Daniel (00:03) It's the joy of board game conventions. On this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. It is so good to have you joining us. Thank you for tuning in. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:40) So good. And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:46) And, you know, wherever you are right now, whether you're listening in your car or at your home or at your work or in a hot air balloon, you've just made our day so much better by, by tuning in. And if no one else has told you, we think you're pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for being you. we appreciate your, your listening today. Kevin (01:02) it's so great. We do, we do. Daniel (01:15) Speaking of being awesome, Kevin, that's just the water you swim in. You're just an awesome human being. How are you doing? Kevin (01:18) Daniel. That's because the water I drink is Aquafina by Daniel Hilty. Daniel (01:32) I don't deserve my own branded water, but thank you. You're very kind. But they could be a sponsor of Play Saves the World. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:35) You It could be a sponsor. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm doing peachy. Yeah, I'm great. We had a weird snowstorm here. It's a bit late for us to get snow in North Carolina, USA. And it snowed for like two days and we had, I don't know, maybe two inches, which is like 500 microns in meters, think, micron meters. yeah, and then it was melted in the next day and it was really nice. Daniel (01:43) Great. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Kevin (02:07) It was the big old flakes, like the big ones that are like pieces of cotton candy almost. Really pretty. And then it's all gone. yeah, it was really nice. Short and sweet. Daniel (02:07) Okay. sounds. My wife Kristen says the best kind of snow is the snow that comes but doesn't stay. That sounds like that's kind of what you had there. Cool. Kevin (02:22) Yes, that's what happened. Yeah, nobody was losing power or anything. How about you? Daniel (02:28) I wonder if, well, yeah, I wonder if it's the same system. We had a late season snow here too this past week. And followed by bitterly cold temperatures. We, for our part of the world, we got down to I think negative seven, negative eight one night. yeah, but I think it's warming up, starting to warm up now, snow starting to melt. negative eight Fahrenheit, of course. Kevin (02:38) Right. Gosh, it is cold. Hmm. Velsius. It's a merger of Fahrenheit and Velsius. Daniel (02:58) Felcius. I remember Felcius the Hamster. Yeah, do you remember? I remember how we make remember that made a little top hat for him with a little monocle. Yeah, yeah. And we tried so hard to get him to dance, to teach him to dance. And he was too lazy. We were like, Felcius, you've got this one life, this one precious life, this one sacred life. What are you going to do with it? Don't you want to dance? Kevin (03:03) Remember you had a hamster named Felcius? Yes, was so great. He's just too lazy. He's just lazy. Yeah. Daniel (03:29) And he said no. Kevin (03:32) But then he did start dancing because you bought him that little stuffed animal, remember? Which was an even smaller stuffed hamster named Kelvin. Kelvin. And Kelvin got Felcius to dance. Yeah, hello Marionette String. Daniel (03:40) Yes, yeah, and he was trying to teach that, yeah, that's right. He was trying to teach his own stuffed animal to dance. And in so doing, he inspired himself to dance. There's a lesson in there. There's a lesson in there about hamster husbandry and dancing. no, no, that was a lot of fun. Teaching the hamster to dance, also a lot of fun. Kevin (03:53) All right. There's a bit since in there. Yes, it's beautiful, beautiful. I'll never forget it. Daniel (04:10) Board game conventions. So Kevin, you have had more experiences with board game conventions than I have. Now first I should say, guess the idea behind this episode is especially, I mean, if you've been to a board game convention, this episode is for you, because hopefully we're speaking your language, we're going to celebrate it with you. But also, if you've never been to a board game convention, this episode is for you as well, because you might be wondering, why would I go to a board game convention? So you've had... Kevin (04:11) my gosh, Daniel. The best. Daniel (04:39) You've had more experiences lately than I have, Kevin. Tell us about your board hate conventions. Kevin (04:42) May yeah, so i've been to three in the past two years. No three four four I went to tantrum con in charlotte twice And it's about a thousand people and then I went to packs unplugged year before last and that's 15 or 20 000. It's one of the big ones in the us. Maybe the second or third biggest It's in philadelphia So pax packs unplugged, uh, I think that's their airport Daniel (05:03) Is that in Philadelphia? Okay. Okay, okay. Kevin (05:13) code and then I went to one that you may not be familiar with it's called Geekway to the West that is in St. Louis, Missouri and I'm going again and Geekway is about 5,000 so it's a good middle ground between tantrum con and it's big and so there's a yeah I've seen some big ones like packs unplugged it was totally lost in the crowds which was kind of cool but kind of weird and then Daniel (05:21) In fact, do know of Geek Way to the West. Is it more than- okay. Kevin (05:43) I've seen Tantrum Con where I've made... I'd see the same people because it's not as big a crowd. What about you? You've gone... How long have you been going to Geekway? Daniel (05:49) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned Geekway. That is the one and only board game convention I've ever been to. I started going there with my friend Jordan, who's been on this podcast, a friend of the podcast, back in 2017. And I think Jordan's been every year, maybe he was suspended once for COVID. I skipped in maybe an additional year or so somewhere because of some things that were going on. But pretty much every year since then, as you said, it's in the St. Louis area in Missouri, which is the middle part of the United States. And yeah, it's just so much fun. And that first year, as I mentioned, it was just joining me every year since then, more and more people in that kind of group of friends have been coming. Yeah, and most recently last year it was you. Kevin (06:45) even including me. Daniel (06:50) and you're coming back and it's just great. We used to share one house together and now we've moved to like two houses or three because it's just getting this group of friends who get together for it every year and just a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, geek way to the West is a lot of fun. So. Kevin (07:00) Hmm. which is a play that St. Louis is known as the Gateway to the West. Because I guess it was the final stop when they went to California for gold or something, or their westward expansion. It was kind of a port. Yeah, the first stop. So it was the Gateway to the Western Frontiers. So this is a play on that, which is Geekway. Because you used to say Geekway. I'm like, why? You're already a geek, Daniel. How is there a way there? Because you're already there. Daniel (07:14) That's right. Or the first stop, maybe. Yeah, yeah. The gateway to the West. Yeah, yeah. Right, I didn't think about that for folks outside of Missouri. Yeah, that would be kind of confusing. Yeah, it's a play on Gateway to the West, which is the name for St. Louis. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (07:41) Well, I got it, eventually. I pulled out some history books and looked at some maps and I was like, huh. Daniel (07:46) Also that, think it's the official name of the St. Louis Arch. I think the St. Louis Arch is also called the, technically the gateway to the West, I believe. Kevin (07:52) gateway but i think it's commemorating that status of st louis because it was on the it's on the river rights of people could come up and and depart Daniel (07:56) That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Do know the original name for the St. Louis Arch besides Gateway for the West? No, was, it was, it was called the giant, giant paperclip. It was the giant, the giant paper. Yeah. Yeah. No, I just made that up. Yeah. It was never called that. no, no. Yeah. So yeah. So, Kevin (08:05) Daniel, healthy. Really? Seriously or is it a joke? okay. Yeah, that's not selling. That's not moving product. It's not gonna work. Yeah. Daniel (08:27) So when you go, so for people, Kevin, that have never been to a board game convention, whether it's Geekway or Pax Unplugged or Tantrum Con, what might someone expect? Here is a new person and let's call them a new person or NP. And NP wanders into a board game convention. What might NP... Kevin (08:39) Okay. Okay. Daniel (08:56) expect to find there at the board game convention. Kevin (08:58) Well, Daniel, there are going to be a couple of zones that are pretty standard in all board game conventions with some varieties. There's generally going to be a very large play hall. So it's going to be a large room with lots of tables. And this is where you can play games, either ones you brought or ones you've checked out from the library or maybe ones that you've purchased at there if they have some retail. The trick is who you're to play with. And you may have a group with you, and that works great. Otherwise, most conventions have these little flags or stands where you can say, looking for players or looking for a teacher. And so one thing you want to do is you might wander around and just see who's open, who's wanting a player, and you jump in on a game. And that's something I didn't do at first, but it's actually pretty important. If you want to meet people, you just have to be willing to kind of jump in if you can and volunteer. Or you set up a game and then say, looking for players and see if you can get someone in on it. But the exhibit hall, or sorry, not the exhibit hall, the playing area, the playing hall is going to be a key space. Right. Daniel (10:03) Was that hard for you to do the first time to go up to a group of strangers and say, how are you? Why are you? Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (10:07) I didn't know it was okay. Yeah, didn't. Well, my first one was Pax and there's so many people. I mean, it is just, it's just, it's hard to estimate just this giant room of people playing like locusts or something. And I felt like everyone had their tribe and it may be at a Pax they do. There's so big people already have their groups. Daniel (10:12) Yeah. Kevin (10:30) But yeah, you do have to kind of be confident. And I saw people do it as well, like, hey, can I get in on this? Or are y'all about to play this? And then they might say, I'm going to circle around, but I may be back. And they may or may not be. And you don't worry about them. If it's a four-player game and you have three people, sometimes people try to barge in, and you just tell them no or yes. And it's all cool. But that's how you meet people. And adjacent to that usually is going to be a board game library where you're going to pay to it. Go to the convention because nothing is free. Most of them aren't making money. It's just covering the cost. But that'll let you check out from their library a game that you are interested in. Either an older game that's out of print or something you always wanted to play and don't have access to. And you can take that to your table and then maybe put a sign up for looking for teacher or you just struggle through the rule book. Or maybe someone in your group knows how to play it. yeah. Would you add anything to that? Daniel (11:27) Sounds good. Yeah, I don't think so. You mentioned that there might also have opportunities to buy games there. So there are sometimes vendors there as well, like people selling things or board game adjacent merchandise. t-shirts or me or pins or dice. Kevin (11:48) Yeah, like D20 dice that are earrings and that kind of stuff or little wooden boxes for rolling dice. So yeah, you're right, game adjacent type crafts, candles. And there may actually be some board game publishers or companies there selling games. And there is often an area for game designers to test their games. So it's called like Design Alley or something. What's that? Daniel (11:52) Yeah. Demo's. Okay. Yeah, demos like or is that playtesting? That's not demos, that's playtesting. Kevin (12:19) Yeah. Yeah, there's demos, there's demo sections from the vendors who may want to show off a game and they'll let you see it and let you play around or two. So there's those demos and then there's demos from a guy that, you know, has come up with the game and he's paid a little fee and he's trying to get people to play it and give them feedback or look for problems. Because if you design a game, you need a lot of people to play it to bang on it. And so that can be fun if you like just trying and seeing what people are doing. I played a cool one at Tantrum Con last year. where you had to get through a neighborhood, but they were, I think you were the mailman maybe, but you had to design a route, but then dogs would come after you and water sprinklers, and it was really kind of cool. And I played it with my oldest son, and we saw that game designer there this year, and Cameron was like, that's that guy that did that game that we really liked. I don't know if he'll ever get it published. just a, it's a concept, but. Daniel (13:05) That's how it's run. How neat. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (13:20) And so you get to see how he's tried to make little tokens for it and things at home. So yeah. Daniel (13:26) That's cool. And how cool that you got to be there with your son too. Yeah. Kevin (13:30) I know, I know. I've raised some geeks. So Daniel, those are the zones for a board game convention. Why would someone want to do that? Daniel (13:34) Yay. Right. Why would someone want to go to a board game convention? Well... Kevin (13:45) And I'll let you go first. know we've got a little order here, but I've inverted it. So why don't you go first with your first comment? Daniel (13:49) Yeah, that's great. No, that's fine. That's fine. Well, one reason that someone might want to go to a board game convention is something you've alluded to already, and that is that it's relatively affordable fun. That it is, I believe, cheaper than most other conventions. Going to Geekway, for example, for four days of board game playing, is a ticket is what like 60 to 70 dollars. So 60 to 70 dollars for four days of anything is amazing. And now of course, you you also have to find a room and board and but that's on your own. So there are all sorts of options with that. But 60 to 70, maybe even 80 dollars for four days of anything. You just can't beat that. Right. And Kevin (14:23) Yeah. No, it's terrific. Daniel (14:48) So yeah, so it's relatively affordable fun. As you said, people are not trying to make a profit there. They're just trying to cover costs of having a big event at a convention center. It's also a way of having affordable fun in that you can try out games without buying them. For example, as you said, like a geek way, there's this board game library where you can check out board games for free, air quotes. Pardon me, it's not free because you paid six years, $70 to be there for four days, but otherwise it's free. And last year, for example, I had always heard, not always, but for many years heard about this game, Ethnos. And what a fun game this was, this board game, Ethnos. But I never got to try it. And they had it there at the library, right? And so we got to try it. And that meant I didn't have to go out and buy a copy to find out if it was fun. Kevin (15:38) There you go. Daniel (15:46) Now since that time, I did buy the second edition because the first edition is no longer in print. And I really love it. But I got to see whether I loved it or not without buying it first. And that saves a lot of money if you don't have to buy something before giving it a try. Yeah. Kevin (15:55) Mm. Yeah. That's right. As well as if you bought it, you might have to arrange to get people to come play it, or you could do the solo or check it out. But if you're at the convention, you got people with you. They're like, sure, let's play it together. And now you've got the game and you've got a group to play it, which is generally one of their obstacles to making it work. Yeah. Daniel (16:21) For sure, for sure. So that's one reason people might want to go. It's a horrible fun. How about you, Kevin? What's another reason someone would want to go to a board game? Yeah. Kevin (16:29) Yeah, and actually, let me piggyback on that. One other way, if you also want to go really cheap to a board game convention, you can volunteer, because generally they'll give you a free ticket if you do some aspect of the convention. So you might check people in, you might help with some kind of vending or clean up, or you teach games. And if you do that, you can actually get a free ticket. You'll have less time to play games, but you will meet people because they are doing a job. Like you'll meet the other staff and volunteers. So if you're going on your own, that's a good option. I'll mention that. But yeah, I think one of the main reasons to go to board game convention is what board gamers want to do is they want to play games. Well, you never have time or you don't have the people. Now you've got the time because you're there with nothing else to do, presumably, unless you're trying to work at the convention, which I guess you could. But otherwise, you are there solely to game and everyone else there is for the same reason. Daniel (17:00) Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great one. That's so nice. That's so nice. Kevin (17:28) So it's so nice, like your main obstacles, including time, which can't be saved, it can only be spent, you've suddenly got the time and location and games to play. And that's why everyone's having a great time. All these eager folks that want to game with you. The world is your oyster if you want to play these board games. So, yeah. Daniel (17:47) Yeah. It forces, it leaves you no choice but to set aside the rest of the world and play games. Yeah. Kevin (17:56) Yeah, you're I love that. That's right Daniel. That's the best way to put it This is the way to set aside the world Set aside those troubles and just play games and people are there for the same reason if they wanted to just play their own games solo They wouldn't go to the convention. They are there to meet friends Make new friends and play board games have great experiences So I just encountered so many great people tantrum calm or like come play this game with us and I might see them at Breakfast at the which I will add Daniel staying in the hotel has that one advantage of you really do see people because you run into them in the elevator or in the you little breakfast area or in the in the restaurant and It's how you you start making connections. So yeah, there's so many people want you to play games with you. It's Daniel (18:28) Yeah. Right, right. Didn't you say? Didn't you say you even like bought a board game in the elevator? Kevin (18:48) That was not me, but a guy told me this story that yes, yes, another dude's like, you won't believe this, but I just bought a game in the elevator. Cause yeah, yeah. Cause he just had a guy that was trying to sell it and it didn't sell with the original plan. And the guy was like, well, I'll buy it. So he then mowed him money in the elevator. So it's crazy. But yeah, you can make, you can enjoy this time. Daniel (18:49) OK, OK, OK. Wow. Kevin (19:13) make new friends and connect with people. And it's just a great way to be there with what we want, which is to play games. And looking around, I didn't see a lot of people on their phones. I mean, there's some for various reasons, but most people, they don't want to go to convention to sit on their phone. They're there to game and they want to play. And it's just so much good energy there. Yeah. And of course, these are friends you may see at the next con. Daniel (19:25) Yeah. I love it, love it, yeah. Yeah. Good. Kevin (19:44) That's a nice bit too. Yeah, and I've made some friends through you with people at Geekway, which is lovely. Daniel (19:52) Yeah, well, you've become a part of That geek way family, yeah. I should say to. Kevin (19:55) Aw, thanks. Yeah. What would you add to that? Daniel (20:02) You know, also I should say we've been talking a lot about Geekway. is something that we both are at. If any of our listeners or viewers on YouTube know that you're going to be at Geekway, please reach out to us. We would love to get to meet you and play some games with you. It'd be great. You can just... Kevin (20:08) Yes. Yes. Yes, Daniel usually wears a very large big bird costume. So if you just see big bird and just pull on a feather, he'll say, woo. That's how you talk. Daniel (20:23) I do. That's right. And you can find Kevin because he's usually at the center of this mass of people who are all trying to but touch the hem of Kevin's glory. But yeah, if you know you're going to be a geek boy, please reach out. We'd love to play games with you. We're going to say it at the end, but you can reach us at playsavestheworldatgmail.com is our email address. Well, no, the only thing I'd add, I mean, it Kevin (20:35) Right. Touch the him. They're trying to stop him from trying to break dance because it's so terrible, but he's still trying. He's still trying. Yeah, we'll both be there. Daniel (20:57) That actually just kind of probably leads into my next point, if that's okay about why board game conventions are amazing, is because... Kevin (21:05) Please. Daniel (21:10) being forced to come in some ways to step out of the world into this alternate reality, if you will, is kind of a... Kevin (21:20) Magic Circle. Daniel (21:24) In some ways, it's kind of a critique of some of the challenges facing society. On the other, at the same time, it's more than just a critique. It's not a negative thing. It's almost kind of a envisioning of the good things that we can be right in the good things that we we that we can do. We talked about this on a previous episode when we were called board game faith, you know, that for a game to work, there has to be this thing called the magic circle, right, which itself has religious, spiritual. roots, that term. But this idea that for a game to work, everyone has to be willing to temporarily step outside of the world and to step into this alternate reality where these new rules apply, the rules of the game. And I think in some ways that just is also true of board game conventions. By the way, are my dogs being too loud? Can you hear them? Kevin (22:22) We'll survive. Daniel (22:23) OK, all right. Kevin (22:23) Yes, I do hear them. Sounds like a bird store. Of macaws. Raptor Center. Daniel (22:29) Okay, yeah, our dogs have to have to make themselves known. But you know, I mean, we spend most of life in a world that says the most important thing is, as we've talked about in previous episodes, to be productive, to show your value by how much you work, by how much you're successful, by how much you achieve. And Kevin (22:43) Yeah. Daniel (22:54) We've talked about the dangers of that for one's soul and spirit, It just, it kind of can eat away at any kind of sense of healthy spirituality. And this is a few days when we can get out of that, right? This is a few days when we can play and we don't have to engage in that larger. really kind of harmful activity of having to prove our worth and our value all the time by how successful or how productive we are. Kevin (23:26) Yeah. And I have a, can I share an anecdote about that? When I was at TantrumCon, you know, you see some people maybe end up playing some games, hanging out, and in the downtime, I asked one guy, so what do you do? And he's like, oh, I'm a family physician. I was like, oh, that's cool. And then I showed him a mole I was worried about. But after that, I'm like, that's awesome. Let's go play this game. And like, I was vaguely curious, but not enough to want to really get into details, because. Daniel (23:30) Yeah, yeah. I love that. Kevin (23:57) You know, we don't want to talk about work. So you might ask, well, what do you do? And someone else, a real estate agent, okay, that's cool. Where you live. Okay, great. That's enough. don't want, you know, I care, but not really because let's play game. Like I really want to get to know you. Like I want to blow up your cars and Thunder Road, Vendetta. So yeah, it, a curie instead of the outside world where we want to know where somebody lives and their zip code and what they do and their achievements. And then they're Daniel (24:05) Right, right. That's so good, that's so good. Kevin (24:26) their hobbies don't really matter, here the hobbies matter and the achievements don't. So yeah, it's so great, so great. Yeah, it is a reversal. Yeah. Daniel (24:32) I don't know that it is a it's a reversal, isn't it? It's part of the great reversal. I love that. And I love that that, yeah, the person's primary identity is no longer what they do. Right. That air quotes the person's primary identity is I'm a game player. You know, just I just it's a. Kevin (24:43) Right. Daniel (24:52) Maybe? Yeah, yeah, I love that. Kevin (24:53) Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it is. mean, that's the one defining. We mentioned this before, the one rule to board gaming is you want to play the game like that's that's the only requirement. And you're a human being that can, you know, exist in our rational mind sphere like an Martian might be living in the past or have, you know, they can't play games because they don't live in chronological time or something. And that's not going to work. And Lord knows I've tried. Yeah. Daniel (25:04) Right. Yeah. Right, right. No, that's always the problem with Martians. It's why you should never schedule a lunch with a Martian because they... Kevin (25:22) But you can't play a game with AI because all you do is just don't give it any prompts and then it can't play Because you know every time you ask it a question it comes alive and then it goes to sleep. You just don't prompt it Anyway, but yeah Daniel (25:30) You Well, that's another reason. So that's another reason. You step out of one set of rules and enter into another set of rules that in some ways are much more life-affirming. Kevin (25:48) Yeah, it's like the magic rectangle of the exhibit space. Yeah, that's right. right. And yet, yeah, well, you know, this is where, yeah, we're talking about hobbies and hobbies seem superfluous to much of the world. But the truth is, most of the things people care about are superfluous, like hitting a little ball with the metal stick down a greenway, and we call that golf, and... Daniel (25:52) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Kevin, what's another reason the board games are conventions are awesome? Kevin (26:16) To people that love golf, it's mesmerizing. To everyone else, it's boring. To someone who loves bowling, bowling's great. And they go looking at different bowling balls, I guess, and different stuff, and leagues, and no one else cares. So all these things that are superfluous, we get to celebrate them. And at board game convention, we get to celebrate the fact that we like dice, and cardboard, and imagination space, and winning. It's something that really doesn't matter. Nobody cares that you won this game. except the people at the table. But you you call Elon Musk, hey, I won this game. And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. He doesn't care. And what I love about the board game conventions is that there is this lovely shared energy of people wanting to have fun together in this superfluous, unneeded event. And so it's almost like a casino, if you've ever been in a casino where you've got this roar of energy, there's this Daniel (27:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:15) vibe going on, except the casino it's loud, it's annoying, and people are ultimately losing their money. And at this, no one's really losing money after they pay for their ticket. So it's, yeah, it's great. It's great. Daniel (27:30) It almost sounds something kind of like church-like or worship-like in a way. I mean, just that all these people in some ways who are strangers to each other gather in this space to engage in this apparently superfluous activity in the eyes of the world. But we do it because we all find value in this thing we're doing. It's almost kind of... But then we leave. Yeah, yeah. cool, cool. Kevin (27:49) Yeah. But then we leave, right? Because you can't stay there, you know, get out, go. So, yeah. Daniel (28:00) I like it, thanks. Well... Anything else on that, Kevin, before going on to our next reason why board games are pretty awesome? So this, my next reason why board game conventions are awesome is, relates to a moment I had, I know it the last Geekway, and I think before that as well. We were there, we had just arrived, we had just sat down, a group of friends, to play our very first game, and we started playing the first game. Kevin (28:11) I want to hear what you're thinking, Daniel. What's the next reason? Daniel (28:37) and all of a sudden it hit me. that around this table and in this room filled with all these people, it was no longer weird to play board games. Like it was, like we were, my friend says, you know, I was among my peeps, right? But it, most of the time, you kind of have to apologize for being a board game player. I mean, not apologize, like it's a bad thing, but. Kevin (28:54) We were running the world. Haha. Daniel (29:11) kind of in the classic sense of like trying to kind of defend it a little bit or to kind of, you know, make excuses for it, right? To say, oh, like, I know it's not like Monopoly. Oh, it's like this. It's like this. And oh, I know it's so silly. Isn't it? Ha ha ha ha. But I like board games. I didn't have to do that at all. Right. Because like everyone got it. Everyone got it in this room that board games are awesome. Yeah. Kevin (29:17) Right. now. Everyone's been touched by the bug. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (29:40) And it was so neat not to feel like the awkward kid out on the playground anymore. So that's a cool feeling, right? You're kind of among your peeps. It's just magical, right? just feels, I tell folks, it feels like it's like second to Christmas for me in terms of how magical it feels. It's just neat. Kevin (29:48) Yeah, yeah. That's so great. Right, right. Awwww Actually it's kinda better than Christmas. It's okay. little bit. Yeah, I think. Daniel (30:10) Really, Yeah. The food's probably better at Christmas. Kevin (30:18) Who's probably better? And the music. Daniel (30:21) true. We need come up with board game convention carols. Yeah, that's true. We need go with a board game convention carol. Kevin (30:22) But there's less calories at board game conventions, I think. What's that? Yeah. That'd be fun. That would be awesome. Yeah, and the truth is board gamers tend to be lovely people. I mean you're gonna get some odd characters and personalities that's like anywhere, but many of them I found are just genuinely kind and helpful and I would see laptops charging with no one watching them. Like in general people weren't there to, people weren't taking things. Like it was a very trusting environment and in fact I lost a piece of one of my games that I taught at TantrumCon. didn't realize it, but the friendly volunteers had emailed me because someone had turned it in and they realized it was a John Company piece. So I taught the game and somehow it got knocked off the table and someone cared enough. They're like, this is important, right? And so they brought it into the table and they tracked me down and emailed me. So people are like turning in lost items. It's like what they say about Japan, right? Daniel (31:22) how nice. Kevin (31:26) you lose your cell phone and it's at the police station and your wallet has all your money in it because they are like, why would you steal something? And the board gamers are a bit that way too, that they are just lovely, friendly people and they are all so excited. Like they love the convention. And so the energy, my wife Jenny peeked in briefly as she was in the neighborhood and she said, I didn't realize it'd be so much fun. Like she didn't actually play, she just walked through, but she just saw there was so much joy. Daniel (31:39) Yeah. Kevin (31:55) And she resonated with that emotion. She's like, these people are having a blast. I'm like, yeah, it's been like that for four days. We're just, it's like a party. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. So they tend to be welcoming, fun and warm people. And again, they might have an eccentric type or two and you just find a way to steer clear. So you don't have to, you you just watch out. There's some folks that are, there was one guy that had set up his game and I got to play it, which was cool, but he was very clear that was his game and he kind of. Daniel (32:02) Right, It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (32:24) told everybody what to do with the table. But even that, like I got to play a game I didn't want to play. I got to play a game I wanted to play that I had not played and it was fine. It was fine. So yeah, he couldn't help it. He couldn't help it. So sometimes you get that experience, but there's many, many things that are worse than that. And most of the people were just really lovely and warm and funny. And I could ask anybody wearing a badge, like, what'd you play today? Daniel (32:26) Okay, okay. So I mean, even, yeah, so I mean, Right, right, right. So yeah, so it sounds like, kind of the, right, right, right, yeah. Kevin (32:54) was the ultimate line, know, what'd you play today or what are you excited about today? And they're like, I got to play this and this or I'm gonna, and they're just so excited. They wanna talk about it. They wanna talk about the stuff they're doing. Yeah, that's good. What, what's that? Daniel (32:54) Mm-mm. Oh, that's... That makes me want to go to a board game convention. Right now. That makes me want to go to a board game convention right now! Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (33:10) may as a coming. Daniel, what is the last reason you that our faithful listeners might consider a board game convention? Daniel (33:19) Well, I mean, actually, it just dovetails with what you just talking about, that everyone there is a lovely person. And what is... What is also remarkable about that is that if my last reason to go to board young people is that you're among your peeps, another good reason to go is that in a way you're not among your peeps. And you can discover that even when you're not among your peeps, they're still lovely people, right? And that's really cool because I think there's this stereotype and not entirely unfounded. Kevin (33:52) Right. Daniel (34:01) you know, that you go to boarding conventions and it's all middle-aged white guys. But, geek way, probably, I'm assuming it's true for others, but I've only been to geek way, I mean, that has, that stereotype has become less and less true over the years that I've been going. And it's more and more, more and more diversity, more and more, in terms of gender and racial ethnic background and straight and LGBTQ and singles and married and ages. are people who have been retired for a long time and there are kids there. And you see this just wonderful diversity of people in the great rainbow of the human family. And you realize that in some ways we're also different. And in some way, that we're all so lovely and they're all lovely people. Just like you said, they're all, everyone's supportive and loving and caring for each other. And it's, it's, it's a reminder of the value of, Kevin (34:59) Love it. So good. Daniel (35:14) of the beauty of this motley crew that we call the human family, in all of our differences. Kevin (35:20) Yeah, I you're so, so true. You're, you're at the convention. there's a 12 year old kid. They like board games. There's a 75 year old woman, you know, with her son. They like board games. Like all these people are united in a common cause and you can just look at them and enjoy it. And yeah, I was struck. Daniel (35:25) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (35:39) I thought at Tantrum Con I saw a lot more women than I have in the past. Like it just seemed like there was a strong contention of women. And so as you're saying, I think it is diversifying beyond what it was 10 years ago, which is great. It's just great. Yeah. Daniel (35:43) Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Yeah, think I heard it, I think, I'm hoping I'm making this up or misremembering this. I think I heard it the last Geek Way that it's pretty much, there is many folks now who are women or identify as women as men, which was pretty amazing. Kevin (36:12) Yeah, that is, that is. Well, let's give them a few tips for a fun board game convention if you haven't ever been. And if you have and you have others, let us know on YouTube in the comments or email us for the podcast, audio podcast, and we'll be interested in it. Read your tips. But these are a few of things that I thought of Daniel and you may have some you want to share. But my experience, you know, there's a choice of either going with friends and you're going to stick with that. Daniel (36:19) Yes. Kevin (36:39) kind of little group, that little clan of buddies there that are going to game much of the time, or you're going to go solo. And if you go solo, you're going to have to figure out, you going to crash tables or set up a game and try to find players? But you're going to have to find a way to interact with people. you either, I'm not going say crash, I mean, metaphorically, but just be willing to go up, as we said earlier, and say, hey, can I join in? And just try that. Also sign up for a teaching session. generally, conventions will have people that will teach games, you want to sign up real early because people tend to fill them up. And that's the way to meet folks is to go to a teach session, hanging out there and then say, hey, anyone want to get some get something to eat after this? So put yourself out there. But that's how you make those lifelong friends is making that first initial reach out and going by yourself means you probably will meet new people. If you go with the group, then you're probably going to stay in your group. that either one is fine. Just be aware of the There are some pluses and minuses to both. Number two was bring a water bottle or else stand at the water fountain for a while or buy expensive Coca-Cola's. There's a lot of buying, selling and trading at conventions which I didn't realize at first so people are... there's usually a flea market so it's fun to walk through and get a deal on a game and you may want to have some games that you want to offer for sale there if you can transport them just to thin out your collection for things you don't want anymore. Daniel (37:45) Good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (38:10) But people also do virtual flea market. And that's where that guy on the elevator was kind of running into a deal that didn't, that did not work out. But you meet someone at the exhibit hall A and they're gonna, you're gonna hand them a game. So you've arranged it prior. So if you've got games you wanna get rid of or things you wanna buy, check that out. And that's a great way to get something new or different. So I picked up Amun-Rey and I picked up... Daniel (38:16) okay. Kevin (38:40) castles of Burgundy both that way. Got a deal on them, which is cool. They were older older editions, but that's fine. That's fine. Daniel (38:43) Nice, nice, nice. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Kevin (38:50) Yeah, any thoughts you have, Daniel, for tips from your experience? Daniel (38:55) I like those. No, those are all great. I appreciate those. I'm trying to think. I feel like... One other one other tip might just be You know to kind of be gentle on yourself too and not to not to push yourself too much or just to kind of listen how you're feeling and What's going on internally? I know I get to a board game convention I go to get to geek away and I think you know, this is my chance to play games forever and that's right and so I and and and so there inevitably be a point there were Kevin (39:29) never happen again. Daniel (39:35) At least for me, I'll think, okay, I'm really, really sleepy. Either I can go to bed and get some sleep or I can keep playing games and just be aware of those moments. I'm getting to the point of life where when I feel sleepy, I pretty much like to get some sleep. And that's okay, right? Because there'll be more games to come in the morning. Anyway, it's meant to be fun. Right, so if you feel like you're pushing yourself, don't do it. Yeah. Kevin (40:05) Right, don't ever do it. I think that's really wise. Yeah, the pack's unplugged. It's such a big exhibit hall. It's a lot of walking, so it was very tiring. A lot of steps. Yeah, please. No, no. Daniel (40:13) Yeah. I got another, I have another tip too. Sorry to interrupt you. If there's a game that you know you're going to play there, and if you feel you have the time, it is often helpful to try to learn the rules before you get there. Especially depending on how you learn rules. You know, I'm one that to learn rules, really kind of have to, best, I really have to read them for myself. And so if you have, if you're wired like that, and you know what games are going to play, it may help you to try to read through rules. And you can find almost all the rules online now to any game before you get there. Kevin (40:50) That's That's right. And YouTube, of course, is a great way to learn games as well. But yeah, they have the library listed online. You can go look up that library and look for the games you want and be prepared. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And if you are going to the game convention solo, I would recommend staying in the convention hotel if you can. If you're wanting to meet people, if you're more of an introvert, then sure, stay off site by all means. Daniel (40:55) Yeah. That's a good idea. Kevin (41:20) If you're on your own and wanting to connect, the hotel is just a great place where you're gonna, you're more likely to run into people and it is real convenient to just schlep out of, you know, go down the whole, go down the floors and play the games and then if you wanna go take a nap, you can flip up, go up there and come back. So that can be nice, but it is gonna be pricey. That's just part of it. That's how they make their money. Daniel (41:41) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good idea. I like it. Good tips. Kevin (41:45) Anyway, yes, all right. Well, Daniel, next episode. Daniel (41:50) Next episode is a book discussion. We're going to be discussing Wonderland by Steven Johnson with the subtitle, How Play Made the Modern World. Wonderland, How Play Made the Modern World. Kevin (41:59) Wonderland! Wonderland Love it. Love it. more time, Daniel. Daniel (42:14) Wonderland, how play made the modern world, the wandering world by Steven Johnson. Kevin (42:18) The Wonder World. The Wonder World was made by Playland. When you do that, it looked like the book was talking because you're holding it up. That was awesome. Daniel (42:28) It's a really fascinating book and it's about what the subtitle says about how things that we are so quick today to dismiss as unimportant and playful and silly and superfluous in some ways shaped who we are as a world today. Well. Kevin (42:50) Can't wait, can't wait. And where can they find us, Daniel? Daniel (42:55) Yes, so if you would like to reach out to us, we'd love to hear from you. know, Kevin and I do theology of play workshops. We do that for churches and church organizations, and we can do it for other organizations as well. If that sounds like it's interesting to you, we'd love to hear from you on that. We'd love to hear just from you just saying hi and how's your life going. And we would love to hear from you if you think you might be a geek way and you'd like to play some games You can reach us at play saves the world at gmail.com. That's all one word play saves the world at gmail.com and you can also find us on the the interwebs at play saves the world dot o RG and We're on Facebook as well. mean not Facebook. Yes, we are Facebook, but not much Instagram more Instagram Kevin (43:47) That's right. Yep. Daniel (43:52) IG as the kids say. Yeah. Kevin (43:54) find us there and I'll be at Tantrum Con in January which is in Charlotte, North Carolina, the queen city of North Carolina. yeah, if you happen to be there, let me know. Daniel, see you in a few weeks. Bye my friend, bye everyone. Daniel (44:02) guys. Nice, nice. Alright, thanks a lot Kevin. Thanks for listening everybody.