[Show Intro]
Jala
Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! 
Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here!

[Intro music]

00:00.00
Jala
Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place. I'm your host Jala Prendes and today I am joined by my very good friend Simón Sotelo how are you doing to-day Simóne.

00:13.28
Simón
I'm doing pretty Well how about you. Yes, It's ah it's a loaded question right? You're here, you're talking with someone that's something right.

00:21.80
Jala
It? Yes, Yes, yes I am talking to ah one of my very favorite people about a topic that is very important so and definitely looking forward to this discussion of diversity and the next generation. So This topic is kind of an extension of the earlier diversity equity inclusion and belonging episode which was episode number 3 if I'm not Mistaken. So go back and listen to that if you want kind of like a general introduction to the subject matter. But this in particular is talking about kids the next generation. What? all of this has to do with kids why it's important for kids and what the kind of research is behind what outcomes occur depending upon what the parents are trying to do. Actively, um, to kind of cultivate the environment that their children grow up in.

01:23.78
Simón
Yeah, totally and I I hadn't um I hadn't heard of the the book that we're covering today. Um, which is one that you picked out which is called white kids by Margaret Hagerman um and something that I appreciated about it and that is.

01:42.69
Simón
Pointed out in the intro is that it it's I'm not a sociologist but you know like an ethnography or whatever like a social ah a social study of these white families particularly kind of affluent white families. And the different ways that they deal with race across the political spectrum. Um on a lot of different levels but that ah she makes a good point that so much of what we read or hear about in regards to race with media or with academic papers. Is either you know BIPOC right? like black indigenous people of color. Um, affected like how how they cope with the you know the realities of racism in relation. You know to to white people. Um, and.

02:38.15
Simón
Then I'm in studying these white families I'm trying to think of the best way to put this that she doesn't center the whiteness like that's not the Baseline from which other things spring out. Um.

02:56.13
Simón
So yeah I I Just think it It brings an interesting perspective. Ah because certainly in a lot of different social situations. Um white is just kind of like the default and she points out in the book. There's a lot of like normal. Oh yeah, no I've like I've got my black classmate and they're normal like me, you know.

03:13.63
Jala
Ah, yeah, well and in the thing about it too is that because these white affluent children will grow up to be white affluent adults who have you know there there are the people who will be holding.

03:32.40
Jala
The power they will be the ones who will have the influence and capacity to make real changes in the next generation not that you know the people of color would be you know unable to do that but they don't have as many resources. As the affluent white children do so the study being about this particular range of kids is important because they're going to be the politicians. They're going to be like the ceos whether or not you know they are joined by people of color or if it's just all of them. You know and the interesting thing about this book is that it's centered on middle childhood which is I believe None to None age range and yeah and that's because middle childhood is the period in which.

04:18.22
Simón
Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

04:27.30
Jala
Children start to break away from whatever it is that their parents are feeding them. You know, mentally speaking and they start to develop their own personalities and come to their own conclusions about subjects like race and class and things like that and. Because class is tied to racism and you know pretty much intrinsically.. It's a subject where you know it's affluent white children because poor white children. They have a different experience that is somewhat marginalized but the affluent white children. They're the ones with the power they are the ones who. Are not touched by the same issues. So.

05:05.85
Simón
Yeah,, that's that's a great point Jalla because um, yeah, she points out early on that. Um you know, obviously class intersects with race in so many ways you know which can be you know it can be negative right? It can be the steal in my jobs kind of perspective. Um, but of course it can also be. Positive as far as you know identifying with with ah people that are different from you ethnically as as part of the same community. Um, but yeah that this this book in particular does focus on the people that are are kind of you know are not touched by that are not. Ah, where class doesn't intersect with their race in a way that I guess makes it more complex right? like they kind of have the luxury of just um, not having to deal with it on really any level unless they want to.

05:55.20
Jala
They don't have to think about it and and and that's part of the thing that was found in this study was that um, a lot of the parents. Decided that they didn't even want to talk about race with their children because Race wasn't a thing for them. They are so they believe so much in the colorblind ideology that they're like I don't even see race and they don't grapple with race as a topic that needs to be addressed with their children because their children don't. Allegedly, don't have any any need to know anything about that. There's no,, There's no reason to address Inequality Insofar as that is concerned because they think that the and Inequality is not due to race. They just think that it's it's out there because oh they just don't have any ah opportunities because. Their parents didn't try to put them in their best schools and they just don't have money or whatever and I don't know why they don't have enough money. This is the affluent white person. Yeah, so that you know.

06:50.60
Simón
Right? right? Ah, you know reasons. Yeah I I Ah stop me if if I'm ah veering from any structure or anything but I'm just going off of some points you're making. Um, yeah so I think the um. Like what you said about you know the the next generation are of of you know, affluent white kids like they're they're going to be gather people in in boardrooms leading organizations leading ptas you know deciding how they're going to treat their neighbor right? Um, but that.

07:28.17
Simón
Something the author really hammers home is that ah these conventional models of ah she criticizes kind of the term socialization or at least you know puts it in context but the socialization or you know around Race or the racialization. Ah, that traditionally a lot of people thought of it as kind of something that is imparted from the parent to the child you know or maybe then there's ah, some sort of positive influence from a different adult later that it but like you know downloads into that child and now that is that is what they Think. Um, and that of course I I have a small child myself I can tell you kids have their own ideas and will um you know resist or you know, ah, especially like you said this middle childhood period is when they start to get their own awareness and start to have questions that.

08:25.89
Simón
You know, maybe their parents have a stance that you and I would find reasonable but either because of a lack of context or just their own you know instincts. They just don't vibe with it. Um, but that yeah they come up with their own way of interpreting like sure what their parents tell them. What they hear or see from media. But then of course their classmates. You know what's going on at the lunch table. What's going on at the playground. You know what is their wreck Sport league look like on the weekend. What is there. You know a house of worship if they go there. Who's there. What do they talk about.

09:04.69
Simón
All of those things combine and she just put it into words that these power dynamics and the concept of race and the whole kind of structure underlying that in the states is reproduced by children right? It's not.

09:22.28
Jala
Exactly.

09:24.52
Simón
Copy paste like like every generation changes and it morphs and it reacts to you know these big news stories or these big cultural moments or whatever but they they reproduce it and so how do you really make it a difference as you said the next generation.

09:42.67
Simón
We'll do a lot of things. So if you can intervene on that reproduction. It can come out differently right.

09:47.50
Jala
Yeah, for sure for sure and None thing to note is that and the introduction to this book. 1 of the first things that she says is and this is I quote direct from the book sociologists know very little about how the ideas that support racial inequality are actually reproduced. From None generation to the next scholars have offered theories about how this process works but very little empirical evidence has been gathered to support or challenge these theories. They don't know what causes the racial inequality to be reproduced exactly and that's what this study is kind of trying to look for. And by the time as you go through the entire book and you're you're really examining all of the different ways in which the children and are interpreting everything around them like the way that their parents use coded language or the way that their parents directly speak about race. Um, the way that their friends talk about stuff their older siblings talk about stuff what they come to conclusions with when they are in a situation where their teacher is picking on their black friend that kind of a situation and it's really.

11:00.68
Simón
Yeah.

11:05.28
Jala
Interesting like this study was so interesting that when I was doing the D I B episode I was like somebody needs to do a book club with me and you were that person you were that person who was like okay, we'll talk about this book and I'm like yes and.

11:15.23
Simón
Yeah, well I'm I'm honored. Yeah and and I just realized we did talk about you know that it's yeah, the white affluent families and and that it's middle childhood. But um, just to make sure it's clear. So this. Researcher she kind of embedded with these families. You know for I don't know how long but like several years um and yeah, well, how do you do that? You know it's not like she lived with them but she ah basically she would be around for things like you have family dinners or. After school homework time or whatever. But also um, if the kids needed a ride home from practice. She would give them a ride and of course conversations either with you know with her or with their friend in the car would naturally occur and so she could note all of those things and that's.

12:11.80
Simón
That's where it's coming from because as we see in the book. There's a lot of you know her like interviewing or questioning the parents and the kids and of course they know when they're being asked the question by someone who's a researcher who's going to write about it. Um.

12:28.81
Simón
So People respond very differently when it's a hot button issue and they know they feel like oh this is going to be written down I better say it the right Way. Ah, and and what you said earlier about the whole kind of the color blind approach. Um I have a bunch of quotes here somewhere. But basically she says. That on a daily basis. They are constantly constantly talking about race and ah clarifying their ideas about it Even if they don't explicitly discuss it. Um.

12:54.74
Jala
Yes.

13:03.97
Simón
Yeah, or in their mind you know they don't say by the way, let's talk about race but when they have the news on in the background when um, you know any number of things they hear about that kid down the street and some trouble they got in all of those things over and over and over. Um, it does come up and so.

13:23.49
Simón
Yes, there are the families that are kind of the ah the more consciously politically active people. Ah you know that that they watch the news and they've got Npr on in the car and they go to the protest and all that um.

13:33.75
Jala
And and they have their kids you know helping at the homeless shelter and they have their kids um writing letters to senators even some of them and that's really cool that like they're paying that lip service right.

13:43.75
Simón
Right? Yeah, and that you know what that that brings up a great point I Thought that was a really fascinating section. Um about ah yeah, there was There was a woman who Volunteered. Um. And homeless shelter and like I think help provide services through a church or something and you know she talked about? Oh Yeah I take my kids to it and that's important to me that you know the kids would go there and while they're helping the adults with whatever services they needed. They were running around um playing with the kids. Ah. You know that didn't have stable housing right? They were going from some sort of temporary housing through this church or or this nonprofit. Um and the author points out that like.

14:35.57
Simón
These parents are really big on exposure right? Like oh it's important to be around different types of families different types of people different kids. Um, but that there's a ton of potential for confusion because the way a child interprets things with.

14:53.54
Simón
All of the priors that we have is well maybe they're just seeing that you know me and my mom are white and I'm at this place where we're helping a lot of you know, black or brown people and eventually yeah, she even talks about like her kid didn't understand that they.

15:11.24
Simón
Didn't have a place to live until like several years of doing it right? which is kind of natural. Um for a little kid. They just don't have that awareness but that once they did. It's like well is she receiving any kind of clear message about why that is.

15:28.82
Simón
You know what's the the underlying social structure. Well yeah, how does housing occur right? like because people don't just build their homes most of the time. So how does it work. You know while there's rent. Well there's land. Well, there's.

15:43.22
Simón
You know zoning Laws. There's redlining Also. Public schools are tied to property like all that stuff that of course you know you aren't going to lay all of that out in perfect detail to a nine year old but the potential for confusion exists there where it's just. Me and my mom are white and we live in the big house in the nice school district These people I feel really sorry for them. But I mostly just know that you know they're a different race than me and they're struggling and it's nice that we're helping them.

16:10.66
Jala
Um, yeah, yeah, and then that that actually leads into the whole white savior thing you know like they they.

16:17.44
Simón
With.

16:25.64
Jala
Especially when the families that are trying to expose their their kids to various people from different backgrounds and things they they might even consciously put their kids into a school that has a broader. Diversity to it but at the same time they still when their kids are interacting with and actively going to the homeless shelter or the church and helping people there or whatever they're doing. They. Feel like oh yeah, it's really good because we're helping them and that way everything will be better and then they just feel like oh you know it's it's it gets into that dangerous. Oh you know they're victims. Poor them and you know not like really working towards equality. It's like oh I feel good because I'm doing a good thing for these people and I'm the white savior coming to help them on my white horse. You know.

17:22.20
Simón
Yeah, yeah, totally um, and and None 1 thing that the author points out is that um, especially for the families that consider themselves more progressive um are left of center in some way that they all like to talk a lot about. Travel and how important it is to expose people expose their kids pardon me I'm going to start that over again? Um, but they talk about how important it is ah that their children be exposed to to different cultures and to different places where.

17:48.16
Jala
Um, okay.

18:00.25
Simón
You know and I've had this feeling of you go somewhere of where the culture is different from your own, especially if you're there for more than a couple weeks. Um, you really that impression sinks in that like oh I'm I'm the one who's out of place here. That's not just this this novelty that oh look these people are different but ah.

18:19.24
Simón
Course race does not only exist in the United States and thanks to England in the United States ah there we've certainly left a deep ah deep Mark on the world. Ah, and globally you know like the white european.

18:32.40
Jala
And here.

18:39.40
Simón
Race Ah carries a lot of power and privilege and wealth and so they point out ah that one of the families like oh yeah, we went to mozambique and you know I want my kids to see how different people live which hey that sounds pretty noble right? But that. Again, The lack of context being provided means that there's a quote from from this child. Um where you know she's like it's like yeah it was really cool to be there and like the you know the people lived in really different homes. And you know I was the only white kid there and you know ah I was the one who was out of place and it felt different and I didn't you know, totally fit in with the way that they did things and you know something to the effect of. That helped me understand what it might be like for you know, ah a kid of a different race at my school and there's a quote from the author that missing from this of course is an acknowledgement of the tremendous power differences between affluent white tourist from the Us visiting a small village. And growing up as a black child in predominantly white spaces in the Us Um, and you know that they go on to talk about like the whole poverty tourism thing which is kind of a different deal. But um.

19:50.63
Jala
Yeah, different but related. So oh problem.

20:07.22
Simón
Yeah, different but related sorry I just I was looking for my quote. Um, let me see right? But ah yeah, there's just kind of the whole in seeking to ah show. They're kids that you know hey we're all you know we're all people and we should have a common cause they end up othering and reinforcing the differences in a ton of ways.

20:36.43
Jala
And yeah, and that's the thing is is a lot of what I found interesting about this book other than the fact that it's examining all these different ways in which these children come to terms with the concepts of race and how they come to. Create their concepts of race and not only create their own individual concepts of race but also inform their parents their parents' views of race shift as their children inform them and so um, it's interesting to kind of read about. Ah, how all of that works. But in addition to all of that this book is just showing a lot of ways in which you read the lines right? and sometimes maybe you're reading the lines that the parent or the child are ah are saying and thinking. Oh. This kid's got their head on straight or whatever. But then you know the researcher or the author in this case, both Margaret Hagerman comes in and then makes a comment that's ah well all well and good except also this other part that wasn't considered in that thing that you just read you know and and.

21:46.51
Simón
Yes, yes.

21:50.43
Jala
You gain a lot more awareness of all the ways in which you know even your own thoughts as you're going through this and reading through and you're like oh okay, that sounds you know pretty pretty decent that sounds like they're they're getting somewhere. Oh no, Actually yeah, you're right, There is more that could be done. There is more that could be done. It's very eyeopening I think is the way that I'm trying to state it because even if you are actively trying to do better even if you are a person of color who has had experiences in the World. You know in your own childhood and currently and whatever.

22:11.61
Simón
Yeah.

22:27.50
Jala
There are still ways in which there's more yet to consider and this book is very good because it's not a book that is applicable only to the affluent white people that it's studying but also everyone else as well. It's it's a rather. Well-con considerreed well put together. Well-written piece of of research and commentary on where we stand as a society. Ah, also one of the things that was stated about the us and this is of course applicable to other. Um, countries similar is that a particular researcher or Scientist Bonilla Sva referred to this country as a racialized social system and that means that it's a society in which economic. Political social and ideological levels are partially structured by the placement of actors in racial categories or races. It's interesting because this book also actually delves into the concept of what is race specifically because a lot of the people in the study think of race as a physical trait.

23:43.64
Simón
Yeah, yeah.

23:44.72
Jala
Ah, or something like that and it's actually it's more of like a political kind of grouping in a lot of ways it like an invented one that it's out there and it is.

23:52.40
Simón
Yeah, yeah I don't want to get like too lost in the the weeds because it's a deep subject but the um yeah I mean I think the way the author puts it and that I I generally put it is that it's a social construct right? So um, when the children discuss it. There is. Yeah, some confusion over you know is it like genetic phenotypical stuff right? of oh they've got dark skin and you know and honestly I don't think most of them have the awareness to even point out like oh yeah, you know the nose is different or the lips are different like they're just like oh they're dark or they're not um.

24:27.35
Simón
And then some others are like well it's not just that. It's also where they're from like they're from another country. Um, and yeah, so it gets complicated like that. But it is she says this in kind of in brief and to me this is something that I think all the time but that. Like yeah that race social construct that it is is so explicitly encoded into you know the colonies and then the the country that the United States became from the beginning and this this is kind of a ah personal.

25:05.90
Simón
Tangent I guess but um so I'm I'm mexican american that's my background and in the last year I got really into Genealogy um into studying my family's history because you know my dad knew a good amount but there were spots. He didn't know.

25:20.20
Jala
There's always so much more to to uncover your even if you are fairly aware as a family.

25:23.84
Simón
Yeah, yeah, totally and so ah I went Digging. You know turns out I'm I'm really good at researching because all that time I'm a computer I guess but um, pardon me. Ah. Yeah, but in doing that I learned a ton about Mexican history. Some things I kind of vaguely knew but in looking at all these documents you know of of people's their births their baptisms their marriages their deaths. Um, that in all of them not in all of them and most of them. You know there's an explicit racial Category. You know they either. They are Spanish or they are mixed or they are you know mixed African and European or they have like a name for every possible combination like you can be like None this and half this and one quarter that.

26:22.27
Simón
And they've got a name for it. Um, and that you know people that's explicitly recognized as a caste system. You know they call it the costa system. Um, and you know it's kind of striking to read that right? You know like oh wow I was so codified but of course in the United States

26:41.61
Simón
That was the case of course with slavery. Ah, but that yeah, it's like it's not. It's not a surprise that this concept is still around because it's It's been in the groundwater right? like it's It's been there and so um, yeah, like the roots.

27:00.16
Simón
The roots are so deep regardless of what's popping up above the surface like it's still. It's still there and it's going to be there.

27:05.71
Jala
So I Want to actually kind of put a pin in this particular part of it because I want to spend a little bit of time kind of discussing where both of us were in terms of. When we were growing up like what kind of a cultural situation. We were both in because we're both. We were both um people of color but we both had very different situations growing up and I am white passing So I I look.

27:23.16
Simón
So yes, totally.

27:40.73
Jala
You know for all intents and purposes someone looks at me they may or may not know that depending upon what they notice in my features that I have you know Cuban blood that they may or may not know that. Um so I can pass white but when I was growing up.

27:51.63
Simón
And.

28:00.00
Jala
We lived in a diverse neighborhood that had like ah a large minority population and when I was leaving my elementary school I made my own choice about where I wanted to go to middle school. And I mentioned middle school because my high school actually was not anywhere near as formative for me middle school which is middle childhood period really is where I formed most of my opinions about ah all different kinds of ideological ideological things and. So I consciously made the choice to go to a magnet middle school for to go to the Magnet program for Spanish and study more of this language that I knew. Ah, we spoke at home kind of but because my mom doesn't speak Spanish We didn't speak it all the time so it was just kind of in the background all the time and we were always speaking it when we were at the family reunion and apparently it was my first language but then they switched me to English because they didn't want me to be in like the English as a second language class. Um, that kind of a situation so I went to this magnet school but it happened to be in a lower income area and as such there was a very very large. Minority population there. It was very diverse there and I had teachers who represented all of the diversity that was in the student population. So for me, it was so normal to see other people and they are just across the board just a bunch of different cultures. They come from a bunch of different backgrounds. And all of that that even to this day I actually find myself very uncomfortable if I am in a a group a large group of white folks, especially if they are like more on the affluent side I feel very uncomfortable in those situations because that's like danger zone for people of Color. So.

29:55.77
Simón
Um, yeah. Yeah, no, it's It's the the only one yeah getting used to being the the only one and you're like yeah, that's that's weird.

30:03.30
Jala
You know, um. Yeah, yeah, and and so that was my situation growing up and so even to this day. My friendship pool is like a large a large mixture of various people across ah, racial and class And. Ah, genders and sexuality spectrums like they're everywhere religious spectrums like everywhere all of that stuff I tend to talk to everybody So That's that's kind of how it impacted me and that's what I grew up with but your situation. As you have told me is very different the way that you grew up.

30:44.40
Simón
Yeah, yeah, well None off, that's interesting to hear a little more context. Um about you know your upbringing with that. Um, but yeah I So I grew up in a suburb. Um, that is. I Don't know I Guess at this point it's probably more upper-middle class but it was like there was a range from I Guess kind of lower middle class maybe touching working class up through fairly affluent. Um, right next to an extremely affluent neighborhood. But um. You know? Yeah, it was a lot of like fairly modest houses built in the 50 s and stuff. So um, anyway you know a very good school district though right? you can put scare quotes around that if you want but um, you know, very highly ranked that like that's why people move there. That's why people pay.

31:41.28
Simón
Significant taxes you know is ah it's families move in there and the people that move out or people that either never had kids or their kids aren't in the school district anymore. So Why not save some money elsewhere. Um, but yeah, as far as the makeup of that. Um, of that school district and and those neighborhoods extremely white I don't know what the statistics are now I know it's different I know it's more diverse than it was but I remember seeing a statistic in high school like and I don't know the local newspaper or something. Um. But yeah, it was like probably 95% white. Um maybe more um, really really really white and so I like I remember I remember in like None grade or so there was another family that moved in that.

32:23.49
Jala
Yeah.

32:38.94
Simón
You know was us a spanish speaking family you know and there was like oh there's 2 of us now you know like like you know who it is and and you know not not a big place. The whole community is maybe like 5000 people or something like pretty small. Um.

32:41.70
Jala
Um, yeah, yeah.

32:58.51
Simón
But yeah, so that that's the kind of environment I came up in and of course um because the city I'm in really didn't have any sort sort of significant. Um, you know latino population. Um, when my when my parents moved back here. The. My dad got to know you know all the other all the other people around you know in the in the business community and cultural stuff and so of course we had family friends and I'd go to parties and you know you get exposed to the culture. We. We had a good amount of the culture in my house. We went to Mexico a few times when I was a kid.

33:35.73
Simón
All of those things are great, but as far as day to day life which the book points out is like you know it's a huge party of of shaping your reality because that's when things are put into practice. Um, yeah, it was just like super duper Lily white and you know yeah of course there were I had a handful of.

33:45.18
Jala
Yeah.

33:54.98
Simón
Black classmates or you know teammates on my soccer team or whatever you know people have different nationalities and ethnicities. But and this is something that I think people don't always get that. Well it's like ah I think this comes up in the book. But like you know the equality versus equity thing or like the whole like diversity versus people actually being listened to and valued and given power like there's having somebody in the room and then there's having those people.

34:33.53
Simón
Ah, feel like they're being taken seriously and and that they have equal weight and that's a lot easier when they aren't the only one in the room or if it's a room of 100 people there's 2 of them. You know.

34:41.57
Jala
Well, and yeah, and then too when I was trying to do a little bit of research about Well what can teachers For example, do when it comes to their classroom and their student population and that equality is not. Ah, you know equity you know, um that like that's an important thing because equality to define the you know to distinguish the difference between those 2 things equality is. For example in in the classroom setting giving all of the children the same activities materials and books everybody gets the same stuff in the same activities. But when a situation is equitable. That means that you are considering every child's strengths context. And needs and providing all the children with the opportunities that will support them in reaching their potential the way that they are and that's a very individualized thing. It's very different than equality you know equity is it and it is especially if you are a.

35:44.10
Simón
Yeah, and it's I mean it's hard right? like they aren't.

35:50.99
Jala
Um, a teacher who is already not paid enough money and now you know with all the the school shootings and everything like that. You've got that kind of stressor on you and then you've got a class with 50 kids in it. How are you gonna you know, try to make things equitable when you only just have just so much of you to give.

36:07.87
Simón
Yeah I mean and that's that's the thing is is how many millionaires or billionaires have there been that you know throw some insane amount of money at ah, oftentimes like a particular city's you know school system. You know oh everyone's.

36:09.13
Jala
You know.

36:26.90
Simón
Get an ipad and we got classrooms with smartboards and like you know all this stuff. Tons of money. Yeah,, everyone's got books and school supplies and you know the material things are covered. Okay. Or you know, maybe there's even funding for enough teachers So You have smaller class sizes. Okay, whatever. But yeah, that's not that doesn't make it equal because okay what about the homes as kids go to you know? do they have equal access to housing and food.

36:55.23
Jala
Do they?

37:01.40
Simón
Um, you know if you have a parent with a ph d ah, they probably have social connections that give you different opportunities for summer camp or whatever you know they've they've can help you with your homework and guide you in the right way. Ah you know.

37:14.60
Jala
Well and then too if you are in a chaotic household. Your parents are never home because they're always working you've got to take care of like your younger siblings or whatever and you live in a ghetto and there's shootings and stuff every day or something like you know like you don't have ah a.

37:25.70
Simón
Yeah, yeah.

37:32.80
Jala
Peaceful space within which to even think about your homework because your homework is like the least of your worries. You know I mean.

37:36.65
Simón
Oh yeah, and that's I mean that yeah that like really fundamentally just even even the idea of high achievement being at the center of a child's life is very much. Um I mean of course there are immigrant families that center that and stuff but it it. Ah. It is not the same for everyone because if you're worried about you know survival and and getting by um and keeping your head above water then that's just not a concern and of course when people know well things didn't work out for me. They didn't work out for my parents. They didn't work out for my grandparents etc. Yeah, you don't just like magically go Well I know if they get a perfect sat T Score Then everything's going to change right? like it's they they don't have ah the luxury of sitting around and and thinking about it because yeah, they're picking up that extra shift to keep the lights on.

38:18.65
Jala
Living.

38:27.88
Jala
Well and not only that. But it also tracks even more into the weeds into wellness stuff like if you're in a situation that is more chaotic and you know your parents are just trying to make ends meet or maybe you have. You know other other issues going on that gives you a constant level of stress which affects your sleep which affects your ability to concentrate and then two if you don't have access to medical care if you have something like Adhd you will never get a diagnosis because you will never go to the doctor. I mean there's so many different ways in which um, underprivileged people just have so many more challenges and those are all things that people who have money who have access to health care who have you know more peaceful home lives. They don't have to consider those things and.

39:20.30
Simón
Yeah, and that that that comes up in the and the book a ton that ah you know they they talk to these parents about okay well how did you like for a lot of the people that moved into one of the communities covered in the book. The answer of hey how do you end up here because it was a fairly new community like twenty or thirty years

39:23.44
Jala
Yeah.

39:39.96
Simón
Since it started growing. Um the answer was invariably oh the school district. You know I heard about it from a friend or I did my research and there's 1 parent who you know is pretty clearly racist. But when they're discussing the the decision making process.

39:58.92
Simón
You know she talks about this this harrowing incident she had where she was talking to some administrator about. Oh yeah, you're going to sit down on you know, Mr Smith's science class some student came up and like used some curse words and was like oh he's you know such a this or that and she was like oh and it it was just shocking and I could tell. Weren't in control and it felt like the situation could change at any moment and like so much of it like when you talk about ah stable home lives and and stressors and all this stuff wellness so much of the existing school system is built around. Like sure you got to go to class and and learn these things but so much of it is just adding control and structure to things and then teaching people to do that and then punishing them if they don't go along and yeah, like of course kids are going to act out like it's just. You know, even in the microcosm of just raising my own child like you know if if she's particularly you know, grumpy or fussy about something. Um there's usually some kind of underlying thing. You know whether it's lack of rest.

41:14.50
Simón
Or Hunger or something going on in school or whatever you know a lack of stimulation. All of those things influence kids of course and as they get older. Yes, they develop more impulse control and they can think more complexly about okay I don't really want to do this. But maybe it's good for me. But.

41:32.70
Simón
Yeah, it's like so much of it is just built around that kind of control and so when you have those families that go well you know I went to this other school and I was so much more peaceful and the kids were so much more well-behaved and everyone seemed so much happier and nicer and it's like well yeah because all of their material needs are met.

41:49.27
Jala
Um, yeah, yeah.

41:51.92
Simón
Mom and dad are at home and even if they aren't together. They're all you know they probably live well in their separate nice homes and you know ah do all these things. Ah and they aren't worrying about getting by at all. They don't have to make sure.

42:08.49
Simón
You know they walk a certain way when they go down their block So that people know not to mess with them right? like it's just like yeah no wonder it's because he's like they don't have pressures right.

42:11.24
Jala
Yeah, well yeah, and in ah back when I was in middle school. There were a lot of kids look like okay my neighborhood was not the best neighborhood at that time. Um. We had to move at None point because there were people shooting at our house so that's cool. Um, because my dad reported a drug dealer down the street and told the drug dealer he was going to do it that was not a good move dad. Um, anyway, so that's that's the kind of situation I lived in right um. And so yeah, it was a very different kind of thing and it was a stressful situation but I still had both of my parents at home and my home. My home itself had a lot of its own chaos and and issues and everything but I still. Had the privilege of more stability than a lot of my friends and a lot of them were in situations where like they can't afford the food that helps their brain work right? You know they live in a food desert. They do not have access to.

43:16.44
Simón
Yeah.

43:21.92
Jala
Better things like that did I try to help them where I could yes but I I can't offset everything that they need as another small child. You know like there's a larger structural issue here with um how everything is set up and how these folks are underrivilege that needs action.

43:30.49
Simón
Yeah.

43:41.23
Jala
You know? Ah, but then too another thing I wanted to mention and this is something that I saw every single day when I was in my you know very diverse school is that the way in which people um, make requests like the teachers make requests of the students. Makes a difference culture makes a difference for example, white european americans will say something like Johnny can you please put the blocks away and then for a white european american that translates to oh she just told you go put those blocks away right now you know. And that that's not even a question for a white european american but when it comes to african american culture. They use more explicit pointed direct language and they'll say put away the blocks and. The way that you say something like that that african-american child might not know that when you say can you please put the blocks away. You know they might be like well yeah I can but I don't want to so I'm gonna keep playing with them because you didn't tell me to put them away like they might not understand what you're trying to tell them. Do.

44:46.82
Simón
Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of like just kind of social social Cue social differences that people judge on but like what what you said about? ah you know, being in an unsafe environment with shootings and stuff so it.

44:51.89
Jala
Yeah.

45:04.71
Simón
Feels hard to stay on track because of course, everything's so intertwined with housing and all that. But um, yeah, you know so I I guess I'll talk a little bit about say you know I have a child who's in preschool. Um, and of course when we thought Okay, we want to start a family We're living in an apartment.

45:23.66
Simón
Um, it's fine for now. But you know yeah, it was not a neighborhood. You could just walk around in you know and go play ball and there wasn't a yard right? So we're like okay this isn't going to work. We want to be somewhere. Um that feels like it's good. Well.

45:43.35
Simón
We feel good about the schooling Options. You know it's convenient all that stuff and it's really,. It's not a coincidence that there are so many incentives for people who are you know concerned about. Opportunities the safety for their family.. It's not a coincidence that there's so many incentives for them to move to segregated neighborhoods to move to suburbs. Um, you know like it all it's self reinforcing right? like people go to those for.

46:15.18
Jala
Yeah.

46:20.74
Simón
You know for reasons strong reasons they have um and then that they become you know one of that group they identify with with that neighborhood. They identify with those concerns and then you know the cycle continues and then in the book they point out that yeah there are these families that. They choose to be more in the city which is kind of like mine where I'm I'm not in like the Heart. You know I'm not downtown. But um, I'm not in the burbs Either you know I'm in a neighborhood in the city. Um, that they choose to be around a more diverse you know neighborhood. Ah.

46:59.10
Simón
And yeah, like I know we we moved here and there's like a apartment building a couple blocks over where you know there was like a shooting there and then you know the the car get ah to get away was like screeching through the neighborhood and stuff and like obviously nobody wants that right like kids are not nobody wants that.

47:18.93
Simón
Um, but you know there's There's a very high cost that can be paid to achieve never ever thinking about crime or hearing about it. Um, because yeah, the suburb I grew up in. There was no significant crime. You know like I'm sure there were.

47:38.53
Simón
Few you know it's like if there was like some burglary or something that was like oh why? but you know nothing nothing on a daily basis nothing where where people had to worry about their safety and you know well, what's 1 way that that was achieved. Ah.

47:42.93
Jala
Ah.

47:57.30
Simón
A extremely active and overly large police force for a suburb where nothing really happened. Um that again like you know serves to reinforce all that social control and all those norms of you don't need to be committing a crime to be treated with suspicion by.

48:17.57
Simón
Officials by Neighbors. You know there's a lot of just I just I Just don't like the way you know they're they're being loud and it's like well yeah, you know a teenager is going to be loud and throw stuff and push limits because that's what they do, but. Anyway, Um, yeah, so we had to choose a school to send our kid to um, which ah in our Case. Ah, she's at a private Montessori and this.

48:54.25
Simón
The way we chose the school was by. You know, researching a little bit touring a couple places and it's funny. Ah because in the end it was. There was really only None choice for us because um, so I'm mexican. Mexican-american as I said um, my wife is a black woman and you know it's obviously our daughter is of ah mixed race and so it was important to us that she be somewhere that yes classmates that were not just white kids but also. Ah, the staff were not just well-intentioned white people but actually a diverse staff. Um, where they're you know they're putting their their money where their mouth is like not just we think black people are swell but black people are teaching in the class. So.

49:50.80
Simón
When we had those kind of Criteria in place. Yeah, this was the only place where okay there was yes, there's the lunch lady. Okay sure she's a minority but there's also the you know the the teachers and the assistants and the administrators. And that So at all levels there were people of different races and that makes all the difference in the world. Um.

50:16.62
Jala
It does because to insert myself a little bit here just because if you don't have representation of figures of authority who look like you who you know represent where you're coming from then you. Have this very very acute sense of oh I you know I am one you know, lower than this and all the people that are above me are always going to be white or whatever and that's that's a no-go. That's you want the representation there. It's kind of like. You know when Barack Obama became president and everybody you know, um, all of the people of color were like you know the the black kids and everything were like that that somebody who is like me I could be president but they didn't think that they could be president until they saw representation there and.

51:04.36
Simón
Yeah, and then and then all the white people said we did it. We solved race post three still America but ah yeah, no no no I know

51:09.70
Jala
I Yeah yeah, Oh my God No ah, no, not not all of them. Not all of them. There's lots of very nice white people who are awoke but ah yeah, anyway, um, still it was just you know it's It's definitely a thing where it makes a very big difference. Especially when someone is young and growing up and trying to find a role model you know something to look up to like I've talked about it before on a different episode. It's not about race. But um I think it was a performance Identity episode. I was talking about just trying to find a female character who was take charge who didn't defer to a male character in stuff when I was growing up was extremely difficult and it frustrated me because I wanted to see that go get them female character who was the lead who didn't have to. End up with suddenly losing all of her power and having to be saved by a dude and that was very hard to see and that's another thing that like media these days is doing a lot better about that kind of thing. There's more women you know and um in just all different kinds of levels of society.

52:15.78
Jala
At this point and you know yes, there's a long way to go yet. But at least there's more representation now than there was so.

52:21.11
Simón
Yeah, yeah, because it it's really different to here. You know you could be blah blah blah and seeing no people are you know people.

52:30.50
Jala
Yeah, well because then you have you have? It's kind of like ah when you make a vision board if you have an example figure you can put there on that vision board that is a female in power that is a person of color in power a person of color or female in power. You know, like that is very important.

52:43.81
Simón
Um, yeah, yeah, and it doesn't it doesn't have to be a president. It does come down to the teacher you know or the person on the playground or you know that neighbor that looks out for you. All of that matters and ah.

52:49.43
Jala
Representationally for just like no.

53:03.13
Simón
What you said about media just as a little tangent. Um you know I do a lot of ah researching like library books that you know I can I can read to my daughter you know that cover things about her heritage or whatever. Um, and oh my goodness a lot of this stuff is aimed at older kids. But. Yeah, it is Incredible. How much young adult media. There is now that I'm like is stuff that I couldn't imagine being out when we were at the right age to you know, be ordering that from the book fair or whatever but that is so amazing I went to a new library Branch. Ah.

53:40.90
Simón
You know a couple neighborhoods over um and you know I ended up in like the young adult section trying to find a desk to work at and there was just this whole.. Ah you know, like short bookcase that was specifically it was pride Month. You know it was June ah that was like specifically Lgbt. Q Plus young adult fiction and like so I stopped to look at it and I was like oh man, they've got like you know? yeah like multiracial vampire hunter you know Lesbians whatever like just all of these different combinations and I'm like.

54:17.38
Simón
This is cool in it and it wasn't just like you know hey we're doing this token thing or hey it's just about like you know making dough eyes at each other. It was like no these are characters with stories that are in a world and also they happen to you know, have romantic feelings for each other at some point. So yeah, it is ah.

54:36.49
Simón
It doesn't you know that doesn't change ah redlining right? or whatever but it doesn't it matters so much to the ways that ah kids can imagine themselves in the way they can move in the world and the way they relate to others and imagination. Um, you know it it could sound.

54:46.98
Jala
Yeah.

54:55.23
Simón
Corny or Sesame street or whatever. But um, yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, um, yeah, imagining being able to imagine and expand your idea of of what's possible even in a fantasy world. Ah, really.

54:58.26
Jala
Sesame Street Also by a black person. So.

55:10.77
Jala
Yeah, oh yeah, well yeah I can't speak for everyone. So I'm not going to try to project out there. But for me when I was in my middle childhood.

55:14.38
Simón
Can impact what you see as possible here.

55:25.85
Jala
Every single thing that I read every little like goofy story or every show that I watched I would always like in my head insert myself in there and either insert myself in there and think about you know how I would interact with those characters because that was fun or. Insert myself in there and think about if I was in that character's Shoes. What would I do? How would I feel and that was a lot of how I explored what my opinions and my ideas and my ideology and all of that was was in. Reflecting myself into media and back out again.

01:06:06.50
Jala
So circling back to the topic of just kids in general and diversity of course Media. What? what? you expose your kids to when it comes to media is important. If you show them things that ah include people of different backgrounds and and not just stuff from your own culture that makes a big big difference but primarily when it comes to just how children internalize. Race and diversity and all of that Overall when they're exposed to a broader range of people of different backgrounds and cultures that gives them more. Comfort You know like a greater comfort level when it comes to interacting in their life as they become an adult with those populations and with these people from different situations and so that's another reason why it's very important to make that effort to. Ah, give children the opportunity to experience stuff that's outside of what they might have at home. You know.

01:07:23.96
Simón
Yeah, yeah, absolutely I mean so much of it is. We are ah as complex as things are and we still come down to like Well how how comfortable do I feel you know do I feel I can relax am I self-conscious.

01:07:42.80
Simón
Is that person looking at me like that you know all those things are when you're around a good mixture of people then you have more situations in which you feel fairly comfortable. So I think that makes perfect sense right.

01:07:52.95
Jala
Well part of well part of it too and this is something that we were talking about in the green room ah is that a lot of these parents in the study done in the white kids book would. Expose their kids to various people in different situations and maybe they they you? you brought up the situation of like mentoring the black kid and having them over and considering them part of the family but you know are they going to interact with. That black family. Are they going to go to their the black family's house spend time with them in their own neighborhood over there. You know are they? yeah, are they going to actually invite these folks into their home because I mentioned um diversity.

01:08:38.51
Simón
Yeah, yeah.

01:08:50.80
Jala
And how it's important to show kids stuff that's outside of their home. Well actually really I need to put an asterisks and be like no and also you need to include that in your home as well. You need to have that kind of um.

01:09:02.49
Simón
Yes, It's not just the world outside and and it it reproduces some kind of paternalistic ah views as Well. Where I mean I'm trying to put make sure I say this correctly. Um. Of Yeah of okay you know the I guess kind of the white savior kind of thing right of like oh yeah, we have the privilege and the resources and we want to use them to help somebody and all that stuff nothing inherently wrong with that? Um, but yeah, reproducing this dynamic of oh well now he is part of our our family. He's. Close to us and whatever but it doesn't go both Ways. It's not a meeting of equals and it goes back to you know? ah people having housekeepers or wet nurses or you know enslaved people if you go back? further.

01:10:00.13
Simón
Um, where yeah there would be these weird like parafamilial relationships I'm not saying anything like that's going on with this kid in the book but that it is a dynamic that can that can occur. Ah, if you aren't thinking about it that it's like you know? Oh yeah, it's a.

01:10:18.29
Simón
Kid with a good heart and we're gonna give him this chance and um, yeah, like who who comes in your house and where you actually take your kids and where you choose to live and all those things it does send a message to the children about what your priorities are.

01:10:37.30
Simón
And um, yeah I think I think that can't be overlooked and and we kind of to circle back to the um the example about like the soup kitchen or or the ah the services for the families who didn't have housing. Um. You can give kids exposure but they're going to draw their own if if they aren't given any kind of explanation or context to understand you know the structure behind what led to this they are going.

01:11:10.10
Simón
You know humans are pattern-making machines right? like they're going to. They're going to figure it out. They're going to come up with their own their own version that makes sense either the sort of things they hear from their classmates or from their teachers or what they saw on Tv or piecing together some things their parents said but they're going to just come up with. Their version of why that is um and yeah, like they aren't necessarily going to understand ah what leads a kid to you know to need some help with their schooling or. To need a place that's a more stable home environment right? Like yeah.

01:11:47.24
Jala
Um, well and another thing to recognize that I have not stated at this point. Is that there are a lot of people who live in say the midwest and they don't really have very much diversity just kind of generally in the midwest um, so it can be challenging to even put their kids in a more diverse space because there isn't much diversity to be had because. Largely the area that they live in may be you know one? That's just overwhelmingly white. So um, if that is the situation. There are still like festivals that happen. There are organizations that will be there for the the None black people that live in the city. Um, you know like.

01:12:34.80
Simón
Yeah.

01:12:37.50
Jala
And well whatever, there's going to be opportunities for you to reach out and actually make connections with different people and you know be able to interact with them in their own space and then also you know to invite them into your own.. It's just a matter of it becomes more. Ah work under the water if you will for the duck in the pond you know the the duck in the pond is got a lot going on under the water but they look graceful from the top you know so that might be a little bit more footwork than somebody lives in a large Urban area but it is entirely possible because diversity is everywhere. It's just a matter of looking for it seeing it and recognizing it.

01:13:19.31
Simón
Yeah, yeah, and I that's that's an important ah bit of context there because yeah I'm I'm in a you know, mid-sized city that is you know has ah a very strong ah black historical and cultural background. It's about 50% African-american You know, give or take a few percentage. Um, so it's you know, diverse in that way. But it's also very very segregated and I think sometimes people's hair stands up a little bit when they hear segregated but like yeah people.

01:13:58.27
Simón
Different races aren't really in the same neighborhoods. What do you call that you know, um, housing segregation. But yeah, it's true I Mean yeah if you're out. Ah if you're somewhere That's more rural you know or or you are in a burb you know like I'm not trying to demonize people that are.

01:14:17.50
Simón
You know they moved to the suburb because that's they wanted to be near Grandma and grandpa and you know they got a good school district and whatever. Um, those are perfectly understandable things like like we said there's a lot of incentives ah to motivate people to to.

01:14:36.50
Simón
Live in those situations. But yeah, it's I mean I I think ah a good faith effort is always appreciated. Um and you can figure out the best way to do that for yourself. Ah, but you know.

01:14:50.60
Simón
More more people trying to be thoughtful and considerate and how they live is is I'm not going to turn that down.

01:14:54.67
Jala
Oh yeah, for sure and there is a friend of mine who lives in a more rural area and she is latina but she married a jamaican man. And their children are in this school that is almost all white because everybody is almost all white in that city and I happen to know her because she knows my sister who is in the same place and. You know? So. It's like that the None people of color like oh she's latina I've got to go hang out with her because she's like the only other one you know that kind of a situation and she is extremely active in her pta and her daughter this year her oldest daughter.

01:15:30.88
Simón
So yeah, yeah.

01:15:41.74
Jala
Just recently formed the black student union for the handful of folks that there are in that school and that kind of a thing. So I mean it's It's hard, but there are people everywhere like that that is just to say even in this rural area. There are some folks. And it's just a matter of being aware and doing what you can do you know whatever that looks like for you like we can spout out any number of you know, Ideally, you would be able to do this and that but what you have the bandwidth for what you have the resources for and all of that. You know every every single parent just wants to do what they can that is best for their kid. Whatever you know within their means that they have you know capacity to facilitate and that's actually a point that kind of leads into something from the book again When. You are a parent you Want. What is best for your kids and so these white affluent children from this white kids study. Also you know like their their parents want them to have the best of everything and when you are a white affluent person who is of the. Demographic that holds power and you are wanting your child to be above everybody else's children because that's what they deserve and that's whatever because those are your kids then you are by default marginalizing Everyone else's kids because. You want your kids to do the best. They are the white affluent children. Anybody who's a person of color and less well off is is shunted to the side by default by that.

01:17:27.15
Simón
Yeah I I think it. Ah anyone who knows me knows I probably bring this up a lot but it's definitely a very individualistic view because also I think these people generally don't you know these white adults these white affluent adults. They don't generally see themselves as part of a group. They're just people they're you know they are quote unquote normal and they're just acting in their best interest. Um, and you know there are a bunch of quotes from the parents about like oh well, you know the.

01:18:02.75
Simón
Other races or other neighborhoods like they don't they just don't value education in the same way by which they mean they didn't take their family and move into a $300000 house in this neighborhood you know and then get involved in the pta and whatever which of course that comes with a ton of privilege and.

01:18:06.48
Jala
Yeah, yeah.

01:18:22.53
Simón
You know from free time to money to cultural capital. All that stuff. But um, yeah I I think there is more of a sense for anyone who is part of a disenfranchised group or a minority group that like yeah, we're we need to work together. Um, and so yeah, there all there are quotes from those parents like oh I'd welcome more Diversity. You know if we're all on the same page if they have the same Priorities. You know so like yeah if they're if they're a lawyer and you know they want their kid to go to the same college as mine and whatever they're cool.

01:18:49.27
Jala
And well.

01:19:00.85
Simón
Um, instead of you know more of my view which is well no, everyone needs to get a really good opportunity period that they don't need to be someone I want to hang out with to still deserve that.

01:19:12.21
Jala
Yeah, and one of the quotes from the book was specifically um that some of the parents that were asked about this kept on insisting that it wasn't a race issue. It was a. Class issue. She would be you know this this particular parent would be friends with other parents but due to class divides. They just live different lives and so because they live. But yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much.

01:19:34.45
Simón
Well let's let's rip off that Scooby Doo Mask who's under there that was race all along.

01:19:44.15
Jala
And I mean a lot of the parents in this study just felt like oh they don't value education because if they did then they would have been in the pta and they would have been actively doing this and that for their their kids not even thinking because they don't have to grapple with it. About maybe they don't have the time off the money The um, physical energy to do some of these things. Oh My God like there's so many you know they're working overtime every single day and if they don't have a car or something How are they going to go and do some of these things that they're.

01:20:08.27
Simón
Oh my God yeah.

01:20:16.97
Simón
Yeah I mean on on a like anecdotal level. Ah I mean we've had our child in school for 1 year and you know the school is big on parent involvement which I think is a good thing. But yeah, ah you know i.

01:20:35.98
Simón
I don't have any sort of like you know disability or something like meop sorry that majorly impacts my ability to you know, go to a meeting or whatever but just being like okay so I have to like get up every day I got to get my kid dressed in into school I got to go do a job and come home and like. Cook dinner or keep my kid occupied or clean up or whatever and then it's like oh and seven o'clock time for a Zoom meeting about you know a fundraising event for an hour like even that is like ah ah, much less like an actual you know.

01:21:13.81
Simón
Get to the government building for a city council or school council. You know school board meeting like all of those things require like sure willpower but just yeah, just effort that if if you're if you've got other stuff going on. It's really easy for it to fall to the people who have the most time which are who has time as time is money is the people with money right? where where they haven't they didn't already bust their backs for 10 hours that day. So like yeah, they're ready to go. Um.

01:21:37.97
Jala
Yeah, yeah.

01:21:49.16
Simón
So yeah, it it all it all ties together if it feels like I'm I'm bouncing around like a bouncy ball. It's because all of these keep intersecting right.

01:21:57.81
Jala
Well and the thing is too is that if you have more money you can also hire somebody to take care of your kid for a little while or put your kid in an extra curricula and have ah someone drive them to and from or send them via uber or something. You can do all of that because you have the funding to do all of that you know, um, one of the things that was mentioned is that ah even people who have the priorities of working to Confront Inequality still reproduce that inequality.

01:22:19.20
Simón
Totally.

01:22:33.18
Jala
That they're seeking to disrupt with their own children because for example, they might put their kid in a school with all the other kids you know like all the diverse population of children and have that kid be really active and you know in ah confronting. Racial issues and you know taking part in protests or whatever but then they will also supplement their daughter's education with giving her tutoring in private music lessons Summer programs trips and vacations to expose her to different stuff. Lots of private opportunities. That aren't available to other students and you know this in reality just contradicts this intention of supporting equal educational opportunities for everybody. You know.

01:23:21.70
Simón
Yeah, yeah, and it's not that those opportunities shouldn't exist. It's that yeah it needs it needs to be able to scale up right? like um, you know an example would be ah yesterday. Um, as part of my work I was at an event for ah, a.

01:23:41.21
Simón
Like children's classical music summer program. You know bunch of cute kids and yes of different races. Ah you know playing playing some songs they learned and you know it's very cute, very sweet but of course not everyone has access to that. Um, but then there's another organization in in my city.

01:23:59.48
Simón
Was started by someone I knew um where you know yeah they were they were in a mostly working class immigrant neighborhood. Um and using something called the lsstema model if anyone wants to look it up. Um, started in Brazil ah to.

01:24:17.83
Simón
Give opportunities for the children to come. You know, be able to play and practice on an instrument and perform you know public performances for their community and all this stuff. Um for free which is awesome.

01:24:34.78
Simón
But like that is a specialized nonprofit that has you know staff working around the clock to make that sort of thing possible instead of being you know, just the way things are structured. It's just something that people get to do and I think that's.

01:24:53.85
Simón
That's what so much of it comes down to is you know you you hear all of the meritocracy bootstrap kind of arguments. You know about? well it is possible I know someone who did you know and like okay yeah, but you shouldn't have to you know, go through hell.

01:25:13.12
Simón
To make something happen. You know someone should be able to just come into an opportunity choose to take it and have a great outcome because that's what happens for None of people every day. It's just not for everyone.

01:25:14.40
Jala
Um, yeah.

01:25:25.78
Jala
Um, well and it's just going back to the example of something like Barack Obama so there is this issue with exceptionalism when it comes to. You know any race because at this point you've got a lot of folks who are then like oh well look at Barack Obama he's black and he became the president. So why can't this black family blah blah blah and then that ends up putting like this whole expectation on. People who don't have the same opportunities. You know that they they should be able to do more because this person over here did this or whatever and like there's there's just and that's that's due in large part to that kind of issue of.

01:26:09.99
Simón
Yeah.

01:26:20.49
Jala
Demic Blindness really to a lot of the inequalities and the factors that lead to those inequalities and they're because of how our system is set up. It's reinforcing generation after generation. The same inequalities taking place. So.

01:26:40.38
Simón
Yes, yeah, the the authors use of the word reproduction that you know these things are reproduced each generation in new forms and new ways with new wrinkles. It just really made an impression on me. 

01:26:56.38
Simón
Because yeah, it's it's not just you know some unbroken chain that is handed down. It's all of the things all of these things manifest in new ways and um, you know what you were saying about about opportunity and kind of the the systemic things. There's ah a Martin Luther King Jr Quote that um. Sticks with me I think about it you know every month in some way but its philanthropy is commendable but it must not cause the philanthropist to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice which make philanthropy necessary and that's with all of those opportunities. It's like hey your kid got to go.

01:27:34.71
Simón
Skiing like awesome that sounds great. Ah you know, but like to go to my my classical music example um you know it's great that that organization works hard to make sure kids that wouldn't usually have access to that kind of Arts education. They get it. That's awesome.

01:27:52.86
Simón
Why is it or why is there an organization that has to make that happen. Why is there an organization in my city that tire tirelessly advocates for people experiencing homelessness and they do a great job. But why are they fighting an uphill battle constantly for decades.

01:28:11.26
Simón
You know, like all of those things are you yeah are your your magnet schools or you know the kid who transfers in or gets a scholarship or whatever. That's great. Why do they need some special intervention for that to happen and I'm not saying you know.

01:28:28.63
Simón
Joe Schmo who is just like yeah I'm just trying to get my kid to elementary school. Um I don't think they you know they have the keys and shame on them for not fixing it all but the awareness of that is just I I feel like. That's a concept that if you really let that seep in and get get down into the roots get down into the groundwater of the way you think it has really far-reaching implications for how you can view all of this and I think that's something that this book really highlights that even people that. Are to use your duck example right? like they're sure flapping their wings a lot and quacking and they're making they're doing a lot of stuff and in in good faith. They're doing a lot of stuff but it's very obvious at least like to me as a person of color so much of what's in the book is like. Incredibly recognizable. It's things I I could have told most people you know like yes I see this every day. Um, but there's a lot of people that consciously and verbally are trying to enact these principles.

01:29:45.92
Simón
Varying degrees of success but a lot of the ways in which they do that It seems clear that it has not. It has not made its way all you know all the way down to the route to the core of the way they think.

01:30:01.63
Jala
Um, well and to to talk about So you're a parent and you want what's best for your kid. You also have these ideals which say that your kid should be equal to and the opportunities your kid receives.

01:30:04.13
Simón
That makes sense.

01:30:20.78
Jala
Should be the same as those opportunities of everyone else's kids but that would require you to put every child. Not just your child on that same pedestal and that means to truly enact that. Kind of level of social Justice. You would have to level the playing field for your own kid and not give your kid the best of everything because you would be need need to put your energies and funds and everything into lifting up the you know Baseline for everyone.

01:30:58.40
Simón
Yeah, yeah.

01:31:00.90
Jala
And that goes against a parent's inner drive to do? What is absolutely best for their children at the end of the day and so that's where it's like every parent has to kind of come to grips with this and grapple with this and figure out. Where they stand and what they are willing to do and not do you know and it's it's tough because like if you happen to be born as you know, even just like a a white person. Not even a rich white person just a white person.

01:31:35.74
Jala
You still carry more privileges Even if you're a homeless white person than a black homeless person. You know, um and grappling with that and trying to come up with like what what resonates with you with how you stand on everything is just.. It's Tricky. There's not like an easy answer regardless of of the race or beliefs of you know any parent like where you stand on it and what you do for your child child is going to land somewhere in there and you're going to do the best that you can and as. Parents That's really like you just have to do the best that you can and part of what I feel that looks like and here's me like the person who doesn't have a child trying to talk about this please correct me Simóne. Um, but. Feel that every parent needs to be doing that internal diversity equity inclusion belonging work internal to them looking at their own internal biases their own coded language their own ways of grappling with all of this. They need to do that internal work and actually look at themselves. They need to look at their kid and try to produce for that kid as as diverse a space as they can so that that kid has that exposure on all levels in all ways you know, um. To the best of your ability and really just there's there's a lot that goes into it that requires you to see yourself in a way that is probably uncomfortable for you. You know if you are a a white affluent person or a white. Person in general having to look at yourself and try to figure out and say oh God There's this thing that I say that I just now realized is actually really racist and I didn't know that until just now you know like that passes on to your kids your kids hear what you say. They also see what you do and you can say everything that you want you can have all the beautiful platitudes. But if your actions speak differently. They will know and they will see it and they will be influenced by that to some degree.

01:33:57.78
Simón
Yeah, no those those are great points Jalla and you know I I don't want to be prescriptive in in the specifics of anything I tell to people. But yeah I do think that um parenthood.

01:34:15.37
Simón
And and needing to think about your child's future. Definitely even though I was aware of many social issues it it really gives you some insight to be in a situation where it's not a hypothetical.. It's not well. Obviously you know. Put your kid in the public school and do this and that ah you know you really have to think about it because as I've said it a few times this episode but so much of our society is structured to incentivize like yes fly you know fly to the suburbs. Get the big House. You know, get away from any possible danger. Um, and and give your kid that that life that you want to give them um because that sense of community is so eroded by all these different pressures and.

01:35:11.46
Simón
Um, yeah, progress not perfection like no one. No one knows everything you know I'm yeah I like I might know a lot about race and have studied it a lot I assure you there are lots of things that I. You know there are different privileges I have where I've had to go out of my way to educate myself and I've put my foot in my mouth. But um, yeah, the the fundamental environment that you bring your kid up in which really comes down to where you live in a lot of cases right? it's.

01:35:47.53
Simón
What school district are they going to be in who are their neighbors who are who are the kids at their school. Um, all of those things you need to think long and hard before you make your choices because um. Yeah, there are there are a lot of incentives to if you want the best ah to go kind of go along with the status quo. Um, and it's really different when it's your child. You know like that's.

01:36:23.41
Simón
Because when you're an adult you can think hey I can make an informed decision and and choose to make a tradeoff um but it takes I think it takes some real conviction to you know stand your ground if it's something that affects.

01:36:42.70
Simón
Ah, the future of your child. So I think it's important to think about it and to be ah to make sure you know what you're doing and another thing that this book really drove home was just how there's exposure there's exposure to a situation. There's exposure to hearing. You know news media or or learning something in school and then and in the absence of some kind of good explanation or or probing discussion or whatever that makes a kid think they're just they're going to fill in the blanks.

01:37:16.14
Jala
Yeah.

01:37:18.11
Simón
And I'm sure we all can think of examples where we had some incident that happened or we learned about something difficult at school and maybe adults didn't want to or know how to talk about it and it kind of just got filed away. You know in your mind and then as an adult you're like oh wait. Um, huh. That's what happened you know or you you read some article and you're like oh my god that's None times worse than I realized because I didn't have the context I didn't have the framework to put that in. So I think that you know it's just realized that I think.

01:37:45.52
Jala
Oh yeah.

01:37:55.62
Simón
No one's perfect. You aren't going to make perfect decisions but I do think we all have an obligation to do the best that we can um so and especially you know if you have a child if you have people that you're the caretaker for if.

01:38:15.45
Simón
You have a medical condition like there's so many complicating factors that impact what we personally are capable of or what's reasonable for us. But I think we all know when if we're being honest with ourselves. We know when we are.

01:38:34.64
Simón
Doing our best and so that's that's what we need to individually focus on and acknowledge the structural issues that we cannot solve as individuals but that we can make progress towards by building community and building power.

01:38:54.30
Simón
That applies pressure to those institutions.

01:38:54.58
Jala
And so something that I was thinking about is that even if you are in a situation where you are not presented with very much diversity in the space in which you live um, and maybe you are. Ah, as is the case currently with current situations with inflation at everything being the way it is. It could be that you are locked into living in a place that isn't diverse and there are still ways in which you can broach the subject matter and still expose your kids to this. Exposing them to stuff in the news stuff that's going on talking actively about different aspects of injustice and society and all of these topics and just actively talking to them and then. You know as part of that conversation. What are action steps that can be taken to do you know something about this, you know in in having those discussions helps to really fill in those blanks for those kids so they know they know very clearly. What the situation is without having to wonder because None thing that that study was very clear about is that most of the parents in that book in the the white kids' book refused to speak about race at all. They refused to speak about injustices and class differences. And things like that they didn't talk about it with their kids and that's what led their kids to have that big opening to really go. Okay, well I don't know exactly what's going on nobody is you know, actively discussing it with me. So. I'm just going to talk about it with my friends or come up with my own idea in my own head by myself and.

01:40:40.78
Simón
Yeah, yeah, they're they're at Jimmy's house and Jimmy's dad will talk about it at length. Um, yeah I I mean I think that the sorry I lost my train of thought there let me take a second. Yeah so i.

01:41:00.38
Simón
Something to be aware of and it's in the age of social media and Youtube and all that this goes a none times more but there is an explanation a carefully crafted reason or explanation that can excuse. Ah. Pretty much any anything to do with inequality whether it's racism economic issues. You know legislation ah some historical event like someone has crafted a reason that that it's okay or actually it's good.

01:41:38.75
Simón
And I'm not saying that the none grader in the lunchroom necessarily has access to that. But so many of those things just kind of trickle down you know from wherever they they come from adults or am radio or what have you or or in the case of the book. You know like having Fox News on you know around the house or whatever. Those so many of those things become quote unquote common sense. That's just in It's just in their environment and so um, you know I have a small child like did I talk to her about you know.

01:42:15.84
Simón
Preschool shootings. No, what's that going to do other than terrify her like that's not helpful. But for this middle childhood age where not only are they capable of recognizing these things they they are wondering you know like the in the same way that ah you know.

01:42:16.17
Jala
Yeah, yeah.

01:42:32.91
Simón
Some people are like sex education should not be a thing. It's like it's not like ah kids just aren't going to have questions about that at some point right? like you reach a age where you start noticing these things and inevitably you're going to come to some sort of conclusion about it. You're going to integrate it into your life in some way.

01:42:38.82
Jala
Yeah, yeah.

01:42:51.46
Simón
So don't leave a vacuum that doesn't mean prescribing what you think you know a a child with who learned ah about some concept a month ago if they're having a conversation with you on the way to soccer practice. They might say something that you know. Triggers your ah your Twitter instinct you know to be like here's 50 ways that's wrong. Um, but there has to be room to to learn and to grow and to recognize you know what? that actually would make perfect sense if I had you know, just a very ah elementary education in. And this topic. So yeah, you know progress not perfection. That's that's what I say just make sure that you're being honest with yourself. Um, about you know what? you are and aren't doing and if you need to make some changes make them. But at the end of the day.

01:43:33.86
Jala
In here.

01:43:49.24
Simón
You need to be able to look yourself in the eye. But I think any parent out there can relate that ah you really need to be able to look your kid in the eye too. You know because I think ah most of us that that's the person we hold in the highest esteem and I would never.

01:44:06.98
Simón
Want to do anything that would make me feel like I'm falling short when she's an adult and can put words to those things you know? yeah.

01:44:12.55
Jala
For sure and I I just would like to say too as someone who was a little precocious kid at None time something that I valued about my relationship with my parents was the fact that I would go to them and. I would talk to them and they would really listen to what I was saying and discuss things with me as they came up so listening also to your kid. You know? yes your kid you've had them since they were in diapers and you know like. You think of them always as your baby no matter what? um, but like as they grow and change and they develop and become you know closer and closer to adulthood. You know they are going to have their individual thoughts and feelings and whatnot and a lot of times. In actively listening to what your kid's saying you will find out more of what's going on in their head and what they're grappling with and what maybe you need to? yeah provide them more information on or something you know and and it's not like I'm saying oh the people listening to this Don't do that but like I know a lot of people. Who when I tell them about how my parents were with me and how they were very receptive to things that I said and you know when I was exploring different ways of expressing myself. They would support my endeavors to go out there and try to draw and go do this or that you know like they. They supported whatever I was exploring and that's not actually like as much as I feel it should be kind of ah a more universal in an ideal world. A more universal thing. That's not always the case so you know just just yeah because like the kids are.

01:45:55.67
Simón
Yeah, totally.

01:46:03.83
Jala
Very insightful in a lot of ways because they don't have all the baggage that we adults do so sometimes they will expose a truth to you? How oftentimes many times. Kids are very very good at that. Um, that maybe you're not seeing so you know they they will. Say stuff that will kind of enlighten you too about your situation without you realizing it and I can say that because I have a niece and a nephew I do interact with Children. So.

01:46:24.73
Simón
Yeah, yeah, um, sure yeah and ah, ah yeah, and this this might be I guess kind of ah a wrap up sort of comment but something my.

01:46:42.30
Simón
My wife has said a lot of times. Um in different interactions with people and it's like we say it kind of None jokingly but that um yeah, like yeah kids are little people. They're just young. Um obviously a baby is a baby and has a really limited.

01:47:00.68
Simón
Way of interacting with the world right? But um, yeah, a lot of things are like what if you just treated your child like a person that you know wonders and wants to make sense and wants to do good just like anybody else which I think the listenership of this show. Ah.

01:47:18.97
Simón
Probably are all very thoughtful people. But yeah, like ah this it all it all goes back to the same thing that if we have a status quo that's maintained. It's because the younger generation is reproducing it and if it's firmly entrenched. It's not.

01:47:37.64
Simón
Going to go away by just a little chip in the concrete here and there it's going to require significant effort and significant kind of correction against whatever that problem is so yeah I mean I'm not I'm not going to sing the you know I believe the children are the future right? They know those.

01:47:57.20
Simón
Corny old songs or whatever. But um, but yeah I mean it's it's you know the the old timers with the old time views. They inevitably pass out of public life and and you know pass out of life as a whole. Um, So if something remains when they're gone. You know who's who's keeping it there and what? what do you want this next generation to carry into the Future. So.

01:48:21.59
Jala
Exactly and so I felt that this was a very important topic to bring to the podcast. No matter what? but also especially in our current environment with a lot of the progressive stuff that's been rolled back and. You know the kind of um I don't know just straight up trash fire that a lot of the news seems to be kind of across the board for everybody in the world right now. Um, this topic. Although it is a big challenging topic is also an important topic to ah, give folks something.

01:48:46.54
Simón
Yeah, oh yeah.

01:49:00.26
Jala
To look past all of this you know to the future and see okay well yes, we need to be active now and you feel like you're pushing against an inescapable tide. You know that is much larger than you and you are but None little spec on the beach but you do have an impact. And even if like me you don't have kids you know people who have kids you have nieces and nephews possibly. You know there are ways in which you can interact with society with people who do have children with actual children. You know things like that that are important in all. That contributes to what's going forward as time keeps on inevitably rolling towards the future. So it's it's something that I think about a lot just because I try to be forward thinking. As much as possible while also being present in the here and now and it gives me some kind of feeling of hope it's interesting. This book actually gave me some bits of hope because some of these affluent white children who were in these situations. Came to their own conclusions about race that would be considered like woke you know they ah they want to make a difference in the world as they continue to get older and become more and more influential on the world around them.

01:50:21.60
Simón
Ah.

01:50:35.13
Jala
And they have informed their parents' views over time in and the conclusion chapter of this book. Um, you know because at the conclusion the the researcher followed up with these kids 4 years after they've concluded the. Initial study and she was just kind of keeping tabs to see what happened with their ideology as they grew grew up and yeah, it was actually kind of hopeful that even without the parents doing a whole heck of a lot or with the parents only sort of kind of doing something. Some of those kids did end up coming to some conclusions that are more inclusive and more aware of the injustices and wanting to take action against those injustices. So. In either case, um, we'll just wrap this up by saying you know they are the world. Okay, yeah I did it I did it I said the corny line. Okay, so all right? Thank everybody all of the listeners. For listening to this episode of Jellichan's place yes thank you? Nice listeners. You guys are absolutely wonderful now where Simón can people locate you if they would like to chit chat or if you do not have any kind of at.

01:52:59.31
Simón
Ah yes I don't I don't have much of a public presence but I would just encourage everyone um to look into their their own local area. You know, look into um. You know there are statistics and reports and stuff on things like schooling and housing I'm sure there's someone's got a group going for all these issues and wherever you are um and you know I don't know if you do have a kid or you have skills that. You know kids might benefit from whether like I mean we got a lot of nerds listening right? like there are lots of people that ah you know they know a lot about dungeons and dragons or something and they go run games for Junior high kits like whatever just realize that there is opportunity that you might not be aware of if you don't really know much about like Well how did my community come to be. Why is this the good neighborhood. Why is that the you know quote unquote Bad neighborhood. Um, do yourself a favor. Do Do your your neighbor your fellow human a favor and ah just try to find that out. So. Kind of just general advice. But um, yeah I come from like the Diy hardcore and Punk World. So um, there's something worth doing around you and maybe you're the one who needs to get it started but ah yeah, make it happen.

01:54:26.00
Jala
Awesome! Awesome! Of course mine is super simple. You can find me anywhere I am to be found at jalachan in every place including jalachan.place! Until next time everyone thank you so much and remember to smile.

[Show Outro]
Jala
Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me at jalachan in places on the net!

[Outro Music]

[End Chat]
Jala
Gandhi didn’t say “be the change you wish to see in the world.” The actual words were:
“We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do.”

The translation is of course the mantra of every topical episode of this podcast thus far: do the internal work, that is the starting place of all positive changes. This is also the guiding principle of my work as a wellness coach. One of my mentors, Billy Blanks – yes, THAT Billy Blanks – said these words after a session he led at trainer bootcamp: “Change the mind and the body will follow.” This was in reference to making a difference in your physical health of course, but it applies as well to any good you seek to do. He also said that the body is like your car, it needs fuel. And just like you don’t put bad gas in your car and expect it to run smoothly you can’t feed your body with negativity and expect it to flourish.

Whether you’re a parent, teacher, aunt or uncle, or friend or neighbor to someone who has kids you already hold some degree of influence. In doing your best to grow and change within yourself you can work outward toward a better future. You’re doing great; keep going.