Mike (00:01.358)
Okay. Hey everybody, welcome to the Delgado podcast. I'm super excited to have Jacob Sermeno  on the show today. Jacob is a licensed clinical social worker, a therapist, a case manager. He's also a doctoral candidate in social work at California Baptist University. And I think you're graduating like really soon. Is that right, Jacob?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (00:22.614)
God willing, I graduated in August of this year, 2024.

Mike (00:25.902)
That is awesome, congratulations. So I got exposed to you through Dr. Laito's class. We were having a session on grief and complicated grief, and you were our guest lecturer. And it was actually one of my favorite lectures in the entire semester, was hearing you share a little bit about your journey working with others who are grieving. And I thought maybe if we could start this podcast,

with you maybe sharing a little bit about your academic journey and social work, and then what led you to begin working with those who are grieving, and anything else you wanna share in that journey.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (01:07.766)
Sure, absolutely. So when it comes to my academic progress, I started very young, choosing to become a social worker because I actually did a project in ninth grade. In high school, yes, we were supposed to have like a career shadow day where you just pick somebody that you know you understand and what kind of job do they do, write a report about it. If you could witness them do their job, go ahead and do that and just kind of write it up.

Mike (01:21.134)
Really?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (01:36.982)
So it was meant to be a minor project. I chose my neighbor who happened to work in Child Protective Services for Orange County. And she was a social worker and I liked what she did and I wanted to know more about that profession. So that kind of just stuck with me like, social work is kind of cool. Working with children is kind of fun. And she did high risk extractions and things like that. So she was actually like really exciting seeing that from a child's perspective, the idea of what's going on, not really understanding what all the.

parts went into like extracting children from homes. But I liked the title social worker, so I kind of stuck with that. Then as I got a little bit older, unfortunately, social work hit me again very personally because my father passed away. And we were inside of a hospital and the hospital social worker had to come and talk to us. And she was there trying to provide counseling for us and trying to make sure that we understood what was going on. And she was there for the family.

And that's when I really understood that sometimes a social worker's client may be somebody who's on paper, but really she's doing work with families and systems. So for me, that really changed the idea of what a social worker could be. And that actually got me even more involved in being a social worker. So by the time I was able to graduate high school and move into college, I knew I wanted to be a social worker. I went to Cal State LA. I...

declared as an undergrad because it was a very impacted program at the time. So you could not enter in as a social work major. You had to enter in undeclared. And then I was able to sneak in. The whole time though, I thought I was going to work with children. I thought I was going to be a youth and family social worker. Then I started listening to the classes and then I started talking to my advisor and I was completely wrong. And I was steered immediately into older adults and families.

And I fell in love with it. Working in geriatrics, working with older adults was really became my passion. And I was good with it because I became practiced. I was different from other people because I had experience in loss. I had experience in understanding how medical institutions worked, how chronic illness worked. So I was able to navigate that way. And that really, from that point forward, it was all said and done. I just started.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (03:55.702)
working with older adults, I started working in grief and loss and medical. And I kind of specialized that. I got my masters or I graduated from Cal State LA with my bachelor's in social work, went on to Cal State Long Beach with my master's in social work, still specializing in older adults. And my internships, I was very specific. I wanted to work in hospitals and hospices. And so I got placed inside of a nursing home, which actually did both. It got me the medical and I was the...

hospice liaison for the nursing homes. So basically working with those individuals who were heading towards end of life care. And that's kind of just how my education in older adult practices really worked. And then from that point forward, I became more specialized in geriatrics and I started doing geriatric psych programs and I moved on to a lock psychiatric hospital helping to expand their gerosike ward.

going from seven beds to 20 beds. And I think right now they're up to 25 beds. And I've, it's been a journey. I'd never thought I was going to go into psych, therapy practices, but I'm there now I'm now clinical psychologist, excuse me, clinical supervisor for a jail, which is a setting I never thought I was going to be in. But it really speaks to the idea of where social work can take you. It goes massive, but I,

Mike (04:57.294)
Wow.

Wow.

Mike (05:16.462)
Mmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (05:22.582)
Love my roots working with older adults in geriatrics.

Mike (05:26.56)
That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that beautiful journey. And interesting how kind of you were prepared through life, like having experienced grief and loss very early in your life and then seeing, getting exposure to the social work profession. I'm curious when, you know, you mentioned how originally you wanted to work with children and family. Like that was kind of like, that's where I want to be. And then what was it that,

ended up pushing you towards geriatric and then working with older populations initially. What was it that steered you that way?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (06:05.046)
Yeah, cause I think like with almost any profession or with any person's development, you understand what you see around you. So for me, my neighbor who was close to our family, I saw her work with children. So I was in my mind, it was perfectly normal work with children, but really getting to speak with my counselor from Cal State LA, who really sat me down and told me the differentials like, okay, you're not really holding your boundary skills very well with children.

You seem upset by these situations. It's affecting you emotionally. Is this what you want to do? Versus when I would get vignettes that I had to deal with older adults, I was much more able to really think through things and give myself that clinical perspective to help them while not hurting myself.

Mike (06:41.742)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (06:57.91)
So really it was speaking with my counselor from Cal State LA that was really just a light bulb. Like, okay, I can't, if I work with children, I'm gonna burn out and hurt. Versus if I work with older adults, I can thrive and I can help.

Mike (07:06.894)
Mmm.

Hmm. That's awesome that you found that like early on in your academic journey and then, you know, pursued that through your, your early social work. as you began, what were, maybe some of the challenges that you faced, working with, older populations, experiencing grief and loss and maybe some things you would share to social workers who are.

just entering that field or maybe beginning their first internship.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (07:40.854)
Well, when we work with older adults, a lot of times that means anybody from 40 years and above. I mean, it's sad to say that it's 40 years and above. Usually, it should be 65 and older. But they are older individuals. And when you're in your bachelor's degree, chances are you're still in your 20s, although some individuals are not. So the first resistance I got was my age. When I started my bachelor's, I was still

When I got my first internship, I was 20 years old. And so I wasn't even able to drink and people are asking me, well, who are you and how could you tell me this? Right? What's going on with that? But letting them know it's not so much that me, my age is what's bothering you. You're trying to know, do I understand your situation? Right? So giving them a little bit of self -disclosure in order to aid that rapport building is what was key for me.

Mike (08:19.022)
Yeah.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (08:40.534)
because I could relate to them on a very specific way. However, it's also drawing that line that my self -disclosure is not about me, right? And I should never give them more information that is necessary. So letting them know, yes, I know what loss is. I understand what it is to have those severe and sudden and traumatic loss, but also we're not here to grieve me in this moment. This is about what do you need?

Mike (09:11.726)
Yeah.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (09:11.926)
So that was the big push is, do I understand what I'm speaking about? And do I understand the perspective that they're coming from? And so using that little bit of self -disclosure, but enough to actually build that rapport.

Mike (09:27.254)
That's really, really good advice. What about when a clinician or a young therapist is working with a client and maybe they haven't experienced that particular type of loss, maybe a loss of mobility or maybe a loss of a religious community or faith and that person hasn't experienced it. And so it's maybe hard to build rapport.

Because like you said, you were able to build rapport with certain individuals who experienced maybe a death of a loved one and you could like build rapport because you had that experience. But when you're working with an individual where their grief is maybe based on something else where you don't have that experience, how do you build rapport with that type of client?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (10:15.574)
Yeah, the fallback is always cultural humility, right? Letting the person, our patient, our client, however we're entitling them, letting them be the expert of their situation, right? Because even if they had a loss that was similar to mine, we are not dealing with it in the same way. I am not the same person as they are. They are the expert of their situation. And so just approaching it in that manner, like, listen, you need to tell me what you're going through because only you understand what you're feeling right now. I'm not a mind reader.

Could you please help me to understand what's going on?

Mike (10:49.718)
Yeah, when you are working with different individuals sometimes and I know even with me it could be hard for me to grieve out loud like I like to like hold things in and and deny like denial one of those stages of grief I tend to like stay there for a long time personally and so if someone was to ask me about are you grieving?

I'd probably like, no, I'm not grieving. I'm just, you know, I'd probably say something like, I don't know, having a hard time. I wouldn't use that language. Cause I, it's something that's hard for me to communicate that I kind of shut down. So I'm kind of curious, like, how do you work with somebody who is, who you can see like symptoms of grief? Like you can see, you, you know, they're experiencing grief. and, but how do you maybe approach somebody who's maybe in that denial stage or.

really shut down.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (11:51.606)
So sometimes, well, always, we should meet the client where they're at. And if they're not ready to discuss it in those terms, that's fine. But we as the experts understand what they're going through or what stage they should be falling in. If we're talking about the five stages of grief, the adaptive stages, we could understand that, yes, they might be stuck in this denial. They don't want to discuss denial. That's fine. Let's then, though,

try to work within it without having to use the vocab of that, just to see if we can get them to move along or at least get them comfortable with starting to discuss it later. But I'm not going to push them more than they need to. I'm not going to try to force education down their throats because then I'm going to lose them in terms of the connection. But maybe just trying to get them to say, OK, fine, we're not grieving or anything like that. But tell me, how did your day go? Were you able to interact with somebody?

How are you doing with other things? And kind of covertly get them to speak on just their functionality when it comes to denial, to see if they're willing to start using that language. Or if they're just going to stay there, they're going to stay there. We're going to stay there with them and just move as slow as they need to to get through the stages, if we're going through the Kibler -Ross five stages.

Mike (13:14.382)
Do you find that the Kubler -Ross model, do you find it helpful?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (13:21.43)
Yes and no. It is very helpful because it's what people understand. It's been in our vernacular for a while now, so it's easier for people just to kind of latch onto it. However, it comes with that idea that it's linear. And grief is not linear. You know, grief is not, it's not these five stages that are going to go from A, B, C, D. It's not. There's just no way. So it is helpful because it's clean. It's easy to grasp.

However, as the professionals, we have to tell people, listen, it doesn't always go in this order and it doesn't always just hit once. Sometimes it's gonna start back over, sometimes it's gonna repeat itself. Sometimes you're gonna get stuck in it for a while and that's okay. And that's fine. And grieving doesn't look the same to any two people for any situation and that's okay. But it is nice because it's easier to explain to individuals. It's more digestible and sometimes that's just what we need.

We just need them to latch onto something so they have a carrot to carry with them so they understand what they're going.

Mike (14:24.974)
Yeah, I think the very first time I was exposed to that model was I think like probably undergrad and like learning about denial, anger, bargaining. And I thought it was like, that's the way it works, Jacob. I thought, you you go through denial, then it's anger and you kind of work through these stages. Then you get to acceptance and then you're done. But then like. Right. But then like anybody who's gone through loss and grief, you're like.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (14:36.118)
Mm -hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (14:44.086)
Haha, man, done! Cured! Fine! Everything's great!

Mike (14:53.902)
No, you're not, it's never done.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (14:56.566)
Yeah, there's no such thing as this idea like, okay, well, now I get to just go out through my day and that'll never affect me ever again. No. And before that, even the books would tell us in our education, we would say a loss takes about a year for somebody to process and then all of a sudden they're cured. No, that's not how it works. Even some losses could be sooner than a year. Some losses could be way prolonged, right? And so we get into the idea of complicated grief and then even then,

It's even more prolonged and it becomes pathologized at that point. It becomes a disease or an illness. But grieving is normal, right? And there's no wrong way to grieve until it affects your functioning. Then we can start calling it an illness. Then we can pathologize it. Then we can start giving you a DSM diagnosis if you want it. But there's no wrong way to grieve. There's no right way to grieve and everyone's gonna grieve different. The timelines are gonna be different.

you're going to go through the stages a multitude of times. But the goal is to go through the stages and every time cry a little less, right? Every time be able to bounce back a little faster, right? That should be the ultimate goal. Just because the loss is still with us, we still carry that. The person doesn't come back. So we have to recognize that, yeah, we're gonna be reminded of that.

Mike (16:09.486)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (16:23.317)
We're still gonna think about them, we're still gonna have them in our hearts and that's okay to have those bad days and that's fine. But the period of time that I had those bad days is now elongated, right? Where now it's not a constant fixation about the loss. I'm able to go throughout my day and be fine. That's the ultimate goal. I have more good days than I have bad days.

Mike (16:47.31)
Can you talk about like when does it become dysfunction? Because there's sometimes, and I know that I've experienced this with grief and loss where I've gone through very dark, you know, dark nights of the soul, bouts of depression. And sometimes when you're in that moment, you don't know or you're not even thinking about is this dysfunctional to me.

You're not really thinking in those terms. But when you're working with an individual who may be suffering, what are some signs to you that maybe it's becoming a dysfunction? And maybe for those listening in, they may be going through a period of grief and are wondering, is this becoming complicated grief for me? Is this becoming dysfunctional for me?

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (17:38.39)
So when, well, let's set complicated and dysfunctional grief aside for a second. Complicated grief we'll put off to the side. But dysfunction in general, if a person is unable to socially interact anymore, if they're no longer taking care of themselves, their ADL care has gone down. There is a physical change, so weight loss or weight gain.

you know, the drastic change to sleep functioning if they're sleeping more than they used to or sleeping way less than they used to, anything like that that is a prolonged period, right? That's what we talk about when it comes to the functionality, right? Which should sound very familiar to a lot of people who are listening to this podcast. Those just general changes in their daily function, it becomes pathological, it becomes an illness if it's sustained and now you're no longer...

capable of doing what you used to do. So you can have those bad days where you don't want to get out of bed and you're not taking a shower and you just feel cruddy all day long. Have that two, three days, but now you're missing work for a week. That's a problem. Now it's affecting your paycheck. Now it's affecting your ability to pay your rent. That's a problem. So as soon as we're starting to affect multitudes of areas of our lives, we can start pathologizing it. That's when it becomes severe.

Mike (18:37.518)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (19:06.006)
But until that point, yes, we have bad days. We have days I don't want to get out of bed. We have days I don't want to take a shower. We have days where I'm eating away my feelings or I just don't feel like eating at all. And that's okay. Those are fine. Have those days. I used to tell people like, it's okay to have a pity party. It's okay to just cry it out, have that pity party. But just like with any other party, know when to leave. Feel that. Congratulations, you're a human. Feel that emotion. You're welcome to it.

Mike (19:18.318)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (19:31.086)
Mm -hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (19:36.822)
But when it starts to affect your ability to function in other parts of your life, it's gone too far. And that's probably when we need to start asking for help or listen when our supportive people are telling us, hey, do you want help? Do you need help? Can I call somebody for you or should I just be here? Listen to those around you because they probably see something that you're not looking at. Now, when it comes to the complicated grief part of it too, it's that avoidance of the subject.

Mike (20:00.302)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (20:07.158)
or the extreme connection or the unwillingness to let go. So I don't want to talk about death and I don't want to talk about that person. I don't want any of that. Or how could I not think about them every single day of my life? That's when it becomes the complicated grief. It's that extreme, like a pendulum symptom, either wanting to talk about it all the time or never wanting to discuss it ever. That's when we can start throwing in the complicated grief part.

Mike (20:37.486)
And I think that's the big struggle. I mean, I think going to grief therapy is very, very hard because a lot of times we're trying to avoid those feelings. but part of healing for many of us is being able to express it in a healthy way and going to see a therapist, a counselor talking to somebody about it is like a first step to kind of opening the heart.

Do you find that, like with how, like when you work with different people, different cultures or genders, how that changes the way that they grieve? I'm thinking about even just like being in Western culture as a man. I find it very, very hard to cry. And it's really bad because when I'm grieving, I need to cry.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (21:29.494)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (21:35.246)
And I want to cry, but I hold my like for some reason, like kind of the Western view of man, the way that I was raised is like men don't cry. And so but when I finally do cry, it's like the best thing ever, because I can like physically like get it out. And I feel so much better after I cry in therapy or just even.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (21:52.918)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (22:04.27)
when I'm not in therapy, just crying about something. What would you say for those maybe in a, whether gender or culture, that is maybe in some way, I don't know if it's restricting or holding back the healing process in some way, I'm not quite sure how to phrase it.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (22:29.398)
almost like this idea of like a toxic cultural expectation.

Mike (22:34.51)
Yes, that's right.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (22:37.366)
Yeah, so there are a lot of cultures, especially for men, right? That level of expectation about how much emotion you're allowed to express, if you're allowed to express it at all, if you are only allowed to express it in private, in front of family members, or if you're expected to completely be public about it. And that's okay, because again, there's...

Mike (23:01.646)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (23:05.014)
that culture, if that's what's expected, that's what it's expected. What I tell individuals, if you are coming to me for therapy at this point in time, it is a safe space. I want to make sure that they have a safe space, but we start to break down this idea of listening to your body, right? Go beyond the cultural expectation. What does your body want from you? Because we do sometimes just feel this anger,

and that anger could actually just be us welling up inside and we might just need to cry. But we don't want to associate it with the death. We maybe want to associate it with something else. So maybe we want to cry for joy, right? So sometimes just going on to a YouTube video and watching something that's more joyous, but we're expressing what our body's asking for us and we're getting that trigger from something different. So it kind of gives us a little bit permission to do something differently and just letting our body do what it wants to do.

So if I do have a culturally complicated individual who's trying to be at odds with their own culture, trying to phrase it in a different way or give them a permission in a different way, that kind of just allows them to listen to their body. That's the more important thing. Just whatever your body needs, if it is to cry, if it's to hit something, right? Sometimes we need to express anger. My general rule of thumb, nothing that breaks, nothing that cries out.

So it can't be a person and it can't be something fragile, right? So find a punching bag, find a blanket, find a mattress. All right, nothing that breaks, nothing that's going to cry out. So things like that, if we, for some women, right, they're supposed to be the caretaker. They're supposed to be the one who's worried about everybody else. But you know what? In their depression, sometimes they can't and giving them permission to just say no.

giving them permission to step back and tell people, I can't be there today. I'm sorry. Right? So teaching them how to listen to their body and do what their body needs for them. Cause maybe for that day, they just need to be in bed, right? Or maybe for that day, they just need to be outside and take some deep breaths and have some fresh air. Right? So just teaching people, listen to your body. Even if it goes against your cultural norms, we can probably find a way to work within them.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (25:27.222)
for a different kind of trigger that may not be associated with loss, but it gives your body that permission to do what it needs.

Mike (25:36.366)
really, really helpful. And you bring up another area in the, when you presented to our class, you talked about grief adjacent, which are the term I never heard before. But it's you're talking about how those who are grief adjacent to individuals who are grieving, so maybe like it's your partner who is grieving and they need space. But sometimes we don't know, like the right words to say.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (25:53.302)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (26:04.43)
We might not even know what it means to sit with somebody who is grieving. And what, what advice would you say to somebody who they have a loved one, right? Who is grieving, or a coworker, colleague, classmate, they're grieving. And the natural response, Jacob, for me, I'll tell you is like, I just, I'm just going to get away. I, I'm like, I'm scared. I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm kind of like, just kind of got that Homer Simpson thing where he kind of blends into the, the bushes.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (26:27.026)
Yeah.

Mike (26:34.222)
Like that's totally me when someone's suffering because I want to be there, but then I'm like, I don't want to say something wrong Yeah

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (26:34.518)
Right.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (26:41.782)
Okay, yeah. But you tried, and that's okay. That's the important part. So grief -adjacent individuals have it hard because it's very uncomfortable in this Western American culture of ours. We do not practice grief openly. We do not like to talk about death openly, and emotions make us uncomfortable. So we get nervous about certain things, and this goes beyond just grief. We get nervous about going to hospitals.

We get nervous about somebody gets promoted while another person kind of just stayed where they were. And so there's an emotional loss there. And we just get awkward feelings. You're not going to know the right thing to say. That's okay. You're not going to be the expert in the situation. And that's okay. Because sometimes the important thing to do is just stand next to them. And hey, if you need me, let me know. And just stay there.

Sometimes it's just that proximity that gives that person a permission. If you're willing and comfortable and able to, I don't know the level of the relationship with the individual, but if you want to provide physical contact, please do. If that seems appropriate in that situation, do it. We are physical people. We like to be caressed. We like touch. And that can be very comforting. And sometimes that's just all that's needed.

We don't have the answers. We won't have the answers. We won't have the best thing to say in the moment. And that's okay. We just got to do the best that we can and let that person know, I am here when you want me, if you want me. I can hear you. I can listen to you, but I won't have the answers. But if you just want to talk, if you want to discuss, if you want to just go take a walk, let's go take a walk. Right? If you just want to be in that moment, having that connection.

Knowing you're not going to be able to provide that answers. So just get that out of your mind That's not your goal in this situation. It should not be to fix their problem Because they are people that are allowed to feel I'm not there to fix it. Okay. Let me tell you men who are listening to this podcast Just because somebody's in pain doesn't mean you have to fix it Sometimes you're not going to Just being there letting them know that you utter that you understand that in that moment. They have a heavy emotion

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (29:05.494)
and that's all they need. That's it.

Does that even make sense?

Mike (29:09.838)
That's yeah, that totally does and that's that's the right that's totally the right answer I think and it's so and it's really sad Jake because I'm like I'm in a social work program Like I'm studying this right? I'm interning it and then in my own life like I have a friend right now who's mourning I have a lot of loved one who just passed away And I send over an email To let him know that I'm thinking about him and let me know what I can do

But even now I'm still like thinking about him and like, gosh, like I don't know what to say. So even though I'm like studying and trying my best, I'm still like getting this place where I'm scared.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (29:52.95)
But being honest in that kind of situation, because we do get those sudden like, I just remember that person, I wonder how they're doing. If you could just send them a really honest text message or however you like to communicate with your person, letting them know, hey, you popped into my mind. And that's all it has to be. Right? No secondary agenda, nothing like that. You could just tell them like, I had a quick thought about you. Hi. You know?

Mike (30:20.224)
Yeah.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (30:20.63)
And then allowing them that space like, that's nice if they want to respond. Sometimes they don't want to respond and that's fair and that's fine and that's their choice. If you are that pushy person who wants to see how they're doing, being honest in that situation, hey, I thought about you, how are you doing? Do you want to get together? Can I call you? But also leaving that choice to them and respecting the choice because the answer could be no. And we're going to respect that. Try again in a month.

It's very, what I think is sad about a lot of American culture is that we go to funerals and we have the reception and everything like that, and we grieve with the family and a person in that short period of time. And then the support kind of trickles away. In other cultures, there is this idea that, like in the Jewish faith, one year after a passing and somebody has,

been interned, in a year we all come back and we unveil the gravestone. And so you have an extra time period where people get to be supportive once again. In some Pacific Islander countries, people's families' homes are open for a year in an open house kind of situation. So.

Mike (31:24.334)
Hmm.

Mike (31:43.79)
Hmm.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (31:45.206)
People can constantly come in and out and make sure that that family is taken care of and they're okay. So grief practices like that are really beneficial because that family feels support for a long period of time versus like in our American culture, it's one and done, which could be very jarring for some people. So just, if you do have that thought, somebody popped into your mind, you thought about somebody, let them know. Again, you're not there for the answer. Just letting them know that you've thought about them could mean the world of difference.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (32:43.414)
So, I'm biased. Please seek out professional help if you feel like that's appropriate for you. If you want to talk to somebody who's not a friend, who's not a family member, so you don't feel that level of judgment or you don't get that level of bias, please do talk to somebody who can just speak with you about it honestly. Now, that being said, if you're not gonna reach out to a therapist and you wanna take care of it yourself, just know.

There's no wrong way to grieve. You are doing okay. You're doing the best that you can in the moment. But please do listen to your support people. If they're letting you know something's wrong, something's amiss, do listen to them, trust them. And realize that it's a cliche. It gets better. It gets easier. The hole gets a little smaller. Does it ever close?

Maybe not fully, but eventually comes to a point where it's only a band -aid size and not a crater. So go through your grieving process knowing that you will get there someday. Recognize that you're able to have great days and give yourself permission to have those great days. Give yourself permission to laugh. Give yourself permission to feel joyous. And on the opposite side, give yourself permission to cry if that's what your body wants. There's no wrong way you're doing.

Okay.

Jacob Sermeno LCSW (34:28.342)
Of course, glad to be here.