Maria (05:07.554) I'm so excited to hear what you guys thought. You know, I had like mixed feelings about it because I hated Prometheus so much. And I mean, I kind of gave up. I gave up on it at some stage. was sort of like, you know, this is just horseshit at this point. But I quite liked this in terms of like, I just thought it was a fun TV show. Josephine Riesman (05:17.012) Yeah, sure. Josephine Riesman (05:22.721) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (05:34.036) I mean, yeah, it has promise. don't wanna, like I'm almost reluctant to pass any judgment on it, because we've only seen the first two episodes, you know. Hello! There you are. Maria (05:43.468) Wee-wah! Leila Brillson (05:46.727) Alright, alright, alright. That was the right... Here we go. Look, I'm wearing my Jonesy shirt. Maria (05:47.744) You're here. Maria (05:53.422) Whoa! You look amazing! It's so nice to see you! Leila Brillson (05:58.335) hi everybody. I just turned myself off. There we go. There we go. Sorry. There we go. Yay. This is so much fun. Josephine Riesman (05:59.244) Well, it was nice to see you there you go Maria (06:03.359) no. Yay. my God. I can't wait. I'm so glad you hated this TV show because I want to hear all about it. Josephine Riesman (06:05.333) Woo! Josephine Riesman (06:13.312) gives us something to talk about, I guess. Leila Brillson (06:14.913) it does. You know, Josie, I have to say that if there's anybody I'd like to go toe to toe with, it would be you. Josephine Riesman (06:22.636) I'm too tired. I don't want to have a fight today. I'm a lover, not a fighter. Leila Brillson (06:25.633) I know, I know, it's true. I would never, but... Maria (06:28.469) Wake up, Jersey. Josephine Riesman (06:30.336) Yeah, Maria's being paged. Maria (06:38.918) Okay, we're recording. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the flaming Hydra roundtable podcast. We are so yay. We are so excited to have Josephine Reisman and Lila Brilson with us today to discuss alien Earth, a very controversial TV show apparently, and I'm so excited to hear what everybody has to hear. I was not a fan after Prometheus. I wanted to like torpedo the entire thing into the sun. So I watched this. I can't wait to hear what everybody else has to say. Hi, you guys. Josephine Riesman (07:15.052) Hi! It's so nice to be here! Leila Brillson (07:16.373) Hi, this is a dream come true. Maria (07:17.996) Yeah. Okay, so I guess we should start out. Leela Josephine, please tell us your history with this franchise. We'll start with Leela. Tell us all about what you're Kind of like set the stage for us. Josephine Riesman (07:28.714) Yes, Leela you go first please. Leila Brillson (07:32.417) Okay, so, this is a franchise that I'm very well associated with in my personal life. Every time, is my favorite film series, point blank. I have not read the comics quite like Josie. Do you want Josie or Josephine? Josephine Riesman (07:49.452) Hmm. Josephine Riesman (07:55.446) Josie's fine in conversation. I just like being introduced as Josephine so people know where my books are. Yeah. Leila Brillson (07:59.137) Love it. So, you know, I have not touched into the comics, so Josie is a huge fan of them. But I really am somebody who has considered this very fully, and I feel very deeply that my opinion is right, that the first two are, course, like the first two alien, alien and aliens are, of course, like incredible cinematic experiences. But I also think that a lot of people we've Alien to the Third and Resurrection, Unfairly to the Wayside. And I think that both of those are really important in understanding both our relationship to science fiction, feminist science fiction, Hollywood's relationship to science fiction. And I think that, you know, every time I've, you know, I've had some people really just be like, Alien 3 is just not a good movie. And I've gone back with my most critical eye and it is a great It's just such a huge... The one that... Yeah, yeah. The one that David Fincher doesn't hate with all of his being. Josephine Riesman (08:59.468) The director's cut or like the workshop print or the theatrical cut. Josephine Riesman (09:12.156) Right, I hesitate to call it a director's cut because it's not exactly that, but it was a less compromised version of it. Okay, go on, go on, I'm just curious. Leila Brillson (09:15.041) because he didn't cut it, yeah. Yes. And I just, and I was so excited for, and I have, I have complicated feelings about Prometheus. It's grown on me in the years at the time I hated it. But I don't love covenant, but I quite like covenant. I thought 75 % of Romulus was very good. I thought 25 % of it was super hackneyed. And I've never played isolation, but I believe it's a part of the alien oeuvre simply because... Yeah, you can have isolation. I'll keep resurrection or something. Josephine Riesman (09:54.124) Oh, it's huge now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll cover that, but you finish up. Josephine Riesman (10:02.856) That's fine, that's fine. Tell us about your essay though, because the essay was so good. Maria (10:07.33) Yeah, I'd like to break in and tell everybody here, Leela wrote a beautiful essay called Birth of the Alien, I'm Playing Hydra, that before you listen to this, you should just go and freaking read it because it's fucking amazing. So. Leila Brillson (10:08.653) So. Josephine Riesman (10:19.818) It's a very, very good essay and I'd love it if you would sort of summarize a little bit of what he talked about in that. Leila Brillson (10:25.959) Yeah, I mean, I really looked at Alien 3 as being this really interesting horror of what it is like to give birth. It is this birth narrative that really helped me kind of parse the body horror of being pregnant and kind of accept the fact that Maria (10:26.029) Yeah. Leila Brillson (10:55.577) you can come into pregnancy on your own. Obviously Ripley was forced in pre-pregnation, but she took her own, she took her life into her own hands and like, you know, made the choice and ended up becoming a mother in her own very sick and perverse way. And that kind of helped me parse my own feelings about being pregnant, which I did not like. And... Maria (11:19.55) my God, can I just break in here and say how much I love that? Because I was the same. I was surrounded by women who were like, la la la, the life within me. And I'm like, please, no. There's like a person growing in your body. Leila Brillson (11:30.186) And there is a person growing in your body. It may, was implanted a different way besides your mouth, right? Like, whereas you have a face hugger coming in and implanting via your mouth. And it, like, I just could not stop thinking about alien throughout my pregnancy. So I wrote a little bit about that and wrote a little bit about how, you know, how I... Josephine Riesman (11:50.528) Yeah. Leila Brillson (11:57.281) appreciate the ending of Alien 3 so much because she was like, I'm gonna do this my own way. I'm going to like not, know, whereas everyone. Josephine Riesman (12:06.89) I hope you didn't leap into a pile of flaming lava just as you gave birth. You seem to have recovered from your burns, if so, but... Yeah. Yeah, emotionally that actually is a pretty good metaphor for what it's like to give birth. Leila Brillson (12:11.625) I mean, emotionally, somehow. Maria (12:13.228) Yeah, that's exactly how it works, Josie. Maria (12:20.524) Hell yeah. Leila Brillson (12:20.573) Mm-hmm. And that's what I was saying. And I didn't, I had no interest in, I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant either. Kind of like Ripley, right? Like I don't really realize she was pregnant, but I didn't really, but I thought about that like in my own, like, you know, in my own way. So anyway, that speaks to my own personal experience with Alien 3. But I've been talking for a while. I would love to hear Josie about your and. Josephine Riesman (12:29.781) Right. Josephine Riesman (12:46.752) me, yeah, sure. I'd love to talk about it. I saw Alien and Aliens in order at way too young an age. I was the kind of kid whose parents had way too much faith in them to moderate my own media intake. So when I was in about fifth grade, I think I saw I rented from MTL video, RIP MTL in Oak Park, Illinois, a VHS of Alien. Leila Brillson (12:50.164) Yes. Josephine Riesman (13:16.672) We had a special deal. Like my parents had called the owner of this independent video store to be like, okay, our child can go and get R rated movies as long as you think they are of artistic merit and are not just, so like they were kind of deputized this video store clerk to determine what was appropriate, which is not necessarily the best thing for a child, but. Maria (13:36.59) That is the coolest thing I've ever heard. Leila Brillson (13:36.865) I love that. Leila Brillson (13:41.186) It's great. Maria (13:41.934) I think it is the best thing. Josephine Riesman (13:41.992) It was great. I saw a lot of great movies way too early as a result of this clerk being like, yeah, sure, this one's artistic value. There you go. You can watch this. And so alien. Maria (13:52.0) I wanna know more about that. Like, why do you think? Leila Brillson (13:52.235) I almost, have you found this clerk? Yeah, I want you to interview. Josephine Riesman (13:55.678) No, I don't even remember what his name was. It was so long ago. Unlike the comic book shop, which is still there in Oak Park, Illinois with the same owner in the same building. MTL Video has gone the way of the dodo a long, long time ago. But I rented Alien and folks, I had seen Ghostbusters a million times because my dad loved it. So I was familiar with Sigourney Weaver. Maria (13:59.598) Yeah. Maria (14:10.894) to. Josephine Riesman (14:21.782) But I realized I wasn't familiar with Sigourney Weaver until I saw Alien. And I was like, here's this woman who I already have this positive association with, right? Like, cause she's my favorite part of Ghostbusters. And as a trans woman, I guess that's not the most surprising thing, but like giving out misogynists to everybody else is. But seeing her in Alien, it was like, wow, they actually let her act in this one. Cause like Ghostbusters, Sigourney Weaver barely, like she's, Leila Brillson (14:37.364) No. Josephine Riesman (14:51.36) I'm not saying she's phoning it in, but they don't give her a lot of meat to that character, you know? She's just there as a romantic foil for Bill Murray 90 % of the time. And so seeing Alien was this revelation. I was like, I think it was also the first time I'd ever seen Harry Dean Stanton in anything, Yaffit Koto. It was this incredible, John Hurt. No, I'd seen John Hurt in Contact. I'd seen John Hurt in Contact. I take that back. But seeing that movie was a really... Maria (14:56.046) She's very, very Yeah. Josephine Riesman (15:20.672) I hate to say this as a trans woman, but a seminal experience for me. It was something that really locked me into a vision of femininity that was completely unknown to me before, even in depictions of Sigourney Weaver, as I had seen in Ghostbusters and Ghostbusters 2. She was this different kind of woman whose woman-ness was both intrinsic to why she was interesting, but also not the plot of the story. You know, it wasn't like a girl's coming of age on a spaceship, you know, and it wasn't she gets raped on the spaceship. It was just I mean, famously, you know, the lore is that the character was conceived of as a man and they were like, let's just gender swap this. And it leads now that doesn't always work in fiction. But when you have somebody of the caliber of Sigourney Weaver and of Ridley Scott handling that situation, it ends up being this marvelous thing. So Alien was a huge experience for me. Leila Brillson (15:52.886) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (16:18.216) Aliens I then watched and absolutely was riveted by and as time went on I've just never stopped being a low level but very enthusiastic fan and I could talk for days and days about all the aliens media that I've consumed but the most important stuff to me tends to be the video game Alien Isolation which Layla said she had not played, but is Leila Brillson (16:48.457) I only have it because I live alone. Josephine Riesman (16:51.774) I'm not a gamer, I'm not really a gamer, but like that game was so good and I care so much about that narrative space that I played it all the way through to the end. On the easiest mode, let's be honest here, but still I hardly ever do that. And the other is the comics, which we will get back to. But yes, Maria. Maria (17:08.866) Just everyone. We will get back to the comments, but I want to, I, said something that I'm really curious about, which is that you saw this too early. Like, what do you mean? What would have been the right thing to do? So what? Josephine Riesman (17:22.888) Well, I wasn't quite ready. I say too early insofar as I probably was mildly traumatized by the violence and gore. and not just that, but the psychological horror of it, which is how boy get pregnant. Like that's, that's the entirety of the concept. The libidinal concept of alien is what if men could get pregnant from rape? That's it. Leila Brillson (17:41.045) We are here. Leila Brillson (17:51.939) And additionally. Josephine Riesman (17:52.756) What if men could get pregnant from rape? That's the nugget of it. And then beyond that, you get so much more interesting stuff. But the nugget was terrifying for me as a child, growing up, a nab, you know, as a little boy, seeing these images of rape and pregnancy that were specifically directed at bodies like mine, which I was not used to. I was not used to that. So that was what was, think, I'm not saying it was bad, but I say it was like, Leila Brillson (17:56.777) I also... Josephine Riesman (18:21.196) Seeing it that early, think may have influenced me in ways that are, I don't know, maybe I should have waited a couple of years, but I'm glad I saw it when I did because it gave me more time to love Sigourney Weaver. Leila Brillson (18:33.257) I absolutely feel like that's still so interesting. think it's even more interesting in the year of our Shrimp Jesus 2025, right? I think that that is a really rich topic. And maybe this is a good way to segue into the show because they kind of leave that behind. What if Boy get pregnant, like that kind of horror? Maria (18:33.326) What do you think about that, Leela? Josephine Riesman (18:57.268) Leave which part behind? Yeah, yeah, yeah Maria (19:01.612) you Leila Brillson (19:02.497) And one of the things that is interesting and perhaps why I resonate with the latter two of the quadrilogy is that the first two movies, we bring the context of gender onto Ripley, right? Josephine Riesman (19:20.214) Sure, cause she's not- well, the second movie there's a lot of gender in there, I'd say. Leila Brillson (19:25.397) There are, once again, I think a lot of it though, we bring with our subgroups. Josephine Riesman (19:30.134) We definitely, you are right, you're right. I would say the first one, is no gender in the script. You are bringing it all to it. The second one, they give you a little, but you run with it. So I completely agree with that. Leila Brillson (19:36.33) Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever been mistaken as a man, Vasquez? I don't know. Have you? Yeah. No. Those like great, know, but the second two, her gender is a core part of the story. Like her being a woman is a core part of the story. Whereas like they just, it just isn't in the first two, right? Like her being a survivor and her being a civilian is important and like kind of steps in for a woman. Josephine Riesman (19:44.434) I don't know, have you? Yeah, exactly, yes. Maria (19:47.448) It's so great. Josephine Riesman (19:57.526) Yes. Yes. Leila Brillson (20:08.393) in the first and the second and the first one is just like not there at all. Whereas I think that we're just not seeing there's just the whole, you know, one of the things I love about the series is that, you know, to quote, drill like the whole thing smacks of gender. And I feel like Josephine Riesman (20:27.146) You don't think there's gender in Alien Earth? What are you, crazy? Leila Brillson (20:30.995) I don't know. Let's talk about it. Let's get it. Let's talk about it. What do you Josephine Riesman (20:33.758) It's all about, it's like, it's one of those classic, now look, I'm not saying it's perfect, because one of these, it's Noah Hawley doing the classic, sis-het-sci-fi-guy thing of going, whoa, whoa, whoa, I just had the craziest idea. What if you could change your body, but keep your mind the same? And it's like, yeah, you mean transition? Like, this is not so, I don't think the series is as much about motherhood so far. Maria (20:33.832) One, two. Leila Brillson (20:56.138) Yes! Josephine Riesman (21:03.498) that aspect of femininity, but it's very much speaking to me as a trans person with this weird idea of like, well, are you the ship of Theseus? If you change everything about your body, what are you? Is the brain separate from the body? Like these are all questions that come up in the trans discourse. So I would say the show smacks of a lot of gender just been very different ways from how the quadrilogy did. Leila Brillson (21:03.509) Yeah. Maria (21:05.261) It's. Maria (21:08.556) woman. Leila Brillson (21:08.756) That Leila Brillson (21:26.707) Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Maria (21:28.32) It's sort of more, it seems, I do too, and it seems to me sort of less sophisticated than the films are though. Like the films deal with like motherhood and womanhood. And I, again, I urge everybody to read Lula's piece, but like right from the beginning, like this starts with kind of an objectivization of a female body. Remember they're in that, they're having whatever meal and there's some guys staring. Josephine Riesman (21:53.744) Mr. Tang, the synthetic is staring at one. Yeah, who knows what that'll lead to, but yeah, yeah, that was a weird thing to start with. will... Leila Brillson (21:54.261) Yeah. That's synthetic. That better pay off. Maria (21:56.524) Yeah, they immediately, they immediately, yeah, they start with this. They start with this sort of like, and so I'm seeing just women written all over these first two things, as sister, as like a maternal presence, like Wendy Darling is in Peter Pan. You know, they're bringing this like sort of relatively conventional idea of girlhood. Josephine Riesman (22:13.932) Yeah. Maria (22:23.54) and womanhood into what I think was a much more sophisticated notion of mother and female in the films. Josephine Riesman (22:32.596) Nobody's pregnant yet. We've only seen two episodes. Leila Brillson (22:34.305) Well, Maria and Josie both, think you guys, I think you're right about that in particular of the notion of like literal transgender swapping. And I think that's really important. And I also think that that's like core to sci-fi, right? I'm glad to hear that. Josephine Riesman (22:52.012) I'd like to step in and say it's core to the Alien franchise because canonically since the 80s, I only learned this recently, this is only canonical in backup material, but Lambert, the other woman on the ship, on the Nostromo in Alien, is trans. You can look this up. They made that up in the 80s as part of like a guidebook or a source book or something. But transness has been in the Alien franchise since 1979. Leila Brillson (23:06.303) I believe it. Leila Brillson (23:15.943) And what if man get pregnant? Josephine Riesman (23:18.304) Yeah, which is one of the more trans questions you can ask. Right. Leila Brillson (23:21.664) Right. No, and I totally get that. think I mean, I'm glad, first of all, I want to see it engage more to Maria's point richly with that. But in terms of like unpacking, like, know, feminine forms of reproduction, there's, there is like, I think Maria's right, it just doesn't have that depth yet. Yes, we are two episodes in, but like, Josephine Riesman (23:31.499) yeah! Leila Brillson (23:51.969) And, you know, screenwriters, instructors that I've had before, like, you win people in your pilot. Like, if you don't have a killer pilot, name a classic TV show that doesn't have a killer pilot. Don't actually, because I'm sure there's one. Yeah. Josephine Riesman (24:05.236) Yeah, there's actually plenty of them, but yeah. But this one, not in this age, not in this day and age. If you don't have a killer pilot in the attention economy, no one's gonna stick around. You can't do a bad first two seasons of Star Trek, The Next Generation anymore, you know? Leila Brillson (24:16.192) Yeah. Maria (24:21.326) Well, I'm interested. I'm gonna watch this. I'm interested. I mean, I'm interested because you guys are into it, but I'm also, I watched it and I thought this is like a TV show. It's like a science fiction TV show of a conventionally appealing kind with charming, attractive kids in the main roles. know, I like the relationship between the brother and sister. It was kind of a sweet thing where he realizes his turn. He's quizzing her about what did you say to me? Leila Brillson (24:21.375) And I think, yeah, yeah, that's fair. Leila Brillson (24:32.021) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (24:45.163) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (24:49.962) Yeah, yeah. Maria (24:51.244) all that stuff and it's kind of like it was familiar you know in a TV familiar in a way that I didn't not enjoy I enjoyed it but I just didn't think it Leila Brillson (24:55.55) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (24:59.83) Well, but you were not, I feel like the elephant in the room here, the alien specimen in the room is like, we're talking about this being sweet and conventional, but Jesus God, the new innovations in alien parasitic biotechnology, I thought were fascinating. And I thought that the idea that Holly is having, which is saying we don't have enough aliens in aliens, is the exact right mode. Because if we just had to deal with a xenomorph, Maria (25:17.931) Thank you. Leila Brillson (25:18.219) So. Josephine Riesman (25:29.088) for a whole goddamn season, it would be boring as shit. You have to go bigger. And I think it's been a long ass time, basically since resurrection, that we've had like a real genuine stab at like, here's some real high profile new creatures. Like you have in Prometheus, this creature that sort of is implied to develop into the xenomorph. And even in resurrection, it's like a hybrid human xenomorph. Here we're getting, I don't know what the hell these specimens are. Maria (25:33.048) Yeah, now, we'll say. Leila Brillson (25:34.73) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (25:58.956) Yeah, these like weird eyeball things and the blood bag and all of that. Oh yes, trigger warning for cat lovers, at the 25 minute mark, I timed it out for all of you, at the 25 minute mark of episode two, a cat dies in a very gruesome way, you can just skip ahead to 2630 and just know the cat died. That's all you need to know. Leila Brillson (25:59.369) intervals. Leila Brillson (26:03.039) Yeah. Leila Brillson (26:23.423) And though fortunately it's a really CG cat too. Josephine Riesman (26:26.9) It's very obviously CGI cat, if you're easily triggered by cat death, be prepared. I am too, so yeah. Leila Brillson (26:31.617) Oh, I am, but there's, I want to just bring up really quickly the things I did like, because I'm going to then turn around and talk about the things that I thought were like, that like people are, because I will go on and say I did not like it. But the things I did like were the concept of Josephine Riesman (26:39.606) Please. Josephine Riesman (26:52.086) Alright. Leila Brillson (26:56.893) young people in the body of superheroes, not within the alien universe. Like that's a new idea. And Bless bring in some new ideas. I think that that's really rich reminding. And the second thing is I like more monsters, right? Like the fauna on board. I thought that it was really, that's what I want, right? Like I want to know more about this world. I want to know more about these like Josephine Riesman (27:12.118) Right. Leila Brillson (27:26.163) ultimate creatures. We've been told over and over and over again that these are perfect. Josephine Riesman (27:27.576) Mm-hmm. that the only killing machine with that level of lethality is the xenomorphs, but like, right. Leila Brillson (27:34.036) Yeah, they're perfect machines or perfect specimens, etc, etc. And I want and I think that there's a lot of cool stuff to explore there. But yeah, so those are the things I really did like. So Josie, I completely agree with you. I want I want more beasties. Josephine Riesman (27:53.952) Yeah, I want more beasties, I want more transness, I want more post-humanism. I mean, that's, we were texting, Lila and I, about the addition of this sort of couple new categories of semi-synthetic humans, where you have cyborgs who are fully human except that they've had implants. And then you have the synthetics, which we're familiar with, like Ian Holm in Alien and... Let's just pretend he was only an alien. And then now we have this other sort of middle ground where you have human minds being put into synthetic bodies in order to defeat death. Leila Brillson (28:25.704) You Maria (28:34.444) which is what people are talking about, which is what all these like creepo tech freaks are talking about actually being a possibility of what they would actually want to do. That weirdo Johnson just said. Leila Brillson (28:37.224) And yeah. Josephine Riesman (28:39.252) Right. Josephine Riesman (28:44.076) Correct. Correct. It's all an idea ripped off from like the Twilight Zone and there's like, I think we all remember that episode. Leila Brillson (28:46.089) Right. Right. Maria (28:52.494) What's the brain in the jar with a smoking lady? What the hell? This is desirable? I ask you. Josephine Riesman (28:56.48) Yeah, they were... Leila Brillson (28:59.713) But I have to say, if we are assuming that any part of alien is still canon, we know that doesn't work. Because we know that the synths don't become, because we never hear prodigy again. We have to assume true. Josephine Riesman (29:10.004) Which part doesn't work? Josephine Riesman (29:14.508) yeah. I don't, we don't know how much he's staying in canon. That's always the fun, exciting meta dance with Noah Hawley. And I've been on that dance a bunch of times, whether it was with Fargo or Legion. Yeah. Maria (29:16.834) Wait, no more. Leila Brillson (29:23.989) Holy. Maria (29:26.83) Can you guys explain why- Leila Brillson (29:28.161) or Legion. And the thing is, the thing about Legion... Maria (29:30.126) I don't really know the Lord. what's the, Josephine Riesman (29:32.746) You don't know the lore of which. Maria (29:36.608) Why is it, why don't the synths... Josephine Riesman (29:39.946) Well, we would probably have seen these human minds in robot bodies in the future installments if they're staying in Canon. I don't know what uses Canon as a toy box as opposed to a prison. I don't think like I, my guess, I hope my biggest problem with the fucking Prometheus slash covenant duology. Leila Brillson (29:40.62) We just don't see them. Josephine Riesman (30:05.508) is making humans responsible for the creation of the xenomorphs, which is Leila Brillson (30:10.227) making the engineers. Josephine Riesman (30:12.828) No, but like then at the end of Prometheus, it's like this sort of semi human thing, right? I haven't seen Prometheus in forever, but at the end, the the first xenomorph, like we see this creature created by the engineers, and then eventually the first xenomorph is born at the end and it's like human made and we're supposed to be like, dear God, it was us all the time. And it's like, who cares? That's that completely ruins the whole point. The point is, it's supposed to be what they are talking about in this Leila Brillson (30:19.363) right. Josephine Riesman (30:41.92) series, which implies to me that they're not going to go with that canon, which is these are invasive species. These are and look, every sci fi is either a reaction to or recapitulation of the colonial encounter. And what we're talking about here is smallpox and starlings and frogs and bad things showing up that are invasive species. Leila Brillson (30:48.385) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (31:07.454) in the new world and wiping out people to an extent that the entire global climate cooled a little bit. Like that's what he's playing with here is that we are in genocidal times and the things that can accelerate a genocide are often non-human and humans have no control over them. And they often kill lots and lots of humans, including humans who think that the disease is on their side. So anyway, I just like where they're going with this. Maria (31:30.807) I feel it. I feel like the... go on, Leila, I'm sorry. Leila Brillson (31:33.858) And I think what you're saying is absolutely correct about sci-fi. I like, I'm picking up what you're putting down. I think you're giving it too much credit. Josephine Riesman (31:46.314) Well, we don't know yet. I mean, we haven't seen enough of it. What makes you think I'm giving it too much credit so far? Maria (31:49.346) Yeah. Leila Brillson (31:53.459) Well, here's the thing is that I think that there are a we know that once again, I'm assuming that at least parts of alien are staying intact, right? Like we're assuming that these creatures don't destroy life on Earth as we know it, right? And instead are. Josephine Riesman (32:12.542) Remind me where this is in the timeline because I can't remember Maria (32:15.566) It's like two years before. Leila Brillson (32:15.701) This is supposed to be two years before alien. Josephine Riesman (32:20.448) That's impossible. Maria (32:21.784) two years before the Nostromo. And excuse me, shout out to the art direction because they reconstructed another chip in the fleet of the Nostromo in a way that I just was agog. I like barely even took a breath. It was so beautiful. They like, my God, it's like worth it just for that. Sorry, go on. Leila Brillson (32:22.315) supposed to Yes. Josephine Riesman (32:34.856) It was gorgeous. Leila Brillson (32:37.409) The games. Josephine Riesman (32:38.484) Yeah, Noah cares a lot about practical effects. mean, famously in Legion in that scene in the pilot where David, what's his name? Dan Stevens grips his head and has a telekinetic attack and all of the silverware in the room in the kitchen starts flying. I interviewed Holly and he was like, that was real silverware. We did not do CGI silverware for that. I wanted it to be an explosion of stuff and we threw a bunch of silverware in the air. So yeah, go on. Leila Brillson (32:49.568) Mm-hmm. Leila Brillson (33:02.495) I love that. Leila Brillson (33:07.908) Then... Then why is the xenomorph not more wet? One thing we know about xenomorphs is that they are damp. Those are damp creatures. Uh, you just think shiny. I don't know. I mean... Hey, yeah, you gotta... Josephine Riesman (33:16.428) They seemed damp enough to me. Were they not damp enough for you? Maria (33:20.046) They weren't, yeah, they were kind of like metal. They look like a C3PO. Josephine Riesman (33:21.939) all right. Leila Brillson (33:27.488) A little bit, a little bit. I have to say, so going back to what you were saying about the concept of genocide, I just don't feel like the population, the thing is to me, effective sci-fi takes really complex issues and tells a very simple story. And this is just like throwing everything at the wall a little bit. The other thing that I had a huge problem with, and this is the primary reason I didn't like it, is that I just thought the writing was bad. I just did, yeah, just thought the writing, like you do not need a monologue explaining your themes. You do not need to tell me you're a boy genius. Show me you're a boy genius. Josephine Riesman (34:05.43) Really? Yeah! Leila Brillson (34:19.093) You do not need to sit and say, I wrote down this line where he was like, everyone thinks it's about money with trillionaires. And I was like, does everyone think that? that what we think? Josephine Riesman (34:19.788) Thank Josephine Riesman (34:28.692) No, you're having the right reaction, Leela. You're doing what Noah wants you to do. You're complimenting the show. He's lying. He's not telling you the themes of the show. He's telling you what billionaires think and you're supposed to be having the reaction you just had. Noah won. Leila Brillson (34:30.88) Bye! Maria (34:32.393) It's cannot. It's cannot. Maria (34:41.729) No, Leila Brillson (34:41.789) And then the, what's his name? Leith? Maria (34:45.294) I want to split the difference, you know, with boy, he called him boy cavalier. Okay. It's like a really camp. It's got elements of almost like phantom of the paradise type of a feeling to it. Like where it's like really goofy. Josephine Riesman (34:47.488) What? Leila Brillson (34:50.878) Yeah. really camp. Josephine Riesman (34:58.858) You two are watching a different show than I'm watching. Like, I'm glad we only have a few minutes left, because I don't have the energy to defend it any more than to say it's way better than either of you think it is. Maria (35:02.08) Cool. Leila Brillson (35:03.317) Do it. Maria (35:09.922) Boy cavalier, I ask you. That's like so cheesy. I'm sorry, Gwendolyn. Leila Brillson (35:10.529) That is- Leila Brillson (35:14.507) I mean, how would you defend the fact that in this incredible world where we can really make up everything, we're looking at the seminal 2000s text, Ice Age Continental Drift, to signify emotional connection between two people? Josephine Riesman (35:30.752) because that's how people relate. Leila Brillson (35:33.334) Right. But I also think that like, just, it just feels like in this world, you know, it feels like they're just kind of showing off a little bit of the Disney catalog, including the Disney, that like the actual Peter Pan, which like, come on, that is a hat on a hat on a hat. And I'd like, you know, what you do, you, you don't need, I have a cat coming in saying, let's interrupt this. Josephine Riesman (35:46.774) Peter Pan. Josephine Riesman (35:52.521) Alright. Josephine Riesman (35:58.708) Nothing wrong with the cat, as long as the cat doesn't have a parasite in its eye, I'm fine with it. Leila Brillson (36:01.953) You never know. So I wrote down the other thing, Kirsch, the Timothy Oliphant, which who I have to say is chewing scenery in a way I do enjoy and why I will continue watching that's very, and is the most charismatic character to me on the whole show. But that monologue, you you used to be just meat. You used to be food. Josephine Riesman (36:12.2) Yeah, the synthetic played by Timothy Oliphant. Josephine Riesman (36:17.354) Yeah, he's great. He's great. Josephine Riesman (36:23.136) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (36:28.682) You used to be food. You used to be food. It was a great monologue. Okay. Leila Brillson (36:31.605) Like, I mean, you, I don't agree because it's just like, here's the theme. We've made you better. Like, come on, you're just talking about like, you're going back to Frankenstein, except Frankenstein said this like in a much more interesting way. There were just like, you know, whenever somebody says something along the lines of like, man could get this day get any worse. Like I've just, I'm like, come on, you can do better. We have. We do not need these things explained. Fargo did this beautifully. you know, to just show us, show us a boy genius. Don't tell us that you're a boy genius. You know, show us. Maria (37:10.382) I'm the boy genius. Josephine Riesman (37:11.018) No, you guys are fucking missing the point. What is wrong with you? He's not a boy genius. You're having the right reaction. You are reading the show negatively despite having the reaction that the show wants you to have. Maria (37:14.158) Alright, let's have it. Maria (37:25.198) I know we're not supposed to like him, we're supposed to think he's Elon Musk or whatever. Leila Brillson (37:29.641) Yes, or. Josephine Riesman (37:31.018) No, but we're supposed to think he calls himself Boy Genius, and we're calling him Boy Genius on the show textually, everyone thinks he's a Boy Genius, but it's dramatic irony because he's a moron. Maria (37:39.798) I know, but it's canopy. Leila Brillson (37:40.256) Right, but I think, well, he shows us that very clearly in his speech where he's like, you know, people think it's about billionaires for us, but I just really want to have a conversation. And you're like, you know, don't, intelligent conversation, you, I mean, that is spelling out, I'm a dumb character who you're supposed to hate, and this is why, in just like really bald-faced terms. Like, Josephine Riesman (37:47.637) Right! Maria (37:53.452) Finally, we want to have an intelligent conversation. It's it's boring. Maria (38:02.903) Yeah. Maria (38:06.562) My favorite. Josephine Riesman (38:06.846) At least they're not anti-semitic terms like Aliens, one of your beloved films. Yes, Paul Reiser plays Carter Burke as a deeply anti-semitic stereotype, and we let that movie off the hook all the fucking time. Maria (38:11.754) You know who did that perfectly? Leila Brillson (38:11.765) Are they anti-semitic drugs? yeah, it's a bit too late. Maria (38:21.698) You know who did this perfectly, Leila Brillson (38:21.921) That's because Polarizer's a mensch. Josephine Riesman (38:24.595) I love Paul Reiser. I've interviewed him multiple times and I love that he plays him as an anti-Semitic stereotype, but nobody ever wrangles with that. No one ever talks about that. Maria (38:31.008) Yeah. Grandma's boy. I want to shout out to Grandma's boy who had the best boy genius, non-genius. Do you guys remember riding around on the Segway? Did you guys see Grandma's boy? They've got a perfect... What? You are so fired right now. god. You have to see Grandma's boy. Ugh. I'm so upset. Alright. Leila Brillson (38:31.553) That's a fair, mean, I think that. Leila Brillson (38:46.163) No. Josephine Riesman (38:46.248) No, I did not. Why would I see grandma's boy? No offense, but I did know that was part of the cult canon. Maria (38:58.158) have to see Grandma's way. But anyway, there's a great camp boy genius in that thing where he's horrible and irritating in a very similar way, but is actually comical in a way that they just didn't sell the comedy to me on this in a way that I wish I would have done, but I'm very willing to watch the next episode and see. Josephine Riesman (39:00.502) Okay. Leila Brillson (39:21.512) yeah, I mean, I'm into it. The things that make me mad about it are like, make me mad in a way that I'm glad that I'm engaging with them. And Josie, I just wanna be absolutely clear here. I think everything you're saying is like, your points are so safe. Yeah, and I want to argue with you forever on this. I think that your points are brilliant. I don't think you're wrong. Josephine Riesman (39:30.07) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (39:34.752) Yes! I think everything you're saying is mostly right. Yeah. Leila Brillson (39:51.083) but I also think I'm right. I want to... Yeah, yeah. Josephine Riesman (39:54.292) And that's the best source of podcasting, isn't it? You know, I don't think you're wrong, but I know that I'm right. That's right. Leila Brillson (40:00.541) Exactly. I just, you know, I think that there is, I hope we get more about the... Maria (40:00.558) Yeah Leila Brillson (40:12.739) on the name of the ship, French word. Josephine Riesman (40:15.828) of the Maginot. Leila Brillson (40:17.173) The Maginot. The Maginot. Maria (40:17.197) My son Josephine Riesman (40:18.752) Which is a very pregnant word given what the Maginot line was, but... Maria (40:22.324) Explain for our listeners. Leila Brillson (40:22.753) What? Yeah, here we go. Josephine Riesman (40:24.926) the Maginot Line was the supposedly impenetrable line of defense that the French set up against the Germans, which went down in a matter of hours. Leila Brillson (40:37.065) See, this is why, like, you can't be Josie on this podcast. See, I didn't know that. And the ship names in A-Land are real. Josephine Riesman (40:42.966) They mean things. They pick those very specifically. And the idea of the Maginot Line, this thing where everyone thinks, we're fine. We have a protective border. Nothing can penetrate it. And then all of a sudden this giant dick ship penetrates your atmosphere and impregnates you with the worst things imaginable. Leila Brillson (41:01.729) My other, I think I texted this to you, my other suspension of disbelief is that this is such a technologically advanced world. You're able to do faster than light travel. You're able to do cryo sleep. And you can't send a message to Earth to be like, there's a ship coming towards a major city. Can you torpedo it? And they just let it crash into a giant building filled with rich people. Maria (41:23.854) Wow, good point. Okay, this is a thing that I would like to ask you guys to remember around time. This was one of the things I wrote down. The idea of alien consistently, like the one thing that's been really consistent is this is an unstoppable force coming for us. How do we in this day and age in 2025 parse that message from this TV show? Leila Brillson (41:38.109) Mm-mm. Josephine Riesman (41:38.603) Yeah. Leila Brillson (41:49.739) What a question. Josephine Riesman (41:51.542) I don't know exactly where they're gonna go with it, but that is perennially the metaphor you say, what is the unstoppable force that's really fucking me up? What is this unstoppable thing that I need to reckon with? And that's gonna be my alien story. And I don't exactly know where they're going with it here on this one. I'd love for it to be what I suspect it might be, which is the unstoppable force is... the human innovation, the human instinct for trying to build technology. Like, I think that that's going to be at least one of the metaphors that the xenomorphs are working for is our unbeliever, because that's what the elephant character says is like, you got bigger brains and you started building tools and you thought you weren't food anymore. Well, what if the tools started making you food again? Leila Brillson (42:24.842) I wouldn't meet. Josephine Riesman (42:45.912) And I know as I see the de-skilling and the disruption in a negative way that comes from chat GPT, we're making ourselves food again. And I think that that's something that this might end up being partially about, given that they are playing with artificial intelligence and post-humanism. Maria (43:02.21) Leela, wrap it up for us. Leila Brillson (43:02.451) I mostly agree. I think that that's true. I always like to take out the monster and think about what the story is actually about. And the story is about a oligarchic, techno-oligarchic class that is playing with the lives of the workers, which has been also a part of Alien over and over and over again. Josephine Riesman (43:12.598) Sure. Josephine Riesman (43:23.722) Right. Josephine Riesman (43:31.286) Sure, since the beginning, it's very, I'm curious to see what they do with this whole very television-y rival houses thing. You know, I mean, you can't do a big epic sci-fi or fantasy thing now without having rival houses. You gotta have people fighting for the throne of something or other, so. Leila Brillson (43:32.768) Okay. Leila Brillson (43:40.809) Great. Leila Brillson (43:46.197) Having rival houses, you gotta have a rival house. Yeah. And I'm glad that we finally got to see Yutani. Right. Which, which if we once again look at alien as canon, we know that Wayland has a hostile takeover of Yutani. Yeah, there's Wayland has a hostile takeover of Yutani, but keeps the name. Yeah. Yeah. Josephine Riesman (43:55.34) Yeah, or at least one of the Yutani's. Who the hell knows who the Yutani's are, but that's the head Yutani. Josephine Riesman (44:09.776) is that it? didn't know that. Interesting. Josephine Riesman (44:16.566) Keeps the name Wayland-Yutani. Interesting. Maria (44:20.216) We want our monsters back. Leila Brillson (44:20.629) So. Josephine Riesman (44:32.008) No, not me. I say, I call not it. Leila Brillson (44:35.061) Josie! Maria (44:35.799) You go, Leela. Leila Brillson (44:42.986) Maria, as the- Josephine Riesman (44:43.404) I don't know what to say, I can't remember it bead for bead. guess we could... Leila Brillson (44:46.099) Maria, as the host, maybe you should do it. Maria (44:49.646) Okay, I will try. right, so. Josephine Riesman (44:53.086) It doesn't have to be longer than like a paragraph, I don't think. I mean, we don't want to spoil it. I actually think that it's better if we just have the details here because we spoiled so much that like, why are we recapping? Who are we recapping it for? Maria (44:59.15) Can we just write it? Maria (45:04.169) Yeah. I think. Maria (45:26.126) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (45:27.402) I don't listen to recap shows, so I don't know what's industry standard. Maria (45:30.382) Yeah, I don't know what we're doing actually. I just love talking with you guys and I think this is very compelling. Anyway, hopefully we left. Josephine Riesman (45:35.51) Yeah. Leila Brillson (45:35.841) I mean, I can take a stab at it you don't want to do it. Josephine Riesman (45:43.796) I'm Leila Brillson (45:44.267) But I do think it's good. Maria (45:44.418) You know, just, how do you get in flow? Leila Brillson (45:48.575) All right, two years before the alien Nostromo enters our periphery, the Maginot, we see the Maginot, we hear about these like competing houses, and then we're shown in kind of like TikTok-esque flashes that something tragic happens. And it fast forwards to this new kind of group, this new like, techno company called Prodigy and this young billionaire, trillionaire, we're told he's the first trillionaire, youngest trillionaire, is basically putting very sick children into the bodies of synthetics where they don't have the same hormonal processes as a kid, but it's basically the same emotional basis that they use these kids to Josephine Riesman (46:26.398) Youngest trillionaire, the youngest trillionaire, yeah. Maria (46:27.127) Wander. Leila Brillson (46:47.745) grow into the brains of these synths, you learn about them. They're all very, very heavily named after Peter Pan. Wendy, Smee, Slyke, like, yeah, all of these, you know, really, really leaning into the Berry mythology. And then this girl is revealed to be like really aching for her brother who's a medic who gets sent. Josephine Riesman (46:56.971) Yes. Josephine Riesman (47:00.5) slightly. Leila Brillson (47:15.647) to retrieve the ship that we saw in the earlier scene, the Maginot, which crashed for some reason into Prodigy City, which is owned by the kid trillionaire. Yeah. sorry. Thank you. Josephine Riesman (47:25.298) in New Siam, which is owned by Prodigy, just the kind of thing that a tech douchebag from the United States, once taking over Thailand, would rename it. But yes. Leila Brillson (47:35.028) No Leila Brillson (47:39.234) That's actually true. And that sheet that for some reason the kid trillionaire thinks that this massive investment of time and money is worth being sent to the front line of the search and rescue to search and rescue for the ship, which contains, of course, the requisite alien specimens that we see are not just your typical xenomorphs. Maria (47:39.384) familiarly arrogant, annoying, void, cabaret. Leila Brillson (48:08.117) The second episode sets off and it's basically just a search and rescue looking for a MacGuffin, which is the brother. And the alien appears, massacres a bunch of people, the kids see something scary, they're climbing through this tower, they run into ridiculous things like Marie Antoinette inspired. Josephine Riesman (48:30.06) Oh, no, no, no, no, you were missing the inspiration there. This was the best scene in the whole move, in the whole show because it was Noah Hawley is a huge, huge Kubrick fan. So it's Barry Lyndon. It's Alien versus Barry Lyndon, which was the best scene in the entire thing. It was incredible. Leila Brillson (48:34.044) John Leibit. Maria (48:34.574) You said it was fair religion. Maria (48:45.783) It was good. Leila Brillson (48:45.897) It was a little eye rolling, but I do like that framing. That framing makes it a little better for me, which I didn't bring to it. Massacre is like a bunch of rich people. But in the end, the brother and sister reconnect. The sister is revealed to actually be his sister, and he understands that it's his sister. And they go, they're sent on this mission to find the eggs, the egg sacs. And as they find the egg sacs and realizing that there's this emotional return between Josephine Riesman (48:51.148) All right. Leila Brillson (49:15.509) the brother and the sister, Wendy and her brother. And then as they connect, the alien, of course, absconds with this human brother and Wendy jumps after him. Josephine Riesman (49:29.142) jumps into the fray and who the hell knows what'll happen next. Maria (49:29.186) This is another. Maria (49:33.506) Go ahead. Lila Brillson, Josephine Reisman, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation that I will remember forever. Josephine Riesman (49:44.214) No problem, it was a delight. This was really nice, I appreciate it.