[Show Intro] Jala Hey, thanks for coming! I'm glad you're here. Come on in! Everyone's out on the patio right now. Looks like a couple of people are in the garden. I can't wait to introduce you! Can I get you anything? [turned away] Hey folks, our new guest is here! [Intro music] 00:00.00 Jala Hello world and welcome to Jala-chan's Place! I'm your host Jala Prendes and today I am joined by Raul and Antonio how are you both doing today. Let me start with Raul how are you doing. 00:14.80 Raul I'm here I'm alive and I've got a chance to do better than yesterday. That's about all I can ask for. 00:20.56 Jala Oh my god you already started it on such a great note I love it. So ah Antonio how about you. 00:30.90 Antonio Redgrave I um I don't know if I can beat Raul there I mean that sounds like it covereds just about everything but you know I'm I'm having a decent weekend. It's been a busy past six weeks and you know things are moving as they are. 00:41.21 Jala Awesome! Awesome! Well I went to the gym I went and got a coffee and a food and jumped in the shower and here I am so I don't know how I am yet I haven't stopped long enough to think about it so we will go from here today. We're going to be talking about. What it's like to be a first -generation american so we'll start this conversation out by defining what I'm talking about because there's 2 different ways that people think about this the less common way that people think about it is as an immigrant. Who undergoes the naturalization process and is therefore ah, switching from 1 nationality to american the other and more common way of discussing a first generation american is the child of said naturalized immigrant and for the purposes of this show. We are going to be talking about. What it's like to be a child of naturalized immigrants. So um, you know we were born here in america 1 or more of our parents. You know one or or both of the parents came from somewhere else. So that's what we are talking about today. 01:55.24 Jala So ah, to start it out. My father came from Cuba he was born in Havana and he came over here to the us and um, that's a fun story I will tell it later but just for the purposes of this I have 1 immigrant parent. My father. So Raul how about you. 02:15.44 Raul Both of my parents are cuban they were born in Cuba near Havana but not in Havana and they came via really interesting stories which we're probably not going to get into. 02:31.74 Jala Oh I think we're probably going to have to talk about the interesting stories of our parents immigrating because it's just neat anyway. So ah, how about you Tony. 02:44.74 Antonio Redgrave I ah well um, you know it's ah it's a bit mixed mine. Ah my ah maternal grandparents from ah eastern europe were prisoners of war during world war two for different reasons. My ah grandmother was taken away from her. Farm home to a concentration camp when she was a teenager and my grandfather was a a soldier who you know was captured and I don't know that many of the details beyond that except that they met in Germany and then came to America when the war was over. 03:17.62 Antonio Redgrave Um, meanwhile my ah and you know that was of course like in the you know 40 s but meanwhile my ah dad's family came um, they came much later they came in the 70 s from the Middle East also up to New York and you know he had a large family so they kind of. Came in groups of 2 or 3 until all of them were over here. 03:38.37 Jala And I guess I should kind of circle back around. So my mom ah she was born here in the states but um and so were my grandparents on her side but my great grandparents on my mother's side both came from their respective countries one was from Norway and 1 from germany so like my family. Although they had a couple of generations here on my mom's side that they are also not like you know, Merck and back just you know, whatever her independence or whatever, not that kind of a situation we are are pretty new ah to the Us as well. But it seems like we're we're the old old old blood old family or whatever at this point comparatively. so so yeah um did you have anything else to add about that Tony or. 04:28.21 Antonio Redgrave I um well I mean I mean I guess I can elaborate on you know I I guess I didn't mention that my ah, it's interesting because my maternal grandparents came over largely for opportunity like you know, post the war because they kind of felt like. My my minimal understanding that I only kind of know like secondhand through my own parents is that they were. They felt kind of like pushed out of their own countries for 1 reason or another you know, quite literally in some cases like you know with my grandmother being taken away to a camp. But um, then with my ah. Dad's family I think it was just more of like a general like you know opportunity thing like he just really went to move to America make a you know makeaway for his family and all that. Yeah. 05:09.37 Jala Well so I do not know why my mom's family came over here I'm assuming opportunities. We still have family in both of the respective countries that my mother's family originates from so I think it's just they they came over here for opportunity reasons. My dad came over to the us during operation bedroan ah because of Castro's rise to power so political reasons and that's kind of like a fun story. Um I'll just mention it in brief so he was eight years old when they emmirated over here. And the Catholic Church was partnered up with the Us government to make this happen and they deposited because my dad is 1 of 8 children and they could not bring the entire family at one time so they brought my dad who was one of the younger kids and some of the older kids together in the first wave. And they were taken to a dutch convent where the people who were in the convent did not speak english or spanish and of course the kids did not speak english or Dutch. So there was like ah you know a lack of communication completely for a little bit there when they were at the convent. But that was in the middle of Nebraska in the cornfields of Nebraska so when my dad was growing up. They just that all of the the rest of the family came over eventually and they all just kind of settled in Nebraska because that's where they were put and so they were raised in the cornfields in Nebraska so my dad was like. 06:46.70 Jala You know he played guitar all of my family on that side is very musical and so he was playing guitar and singing and stuff but he'd be singing like bluegrass songs and things like that because that's that's the culture he was deposited into there wasn't exactly a whole lot of latin people in Nebraska at the time that he was. Coming up so that's his weird story about ah, having come over here. So Raul how about your parents. Why did your parents come here and you know what What's the the deal with what happened there. 07:18.81 Raul Well, ah, my mom came over in 1971 with something called the pointe I do which is ah the airbridge and i'm. Kind of embarrassed because I did not know this until I asked her this for the podcast but um, basically she had an uncle that was in the United States and he ah the was the word for it. 07:49.51 Raul He Re that a reclama was what I wrote but I can't translate that right and but he yeah he he brought over. 07:58.86 Jala Um, so he was trying to get her to come over yet to to reunite the family. Yes. 08:08.29 Raul Yes, he he was bringing them over and they had to apply for a visa and wait for 2 years and while you're applying for the visa you've basically outed yourself as an anti communist. 08:25.84 Raul Over there so they were forced to work at camps in the country for two months on two weeks off for about 2 years before it was their turn to come over and they flew over and she began her life here as a teenager my dad on the other hand. 08:45.14 Raul Came over a little bit older and he actually got caught trying to escape from Cuba and was put in prison for six months then he got out of prison and immediately attempted to leave again this time he. 09:03.62 Raul And a group of his friends basically hijacked the boat and drove it to Mexico and from there they crossed the rio grande to get into the United States where thanks to the ah cuban adjustment act. They were legal immigrants despite crossing the Rio Grande. 09:22.12 Jala Yeah, and that's something that we'll talk about a little bit later when we talk more experiential side but the prioritization that Cubans have as you know like among Latin folks. 09:41.86 Jala Ah, is something that definitely plays a part in in like ah personal identity. Let's let's say that and we'll we'll get to that. So did you have anything ah further to add about that. 09:54.33 Raul Um, I Just like thinking that technically my dad's a pirate. 09:58.20 Jala Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm I'm glad that both of them made it over here. Okay, it sounds like yeah your mom had a pretty rough situation too dealing with being in the camps and everything. 10:11.41 Raul And it was her and both of her parents. So I mean they they had to work for it. Unfortunately. 10:18.70 Jala Um, yeah, see um when operation pedro pan happened that they were just like right when Castro was coming to power. You know he was like if you want to leave leave and people did and that was part of that wave and so. Um, you know my dad and his family got out like immediately they they immediately were like okay we're out or we're gone. So um, but there was definitely like a struggle for boats like there was just no, there were no spots on boats for people and that kind of a thing. So if the Catholic Church had not. Gone to um, you know, lift people out of there if you will um my dad's family probably would have had a lot harder time trying to come over. so um so yeah political reasons was it was it political or opportunities that your parents were coming over bubble. 11:12.85 Raul I Think for my mom It was more because her parents were coming because she was young enough that I don't think she really had political views but for my dad it was definitely political. 11:16.93 Jala Mm. A choice. Yeah yeah. 11:29.57 Raul He's told stories about how like on the day that they found out about the revolution. My grandfather gathered him and his family together and said basically we we don't support this and ah they went from there. 11:46.19 Jala Yeah, yeah, So ah, generally speaking Why do people immigrate to the us. There are a bunch of different factors. We've already talked about a few opportunity being pushed out ah political stuff push and pull are basically the 2 ways that. This kind of thing is talked about push factors of course poverty labor standards war political people being put in a concentration camp will do it. Environment. You know, especially now with all the natural disasters and stuff people are forced to immigrate because they don't have a choice like their home is gone. It's. Gone you know, ah poll factors include of course better work Opportunities Greater security access to Health care and education such as it is in the Us. So um, yeah, talking about. Why immigrants come over and all of that actually leads into kind of like the success rates of immigrants when they come over here and 20% of all business. Owners are naturalized immigrants but naturalized immigrants are only 13% of the total Population. So. All of the trials and tribulations that they have trying to come over to the Us and become naturalized citizens are so dramatic in most cases that that pretty much develops in them. A sense of what Americans like to call Grit. It's the you know like American grit and. 13:17.63 Jala So when they come over. They want you know they came over for opportunity or they came over because they have nothing else. They have to succeed. They don't have a choice so that pushes them to work harder and their work ethic is much stronger. Then someone who's been here all along who you know has grown up around the corner. Everybody wants to talk someone go Tony go. 13:46.53 Antonio Redgrave And um, yeah I Just um I I find I find it I find the ah what when I you mentioning the bit about a naturalized immigrants as business owners was something that. It was a little bit surprising to me but it shouldn't have been in retrospect you know like that does make sense. Um I will say that in my ah in my ah grandparents case there was no ah business ownership involved but there was definitely a lot of that great involved because like my. My ah grandfather on my mother's side he was he ended up becoming a foreman he had like a hard construction job that he worked basically his entire life And yeah, my my mom loves to wax on about the fact that like he mowed the lawn the day before he died like that you know that's her Big. Point of pride in him was that he literally never stopped working even when he was retird in some way and then meanwhile there is my dad's side which was ah it was a little more bit more complicated because my grand my paternal grandfather his ah my dad's father. He. 14:53.82 Antonio Redgrave Worked really to get all 10 of his kids over to America in groups of like 2 or 3 and unfortunately he had cancer and he never saw the day. Basically he ended up dying by the time they were all there and so. That was a scenario where all of a sudden like all these sons had to like actually put in the grit to take care of mom take care of the family step up where dad wasn't in what I can only imagine was a much more traditionalist culture in that way. 15:23.95 Jala Gotcha gotcha. 15:27.55 Raul That was a great anecdote about your grandfather that actually like it says so much about them. Um, but I think it's part part of it is not so much that they they come here and they absorb. 15:45.18 Raul You know some American quality of grit I think. 15:46.86 Jala Yeah I didn't mean that they were absorbing equality I'm saying that they develop within themselves something that americans would call grit not that they are inheriting anything from the US by way of coming here. 16:03.45 Raul But but I think that particular statistic of how many are business owners I think it's explained more by who would immigrate you like everybody is extraordinary. But. Immigrants are extraordinarily bold in that they're they're willing to take risks. They're despite how bad things are in your home Country. It's your home. It's the only thing you've ever known and to be willing to uproot everything. 16:39.62 Raul And just go someplace where you don't even speak the language that takes a very bold person. Ah a risk taker and that's the type of person that would start a business. So I think that might be that might explain. 16:51.13 Jala Yeah, absolutely. 16:57.78 Raul A lot of it at. 16:59.40 Jala Yeah, like um, that's kind of what I was trying to say is is that you know like they inherently within them by the virtue of the fact that they immigrated here have that quality that americans would call grit. They have. Um, that kind of stick-toitedness or um determination that risk-taking the way that you say in order to come over here and start fresh for 1 or another reason either because they have no choice or because. They have elected to do this in order to have the opportunity to build that business to do you know to see if they can make or break you know. 17:42.59 Raul I All I apologize I misunderstood you earlier. 17:45.64 Jala No, no, no, no, it's a very very good point. Absolutely one way or the other and that is you know part of what I feel especially with current political climate when it comes to immigrants I feel like a lot of people don't understand about. Immigrants as a population. So um, as a result of their parents being immigrants and having these qualities children of immigrants tend to do better scholastically and with school engagement. Um. I don't know about you folks. But when I was growing up. Um, thank god I liked school because I was pushed at it real hard and you know pushed to succeed. There wasn't a choice in that you know what I'm saying um, Tony. 18:41.21 Antonio Redgrave Um, my my experience with this was a bit interesting because I was you know as a kid I was very much one of those I was very much that depressing millennial stereotype of a quote gifted kid who just. Blazed ahead of everyone in terms of school and then I hit like puberty and then just kind of like fell off a cliff in terms of being a student right? and and it's in the and is going to define a lot of my responses when it comes to you know these ideas of. 19:16.00 Antonio Redgrave Immigrants pushing their children in certain ways because of you know this being the only way you have to succeed you have to you know, push yourself forward to succeed in America whereas my my experience is kind of like a second hand version of that where it's like you know when we grew up we were. Was you know we were fairly well off, you know we have a fairly comfortable upper upper middle class lifestyle that we live like there is no real actual direct drive that we have to like do or die to succeed but because my parents parents you know. You know, raise them with that mentality. They kind of also pushed it down onto us as well. So like you know my mom's parents. Yeah, and you know might have you know pushed on her like the need to succeed as an immigrant. But then that kind of gets passed on to me as well. Even though it becomes. I imagine less and less relevant as generations go on assuming that the family continues to be successful. 20:17.82 Jala Yeah, and when I was growing up. My dad had started his own business. He was a remodeling contractor and had his own business and my mom um was a stay at home mom but she also did help with like accounting and some some stuff. It came to the business but by and large she was a child caretaker and you know homemaker and all of that and so um, as a result you know Ah we we lived pretty decently at times but then depending upon how business was and like at one point. Um. My dad decided that he wanted to move the whole family to go restart the business in another state in Florida with one of my uncles and when we did that that just like wrecked like we had a pretty pretty decent. Comfortable. You know not like super well off, but like. Comfortable middle class somewhere in the middle class. Um kind of ah you know, upbringing up until about the time I was 8 and then we moved to Florida and then that was when we didn't have a roof over our heads. We lived in a ghetto we had. All these different situations we you know we might have had a house but no electricity and no furniture. But you know all these different situations because and over in Florida the clientele is very different and trying to start a like move and start a whole new like start a business from scratch is a very very hard thing to do to begin with anyway, it was a big. 21:46.17 Jala To do and um, that made things rough from the time that I was a preteen through um, most of my teenhood until I hit high school um at which point we moved back to Texas and then my dad instead of trying to restart the business. Again, went into ironworkers union and you know was just working with a union from there and you know we just kind of survived after that and it was pretty It had some rocks and everything but you know we were fairly stable at that point again, but there was this whole unstable. Period in my childhood more or less though we didn't have to worry about poverty per se and that's partially just because my dad um you know doing a remodeling business doing like a trade contract and having like an established business. Um. Provided enough money for us to to be okay, you know so Raul. 22:48.37 Raul It's ah it sounds like the move to Florida was part of the downside of being the child of a bold person. Um mut. 22:54.49 Jala Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, my dad decided he wanted to move over there and restart the business and that that was not the right move at that time you don't always win every one of them. You know. 23:08.48 Raul Ah, um, my father also ran his own business. He was also a tradesman um and he was He was pretty successful. We were in. 23:25.68 Raul Miami and we never moved anywhere and had to restart so we were middle class for my whole life pretty much. Um I just I my mom stayed home while I was ah when I was younger and she. 23:45.80 Raul As I got older. She started working then my parents got divorced and she lived on her own. My dad lived on his own and they were both making enough money to purchase their own homes so they were they were doing pretty well. 24:03.52 Jala Yeah, yeah, so um I guess I didn't mention that when we moved to Florida my mom stopped being a homemaker and had to start working and then she worked until she retired from there when we got back to Texas when my dad joined the union. Ah my mom still was working in order to keep us. At the you know like the same quality of life. You know at that point. So um, but yeah, first generation americans and I feel if you are a naturalized immigrant like a first generation in that way that you came over from somewhere else. At an early enough age I still feel this applies to those folks ah tend to be more upwardly mobile which is to say um, my dad's family when they came over. There were 8 children. You know that my grandparents were running and like working so many different jobs and like the older kids had to help pay you know, pay household stuff and pay for food because there was they had to work and they had to help take care of the family because there were just so many people in the house and. That kind of a situation but my dad being one of the younger ones had the opportunity to be raised for the most part here in the states and that made him more likely to you know succeed at his endeavors and some of his brothers and sisters some of my aunts and uncles. 25:28.66 Jala Became like lawyers and psychiatrist and neurologist and things like that. Um, so you know like a lot of the younger kids and even some of the older ones went on to you know, really succeed over here and again that's partially because Cubans. Had that preferential treatment when they were coming over here. You know during all of the different government operations and stuff. So ah. 26:00.75 Raul And's something my family did was as as I was growing up. We had a room in our house which was essentially a halfway house. So as as members of the family. Slowly came over from Cuba they would stay with us for several months you know they'd find a job find a place have have a chance to get on their feet and it was kind of like a ah, a social safety net for for the family. 26:33.96 Raul You know and over time like my I have so many family members I Legitimately do not even know I've had people walk up to me and say oh hey your Ex's kid and I'll have no idea who they are but they're my cousin. 26:51.17 Raul And they stayed in my house when I was a kid. 26:55.25 Jala Yeah, yeah, so ah, Tony you had something else to add. 26:58.87 Antonio Redgrave I I just wanted to see I feel Raul on having so much family I think I think last I this was years ago. So it's definitely higher now. But I remember like doing the math on like how many. Just to my dads had the family alone like how many cousins I have and how many uncles and everything etc I think I had something like 40 cousins and that was just the ones I knew about like who are in America basically and you know within the immediate. My dad's immediate family and it's just I'm kind of a. I'm far away in non contact with most of them for reasons I think we'll become clear as we get to more relevant topics but I can definitely imagine if I was like anywhere near by I definitely relate to you know, seeing family that I literally don't know and having her both oh you're so and so's kid. Oh. You're the cousin I'm like oh yeah I suppose I am let me pretend let me hug you and pretend I know you and hope you fall for it. 27:58.33 Jala Yeah, yeah, so with my family I my my family awaitha really kept everybody together as much as possible and as a result my family never went on any kind of family vacation. All we ever did was go see my dad's family. That's all we ever did ever was go see my dad's family every time anybody had time off, we went to go see my dad's family and that was like every year all the time I don't even know my mom's side of the family for the most part because we never got to see them. We never got to visit them I don't know where they live I don't know who they are. Ah, there's some folks that I know only by virtue of they came to see my grandparents on my mother's side who did live um in Houston as well. So that's the only way that I knew anybody on my mom's side of the family because we were just always always always with my dad's family and um. 28:53.11 Jala As a result that's something that ah we will go into a little bit later but because of that we grew up understanding that. Ah, we like you know my mom and my sister and I played second fiddle to the family that my dad came over from Cuba. With we were always second fiddle. We were not the priority. The priority was the family that he came over here with so um, another thing that we already kind of touched on when I was talking about. Um my dad moving us over to Miami. My dad wanted to do that because I do have a certain amount of family that live in Miami and so my dad was like oh I can work with my brother and we can also be around a few of the other people in the family and be closer to my family and all of that by moving over there and doing that. Well most of the time when people are immigrating to the us they are doing that for opportunities. Yes for themselves but also for their children and they are more likely to move where their children will have the best opportunities now my dad did try to make sure that we were in. Ah, good ah school district or something and tried to keep us closer to the cities in part because that's where the work. The remodeling work was but also because of you know, just making sure that we had access to some of those um, better schools and and better education and opportunities. 30:28.48 Raul Do I'm sorry, do you feel that your time in Miami helped you sort of get more in touch with your cuban side or or was it kind of like does it feel like a waste to you. 30:43.75 Jala It was weird because when I lived in Miami I'm sure we will all kind of discuss this I am not cuban enough for the cubans I am not latin enough for the latin x folks. I am not wide enough for the white people and and it's not like I get excluded necessarily but there's a lot of times where somebody's talking about a thing and then like there are there are certainly times where I've been flatly excluded but um, also. By and large like you know everybody's talking. Everybody's doing whatever and then like I forget my ethnicity for a minute and then I get reminded that I have oh yeah, you have this ethnicity that doesn't line up 100% with what everybody else in the group is like and the synthesis is. 31:30.97 Jala Suddenly you don't relate to this topic that they're talking about suddenly you don't know this word that they said um, you don't have this experience that they've had and so you don't belong and um I had that a lot when I was in Miami from other people who were cuban. And other people who were latin x of various types because there's so many different types of latin folks over in Miami but I also experienced that here when I came and there's a bunch of mexican folks here and I'm not Mexican and so like couldn't. You know, ah jive with them and I so actually stopped speaking spanish when I came back to Texas after having been in Miami because the spanish that I was speaking did not translate well to you know mexican spanish it's very different. So I just stopped talking and so I lost my accent. And I I cannot speak with an accent anymore I don't have a hispanic accent accent most at the time and so on. But also when I was on the level and I'm still on the level. But like when I was on it regularly, especially when I first was on the show. All of the folks on the level. Are midwestern white folks who were in the same so you know even the same college together and they've been friends for a very long time and you know like they have shared experiences and shared you know, um, cultural inputs that I lack and so there are a lot of times where. 32:58.87 Jala I was on the show and someone would assume something about like assume a cultural input that I didn't have because my experience was vastly different or assume an emotional response to something that I didn't have because again like my interpretation. My worldview that I'm bringing to the same material. 33:18.30 Raul They might assume that you've seen friends. 33:18.34 Jala Is very different. They might assume that I've seen friends or that I've seen Malcolm in the middle or like I don't what I a Seinfeld I don't know I don't watch that I've never have like that's white people Tv I'm sorry I didn't watch that growing up. You know like I lived in the ghetto I wasn't watching. Seinfeld in the ghetto sorry Tony. 33:41.67 Antonio Redgrave This is kind of a pedestrian question but when you say that Mexican Spanish was very different from your Spanish didn't translate is that how much of that is literal versus just kind of like a. Different dialects of English sort of thing like is is it like American versus British English or is it a lot more than that. 33:58.54 Jala Well. Well Cubans Okay Cubans speak really really fast and they like to put every word through the slaughterhouse. So like what comes out the other side there isn't much on the other side and so people who you know are not accustomed to how Cubans speak. 34:20.13 Jala Do not understand very well what they are saying they are too fast. They are chopping things up um, mexicans speak a lot slower They also have a lot of different words for things like they're they're slaying and like the incorporation of their indigenous languages with their own spanish is you know like it. It leads in different directions. So Raul you had something to add. 34:40.46 Raul Ah, yeah, a way I like to describe it is that there there are really dozens of Spanish languages Every country has its own Spanish language with its own little words here and there to the point where if if you knew it well enough you could identify someone's country just from. 34:57.81 Jala Oh yeah, absolutely when I was in Miami man. Absolutely, you could tell and god forbid. You accidentally said the wrong thing you would just get like no, it's a lot of pride for home countries in in Miami. 34:58.69 Raul Talking to them and. 35:12.81 Raul Yes, for for ah for me. So ah, my wife is from a different country and for them the words for right now and in a little bit are reversed from Cubans so that caused some. 35:13.58 Antonio Redgrave So so wait. So what you're saying oh sorry sorry. 35:28.67 Raul Pretty fun misunderstandings early on and to give you a frame of reference cuban spanish could be compared to someone speaking Cajun in english. 35:37.65 Jala Yes, yes, good way to put it. 35:42.98 Antonio Redgrave I was about to say that it sounds less like ah american english versus british english and more like american english versus ah Scots or. 35:48.55 Jala Yeah, or like jamaican patois or something. It's it's a different like you can pick out some stuff and it may or may not actually mean the thing that you think it means so. So yeah, like ah that's kind of actually what made me stop speaking spanish so I actually kind of disconnected in a lot of ways from ways in which I was kind of embodying that cuban and then of course the cuban food. We used to have the cuban food all the time. We lived right down the street from the pan. Yeah, and like you know we go there all the time and get fresh cuban bread and all this other stuff and of course you come here and there's like 1 cuban restaurant and there's like well and and and now that I'm vegan. It makes it even harder because I have to cook everything at home if I want it to be vegan cuban food. 36:35.27 Jala There's like um, a couple of vegan festivals food festivals that come by where there is like a vegan Cuban place that comes to town sometimes so I definitely go to that food festival and get the vegan food when I can and then I judge it really hard. 36:53.45 Raul Um I ah down here. Um I should specify I live in Miami I'm not sure if I've said that earlier but down here. Coffee is cuban coffee if you want. 37:08.00 Raul Ah, drip coffee you would ask for american coffee and I found out that it's not referred to as american coffee. The first time I went to New York and I asked for american coffee and the person looked at me like I was insane. 37:21.88 Jala Yeah,, they're like an Americano you mean like yeah yeah for sure and that's one of the things that my dad loves to do whenever anybody's around especially if it's a little kid if it's a little kid. He wants to give them Cuban coffee so much and it's like. This kid is not going to want this really bitter strong like and they always make a face and he's always like you know? oh you don't like it.. He's so sad because you know like hey you how he was growing Up. You know everybody including the little kids had coffee not like a lot but they had some coffee so you know he's just like what do you mean? you. Ah, like it all so Sad. So sad. 37:59.49 Raul Here I can't believe this little kid doesn't like cocaine. 38:04.39 Jala Yeah, but that's really and and he and I would just be like ah you know don't poppy. Don't like he this little kid does not want this? No no, no, no, just let him try it. Oh. My god anyway, different different note different story. So anyway, what are some of the challenges about being a first generation american there are so many to talk about god so we're going to camp out a little bit so immigrant guilt. 38:28.34 Raul Successive. 38:28.35 Antonio Redgrave O Lord I. 38:34.35 Jala Our parents sacrificed everything to start fresh and give the next generation opportunities now granted in my case, it was like my my dad didn't really have a choice. He was a younger child in a family that fled Castro's rise to power and that was like political they probably would have been um I say they probably they would have stayed in Cuba. If it weren't for the fact that the coup happened and all of that. So um, anyway, the pressures that we face as children of immigrants here are greater. Um, because if we fail we're not just failing for us. We're failing for like. The generations of forefathers in in the home country and like all of this stuff at least? Um, definitely. That's how it feels with my family now I know everybody's got a little bit of a different experience with this I I definitely had this whole like if you fail and then not only that because you have this like weight. Of carrying all of the family for generations on your back. You also end up never feeling adequate and maybe that's because like my dad flat out telling me you know like you know that's not good enough. That's not right. That's whatever my dad will tell me this. Incessantly I've never been good enough for him or it could just be in your own head. You are super self critical and you just never never feel up to snuff because your parents succeeded despite all the odds or something Tony. 40:05.68 Antonio Redgrave I my ah experience with this with this is a little bit. Ah it was a little bit curious because I I don't think I mentioned this earlier this is something that's going to be more relevant later on I think but in my in. On my ah mother's side of the family. You know the the side of the family that that fled from war to America they never regained touch with any of their family members right? So my mom's entire side of the family was literally just her immediate family and my and. When it comes to my dad's family. My dad's family has a lot in touch with like their extended family out in the Middle East etc I did not have that because I kind of grew up isolated from them. So I kind of lacked this so there was kind of this lack of the direct dynamic where you have like. Generations of the family on your back because literally the only family as far as I was concerned was my immediate family and then a couple aunts uncles and that was that right? Um, whereas you know I still I still got hit with the kind of like immigrant and guilt of like. Look how much I sacrificed for you that was something I like got un ironically directly told over and over and over again even to this day but it but like what I mentioned earlier. It's kind of like a secondhand past on thing where my parents parents told them that and so they tell me that and. 41:33.70 Antonio Redgrave Not to not to minimize how much work they actually put into like you know building this family taking care of us and all but there is a part of me that's kind of like no no, no, no, no your parents sacrificed so much for you. They were the ones who like who uproot and moved to an entire new country with no money to speak of. 41:53.62 Antonio Redgrave And built a life for you'all, they sacrificed for you' Allll reaped the benefits of that and had a pretty decent upper middle class living like I again I don't mean that like in a disrespectful way, but it is just kind of like and what la'saka twisted like you sacrificed as much as the average parent did you didn't like sacrifice something. 42:12.36 Jala Yeah, what? Yeah what? what? you're saying basically is like don't take credit for something that you didn't do. 42:13.62 Antonio Redgrave More than is considered normal for an American upbringing is the way I see it? Yeah right. 42:22.55 Antonio Redgrave It is very on brand for me to spend a million words reinventing a concept that exists in like 2 words. So yes. 42:28.62 Jala Hey I do it all the time and I've been podcasting for 8 years so Raul you had something to add. 42:36.30 Raul I I wish I could do that? Um, it was a little different for me because it wasn't so much a we sacrifice so much for you as a look. How lucky you are that you're not there. 42:53.58 Raul I guess to give a little bit more context context I'm about the most privileged you could possibly be as a first generation immigrant because I'm I'm a cis hat male who can pastor white as long as I keep my mouth shut and. I grew up in in the only place in the world where I don't even have to identify myself like everybody just assumes that I'm cuban-american um I I even had representation on Tv because I watched I love Lucy growing up. 43:22.20 Jala Written. Yeah, yeah, and I started to interrupt but I just wanted to say when I lived in Miami I when I got here I came back here I missed it because there wasn't anybody like me here. So. 43:45.73 Raul Well sorry to hear that. Um, but yeah, so it was just a like and the the thing is they were they were right I am lucky that I didn't grow up in Cuba I am lucky that I grew up where I did. 43:46.50 Jala Continue. Yeah. 44:04.71 Raul Um, and the the thing is we we bloom where we're where we're planted. Um I may not be the same person had I grown up elsewhere. But. 44:19.26 Raul Even then we still had the the pressure um of like you you have to do well in school. You have to go to college. We're not going to help you in any way to get to college but you have to go and as I went to college I was I got a partial scholarship and I was paying my own way and. 44:38.65 Raul I had to fight with my mom all the time because she wanted me to be either a doctor or a lawyer and the only thing those 2 jobs have in common is they make money. Um, it's it's not like she she said you know you have the qualities of a doctor and possibly a lawyer. 44:57.96 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah, my dad wrote like I went to school and I have a degree in fine art painting and I was a gallery represented artist and commission artist for a number of years but um. 44:58.67 Raul It's like you you need to do this so that you can make money. 45:14.60 Jala I Find that the certain working artist requirements kind of burn me out creatively creatively speaking. So um I decided that I didn't want to just keep struggling at that because it's very hard to make um you know like an even. 45:33.86 Jala Regular income doing that unless you work in a gallery or as a restoration person or as an educator or something along those lines. So um, but my dad fought me the whole time didn't want me to pursue anything that I wanted to pursue even when I was said. You know, thinking about other majors What he wanted me to do was business because he's like well business will make money you can do business and blah blah blah And yep, yep, Oh I know I know so but um, yeah. 45:57.48 Raul Now that that's the purpose of an education to make money he said sarcastically. 46:10.64 Jala So ah Tony did you have anything to add about that. 46:15.80 Antonio Redgrave Yeah, um I do relate to the idea of like you have to go to basically all the valley you have to go to college you um you know where like my my the financial help I got was a little bit tricky because. It kind of started with the insistence that I had to go to a community college and that didn't work out and then a few years later I was basically told I was like 21 I was told hey um, you go to college or we're kicking you out of the house is basically what I was told and i. Didn't have any resources I kind of live in a you know the concept of a food desert right? Well I live in like literally just like a life desert like you know like there's there's there's nowhere to live nowhere affordable to live. There are no jobs near here if you don't have a car you're screwed. There's no. 47:07.44 Antonio Redgrave Public transportation to speak of like it is literally just a either if you live here God help you you better have parents who you know will give you basically everything you need to be an adult because he ain't building it yourself right? and so you know and so you know I was told. 47:20.29 Raul Or be willing to move. 47:25.99 Antonio Redgrave Go to college or we're kicking you out and look we will help you pay for it and I was like well this is a non-choice. Okay, so you know I I went with it and then like a year passes and it goes well you know at a proper university and I get told. Oh yeah, we're we're not paying for that anymore. And in fact, you're pulling out and going to community college again and I was just like no like I I just flatly refuse and that was the first of many times I moved out I was like no I'm just not no I this is this is bullshit I'm not doing that and. And then you know the same thing ral said also about about like the you know the emphasis on like only money mattering for a life career. There are so many things I've wanted to do growing up I'm an artistic type right? Every single one of those things shut down because it doesn't make money. So you know I sympathize with you. That's not a. It's not a good feeling. It's the it's the we 0 sum game where where these parents probably unintentionally pretend that there is nothing worth doing unless it involves making money. It's the same reason why. You'll be engaging in a hobby they disapprove of and then one of them will walk in and then say well. Why are you doing that when you could be doing a second job or something to that effect. 48:41.20 Jala Oh yeah, that that was like my life growing up any time I spent time doing anything other than whatever it was that my parents specifically my dad thought you know was the thing I needed to be doing at that time. God save me. Ah. Definitely so I ended up as a result of this you know drive this insane work ethic. Ah, that was basically drilled into me since I was little. It ended up making me super super type a to the point that i. Was working like 3 jobs and learning a language and working out every day and maintaining a social life of some sort and still seeing my family sometimes and a bunch of other things and I was just like going going and going constantly I did not sleep much that was when I like took naps in between things and. Even when I was going to college I worked the full time the entire time I was in college to help pay for the college. My parents let me stay at the house while I did that but I was paying for my college and I you know got scholarship. Um, but I still had a lot of other expenses and the scholarship only basically helped with some of it for like the first year and then after that it was kind of like okay well loans here we go you know, but um, in either case I yeah. 50:04.46 Jala Had to deal with that and I had that work ethic that was so detrimental to my health that I was just getting run into the ground and it's lasted until like I am forty years old now. It's only within the last five ish years that I've actually worked diligently to undo the type a in my brain. And let myself have time to relax and do something that is not production because that's the thing is that these immigrant parents are you know here and they buy into the capitalist mindset right? where. If you're not making money. You're not doing anything worthwhile if you are not productive if you're not doing something that can you know benefit the economy then you know what you're doing is not worth the time that it's taking you to do. Why are you sleeping when you could be making money. Why are you doing this when you could be producing this thing that you can sell and everything it's like every time I ever did anything oh you're painting this thing. Are you going to be selling that are you going to be doing this and turning everything into you know materials for the capitalist Engine. So I've been working really hard to kind of undo capitalist brain Tony. 51:24.38 Antonio Redgrave It's literally only when you're doing something that they personally dislike as well. Whether they realize it or not because I can guarantee you there are plenty of habits that they would have wanted me to engage with that had nothing to do with making money but they were ones that they. Arbitrarily liked for 1 reason or another like you know that that that's why like that's why it feels so hollow to me like they can say why are you doing this when you could be making money. But in reality it's it's kind of this weird like I guess cognitive dissonance where anything anything you. Like that they don't get scrutinized as to its actual monetary value but anything they like is all good like my parents were kind of the same way with sports I had no interest in sports. My siblings did myiblings played tons and tons and tons and tons of sports growing up my parents paid for everything involving that. 52:19.40 Antonio Redgrave Neither of them grew up to be athletes and they were never going to be so what is this making money nonsense. You're talking about. 52:27.80 Raul I had a similar experience with baseball or ah, my my dad loves baseball and I was very very very bad at it. My batting average my first year of the league was 7 not 700 not 70 7 ah and he I I honestly don't think he liked me as I was ah growing up partially because of that. Ah, ironically since I've become. More professionally successful. He seems to be okay with me now funny how that works. 53:09.17 Jala Yeah, yeah, I can understand it's kind of like in the last few years as you know the company that I work for for my day job has you know, grown and changed and my role has grown and changed and all of that like my dad is. Okay, with how I make money now but he's really really critical of Dave because Dave is not in the field that he would choose and that is kind of because Dave came over here during pandemic had like a lapse in his work history because of pandemic and moving and you know he hasn't been able to. You know, find a job with as competitive as the job market is and so he's in a type of field right now he's going to be back out there trying to figure out you know what? he's going to do but like my dad is very very critical and also um to. Th and we'll we'll talk about it more later the immigrant parents in with something like gender roles and and their expectations about gender and other subjects. Ah my dad has a lot of expectations of Dave who is my fiancee. Because Dave is the man and you know he used to when I was by myself. He used to just have these expectations of me but those expectations he has of me have shifted to you are the woman and you do these things he is the man and he does these things and it chafes real bad for both of us. 54:40.82 Raul And you you think if anybody would understand moving to a different state and having to start up your professional career again. It would be your dad. 54:48.42 Jala You would think you might think but you know like I find that the further my dad is from things the easier it is for him to get on a high horse about them and since he hasn't had to move and start over again in a very long time. And because he's not in the job market and he doesn't understand that everything you have to apply for everything online is not going out and beating. You know, beating on doors and stuff in a suit. You know like that's that's a whole different topic. So. 55:24.78 Antonio Redgrave Yeah, my ah my dad is a successful um you know person who works and has been for years and years and he still thinks it's about knocking on doors with applications and all that. Yeah. 55:33.34 Jala Yeah, and it's like no, that's not how it anything works if you go physically in person they will tell you to go apply online so you know whatever? Yeah, absolutely some. 55:42.42 Antonio Redgrave And quite flatly at that like nothing will have been gained by you wasting your time and theirs by showing up in person. 55:51.52 Jala Yep, so but ah, moving on to other issues with being a first generation american so ah, some of these I don't feel really apply as much to us because of our particular situations like. The dependent relationship dynamic. Um, that is true in my family in that I am taking care of my parents ah somebody's got to take care of them and they they don't have like you know a you know, big four zero ah one knest egg or anything. And that's not something that they were able to build up or anything like that. So I live with them. They are disabled and immunocompromised and I'm here so that I can be a physical help because they could not get around and be autonomous without a little bit of assistance and they you cannot afford you know home healthcare. So I have that kind of dependent relationship dynamic. Um, also they of of course by doing this I have a roof over my head that you know I I help pay some of the bills and stuff. But it's not like um, trying to buy a house in this market. You know so. Anyway, so that there's the dependent relationship dynamic and also having to grow up faster and take responsibility for your family. Um I was the younger of 2 children. So I didn't have a large number of siblings that I had to look after and since I was a smaller one I didn't have to look after anybody. Um, and so. 57:21.62 Jala Yeah, and then too like we didn't live around a bunch of families. So it's not like I was babysitting or watching out for the cousins or something like that I didn't have that kind of a situation. So um I didn't really have to deal with that the same way that say the older kids from my dad's family had to like. You know my older uncles who came over with the little kids right? at first who ended up having to go to work and take their paycheck directly to their parents because like they had to help support the entire family like all of the younger generation and stuff because otherwise they they wouldn't make it. Um, that was more the situation that like some of my uncles had so how about ah you guys dependent relationship dynamic and growing up fast taking responsibility any of that kind of thing with either of you. 58:16.00 Antonio Redgrave It's it's kind of yes and no like I definitely again because of the I guess the unique privilege I've had of of growing up. You know as a first generation american just kind of growing up like. Fully naturalized in a family that was kind of already making it during you know an economic boom in the country right? like the you know I there was never really a pressure for me to kind of like take on these extra household responsibilities or bills etc. There was a kind of. Codependency but it it was more with like I don't know if this even counts as codeendency but was more with like weird like parental ownership of their children if that makes sense. Yeah, just like this kind of like idea that like you're not your own person. 59:09.95 Antonio Redgrave You completely belong to your parents first and foremost anything that would be considered normal for just dealing with another adult like you know, personal space or respecting wishes or. Even little things like you know, knocking before entering your room things like that there just things that were constantly casually dismissed for reasons of oh well, you belong to us you were our kid and is our house. Basically it was a it was a weird. I guess maybe it's not codependency but it was kind of like a an active. It was like active disrespect for any kind of barriers between people if that makes sense. Yeah. 59:48.11 Jala Yeah, yeah, yeah. 59:52.23 Raul I Don't have any experience with this one my own like my side of the family but my wife who is a a naturalized immigrant recently had a cousin who needed a place to stay and it's one as Well. Did. There's no,, There's no way he's gonna be homeless like you can't say no, There's no like I can't I don't I don't think this is at least that situation I don't think is even so much as like an immigrant thing I think that's just like a humanity thing where you you help out. People who are part of your family if you're able to. 01:00:32.70 Jala Yeah, yeah, so another issue that children of immigrants face is that the pressure that children of immigrants or naturalized immigrants face is. Really high. But then the mental health support that that doesn't exist like when I was growing up. We didn't even we couldn't afford to go to the doctor or the dentist anyway, um, most of the time like when we could we would get a checkup in but like that wasn't all the time and insofar as mental health stuff like. My sister has probably has you know like ah some neuro divergence and that was never diagnosed because um, you know my parents are of the era where they don't believe in mental health stuff so there isn't really like a mental health support going on. It's not like. I could have gone to my parents and go you know I'm feeling really stressed and I need to talk to a therapist like I could not do that growing up that that was not an option and I think more than it being about being an immigrant I feel like that's more like the generation that our parents were was just one that didn't. Have mental health the same way that we do today and so they don't believe in it the same way that you know we find out is actually true. You know like we actually need mental health stuff imagine that Tony. 01:02:03.88 Antonio Redgrave Um, you kind of said what I was already going to say was that I deal with I deal with a lot of this but it was it felt less to do with immigration and more to do just with like the generation that my parents were from um. We definitely could afford to go to doctors growing up. Thankfully you know we did get like regular checkups and shots and you know the way it normally would but any mental help was basically it basically didn't exist. It wasn't a real thing. Um, if anything growing up like. Like the idea of seeing a therapist was treated like a threat basically where it would be kind of like you know if we'd if there was if I would have like an especially explosive confrontation with my mom growing up. Ah, for 1 reason or another you know some of it was just you know, typical growing pains like being a teenager. Some of it was like actual really like you know insidious stuff but you know regardless of that like the idea of oh well? Well you know Antonio you're. 01:03:08.28 Antonio Redgrave You sound you sound like you're sick in the head we should take you to a shrink like it was kind of talked with that kind of cadence as like something that you were meant to be scared into not wanting and then of course they would never do it because they didn't believe if I at any time I ever brought up like anxiety or depression or anything like that it was. I was basically told give me a break. Basically in those words, um I was weirdly enough I was diagnosed with with ah with ad Hd very early but that almost they almost immediately turned around and said that's fake. You can't use that as an excuse for anything. Basically. And you know I went unmedicated for not all but most of my life as a result of that and you know it was it basically created this dynamic where combination of that for my parents growing up and then that kind of comboing into me not being able to get health care as an adult. That kind of combos into me being someone who desperately needs like you know mental health assistance of some sort but just has no way of getting it and you know it's it's hard. 01:04:13.62 Jala Yeah, and I just wanted to add that in my household if I were to present this concept of I need therapy for X Y Z or whatever I I think there's something different about how my brain works or any of that. 01:04:14.75 Raul Yeah in I'm sorry. 01:04:33.57 Jala My dad would see that as a slight on him trying like me accusing him of failing because I have a problem and so that's how it would come across in my house. 01:04:41.63 Antonio Redgrave Oh. 01:04:46.40 Raul Wow. 01:04:47.99 Antonio Redgrave That sounds about right? Actually I I Very rarely consciously think about that but there was definitely an element of that as well. In my case. 01:04:55.21 Jala So Raul you were going to say. 01:04:58.86 Raul um yeah um I guess in in my household. Um mental health may as well have not existed as a concept. Um I I very much believe that I have Adhd um. 01:05:15.70 Raul The point where I have a referral on my desk for a neural psychologist to get assessed for Adhd that I've had for several weeks and I have not made the appointment which I think should just make an automatic. Yes, um, and it's just It was never It's you know you need to focus and ah that was it that was the extent of ah mental health care. 01:05:44.84 Jala And um, I'm not going to talk too much about it because it's not um, it's It's not my story to tell. But my sister like I said I I believe and she believes as well that she had ah has a you know some kind of Neuro divergence right?? um. And I believe that is part of what led to a lot of her difficulties when she was a teenager with my dad because they butted heads endlessly and I feel like a lot of that is because the expectations placed on her were those of someone who doesn't have a Neuro divergence and. With her Neuro divergence being untreated or unrecognized at all made it to where she automatically you know did not fit the mold that she was given and so they butted heads kind of constantly throughout all of the time that my sister was a teenager. So but um, yeah, so it it definitely causes some problems. Um between that and then just like the cultural differences which we have not gotten yet to but we will the cultural differences in in outlooks of the naturalized immigrant parents and then the children. But um, other things we've talked already about not fitting in a little bit I have anyway about not fitting in I'm not Latin X enough I'm not specifically Cuban enough I'm not American enough I'm not it like I don't have a a place that I fit. 01:07:13.38 Jala Ah, the box none of the boxes I was given fit me and so I have perpetually since I was young ah had this problem of just being very acutely aware of not fitting any boxes and that can be a strength because that means that you are a little bit of a lot of things and you can relate to a lot of different people. And you know you have something to say about a lot of different categories if you will but also that means that you feel unmoored. You don't have um you know like a community to which you have a strong connection Raul you were going to say something. 01:07:48.46 Raul So that um I to give a frame of reference I I always refer to being a a white passing latino as being a half elf where you no matter which. Society you're in like the like elves think you're too human the humans think you're too elven and I've just I'm very lucky that I live in what's basically a half elven City and I. 01:08:19.20 Jala Yeah, yeah. 01:08:24.40 Raul I Often tell people that I have shortened yours identity because whatever you are I'm the opposite if I'm speaking to a Cuban person I'm an American if I'm speaking to an American person I am a cuban. 01:08:36.14 Jala Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that's exactly why I said earlier I missed when I left Mia me and I came here I was just like wow this is depressing. There is no like I there's no group. At least I had sort of a group over there because there's a bunch of other people in the same boat as me, you know so Tony. 01:09:03.70 Antonio Redgrave So yeah, um, my my experience with this was you know we talked about this extensively off the air um was less of like it. It. It was kind of almost like I guess the opposite or half the opposite problem where rather than feeling like. I Don't quite belong anywhere. It's that I feel I was successfully bleached white. So strongly that I fit in with white people and only white people. Um, you know I had this kind of upbringing where like I get I guess to establish this when I ah. 01:09:40.52 Antonio Redgrave 1 of the things about my maternal grandfather. The the side of my family who came to America after world war 2 um, was that he was for lack of a better word I don't mean this disrespectfully I just just think this is the easiest way to say is that. He was very very very deeply pilled on like american nationalism and patriotism and America as being his new home right? Like there was a lot of talk about how you know? Well we're not from that country anymore. We're american now you know we eat american food and we speak english. And if we invite friends from our home country over and they bad mouth America we kick them out of the house. You know there was a lot of that growing up right? and I think part of the result of that was that my mother she she not just in this way in many other ways she overidentifieded with. Her father in many many many many different ways and one of those ways was in like his unwavering patriotism for America and that kind of manifested growing up as like oh well, you're not going to learn your your mother's parents language. You're not going to learn um arabic like your dad's family knows. You're going to eat very minimal. What's there was exceptions for food we did eat some some food from our home country but aside from that I was like you're not going to learn anything about the culture. You're not going to You're not really going to spend much time with dad's family There are many states away. Um, there was this emphasis on just. 01:11:11.52 Antonio Redgrave Again for lack of a better word. There was an emphasis on raising us as what they would as what some insensitive folks would say is quote normal like you know we are not immigrant Americans we are just plain old white Americans and and the result was kind of like growing up just. 01:11:28.19 Antonio Redgrave Having 0 connection to the cultures I came from and feeling like almost like a fraud if I try to chase that part of me again as far as I'm concerned in any way I am a white person I feel even though I don't even though I feel a bit uncomfortable with that I feel like i'm. In a way being dishonest if I tell anyone I'm anything but white as a result of that. 01:11:52.62 Jala Yeah that's that's a really powerful situation that I think a lot of folks who are white passing face. You know, um and I know Raul that you want to say something just give me one second I just wanted to add that my dad and some of his brothers. Did serve in the Us military and the very first thing that my dad did once we moved into what is our current house was he built a flagpole and he put up an american flag with a cross on the top of it because my dad is very catholic and you know as much as he. Actually is ah critical of the government especially in its current climate current situation. Um, he also yeah has been a proud american although you know he's also at this point like man. It's a trash fire and I don't know where is a better place to go. You know. I don't know where because there's so many places in the world that are are um in a bad situation right now politically so Raul. 01:12:54.52 Raul And so um I guess I have something that might blow both of your minds because my experience has been almost exactly the opposite all I heard growing up was how amazing Cuba was before he who shall not be named showed up and. Like ah my dad came over here in the 70 s so fifty years ago and he still does not speak english and um, it's just never been a thing and I'm I'm curious because ah Tony brought up something. Ah, when he is when when I'm asked what are you or where are you from I I always have a lot of issues answering that and it like it kind of blew my mind that he just can say white and feel feel comfortable with that because i. When I'm asked where I'm from if I'm honest and I say Miami or the us it's that's not what they're really asking. You know they're they're asking like what's your heritage or where your parents from so you know they'll say where are you from Miami no originally. 01:14:10.99 Raul Was born in Miami it doesn't get more original than that. Um, so it's I guess I've I've struggled with that because like people ask me that and I feel like in ah I feel like an asshole answering it because like that's not what they're asking. But i. 01:14:30.47 Raul Can't tell them Cuba because I wasn't born there I have no connection personally to Cuba I don't even want to go there. Um, so it's kind of like a catch 22 and it like I blew my mind that Tony's just says white and he's fine like and I'm not. 01:14:49.52 Raul I'm not disparaging it I'm I'm happy for you like I wish I could have an answer for that. 01:14:54.10 Jala Well when I know Tony that you were waiting to say something but I did want to say um so when I was born and when my first language according to what my parents tell me was spanish but then they switched me over to english right away because they didn't want me to be in the english as a second language class. And also my mom is you know, not cuban so therefore does not know like she understands spanish she does not speak spanish and so um, because of that like we didn't speak spanish a lot growing up in the house. Although sometimes my dad would just bust out with it and just like expect me to know and it's like but we don't talk in this language at home. Why are you expecting me to be fluent. You know, just because some of the um older aunts and uncles taught their children spanish and they speak spanish and the household. You know, like that's a different situation. They grew up differently than I did I didn't grow up with that. You know I didn't grow up speaking this I had to go to school to learn spanish because we didn't speak it enough for me to pick it up. Well you know and um. Insofar as like and when it comes to sense this datata and like whenever you come up across the um ethnicity questions like when they started doing the you know white with hispanic origins answer although that is probably you know the best way to say it since I am white passing that. 01:16:19.24 Jala Answer upsets me and I never answered that I always answer latino on those questions because like that that to me feels like I'm I'm washing out the part of the culture that I you know like yeah as much as it was weird in half you know, um. I did grow up in eating all cuban food and living a lot of time you know a lot of my time in Miami and you know in like a more latin culture. So like it's it's different enough from white that I can't say it's like white with Latino origins that to me sounds more like a ah Tony situation. You know. Then it does the situation that I had when I was growing up so that I have problems answering those questions too and Tony I will throw to you. 01:17:04.10 Antonio Redgrave And yeah, my it's funny because my ah experience is kind of the inverse of what ra will brought up about like oh where are you from I'm from Miami with me. It's more like if I'm asked where I'm from. And you know I used to do this whole time as a kid like ah as a kid I was just this kind of like clueless blissfully cheerful. You know idiot who didn't notice any nuance and conversation so people would ask me where I was from I'd be like oh yeah, I'm a. You know I'm half Middle Eastern and I'm half Eastern european and like and I basically just give them the whole story in like 8 sentences or something and then they'd be like no no, no I mean where are you from and then what they mean is you know hometown in America basically and I think part of why it's like that is because like. Not only am I like very very very white passing but like there's just no issues like there are like no hints to me not be having any non-white origins either like I like you know I like you know I have a. I have a I have a first name that isn't anything like either country of my parents' origin I don't have any ghost of an accent to speak of like you know there's there's just like like people look at me and they just see a white guy basically and you know it kind of. 01:18:31.77 Antonio Redgrave It kind of makes like an interesting like inverse scenario that I'm also that is pretty very privileged in a lot of you know, serious ways that I won't discount but it is also something I'm not happy with either. 01:18:46.10 Jala Well, it's so funny that you say that because um I guess it's because when I was in Miami um, I got very very good at being able to pick out people who were like a quarter cuban or something like I was very good at being able to see the facial features that differentiated different groups of people. And so anyway like when I see you I can see your you know your origins a little bit better. You know like I can tell that you are obviously not just you know and some kind of european american you know? Ah so. And and it's funny because there are a lot of times when people will look at me and because I don't have an accent they will look at me and because I am white passing. They will just be like I didn't know you were latin x. You know like they just assume that I'm white and so we we will be. Hanging out on that for a while I'm sure Raul. 01:19:38.87 Raul And um, look like Jala Spanish was my first language. Ah as a child and like I think physically I I could pass. For white pretty well. But it's when I opened my mouth that it comes out I I used to think I had unacented english because compared to everyone down here I do but. 01:20:08.29 Jala And and you know that's the thing is that when I was in Miami I had the same accent that you do and when I got here and I lost that accent I I felt very weird I felt like I had lost a part of who I am like my my culture because if. When you're not around people who have that accent and if you're not actively speaking that language. Ah it goes away over time or at least I found that it did sorry to interrupt you. 01:20:39.45 Raul Um, but yeah, but the the first time we spoke Jalla you you said it was great to hear that accent again and I was like oh that's right I forgot and there's oh go ahead. 01:20:47.70 Jala Yeah I mean if I was in if I was in Miami I wouldn't even think about you having an accent but because I've been here for so long I can hear it because it's not here. 01:21:00.49 Raul And um, even if I spoke with a perfect midwestern Ah Accent. There were still artifacts of Spanish in my English which I get just two I could think of right off the top. My head. Over here. People don't say get out of the car they say get down from the car because that's how you say it in Spanish and a cereal box doesn't come with a toy The cereal box brings a toy and I learned these like last week as I was doing research. For this podcast and all this time I Just thought that was the right way of saying things. So It's one of those things even if I ever lose my accent I don't think I will ever be able to fully pass which is not a goal of mine or anything. It's just something that. 01:21:51.30 Jala No well. What's really funny. What's funny for me is that um I like I said I went to school and I did pointedly try to take like Magnet spanish. 01:21:53.89 Raul Nice to have the option. 01:22:04.98 Jala Because I wanted an ap spanish because I wanted to be able to speak that language. That's part of my culture. Um, and I identified more with that culture than I did my mom's culture because we never saw my mom's family. We never. Spent time with them the way that we did with my dad's family. So like you know my dad passed down the the some of the culture stuff. Although then like assumed things like oh you should be able to speak perfect spanish when we don't actually speak it at home like who where where do you think I'm speaking it. You know where do you. This is happening like I I don't understand like whatever I was the one who actually chose my middle school and I chose a school that was more diverse the school that I would have defaulted to was primarily white. And the one that I went to had a whole bunch of people of color. So I had a lot of people around me from a bunch of different walks of life in different cultures and you know I liked that a lot better and I chose that myself. So um, but I wouldn't have had that experience if it had been. What. My parents chose for me, you know, like if they if they had me go to the school within the school district that they had elected It's kind of like um when we were talking on diversity and the next generation with Simone. Ah Simone was talking about how his family. 01:23:27.15 Jala And his wife similar like his wife is black and he is mexican-american and he was and his wife were both in white schools and for their child Paloma. They put her into um, a more diverse Montessori. 01:23:46.80 Raul I believe it's pronounced montessori. 01:23:47.00 Jala Montessori I do not know how to say that word. Okay, that's not how it looks to me. But anyway, um, that ah put poloma in that but like a more pointedly diverse because they they were the only ones in their schools and so um, they had that. Situation growing up and didn't like it. Um, so anyway Raul you you have been waiting to speak. 01:24:12.81 Raul Um, another weird bit of like opposite symmetry is that um as I also like I said I grew up speaking spanish as a primary language but I learned english from watching Tv. 01:24:28.95 Raul And my parents didn't realize that I had learned English because they didn't speak English So when I went to elementary school my mom wanted to put me into the esol classes which is ah esol English for speakers of other languages the the Spanish class if essentially and they. Would not put me in there because I knew too much English and it was funny because my mom your mom was trying to fight to keep you out of it. My mom was trying to fight to put me in it and ironically I did not know enough English to be in the regular class I Still remember this story. This is. 01:25:06.64 Raul This was kindergarten I still remember this every day somebody would have to go out and look outside and come back in and say what the weather was and one one day kid goes out comes back in and he says it's sunny and I'm like you know what they might pick me for this one day. I'm gonna remember that word because I'm gonna go out I'm gonna come in I'm gonna say sunny and I'll let you guess what happened so they picked me the the day they picked me it was a thunderstorm and I walk out I come in and I say sunny and everybody looks at me like I'm insane. 01:25:31.10 Jala Oh my. 01:25:31.94 Antonio Redgrave Oh no. 01:25:44.95 Raul And I think oh maybe I mispronounced it So I say a louder. 01:25:50.71 Jala oh boy oh I have ah a stupid cultural thing that is not actually related to um you know like a family culture but like place culture so when I was born I was born in Texas I I lived in Houston. We went to Miami and when I went to Miami we had to stand up and say the pledge of allegiance. Well in Texas because Texas is the lone star state and flies its flag everywhere that it can be flown. We also have an addendum to the pledge of allegiance honor the Texas. Flag I pledge allegiance to thee Texas one in indivisible. But because this was tacked on to the end of the pledge of the allegiance pledge of allegiance I automatically assumed that that was just a thing people said and I didn't even think about honor the Texas flag is in there. So if we're in Florida that doesn't you know, translate over. So you know when I went to Miami I was like ok so we're standing up for the pledge of allegiance and I keep going and I see everybody sitting down and I'm like wait. They're not done with the pledge and it took like I had to go home and go mom. They didn't just finish the pledge. It's weird and then she's like no, that's and a thing. Just in Texas and I was like oh that's weird, why? well because then you know here's a ah Texas history one. Oh one for the little kid. You know who's just gone to Miami and been like what so Tony. 01:27:22.68 Antonio Redgrave And um, so what you're saying is that King of the Hill based on true story. 01:27:25.62 Jala I guess I never watched King of the Hill. 01:27:28.69 Raul And even the pledge of allegiance. Sorry. 01:27:30.60 Antonio Redgrave Um, yeah I assume that there was some exaggeration with the Texan pride thing. Yeah. 01:27:38.39 Jala Well um, another weird thing is that when I went to Miami my dad because he's a prankster was just like tell everybody that you rode a horse to school and that you fought indians on the way and I did and people believe me. 01:27:54.33 Jala So ah, yeah, that's the thing that that's people in people's thoughts about what Texas is yeah does so Raul ah typed in the little chat like even the pledge of allegiance is bigger in Texas yes, it is it is in fact. 01:28:11.61 Jala So ah, moving right? along though some other issues that that come up with being a child of immigrants. So um, something that raul you found in a lot of your research which does not actually translate over to my experience is that. It's very common for children of immigrants to go through a period of rejecting their parents' culture before coming around to it later in life as I said like for me when I was growing up. We. We lived for a long period of time in Miami. And there were a lot of cuban people and we went to go see my cuban family and I was steeped in cuban culture. So for me, it was like no I want to better fit into this culture that is all around me and in my house and all of this other stuff and so i. Wanted to learn more and I took pride in having that cuban heritage when I was growing up and I never had like this ah kickback against any of that so you know the only I guess the only regret I had is that we never really learned much about. My mom's cultures of norwegian and german like we had a few traditions that have been passed down but I don't really know much about those cultures in America or those cultures from the original countries to the same degree that I do with the cuban because my dad's yeah, um, culture drowned everything else out. 01:29:36.16 Raul Um, I my experience with it was were some sometimes sometime around seven or eight years old I just decided that I was done. Speaking spanish I was not going to speak it anymore I hated spanish and I was going to stick to english and to this day I don't remember why I decided that my parents think that I was being made fun of in school or something but from that point on i. I stopped speaking spanish and I lost a lot of my spanish skill and I've I've been trying to get better at it. But I'm nowhere near a a native speaker like anybody who. Who speak spanish as her first language who speaks to me in spanish like despite me being fluent. We'll know right off the bat that it is not my native language which is ironic because it is my native language. Um, and. 01:30:42.88 Raul Like I've I was upset at ah, not having a normal name like Bob and I actually like even now like I've adopted a Starbucks name because my name is always misspelled and. 01:31:01.93 Raul You know I give that name instead of Raul because that way it doesn't come back. You know Paul or something. Ah. 01:31:07.56 Jala Well I mean I'm sorry Paul is better than Bob I apologize to any Bob out there listening to this I think it's just because I know a Bob who is extremely goofy and he's such a goober and just I I would not think that you would be a Bob. Um. Anyway, it's my Starbucks name remains the same I still just say Jolla and then I spell it out because I have to spell it out every time and then they go oh that's a pretty name I've never heard that before and. 01:31:24.73 Raul Midnight I Even I'm sorry god. 01:31:39.65 Jala You know we go from there and then they when they print and when they ah call my name for my coffee. It's always like jayla or something or Holla and it's like no and especially since it's the cuban heritage people always say hala and it's like it's not my name is actually not a spanish name which makes it even more complicated. Sorry Raul you were saying. 01:32:01.99 Raul That um, but when I was a little kid I actually I blamed my mom for me being cuban because she married a cuban because I did not understand genetics at the time and my dad is slightly. Darker ah skin tone and like that was I I guess because because of where I grew up like I I guess I just sort of I thought we were white despite us not actually being white like white is not. You know the absence of a culture white is its own culture which I have no no familiarity aside from what I've seen on Tv with little things like like um funerals a cuban funeral starts at night. 01:32:58.27 Raul And the family stays with the body until the next morning when it gets buried I Thought that was everybody's funeral. It turns out, it's not um, like I was a full grown adult in my mid. Mid to late 20 s the first time I had a dinner that did not include rice like like you just that's if that's what you have around you and that's what you everybody thinks the way they grew up is normal. 01:33:16.64 Jala Yeah rice. Always. 01:33:29.98 Raul Like no matter you could grow up underground in a cult somewhere and you just think well some part of you is always going to say well everybody grew up underground in a cult. 01:33:36.71 Jala Well and and um, it's fun that you say um about the like some of the the cultural stuff because say for example, um, back way back in the day before I was vegetarian or vegan. Um. I was just eating whatever cuban food and so I took my lunch to work one day and somebody said what are you eating it smells really good and I said pork roast and then they were like pot roast and I said no pork roast pot roast. No, it's pork What do you mean? pork. And like there was this whole back and forth and I'm like I forgot I had an ethnicity until this this white person just told me that they didn't know what I was eating because I said pork roast and it just did not fit the box they were expecting so you know so yeah, but um, so. 01:34:23.25 Raul Yeah. 01:34:30.42 Jala Tony You didn't even really have like a rejection period did you because you already considered yourself to be white. 01:34:39.56 Antonio Redgrave It It was kind of like where I was intentionally raised with the rejection. Um, like I kind of allude to this earlier but there was some what feels like partsh at least partially Intentional. Isolation of me from my father's Family. We moved in multiple states away. Um my mother always hated them for a bunch of complicated reasons that um I won't get into them but suffice it to say that she's not blameless in her reasoning. Let's put it that way. 01:35:13.56 Antonio Redgrave But you know there was a lot of like weird like bigotry and even like outright racism towards my dad's family and that kind of like is still the idea that we are not member we are not Arabic basically and that was like a big part of like growing up was how we're American We're not arabic and like. Mom side of the family was you know the country her parents came from is you know white and you know she didn't like specifically she didn't specifically deny that aspect of our heritage either. But she didn't like promote it either. But there was definitely Like. Kind of like Anti-arabic sentiment that we were raised with even to this day. My mother will give my father grief over like what an arab he is or how his family is etc just in a bunch of like frankly like really shitty kind of bigoted ways right? and so I was kind of just raised from day one to not you know to think like. It wasn't even like it wasn't even like a conscious rejection. It was just me quote knowing in you know I'm making quotation marks on my fingers here. Um that you know I was American and not Arabic So like I was just kind of like I didn't really have a rejection period because it was specifically baked into me from. 01:36:27.78 Antonio Redgrave Earlier than I can possibly remember and a lot of my a lot of my recent like third light one third life crisis number 42 is kind of like you know is this kind of like really awful feeling that I had a. Heritage basically stolen from me without my consent like I it was basically decided that it was basically decided for me that I would have no connection to this very rich heritage I have and you know and kind of the result as an adult was me kind of being like. You know what? that really sucks like I like again I I always feel kind of uncomfortable talking about this because I I'm always like imagining that makeup a guy in my head who is going to say oh well look at the white guy who wishes he wasn't white. He isn't know how hard it is not being white and like. I'm aware that me being this white passing and this bleached in my culture is like something that is ah a privilege a lot of you know immigrants and children of immigrants don't have but it still sucks I don't want to be just someone who's disconnected for my heritage I want to be a part of that I want to know Arabic I want to know the language and the culture I want to know the family that you know I had but have no connection to and I don't in a way that makes me feel stuck and like I don't really have a way to reconnect with that like I remember I was writing the notes for these sections last night 01:38:00.89 Antonio Redgrave And for the first time in many years I almost cried like I am someone who does not cry for whatever reason I don't know why but I almost cried thinking about this because it is this kind of like deepseated pain feeling like something was took from me that I didn't want taken from me i. 01:38:15.73 Jala Yeah, and I want to say that that's not limited to people who are children of immigrants people that I know who are and what is usually called like Heinz 57 white american you know like a little bit of a bunch of different types of american like they. 01:38:35.11 Jala They will also feel that way about the different cultures from which their family came or if they are not Heinz 57 if they're like quarters of something they have a strong connect and they want to reconnect with their german heritage or their their british heritage or whatever and you know. There's always somebody who looks at that and wants to give a stink eye right? Um, just because I don't know what it is about just like people out in society. They just have a problem whenever anybody shows pride in something that is not inclusive of them. But it feels like that's kind of how it is where like if you are prideful of something you are happy to be included in something you want to learn more about and participate in this thing that doesn't include that onlooker then suddenly that's like a problem you know I think they feel maybe they feel threatened because they don't understand it. It's it's like that exclusion us them kind of thing. Um I feel kind of similar about it because there were a lot of times when I was growing up that I was like I wish my dad would have kept talking in spanish to me when I was little because like I don't have. The vocabulary I don't have anything like if I were to go and try to visit some of those you know, ah more fluent family. They wouldn't I couldn't keep up with them. You know and even speaking with Raul like when I first started hanging out with Raul. It's like you know ah is not like a ah thing that. 01:40:09.91 Jala You were intentionally doing but just like knowing that you know a lot more spanish than me. It's like I can I feel this gap this lapse this big gulf because I can't speak to you in our mutual. Language I have to speak in English because I don't know enough Spanish to do that And also I also regretted that we never got to spend time with my mom's family and I never got to learn about the Norwegian and German Bulks I don't know anything about them I don't know anything about that heritage or. Any of that and so like my mom was handing me some artifacts from like my great-grandparents and handing them to me and telling me these stories and I'm like I don't know anything about this I don't know anything about these people I don't know anything about you know any of their struggles or situations when they were growing up and just like it did. The heritage in general is something that I feel a lot of people really wish they had more connection to not limited necessarily to immigrants and role. You wanted to speak. 01:41:17.39 Raul Well um, I'm sorry if I made you feel that way that was not my intention. 01:41:21.40 Jala Oh no, no, no, no it is it is nothing that you exist in the world and because you exist in the world and you know, um I exist in a different space but like we kind of have like ah in the Venn diagram. There's a part that overlaps together. You know, ah insofar as some of our background but at the same time I feel a lack because there's parts that even if you are critical of your own spanish. It is so much better than mine continue. 01:41:49.39 Raul Um, well I It's I don't know this is ah a very weird situation for me because I am I think and I think I said this The first time we spoke and I am a bad cuban in that I am I don't fit. Nearly any of the stereotypes I'm I'm not loud I'm not into cigars or or wearing linen I'm not a good dancer like and I don't know part of part of that I think was because growing Up. We wanted to avoid what? um. What we call This is probably not great, but what we called in school roughiness like you don't want to be like a a refugee basically like outwardly like you know Super Cuban So to me I'm sorry. But. 01:42:41.78 Jala You? Yeah yeah when I was in Miami we had a kind of similar thing where it's like you a lot of people would try to differentiate themselves from people who were ah what was very unkindly called f o b. You know, fresh off the boat if they they didn't want to seem like ah somebody who has just appeared from Cuba they wanted to feel like ah you know know they're established. They know. Everything they're not in the same category like it's weird how there's even categories within immigrants in that way. 01:43:17.80 Raul Yeah, um, yeah, it's like you you didn't want to be a rafter you know, um in I don't know that the I don't know if that's just. 01:43:31.83 Raul Way that I am like I just I'm not into those things or I don't know if if like I consciously became this way over time because I was trying to avoid the stereotypes so to to me I am like the the least Cuban Cuban that ever Cuban and it. It's it's it's weird for me that that you all consider me like I guess more more immigrant I Guess I and I don't know like that kind of blows. 01:43:58.84 Jala No, not more not not more immigrant. It's more you could say more appropriately that you have a stronger connection to the cultures that your parents or the culture rather you don't have multiple you have 1 um. Culture that your parents came from. You have a greater connection both because of both of your parents have come from Cuba but also because where you live is really advantageous insofar as trying to keep connected to that culture like I'm I'm super transplanted over here and. Houston there's not like I said there's not a lot of ah there's not a large cuban population. There's not a lot of cuban culture to be had here and so I lost a lot of my um capacity to interact with that culture by moving here. So the location that you're in also allows you to. Just by default already have more exposure to cuban culture on a daily basis than I do so um, it's not It's not you know? oh you're more of an immigrant than me that's that's not at all the thing. Um, it's just you have a stronger connection to that. Mutual heritage than I do because of just like a lot of different factors and it stills it. What does that say about my connection to the culture. What does that tell you about that that tells you that um it's. 01:45:12.56 Raul And I guess that's it I Just I feel like I have a very weak connection to it. 01:45:24.35 Jala It's enough for me to feel like I'm very different from the ah you know various strains of european americans that are here and you know Heinz 57 americans ah but at the same time It's not enough to fit it if I were to go back to Miami right now. Nobody would know. That I am cuban so so yeah and in fitting in is again like that's a kind of thing that I've already talked about I don't fit in I don't fit in anywhere I never have and I don't know that I ever will because not only am i. Ah, mixture of different cultures. But then I also started learning japanese which then threw my spanish for a loop and then like some of my vocal tics and things are actually more from japanese than they are from spanish because at one point I had a couple of friends that I would speak spanish and japanese and english to and so we would just speak in this mixture of. All 3 languages and type to each other you know in all 3 languages and just be able to understand and the sentence structures were their own animal because it was like you know how they have spanglish well have spanglish but add japanese in there and then you've got what we were speaking and typing to each other and it. Its own little structure. It was interesting. Um, and eventually I lost touch with those folks but um, so yeah, like a lot of my vocal tics that I have aren't even spanish vocal tics anymore they are from the last language that I was learning which was japanese tony. 01:46:53.51 Antonio Redgrave So it's kind of like you took alphabet soup from America and Cuba and Japan you just kind of mix them all together right? and just have like all 3 of them. 01:47:08.39 Jala Yeah, and the funny thing about it is that Dave is a white passing. He's got a lot of different cultures. Ah, he's got Eastern East asian he has spanish he has um indian. As well like a native american first peoples. Um, so he's got indigenous cultures irish and a bunch of other things mixed in. But then when he he served in the military in the air force and he also was a linguist. He ah took his major and in. College was East Asian studies and so he is um, pretty familiar with like Korean and japanese and a tiny bit of chinese and so when he and I started talking to each other. We. Both have this little mixture of like some. Tendencies from like East asian languages and spanish and other languages like that and then also from english and so we actually kind of spoke the same language. Um in a way that is unique that I hadn't had since I had those couple of friends that were learning japanese and also of. Some kind of latin x origin back in the day. Raul. 01:48:22.33 Raul So sorry I'm just imagining like sample sentences like you know, ola whatashiwa Jala Chade bro. 01:48:30.49 Jala Yeah, it really was it was kind of like that it was It was really like we couldn't think of the word in the one language that we were already speaking so we switched languages and then you know like everything would just kind of get mixed up and rather than trying to sit there and think about what was the word and the language we were talking. We just use the other word. So You know?? Yeah yeah, and that's exactly how we talked and it was just completely normal and we just speak to each other like that and type to each other that way because then too there would be times where one language or another would be most appropriate to get across the exact meaning. 01:48:50.29 Raul And it kind of broke my brain thinking of that. Yeah. 01:49:08.40 Jala Because you know there are certain sentiments that they are kind of sprung up in a very specific way in a specific culture and it doesn't translate well into another language. So you know you can have like a certain saying in spanish that you can't really like you can translate the words but the meaning is is changed. When it comes to english or something so we would have those kinds of sentences or nuance of language like you know with japanese there's the different politeness levels. There's the different accents for different places in Japan you've got like yakuza accent and stuff so we would throw in different ones. You know and like sometimes we would have a super girly affectation but we'd have to throw in some japanese to get that girly affectation because of the word choices in japanese that are so intentional to that particular expression. So yeah, it it really was a truly. Fun time to be able to speak freely and that that was probably about the time that I felt the most like I was in a group of people that I fit in with because they were so like there were such a mixture just like I was. And they had so many different exposures and interests that meshed with some of the exposures and interests that I had we were definitely different like ah 1 of them was mexican american one of them is Puerto rican and then there was me but at the same time you know we were all in America. 01:50:39.55 Jala And we had all gone to Japan for Japanese Rock concerts we were all you know, studying japanese and reading stuff in japanese and talking to each other and speaking to you know other people in this kind of mismash of a language. So. 01:50:55.53 Raul That that sounds like it must have been a great time. 01:50:59.54 Jala Yeah, but that's why like it blew my mind when I started talking to Dave because I hadn't had that in so long and I didn't think I'd ever find that again, right? and then you know Dave and I are sitting here trying to co-op a game when we first start you know, um, learning about each other and the title of the game was in. Japanese and so he's reading out the sentence or I'm reading out the sentence and then you know, um, he's reading some of it and I was like no no, no, it says blah and then he's like oh yeah, yeah, you're right I I misread that Kanji and I was like you can read the kanji you can read the. 01:51:36.86 Jala Yeah, but at the same time then I Also you know, um, was able to express stuff in in. Um, talk about different aspects of my culture. My Latin X culture and things that he understood because his family has that as well. So yeah, it was pretty neat. 01:51:54.93 Raul It just occurred to me that speaking in Japanese would probably help you feel a lot more comfortable with your gender expression since it's so much more outwardly visible. 01:52:04.17 Jala Yeah, it is. It's it's a lot easier in japanese to express different sentiments of gender at different times and it's so much easier for me to speak in Japanese and. Get across the super feminine or the kind of neutral it can be whatever or like the super masculine like I I would switch my language quite a bit in japanese all the time and my politeness levels like all of that there. There were so many different nuances that I'm sure to a native japanese speaker me just talking the way that I would. You know to best express how I was at that moment was just like frenetic and nuts like that is not how people in Japan speak. However I am utilizing that language to you know Express very clearly what it is that I want to share about myself. At that time. So but anyway, um, let's let's talk. We're we're running up here on time but let's let's get a couple of more things in here. So we're all white passing and we've already kind of talked about you know how do you consider yourself? Do you consider yourself to be a person of color or what? um. Already talked about like I struggled when I saw the white with Latino origin or just latino box and I already said that you know I picked the latino box. But um, when it comes to examining power and privilege and things like that I am super privileged I am still. 01:53:32.15 Jala The child of an immigrant I am still a minority and there have been times that I have had my race ah thrown up against me and been told all different kinds of things even by my own family because my mom's family was racist. So my grandmother on my mom's side at 1 point in time. Came up to me one day and said your mud and you would have been living under a bridge if it wasn't for us and I had racism in my own family towards me about my race. Ah, and so I've had to deal with that granted because I am white past. Seeing once I lost my accent. Ah I don't have to think about it the same way that a person who is very visibly brown or black has to worry about it. So um, and then 2 cubans as a group had so much privilege when it came to. Coming over and what opportunities were given to them by the us government and so in that way my family as much as it had struggles because it did immigrate and it did have to face a lot of challenges did not have to face. The same amount of challenges that someone who had to struggle to get here in the first place and then have no no preferential treatment. You know had to deal with so you know somebody who's coming from like war-torn Guatemala or something coming here. 01:55:00.86 Jala Has a very different experience than my family did rowel. 01:55:07.77 Raul Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right? Um, until until the 90 s basically if you if you managed to get out of Cuba. You could be a us resident no matter what? um. Afterwards in the 90 s they initiated we footot dry foot which made a little different but just that being a resident. Automatically, it opens up. You know, government assistance. It opens up every like you're here legally you can work like it's It is not a. It is not a minor thing it is it is huge and I think that's one of the things that has I guess make the cubans are one of the um wealthier. Immigrant groups and that's part of it is that um, another factor I think is just how rapid and large the migration was and how concentrated so there are something like two point six million cuban americans in the United States and one point seven million of them live in Florida so it's like an entire society transferred over like almost like you didn't really immigrate. You know you you brought it with you like Miami is its own country in many ways. 01:56:33.65 Jala Yeah, and and that's why I miss it so much like there were so many times that I kept on thinking about oh I want to move back to Miami I want to move back to Miami I love miami I miss miami blah blah blah and then ah one of the times that I was thinking this this is be like way way way back in the day. Thought this and then hurricane season came along and then it got hit 6 times and 1 of those times was the same hurricane that hit and loop back around and hit it again and I was like this is god telling me I don't need to go back to my emmy is what this is and um, yeah. 01:57:07.27 Raul You're like Houston's really nice. 01:57:09.75 Jala Oh yeah, except not really, but that's okay, we'll roll with it. Tony. 01:57:20.11 Antonio Redgrave I um I just want to respond to what you said Jala earlier about about filling in the box with Latino right? Um I will say that does kind of remind me 1 thing that I still do to this day despite all my. 01:57:36.86 Antonio Redgrave Complications I mentioned with how I view my own race is that whenever it comes to like a box on like a job application or whatever I do always put 2 or more races for the you know option. That's there. So I get I guess I guess it is kind of a thing where if I'm like. Alone and no one else is there for me to like influence my response then I do kind of like think of myself as being part of those cultures even if I don't feel it 99.9 percent of the time you know. 01:58:07.74 Jala Well and it's one of those things where it's just like a ah kind of dilemma that you face because you want to recognize all of who you are every aspect of your personhood and there's. At least for me a certain amount to which even though I didn't have a lot of exposure to say the norwegian and german sides mostly the norwegian we had a little bit of that influence but german very very little and so there's a certain degree to which I will see something that's german and. A little bit more um, friendliness or or warmth towards that comes out because it's like ah a recognition of oh that's that's kind of one of those cultures that's in there somewhere in me and you know like it's still in there. It's it's still alive in there somewhere I just I don't know. Enough about it I would love to go to Germany and that's one of the things is that Dave ah his family his dad was in the military and so he actually went to Germany and lived in a little german town for a number of years when he was growing up and so. That's kind of like another way in which I could talk to him and just kind of have a little bit more of a connection to that part of myself that I never got to really explore. You know? So I I can understand that I can understand um, definitely wanting to kind of include that even though. 01:59:38.97 Jala You get this weird kind of imposter syndrome in some ways because like you're not enough of anything to fit into any of the boxes that you're Given. So Then you're just like I don't I don't know am I authentic enough Am I Cuban enough am I white enough am I This enough am I that enough and. Usually your answer to yourself regardless of what other people say in affirmation is always like no, you're never never enough ever. Roll. 02:00:06.21 Raul Yeah, like I feel I feel like I know what I'm not more than I know what I am so I I don't could like I consider myself kind of sort of a pc but not really like I because I'm I'm not. White. It's not a default I don't have that culture so I can't put white but also I get 99.9 percent of the benefits of being white. So I my the way I split the difference sort of is I I will put on. Forms latino or other if that does is not an option but I I would not feel comfortable accepting say like appeals a scholarship for pocs or or any any kind of advantage for it. 02:01:04.23 Raul Um, that's I Guess that's that's just how I feel about it. Um. 02:01:09.21 Jala Yeah, because you want that to go to someone else who is struggling and doesn't have as many opportunities. 02:01:19.39 Antonio Redgrave I Yeah I I kind of understand that feeling as well like I like I've never been in a situation where where I think that would have happened to me but I've definitely like had that feeling that like if I get if I get like a special scholarship that's for. Minoritiest etc like is that even right because it feels like it's designed for a scenario that doesn't really match my own like as not just because like you know for like you know imposter syndrome reasons I Guess not not just for that but like also just for like you know. Because I had such a white upbringing that also did include like general stability and success like there is that kind of feeling that like that's not really meant for me. That's meant for someone who needs a leg up in a way that I don't you know? so it's. 02:02:11.51 Jala Yeah, yeah for sure. So we're already over the 2 hour Mark but I still want to touch on this a little bit. Um, one other thing that's a challenge being a child of an immigrant being a child in general but like. 02:02:13.24 Antonio Redgrave It's complicated to think about. 02:02:26.95 Jala Being a child of an immigrant also is just dealing with your immigrant parents when it comes to language and culture stuff that they don't understand because they're not from the same you know, ah Venn diagram of of intersecting things you know as you are um. Not understanding what you want to do with your life if it doesn't make money because of the capitalist engine. We already talked about that part politics. Um and then also outdated views on race and or gender that those. Topics politics outdated views on race and gender those are kinds of things that I feel are kind of they span every culture. They don't just apply to children of immigrants as being challenges. Um, however, they do when you are a child of an immigrant. Tie a little bit more into well you're not being a good such and such you know, whatever your your immigrant nationality is if you are of a different opinion or something um thoughts let let me just open that up. Thoughts. 02:03:40.69 Antonio Redgrave So I um I don't I don't really share I don't really have the well no, that's not entirely true. There are there are a bunch of cultural things. My parents don't understand because of like. 02:03:58.70 Antonio Redgrave It's weird because like it's in ways that I think can be tied in part to culture but they don't realize it's tied to culture if that makes sense um a lot of it is stuff that we've kind of already talked about earlier like you know when it comes to things like say treatment of mental health which I'm not I'm not trying to say that like. 02:04:18.16 Antonio Redgrave Non-american cultures have a dim view of mental health but just like at least in the case that I've been you know, describing like these kind of like these kind of very like old fashioned beliefs that they won't like drop that come from their parents. And then they pass on to us like I feel that's at least partially cultural and they but they just don't realize it and they don't you know acknowledge just like that. But then also it kind of like ties into things like you know politics as well. Like you know I I won't get deeply into it but there are like. There are some very very very deep ris between my parents and I when it comes to even when I consider like very basic things like that racism against people of color exist or that you know trans rights are human rights so you can imagine the breasts just based on those 2 right? and. 02:05:13.68 Antonio Redgrave It's kind of interesting because you know again I know I've been repeating this a lot throughout this episode but there is a lot of stuff where it's like it feels like when it comes to like you know when it comes to um conflicts between my parents and I. Things that you know you and I will might describe as like you know, cultural issues. A lot of what happened with me and my parents is like oh they came to the same conclusion but with different steps more or less or at least outwardly different steps. 02:05:40.52 Jala Um, yeah, so in that way, you might even say that the experience of being a child of an immigrant is not quite as ah, completely separated from like. Just being a child in America um, that there are some more commonalities at play than perhaps a lot of people think they definitely being a child of an immigrant is. Definitely a thing that is a challenge in its own unique ways for a lot of different reasons I feel like the folks who are on this episode though we have all kind of come out of it without having as deeply entrenched um challenges as some other folks have. Just on basis of ah Tony for you like your your dad's success when he came over and Raul for you and I being of cuban descent and having that already preferential treatment among immigrants to this country. So um, you know like this is we are we are you know broaching the subject we are talking about some of the challenges that even we face you know? Um, but there are definitely a lot deeper challenges and um issues in being a naturalized immigrant or being. 02:07:07.84 Jala Someone who is a child of an immigrant who did not have that preferential treatment when they were coming over. Um and so far as politics and stuff um and race and things like that. Definitely I feel like and it's funny I feel. 02:07:25.27 Jala Automatically in my head and in my heart I feel like oh my dad. Ah you know he he used to not be racist but as he gets older even my dad like I'm like why are you. Being racist you know, but he is. He's starting to become racist as he gets old and I don't know if that's because he's been here so long and he's disconnected from you know, um, where he first came over or if it's just because I don't know I can't even explain how he's. Become this way I feel like there are there is definitely among latinos. There's definitely racism but like my dad didn't so didn't use to express it. You know like I don't know what happened about him becoming an old cuban man that made him more more like that. 02:08:18.77 Raul Um, the the thing that a lot of people don't realize is that like at least in Cuba it was actually very similar to the us from a racial standpoint in like there was slavery until the 18 the late 18 hundreds. Um, and there's there is a lot of colorism There's a a thing that I've seen people do that I've only ever seen cuban people do but tell me if you recognize it? Do you know? what? it means when someone points to their forearm with 2 fingers. Okay. 02:08:53.80 Jala Nope do not know. 02:08:56.49 Raul That's that's almost like a code for like the person you're talking about is black and it is everything that with the I guess an easy way to think of it is all the all the horribleness that happened here. Also happened there. The only difference is that it was in spanish and I'm sorry and and that's actually part of the reason that I have so much difficulty conceiving of myself as a person of color is because had my grandparents immigrated to Spain. 02:09:33.63 Raul And then my parents immigrated from Spain to here I'd be white yet there'd be no difference. You know. 02:09:40.56 Jala Yeah, well for my dad I was thinking about it and what if and I don't know this because I'm not about to go ask him about why are you racist? but um, um, what if when my grandparents my mom's. Parents were alive and they were racist to Him. He had more compassion towards other brown people because my dad is brown um more compassion towards people of various races because he was under attack from his own you know in-laws What if that's the case. And as they're they're passed away Now they're gone. So now. He's not facing that oppression the same way that he did previously So what if now because he is not facing that oppression suddenly he's assuming those same affectations. 02:10:34.60 Raul It sounds like he's doing the same thing that he's doing to Dave Economically like the further he is away from it the less he remembers. 02:10:41.54 Jala Yeah, yeah, you're right? You're right? It's something about growing old and getting out of out of the ah market if you will. He's not interacting with anyone to where he is being being discriminated against and so now he's not yeah, thinking about it in the same way. Yeah, that is that is probably it. So um, there's that there's also um, yeah, among Latinos there's also a lot of the gender gender stuff. There's the very very macho culture and everything I've already talked all so much about. How my house was when I was growing up and how super binary and how my dad has expectations for men versus women and what they should be doing and he bought us dresses and jewelry when we were little in all this other stuff and he expects dave to do these things because he's the man and you know my dad. Um. When we were little told my mom who wanted to go back to college that she didn't need to go back to college because he made enough money for both of them and she needed to stay with the kids now I understand that any job my mom would have had would have only basically paid for the childcare so financially. It wouldn't have made a whole lot of sense. For her to do that. But at the same time It's like she she ended up going back later in life and getting that and at that point my dad did encourage her to go and get her degree but at the same time It's like you know like that. That's a you know, keep the woman at home. 02:12:12.97 Jala Raising the kids and being Susie Homemaker like that's real bad. Real bad look there and when all of the trans bathroom stuff was going around in a big deal here in Texas my dad was. Way like the trans people are coming for the kids kind of crap but at the same time he's a democrat and he hates Trump and he doesn't want anything to do with a lot of republican people and a lot of their stuff but he's also. Pro-life and not not pro-choice. He doesn't you know because he's catholic so he he believes everybody needs to have as many babies as possible. Be good catholics or whatever. Um, so like there's the the biggest things that I think that he does that I just don't understand are you know like the the. Pro-life then that's partially because like I'm not catholic so you know okay and then also the stuff like his his weird stuff about trans folkss and all of that and that I think is probably more generational than it is him being. An immigrant necessarily but also from the cultures that he came from like my awalita was actually going to be a catholic nun and she hadn't taken her vows yet when she met awalito and that ended up falling in love and then ah making a family instead. So like. 02:13:39.28 Jala The Catholic was really thrilled into him when he was growing up so roll. 02:13:47.73 Raul This despite the fact that he wouldn't exist if they were more Catholic Um I I don't talk to my parents about politics because it's yeah you know older. 02:14:05.10 Raul Older cubans are republicans a lot of them might actually hold liberal viewpoints on certain things but they are republican like there is no no possibility for them to to vote. Democrat because communism and because Kennedy ah the younger generation seems to lean a little more the other direction I believe Trump got 55% of the vote last election in Florida or of the. Cuban vote um, which is still not great for someone who probably thinks you're a rapist but but I think Antonio wants to say something. 02:14:57.21 Antonio Redgrave And yeah, when it comes to politics. Um, it's just one of those things where I too avoid talking politics with my parents for some just because it's very very stressful to talk with them about it for. Reasons I don't think have anything to do with culture honestly, it's just that my ah, it's just that at least 1 of my parents is incapable of having a calm discussion with anyone who disagrees and you know Raul knows this he is volunteered to listen to my parents talk for me multiple times. But. 02:15:32.50 Antonio Redgrave Um, but yeah I kind of hinted earlier at some other political beliefs. But it's ah it's really not great, but also it feels kind of like separate from like the culture issue like I guess the one way it could link to culture is that my ah mother's father. My maternal grandfather. Was um I don't know when this started but as far as I know through my mom. He was a staunch republican basically for at least as long as she ever knew him right? and you know he again. He was kind of very very very pilled on american patriotism and he was a staunch republican to the day he died. And the result is that my mom's a stach republican now and forever because her father was and like I guess I guess there is a conversation to be had about what my grandfather's experiences did Tim that caused him to be so thoroughly on a specific political spectrum. That also influenced my mother which then proceed to influence our upbringing and then also kind of directly define the poor relationship I have with my parents in a lot of ways. But I just know so little about that about the. Things leading up to that situation that there's really not much for me to say about it beyond that and. 02:16:47.68 Jala Yeah, my I know roul you need to say something as Well. I Just want to throw in real quick. My dad is probably democrat because you know his family growing up when he was brought over here. He was brought over by the government. And also you know I'm sure they receive some kind of government assistance and such when they were growing up So My dad is really liberal when it comes to a lot of social assistance stuff and outreach type stuff. Um, there are some aspects like I said that I think those those link more to his being old. You know, ah than anything else I do have an uncle who is a trumpite who is Cuban fully Cuban but is a trumpite and my dad just Butts heads with him and does not like that uncle like it all. 02:17:38.19 Raul Um, the same uncle that brought him to Miami. 02:17:41.90 Jala Ah, no, no, no, no, no, this is a different one. But anyway Raul you were going to say. 02:17:47.56 Raul Oh um, that I I actually really want to hear. Um one of Tony's mom's rants just because I would in my head thought of like here mom there's somebody who would love to hear your stance on student loan debt is is just so. Delicious to me like I just the the thought of being able to say that to my mom and then doing that is just hilarious. Um, but since since we're talking about the way like parents and and the culture and everything something that I and I realized we're running up on time we may edit this out. Um, something that I've been thinking about is that I I am trying to pass on ah my spanish and and my culture to my son but he's getting it from me which is already watered down and I'm worried that. 02:18:44.60 Raul Once he gets around to having children like there may not be there anymore like and within 2 generations my parents' culture will be gone but then I'm also as as much as I don't want that to happen I'm also conflicted because. You know on the other hand like how long should my descendants have to be outsiders in their own country. You know like there's ah, there's a balance but I don't know where it is. 02:19:10.79 Jala And you know I really wish that I can get you and Simon together to kind of chit-chat a little bit about that simone was on the diversity for the next generation episode. And we were talking about a particular book. But also we were talking about Simone's experiences as a father of a child you know here who is a person of color and um as he is um, child of immigrants as well. Ah, he would have a little bit more to say about that and the 2 of you would have a pretty good conversation about that I believe I of course do not have any children I physically cannot because of the cancer that I had but um, in either case like. Ah, maybe that might be like another episode to facilitate in the future and maybe have you and simonan to kind of ah chitchat about your experiences and everything we'll see we'll have to chit chat and see um if there's interest in that and also um. I'm sure there's a lot to talk about but like framing that up making an outline for that. So I think that is about all that I really wanted to cover on this episode and also we are we are definitely at time now. 02:20:28.16 Jala So ah, do you? Both have any kind of like wrap up thoughts for the subject matter of being you know a first generation american overall Tony I'm going to ask you first. 02:20:40.91 Antonio Redgrave And I'm not really sure what else there is to wrap up on my side. Honestly I I I Do think that the I do think it's interesting that at least comparing my experience to yours arrivals is that like. Like I said earlier there is that kind of like coming to the same conclusion from different steps. Um, which may which maybe highlights that I could be overthinking or overstating the differences. Um or maybe understating how culture has affected my upbringing and my family as Well. Um, but you know Raw I thought it was a really interesting conversation. It was really I Also want to say it was really cathartic for me to have that especially with both of you. So Thank you very much for that. 02:21:26.60 Jala Well thank both of you for being on because this is a subject that I more recently and came across a friend of my sister's and we were talking and just immediately had rapport because we were talking about these same subjects. So. Ah, Raul how about you any final thoughts. 02:21:47.54 Raul So of um I just wanted to I Guess thank you for having me On. Um I I I hadn't ever really had to think about this critically and the the time I spent preparing for for this episode I think really. Helped me sharpen a lot of of my thinking my self inception and everything and I think that was very very useful and I just wanted to say thanks for that. 02:22:39.54 Antonio Redgrave It is possible I am understating how much cultural um happenings affected the way I was raised and the way you know my parents were raised as well. Um, because it feels like all 3 of us had somewhat similar conclusions and events ah things that happened to us growing up but I kind of I kind of over I kind of under attribute them to culture possibly. 02:23:09.96 Raul One thing that I realized in my research here for this was that we don't really belong anywhere but because of that I think we're better at relating to individual people because we're not a monolith or I can I can relate. 02:23:45.59 Raul To a hispanic person because you know we do have some things in common I can relate to a white person because they do have something in common I can relate to the child of an Asian immigrant because we have things in common and I think that is. A good thing. 02:24:07.45 Jala Yeah I when I was growing up I've said it several times already but like because of that that not fitting in anywhere I always felt displaced because there wasn't um, a home for me if you will. You know, like there wasn't a place that I felt super comfortable and just wanted to stay and that that was like my my group you know I didn't have one of those I ended up as a result making my own groups out of different people like in high school I picked up a bunch of different people like somebody who had a speech impediment and you know like was ostracized for that. And somebody else who was just a loner because they were just really really quiet and you know different people who you know due to ethnicity due to personality due to whatever um other things they had going on didn't fit anywhere Else. You know they looked a little different or whatever they were in my group. And I made a group out of all the people who didn't fit anywhere else and you know we became our own thing and there's power in being able to do that. There's power in being able to relate to people and even when I so grew up and I became an adult. It was like oh well I. I'm in the running group and I'm only in the running group until I'm done. You know running Marathons now that I'm not running Marathons I don't talk to like any other people in the group except for like a couple of people and oh well I'm in the rocking group only until I'm done rocking and then you know like you don't have that interest anymore. But then you know even when I was in the group like even when I'm pole dancing. 02:25:32.31 Jala I am a Pollle dancer but I'm also a body buildilder so I'm like the biggest muscleliest person in the room and it's really you know like I'm not super lie I'm not small and you know, dainty and super flexible. So like there's a lot of stuff that I can't do and I feel like you know I'm the bodybuilder playing at being a pole dancer or something. You know? um, but because of that that means that I can relate to anybody because I do so many different things and I am I embody so many different things that it gives me the power to be in any group I want to be in. 02:26:04.26 Raul Yeah, it's it's like it's a disadvantage not fitting in completely anywhere. But it's an advantage in that you don't not fit in completely anywhere either. It's like a superpower right. 02:26:13.24 Jala Yeah, yeah, it is and it took a very very long time for me to get to that point where I realized I have that as a strength. It's not just a drawback. It's not just a feeling of being a loner and easily feeling displaced and out of place and wanting to retreat into myself because I don't fit in this group. You know it's not it. It means that I have the ability to fit anywhere and that's actually you know this podcast is part. Talking about media because it's fun and then talking about you know, really interesting and hard topics to talk about to self-exlore and kind of find you know a little bit more of yourself. You know and be more in contact with yourself so that you can also turn around and be more compassionate to other people so we'll end on that note. So um, usually I ask where people want to be found. You know where people can find you on the internet I don't know if you want to use that. And say yeah, you can find me at this place or if you would rather pimp out something that you want to promote but I will go ahead and toss to Tony Tony where can people find you on the internet or what do you want to promote. 02:27:31.58 Antonio Redgrave Ah, you can find me ah hidden in the void of the internet. You'll never see me again. Ah, that aside though, um I don't know support support a worthwhile cause I don't know like don't i't know don't need to plan Parenthood or you know, just. Just do do something good I can't promote anything on this episode for for reasons but per personal promotion but you know do I know do something good have a nice day. Um, buy yourself your favorite pizza and eat it.. That's what I want you to do. 02:28:01.17 Jala Oh my god now you're telling me that I need to go buy Meek's pizza that is like the best vegan pizza ever now I'm going to have to go buy a pizza damn it? 02:28:08.35 Antonio Redgrave Oh yeah, go ahead that sounds good idea is this the part is this the part where I forget that you're vegan. 02:28:12:34 Jala Yeah yes, it's the part where you forget I'm vegan again. Okay, Raul how about you. 02:28:22.43 Raul Ah, please don't find me I don't want to be found and there's not much there if you do find me so please don't Um, if anybody is interested in ah possibly. Transitioning into a vegan lifestyle. Ah you can buy some vitamins at Victualiv V I C T U A L I V Victualiv dot com and ah, that's it go do that. 02:28:53.96 Jala Yeah, well ah those are the vitamins that Dave and I consume so there is that they are great. I definitely recommend that you check them out and I will put a link in the show notes for anybody who is interested in having vegan vitamins. Also, of course you may find me and. Where I am to be found on the internet @jalachan and this podcast is at jalachan dot place. So thank you everybody for listening. Thank you both for coming on air and talking about these difficult subjects I appreciate you very much and from here. I want you to take care of yourself and remember to smile. [Show Outro] Jala Jala-chan's Place is brought to you by Fireheart Media. If you enjoyed the show, please share this and all of our episodes with friends and remember to rate and review us on your podcast platform of choice. Word of mouth is the only way we grow. If you like, you can also kick us a few bucks to help us keep the lights on at ko-fi.com/fireheartmedia. Check out our other show Monster Dear Monster: A Monster Exploration Podcast at monsterdear.monster. Music composed and produced by Jake Lionhart with additional guitars and mixed by Spencer Smith. Follow along with my adventures via jalachan.place or find me @jalachan in places on the net! [Outro Music]