Josephine Riesman (00:00.046) Superman thing, it's possible. SI (00:02.032) Hey, by the way, look, this is what's happening with the cat toy. It's still attached, but it turns up like this. Here, Timmy. Well. Josephine Riesman (00:05.518) Aww, kitty toy. Well, that's no good. Wait, I think Sam's here. Sam! Sam Thielman (00:12.695) Can you guys hear me? Yes, I am. Can you hear me? Am I I am I OK. Excellent. I heard you guys. Yeah. How are things? Josephine Riesman (00:18.295) Yes! SI (00:18.86) Newman! Newman! SI (00:27.78) Things. I've been thinking heavily. Josephine Riesman (00:28.77) They are things. They are things. Sam Thielman (00:30.395) They are things. They are things. I had heard about that. good. Excellent. Josephine Riesman (00:34.328) She's drinking heavily some peach juice with a lot of pulp. Well, there you are. We can see you now. SI (00:38.842) I am drinking heavily of peach juice, but I did have a fancy cider before this because I thought I should be a little buzzed. Sam Thielman (00:44.587) That's good. I had quite a bit of bourbon before I went to see Superman versus Batman Dawn of Justice for The Guardian and then wrote about it. And Spencer took some edibles and we co-reviewed it. It was good. We should have. We should have because we mentioned the prominently in the copy. But it's... Josephine Riesman (00:45.373) I am completely for that. Josephine Riesman (00:54.701) Wow. SI (00:58.298) Would you expense them? Were you able to? You should have. SI (01:05.976) Not only should you express them, but you should have had some kind of like advertising kickback deal. Josephine Riesman (01:10.808) HAHAHAH! SpawnCon! Sam Thielman (01:11.031) Yes, in the spirit of the film. Yeah in the spirit in the spirit of the Zack Snyder Superman films. We should have had yeah SI (01:12.93) like that honestly Josephine Riesman (01:15.916) In spirit of the film, that's right. SI (01:17.776) This is how we were hoping to save the Phoenix, but we didn't get legal weed fast enough. Sam Thielman (01:22.185) I have this. I have this, and I have this. No, I'm just bringing this so that I can make my points forcefully. Josephine Riesman (01:23.854) Oh, you got that. Do I have any? Wait, are we doing this for a video pod or are we just or are we just SI (01:30.018) No, it's just me. Josephine Riesman (01:33.448) Great, okay. I have everything on CBR and CBZ. SI (01:34.138) I just wanted, I'm gonna switch to more forceful glasses. Hang on a second. There's a glove. Josephine Riesman (01:40.557) yeah, that's important. Sam Thielman (01:40.746) good, yeah, please. Yeah, we need some Clark Cantishness around here. Josephine Riesman (01:45.161) I'm going full soups. I don't need the glasses. SI (01:45.944) Okay, so Clark Kent was my go-to, like, low maintenance. Sam Thielman (01:48.503) You have the tousled hair and like yeah, no, it's it's it's good. Jersey. Yeah Josephine Riesman (01:52.582) Yeah, it's all good. SI (01:53.316) Hold on a second. for years I need you all to know that Clark Kent was my go-to last-minute Halloween costume. Josephine Riesman (02:00.44) Yup. Sam Thielman (02:00.469) It's a good costume. It's a good costume. used to do it too and then the beard came along and never left. So yeah. SI (02:02.224) Glasses, button down, button down, tie, hair slicked back, boom, done. And I went to a party and there's another guy there in my newspaper who was dressed, I kid you not, as Bruce Wayne. And I was so mad that I didn't find him attractive at all. Because otherwise, that would have been like so fucking perfect, right? Yeah. Sam Thielman (02:10.827) Well, and then like, Sam Thielman (02:21.654) You Sam Thielman (02:25.079) Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Yeah, yeah. I used to do it with the white button down over the Superman t-shirt, peeking out a little bit. Josephine Riesman (02:36.771) yeah, that's good, yeah. Blah-hush, super Blah-hush. Sam Thielman (02:39.349) Do ever see? SI (02:39.568) Exactly, that's what I was saying, that's what I did, the white button down over the super huge man t- Yeah, and the tie, and then you you unbutton a button or so and like, yeah, there you go. Sam Thielman (02:43.756) Over the shirt, yeah. Sam Thielman (02:52.651) I gotta show you my prize possession if I can get it up from behind my computer. Josephine Riesman (02:56.942) Please. SI (02:58.394) Got some cat action. Sam Thielman (03:02.401) I sent off for this bad boy. I sent away for this bad boy when I was like seven. He squeezes legs and he punches his editor. He files copy. Josephine Riesman (03:02.411) boy, cat wrestling. Wow. SI (03:08.024) you got? blood. Josephine Riesman (03:11.298) That's awesome. It was worth it. Zach (03:20.07) Great. SI (03:23.692) No, no, that's Spider Jerusalem. You've got it mixed up. Josephine Riesman (03:26.542) don't bring that shit up, yo, God. Hey, it's Zack! Sam Thielman (03:26.583) I'm sorry, Yes, molesting my assistants. I can hear you fine. I can't see you yet, but I live in hope. Zach (03:31.6) Hey, am I actually here? Can you hear me? Josephine Riesman (03:33.546) Yes you are! Zach (03:36.996) Yeah, no, this camera's gonna be too fucked up. Are we recording the video? SI (03:41.04) No. No, we just want to see your beautiful face. Josephine Riesman (03:41.16) We're just doing it for audio, but Sam Thielman (03:41.289) No, I mean, I think we're just. Zach (03:44.578) Okay, cuz my camera has like six different levels of permission that the app is asking me for. Sam Thielman (03:45.057) Joe, Joe, you're muted. SI (03:47.822) But we don't care. We want to the contours of your beautiful face, the cheekbones, the eyelashes. We want to see it all. Zach (03:54.586) That's okay. Josephine Riesman (03:54.862) But if you don't feel comfortable giving permissions to Riverside, will not. We will not criticize you. Zach (04:01.392) I'm fine with the permissions, I just don't know how long the process is going to be to jump through these incredibly stupid hoops. SI (04:07.576) It's fun. I'm just going to intensely picture you. Sam Thielman (04:07.959) It's all right. Josephine Riesman (04:08.628) It's not gonna take that long. Sam Thielman (04:10.58) You can be the narrator. Flaming Hydra (04:12.615) Zach? Zach? Zach (04:15.13) Yeah. Flaming Hydra (04:16.605) What was the problem? Was it a different browser? Zach (04:21.392) I, there was no diagnosed problem. just kept clicking the link in different ways and timeframes and moods. And eventually it opened this part up. Flaming Hydra (04:28.861) Okay. All right, yeah, don't try to, like if you're here, that's good. I mean, I think if you try to do video. Josephine Riesman (04:29.454) You Zach (04:35.226) Just give me like two minutes to look at this and see if I can get it working, okay? Just let me focus on this for a second and I will- Sam Thielman (04:38.359) Yeah, the interrogative podcast. Flaming Hydra (04:38.954) alright, okay. Alright. Alright, we're- Josephine Riesman (04:39.822) Grrr! SI (04:42.394) Hi, hi Josie. Hi Josie. Hey, hi. Hey cutie. Josephine Riesman (04:43.138) problem. Hi. Hi, it's nice to be on a podcast with you. SI (04:51.908) Josie, you look cute. You're looking hot. Josephine Riesman (04:57.218) You have to understand Sam, we're in separate cities. I'm in Porto and she... Yeah, I wish we could. She's in Lisbon, I'm in Porto visiting some friends. so that makes the sound, there won't be any echo. I guess that's a plus. Sam Thielman (04:59.188) Get a get a room. you are you're you're you're not yeah, okay, Sam Thielman (05:08.602) okay. SI (05:12.56) Okay, here's one of the things that was unrealistic about this film. When I started sleeping with somebody in my new school, we stopped bantering immediately and that's how everyone knew. Yeah, like we had been like sniping at each other like the whole time, we finally fucked and like everyone's like, my God, they finally fucked. We stopped talking to each other in the- Sam Thielman (05:17.611) Hold on, hold on, hold on. Sam Thielman (05:24.439) Yeah, yeah the flirtation Lake ceased yeah But but Josephine Riesman (05:25.836) Yeah, that's exactly. Sam Thielman (05:36.023) But the stakes were a little bit different because you didn't have to keep up the appearance of not having gone to bed together. that, that, that, oh you did. SI (05:45.136) Yes we did! We worked together! We worked! You know, no, we worked together, was a whole thing. like... Hey, kitty! Zach (05:45.89) Is this going to work? There we go. There we go. Okay. All right. I'm here. Flaming Hydra (05:46.478) Aha, there you are. Josephine Riesman (05:47.116) No, they did. That was the point. Sam Thielman (05:49.68) okay. All right. Flaming Hydra (05:52.658) Alright. Josephine Riesman (05:52.964) hi, Zach. Zach (05:55.844) Hello everybody. Sam Thielman (05:57.707) Polar. Flaming Hydra (05:59.101) Okay, so I'm going to do the intro later, but Sarah, what do you go by? How do I introduce your name? Si or Sarah? Si, okay. SI (06:10.668) It's S-S-S-S-I. S-I. S-I-R-O-V-E-T-O-N-T. Josephine Riesman (06:14.153) S.I. Rosenbaum. Flaming Hydra (06:15.741) That's iRosenbaum, okay cool. All right, everybody, okay, so yeah, here we are. Josephine Riesman (06:21.573) we're already recording. great. Flaming Hydra (06:23.033) And most of us have seen the Superman movie or all of us have seen the Superman movie. SI (06:27.034) Okay, all of us have seen at least some of the Superman movie, and all of us have probably seen most of the Superman movie, but I have not seen all of the Superman movie because at a certain point, I left. Flaming Hydra (06:39.867) You walked out. Okay. Sam Thielman (06:40.085) You hated it that much. SI (06:42.0) I was just done. I was done. I've seen enough. Flaming Hydra (06:45.275) All right, discuss. Sam Thielman (06:47.543) All right. So my under my Josephine Riesman (06:49.258) No, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait. Zach (06:49.478) Okay, out of curiosity, how deep into the movie are we talking? Josephine Riesman (06:54.028) Yeah, actually, what was the moment? What was the moment you left on? Sam Thielman (06:56.415) Yeah, what was the last straw? SI (06:59.012) When the Bavarians or whoever were massing their military might against a bunch of villagers, I was just like, all right, fine. Sam Thielman (07:09.014) Right. Sam Thielman (07:13.943) Probably 20 minutes from the end? That feels like you saw most of the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Zach (07:16.036) Right, that's like last reel of the film. SI (07:16.142) Yeah They were tying things up and I felt like I put in a really good effort, but I've also felt like there is nothing that was going to happen the next 20 minutes that was going to change how I felt about the matter of the movie. And I could kind of see where it was going. Plus, Josie said she'd fill me in. So. Sam Thielman (07:37.527) My understanding is, so Zach and I went and saw this together with my eight year old last week. And we liked it, but my understanding is that Josie and Si saw it and felt that it was too woke. That was your main objection was that Superman wasn't an all American boy. And yeah. SI (07:43.045) SI (07:52.912) That's right. Josephine Riesman (07:59.307) Yeah. SI (07:59.556) The S-trans for social justice, or the S-trans for S-trans S-trans Zach (08:03.366) I had heard specifically that Josie was really upset that they made Perry White Black. Sam Thielman (08:10.239) Yeah, yes. Josephine Riesman (08:11.456) Stop it! Zach (08:11.896) And just could not get past that alteration of the source. will say I think that Bunk as Perry White was the single best part of the movie. SI (08:16.076) I was actually a little mad that they made Otis black. Josephine Riesman (08:17.346) Wendell Pierce! Wendell Pierce did a great job! Josephine Riesman (08:25.998) Oh, well, but before we go any further, I wanna say what I liked about this movie, because I don't wanna be entirely negative. There is a version of this universe somewhere out there in the multiverse where Superman 2025 was a very funny, very heartfelt workplace comedy about the daily planet. The daily planet was perfectly cast. Sam Thielman (08:26.048) Yeah. SI (08:27.962) You're not wrong about that. Go ahead. Sam Thielman (08:32.953) Aw. Okay. Josephine Riesman (08:52.094) Every single member of the planet was somebody that passed the smell test. SI (08:52.547) If it had been... Sam Thielman (08:54.401) Fuckboy Jimmy Olsen was really amazing. just like I can't believe this guy goes to bed with all these super hot blonde girls who are taller than he is. Like that's just absolutely perfect, Jimmy Olsen. Yeah. Yeah. Zach (08:57.733) Yes. SI (08:57.808) if it had been the daily planet. Josephine Riesman (09:02.826) Right, which is what you want from Jimmy. SI (09:04.554) all worth the fact. Zach (09:07.044) Right, and my feeling was it's actually kind of a brilliant updating of like the Silver Age Jimmy Olsen who was like the more wiser era version of a fuckboy. Sam Thielman (09:14.485) Yes, I really want to see him turned into a turtle. Yeah, I really I really want to see him like like the giant the giant turtle man in the next SI (09:24.548) would have loved to see the Daily Planet gets gutted by Lex Luthor's venture capital, the private equity arc. Josephine Riesman (09:30.766) Private equity, yeah, private equity fund, yeah. Sam Thielman (09:31.689) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You do. You do watch that. You're like, wonder how much they pay to rent that giant office. SI (09:40.714) I actually got like a little bit... reclamped at that scene because... Sam Thielman (09:46.037) Yeah Josephine Riesman (09:47.042) Yeah, me too. Zach (09:48.134) like an actual newspaper office. SI (09:49.06) I grew up coming home every day after school to watch the Donner movie and fast forwarding through all the action sequences to the scenes of Daily Planet, which I watched over and over again. And then I got my first newspaper job and fuck me if it wasn't exactly like that. All of those fucking people actually worked for newspapers because they had all grown up watching some version of Superman. They all secretly wanted to be those people. What? Sam Thielman (09:58.25) You Josephine Riesman (10:14.84) No. You're close, that's true, but the real reason the journalism works in the original 1978 Donner movie, you know who wrote it. Everyone remembers Mario Puzo being the main writer, but David Benton and Newman, the writing duo who did it, had been journalists for like a decade before they started becoming screenwriters. They knew what journalism was actually like, and that's why I love the Donner movie's depiction of journalism. SI (10:19.801) close. Sam Thielman (10:28.864) Mario Puzo, yeah. Sam Thielman (10:33.175) Hmm. SI (10:35.118) There you go. Sam Thielman (10:38.719) Okay. Yeah. SI (10:39.535) Well. Zach (10:44.09) And then they did the draft of the Batman screenplay that added in all of the scenes of the newsroom. There's like whatever they wrote, it's gonna be a newsroom and it's gonna feel right. Sam Thielman (10:49.783) It's yeah It's such it's such a good way to stage dialogue though There is so many different conversations going on at odds with each other that have to be interpolated and it's it just it makes it's it's Julian Barnes Josephine Riesman (11:06.638) I wanted more of it! SI (11:09.072) I have like a whole... There's so much to be said about the Daily Planet and their relationship with Superman, which is clearly that they all know who he is and they are all aware that this is stands between him and madness. Like this job that none of them are making any money at because that's not why you become a journalist. Like why would the most powerful man on the planet want to be a reporter? Sam Thielman (11:23.511) It's the SNL sketch Sam Thielman (11:33.28) Yeah. SI (11:38.864) and not a very good one. Like, they all know they've just got to keep their mouths shut on this because otherwise he's gonna lose his shit. So like, every journalist who gets hired there at some point gets sat down and be like, okay, look, the guy who sits over at that desk is Superman, you're not going to say a fucking word about it. Just pretend like you don't see anything. Yes, this is our obstacle, but... Right? Sam Thielman (11:44.183) Right. Sam Thielman (11:55.656) Yeah. Sam Thielman (12:00.085) I feel like I've had versions of that conversation. Like in actual newsrooms. feel like people are like, his dad is the ambassador to China. Just be nice to him. He's an okay guy. Like... Josephine Riesman (12:03.662) Have you? SI (12:06.872) Yes! SI (12:10.51) Yeah. Yes. Josephine Riesman (12:10.729) yes, yes, yes, yes. Zach (12:11.712) Yeah, we just we just don't say it nobody brings it up, but SI (12:15.248) There are no secrets in newsrooms. You cannot keep a secret in a room full of people with a pathological need to know everyone's business. So I've always thought that exploring the planet where everyone obviously knows this thing and has decided to break journalistic ethics in order to essentially keep the planet from being destroyed. The whole actual planet. Yeah, I... Josephine Riesman (12:15.254) Nobody brings up. Sam Thielman (12:25.292) Yes. Josephine Riesman (12:37.546) Not just the planet, but the planet. Yeah. Sam Thielman (12:37.783) Mm-hmm. That's a lot of people passing on a scoop. Like that strikes me as unrealistic. SI (12:44.4) I wrote a short story once where like it was Kat's job to take every intern out for drinks and explain this to them. Like at some point the intern would figure it out and be like, oh my God, this is the most amazing scoop. I'm the only one who knows. And someone would be like, okay, Kat, Kat, can you take them out for drinks? Explain this. Sam Thielman (12:52.779) Yeah, that's a good Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna win a Pulitzer Yeah. Right. Yeah. Josephine Riesman (13:08.574) Okay, okay, let's get to the substance of the movie though, because here's what here's the trouble It's not about the planet the daily planet the daily planet is a plot device for gathering exposition information Which is always frustrating for me SI (13:09.442) Anyway, the movie. Yeah. SI (13:15.258) So it's not about... Zach (13:20.326) Which is what the Daily Planet has been since 1938, so we're clear on this. SI (13:24.46) Wait, wait, I want to hear Zack and Sam explain why they think this is a good movie or a good Superman movie. There are two possibilities. What's wrong with... Josephine Riesman (13:24.546) AHHHH Josephine Riesman (13:29.406) I do too. I do too, because I can't understand why sane people would find this movie good. So please tell me. We will listen. Sam Thielman (13:37.119) I thought it was terrific. Yeah, no, I thought it was really fun. I loved the twist with the Kryptonian parents turning out to be like evil. I thought that was a great kind of contemporary twist on the way they smear people like, who was the, it wasn't Mahmoud Khalil, it was the other guy. The other Columbia student who got, but no, the other student who got arrested, SI (14:01.178) We'll see, Ma, for a little bit, okay. Sam Thielman (14:07.319) a bunch of right-wing assholes went through his Instagram and were like, here's his cousin holding a gun. And it was like a photo he'd posted of his cousin after he died, just being like, you know, really sorry to lose. Madami, think his name was. But yeah. And yeah, it just it just felt very much like this is the this this is like the line of attack now. It's by association with your like area of origin. Josephine Riesman (14:22.178) No. Sam Thielman (14:35.765) people there you may not even you know know so I loved that I also yeah and I kind of hate the like idealized Krypton that the only part of the Snyder movie I liked was the first bit set on Krypton and I loved Krypto he was so cute I love the Kryptos not a very good dog that was fun and I like that he's like a nice SI (14:38.117) Okay. So you want to do that? SI (15:01.924) Yeah, that was good. Sam Thielman (15:04.521) I just like Superman being nice. like him saving squirrels. SI (15:08.718) Sure. Okay. Okay. Hang on. Hang on. on. Zach, do you want to say why you liked it? Josephine Riesman (15:08.814) How was he nice? He saved squirrels, but he's a dick. Sorry, keep going, keep going, keep going. Sam Thielman (15:12.247) You're not a dick. Josephine Riesman (15:18.54) Yes, Zach, I'm very curious. Zach (15:20.304) So it's interesting, I liked the movie, and I think I liked it for entirely different reasons than Sam did, but I did like the movie. I liked the movie because I would contend, and I do contend, that it in fact has no political ambitions, that it has precisely the political ambition of the majority of Superman comics, which is absolutely jack shit nothing, and that anything more that any of us attempt to read into it is- SI (15:27.809) interesting. Zach (15:46.586) thoroughly projection from our own experience as journalists and citizens rather than anything the movie is trying to say. SI (15:55.792) What's wrong with both of you? Zach (15:59.142) I will add to that because I am nothing if not filled with multitudes that I in fact disagree with Sam and I would presume totally agree with Josie and Si that the one clunky bit of the movie and clunky is the wrong word because it's not the first time somebody has done this but every time they do it I object to it is the bit about SI (16:04.825) Okay, great. Flaming Hydra (16:06.237) you Zach (16:24.451) What redeems Superman is not his terrible Kryptonian parents, but his wonderful Americana Norman Rockwell American parents, which every time they do that is the most obnoxious thing. Sam Thielman (16:34.903) Yeah. No, I don't actually disagree with you on that. I think there's a certain amount of you know, lionization of the Hicks that I as a Hick, I'm kind of down on. Flaming Hydra (16:45.809) Do they, do they, does the film, does the film get any, does the film get any cred for making Ma and Pa Kent like really like not, not Kevin Costner and Diane Lane, you know, it's like not movie star, good looking Midwestern parents, you know, they get any credit for that? Zach (16:49.134) it's it's kitsch it's always Josephine Riesman (16:58.508) MAGA? IDIOTS? Sam Thielman (17:03.489) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (17:06.666) No, no, because the movie's completely, the movie, look, look, look, here's the thing. I am not, like, it's so condescending to those two characters. Like, it's not like I'm a big fan of the kinds of people who vote for Donald Trump, but they depict them as the kinds of people who would vote for Donald Trump and not tell their son about it. And that's not John and Martha Kent to me. Sam Thielman (17:08.115) Yeah, I don't know. think that's a good choice. Zach (17:29.968) Yes, yes. Sam Thielman (17:30.985) I don't know. I don't know. I mean, they're like... SI (17:31.887) is. Josephine Riesman (17:34.562) They'd say, well, we thought they were just gonna deport the good immigrants, not you, son. Sam Thielman (17:37.975) No, I think... SI (17:38.736) I prefer to think that if... Okay, so John and Martha Kent are extremely smart and thoughtful individuals because they managed to raise this child without creating a sociopath, which is hard enough when the kid doesn't have superpowers, almost impossible in fact. And knowing that responsibility... Josephine Riesman (17:48.79) Yes! SI (18:04.208) takes a huge amount of thinking, moral choice, ethical philosophy, and I like to see the cans portrayed as ordinary people who have those smarts. I was kind of waiting for the movie to do that. I don't have a problem with them having cans and accents. I don't have a problem with them yelling at the phone or being human. But I was kind of waiting for them to be formidable in themselves, and that didn't quite... Sam Thielman (18:31.403) Yeah, I just, I never want that. And I always see it and it always kind of pisses me off. I just, like, I would rather see them just be normal than have them sort of... Josephine Riesman (18:41.762) Well, that's that. Go ahead. SI (18:41.962) Let me see what Flaming Hydra (18:46.147) aware of the voices of man pocket in this film and who ... are based on who they are inspired by. SI (18:54.126) Yes. Sam Thielman (18:54.613) No, no, I'm not. Josephine Riesman (18:55.902) No. No, I'm not actually who. Sam Thielman (18:58.827) Who are they? they supposed to be, Flaming Hydra (19:00.189) A guy on the Howard Stern show, his mom and dad, Richard Christie, he's a heavy, a death metal drummer, and he's a guy that's been on the show for years, and he does like, you know, really disgusting pranks and stuff like that. A bit on the show is that they check in with his voicemails from his dad, and his dad, it sounds like Pa Kent. SI (19:03.364) Right. SI (19:18.586) Well, look how just the speech went down. Sam Thielman (19:23.255) Are they called parents? Yeah, okay. Yeah. That's funny. Okay, yeah. Josephine Riesman (19:25.073) great. Josephine Riesman (19:30.742) Well, Baba Booey. Flaming Hydra (19:30.909) And they got a credit. They got a credit at the end. The three Christie family members got a credit at the end of film. SI (19:39.408) kind of get here for a second if I may and I want to lay down the kind of the criteria that I bring to a Superman movie and to a story, to Superman stories in general. And this is a character who's very personal and close to my heart. This was one of the myths I grew up on. Superman's about a bunch of things. Like you know that my English teacher in high school used to say that like, War and Peace is about a lot of things, but it's not about cucumber farming in Kansas. like, you know, there's an area around in which, within which a story works and an area outside of it, which it doesn't. Like you can't just make something be about anything. And the Superman story to me has to be about a certain bunch of core ideas. And the first core idea, and this is where I differ from a lot of recent Superman writers, the core idea of Superman. Sam Thielman (20:13.078) Yeah. SI (20:35.938) is loneliness. The core idea of Superman is the secret identity, the fact that he has to choose between being loved and vulnerable, but known, and being safe but never known and never loved. And that he can't be fully known in either of his personas and he is just the ultimate outsider, which brings us to the second part. Superman is also about passing. It's about being an immigrant. It's about being an alien, but it's about being the kind of immigrant alien who can pass. was, know, and pass, and passes as, you know, a white male. And this is something that was because it was, you know, created by a couple of white passing Jews who were guys and who had that kind of double consciousness of being not, you know, looking, looking on the outside, what Josephine Riesman (21:13.762) and passes the hegemonic class, like, yeah. SI (21:32.292) white supremacists would think of as the Ubermensch, but not being the Ubermensch, very much being the Untermensch. And that's kind of the tension with Superman is that, you know, he has to pass. And the question is like, you know, is that good or bad? So those are kind of the issues that I hope to see like a Superman story deal with. You can see why I hated this. Sam Thielman (21:55.125) I can see why you hated this then. SI (21:58.864) Also, there's a couple of things. All of the context for the things that happened in the movie should come from those themes. When he's talking to Lois, okay, he's come out to Lois, Lois knows who he is, terrific. How did that happen? What brought him to that point? How did he disclose to her? How did she take it? Josephine Riesman (22:24.782) How long was he wondering whether he should do it or not? SI (22:27.492) When he says, should have told you I loved you long ago. Like that should be because he's loved her mutely from afar from behind this scrim of various identities. Talk about identity politics. It's his secret identity politics, but none of that is actually in the film. It's not in the performances either. like that, it's not weighted there. If you go back to the second super dawn, the second Reeve Superman movie, the, the, the coming out scene is. Sam Thielman (22:45.941) No, it's definitely not. SI (22:56.944) that they ended up going with. I think it's the Lister version, in fact. But it's the Lester version. It's actually really beautiful because you can see how terrified Reeve is as Superman, how absolutely out of his depth he is, and how he doesn't even know how to have a conversation with somebody if he's not in one character or the other. And he loves her. He's wanted to her. Josephine Riesman (23:00.162) Yeah, the last Richard Lester version, yeah. SI (23:26.404) but he's like completely naked and defenseless. And that vulnerability in Clark is like so important to him. Zach (23:36.678) So I have this theory of like my pet theory of Clark Kent is that what really makes the character or what could make the character work, and I'm not sure that anybody has really like attempted this on screen or page, but what ought to make the character work is that he is genuinely in love with Lois, but he is genuinely in love with Lois as Clark. And to embrace that relationship as Superman and Lois, SI (23:41.221) Go! Josephine Riesman (23:42.008) Please. Zach (24:05.56) is to betray the way that he is approaching this woman that he is in love with, and he can't do that. And so the love triangle is true. He's never going to be the most powerful mortal in the universe because he just part-went. Right. Josephine Riesman (24:10.89) YES! Sam Thielman (24:13.067) I think that's a really good point, Sam Thielman (24:18.443) For the same reason he can't become a professional football player. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's an interesting form. Yeah. I think. SI (24:22.19) Yeah, yes, you're absolutely right. mean, the idea that who whose idea was it that like, Superman as Clark is constantly pretending to be us and hates us and like who capitalized on Tarantino theory. Yeah, I hate that. I hate Tarantino's theory of Clark. Josephine Riesman (24:22.775) Right. Zach (24:37.504) The Quentin Tarantino theory, yeah. Josephine Riesman (24:40.298) That's right. I hate it too. It's, yeah. Zach (24:43.128) everybody hates that quentin tarantino is like the most wrong person about superman who has ever been wrong about superman Josephine Riesman (24:48.14) That's correct. Sam Thielman (24:49.631) Which is a long list. That's a deep, that's yeah. Which incredibly. SI (24:49.946) Well, yes! Josephine Riesman (24:51.446) It's a very long list. Zach (24:51.511) Right! SI (24:53.722) Yeah. mean, it weirdly, sorry, go ahead. Sam Thielman (24:59.295) No, finish your thought. I want to hear. SI (24:59.764) Weirdly, movie I feel like gets this and I, know, puh puh puh, but the singer movie. Josephine Riesman (25:08.334) Returns, is filled with monsters so you can't really recommend it anymore. Sam Thielman (25:09.729) Yeah, yeah It also like just subtext just thematically to like I'm sorry go ahead no SI (25:19.152) Directed by somebody who's terrible and I mean, he's not works fantastically because he's not acting very much. But Ruth really gets this and there's this scene at the end where he comes in. It's a wonderful movie because nothing is resolved in it. Everybody has to live with their choices. It's kind of like. Josephine Riesman (25:19.296) No, you're going to get disagreement from us on this too, but yeah. Sam Thielman (25:22.746) haha Josephine Riesman (25:24.98) and starring someone who's even worse. SI (25:46.032) uh... growing up and realizing that just having superpowers does not it only adds to your problems but at the end there's this beautiful scene where superman comes to the bedside of this child and says you're going to be different and it's going to be difficult but you won't be alone and I lost it because that's what superman has said to so many thousands of lonely children over the entire course of his existence as a character. That you're different and you'll be lonely, but it's going to be worth it and you'll find other people like you. And like to me that has to be in there. I just didn't see any of this. It's just too bad because I know this is something that James Gunn understands. This is something that like he was able to put in other movies, but not this one. Sam Thielman (26:33.153) Well, I think that's, well, I just, think that's not, think, so I actually disagree with your point about the war and peace analogy, because I think you can absolutely have a Superman movie about cucumber farming and I guess, you Ukraine, if we're gonna, so. Zach (26:33.2) So I think... SI (26:45.12) Hahaha! Josephine Riesman (26:51.31) Well, you could have a Superman movie about cucumber farming, but you couldn't have a Superman movie in certain other contexts, is I think what she was saying. Sam Thielman (26:57.845) Well, I I know I understand that but my point is that Superman has existed for 90 odd years and like it's it's I'm sorry nearly 90 years and like the every possible story has been told and the the things that like are anathema to me that they've done with the character are like Superman killing like the evil Kryptonian. And that's canonical. That shit happened. I can't unwrite that John Byrne story. It bothers me. Many have tried. But I don't disagree with as I pointed out all about the points about the sort of thematic resonances. But those work primarily for me as subtext to stories for children about SI (27:24.216) Agree Josephine Riesman (27:29.73) Yeah. Zach (27:31.514) Many have tried. Josephine Riesman (27:32.864) Many have tried. Sam Thielman (27:53.129) a guy who's a good example. that is fundamentally what I'm there for. And the best Superman stories to me are the ones where there is a gun-like world where people are, you know, the suicide squad exists and everything's kind of fucked up and weird. And there's sort of, there are all these kind of moral impossibilities that Superman is faced with and then has to overcome in a believable way. I think those are really hard stories to write. Josephine Riesman (27:57.46) I agree with that. SI (28:08.058) Sure, sure. Sam Thielman (28:18.815) because the idea is that you face down Superman with like a quandary he can't possibly overcome and then write a believable way for him to like get out of it. And so the idea that like everyone suddenly believes Superman is an alien sent to take over there, you know, take them all as wives or whatever. And then like, there's like a snide-ness and a kind of like, like knowingness that is very redolent of like, what you get from right-wing news about Superman being, well, he wants to take you all as wives. it's very, that kind of intrusion of realism is the catalyst for my favorite Superman stories because being able to defeat that and be like, no, we actually do live in a magical world filled with kryptonite and, you know, super horses. that's, yeah, yeah, jump. SI (29:10.712) No, I- Josephine Riesman (29:12.626) Can I jump in? Can I jump in? Here's something I keep thinking about. Sam, you said Superman's been around for 98 years and every story has been told. I agree, but I disagree with your point. You have not, here's the thing. All of the stories have been told, 90 % of them have been told in fanfic or they've been told in stories that nobody reads. SI (29:15.307) This is closing. Sam Thielman (29:32.811) Mm-hmm. Right. SI (29:36.408) know who it comes. Josephine Riesman (29:41.72) They've been told in stories written by queer people and women. All of the stories about Superman written by cis-het white men, yeah, we've told all those. There aren't any left. But guess what the best show on television is right now? My Adventures with Superman, an animated series made by she's and they's that says a million new things about Superman, feels completely contemporary. That he's a he, him lesbian, essentially. Sam Thielman (29:41.879) Mm-hmm. Sam Thielman (29:46.241) Mm-hmm. SI (30:01.145) of needs. Sam Thielman (30:03.965) What are those things? SI (30:08.752) Yes, pretty much. Sam Thielman (30:09.227) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (30:11.264) No, I'm serious. Like it understands that the core, what makes Superman interesting to a lot of people, maybe not you Sam Teelman, is the love story. And the love story is the core of what makes that story work for so many people. And we've lived in this world for the past God knows how many decades where only white, cis, het men are allowed to make Superman stories. Sam Thielman (30:12.8) OK. Sam Thielman (30:22.539) Filmin. Josephine Riesman (30:36.994) and they always make them about power and fighting and beat them up. And the real love story is always secondary. The only time... Yeah, go ahead. SI (30:42.98) I want to chime in here for a second very quickly because this was something I wanted to say about the many stories being told in fan fiction, where I come from. Everybody loves writing AU versions of a character like Superman. Like this goes way back to the seventies. Kirkenspock, make them Tolkien. Kirkenspock, but make them, you know, go-go dancers. Like, let's see how far we can go. Sam Thielman (30:43.105) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (30:54.285) Yes. Sam Thielman (31:02.881) Sure. SI (31:13.036) and still make these characters recognizable. And what makes a great character recognizable at, in the same way that artistically you can make a character that can be recognized in a hyper-realistic painterly version or like a chibi version or like a Bigfoot cartooning version, that kind of design in terms of character, there's a couple of lines that always have to be there. And... Sam Thielman (31:31.531) Mm-hmm. Sam Thielman (31:40.437) But people disagree on what those lines are. Zach (31:43.052) May I suggest- Josephine Riesman (31:43.552) Sure. I wanna hear, okay. SI (31:44.036) They do, but you can argue with that. And I think with... With Clark Josie you're gonna remind me who who said the quote that we talked about all the time about believing that there's the right thing to do Josephine Riesman (32:00.744) Tegan O'Neil, one of the greatest comics critics of all time and cultural critics of all time, who were blessed to be alive at the time of, once wrote a satirical, Derry Daw style essay about Superman that she has told me was written as a satire, but contains the ultimate truth of Superman, which is Superman is not a story, Superman's superpower rather, is not anything other than SI (32:05.668) I love this quarter food. Josephine Riesman (32:28.162) he can be and can recognize what is good. SI (32:33.796) He believes that there's a great thing to do and he's able to figure out what it is. Josephine Riesman (32:37.514) and he's able to figure out what to do. None of us can. None of us can. Sam Thielman (32:39.031) Mm-hmm. SI (32:41.506) None of us can do both of those things all the time, but Clark always can, and that's the superpower. Sam Thielman (32:41.995) Yeah. Yeah. Zach (32:48.87) That's the metaphor of flight. That's ascending into space and being able to look at the Earth from the distance to see here is truth and righteousness in a way that others can't recognize on the ground. SI (32:54.629) Yes! SI (32:59.408) Just like that cloying 1990s song. But this Clark really bothered me about it. The Clark in this, the Superman in this movie. Sam Thielman (33:07.239) Which one? Josephine Riesman (33:08.568) Superman. Sam Thielman (33:10.195) yeah. Josephine Riesman (33:11.182) I think that was from the odds, but yeah, go on, yes. SI (33:13.346) really really bothered me yes it was the odds i'm sorry you're right it was it was a gulf war song no it was the 90s anyway this what bothered sorry what bothered me about it was he doesn't the idea that he does good because his parents told him to do so on a voicemail really bugged me first of all these are not first of all he's a trans Josephine Riesman (33:21.528) Keep going. Sam Thielman (33:36.001) the That's not what happens. SI (33:43.278) He's a transnational adoptee. These are not the people who raised him. These are people who left behind like a 10 second voicemail that I guess is his, you know, raison d'etre, but that seems stupid to me. And second of all, they, they, there's actually more and they told him not to be good. no. Now what am I supposed to do? Who cares? Like who cares what they said? Sam Thielman (33:48.192) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (34:08.268) He's already good, he- Sam Thielman (34:09.227) But I think, no, no, no, he cares what people think of him. Zach (34:09.776) Well, in fairness, Si, who cares is actually the argument Gunn is trying to make in the movie. Like, that ultimately is the message of the movie that the world is supposed to take from this. SI (34:18.084) Yes, but he thinks that that's something that actually asked me, argued about, or thought about. And to me it's like, okay, I got through that ethical part of life. Sam Thielman (34:20.037) But he also cares what people think of him. Sam Thielman (34:26.379) No, he cares a lot what the rest of the world says. mean, I think that's important. Josephine Riesman (34:26.926) the bean. Zach (34:30.586) Right, it's the fact that the Fox News' of the world are using it as propaganda against Superman. The point is that it doesn't matter. SI (34:33.616) And I was willing to go with that. I was willing to go with that. Sam Thielman (34:35.479) James Gunn's James Gunn's brother writes for Bill Maher and and there's yeah, and they there's a there's Probably the meanest caricature of Bill Maher I've ever seen in this movie in the form of Michael Ian Black's cable news host and and he's just constantly getting like, you know Josephine Riesman (34:35.694) Sure, sure. SI (34:42.489) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (34:44.194) I didn't know that! SI (34:56.546) Yup, that was very good. Sam Thielman (35:02.411) bamboozled by various people, especially Lex Luthor. By the way, we haven't talked about Lex and I actually think this is a really good portrayal of Lex. Yeah, I just think he's cool. think it's a good portrayal of someone who's halfway between Stephen Miller and Elon Musk. It just felt like a good distillation of the kind of contemporary, like, Josephine Riesman (35:09.528) We have to, you can't talk about this without talking about Lex. What do you want to say, Sam? Cause I have a lot of thoughts. Sam Thielman (35:30.145) technocrat right-wing bullshit that we all have to kind of put up with every day. I thought the, well, I thought the, like the corporatization, I guess, like the sort of war room he has where everybody's like doing all their HR stuff simultaneously with his insane, you know, like potentially world ending plots felt very on point to me. SI (35:32.494) Here's my question though. Josephine Riesman (35:32.622) But it was the United, but here's the, go ahead. No, go ahead. Josephine Riesman (35:59.566) but they're like black and brown and women. Why the fuck would Lex Luthor hire a bunch of people who are not white men? Sam Thielman (35:59.72) That I like the way that worked. Yeah. SI (36:02.349) I had a problem. Zach (36:05.808) Why are we assuming that you necessarily wouldn't? Sam Thielman (36:06.807) Because they're cheap. Yeah. Josephine Riesman (36:10.156) Because that's what this fucking movie is. He hates immigrants so much that he wants to get rid of a rare species that only has one left. SI (36:11.184) Because he's evil! Zach (36:16.87) except that's not- that is only the movie because you're declaring it by fiat. there is nothing inherently in this movie that says that it is a highly political defense of immigration. we would love it to be. i would love it to be. no! no! i- Sam Thielman (36:23.243) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (36:29.336) Give me a fucking break, Zack! Sam Thielman (36:29.417) Yeah. no, it's no, there's nothing about immigration in this movie. Absolutely nothing. SI (36:34.8) girls, girls with come down. Okay, look, here's the Flaming Hydra (36:41.181) Can I just say that with Lex, he does aliquot what his motivation is, and it's envy. It's not anything else. All the other stuff is window dressing for his agenda. He's envious. Sam Thielman (36:50.123) Yeah. Yeah. Josephine Riesman (36:56.166) Alright. But what I'm saying is the metaphor loses a lot if you have him be multicultural and not a racist. That's all I'm saying. Because all of the technocrats are racists. They aren't multicultural. SI (36:57.384) Here's what- Sam Thielman (37:04.886) Why? SI (37:06.116) Because Elon Musk, all of the things crap you just mentioned, they Sam Thielman (37:10.443) the Zach (37:11.622) That's not a- that wouldn't be a metaphor, that would just be a depiction. Josephine Riesman (37:20.234) Okay, I'll take that back. I'll concede that. That's fine. I don't care about that. That's fine. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. You can have that point. I will allow you that point. SI (37:29.924) Here's my question. Here's my question. Sam, I agree with you that the idea that Superman might be a bad agent is an interesting one. And I've seen this dealt with in other places. I've seen the idea that the Kryptonians were evil and sent him for bad purposes done before. I've seen people being concerned that he's a honeypot, you know, advanced out. Sam Thielman (37:57.932) Right. SI (37:59.204) done before. put up a really hot fan fiction in the studio chat if you guys want to go read a really good take on that, done by someone who may or may not have been a writer on a Superman property. but here's my problem. What happens then? What happens in the movie? Well, once we set up that question about the question of how does the world see Superman, Sam Thielman (38:19.199) I don't understand the question. Josephine Riesman (38:20.788) Yeah, sorry. Which question? Sam Thielman (38:28.81) Mm-hmm. SI (38:28.9) and how can he show himself to be good, then what happens? Then we go to a pocket dimension and we have a lot of special effects for a really long time. Sam Thielman (38:41.195) Yeah, and this was actually my favorite part of the movie is Lois saves him. Lois comes to his rescue and it reframes his of self-worth that he's clearly in part basing on his public image in terms of the person he loves the most, who is Lois. I think... SI (38:47.001) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (39:04.568) But he doesn't, I don't think he loves her. I didn't buy that he loves her at all. SI (39:08.784) Hang on, hang on, hang on. Whether you... Sam Thielman (39:08.787) Okay, well, but I watched the movie and in the movie he says I love you. SI (39:14.864) Okay, how does that resolve the problem of how the world sees Superman? Sam Thielman (39:22.229) Because that's not the problem. The problem is for Superman, right? Like the, reframes it so that it's now like, now he can just go save the world and do the right thing, irrespective of what people think of him. Josephine Riesman (39:22.775) Yeah. SI (39:35.6) So the problem was always how he saw himself. Sam Thielman (39:38.839) I mean, that problem is, I think. Zach (39:39.366) So I think see what Si is getting at here and I think I actually agree with that. think in so much as what as the conflict the movie has posed here is that the world has wronged Superman in presuming his worst intentions based on his parents. The world has learned nothing at the end of this experience, which is depressingly realistic. Like that is what would happen in real life. SI (39:46.384) Thank you. SI (39:50.639) Yes. SI (39:55.694) or the world's first Superman. Correct. Sam Thielman (40:06.239) Yes, yes. Zach (40:07.81) But in the context of the movie's plot, it is, I would agree, entirely unsatisfying and troubling that Superman has just decided to move on and the world has totally screwed him over here. Josephine Riesman (40:14.124) Yeah, yeah. Sam Thielman (40:19.703) Yeah, but he also saves the world from a big dimension or whatever. SI (40:19.706) but also the question of SI (40:25.54) The question at the beginning is a legitimate one. It is legitimate question. If any of you want to go read the unfortunately unfinished webcomic Strong Female Protagonist that deals with this question in depth, should Superman have imposed himself in geopolitical affairs? I always fantasized about doing that if I were Superman, but it may be something that's not a great idea. Zach (40:25.54) He is great! The world is terrible! Sam Thielman (40:27.839) Yes, yes. Josephine Riesman (40:31.478) It is a legitimate question at the beginning. Sam Thielman (40:51.136) Mm-hmm. SI (40:53.252) where does his responsibility begin and end? That question is posed and never will be solved. Josephine Riesman (40:57.836) and then never answered, not even addressed really. Zach (41:01.37) That is because it's cheap foreshadowing for the Authority movie. That is clearly foreshadowing for a sequel. We all know, we all know, I hate to break the illusion here, but it's franchise building. Josephine Riesman (41:06.1) for fuck's sake. For fuck's sake. Ugh. Sam Thielman (41:09.281) I also... SI (41:11.628) Then structurally, the threat is posed to Superman that now he's been slandered and he is no longer able to carry out his mission of helping people because everyone hates him. That's also a really interesting question. I always wondered, okay, if Superman was Sam Thielman (41:13.975) But I also think that like. Sam Thielman (41:25.836) Yeah. SI (41:34.146) kind of ugly or short or nebushy or a girl or not white. How would people feel about being rescued by him? Or if they thought that he was in fact, you know, a threat in some way, how would people react to that? And how would he dig his way out? And then we never, never see that predicament resolved ever again. So I feel like the plot goes on. Sam Thielman (41:56.683) He's redeemed by the love of a good woman. That's clearly like, yeah, that's just, that's the plot of the movie. I think, yeah, no, it's fine. You don't have to like it. Josephine Riesman (41:57.132) Like, he's to redeem by the love of a good woman. Right, exactly. SI (42:03.139) and vote. SI (42:08.61) Let it be on the record, I'm bonking my face with a stuff shark right now. Okay. Sam Thielman (42:12.511) Yeah, that yeah, no, that's Zach (42:14.182) Well, no, but I mean, sort of what you get at becomes part of the premise of that great Dwayne McDuffie series icon for Milestone Comics in the early 90s, which does take as its basis, what if Superman came to Earth, but then he was black? How would that play out in society? And it's brilliant. I mean, yes, when you have these kind of airsots spins on Superman, you do get really interesting notions like that. But that's obviously not the truth. Sam Thielman (42:23.511) Yeah SI (42:23.588) Yes! Sam Thielman (42:29.239) but then he was born. SI (42:29.38) Yep. I love that cock. Josephine Riesman (42:29.399) Right! SI (42:40.483) Right? Sam Thielman (42:40.865) But they also all bring the story to a conclusion, which you can't do in a franchise thing. Yeah, that's the Miracle Man. I don't know if you guys read the Junot Diaz thing in the Times this morning, but it was interesting. He talks about how his favorite Superman stories are all the Alan Moore takes. They're Watchmen and Miracle Man. Josephine Riesman (42:47.822) in a franchise thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. SI (42:47.876) Yes. Josephine Riesman (42:57.473) No, I didn't know. SI (43:04.527) course they are. because yes, is. Sam Thielman (43:10.391) The thing is that like, you know, you can this this is sort of what I mean when I say you like Cucumber farming is a completely legitimate topic for a Superman movie because this is not what the OG Superman is about. This is not what the Siegel and Schuster Superman is about. Siegel and Schuster Superman is kind of a reversal of John Carter of Mars, where you have somebody from a different planet who comes to our planet. And because the natural laws are different, he can leap tall buildings. SI (43:20.87) was impermeability. Sam Thielman (43:36.841) in a single bound and then he becomes kind of a shadow type character who goes around the city writing wrongs. Like it's very, very, very local. You know, as opposed to the stuff that we get later on with with Burn and with all the Elliot S. Magan and and more Weisinger stuff. And again, that's not necessarily the era I want to see on screen for Superman, right? Like him is sort of like a like a like a Like a heavier weight Batman who can't fly, that's like maybe not my jam. I like the silly era. I like the, you know, I want to see Superman's like, I want to see his head turned into a lion or whatever. But yeah. SI (44:11.621) I'm happy to see any of these errors but Josephine Riesman (44:17.1) Yeah, but we didn't get that in this movie. I wish we had. SI (44:18.832) It's a me. It's a me. Sam Thielman (44:19.901) No, but we get Metamorpho the Elephant Man. Yeah. Yeah. I wish it had gotten sillier. Zach (44:20.578) No, I sort of wish it had gone more full-wise here, but... SI (44:23.764) To me, the phrase that you can't get away with is disguised as mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent. to me, that's the kind of the thing that makes Superman different from other superhero stories is that he has to keep himself hidden. And he has to make a decision whether or not he can allow himself to be seen. Sam Thielman (44:31.479) But Josephine Riesman (44:45.261) Yeah. Sam Thielman (44:46.423) But again, Clark is. Clark being a weenie is barely like a feature of the early Superman stories. Like he gets their stories where Clark doesn't even appear. Like it's, you know, from the Seagull and Schuster era. it's not, yeah. SI (45:05.904) I still feel like that's the seed of what grew into the heart of the character in the same way. mean, like, you can go back to the early Batman stories and they're bizarre and haven't figured out what the rules are. it's the same way with a lot of things. Never watch the first season of Star Trek The Next Generation. But his parents had still been gunned down in Cram Alley. And from that... Sam Thielman (45:18.646) Mm-hmm. Sam Thielman (45:26.316) Hahaha SI (45:34.448) things have to elaborate from that. There has to be that loss. And for Superman, the kind of the generative nut is the fact that he's a superhero who's famous and completely unknown. And that's the tense. So I think there's a lot you can do with that too, you know? Josephine Riesman (45:51.15) Yes. And I want to, oh, go ahead. Well, I want to loop back a little bit to tie into what you say and also push against something Zach said, was, know, Sean Gunn did a red carpet interview that went viral. He was like, Superman's an immigrant, man. And it's like, we should defend immigrants because Superman's an immigrant. Great. I'm all for immigration. That's fine. I like immigrants. SI (46:12.416) Mm-hmm. Yes. SI (46:17.444) Uh-huh. Josephine Riesman (46:18.892) You're never gonna hear somebody on the red carpet saying, hey, Superman doesn't have human gender and is actually, you know, probably has a cloaca. You're never gonna hear that because that's, it's just, it's not relevant to most of the Wednesday Warriors, to the people. Sam Thielman (46:30.913) Yeah. SI (46:31.472) I'm sorry, guys. SI (46:35.598) I converted Josie to my Superman has a cloaca theory. So that's what I think. Josephine Riesman (46:39.222) Yeah, I think Superman has a cloaca, but that's me. Sam Thielman (46:39.927) It's more interesting than the Nabokov Larry Niven thing about how he would kill Lois if he had sex with her. Josephine Riesman (46:46.071) Yes? SI (46:47.394) It's really, yeah. Josephine Riesman (46:49.058) I just, but what I'm trying to say is like, I think right now, I'm not saying, you know, this is what the movie was going for, but I wish the movie had been going for something that was about what Sarah is talking about, this need now that suddenly people are facing to hide, to hide who they are because the world is cruel to them and they have to hide their heritage, especially because everyone thinks their heritage. SI (47:15.952) to hide their heritage, have to hide their gender, they have to hide a lot of it. But right now, we're in a situation where... Josephine Riesman (47:18.83) They have to their gender, they have to hide everything. And this was not a movie about hiding. Sam Thielman (47:24.065) Well, it wasn't a movie about hiding from the public, but I do think that, and I want to be careful here because this is not my, I mean, I'm an ally in this, but I'm not dealing with any of this stuff myself. But I felt very strongly that when there's that, that Pa Kent has that speech about like, children aren't for their parents, right? Like children aren't, like they're not there. Josephine Riesman (47:36.098) Go on, yes. Josephine Riesman (47:51.02) Yeah, sure. Sam Thielman (47:52.299) for their children aren't there to make their parents happy. The parents are there to give tools to their kids. I think I'm coming out, I know I'm coming out of a different context than you both are, but also the level of the sort of parental rights movement and the way sort of parental repression is kind of the tip of the spear in anti-trans-militation in this country. I felt like that was a very, Josephine Riesman (48:04.44) That's fair. SI (48:13.816) Yep, yep, you're not wrong. Sam Thielman (48:21.675) pointed shot at those folks and I appreciated it. know, just as someone with. SI (48:25.924) I did, it's really funny because like when the extended message from Jarell and Lara was playing, I'm like, texting Josie, I'm like, my God, Jarell is so natalist now. And so you're not wrong. I think we got that. I think you're right on that. But like, I also feel like to me, that's why it doesn't make any sense that someone raised by the Kents would care that much about what Sam Thielman (48:33.953) Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Mm-hmm. SI (48:55.79) Jor-El fucking has to say about, you know, the future of the Kryptonian race and securing a future. Josephine Riesman (49:04.302) I mean the movie says that but also I think that he wouldn't have even cared about the original voicemail as much as he cared about what the Kent's told him. Sam Thielman (49:05.098) Well, and I Sam Thielman (49:10.495) I don't agree with that. think when people are adopted and they have one tiny scrap of information about their birth parents, they really hang on to it and make that like an important thing to them. Josephine Riesman (49:21.966) I'm not an expert. I'm not gonna say about when it comes to adoption. I'm saying simply from like Superman stories, like the whole point is that he gets most of his morality usually, not always, and there can be great exceptions to this, but the idea is that he was raised by very moral people and that without that, it would have gone differently. SI (49:44.848) Again, if you want to see this really explored in a beautiful way, My Adventures with Superman really takes this theme and kicks ass with it. It is fantastic. They really do a beautiful job of it, and I would have been happy to see anything as coherent as that on the screen in live action. Those writers are fucking great. Josephine Riesman (49:49.848) Yeah. Sam Thielman (49:50.54) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (49:54.509) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (50:01.345) Yeah. Sam Thielman (50:08.347) I had another thing. Josephine Riesman (50:09.56) How much time do we have? I know you said 45 minutes you wanted to limit it to, I don't know, but. Flaming Hydra (50:14.449) We're beyond 45 minutes, so I think right now we should just go around one at a time and just, you know. Josephine Riesman (50:23.874) Favorite Superman story? Flaming Hydra (50:26.749) Your favorite Superman movie or where this is on the on the list of Superman movies now Josephine Riesman (50:32.415) I would love to hear just really quickly what everyone's favorite individual Superman story and it can be a movie, a comic show, whatever is. Sam Thielman (50:38.902) Mm. SI (50:41.428) god. Flaming Hydra (50:41.639) Well, personally, like the one where loses his... Kryptonite becomes... Doesn't hurt him anymore. He loses his powers anyway. And he becomes weaker and weaker. And it's... What I always wanted, which was middle-aged Superman who's losing his juice. He's losing his mojo and he has to continue to compensate to get things done. And he's very grumpy. I would... Sam Thielman (51:05.825) Yeah. SI (51:06.48) Old man, old man Kalil. Sam Thielman (51:09.503) Old man go hell. Flaming Hydra (51:09.543) just totally like worried about the escrow on his mortgage and stuff. He fly, his back hurts. Josephine Riesman (51:09.665) Yeah. Sam Thielman (51:14.837) Yeah, right. Josephine Riesman (51:16.16) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam Thielman (51:19.369) Yeah, 401k is not doing that well, yeah. Josephine Riesman (51:26.05) Sam, what's your favorite Superman story? Sam Thielman (51:29.238) I'm thinking, Josie, do you have one handy? Because I'm wrestling with myself, so I want to know. Josephine Riesman (51:33.418) Yeah, I'm actually, you know, I think about it a lot and I wrestle with which one is my favorite. I don't know that this is like, it's certainly not the most readable and it's absolutely the last one you would hand to somebody who's never read a Superman story. But Grant Morrison and Doug Manke's Superman Beyond 3D from the Final Crisis series. Sam Thielman (51:57.736) that's a beautiful book, yeah. Josephine Riesman (51:58.89) is one of the most amazing and beautiful exegesis of what makes Superman work as a character that I've ever consumed in any medium. It's dense as hell, like it's really hard to follow. Yeah, and that it's a brilliant story. It's, really, and Morrison is trans, it's non-binary. And I think that all, almost all of my favorite Superman stories are Grant Morrison stories. And I think it's because Moz understands what it means to be. Sam Thielman (52:02.86) Yeah. know when he... But the music at the end, it's really... It's great. Sam Thielman (52:17.078) Mm-hmm. Josephine Riesman (52:26.498) different to be an outsider to be hidden, all those things in a way that say, Jeff Johns does not. So anyway, that's my favorite. Sam Thielman (52:36.183) I love the one where he and Lois are, he gives Lois superpowers and then Samson and yeah, from All-Star Superman, from All-Star Superman, it's Samson and it's like, well, the Sphinx appears, but I was actually reading this earlier today and I was like, man, this is fantastic. Yeah, who swears by Yahweh in the same way that like, Josephine Riesman (52:44.203) from All-Star Superman or Silver? from All-Star, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Josephine Riesman (52:51.214) Yeah, it's Samson and like the Sphinx or something. Josephine Riesman (52:57.95) Right, they have like the actual Hebrew Samson from time. Sam Thielman (53:04.833) Thor swears by Odin, it's very funny. Josephine Riesman (53:06.848) It's a very goofy story, but seeing Lois with superpowers is a very fun story. really dig that one. Zach, do you have a particular favorite? Sam Thielman (53:13.463) Yeah, Atlas. Sorry. Josephine Riesman (53:17.279) Atlas, that was it. Zach (53:20.294) I, if I had to pick one out of thin air, I would say Superman number 400 from 1984, an Elliot S. Maggott penned anniversary issue with art by every great comic book artist who had ever lived up to that point in time. It is about not Superman himself as a personality, but about various SI (53:29.145) Wow. Sam Thielman (53:34.068) everyone. Sam Thielman (53:38.039) to Ranko, Frank Miller, yeah. Zach (53:45.766) points in various futures at which Superman has become a legend for society and the effect that he has had on it, which I think if I were to offer a closing thought to this podcast would be that my interpretation of what the ideal Superman story can and should do is say something not about how Superman changes, but about how we change because of Superman as a society and a culture. SI (53:53.401) Amazing. Josephine Riesman (54:12.383) that's so right, Zach. That's really beautifully put. Zach (54:18.67) I'm glad you think so because I'm currently working on a flaming hydro written essay that will be published on that theme. So that is my preview of that. But that is what I think that that comic gets to. And so I would recommend it to readers who can find it. Josephine Riesman (54:23.191) Ha SI (54:32.151) I can't wait to read it. I'm not sure it gets better than the version of the Donner film where you fast forward past all of the action parts that I grew up on. But before I was obsessed with Superman, I was obsessed with Cinderella. I obsessed with various versions of the Cinderella story. And it took me a while to realize that I began, I love Superman because it was just another version of that story. Sam Thielman (54:35.744) I think. Sam Thielman (55:04.691) Hahaha! Josephine Riesman (55:06.506) No, she's right. She's done. Listen to this thesis. SI (55:06.544) And. Sam Thielman (55:07.883) That's a really good, I mean, that's a take I would really like to read. Yeah. What's closest to that in your estimation? SI (55:11.118) Yeah, no, it's exactly the same story. SI (55:17.264) I mean, probably the Donner film. the, what makes those things? Because they're stories about somebody who, in their real person, is unseen and unloved, and can transform into this ideal version that's very visible and very, like, glamorous and, you know, capable of doing things they could never do in their ordinary life, and is loved and admired by all, but that's not really who they are. Josephine Riesman (55:19.276) No, no, but I mean like what makes that close? SI (55:47.472) And as themselves and their own person, it's dangerous for them to be discovered. So they always have to make that choice of whether they should continue to be, you know, adulated and not known or allow them, you know, take the terrible risk of allowing themselves to be seen. But also, I really love this one fan fiction called Mercy by a writer named Coy Mistress, is a Clark Lex fiction in which Lex spends the entire story trying to figure out whether he can, whether it turns that question on its head. Instead of Clark having to decide whether he can be known, Lex has to decide whether he can allow himself to believe that Clark is an actual good person or whether he's a soulless alien who's come to destroy them. basically whether you can believe not that other people can see that you're real, but whether other people that you love can be real as well. And I think it's so beautifully done because that always is the question about Superman. How do we know that he's good? You know, that was kind of what was brought up in this movie and there's a lot of grist on that bone. And I really love the way this fan writer explored that and explored the tension of, know, can you allow yourself to believe that somebody else might be good and have your best intentions at heart? Sam Thielman (57:33.335) Yeah. Josephine Riesman (57:34.784) And that somebody else who's different from you has the same cognition, struggles, and heart as you. That's what I love about that fanfic that you introduced me to, is it's Lex struggling with the ultimate problem of what all the evil people in this world struggle with, which is empathy. He's struggling to believe that there is a thinking mind like his, that there is a mind that can feel pain and deserves happiness. SI (57:40.334) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. SI (57:54.159) Yeah. SI (58:02.032) And it's cool because we live in a world where we actually now do have super villain multi-billionaires who convince themselves that they live in a projection and they're the only real person in the universe. Josephine Riesman (58:03.668) inside this alien body. And I love that story. Sam Thielman (58:19.607) And I think honestly, that's one of the flaws in the Luthor character, I think, is that he's sort of an, he is on some level, like, not an altruist, but greedy enough to want to treat the whole world well because he thinks he owns it all. And like, that's not how Elon Musk operates at all. Like, they're just bastards. Like, there's no, it'd be nice if they had that kind of a like, you know. SI (58:24.729) Yeah, me too. Josephine Riesman (58:36.534) That's not who those people are now, no. SI (58:39.682) Yeah, we can't... Zach (58:42.63) If we take Luther at his word, and I'm not sure that either the movie or the similar comic depictions ever actually ask us to, that is certainly how Luther would like the world to think of his intention, but Superman actually puts them to the test in a way that, for the first time, proved that he's been completely full of it. Sam Thielman (58:49.461) Yeah, sure. Sam Thielman (58:55.285) Yeah. SI (58:56.548) in these. Sam Thielman (59:01.877) Yeah, I SI (59:01.988) Yeah, I'm sure over much any point in the week. Josephine Riesman (59:07.458) No. SI (59:22.415) Yep. Josephine Riesman (59:23.192) For the man who has everything, yeah, it's great. SI (59:25.392) classic. Sam Thielman (59:31.379) And I was talking to Zach about this the other day, but Jor-El becoming bitter and depressed and joining the National Front is like, that's, it's really specific. It's, it's, he gets away with it because it's an imaginary story or whatever, but it's, yeah. Josephine Riesman (59:41.557) It's brilliant! SI (59:43.396) Just like Atticus. Josephine Riesman (59:48.844) Well, and it's an imaginary story and I know we're all fighting to have the last word, because that's how we are. But like for me, for the man who has everything, the scene that breaks my heart every time I can bring myself to reread it, because I get very emotional reading it. I do. I read it aloud to you and cried. Is Clark, sorry, is Cal? Sam Thielman (59:55.457) Mm-hmm. SI (01:00:04.752) It does. She cries. SI (01:00:09.679) I know. big part of our relationship. Josephine Riesman (01:00:15.574) is Cal saying to his son, God help me, I'm so sorry, I don't think you're real. Which is what we all have to say to Superman at some point in our lives. We have to say, God help me, I don't think you're real, but I love you anyway and I'm going to live my life in a way that would have saved you, that would have made you proud even though you're not real. Sam Thielman (01:00:17.067) Yeah, I don't think you're real. Yeah. Sam Thielman (01:00:24.055) Well, and this is the Sam Thielman (01:00:29.377) Joey. Zach (01:00:36.902) He will disappear, but you take some part of him with you into the world in which you have to return. SI (01:00:37.146) mean, that's the truth. Josephine Riesman (01:00:40.652) Yes. Yes. Flaming Hydra (01:00:43.137) Okay, we're at an hour. think just everybody real fast, your final word on this movie. Just real quick, your final word on this movie. We'll start with SI. SI (01:00:52.41) Blah. Flaming Hydra (01:00:54.161) Josephine. Josephine Riesman (01:00:55.406) Thumbs down. Flaming Hydra (01:00:57.202) Zack. Zach (01:00:58.928) comic book movie. Flaming Hydra (01:01:01.02) Sam. Sam Thielman (01:01:02.763) I loved it. I think it's a great rehabilitation of a character who is basically just popular because he sold war bonds. Flaming Hydra (01:01:13.949) Okay, I thought it was okay. You know, it was bright. was a comic book movie I forgot about as soon as I walked out of the theater. But it was fun. Sam Thielman (01:01:19.425) Yeah Josephine Riesman (01:01:19.604) And with that... SI (01:01:21.838) that consensus. Flaming Hydra (01:01:25.307) The flaming hydro roundtable has spoken. SI (01:01:25.424) Bye bye! Josephine Riesman (01:01:27.726) This was the most, you know what? Soon Man was created by a Jew and this was just a Talmudic argument where we end with saying, maybe someday the Messiah will come and tell us what the right answer was, because we don't know. Sam Thielman (01:01:28.172) Yes, we've spoken so much. Zach (01:01:42.31) Well, I do like that we sort of ended with the consensus of what Superman is, is basically a five cent comic book that you read and then just like toss it to a friend and say, all right, now you're ready, we're done. I'm going off and doing something else. It's 1940, what do care? SI (01:01:43.702) I have no idea. Sam Thielman (01:01:57.495) I got bigger things to worry about. Zach (01:02:00.342) Yeah, we got a real war about to break out, look. I got other things on my mind, okay? SI (01:02:06.192) I love you guys. Flaming Hydra (01:02:06.949) I'm gonna stop recording, but I need everybody to stay in place. SI (01:02:10.864) Okay.