part that you know, um that one guy had surrendered when he was shot but at the same time It's still kind of the same point going through the viewer's mind you know. 19:41.38 Raúl Yeah, and and not only are they planting weapons on these guys. They've done it so much they have like a procedure for like you know, check his watch. Let's see which hand he uses to put on the right hand which ends up being like a ah Chekhov's corruption I guess because that. 19:59.10 Jala and Dave Well and it's kind of funny too because when that happens in the movie. The first thing I did was go ha ha ha if I if I was the dead body they were trying to figure out that would have been absolutely wrong because I'm left handed but I wear my watch on my left hand left wrist rather so anyway, that's. 19:59.38 Raúl That comes in handy later. 20:15.67 Raúl Haha, joke's on you Murder cops. 20:19.30 Jala and Dave Jokes on you murder cops I would have blown this whole thing open my dead corpse anyway, so so yeah um the police inspectors though they tell Vikram there's no difference between you and the cop or and you and the gangsters because of the way that you conduct. Your investigations and things and so they're calling him into question just as soon as you know there's a scene that isn't Vikram doing his thing you know and later on. His wife tells him this same thing like his wife is like you know what's the difference here between you and you know what you're supposedly you know fighting against because you're doing the same stuff. so um so anyway this is a movie that is based on a folklore tale. Raúl can you tell us a little bit about said Vikram Vedhal. 21:14.63 Raúl Okay, um I am going to go into probably more detail than is needed so feel free to cut out. Whatever you want Dave okay, all right here we go so the. 21:31.73 Raúl Ah, bethal pacisi is a story from the eleventh Century ah based on this indian king named viramadia oh and I apologize for my horrible pronunciation for anybody listening I'm doing my best but he. Seems to be kind of like the equivalent of an indian King Arthur where he may or may not have been based on an actual person who lived in the first Century Bce but over time like so much has been added to the legend and stuff that couldn't have taken place. At the time that he's effectively a composite fictional character. Um, and so this this king is visited by a yogi or a sorcer and in various different versions. He's offered something. Maybe immortal life in one really bizarre one. He's given a bunch of apples that have gems in the middle so he feels guilty and offers to do a favor for the sorcer. But regardless the the yogi asks him to find it to bring back a Vetala which is. It's often translated as vampire, but it's not quite that it's kind of like a ghoul that hangs out in a crematorium where you would burn dead bodies and it can take over dead bodies to live but it's like a spirit that ends up. 23:05.46 Raúl Just spending most of its time hanging upside down from a tree. So um, pick it up I'm just gonna say Vikram from now on Vakram Vikram goes to to get the vtaah and he captures them and as he's bringing him back. The vtaah tells him. 23:25.22 Raúl Ah, story and in different versions of the story because there are literally dozens of versions. Sometimes he just can't help himself like he he has to answer the question sometimes he's under a curse that his head will do. Shatter into a thousand pieces if he doesn't answer the question but every time he answers it and breaks the silence. The vetala is able to escape and each story. There's 25 of these stories each 1 is but is either a riddle or a morality tale where they'll say something like did you know these these 4 people did this thing and then someone died who was most at fault and Vikram will say it was this person because Xy and Z. And yeah, he's right? but then the vetala escapes and the very last story. He's finally told at told the tale that he does not know the answer to he's told he's asked if ah, a father and son marry. A mother and daughter but the father marries the daughter and the mother marries the son and they have kids. What's the kid's relation which I mean I couldn't answer that but neither could Bikram so he he's bringing the the vetala back. 24:57.13 Raúl And the Vetala tells him the sorcer who sent you is going to betray you he needs the the body of a king to do some kind of ritual so he's going to ask you to bow before him and then he's going to kill you So What you can do is ask him to show you how to bow since you're a King, you've never bowed before. And when he does kill him and he gets back and that that's exactly what happens and then in some versions of the gods come down and tell Vikram he's He's awesome and they give him a boon Sometimes he gets him. Ah. 25:33.98 Raúl Let's call it. He gets ah immortality or his story will be told for the rest of history or something and that's the whole thing. It's kind of like as you watch each as you read each individual tale it it effectively like teaches you the morality of the time which. Sometimes was iffy. But but yeah and it's it I like this interpretation of it in the movie because it like it. It hewed to it but it also it makes it. 26:13.32 Raúl Better because the the stories are all disconnected like at at a certain point. They're just become like riddles like well this happened why did that happen and in this one each story informs the framing story like you could if you wanted to you could swap out the 25 26:32.32 Raúl Tales for any other tales and nothing would change in the original story. You couldn't do that with this movie. 26:37.51 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, yeah, that's True. So That's really cool. Um, it sounds like you know this movie is definitely in line with the original Tale insofar as like the the format. The. Kind of way that it's set up. Um my only introduction to this story was originally from just the little animated intro and ending to the movie. 27:03.36 Raúl Oh that animated intro is nothing like the tale it like it's it's almost like if somebody heard of the tale but then they decided to do like Dragon Ball Fanfic involving the characters or something. 27:18.98 Jala and Dave Yeah, and that and that's just it's they have you know like a minute to do some shorthand and give the audience like oh here's the updated you know 2020 version of. 27:33.50 Raúl Yeah, but I can I can imagine it wasn't necessary because I can I can only assume it's just something that's known over there. 27:33.53 Jala and Dave Twenty Seventeen yes the 27 I'm seen. Yeah yeah, yeah, no well, it's kind of like you know there are different tales of America or other you know countries that are. Really well known over here. So you know it's kind of like Johnny Appleseed or Paul Bunyan or whatever you know and and talking about that I mean is not. It's not apples to apples in this particular case. But yeah, you don't have to explain ah a King Arthur you can just give a you know reminder this is this. 27:57.70 Raúl Um, yeah, yeah, you don't have to explain who King Arthur is every time you. 28:11.67 Jala and Dave And then move on. Yeah, we we say that but they do every time so it's a cross that was like okay this is Spiderman seventeen we're going to tell you about Uncle Ben again ah yes so I mean that is a thing that is true. Um. 28:16.00 Raúl And this is how Batman's parents died. 28:30.57 Jala and Dave You know for for whatever reason hollywood will never get over that. But that's specifically a hollywood thing and specifically like the Marvel's decision on on their part but but I mean movies in general do that? they they do. You have to kind of play to the lowest common denominator. Um, you don't have to but that's what they do ah or they're trying to introduce a new audience to like existing material so children. Sometimes if if that's part of the demographic may not have had a chance to like get that tail. So just a quick like reframing of something is enough. Well and then for folks such as me and Dave and you as well Raúl like we are not from India and we watch vikrum venha vha and so like having that little and animated intro is like huh. What's that. Oh it's based on some kind of a folk story. Okay, well let's look into this story then so we know you know a little bit more about what what that was all about you know that still tipped us off and and triggered hey we need to look into that. So. 29:34.41 Raúl Yeah I I like that Firama Dia was kind of basically like a proto nerd like like ah someone's wrong I have to correct them and that's why and and that's why he keeps losing the the vetala. 29:48.28 Jala and Dave I Think that that would be a very very different movie. So for sure. Um I did want to talk a little bit about the bollywood remake. Um, just in some brief terms and kind of. 30:04.32 Jala and Dave Compare contrast some of that as well. So ah, the 2022 remake still had the same directors the same composer same cinematographer. So it had the same um core team of creatives working on it as the 2017 version and it's shot in a very different way. So it's not like you can expect just different actors into the same movie that was done in 17 it shot in a very different way because it's for a different demographic and to me it's pushka and guyatri. Really, you know, showing their director chops that they are able to switch from the style of the neo noir original hollywood movie to the Bollywood version. That's like. Bigger and flashier and has like a different kind of pacing to it a different kind of framing to it and you know has a lot more color to it than the original I will say that I haven't seen anything call the new movie a Neo Noir movie because it really isn't at this point it's just like an action cop movie. You know on the on the bollywood version. So um, the presentation is really different this course story and all the same beats like those are still there. There are some shots that you can 1 to 1 show to the original and see how very similar they are to the originals. 31:33.71 Jala and Dave Version. But there's also a lot of ways in which it deviates from that. Um I do know that pretake really was into playing the role of Vta and wanted to like push the character forward and develop the character more. But I think. At least for me and Dave when we were watching it. We didn't really um, sit with that one quite the same way. Dave do you have some phones the the largest feeling is that ah who dick version is belongs in a different movie like. He's just doing his own movie and then it happens to be at a movie going on at the same time and then oh look they kind of intersect but that's also part partly in due to how the framing is of stories within stories and in in either version of the film. Vikram and veda aren't on the screen but for like together for like maybe 5 minutes They're they're doing their own stuff. Um, so that doesn't help when one of the characters like I'm just going to channel nicholas cage for an entire movie on my own. And not feel like that's mixing thematically with what what else is going on. Yeah, really it just to me the friti's portrayal of veta. Although it is valid in and of itself just seems like a different like. 33:05.66 Jala and Dave Alternate universe version to me more than it does like a development of what was in the original 2017 version. What Dave and I were kind of comparing ah the Vikram and wedha from the newer movie too is like Vedha is kind of like a joker. Character and sayif Ali Khan's Vikram is like the angry and frustrated Batman of dark night. They both are from dark night. They're more or less pulling those 2 roles forward. Um and the 2017 version sattopatis vta is. Really methodical and measured and controlled and commanding as Vikram with whimsy thrown in but it's a little bit more downplayed because you know it feels more credible more realistic the way that that portrayal is because. Somebody who has like a whimsical personality but has the gravitoss of that kind of position of power. Would you know behave more like satupatti's version in my opinion and so in some places he kind of feels like. Hannibal lecter like ah Anthony Hopkins Hannibal lecter when he's in super serious mode but then in other places he's really really, um, just I don't I can't really pull like a character that it reminds me of but. 34:31.10 Jala and Dave Just something you know more lighthearted and kind of not taking the dire life and death circumstances as dire life and death circumstances kind of trivializing the situation and you know not caring about the situation. The way that he might otherwise. 34:47.22 Jala and Dave And so I think that that plays really well with the theme of everything is not black and white. It is Shade. So Why would he have to ah do one or the other like he doesn't need to always be serious or only do this.? He's like it's just a mixture. Um, and life is. Tough and it kind of sucks. So If you're not like having some kind of fun with it like what are you doing. 35:09.41 Raúl Yeah, well one of the vda's traits that I find most endearing is that he is just horrifically bad at using guns. He has like 0 muzzle control he like in the gun fight. He's constantly like just gonna. Pink panther his way like walk out and get shot and he keeps getting pulled back by Vikram like I found that to me that that was I don't know I found that very endearing. Um, and it's I find it odd that ritic would want to further develop veda because I think vdas. The most developed character in the whole movie. You know, um, maybe followed by Vikram or pulley. 35:51.40 Jala and Dave yeah yeah I think that they put the most time into him like you kind of needed to because he's you're using him as the the device to tell all the morality tales. Um, but yeah that that that sort of like cool. Closo kind of goofiness. It's it's nice to see and they also address it within the the world of the film. They don't um, acquiring guns in the first place toward the end of the movie or I guess when he starts his gang war was like an ordeal. Like we don't normally bring this to the table and that met up the game because before it was like we have some knives and like a pipe or something. Um, yeah, and so him just not being used I mean he wasn't that that's not the kind of. 36:34.60 Raúl And we're gonna west side story our way through this fight. 36:45.26 Jala and Dave Criminal activity. He was engaging in for the most part was like it's not We're not going to just do gun fights all the time but now the police that's all they've been doing so something that I'm a little bit curious about too is that in the 2022 they up the guns so much and in the bollywood version. There are not just like you know, pistols and stuff. There's like automatic weapons in play like I don't know if that's an a k that fruitti has in like that big scene and that's in the trailer but like he straight up has you know, automatic weapons and he's just going on this like binge of killing people like cackling in the middle of a. Impractical circle where he's just standing totally exposed and just like shooting at folks which is like not at all the feel that I get from vitta from the twenty seventeen original so it's like you know I don't know it. It felt really really different. But I don't know if that's because in. The difference in timeframe between 2017 and 2022 or the difference in place in India makes a difference to how much access gangsters would have in South India versus you know Northern India like how much access they would have to those kinds of weapons. You know I'm not really sure about that and that might be just something about the culture or the change in the times that I'm just not getting and that's something that they put into the plot in the twenty Twenty two in in the twenty seventeen the introduction of guns was in fact, it was a thing. 38:18.46 Jala and Dave Meant to um, level like level the battlefield and um, ah bedi gets a hold of 2 pistols to finish off the gang war like no one else would have had guns whereas in the 2022 version. They have to import in like an ak 47 ah, they they had been using guns up until that point but they were just handguns and they they make ah a point of going you brought in a thing that no one else has and it's this automatic weapon and it's going to change like that it will be very very 1 ne-sided once you have this and they. They've of course like really hammered up but it it also is the thing that kicks off the police investigation because in order to counter something. He's armed now with an automatic weapon The only thing that they can do as well now, we're going to aim the police at you. 39:16.14 Raúl Yeah, they have more guns and no one cares if they use them. 39:19.25 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, so another thing I wanted to mention in comparison of the 2017 to the 2022 is that the focus of vikro and Vedha both in the twenty seventeen seems more narrowed like I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean that as though. Like they are focused on their own vikron wants to take care of the cops. He wants to take care of his wife and that is it although it's questionable about his wife because he also like uses her as know a tool to his own ends. Ah for part of the movie because he's a wonderful person. Um, but. 39:56.94 Jala and Dave Veta you know in the 2022 feels a little bit more to me like he's approaching things from like a societal level and same thing with Vikram they feel to me and we only got to watch the 2022 once in the theaters and. It's not available for streaming right now. So we're not able to rewatch it for this show. Um, unfortunately so it could be that like on a rewatch our thoughts on it change but like it just feels like they're on a more macro level. It's a bigger louder movie. It's flashier. And so I think they just upped the scale to you know a kind of accommodate like all the flash fan that's going on. 40:41.10 Raúl And like they needed to justify remaking the film after only 5 years 40:46.91 Jala and Dave Yeah, something like that. Um, and I think that it would have been more interesting in the twenty Twenty two if they upped the viewpoint of one of the characters but not the other one and then you know had 1 of them focused on just their own and had the other one focused on the larger like societal picture. And then had them kind of try to come to terms and understand each other from like a vastly different point of view. Not just from like I'm on this side and you're on this side but also the scale at which we're operating is very very different. You know that would have been more interesting I think to me. And the 2022. 41:23.98 Raúl Or maybe include ah third characters like Ravi's perspective or something. 41:30.10 Jala and Dave Something like that. Um, so yeah, we already mentioned it before but the colors and the tones in the seventeen are very Neo Noir it's kind of like muted colors things like that. The color is used for an effect in the narrative like say for example. In the beginning. Ah Mooney who Vikram kills. That's the one who lays down his weapon in the beginning is wearing a purple shirt and that's like the first color that you really see in the film and that's the color purple has a bunch of different meanings. But one of those meanings. Is ambiguity and that fits for this because like you know it makes you feel ambiguous about your main character off the bat because he's supposed to be the guy who's like your hero character but you're not. Down with him because he just shot this man and in cold blood. So. 42:28.33 Raúl And the whole that whole gunfight was instigated by them. They walked in and the first 2 people they shot they shot one of them was bully and he was unarmed like they walked in there and the ah I guess spoiler the. 42:45.45 Raúl The corrupt cop with him declines to shoot him and our hero comes in and says no kill the guy and shoots him he doesn't actually say it is his action say it. 42:50.21 Jala and Dave Yeah, well and the thing is Mooney the character who's killed in cold blood something that's significant about Vikram's decisions. He kills him in cold blood. But then he goes to Dilip who is Mooney's son and. Has this whole time where he goes and you know to dillop and just checks on him and then dillop tries to kill him just because it's his duty as a son to try to you know do this? How how could I face anybody in in this neighborhood if I didn't try to kill the guy who killed my dad even if I hated my dad you know and. 43:27.79 Jala and Dave Vikram stops him from killing him and then pays to foster him for all that I could tell and and also he was following up with checking in on other children that he had had fostered there from the the criminals. He's killed. 43:31.97 Raúl Yeah, that. 43:38.49 Raúl Yeah, that that actually made him even seem worse to me because it's like he's an Orphan Factory like the the guys like oh yeah, tell me about how how the previous orphans I dropped off here and made are are doing. You know it's like you. You're not looking good here. 43:58.22 Raúl It's I guess less bad but damn. 43:59.14 Jala and Dave At the very least he is trying to pay to help them out rather than leave them on the streets and his his rationale for it is that he doesn't want to make more criminals. He wants to reform these kids by putting them in foster care or whatever but like yes, he's the one who straight up just murdered. But everybody's parents. So yeah, that's that's a lot the new guy when you first see him is wearing red and red symbolizes a bunch of things of course but also simplicity and innocence. It also stands for a specific time and place in a person's life and when that guy first rolls up on this you know group. He is just like a straight up innocent cop who doesn't know about the corruption of Vikram's unit and ends up eventually becoming you know an accessory slash you know party to all of that stuff. The great part is out of the entire like police police corruption ring of this unit. Vikram's not in on it because he's so um, stolid in his belief in police justice that he wouldn't you wouldn't have agreed with it in the first place. But. 45:13.79 Jala and Dave He's no less culpable for all of the actions and then he just gets so confused when the new guy is like oh I'm actually corrupt too is that where what you're the new guy. Yeah, yeah. 45:23.68 Raúl Ah, well something something that gets lost and I missed it the first time too is that Vikram is also the new guy. They've only been in that city for three months so so they probably if I had to guess fan can in this. 45:43.25 Raúl Ah, they probably approached him circumspectly and they're like no no, this guy will not go for it. So let's let's keep him around. He'll be our scapegoat if anything goes wrong. 45:50.85 Jala and Dave It could be good. Be so something going on with the colors vta's apartment and the boats when he carries the sledgehammer to go kill that guy in the first story. All of that stuff is green and he's wearing a green shirt and green is the color of beginnings and it's then that he really starts because he's already done some smuggling but that's when he first starts killing people is when he's in green. So that's kind of like the beginning of of all of that setting all of that up. 46:22.47 Raúl That's um, can we get into that story for a little bit. Um, that start well I guess not so much the story but the ending of the story. Well I'll I'll just it's thirteen years ago basically va 46:40.15 Raúl Ah, did something impressive and brought some positive Notorie Some some fame to himself and the underworld got a promotion and his brother and his little ah female friend I don't say girlfriend. But. 46:58.65 Raúl Of how young they are but his future wife ah basically get kind of involved in some stuff with the guy who he replaced and bully ends up ah snitching and he he gets a little scar. On his hand which ends up being a a load-bearing scar for the plot but ah at the very end he asks his first question of Vikram when he's he's walking up by the green boats and he swings a sledgehammer it pauses and he asks. Bikram who should I be punishing should I be punishing Ravi who did that to my brother or should I be punishing sanggu. The guy who ordered it and Vikram says well obviously sanggu he's the one who ordered it ravi's just a weapon He's useless. And he ends up being right? but that question is kind of like the whole point of the movie because Vikram himself is also just a weapon and and like the the questions he asked ends up being a lot more important like that. 48:15.16 Raúl Theme of like the questions that he asked keep coming up throughout the movie. 48:18.45 Jala and Dave Well and not only that but by overlooking Ravi Ravi ends up being a big big player as the movie continues too and if he had killed ravi back then then a lot of the later stuff wouldn't have ended up happening the way it did. 48:33.19 Raúl Yeah Po and all thoseos. 48:39.96 Jala and Dave Exactly. So yeah and that's that's part of the point. Um, when but because he doesn't know that robb betrays him but when he's. We're talking about that story and and giving his ultimatum of like you know, who should you have kids if I if I kill 1 the other one will flee and then try to revenge like but you you understood that and then you just forgot about it. It's like you you made the the other guy your right hand man kind of. And that that bit you like real hard because it basically got your entire gang killed yeah because um, for listeners who are maybe just listening to this and still on the fence about you know they don't care about spoilers and they're just listening about this. So Ravi the character who injures. Veta's brother as a result of all the stuff going on. You know, being replaced by vda and pulley snitching on the way ravi does business so ravi later on ends up working up the ranks and having to serve vedda as veda takes over the gang. And eventually betrays veta because he's hated vta this entire time and he wants to replace veda and so he ends up contracting the corrupt cops of Vikram's unit to take veda out and veda is gang out and so he's informing them about. 50:11.26 Jala and Dave Where they're going to be and what they're going to be doing and is paying them off to specifically make sure that all these people die. So what that means is that all Avita's gang 1 by 1 gets killed by Viram's unit but it's only because Robbie ordered it and so if it ah had killed. Robbie at this point so many years ago then that would have never happened so or at least not from that particular person maybe somebody else would have been the one who took Robbie's place ah trying to overthrow vta but ah, ultimately that gets pull killed. So. 50:50.29 Jala and Dave Although I say that but like the corrupt cop didn't want to kill pulley and it was Vikram that killed pulley. So anyway. 50:54.16 Raúl Yeah, the I Ironically you as you find out later the the corrupt cop that took the money is actually aside from Vikram the least corrupt cop there because he's the only one that had a decent reason his his son has asthma and he's. 51:11.70 Raúl Or or at least some kind of respiratory condition that he's trying to pay for to keep his son alive. The other ones are like well you like going to the the whorehouse every day and you go and gamble. You know this much money every day and you have a very nice car. 51:26.65 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, and that's very true that the um only other person and then too simon ends up dying because he starts feeling guilty and he wants to try to save Chandra who is pulley's eventual wife. Ah, you know who's been there since the beginning and he's trying to save Chandra's life and ends up dying in the process killed by the corrupt cops that are in his own unit. So that's kind of like she's the 51:59.73 Jala and Dave The crescendo of like the story but there's so many different aspects to this that you could just camp out on and think about and just follow the threat of and go man if something had been done differently at this point than this would have happened instead and if only they had said blah blah blah to this other person. You know. 52:16.54 Raúl It's a good thing. They never learn how to properly plant the gun. 52:17.49 Jala and Dave Yeah, because in that case, Chandra is also left handed like me so they planted the gun in the right hand and that's what tips off Vikram to you know the corruption of the planting of the gun. So. 52:24.28 Raúl They and and I love that you know she's left handed because she's eating Roti with her left hand which you know you're in general year 52:43.77 Raúl Clean stuff is with your right hand unsavory stuff like if you're washing your feet or or your bottom you would use your left hand so eating with your left is kind of a faux Pa but I I love that scene because I love Rothie So I was like yeah they're eating my food. 53:02.40 Jala and Dave Ah, that's that is that is the best justification for liking something in this movie yet I Love it. So yeah, ah con continuingu on with color talk priya is wearing purple which is again the color of ambiguity when she explains to Vedha. 53:18.74 Jala and Dave Ah, or explains to Vikram that veta is an important client of her law firm and at that point she also tells Vikram that he is acting unlawfully and everybody's given him the red flags and he's just not seeing them so um. 53:30.86 Raúl Oh something I looked this up. It turns out there is attorney client privilege in India there has been for decades but the surveillance stuff where they're like monitoring his phone is actually legal there. 53:49.28 Raúl Because I was I was curious just you know how big of a lawbreaker Vicar was and in this case, slightly less than I thought. 53:54.17 Jala and Dave Um, okay, well still I mean it's It's an ethical question more than ah, is it legal in that case. Well and that you get into the the weeds with light you have the. 54:11.44 Jala and Dave Investigating party like married to the the defense attorney like yeah I don't think you can do that. That's definitely a giant conflict of interest and then he's bugging her. So yeah, that's probably no go. 54:20.54 Raúl Um, ah I I think I think clarence and Ginny Thomas would disagree. 54:30.71 Jala and Dave Ah, ah, all right? So when Vikram first goes to the warehouse and finds Simon Dead he's wearing blue which is the color of loyalty bravery and sadness. So you know he's loyal to his friend who died he is you know trying to face everything. And does end up uncovering the truth and facing that truth you know and of course he said so when Vedha is dealing with cheta and and talking sugar about puy. He's also wearing red which is for love bravery and strength and that's when they have their whole. Ah, 1 little dance number in the thing where they're they're all drunk and kind of singing is it's not a bollywood production where there's like a separate stage and like new costumes and the whole 9 um in the original version. It's very diajetic. It's just kind of like they're all hanging out and they are all dancing together and they just came up with this on the fly and they're not singerers. Yeah, that kind of a thing you know. 55:26.78 Raúl Yeah, but while I'm not well I'm not a fan of the song itself I do I do like the production because I I think it's the first one I've seen where it's all men dancing and just men dancing with men. 55:45.90 Raúl And it makes sense in context. There are no women at this bar. You know it's kind of an it's an underworld bar but I also like that the dancer at least the stars are not you know dance gods like rithic Roshan like they're dancing like normal people like. They can dance but they're not dancers as opposed to you know how I can only well I did as opposed to how it is in in the 2022 where it's rithic doing his thing. 56:14.26 Jala and Dave Yeah, with like neon glowing I don't even know what I mean that that that's a such a production and there's there's like 200 people on that that dance floor and you still can only see he's just destroying the dance floor. And also he's got like the wild high wild eyes and wild hair. It's like you can't look away from it. It's just so so I don't know. Ah yeah, arresting what it is and he seems to be like a ah compilation of like mountain ascetic and then criminal like that's the look. He just. Decided to go with. Yeah yeah, and I think that's just you know in his version of ita. That's what he sees it as you know so. 57:02.10 Raúl What something that I noticed at this point in the movie is a lot of Indian movies have slapping in them I I Actually not sure the significance of it. But this movie is like the slappinging. Like like they're they're easily 80 plus slaps in this movie and they're just doled out left and right including like spousal abuse basically like. 57:26.96 Jala and Dave Yeah, the best Ah, ah, hu well the the best 1 is that that spousal scene where police smacks. Chandra and then Chandra turns around and smacks him back and is like oh no, you did like we're not tech. We're not going there I love that I know that was that was such a good scene because he's like you can't stay mad at a naked man. Yes. 57:44.22 Raúl And then he's like I'll show you I'm gonna take all my clothes off. 57:57.11 Jala and Dave It's so good and like there the the thing about the original 2017 is that everybody has so much good chemistry. You know there's such good chemistry between Vikram and Pria there's such good chemistry between pull and Chandra and from vda and Chandra or vda and pulley. As well like just all of their interactions like the chemistry between the actors and actresses is just so good in that one that is really hard to kind of top that like I don't get the same feeling from the 2022 in a lot of those scenes like they're they're making the faces they're doing the things but the energy's different and so it just doesn't have the same connection as I feel when I'm seeing the 2017 one like it feels more grounded more realistic in some ways even though it is a fantastic kind of. Story that's being told and like a retelling of this folk story. You know it still feels more grounded in such a way that like it. It feels authentic. It feels real and it feels relatable. You know I love the fact that. The 2 female characters that are in here because mostly it's all men but the 2 female characters are both very strong individuals with strong presences and they don't just take a back seat. You know. 59:17.70 Raúl Yeah, something another thing I really appreciate about this movie is they they have 2 pairs of characters that are married and they show them like they have implied and you know very very soft. Ah, love scenes and yet they still manage to go the whole movie without them kissing and I didn't even notice it until I was looking for it this time and that's just that's a thing people in bollywood very very very rarely Kiss. So i. I thought it was it was impressive that they managed to make them seem passionate without ever actually kissing. 59:57.15 Jala and Dave Well, especially since in hollywood it's so gratuitous right? like you have as many times as possible. Somebody's inhaling somebody else's face. You know why? it's just a thing that is just all over the place in hollywood movies. So they they try to show as much skin and as much of that kind of. Stuff like you know real. Youre like oh his tongue is all a bitter or throat or whatever you know? So I think we even when we were talking about the 2022 Batman I think I was commenting on that at at 1 point about that Kiss ah that and Catwoman and Batman have so. 01:00:34.82 Raúl And and another thing I like is that even even Chandra at this point she gets to be a complicated character. You know the the impetus for this gang war was during this flashback. Ah bully. 01:00:50.65 Raúl Using his mad accountancy skills ah had started money laundering for his brother and his brother goes to his boss and says hey we could make a ton of money and be legit. So his boss gives them some money they go and they drop it off at bully's house and she has a moment of weakness where she. She says oh my god this is and I looked it up. It's about seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars which is just insane to leave in someone's closet but she finds this money and says oh fuck this I'm out like she she fakes her own kidnapping and she. She's gone for all of like 1 or 2 scenes until she realizes like you know she had spent her whole life with bully and she didn't realize how much she loved him until he wasn't there and I was like wow they know for for a character that could have been nothing. You know they they had some depth to her. 01:01:43.75 Jala and Dave Well also I'm questioning ah was he money laundering I thought he was just investing in businesses. 01:01:48.98 Raúl And turning it from black to white turning the money from black to white which I interpret which yeah, yeah, that's that's what I interpreted as. 01:01:56.50 Jala and Dave Okay, so that's what you mean by? Um, okay, okay, that's how you mean it? Ok, ok, ok, yeah, his police stuff was legitimate this I don't think um, va may have been making some. Ah, investments I know in the 2022 that had like nothing to do with it. Pauley was doing his something until this moment and then he's like oh I got I can put in a bunch of money and then we don't have to do so we can get out of the drugs and all this other stuff we can just do this investments. It's making a lot of money. 01:02:30.58 Jala and Dave Yeah I will say for the 2022 version that um, when they are going through the whole thing with Vedha and pulley. Um, although his name is not pulley in the new one I forget it's something else. Anyway, they they rename a bunch of the characters when they move it to bollywood. But anyway. 01:02:50.17 Jala and Dave Ah, so Vedha and ah pulley. Whatever his name is in that movie. Um, the way that those interactions go I think that it it does a little bit more in the twenty Twenty two to expand on that that whole success that pulley is having and giving pulley his moment. You know to. Shine as having um, become successful and in all of that and kind of sits I think with pulley a little bit more and sits with vedha feeling really tired of because the you know in the the 2017 I don't necessarily feel like vta's necessarily tired of doing. His gang stuff but like in the 2022 it does come across that he's just worn out. He doesn't want to do this anymore. He is looking for a way to to get out of the game you know and so that's a little bit of a difference where the 2022 I think does a little bit of a different job that I don't know if it's necessarily a good or bad job. But it's just. 01:03:46.66 Jala and Dave You know a direction to go with it. So. 01:03:47.71 Raúl Yeah, yeah, and this one he he kind of seems to almost want to get in the game but his brothers keeping him out but but right around now is when the second story ends and he asks and Vda asked Vikram. 01:04:06.81 Raúl But I think that the key question in this movie which is when he's told he should kill his brother by his boss does he pick family or work and Bikram says well of course you pick family because Boe is innocent and. Then you kind of see it in his eyes. He says like you know pulley is innocent and he stops and like he's thinking. Oh no I killed pulley pulley's innocent. 01:04:31.48 Jala and Dave Ah, and that same thing kind of happens if you're watching vdas face when um, he's trying to do the you've killed this many and I've killed this many people and then Vikram corrects him and says no I killed more people than you think. 01:04:45.17 Jala and Dave And so then Vikram kind of does a double take and he's just like oh you killed everyone in that last encounter and he knows that pulley was one of those people and that's how he finds out the news that his brother has died is in that investigation you know in in interrogation room when Vikram set corrects him on the number killed. 01:05:05.11 Jala and Dave And he has just like but he has to still have his face and he still has to go on with everything but he just got the news confirmed that Pulley has died. 01:05:11.42 Raúl And I guess to to his credit. They they never say it but veda realizes that even though Vikram pulled the trigger he himself is the one that got pully killed. 01:05:26.22 Raúl Because of his his actions and his decisions and I think that's part of why he never has any animosity for Vikram even when he damn well should because because vacram's just a weapon. 01:05:33.34 Jala and Dave Yeah, and it's yeah and he recognizes that about Vikram and. 01:05:42.44 Raúl He's He's a weapon for ravi and he ends up being a weapon for Vedha. 01:05:47.37 Jala and Dave Um, yep, so but at that point when he's you know, asking work or family and all of that 1 of the main themes that we haven't really talked about in this movie is just duty as a householder. And duty with your society just like your larger role your job your whatever and Vikram and pria come into contact or conflict when they take work into their home and allow it to affect their interpersonal relationship and. You know it's predicated on this whole movie is predicated on relationships which all fail due to perceived duties so like Pria and Vikram get into fights because of their perceived duties interfering with their relationships and Vikram and Vedha. Actually you know are. Are on pretty pretty even footing and or v does a little bit on better footing because he knows more than Vikram does but like you know there there would be friendship is is also because of their duty not a thing and you know various other times. Duty gets in the way of whatever the relationship is and things kind of start crumbling. You've got a lot of parent child relationships as well. You've got Vikram and his older boss. You've got the mob boss and veda you've got vta and pulley you've got simon and his son. 01:07:19.62 Jala and Dave Criminal that is killed by Vikram which is Mooney and the criminal's son delipp who is fostered by Vikram and the son again attempts to kill Vikram to fulfill his duty as a son so there's a lot a lot of parent-child relationship stuff in here. 01:07:40.82 Jala and Dave So another question is of course like it's it's pretty obvious answer can you separate an absolute good from an absolute evil the way that Vikram starts the movie he thinks oh yes I am the absolute good and veta is the absolute evil. As are all of these criminals. They are absolutely evil and you know that's kind of like the way that they take it. But as the movie continues and goes through everybody kind of moves towards the center if you will of the spectrum and. That's proven to be incorrect like all the people that you think were quote unquote good. You know are you know or who purport themselves you know are purported to be good for 1 or another reason either by their role or whatever, whatever other justification like you know everybody who is in 1 or another position is actually. 01:08:36.57 Jala and Dave Not spotless or not completely black. 01:08:38.74 Raúl Yeah, the the senior inspector the older guys basically playing the role of the Yogi in the story. 01:08:46.55 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, and then one Ah, after watching this multiple multiple times so we see the police continually do this unit doing bad things and there are senseibly the good guys. The um, the group that Vedha. Runs we see them hanging out and we see them like drinking together and having fun they're they're generally not doing crimes like we see them after the like after something's happened but we don't see them doing bad things in general they're just in the community. 01:09:20.47 Raúl And they when they do do bad things. It tends to be to each other. 01:09:26.20 Jala and Dave Yeah, and not only that but like the entire communities that they're in are like protective of them. Ah because they're not. They're engaged with the community they're doing probably good things for it with with their money even like the mob bosh shows up and they seem to be like. They're beneficial to the area they're in whereas the police every time everyone's like oh no, the police have shown up. The people are going to die or something which yeah I was going to say which kind of tracks to actual life like ah you know and. 01:09:52.25 Raúl Especially these cops. 01:10:00.20 Raúl Yeah I I remember oh go ahead. Sorry I remember ah back in the 90 s there were I think it was in California they were trying to and make some anti-gang laws and. 01:10:15.47 Raúl They ended up having to change them because before they were implemented because they realized like if if the definition of gang is not very very narrow. It can include the police officers in the gang units like they are they technically would also be gangs under that law so they had to like. Change to narrow the definition down. 01:10:35.35 Jala and Dave Yeah, that tracks so another comparison that I was thinking about in my own head for this movie is considering this story and compare contrasting it with the Mahabara. So in the mahahaat. There is. Ah, gigantic war that is happening and the prince Arjun does not want to kill his kinfolk who are on the opposite side of this army but Krishna comes to him and tells him that it is his duty to do so because he is a warrior. So. Arjun is killing his family members. But it's his duty to do so because he's a warrior and I mean in the larger story of the mahabada. There's like um wrongs committed by those kinfolk that he's killing that have taken his. Country from him you know and um, he and his brothers Arjun and his brothers have been gracious time and again and tolerated these actions over and over again for the sake of peace and at this point it's just at a boiling point. And there is no going back. This is you know the field of battle and they have to settle things because it just can't go on the way it's been and that's at the point when Arjun is on the battlefield looking at them and going I still don't want to kill them I don't want to kill them. You know these are people that are you know. 01:12:03.23 Jala and Dave Relatives of mine you know and Krishna that is when he unveils his thousand armed form in all of its splendor as god and is like no this is your duty you need to do this and. You know that's that's specifically in the bhagavad gita that that specific part is a bhagavad Gita which is a a basically an excerpt from the larger mahabara epic so thinking about it in that term does that mean that Bikram is you know should be. killing veda because that's his duty to kill vta or is his duty to kill the corrupt cops because they are corrupt even though they are from his own um unit and therefore kind of like his. His work family if you will. 01:12:55.42 Raúl Well, that's that ties into the ending of the movie because the first time I watched the movie I thought the the ending it ends with both characters pointing guns at each other and then it just cuts away and I thought it was a cop out pun intended. 01:13:14.71 Raúl Ah, but then I realize like the the whole point of this movie is like this is the bed that would tell a story and ask a question tell a story ask a question. Well the movie tells a story and then it asks a question. What should they do like. 01:13:32.54 Raúl What is the right thing to do in this situation who should die should either of them die like it having an ambiguous ending like that where it asks the viewer the question implicitly I think is that the perfect way to end this film. 01:13:51.20 Jala and Dave Um, yeah I mean that I didn't have a chance to read the um the batal but that is kind of the same unanswerable question like you're you're you're now in a mire of weight so you're doing duty more There's too many. Variables to go. Okay, this is definitively the right thing that should happen right? And that's kind of why I was really curious. What? um people in South India or you know who are from South India think about this movie. You know and like what do they think about the ending of this movie and everything and I went in to talk to a few people and I was like have you seen this movie have you seen this movie from friends of mine to see you know what their reactions would be and a friend of mine lucky was kind kind enough to give me his. Perspective on the ending of this movie so he says that Vikram as a police officer is on a mission to clean up society from the drug lords and the mafia and he does get to be successful in cleaning out. You know these things for the most part other than Vedha. And in indian literature. The story of Vikram and Vedhal a a vda does exist but it has a different angle and in there in the original story. He only comes on Vikram's shoulder and starts reciting the story and once Vikram gives his verdict. 01:15:20.18 Jala and Dave Veta flies away every time So and that's very very unlike as we've already discussed um this movie where it kind of goes into the next story from there and veta is still sitting in the same place you know so. 01:15:32.82 Raúl Called although V that does escape after after every story when he's done telling the the story in the yeah yeah, whenever he leaves the. 01:15:40.87 Jala and Dave Oh that's true. He does he does leave. He does leave but he ends up coming back to tell his next portion of the story whenever he comes across Vikram Next you're right? um. 01:15:50.58 Raúl When he finishes the first story he gets billed out of the police station because they can't get any actual crimes to stick on him. Ah the second time. Ah he after he gets just demolished by viram but vacram can't kill him because there are witnesses he drives him off to a field to kill him there which again. 01:16:10.45 Raúl Our hero ladies and gentlemen. Ah, he tells him the story and he gets Vikram gets distracted. He knocks him over and runs away and the the third story when it ends it's it's at the the clamax of the film. The the question he asks him is. 01:16:30.10 Raúl Which side of the law are you on yeah is is there a side of the like like what side of the line are you on is are you on this side or in that side is the line just a big circle and we don't even know what side we're on and that's the one that Vikram can't answer. 01:16:43.26 Jala and Dave Yeah, so continuing on once Vikram knew that his teammates are corrupt and that they're going to go after him next he then goes and shoots them and at the same time Vetta is there to help him. So. Too Lucky Vikram has blood on his hands and he doesn't arrest veta nor shoots veta so you know that he and he's kind of like on the side of not liking the ambiguity ambiguity of the ending you know, um, he probably remembers the ending a little bit. 01:17:22.76 Jala and Dave Differently because like he says the ending doesn't explain much they are smoking and talking casually to each other that happens. But then right after that is when they aim the guns at each other so they do have that moment where they're just having like buddy cop time more or less you know like if it were a buddy cop movie where they're just hanging out. But. 01:17:30.76 Raúl So smooth. 01:17:38.48 Raúl Um, and it's I'm sorry good. 01:17:41.70 Jala and Dave Well, ah, right after that is when they aimed the guns and so and lucky does say the new bollywood version has that ending brother aiming at each other at point blank range so you know but he he's He's not down with the the ambiguity. You know. 01:17:44.14 Raúl Yeah, that is. And it's it's it's shot in a way that it makes it seem like vdas betraying Vikram but when he turns around to aim his gun at Fikram Bikram already had his gun on him so he was. 01:18:05.27 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, yeah, well because you know they're They're not really sure exactly what side that you know is there a side and what side and what should they do like to me. 01:18:06.30 Raúl He was pre-betrayed. 01:18:19.46 Jala and Dave I Actually like the ambiguity of the ending because I just kind of imagine them locked in that stance for all time and when that movie ends I don't see anything happening after that point because they can't go forward from there. You know. So for me like that is legitimately where the story ends It can't go anywhere else because the whole point the whole point of the the original tale and the way that this movie is done.. The whole point is that it's Unanswerable. You can't You can't resolve this. Any any resolution that they gave this movie would be unsatisfactory. They have to be sitting there pointing their guns at each other and not having an answer but I will ah for listeners link lucky store in the show notes. So lucky. Has a wonderful store from which I have bought many different Statues. He has lots and lots of very amazing statues and I believe also Mala and things like that as Well. So um, he's great and his products are great and he is very knowledgeable and ah definitely fun to talk to in general but also very very. Um, I'm enthusiastic about the products that he has in his store So definitely and give that a look. So but yeah, like for me I don't I can't see any other ending and I was kind of skeptical I was curious about how they were going to end the 2022 one and I'm glad that they didn't change the ending. 01:19:52.99 Jala and Dave For the 2022 because if they had done that then that would have just broken the entire thing to me. 01:20:00.17 Raúl Yeah, they just starve to death a week later 01:20:06.26 Jala and Dave Ah, yeah, pretty much. So yeah, the same same agreement for that. Yeah, so we've covered the entire movie in like record time for this show I mean well I say record time. Um I think the one. Talking about Ace Attorney that we did with Kole was a little bit shorter but um, still I think we've covered the movie top to bottom pretty well, it's an amazing movie i. Love it. Dave loves it watch Sue's hall the vortex. Um. Definitely and Raúl if you have not seen that yet. Definitely take a look at that on Amazon each of the episodes is about an hour I want to say so just like typical TV episode length 01:20:48.17 Raúl Know Yeah, um I mean my Madhavan has good cop face. So I can imagine. He'd be good at it. But oh okay I thought you were talking about the the Tv show. 01:20:55.17 Jala and Dave Madiban's not in it that that sus all the vortexes by the same directors that the Tv show doesn't have Madvan in it. It has the directors. It has the same directors. 01:21:04.67 Raúl Oh oops. 01:21:10.46 Jala and Dave And it has um, a lot of the similar feel to Vikram veta but without being quite so intentionally shot you know like you know they've been doing this for a while this is a Tv show. It's not like you know perfectly crafting a movie. You know, kind of feeling you know it's a little bit different but it also has um. A lot of the culture showing through in the film or in the um tv series that I think is really good and it ah SuHall the vortex is not related to Vikram veha. It just has kind of like if you like Vikram Veta you will probably like suushall because it has some similar elements done in a little bit of a different style. And you know with a different focus. So. So do we have any other ah wrap up thoughts about the film in general Dave no I think we we pretty much covered every every little bit of it. Go go watch the movie if you didn't already watch it or go watch it again because it's a good movie. Yeah Raúl. 01:22:08.20 Raúl Yeah I I can I Can definitely recommend this movie. Um, the only thing if if you haven't watched it and you're listening this far. Um, don't treat this as a mystery movie because it it really isn't it. It has the cadence of a mystery movie but it. On Rewatch. You'll see that there's basically no way you could have figured it out before it's told to you. They just think of it as a thriller a really really good thriller. 01:22:32.81 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to say it. It is action thriller and the ah 20171 is more on the thriller side and I feel like the 2022 is more on the action side. Ah so. Yeah, and I think that wraps us up for this episode. So Raúl cannot be found anywhere but I'm going to ask anyway. Raúl where in the world can people find you on the internet. 01:23:00.61 Raúl I ah man I didn't prepare for this 1 hold. Love ask ask Dave all I think about this. 01:23:01.96 Jala and Dave Oh okay, scratch that okay rawell cannot be found. Okay yes, Dave where can people find you on the internet they can kind of still find me on Twitter it's still exists at sentin on Underscore plus for the for the time being um otherwise. My main podcast is monster dear monster at monster deer dot monster. Yeah, also on fireartmedianetwork so Raoul where can people find you on the internet. 01:23:35.38 Raúl But for all practical purposes I do not exist So don't go looking. Ah my pronouns are no none so please don't. 01:23:49.39 Jala and Dave That's very good I love it. Okay, so of course you can find me anywhere that I may be found at Jolllahan Inch including gellicun dot place where you got this podcast so that's all for now folks. Until next time take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music] [End Chat] 00:00.48 Raúl The another thing I Really like about this movie is just veda himself how he's characterized before you actually meet Him. He's described to to Vikram by his cop buddies. And he's basically described as like this supernatural Ninja Assassin and then immediately after that he he walks into the police station and you know in dramatic Super slow motion walks in draws a gun on an entire goddamn precinct. And then surrenders in the most dramatic way possible. But then later on you see him throughout the rest of the movie and he's He's a little goofball like the the money he got from his first Ah heist I Guess you could say he everybody's. Spending it on like all sorts of stuff and he buys sunglasses that let him move in slow motion basically and he's like yep, this is cool but then at at the very go. But. 01:00.58 Jala and Dave Um, well well in that particular scene too. They're like you know trying to guess what he's thinking and then he's like I was thinking about taking a piss and they're like what and he's like you can't tell. What I'm thinking because of my baller sunglasses. 01:18.46 Raúl Yeah, he's he's still a goofball but but then at the end when he finds out that ravi had betrayed him. He becomes the vda that was described in the beginning is he he just beats wholesale ass getting to to Ravi and just. Demolishes him drags him over to the murder warehouse ties him up and tells Vikram you know come on down. Let's go beat this guy up. 01:44.34 Jala and Dave What I love to is Murder Warehouse is even like called out in the actual film where I think it was Beta who was just like does anybody ever actually work here or was this made just for us to fight in. Ah. 01:57.57 Raúl Yeah, and and then you see the exterior shot and the warehouse is in the middle of just like this I guess in real life. It would be a construction area but it looks just like a hurricane went through it it like like who who lives here what's going on. 02:06.72 Jala and Dave Yeah, yeah, it's just some industrial park but it's not being used for anything. It's so good and then not only that. But the first time you actually see him before you know who he is. It's him walking between all of these like swat people all like there's seventy Thousand swat people or whatever equivalent of swat. You know that are going by in 2 rows on the sidewalk and between all of those guys comes vdha sauntering along eating a. Donughut he just eat lackad daysically eating this donughnut and then just like walks into the precinct and then you know points his guy. It's just. 02:51.70 Raúl Yeah, and and not just any swat guys. These swat guys are being assembled for the purpose of killing him because they because they they say it in the movie like we we can't arrest him because we don't have any evidence. We just have to kill him. That's the right thing to do which. 02:59.71 Jala and Dave Um, yeah, like oh we know where he's at. 03:11.90 Raúl I Don't know that sounds like a red flag to me. But what do I know I'm not a police officer. 03:13.62 Jala and Dave Yeah, and 1 thing the movie did was it. It tried to build this legend around him in the very beginning they're like oh they're telling the new cop. Oh you know you don't you wouldn't meet with vta you would be shaking in your boots because he cut a dude in half. Oh yeah, because they they talk about when he yeah they they talk about how he you know you want to know how he killed that guy in the middle of a crowded marketplace. He jumped off a building and sliced this guy in half with a sword and in the bollywood version. The 2022 they actually show that scene which they did. 03:31.53 Raúl Shin That's right lengthwise. 03:49.84 Jala and Dave Need to do that I think it's better as a boogie Man story. Yeah, no, they show it and it's like well I didn't I liked it better when you just told me like that's one case of like showing versus telling building. The legend was better than like Oh no, you had to show that he's like a badass I okay. 03:50.41 Raúl Yeah, it's better if it didn't happen. 04:09.76 Jala and Dave That didn't really work for me well and then too it kind of um mitigates his his goofiness at the character's goofiness too because the first thing you see him do when you see bed at all is him jumping off a building slicing somebody in half and I mean like. 04:23.68 Raúl Um, yeah, thick. 04:24.17 Jala and Dave You know that's a big impression to have for your first impression whereas the impression in 2017 is he's walking up eating a donughnut and I was so so like it's very fritic to not eat it because he's you know so conscious of his his figure but like you know, whatever he had in his hand he tosses it to 1 of the police dogs. 04:43.18 Jala and Dave In the 2022 version he doesn't eat it. It's kind of like if you ever watch tree take in any of his commercials that is like you know say for example, Ferrera Rochet you know and he's like the roshans love roche and like when he's slowly putting it in his mouth. He's holding it in his mouth and not absolutely not eating it. 04:53.83 Raúl So. Oh I mean if he were ever to actually eat a donut. It would double his body fat. 05:01.53 Jala and Dave Because he's not going to eat that because he's here to Rohan like. 05:10.20 Jala and Dave I know so so anyway so I think that's um, a marked difference too between the 2 versions as well is like you know like the the vibe is very different in that aspect as well. But you're right like I think that's why veta is. You know, very endearing I mean like you're already set up to not like vikram from the beginning because he's sitting there and um, killing people in cold blood. But you know and and doing all this other stuff. That's very corrupt and it's so funny too that Vikram has like a line that he will like oh I will. I will plant evidence and I will shoot one of my partners you know and I will do all this other stuff to set it up to make it look like you know they had a gun and they tried to shoot at me. Um, you know July to the law about everything that just happened but I'm not going to take money from a gangster. 05:59.64 Raúl I would. 06:02.38 Jala and Dave That would be wrong. Okay I mean where well that's a weird line that you got there bro? Yeah yeah, except yes, you did so but good points. Good points. 06:05.49 Raúl Yeah, also I'd never kill an innocent person.