Daniel (00:00) Play Saves the World, Episode 4. To play is human. Hello and welcome everybody. It's so good to have you here to Play Saves the World, a bi -weekly conversation on the meaning of play for human flourishing. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:41) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:43) And we are so grateful and glad to have you listening today to the podcast or watching on YouTube. Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Kevin, feels like it's been too long, man. It's been too long. How are Kevin (01:00) Good, I'm good. It's been a few weeks. Yeah. I got COVID like a lot of people in this little summer surge, but thankfully it's more of a, it's more of a nuisance than anything right now. So I'm glad for Daniel (01:02) Yeah, yeah, we've had just stinks. Yeah. Yeah. You say you are, you are mostly recovered. You were saying beforehand. Good. Good. Good. I didn't ask, did the rest of your household catch COVID as well? Really? Just you? Okay. Kevin (01:20) Yeah, I think I'm pretty recovered. No one got it. No one got it. Such a weird disease. And some people I know that have never had it finally got it this summer. It really feels like it takes attendance. It's like, you know, I'll get you next year. It's like, I'm here right now. No, I'm not going to do you. I just, it's like it lines up dominoes. Such a weird disease. Cause the flu like or something typically it's, you know, everyone gets it roughly. Daniel (01:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a good point. It is, is, and it just skips over. Yeah, Kevin (01:55) If it gets in somewhere, not everyone, but a lot. If a household tends to spread it, then maybe we're better at managing COVID. I don't know. You know, COVID is airborne, which is bad, but it's not through surfaces. So maybe that's part of it. For versus, yeah, the flu, like it's doorknobs and things that you touch, I think. Daniel (02:03) Maybe, maybe so much thought. okay. Okay. Yeah, that might Right, right, right. And we're all getting pretty good if we have COVID of wearing masks and we're out around other people or things like that. So maybe that helps control the spread a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (02:25) Yeah, I know what to do. And it's so nice that you can go outside. And so we ate outside sometimes and I was just kind of sagging in the chair between the heat and the COVID, but at least I wasn't exactly. was the prequented prequel to Weekend at Bernie's. Daniel (02:35) propping Kevin up in the chair, eating the outside on the deck. that sounds so sad. I'm so sorry, but I'm glad that you're feeling better. Kevin (02:45) But I mean, the nice bit is I could just be outside with the, you you weren't completely sequestered or it was nice to get out of the bed for a little bit, but yeah, it's fine. It's fine. What can you Daniel (02:50) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. half of my household had never had COVID until like the last month and a half and finally caught up with them too. Yeah, you're right. just, it does seem to, like you said, it takes attendance. Yeah. Kevin (03:15) you Daniel (03:18) Well good, I'm glad you're feeling better. Kevin (03:20) Yeah, thank you. And you got back from a conference. I want to hear all about this. It was a Beach Boys conference? Daniel (03:26) Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Well, there was a Beach Boys surprise appearance, which I'll get to. Yes. mean, not literally the Beach Boys, but their name was invoked in unexpected ways. But yeah, just last week had the joy of getting to be involved with the pause play. conference. It's sponsored by the Paws Play Center for Clergy Renewal out of Kansas City. And in the past, when this podcast was still called Board Game Faith, we welcomed Reverend Dr. Casey Sigman, who is kind of the founder of this Paws Play Center for Clergy Renewal. And the idea is really, you What she's trying to address is she sees so much clergy burnout and that's which is a real thing. And she had this great idea, this great insight that in her mind, it's really the solution to that really is not teaching more skills. You know, it's not a, it's not a technical thing. It's not about like, we just need to pastors just needed to learn these, these five tricks for doing their job better. That it's yeah, that it's Kevin (04:39) Right, my gosh. Daniel (04:43) I have a retired clergy friend who I've quoted often over the years. He once said, once said, please save us with another motto. That's right. That's right. But she's, that's right. It worked for John Wesley. He wasn't terribly happy in a lot of, in some ways, in some ways not. But. Kevin (04:54) Hahaha A life hack. Wake up at 4am and you will be happier. What? Okay. Exactly. Daniel (05:09) She says, you know, she had this insight that really the idea is something completely separate from learning skills or technical abilities. It's just, it's the renewal of the soul that comes in her mind through play. And so it's this wonderful center. Any pastors out there listening, it's a great thing to check out. But she was kind enough to invite Play Saves the World to do a workshop there. And since I live much closer to Kansas City than Kevin. I lucked out and I got to go and represent us. And it was really fun. Dr. Marsha McPhee was the keynote speaker. Really a great voice about bringing playfulness into our lives in so many ways. And I just met some amazing people, some wonderful people. Kevin (05:43) Yay. Daniel (06:01) from all around the country. And I think it's going to happen again next year. I think she said she'd like to have PlaySaves the World back again next year. so, yeah, so if that's something you're interested in and you're a pastor clergy type person, please look for that. one of the most bewildering part of the conference, Kevin, was this. One morning over breakfast, picture it, picture it, come with me if you will, to downtown Kansas City. We're having breakfast on the top of this hotel. It's a very funky hotel, by the way. It was an old Pabst brewery factory and they've, they've converted it to this. What's that? P, P, P, that's right. And they converted it to this hotel downtown and there's a, a, Kevin (06:41) PBR. PBR Paps Blue Daniel (06:52) a hangout area on the roof. And so we're having breakfast on the roof, looking out over downtown Kansas City. I'm having breakfast with some wonderful people, including a United Methodist clergy person, a gentleman from Florida, a young clergy man from Florida. And and I told him I've never been to Florida. Well, I've been to Florida once a long time ago. said, but I'm very unfamiliar with Florida. What's what's Florida like? for those of us who are not from Florida. And you know how people in Michigan do the hand? Like they hold up the hand to say where they are on Michigan. Like I'm in the middle of the glove or I'm on the thumb or whatever. No, you don't, that's okay. Because Michigan kind of looks like Kevin (07:35) I only recognize the original 13 colonies, Daniel. So I don't, so yeah. Anything past Tennessee is just an abyss. Yeah. If it's good enough for the founders, it's good enough for me. Daniel (07:38) I appreciate your fidelity to. Yeah, no, I appreciate your fidelity to the original vision of the forefathers. Kevin (07:58) No, but seriously, I did know that trick, but it may be because of my East Coast, U .S. Right. Daniel (08:01) Yeah, yeah, I guess, maybe it's a Midwestern thing. It probably is a Midwestern thing. But we meet a lot of folks from Michigan here in the Midwest and they often hold up their hand to say what part of the state they're from. They say, I'm from the middle or that I'm from the top of the fingers or whatever. If they're on the lower peninsula, the upper peninsula, it takes a second hand to do the upper peninsula. Anyway. Kevin (08:23) I don't think these things are real. This isn't real, is it? Your location isn't real. Just bobbing hands. Daniel (08:28) It's not real. making it all up. I'm not. I'm not. No, no. We're just. although it's a setup to say he described where he was from using his his forearm. He just like put his forearm down and uses it as Florida. And the the part before the elbow is the panhandle. And then you go down and he kind of bent the forearm and his hand to describe where Florida was. And so he was going down Florida on his arm saying where he's from. Kevin (08:40) Okay. So Okay? Okay. Daniel (08:56) And then he gets down to the very, bottom, right? of Florida where the keys are the Florida keys. And I said, yeah, that's where Kokomo And he says, no, no, no, no, no, that's in Indiana. And I said, and then like the arrogant, like the arrogant man I am, said, no, I'm pretty sure Kokomo is in the keys. Like that's right. Listen, I know you've lived in your home stage your whole life, but I think I know it better because I've listened to a Beach Boys song. Kevin (09:20) I'm pretty sure I know your state better than you do, son. that is golden. I've never done anything like that. How could you, Daniel? How could you? Daniel (09:32) Cut! But so let me get into this conversation, which of course was terribly arrogant of me. And I apologized very quickly after that. But we got into this conversation. I looked it up. You know the Kokomo song, you know, and the Beach Boys. And it begins with the line, off the Florida Keys, there's a place called Kokomo. Right. And I apologize to all of our listeners for singing. so all of my life. Kevin (09:44) Right, Daniel (10:04) I have grown up knowing that off the Florida Keys, there is a place called Kokomo. Kevin, Kevin, the Beach Boys have lied to us. There's no place called Kokomo off the Florida Keys. It's about a mythic imaginary place. It's like Narnia. It's imaginary. It's like a mythic imaginary place. It's like Narnia. It's not there. Kevin (10:18) whole song is fiction? It's like Narnia? A mythic what? So he was right that it's not in Indiana or there is one in Indiana But it's not the one they're singing about. Okay, so you were kind of right Daniel (10:33) There is one in Indiana. There's not one off the Florida Keys. No, yeah. Well, I was trusting the Beach Boys. And he was a native of Florida. Kevin (10:44) They're from the beach, Daniel. They're not exactly, I mean, yeah, they're not geography majors. Daniel (10:50) So I mean, anyway, I grew up that song. So for any listeners out there who might've thought that as well, all of our listeners are probably much, more informed and smarter than I am and already knew this. But so that was one of my great revelations of the conference among many other more meaningful ones from the speakers. But yes, Kokomo, despite what they say in the Beach Boys song is not off the floor to keys. Kevin (11:15) Well, listeners and viewers, if you are from a place that also uses hand or arm gestures to locate your geographical location, let us know. Yeah, let us know in the comments or email us at playsavestheworld .gmail Daniel (11:27) Yeah, yeah. We would like to know that. Kevin (11:36) We'd like to know if, especially in other country, like wouldn't it be interesting if it's only Midwest US and Northern Germany, but no one else does it. Everyone else finds that strange, but there are certain pockets of places where everyone decided, you know what, I'm just gonna use my arms and hands to, you're not even drawing a map, you're just making a map. It's like a mime, really. You're miming a Daniel (11:45) Hmm no one else That's right. That's Right. Like there's some country out there that looks like an ear. It's like shaped like an ear. And you say, I come from the lobe or something like that. We want to know. Kevin (12:10) So in second grade, they teach you how to turn your head but point at the location. And it's part of the second grade end of grade exam, EOG exam. Daniel (12:21) That's right. That would be great. That would be great. And there could be a sense of fellowship and kinship among the lobe residents. Yeah. Lobers unite. Lobe. Lobe forever. Kevin (12:30) I'm Yeah, and all the little boys get in trouble. They just jam their finger in their ear, and then they're like it's in here, and then they pull their finger out and show Daniel (12:43) That's right. And then if you pierce your ear on your lobe, it's considered like a great act of, of just, of just injustice toward the lobers. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah. This is all fictional. Like Kokomo. Anyway, anyway, that was the conference. Thank you for listening. So. Kevin (12:53) Right, yes, yes, yes. So weird. Like Kokomo. That is so cool that people are having conferences about play. what a great idea that instead of giving burned out pastors, I mean you could just give them some time off which would be great, or you could give them some life hacks which are less great or a motto, but instead you're giving them experiences that restore them which include play. That play does give you a sense of, or gives you Gives you a recharge. Yeah, it's awesome. Daniel (13:32) Yeah. Yeah. And in all seriousness, the keynote speaker, Marsha McPhee was just genius at that. really, she just had just such great insights for incorporating play and playfulness into life in meaningful ways. I'm sure the other workshop leaders did as well. I just, didn't get a chance to hear them because I was doing our workshop, but so, Kevin, thanks. So thanks to, if anybody's listening from the pause play retreat, thank you so much for that invitation, for organizing Kevin (13:41) Hmm. Yay. Daniel (14:01) Dr. Casey Sigman and Amy and so many others, Josh and Marcia. And Kevin, thanks to you also. mean, as I was giving the workshops there, it occurred to me how much of that was the result of just these conversations that we've been having the last couple of years. And I said at both workshops that, know, at least half or more of the things I said were things that came from you and just... It's just been a nice collaborative. So thanks for being part of this conversation. It's been, it's been great. Kevin (14:32) trademarked yeah yeah no that's that's great that makes brings me makes me very happy so Daniel this is episode 4 of play save the world yes and we are building sort of some foundational ideas about play and what it is and what it means Daniel (14:40) Yes. Episode four. Play saves the world. Yes. Where, that's right. where have we, where have we been so far on this journey, Kevin? Kevin (14:59) Recap, recap, recap, recap, recap, recap, recap, recap. I have a reverb machine, but it doesn't do a good job. So I just do my own because I like my version. better. You like it. So episode one, we interestingly had to say what work is to help us understand what play is. So work is maybe in some ways more defining for people these days, or maybe it's always been that way unless you're the landed gentry or something. Daniel (15:09) I like it. Kevin (15:27) Getting at what work is helps us understand place. Episode 1, what is work? Work is always something that serves a different purpose. So it has a different end. It might be getting a paycheck or it might be creating a product of some sort. You're making furniture. So it's serving an ulterior goal. And that helps us understand what play is, which play has no outside goal. It simply is. It's self -defining. End unto itself. It is its own goal. And in episode two, we said, so now what is play? And we got a little more specific in terms of being an end unto itself. Play is voluntary. We choose to participate. It involves unnecessary obstacles. Daniel (15:58) It is an end unto itself. Kevin (16:18) It wouldn't be very fun just to walk, right? That's not play. What would make it play is if you have to hold one leg behind your back. It's like a one -legged race or you have to hopscotch or that you might time and see if you could beat your time or beat someone else or you have to run through mud. All of a sudden that makes it play because there's some kind of obstacle to it. Be it time or mud or just being silly. You're in a, you're in a, Gunny sack? What did we used to... What were... burlap sack? Yeah. The gunny sack. Yeah, something like that. You're having to hop or you've been tied to someone else, a three -legged race. Potato sack. Yes, yes. Potato sack rake. My grandfather had a potato sack rake. It was much loved. Daniel (16:51) Gunny sack a burlap sack a gunny sack that sounds right. I forget the A potato sack rake. Ra -rake? Race. A potato sack race. It really was an effective made of Kevin (17:13) It was more effective with for snakes. Well, it went in the sack. The sack had a hook for the potato. Daniel (17:15) Okay, that makes sense. Kevin (17:21) sack rake. It had a hook so you could hang it on the potato sack. Yeah, yeah, and it was really useful. Instruments of old, yes. There's a Thresher's reunion out here and it's basically old tractors and things and people get together for a week and geek out on old farm instruments. I've never been but yeah, it's a Thresher's reunion. Yeah, so... Daniel (17:23) Okay, okay. That makes sense. makes sense. Hmm. Instruments of old. Yeah. Yeah. that's cool. That's neat. I like that. Kevin (17:47) That's play episode two was play and at what is play episode three. We looked at we are wired for play how play is a basic part of our human and Excuse me animal Wiring we might say or background Daniel (18:04) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's always been that way, right? Because it's innate to us. It's not this thing that so often today we think of play as something that's just for kids and not really worth the time for adults. historically, universally, that's not been the case. An interesting, yeah, yeah, yeah, the animals. Kevin (18:11) Ahem. Yeah, and it's so cool that it's true of other mammals that, you know, we play with our pets, but even the octopus and other creatures, the children play, but you can engage with play. see them, we see them playing, dolphins are playing, so play is part of at least mammalian life. I'm not sure about arthropods and other stuff, but maybe mollusks. Daniel (18:44) Yeah, nail play would be an interesting topic to look at. Kevin (18:53) I'll play They there's there's a snail volleyball games been going on for 300 years currently the score is 4 -2 That's Daniel (19:08) That would be, I would love that. I it takes so long just for the snails to crawl up the net and then to try to, you know, to get a position to spike it, which is really hard. Yeah. Yeah. And then the net's all slimy with all of the snail trails and that, and then they have to come out and clean it. And it's, it's, that just adds a lot of time right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, is that in the Olympics? Kevin (19:30) Right. Right. Daniel (19:37) We missed, I mean, is there snail volleyball in the Olympics? Kevin (19:39) Simone Viles is representing America in the Snail Volleyball Competition. Yes, she's really good. She's, yeah. Thanks Simone, we love Daniel (19:44) Okay, okay, great, great, great, So play. gets at our deepest human identity. Kevin (19:56) Yeah, that's what we want to talk about today, is that play is really a defining element of our humanity. And again, other mammals too, so I don't want to be human exclusive here, but that's the only one I really know because I don't have access to snail consciousness. So we'll just stick with humans. But yeah, another episode. Daniel (19:58) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, But for another episode, yeah, yeah. And I think another way of maybe getting of this is that there's this central. seeming juxtaposition or paradox at, at kind of at the, at the heart of play, which is that it is by definition, it involves unnecessary things, unnecessary obstacles. As you said, we're referring back to Bernard Suits, a Canadian philosopher, and yet it is essential for human life. Right? So how, how is it that something that is by definition so unnecessary, also so necessary for human life, right? That's kind of another way of maybe trying to approach the topic today. Why is it the necessary unnecessary of life? Kevin (21:13) Yeah, and there's different ways to answer that. And one is simply that it's our wiring and that's human flourishing. Or we could put it as a religious answer and say it's the way we were created. That plays endemic to the created world. Daniel (21:25) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Kevin (21:34) And so we fulfill our deepest human identity by engaging in play. work can be fulfilling as well, and work is necessary, and eating and sleeping. mean, you can't play 24 hours a day, but something happens in play that is a core identity for us. And we're neglecting it when we don't recognize that reality. Daniel (21:56) Yeah. Kevin (22:02) So you have commented that play is the necessary unnecessary. Daniel (22:07) Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that it is. this part of the human experience that the world in some ways looks at and says, well, that's a waste of time. It is not a means to an end and the ends are the things we care about. And yet with out it, life seems empty and hollow and burdensome and intolerable in many ways. We talked about last episode, which makes him play a human right. And so, yeah, so it's this strange, it's a strange creature of, is by definition unnecessary, from a larger extent, deeply necessary, this role to play. And as you said, mean, so maybe that's because we're made that way, right? Or we're wired that way or we're created that Why would that be? Why would we be created or wired to feel that this unnecessary thing is Kevin (23:23) Yeah, and that if we put it in a non -religious context, I think there is no answer. It just simply is, right? It would be. Or you could put it as a Buddhist answer, like we just accept the reality that we have, which is an authentic answer. So there's nothing wrong with that. If we put it in a religious, a more monotheistic religious setting, it's because Daniel (23:44) Yeah, Kevin (23:53) reflects the values of God, I think, ultimately. That God is a... God is, in some sense, playful. Daniel (23:55) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. Like, yes. Like how? I totally agree. Yeah, so how does playfulness and reflect kind of the image of God? Kevin (24:12) Right, and that's kind of saying, well, the world has an inherent element of play, and if God made the world that way, then it reflects some truth about God, presumably. Just like morality is kind of embedded in the world to some degree, C .S. Lewis's great point that everyone everywhere automatically understands the idea of getting in line. We naturally form lines because it's just obvious that Daniel (24:30) Right, right. Kevin (24:41) First come is first served type thing. You should you should wait your turn now, obviously there are line cutters But everyone gets mad at them because we have a baseline sense of morality and you know, everyone agrees what you shouldn't harm children unless you're You know, there's something wrong with you. It's like like the exception proves the rule that People care about children people protect the innocent people understand justice. So Daniel (24:43) Hmm, that's interesting. Kevin (25:09) reflects some of the values of God as well, that God created morality within us and also God created playfulness within us. Daniel (25:12) Yeah. yeah. So what are the gifts of playfulness then? What are the things that make it necessary? I think one of the things you and I have been talking about is, in previous episodes and offline too, and in our notes, this idea of play really helps us to focus on the gift of being overdoing, right? That it's about... Maybe it could be said that play helps us to be more present to the realities in front of us. Kevin (25:52) Hmm. Daniel (25:54) author we have talked often about in the past related to this is that I seem to mention every episode, but Oliver Berkman, but this idea that a focus on the future, on future goals as we seem to be, I don't know, maybe not wired to do, but at least taught to do in our corner of the world, that perpetual focus on future goals robs us of the present. And so it's kind of hard in the modern mindset to allow ourselves to focus on what is right in front of us. And yet that is so essential, right? Because all sorts of religious traditions and modern psychology too, you know, talks If you want to have a happy and fulfilled life, means being present to the things right in front of us and not always being lost in our worries about the future or regrets about the past and plays. Yeah, yeah, Mm hmm. Kevin (26:53) Anxiety is always based in the future. It's a future fear. Right. So the one way of dealing with anxiety is focusing on the present. Daniel (27:07) Yeah, yeah. And play is awesome at doing that, right? It giving us the ability to do that. That's something we do in our workshops. And I did in the workshop at this conference was, you know, we play a big group game of just one, that great kind of fun cooperative word game. And then afterwards, we just kind of reflect together about, you Kevin (27:11) Yeah. Daniel (27:36) None of us were worried about the future as we were playing this game. None of us were regretting, you know, a past mistake from five years ago during this game. You know, we were all just, we were all just focused on this thing in front of us and the people in front of us for the moment. And what a gift that is that play gives us to do Kevin (27:52) Yeah. It's making me think that one way of focusing on the present would be a meditation. So that approach of... Allowing your mind to wonder without fixating on anything and trying to just keep it grounded in a present Self -awareness that doesn't grasp. mean meditation is there's different techniques and different Ways to define it but something like that. You could be simply just focusing on the present but another form of focusing on the present would be something like chanting the Psalms that monks do prayer beads or and I never thought of it as a type of game mechanic, but it kind of is in the sense that it is a thing you're doing, but it really just has a focus on the Daniel (28:40) Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:49) that that makes sense or singing a hymn or something but you're you're doing something that is finite that it doesn't really have a purpose the the mandala that some buddhist monks make they're making these almost sandcastle art things that they will destroy or or work corporate worship is something that has importance right now but like a game it ends you know so when you're playing a game you know that at some point it ends and you go back to real life and that's fine like you Daniel (29:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (29:18) You'll die if you only play games because you have to eat and sleep and take care of your surroundings and everything. And worship's similar. You can't just sit and worship all the time. You will have to leave. Daniel (29:34) Yeah, yeah. I've never thought about those are both, those are all great examples, including the mandala. I never thought about that, but the fact that they destroyed afterwards, I never really thought about it, the implications of that. But that's all about grounding yourself only in the present, right? Because if you, if you preserve it, if you say, well, look at this beautiful work, then all of sudden it's about the future. It's about your legacy. It's about your impressing other people. Kevin (29:52) Yeah. Right. I'm going to sell these. Yeah. Daniel (30:02) And that's not the point of it. It's about, yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I love Kevin (30:09) Yeah, it's a way of well thinking of how you're talking about focusing on the present and are there other ways sure there are but but another way is having sort of an immediate goal that is sort of superfluous and you can do that meditation there's styles of meditation where you're walking or looking at a candle or listening to the sounds and all those are almost game like events that you're doing something that is not really necessary, but it kind of Daniel (30:23) Right. Yeah, Kevin (30:38) for that experience. yeah, grounding us in the present and worrying about something that in some ways, if you're playing a board game, is really silly. Like Monopoly, you're worried about getting little colored pieces of paper that we call money that have no purpose outside of the game. Daniel (30:48) Exactly, exactly. It's almost like we can't be present. I don't know, need to think about this. Kevin (30:59) Ahem. Daniel (31:05) Like it's really hard for us to be present without some sort Kevin (31:11) Yeah. Activity. Yeah. Daniel (31:11) focus or goal, and yet if we put too much emphasis on the focus and the goal, it robs us of the present. And so the solution is to have ways of creating points of focus and goals that are so, as you said, superfluous, so unimportant, so unnecessary, that we don't, our psyche doesn't get tricked into thinking that this is, this is something of serious seriousness and importance and we're no longer present anymore. Yeah. Like creating a mandala that gets destroyed or moving this piece across a board, which doesn't matter. Kevin (31:41) That's good Daniel. Yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. So there's a technique for meditation where you try to feel the air going through your nose So you really are tricking yourself that if I focus on how the air passes through my nasal passages It'll help me meditate. Well, why is that? That's kind of that's goofy Well, it just is that that's what we do to trick our brain to quit thinking about what's for Daniel (32:00) Yes, yes, breathe, yeah. Right, right. And even in that, there's a goal. The goal is to focus on your breathing, which, you know, but it's just, it's, a really silly goal. know, I mean, it's an unnecessary goal. Yeah. Kevin (32:23) Bright, bright. an unnecessary goal except for it helps ground you in the present but that has no purpose out this it is like a game like your I guess it has a purpose that it might bring you more peace or more relaxation or your blood pressure but that kind of thing I don't know yeah it is interesting how these things are weirdly superfluous but they all ground us in the present and as you said Daniel (32:43) Yeah, yeah, Kevin (32:51) Lots of spiritual, religious, and non -religious traditions have all indicated, and know, modern psychiatry, psychology, grounding in the present makes us happier. We are creatures that get lost if we become anxious about Daniel (33:07) our own spiritual tradition for you and me, Kevin, we come out of the Methodist Christian tradition, though this is not exclusively a Methodist Christian podcast at all. Whatever your tradition or no tradition is great, and we're glad you're joining us. But it makes me think of some of the things that Jesus talks about, like on the one hand, talking about, don't worry about tomorrow. You know, you've got, you know, the birds and the flowers, they don't worry about tomorrow. You know, or the, the Mary and Martha story, you know, about, just kind of choosing to be present. Kevin (33:46) and part of that being present is socializing and we are able to socialize with people in the present and play and games are a great way of breaking down people's inhibitions about interacting with others that we're not having to ask them, what's your job or, you know, come up with small talk, et cetera. You're not having to hold a cigarette and cocktail in your hand trying to, you know, be at at some kind of weird dinner party, you get to do something silly and everyone's silly together. Like we're gonna throw dice and get into this game. And you can see the walls break down. And that's one thing lots of people have stressed. Going back to our Board Game Faith podcast of how much it brings community and people together, which is a way of focusing on the present. Daniel (34:22) Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said, yeah. I know I've experienced in my own life and I think our listeners and many of us can probably test it too, that when you have a common thing that you can play around with other people, it sure makes being with other people a lot easier. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (34:57) Easier and it's fun and it's joyful. yeah, yeah And there's other ways to be with people that are joyful conversation or or a common project or work that's not the I mean, obviously there's lots of ways to socialize but man, it's play a great way to socialize Just why families like to bring out beloved games. It's it's why people go to sporting events It's yeah play is a is a great powerful way of Daniel (35:22) Yep, yep. Kevin (35:26) cutting across different backgrounds or identities or gender, whatever it is, culture. You don't know what to talk about with someone from another country, but hey, you both like to play dominoes, and that's a way to interact. And in fact, we've got that great manuscript from King Alfonso from Spain that shows Muslims and Christians playing chess. And obviously that was a valued way Daniel (35:39) Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, isn't that great? Kevin (35:55) cutting across the Spanish world that was both Muslim and Christian at the time in the medieval world. Daniel (36:01) Well, and at the time of this recording, the Olympics are going on in Paris right now. mean, and what another great example of that too, just that, you know, that yeah, when, at what other point in the world do you ever get people from almost all over the world, with a few exceptions, together for something? Well, play, right? Play. Play brings these wonderful sports, you know, Kevin (36:06) yeah, great example. Yeah. You see that heavy thing over there? You see that heavy thing? Let's see if can throw it furthest. You wanna do that? Let's see it. Daniel (36:27) that brings the world together. And how cool is that? Yeah. Yeah. Let's see if we can do it. Let's see if we can do it. Kevin (36:41) Okay. Yeah, and within a Christian context, although you can put this in other contexts, I think the idea of grace and gracefulness, of an unconditional love, play is a powerful tool for Daniel (36:53) Yeah, Yeah, yeah. In fact, you came across, this wonderful quote about play. Originally, we found it in article by Simeon Zal, but he's quoting another scholar. Would you mind just talking a little about this quote that you found about play and grace? Kevin (37:18) No, go ahead. You talk about Wariboko. You're on a roll Daniel (37:22) Well, yeah, well, just so there's this, you get all the credit, but Kevin found this great article by actually an acquaintance of yours, Simeon Zoll, about playfulness and the work of the spirit. And it also involves grace. And he quotes this scholar who comes out of the Pentecostal tradition, Wary Boko is his last name. Kevin (37:30) Mm -hmm. Daniel (37:46) who says that the, yes, I, yeah, my apologies for mispronouncing. He says that the logic of play is the logic of grace. The logic of play is the logic of grace. And then I think, and then he goes on to say, no, Waruboko says no self -addressed envelope from the giver. Kevin (37:46) I hope we're saying that right. Apologies if we're not. Daniel (38:14) There's no self -addressed envelope from the giver to send something in return when you, grace is all about not expecting something back. And he says, that's why plays the essential character of a spirituality given, governed by the grace principle rather than by the work principle. you don't play with, in play, because play is not a means to an end, but an end into itself, you're not doing this to accomplish something that you will get back in the future, right? It's not about what you earn, it's about the free gift of the moment, which is... Kevin (38:35) Yes. Daniel (38:52) a huge part of what grace is all about, right? Grace is a theological term, philozotophania, that just means, classic definition is the unmerited love of God, right? I like to say that grace is the, yeah, the good news that God loves you and there's nothing you can do about it, right? That just basically, and that's kind of what we find in play, that you are welcome here in this play and... Nothing is expected in Kevin (39:23) Yeah, yeah. Play, again, has no purpose outside of itself. So that's where it really has an analogy to grace in that it is its own reward, in a sense. So it's not work. It's not something you earn. It's something that's accepted. So a good game accepts the fact that people are there and they're going to have this experience. And there's no outside reward besides that shared experience. It's really beautiful. Daniel (39:51) Yeah, Kevin (39:51) You could add that the one requisite for play is a willingness to play. That's the only requirement. What's that? Yeah. It's the voluntary part, Daniel (39:57) Mm The voluntary part. Yeah, yeah. It's the voluntary part of the definition. When we say it's voluntary, you have to raise your hand. Yeah, you have to say, yes, I want to play. Kevin (40:05) Right, right. Because if they're like Daniel, we want to play a game and you say yes, and then you put your head down and take a nap, we can't play a game. Or if you decide to cheat or flip the table or something. But if you're willing to play and play in the spirit of the game and with the rules, that's the only requirement. You could have a, you know, wild muskrat on your head. You could be blind. You could be sniffling a lot or coughing like I seem to be. It doesn't matter. You could be male, female. Christian, non -Christian, as long as you want to play, you're accepted. And that's the beautiful idea behind play. And I see it at board game conventions, like, you like this game too. let's play this game. Right? It's just the shared love. And that happens in various hobbies, which we're going to explore, that hobbies bring people together, especially people of different backgrounds. Daniel (40:41) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, you just wanna play. Yeah. By coincidence, having a wild muskrat on my head is my favorite way to play Kevin (41:05) Well, I didn't want to remind you of that, but there was that time we did play and yes, yes, yes. Yes, and I had the longest. What is that card? The longest? Longest road until the muskrat ate it and then I lost the game. It ate the. Daniel (41:07) And it was, yeah, no, it's a happy memory. It's a happy memory. Yeah, yeah. Longest road, you're the longest road. Yeah. It came. That's why I like to play with it in my head. That's right. Because if anyone gets that card, it's so enrages the muskrat that it runs down my shoulder and eats the card. And then, and then I can be like, what card? I know you didn't win anything. And then the muskrat goes back. Plus it gives me the illusion of hair. If people squint their eyes enough, they think, Daniel has a nice. Kevin (41:26) Yes, yes, All right. Daniel (41:43) Head of Kevin (41:44) Do remember that time I wore the longest road t -shirt and the muskrat attempted to eat me? I was like, dude... I'm so angry. Daniel (41:48) Yes, it was so angry at you. It was so, what was the name of the muskrat? It was the, yeah, it was, that muskrat hated the longest road. It was Mephistilus, the longest road hating muskrat. That's right. That was, it was really hard to call it to dinner because it was just a mouthful. Kevin (41:59) Mephistilis? Wasn't it Mephistilis the muskrat? Hehehehe Yeah, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I'm really glad that that muskrat died. I get tired of that guy. I know you loved him, but... Daniel (42:17) He was kind of grumpy, let's be honest. It was... Really? She just wanted to make sure it was good that it gone. Kevin (42:19) You, you, you did a, go fund me page for his funeral and actually contributed and not for the reasons you wanted. wasn't out of sorrow. Speaking of, are you a Deadpool fan? Have you watched any of them? The opening bit is just really funny where, I don't think it's a big spoiler, opening scene. He digs up Wolverine in the hopes that Wolverine is still alive because of his healing factor, but he's not. But then he gets attacked by these agents and Deadpool proceeds to use the skeleton of Wolverine to slay them all and it's just Daniel (42:37) No, I haven't seen it. No, haven't seen it. No, have you? my, wow. That sounds really interesting. Kevin (43:02) It's so ridiculously funny. It's done to the N'Sync Bye Bye Bye song and evidently he replicates all the dances from the video. Yes, using Wolverine's femur and arms and claws and his skull and yeah, it's hyper violent and bloody, but it's so ridiculous that it's just yeah, it's just good fun. Anyway, tangent on a tangent. Daniel (43:10) Really? Wow, that's amazing. Interesting, interesting. That's wild, that's wild. No, I haven't seen that, thank you. No, no, So focus on the present, grace, and one way that this thing that the world says so unnecessary, play, is so unnecessary. But the other way, spiritually speaking, is another way too, right? What else would you say? I'm Kevin (43:49) The play gives us a sense of freedom, yeah. Play helps us identify what is deeply human and our core identity, and that's through being overdoing, as we were saying, which unlocks all sorts of important human values and godly values as well, if we want to throw that in there. But it also unlocks this notion of freedom, that Daniel (43:51) Yeah. Kevin (44:16) We are unnecessarily engaged in something that weirdly has a purpose within itself, which is you want to win the game, you want to build hotels, but it's very freeing because it ultimately has no purpose outside of itself. Daniel (44:30) Yes, yes, yes, that I love, I love that. And I think we owe a lot of this to, I mean, the theological community, mean, this conversation around the theology of play owes a lot of this idea of the importance of freedom to the work of Jürgen Moltmann, who just recently passed away. But. Kevin (44:33) Ahem. Daniel (44:54) He was a German theologian that wrote this little treatise called The Theology of Play that has, where he explores this idea that play is so essential to freedom, the freedom of God, the freedom of the spirit, and the freedom of the human soul too. It occurs to me as we're talking about this, that makes sense that in some ways the language of play, the language of freedom and the language of necessity. I mean, they don't, in some ways they're almost incompatible. mean, once something becomes necessary, you're not really free anymore, right? I mean, and so by definition, if you're dealing with things that are unnecessary, that is essential for freedom. And the things that are unnecessary are what constitute play, right? Play is unnecessary and unnecessary Kevin (45:34) Right. Mm -hmm. Right. Daniel (45:52) necessary for freedom, ironically. Kevin (45:55) Yeah, I think of necessity as like a cog in a machine, like it must turn and it must turn this way. And that's because it's serving a larger purpose, which is the operation of the machine. And humans can be turned into machines through some forms of work, but it's clear that that's deeply inhumane, that we are creatures of freedom and not of machines, where we are a cog in a wheel and we only exist to produce. So yeah, Moltmann is real, I was exactly thinking a lot of Moltmann here. The sense of freedom and liberation, as he puts it, and he's thinking political but also religious and personal is so deeply part of what it means to be human and play is such a part of freedom, really. Yeah, the freedom to play. Daniel (46:48) Yeah. think he even talks about players. it's as a revolutionary act in some ways. mean, it's, it's, Kevin (46:56) Mm -hmm. Daniel (46:59) It is a rejection of the larger, it can be a rejection of the larger narratives of the world, right? That, yeah. No, my value does not come from being a cog in the machine. My value comes from something else. Kevin (47:05) Yeah. Right, and both capitalism and communism can fall prey to turning people into machines in various ways. It can be oppressive. So any ism can be oppressive. And play is a way to reject that identity, to say no to a compulsory... Daniel (47:20) Yep. Yep. Yeah. Kevin (47:35) structure. Yeah. And he goes on to say that because the world was created playfully by God, God was under no obligation to create the world, but instead chose to, that God is being a freedom as well. And insofar as we're made in God's image and we were made by God, we also are creatures of freedom. And so we engage in playful acts of creation or just simply acts of play. Daniel (47:45) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love, yeah, it is. It is. I love this idea of creation as God's play, right? It wasn't, it was voluntary. It was not necessary. And God did it anyway, right? Like I'm just, I'm going to create this. I'm going to create. I'm going to, as our good friend to the podcast, David Bindewald, Dave Bindewald talks about, know, yeah, just God didn't have to create. Kevin (48:05) which is quite lovely. Mm -hmm. Daniel (48:34) 200 ,000 species of beetles, you know, but, but, it just got away. And, and again, not to go down the tangent of again, however you understand the act of God creating, you know, whether it's instantaneous or through evolution or other means, you know, we're not, that's not the point. The point is today we have 200 ,000 species of beetles and by golly, that seems extravagant and unnecessary, right? Kevin (48:38) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (49:02) and how wonderful that it's extravagant and unnecessary. Sorry, go ahead. Kevin (49:06) Yeah, well, in one of the teachings of Jesus, he says, consider the lilies of the field, but they left off the rest of that sermon, which is, consider the platypus, right? Like, consider the platypus, like, what a ridiculous creature that is, and there it is doing its little thing. Daniel (49:17) Consider the Platypus. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Isn't it great that we live in a world where something like the platypus is real? That's just, yeah, yeah. Kevin (49:28) It's so great. Yeah, people like to say keep Austin, Texas weird or keep Asheville weird, but we really could just say let's keep the world weird because it is weird. It is a weird place. Yeah, and that makes it thrilling. Yeah. Daniel (49:39) Yeah, we should have the platypus as our like as our mascot. Phineas and Ferb kind of took it already, maybe we can, it doesn't have to be agent P platypus. We can have a different. Kevin (49:46) That was so great. That's so great. Yeah, let's figure it out. The spirit in the Bible, in the Christian Bible and the Jewish Bible, is playful in areas. The spirit is hovering over the waters. It's delighting. It's creating. It's open. It's free from anxiety or work or judgment. That spirit is at work. In the Gospel of John, the spirit blows where it will. and it is this force that is unpredictable. And that's a thrilling way to consider how play works as well as how play might work for God. Daniel (50:36) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. Kevin (50:40) What else would you say about freedom and the spirit of play? Daniel (50:45) Yeah, no, think, you know, I think it's one of the reasons that a lot Kevin (50:48) Ahem. Daniel (50:51) philosophers, political thinkers have relished in this idea of freedom, even from not necessarily a theological perspective or spiritual perspective. think about, know, Friedrich Schiller wrote about the role of art in our lives. And when you talk about art, you're talking about Again, the unnecessary, right? The voluntary unnecessary. And, you know, and he talked about, know, we're never so human as we are when we play, right? Which I think is a beautiful thought because we are exercising our freedom to be human, right? We're not trying to fulfill a different purpose or an end. Kevin (51:33) Hmm. Daniel (51:47) And the other thing I think it brings to mind The play also gives us freedom from what we might call kind of the... the oppression of seriousness. Now there's a time to be, of course there's a time, there are times to be serious in life, of course. But sometimes it feels as if the world expects for you to be a functioning adult, to kind of labor under this burden of seriousness and the oppressive. We've talked about, remember we talked about kind of the oppressiveness of purposefulness in before, the sense everything we do has to be in service to this larger future goal or purpose or whatever. And by golly, that's just oppressive, right? And it just robs life of any sense of kind of freedom, just whimsy and play in the moment. At this conference that I was at, Marsha McPhee said, one of the quotes from her that I wrote down is, not everything has to have meaning. And that's a very freeing statement, right? It's a very freeing statement that you don't have to eke out purpose and meaning. And I guess it's for debate whether those things are the same, but out of every interaction, out of every moment, out of every, you know, act of Kevin (53:06) Wow. Yeah, no, that's so fact. I would go so far as to say in this moment, I may change my mind that our deepest joys are out of the superfluous. There is a joy in meaning, but the deepest joys are, you know, all of sudden a butterfly starts zooming by or you see a bat. Yeah, you hear an owl hoot at night. You see a bat dive out of the sky like it's nature is a great example of something that. Daniel (53:33) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, Yes. Yes, yes. Kevin (53:50) We don't really, like I don't need that butterfly. I don't need the tree out here, but it's the fact that it's superfluous to me gives me great joy. I don't know. It's a, I mean. Daniel (53:54) Yes. Yes, Thomas Merton has this great passage in one of his journals. Thomas Merton was a Christian Trappist monk who lived in Kentucky and lived, he was Methodist in heart, that's right. He died in 19... Kevin (54:13) But he was Methodist in heart, I think. You know what say about Methodism? It's always the next best thing. So like, whatever your religious tradition is, we're always the next best one. That's our big selling point. Daniel (54:22) That's great. That's That's great. That's great. But he has this wonderful passage in one of his journals where he is just walking across a field in his monastery in Kentucky and he just sees a flock of birds descending. And I forget exactly the words, but it was this ecstatic, euphoric moment for him where suddenly he had a sense of God joy and just in seeing this flock of birds descending, you know, and that's so cool. It is, it is. Yeah. My greatest moments of joy are, you know, we'll have the some music going while maybe I'm cleaning up the kitchen after dinner some night or whatever. And, and maybe, and the kids are home maybe for whatever reason from work or college. And, and also we just break Kevin (54:55) That's a playful moment really, because it is unnecessary. Yeah. Daniel (55:20) into a spontaneous dance party, right? And that is silly and it's purposeless. And it is my highest moments of life. know, they're just joyous moments. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of the seriousness, the presence of seriousness, you found this great quote from Chesterton that I think might be a great way to kind of wrap up this discussion. Would you mind? Kevin (55:22) That's so great. Daniel (55:48) sharing a little bit from GK Jesterton. Kevin (55:48) Yeah, let me just give a background that play also allows us hopefully to be a little free from the burden of ourselves. And I think we have to qualify that because there are some forms of play that this doesn't work for. If you're a very serious athlete, if you're competing at the Olympics and while that's a form of play, it's a professional form of play that is different. It makes me think of board game publishers and designers where they're playing, but it is also their work. And so it's kind of a different craft. And there's certainly people that play games that take it way too seriously, which is why I like at times really goofy or luck -based games, because it means that it's less work and it's more play, because a dice roll all of a sudden upends the board. And that can be really rewarding and goofy and joyful. So Chesterton talks about Daniel (56:19) Yeah. Right, that's so genius, yeah, yeah. Kevin (56:46) being free from the self and taking ourselves seriously as is really kind of a mark of divinity. He says angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly. Pride, and so he's picking up on some of the ideas of Christian vices and virtues. Pride is the downward drag of all things into an easy solemnity. We're too solemn, we're too grave and serious. One settles down into a sort of selfish seriousness. Daniel (56:53) Hmm. That's so good. Kevin (57:15) but one has to rise as to a gay self -forgetfulness. And he's using that older sense of the word gay, like we're happy and joyful. He goes on to say, seriousness is not a virtue, which is such a great idea. Daniel (57:21) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. That is, I love it. Kevin (57:34) seriousness is a vice. It's a natural trend to take oneself so seriously. It's a very easy thing to do. But laughter, course joy, breaking into random dances, playing a goofy game or just playing a game and you you imagine you're a real estate person or a builder and then you play Monopoly and then you lose. I mean what could be more silly and joyful than that? Like I sell real estate but I suck at Monopoly. Daniel (57:37) Mm -hmm. Yeah, But I'm horrible monopoly. Kevin (58:04) Exactly. He says, Salinity flows out of people naturally, but laughter is a leap. It is easy to be heavy, hard to be light. And here's the great bit, Satan fell by the force of gravity. Yeah, like Satan took himself so seriously, he was cast out of Daniel (58:19) That's so great. That's so great. That's a, Kevin (58:27) But angels, angels, yeah, are able to fly because they're able to in a sense laugh at themselves. Daniel (58:33) Yeah, I think that's a fantastic quote. Kevin (58:39) Yeah, so play helps us engage in a lightness of the Daniel (58:45) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Satan fell by gravity. Well, Kevin, this is good. Thank you for, I'm glad you found it. Yeah. And so for next time, we're to talk about next time. I'm so excited about next time. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know already that one reason we expanded the brand of this podcast was to explore other areas of play and playfulness beyond Kevin (58:50) Yep. Always good, Daniel. Next time, yes, next Daniel (59:13) tabletop games and we are going to be taking our first foray into that in our next episode. I'm so, we're winging our way. That's right. That's right. We are, we're going to be talking to a gentleman, Thomas Jones out of Ohio who, runs Jones racing pigeons. And, he started off out of playfulness out of a hobby. Kevin (59:19) We're winging our way, we're flying into new realms. Daniel (59:39) raising homing pigeons and it has become this, his life. It's become a ministry for him as well. And we'll hear more about that. But in part of some of his media, I've heard him say that the pigeon saved his life. That pigeon saved his life as he was growing up. And so I just, I'm so excited to to hear his story next episode. Kevin (1:00:01) my gosh. Daniel (1:00:08) as we consider the playfulness of pigeons and homing pigeons. And it's going to be great. So I'm really looking forward to it. Kevin (1:00:12) yes yes next episode. Till then loyal listeners feel free to contact us at playsavestheworld .gmail .com. Finally we are on Instagram and we have of course YouTube and the podcast player of your choice. Daniel (1:00:32) Yes, we would love to hear from you anytime. Kevin (1:00:34) Yes, and again, please tell us about your using hands and arms for geographical location. I've never stopped at a gas station. mean, well, we don't do this anymore. We used to stop at gas stations for directions and they never went. You're going to go. Right. Daniel (1:00:42) Yes, if you live in the Right. Go up the Palm of the hand, up to the thumb. But if we lived in Michigan, maybe we would. Kevin (1:00:53) Exactly, exactly. Maybe they would, maybe they would. Yes. All right, everybody. Thank you. Bye Daniel (1:01:00) Thanks so much everybody,