Daniel (00:04.579) Play Saves the World, Episode 3. Wired for Play. Daniel (00:31.875) That was great. Kevin (00:33.889) Yay! Daniel (00:34.884) Hey everybody, welcome to Play Saves the World, an ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:46.4) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:48.612) And we are so glad to have you joining us today. Whatever is going on in your world, whether you are driving a car right now or working out or doing laundry, speedboat, hovercraft, in the International Space Station, wherever you may be, it's great to have you tuning in. We thank you so much. Kevin, how are you? Kevin (00:58.944) Speedboat. Speedboat. Kevin (01:18.975) Good, how are you? Just thinking about the space station. Daniel (01:20.387) Okay, I'm pretty sure no one in the space station is listening to this, but that would be cool. I wonder if I wonder if they listen to any podcasts in the International Space Station. Kevin (01:34.176) I bet they do, I'm sure. How do you roll dice with zero gravity? Daniel (01:35.78) Yeah. Daniel (01:41.347) That would be wild. That would add a whole other dimension. Right. Kevin (01:42.913) You'd have to ask Hal to roll the dice. Hal, roll a d6. Daniel (01:49.379) That's not logical, Kevin. Under that sense. Well, yeah, wherever you are and however you're listening, we're grateful that you are here. And Kevin, I'm glad you're doing well too. Today we're talking about what it means to be wired for play. And leading up to this discussion are our two previous episodes. Kevin (01:54.589) Daniel (02:18.531) over the last couple of episodes have talked about work and play and kind of comparing the two. We've talked about how we've kind of explored together how play is this non -instrumental, meaning not a means to an end reality in life. It's voluntary, it's unnecessary. That's kind of essential to what makes play play. It is... unnecessary and yet it sure seems like it's necessary. And that's what this episode is about, right? Kind of exploring the necessary unnecessary, the role of play in human flourishing. Does that sound like kind of a good recap of where we've been so far, Kevin? Kevin (03:00.48) Mm -hmm. Kevin (03:07.104) Absolutely, absolutely. The miracle and mystery of play, yeah. Daniel (03:08.579) Okay, okay. a miracle, a mystery of play, and how we seem to be wired for play, even though from a certain perspective it can seem largely unnecessary and superfluous to life. Kevin (03:24.001) Yeah, yeah, that it's something that you grow out of. It's a childhood thing that you grow out of is what we tend to think. Daniel (03:30.723) Right, right. And as we'll discover in this episode, it may not necessarily be the case, but it sure is what we're taught. No, it's not the case. Lies. And it's not just part of being human, right? It's just part of, it's also part of being alive, right Kevin? This is something you were kind of showing beforehand, yeah. Kevin (03:37.184) That's not the case. It's not. It's not. Lies! Deceptions! Kevin (03:52.832) Yeah! Yeah, I mean there's this evidence that other mammals play on various levels. Of course, that's obvious with creatures that we take as pets, so cats and dogs and other creatures like that. But we see it with octopus, we see it with orcas who are randomly attacking yachts and boats, and we're not sure why. We meaning the scientist community. So I really mean they, because I'm not a scientist. But people that are questioning it, one theory is that they're kind of playing, that it's almost like teenager vandalism, that some of the orcas started attacking yachts and sinking them, and then others just decided, gee, that looks like fun. Because it's a superfluous thing. They're not endangered by the yachts. It's not a food source. Why are they doing it? So octopus will throw a ball to you in the water with people, evidently aquatic folks that Daniel (04:26.051) I understand. Daniel (04:51.555) Really? Kevin (04:52.993) Interact yeah, there's the videos of it that that they understand those types of games my cat who's Very very very dumb likes to play on a limited level. So despite really being pitifully stupid Daniel (05:03.939) Ha ha ha! Daniel (05:09.987) I would hate to play a game of catch with an octopus because I would think with my two arms compared to its eight arms that it would out catch me like all the time. Kevin (05:20.48) Yeah, but it's underwater, so it's not like you can do a fastball. Daniel (05:24.867) Okay, okay, that makes sense. Kevin (05:27.969) Yeah, but yeah animals play obviously young animals play like young human animals Creatures play they play more often little kittens little puppies play a lot but adult puppies and adult adult puppies known as dogs And grown -up kittens aka cats New category they also engage in play and playful activity and sometimes as we said before Daniel (05:43.523) You Daniel (05:50.883) Yeah. Kevin (05:53.665) Sometimes it overlaps with work, so the cat might enjoy hunting as well as it's a food source, but sometimes they hunt and play just for fun. Yeah, so... So animals do it too. Yeah. Daniel (06:00.611) Mm -hmm. Right, right. How can you tell when your cat is playing, talking about your cat and its desire to play? Kevin (06:12.577) You know cats are interesting and I've been watching videos and never thought of this but they don't have facial muscles. So they can't respond like a dog and others do with their eyes or their mouths or something. So you have to watch the tail and kind of their body gestures. So she kind of gets on her back and holds her paws up a little. And you can watch her tail. The tail of a cat is their main communicator besides a meow. So if the tail is up and crooked Daniel (06:18.275) Hmm Right, right, right. Daniel (06:28.099) Interesting, interesting. Daniel (06:32.931) Okay, okay, that's like... Daniel (06:37.923) Okay, okay, okay, interesting. Yeah. Kevin (06:42.112) crooked at the top like a walking staff or a bishop's... yeah, then they're usually happy. If it's straight up, they're kind of upset. Daniel (06:48.099) Okay. I didn't know that. Okay. That's cool. Okay. I also thought about the fact that yeah, dogs do have facial muscles that allow them to give kind of almost very human like expressions sometimes, but cats don't, do they? Yeah, yeah. The big puppy eyes. Yeah, yeah. And then you give them the piece of food that you're eating because they look like they're... Kevin (06:52.096) Yeah, so watch the tail. Be happy. Kevin (07:04.384) Yeah, they can do the eye roll. Kevin (07:13.248) Right. Right. Right. Daniel (07:16.579) They're asking why you hate them since you don't give them the food. Kevin (07:18.496) Yes, we see it with animals, but it plays out really particularly with human beings. Daniel (07:24.899) Right, right. In fact, playfulness and play seems to be kind of a universal part of the human experience. It's, you know, like you're saying at the beginning of the episode, Kevin, you know, so much, so often today we think of play as something exclusively just for children. But the truth is that... you know, looking back over history and archaeological records, bear this out, and historical records, bear this out, and people who know a lot more about such things than I do, that play and playfulness has been an essential and universal and ubiquitous part of the human experience since the very beginning, and not just for children, but for adults too. Just, you know, some different examples. One very famous, archaeological find was the royal game of Ur dating from like 2500 BCE. Folks familiar with the Bible, Ur is I guess most famous in the Bible. It isn't the land that Abram and Sarai come from that they... But I've always thought that sounds like almost like a Dr. Seuss kind of land, just the land of Ur. It sounds fairy tale -ish. Kevin (08:44.544) Urgh. Urgh. Daniel (08:49.059) But there is this ancient game that I think people still have tried to play, at least today, or at least figured out how to play. And I guess that's the problem with a lot of games that are discovered from ancient history. You know, what you don't find with them are the rule books. And so, you know, there weren't really rule books probably. That's right. That's right. Kevin (09:10.08) Right. Paper is not invented. Yeah. Daniel (09:15.043) And so trying to reconstruct how to play a game, which would be interesting. I mean, interesting thought just, you know, if you opened up a, I don't know, a box of pandemic or monopoly or Raiders of the North Sea without any instructions. Yeah. And like, how do you play this? Try to reconstruct that. Kevin (09:31.52) Yeah, it would be baffling. Absolutely baffling. Kevin (09:38.336) That's interesting and I would say it would be impossible to figure it out because there'd just be no clue, no clue to the wind conditions if you're looking at a monopoly board. Daniel (09:42.371) Yeah, yeah. Right, right. So who knows if we have figured out? Right, right. Kevin (09:49.954) Yeah, yeah, and the other great example is from Egypt and that's Senate S -E -N -E -T and that's a game that appears in some hieroglyphics of the Egyptians. So there, you know, there's an image of them for Horus, the god Horus, and there's a Senate game somewhere and they loved him so much that they were buried with him. But we like these old games, we don't know how to play it. Daniel (09:56.515) yeah. Daniel (10:04.547) Interesting. Daniel (10:13.091) That's so cool. Wow. Kevin (10:20.193) We know the board, we have them, we have the pieces, but how it actually is played is only a theory. Daniel (10:20.259) Right, right. Daniel (10:26.307) Yeah, that's so interesting. And again, an example, I mean, the gods played it, adults were buried with it. It was not understood to be something primarily for children, right? It was part of the adult human experience. Even the gods, as you said, yeah, yeah. And of course, this universality of the spirit of play makes sense beyond games, of course, though games are oftentimes the most immediate example of play and playfulness. Kevin (10:36.643) Right. No, no children were shown playing it. Yeah. Daniel (10:56.259) Barbara Ehrenreich, who I think is, I realized just, I found out just recently passed away, but she's most famous for her nickel and dime book. But she also wrote this book called Dancing in the Streets with the best subtitle of any book I know. The title is Dancing in the Streets, the subtitle is A History of Collective Joy, which is just, isn't that a great subtitle? But you know what, her book is just about this. Kevin (11:18.625) Wow. Daniel (11:25.03) Again, universal human experience in all parts of the world of when you get people together, sooner or later, they seem to have these experiences of dancing in the streets, of just these kind of collective dances and parties that happen in the streets. And I'm... I'm just starting to go through her book. So I haven't, I haven't read it exhaustively, but just this, this sense that, you know, it, it, even though it's a universal experience, it's generally seen more favorably outside of the West, though it happened in the West as well, May Day celebrations and, you know, and other celebrations before Lent and things like that. But, but generally, kind of seen with more suspicion in the West, even though it's more part of it. But it is, yeah, let's go ahead. Kevin (12:27.137) Hmm. So and she does she consider dancing and festival a game or play? Daniel (12:37.958) I think I'm probably bringing that word to it more than she does, but yeah. But I would say that certainly seems to be within the spirit of playfulness as we've been talking about it. This unnecessary voluntary, yeah, yeah. Not necessarily means to an end, but just this kind of bubbling over of, though it doesn't take, though it's not without organization. As you have pointed out, Kevin, playfulness doesn't mean. Kevin (12:51.104) Yeah, it's structured, but it's... Daniel (13:07.206) You know, she says, you know, it takes a long time to bring together those people and create the costumes and, you know, and choreograph the dances. And so there are structure to it, but it is, you know, a spirit of playfulness. So that's, you know, a sense of time in memoria or time in memoriam or whatever the correct form is there. Anyway, it's been around a long time. Thank you. Thank you. Herodotus, Herodotus, the, you know, the, the, Kevin (13:29.727) You're doing great Daniel, you're doing really good. Daniel (13:37.638) famous Greek historian called the recognized, I think sometimes it's like the first Western historian, at least that we know of, talks about the invention of games. You know, is this apocryphal? Yes, sure it is. It probably didn't happen this way. But, you know, writing about 450 years before Christ or BCE tells a story about Kevin (13:48.225) Mm -hmm. Daniel (14:07.014) the Kingdom of Lydia in Asia Minor, what's now Turkey, where there was a famine and in order to help alleviate the suffering of the people who were starving, the King decreed invented games. And so the King decreed that one day people would eat food and the next day people would play games and they would alternate back and forth to get their mind off of their starvation. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (14:33.44) to make the food last, yeah, yeah. Daniel (14:37.095) But again, that's a very adult thing, right? Not a child thing. We see these classic, classic ancient games of chess, chess and Go and backgammon and Monkala played just organically in ancient communities in Africa and Asia and the Middle East. And then probably one of our favorite examples, I think, Kevin is, remember good old King Alfonso? Kevin (15:05.152) Such a good dude. Daniel (15:08.102) So. Kevin (15:08.355) That that that that that does King Wenceslaus Why don't was the King Alfonso went to play chess on a certain day Daniel (15:12.23) good king Alfonso went out to ride a... Yeah! I think that's our next Christmas episode. Kevin (15:24.642) But he lost his bishop and executed his enemy Don't play chess with the king Daniel (15:30.024) You Daniel (15:35.974) So why do we remember King Alfonso? What's his thing? Kevin (15:40.034) Kizzie wrote a book about games in the 1200s. A little bit about theory and even life being kind of a game, right? Daniel (15:43.591) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (15:48.071) Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Kevin (15:51.17) So it's a manual of games and it shows this real flourishing of Christians and Muslims together playing chess. It's mostly about chess but includes birds, right? Falconry, I think. Daniel (15:57.415) Right. Daniel (16:01.385) I think, yeah, a few others, but so many examples about chess. But yeah, so illustrations that, as you said, had people from various religious backgrounds coming together, women and men, and again, predominantly adults playing. Yeah. Kevin (16:06.786) Mm -hmm. Kevin (16:17.218) Right. Yeah, playfulness is just huge in human culture. There is no culture without some organized play, and that would include sport, some kind of athletics, which is really interesting because there you've got people engaging in play and then people watching, which you can do with games, but it's probably a little less common. You don't have arenas of thousands of people watching some people play a game, but there's like a second level Daniel (16:28.168) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Daniel (16:36.136) Mm -hmm. Daniel (16:41.513) Right. Daniel (16:46.184) right. Kevin (16:48.034) derivative vicarious playing by the audience who watch the play. Daniel (16:53.032) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good example. The Olympics and such. Kevin (16:54.818) to really interesting. Yeah, the Olympics, we think about so many things from the ancient world. All those games that they do track and field are really old games, right? Throwing the shot put and throwing the hurling a spear type thing, jumping over hurdles, just very basic concepts, run and jump. And we still play those games and still compete. How high can you jump? High jump, it's known as, I believe. Daniel (17:13.898) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. Right. Right. Right. Kevin (17:25.666) Used to be called low jump, but people confused. Daniel (17:28.713) It was a bad naming decision. Yeah. Kevin (17:32.323) Right, right. Well, there was a competition for a low jump and it was, if I recall, it was 1922, Charlie Spondiko, and he just laid down and took a nap and he won and they realized that the game was broken. Daniel (17:36.009) Yeah. Daniel (17:41.737) Yes, yes! Daniel (17:47.213) It was, yeah, that's right. I forgot all about that, but yeah, that was, yeah, yeah. He was, I think also because people felt like he was, no one could do better, right? Like he'd achieved the lowest jump possible. Except, yes. Do you remember though, there was that, there was the American team that actually tried to, Kevin (17:50.018) You remember that? Yeah. Spon -dol Charlie. Kevin (18:00.834) Because he never he never rolled over he just kind of slumped Daniel (18:13.48) They dug a little bit like they dug ditches to lay in to get a little bit lower than Charlie Spandico But then they ruled that out as cheating right remember that yeah, yeah Kevin (18:16.93) Yes! To get a belt. Yeah. It's real, that was cheating. So no shovels or trowels permitted. There was a doping incident where people were doping with dope to stay asleep longer, and that was banned as well. That was the doping incident of 1942. Yep. Yep. Daniel (18:27.4) No. Daniel (18:34.44) Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, low jump would just... Which is a shame, because not to pat my back too much, but I feel like that's something I could have really excelled in. I feel like I've got good gifts for that, but no, no, yeah. It was not to be. Kevin (18:41.57) Lo Shump. Kevin (18:52.738) You could have done well and yeah, just born at the wrong time. Exactly, exactly. So playfulness is a major part not just of human society and culture and civilization, but also our creative and cultural achievements. So we see that in some various examples. And you've especially done some research on this. So talk some about this. Daniel (19:11.816) Yeah! Daniel (19:15.88) Right, right. Daniel (19:20.957) Yeah, yeah. So another, I am kind of embarrassed in talking about two books here that I've just haven't made it to the end of yet. But another book that I've been enjoying reading recently is called Wonderland, How Play Made the Modern World. Wonderland, How Play Made the Modern World, which might be a neat dedicated episode in the future of In Place Names the World written by a gentleman named Steven Johnson. But, you know, the central argument of his book is I've understood it so far is that these playful, creative, imaginative impulses that we have seen throughout history, that serious history is often quick to dismiss because it doesn't deal with wars and rulers, edicts, that's right, that those kind of playful imaginative impulses are oftentimes behind the forces Kevin (20:02.466) Hmm. Kevin (20:07.49) EDIC Daniel (20:18.219) that really have shaped who we are today. And yeah, well, you know, one example he talks about is fashion. Now we can get into this in some other point, in some other episode, but you know, I think fashion, the argument can be made pretty well, is a playful thing, right? I mean, clothing is a necessity, but fashion, it is unnecessary for, you know, my... Kevin (20:20.162) Hmm, such as? Kevin (20:37.922) Hmm. Daniel (20:48.33) t -shirt to have emblazoned across it Kakashi from the Naruto anime series. That is fashion. But I do it, right? Because it's playful, it's fun, it's unnecessary. And so he talks about the rise of fashion and specifically in the West, these places Kevin (21:05.41) Mm -hmm. Daniel (21:17.641) these stores where you could buy the latest fashion, the rise of these in the 1700s and in the West, as really creating the context environment that gave rise to our modern capitalist system, this idea of where we basically, so much of us in the West, we shop and consume as a pastime, right? As a recreation and... Kevin (21:43.618) Mm -hmm. Daniel (21:46.185) That is an invention of this kind of playful impulse for fashion, this totally unnecessary thing that came out of the 1700s. But you know, it's interesting, he also talks about, so come with me if you will, picture it. The ninth century Baghdad. There were three well -known, engineers and scientists who have come to be known as the Banu Musa Brothers, the Banu Musa Brothers. This was at the height of the Islamic Golden Age and so many advances in science and mathematics and engineering. And they create these schemes, these plans, these schematics, these plans for what we would essentially call kind of robots today, like these little robotic toys, elephants and giraffes and things like that. mechanically that kind of can walk in. As I understand it, they weren't necessarily made, but they were planned out. And then this impulse to kind of make these automatons carries throughout much of history. It was very popular in England in the 18th and 19th century. There was something called Merlin's Magical Museum, a guy named Thomas Denton. And one of the ideas that came to prominence of this idea of making Kevin (23:02.657) Mm -hmm. Daniel (23:13.75) automatons that could do things were was well, what if we can make the automaton do different things, for example, like write in a book, like write in a book, what if we get it to write different things in a book? And then this gave rise to the idea of like, what contributed to the development of the player piano, or punch cards, you know, where you put in different basically, what are you doing, you're putting in different codes, right? And so Kevin (23:34.113) Mm -hmm. Kevin (23:40.641) you Daniel (23:41.611) So then the idea of coding purely for playfulness is kind of the forerunner of the computer revolution, right? Where we get into Ava Lovelace and things like that. Yeah. Well, but first the idea of using a play card, a punch card, which we use for these playful things, these toys, someone came up with the idea of using it on a loom. Kevin (23:54.337) Really mean like the player piano. Yeah or robot Daniel (24:08.715) And this is then how we create different patterns on a loom much faster than somebody can do it by hand. And then, but it's the germ of the idea of coding, right? And then this coding then gets to, so yeah, and it also came from the world of music. All of this stuff that now is so much of what gave rise to the computer age that we're in has these roots in coding, the idea of coding that was developed for playfulness. Kevin (24:18.561) crazy. Daniel (24:37.674) and for toys. Yeah. Kevin (24:38.113) Wow, that's quite a story and side note the Banu Musa brothers I'm pretty sure that's the basis for an upcoming board game from Garfield games and that's Inventors of the South Tigers and in it. Yeah, your design and it's what you're describing. You have to design build design test and build various Schematics for these machines. That's the game. Yeah. Yeah Daniel (24:52.394) Is that right, really? Daniel (25:05.354) That's amazing! That's so cool! Kevin (25:08.513) So it's interesting because one person can design it, but then you could end up building it. So there's a lot of. Sort of cross playing of is do is it worth it for me to design? Test you have to test them as well design test and build my own or do I just do yours? Evidently you can play off each other Daniel (25:25.546) Is that available for pre -order now for kickstarting? Kevin (25:29.729) It has been kickstarted. I don't know. It may have finished already Inventors of the South Tigris, so they've done three. This is their third game in the Golden Age of Islam in Baghdad as you were saying in the ninth century or so there was scholars Well, there's wayfarers scholars and now inventors all of the South Tigris because they had the West trilogy Daniel (25:33.738) Okay, what's it called again? I'm sorry. The Adventures of the South Tire. Daniel (25:48.745) Yeah. Daniel (25:56.137) That's great. That's great. Kevin (25:58.689) and they had the North trilogy and so the East trilogy and that's a big question of are they into China, Japan, India, what are they going to do for the East trilogy? They have not announced it. It's pretty neat. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (26:08.492) Wow, that's so great. I'll have to check that out. Another game I've heard about this reminds me of, and listeners, if games are not your thing, that is totally fine. Kevin and I talk a lot about games, the predecessor. Yeah, the preceding podcast behind this was Board Game Faith about games specifically, but this is more about morely games. But another game reminds me of, I just heard of Kevin, it's called Ava's Dream. It's on, I think it's being crowdfunded right now as well. Kevin (26:20.737) It's our first love, but yeah. Kevin (26:37.185) Hmm. Daniel (26:37.355) It's about Ava Lovelace, one of the pioneers in Britain for coding, what kind of gave rise to the idea of modern computer coding as well. And I think it takes a little bit of a fictional approach because I believe she died early. And this was an idea that what if she did not die early? But in that game as well, it's not only a worker placement, but you are programming simple. machines and seeing whether those programs work or not. And so kind of a similar idea as well. So much of... Kevin (27:08.129) Wow. And it's that takes us to Google Calendar. That's crazy. Daniel (27:15.179) Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great that games are recognizing a lot of these pioneers in coding and programming that most of the world doesn't think about, that I don't think about. Kevin (27:23.809) Mm -hmm. Kevin (27:28.545) Yeah, so you play as the basis for fashion, as you said, as for science and coding. Play as a basis for, I guess, even cooking, which is one distinguishing marker of human beings as we cook. Like we create dishes that are beyond what we need, just nutritionally. And so cooking is very much a playfulness. What if I put, you know, if I take this salty ham and add it to Daniel (27:34.251) Yeah. Daniel (27:43.371) Right. Right. Daniel (27:47.435) Right, right. It is unnecessary. Kevin (27:59.777) this cantaloupe, what's that like? you know, that becomes a classic dish or a basil plant to tomato type thing. Yes, cantaloupe, I like heaven. Daniel (28:04.011) Yeah, yeah, the Cantaloupe a la Kevin. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because that's not necessary. We could just eat, you know, solid protein and fiber and we'd be, I assume, fine if we also got some nutrients and if we got some vitamins and minerals in there too, but, but. Kevin (28:12.833) Yeah. Kevin (28:25.665) Right, and we like variety, but we still go beyond variety. We experiment constantly with different dishes or trying cuisines or fusion cuisines. Did you know that there's a lot of Chinese people in Peru? Daniel (28:44.043) I have heard a little bit about this, yes. Kevin (28:45.281) And so we went to a Peruvian restaurant in Charlotte the other week and I noticed one of the main things they cook with is with a wok. Which is wild. So yeah, Peruvian, big Asian influence in Peru and other countries in that area where there were Chinese immigrants and the... I believe it's Japanese. Yeah, I think you're right. And so they have a history of bringing in rice and various dishes into other... Daniel (28:52.907) Neat! Even though it's a Peruvian restaurant. Daniel (29:01.666) Yeah. Yeah, Japanese immigrants, too, I believe. To Peru, yeah. Kevin (29:13.249) You know, in new and exciting ways. And I always find that really fun, really fun. Or if you've ever had a Banh Mi, it's that Vietnamese sandwich. And it's because of the French baguette that came over from French imperial colonies. The Vietnamese took the baguette and made a new sandwich with it. So it's really fun. Yeah, different flavors. So all that playfulness generates so much human culture and Daniel (29:21.067) Yeah. Daniel (29:31.915) That's so cool. Kevin (29:40.705) Energy and capitalism and growth, you know, these new areas and fields inventions come about really through play as you're saying I've forgotten that but but it's it's playfulness that invites possibility When Thomas Edison's yeah, they're trying to build something Daniel (29:44.268) Yeah. Daniel (29:48.972) Yeah. Daniel (29:53.388) Yeah, curiosity and yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it's essential. So playfulness play, it is historical, universal part of the human experience. It is behind our creativity or cultural advancement. a lot of it at least is, and it's also essential for human development as well. Daniel (30:41.454) Hey, Kevin, I'm sorry, can I pause? Can I just, is it okay if we do a pause there real quick? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Thank you. Kristen's contacted me about something. Kevin (30:43.617) Mm -hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Daniel (30:55.853) I'm sorry. Kevin (31:16.161) Where is the mustard? I cannot find the mustard. Daniel (31:25.005) That's weird, I don't even know why I came through. I'm sorry, I have a... Okay, anyway, I'm ready to go again. I'm sorry. Okay, thank you, thank you. So I'll start with play is also essential for human development. It's okay, all right. Kevin (31:31.329) Okay. Yep. Daniel (31:43.343) And a lot of scientists and researchers and psychologists have also been arguing over the last few decades that play is an essential part of human development as well, psychologically and emotionally, what it means to be human. I think here about Dr. Stuart Brown. Dr. Stuart Brown is really a pioneer in the area of play studies. joy of actually getting to meet him once briefly at a play conference. Yeah, I mean, it was just to introduce myself and say hi. But really, I think he's kind of a legend in this area. And, you know, he did really groundbreaking research and some difficult research, I think, that has led to, I think the generally accepted consensus now that Kevin (32:14.785) Really? Daniel (32:44.142) if we do not have the experience of meaningful play as children, that it will, it holds the potential of negatively impacting us for the rest of our lives. You know, yeah, as human beings, yeah. That it's just, it really is an essential part of what it means to be a human. It's needed for emotional, physical, and mental development and health, and create challenges later on in life. Kevin (32:56.352) Hmm. Wow. Daniel (33:13.968) I forget the exact story. If you're interested, you could look up again his story, Dr. Stuart Brown, but I believe he became interested in this and he was studying the histories of people who were... Daniel (33:36.271) who engaged in really some very horrific violent activities later on in their lives, awful acts of violence. And certainly this is not a one -to -one correspondence, and so we're not trying to say that, but he was surprised to discover in their stories and their upbringings that so many of them, they seem to do this pattern of many of them just denied the opportunity for meaningful play as children. Kevin (34:04.992) Hmm. Daniel (34:08.014) And yeah, so that really got him interested in how does play affect our health emotionally and mentally and socially. I believe that work also got him into contact with Jane Goodall, as you talked about animal playfulness and the work that she's done in saying playfulness and the importance of that for the development of chimpanzees. And more recently, Jonathan Haight. I mentioned a few episodes back, Jonathan Haidt is the author of a book that I just recently finished reading or listening to, The Righteous Mind, about kind of why different people vote differently and think differently about political issues. But his most recent book, I think, also argues for Kevin (34:51.071) Mm -hmm. Okay. Daniel (35:04.881) the importance of play in developing kind of a more of a non -anxious life. Though I have not read it, but I understand that's my art. That's one of his central arguments. And any of that gel with you or resonate with you? Kevin (35:12.607) Wow. Kevin (35:18.879) Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean kids How you interact with them is through playing it's an important part definitely you can everyone can see that it's it's how all Children are raised in all societies is some element of play therapy today is often with kids and teenagers There's some play element with it getting them to interact with it's just a basic way kids seem to interact with the world is playfully it's how they begin to learn and so if you're Daniel (35:39.249) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Kevin (35:48.414) Trying to connect with a child play is one of the best ways of doing that. You're also reminding me Mr. Rogers would do the puppets and there's a few YouTube videos where he brings in a puppet with an adult like a there was some guy it was like a Johnny Carson type host interviewer and Mr. Rogers starts doing the puppet and you can watch the host get kind of changed because he starts talking to a puppet. Daniel (36:15.857) that's so interesting. Kevin (36:16.477) Right? Like all of a sudden the puppet starts bringing this part out of him because you know, it's ridiculous. You know, it's fake, right? I mean, the thing doesn't breathe. It's not real, but somehow you just sort of start talking differently to a puppet. Because that's really an act of play like, right? And there's Mr. Rogers holding it. It's just like this puppet he's got, but it's like a little, you know, little cute little monkey with fur. And you just start, Daniel (36:24.433) Yeah. Daniel (36:31.153) That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:45.521) I love that, I love that, that's so great. Kevin (36:46.749) you know, can bypass our normal. systems. Daniel (36:52.113) Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's so cool. The moment... Kevin (36:53.821) If we're going to that we're wired for it, it's part of our created purpose or just simply part of our wiring, however you want to phrase it, that play is essential. part of human existence. Especially as kids, I think it's pretty obvious that kids, that's a dominant part of their structure and wiring, but it doesn't go away. It's still who we are. Daniel (37:09.745) Right, right. Daniel (37:21.042) Right, right. And I guess it brings up the question. I love that puppet illustration too, by the way. That makes me think of the Muppets as well. It's kind of the universal appeal of the Muppets to different ages and yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:35.679) Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was lots of adults were watching the Muppets. Daniel (37:43.922) It raises the question, associating play more with childhood. And there's no question that we do that. How much of that is inherent to our biology and our evolution and our development and how much of that is something that we're taught? I think we've discussed the after effect of the Protestant work ethic. Kevin (37:56.575) Hmm. Daniel (38:13.202) in a previous episode and I think the argument could probably be made linking Lewis to at least somewhat as well, you know, saying that play may be okay for children but not for adults. Yeah. Hmm. Well, cool. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. So yeah, so play is ubiquitous part, universal part of the human experience. It is a driver for a creativity and culture. It is important for human development, emotional, mental, physical. And some have even gone so far as to say, you know, therefore, because of... the importance of play in all of these areas. It's not a luxury. It's an essential part of what it means to be human. It's a human right. It's a human right. Kevin (39:10.43) Right. Daniel (39:20.626) I think I shared this before in our prior podcast, but at the same play conference where I met Dr. Stuart Brown, the keynote speaker was Professor Drew Lanham, who just talked about the basic human right of play and just that people have lived and died for play. That part of the civil rights work was to give all children the opportunity to play in the same playgrounds, right? And not to have playgrounds segregated based on the color of a child's skin. Yeah, swimming pools. Kevin (39:58.846) Hmm. Kevin (40:05.054) Right? Swimming pools. Yeah, these are places of play. There weren't swimming pools for you to exercise or something. These were pools simply for recreation and play. And they were not being fairly given opportunities were not fair to all citizens and members of a community. So right. Yeah. Daniel (40:16.241) Right, right. Daniel (40:25.745) Yeah, yeah. The most haunting example around pool, a pool that I remember he shared with I shared was when a community public pool was forced to be integrated by. Well, when integration became the law of the land, the local community responded by turning the pool into a. into a tiger pit. They put big cats in the pool. It was an awful thing. I forgot the whole story. But anyway, but yes, I mean, play is a right because it is essential for us to be human beings and to develop as healthy human beings. And when we deny that to other people, it's cruel. It is cruel. It is cruel to deny it to others. And people have, as he said, fought and died for that, right? So... Kevin. Kevin (41:37.564) Daniel. Daniel (41:39.537) given the fact that play is such an essential part of being human and an essential part of the human story. What are some takeaways from that? What does that mean for our day -to -day living today? Kevin (41:55.708) Well, we should start a podcast about it. Daniel (41:59.408) We should do that. And it should be called... Kevin (42:04.511) Play, save the world. Daniel (42:08.176) do do do do do do do do do do and that was our prelude to episode three wired for play hi welcome everybody my name is Daniel Hilty Kevin (42:09.982) Do do do do do do do do do. Kevin (42:18.718) My name is Kevin Taylor Daniel (42:21.872) And it's great to have you here in our previous episodes. No, OK. That was that would be that would be bad. Kevin (42:28.478) But no, we do want to introduce play in ways that make our lives more like the grasshopper, like our previous episodes have discussed, that we are more grasshopper, meaning we're more into play than we are probably aware, because we often think of ourselves as ants. And we are ants in the sense that as humans we can build and plan and structure and save and it's amazing what we've achieved. We can... We can survive in deep recesses of the ocean and submarines. We can live in outer space. Like humans can do amazing things. But we're not just that. We're also creatures that like to do silly things and wear costumes and do superfluous things as well. And that's probably closer to what we really are as creatures of play and I don't know. I hate to say silliness, but yeah, somewhat. I mean, we make comedy TV, so we like sitcoms and we like, you know, silly and comic movies and comedy is one of the basic forms of drama back to the Greeks. Daniel (43:31.089) Yeah. Daniel (43:38.769) Yeah, and you know what I say about silliness. It comes from a root word that's related to the concept of being blessed. Yeah, it comes from the same root word that in German is seelich, which means blessed. Yeah, to be silly is to be blessed in a way. Yeah. Kevin (43:46.844) I didn't know that. Kevin (43:55.932) Huh. Really? Right. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. So how can we make things a little more like play? And lots of people have given some thoughts to this and written books about it. Like Jane McGonigal has written a great book, Reality is Broken, and advocating her interest is more about video games. So how can we make our lives and our work more like a video game? Because in her point of view, making it Daniel (44:14.321) Yes. Kevin (44:27.996) Gamified makes it more rewarding Where we have the possibility of failure where we get a good feedback system as to how we're doing because games often have a score You know how far you've gotten and course if you fail you just start over and that's not something we typically do in our lives We tend to be much more Never fail and also I'll vaguely maybe once a year tell you how you're doing at work or something Daniel (44:31.089) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Daniel (44:43.697) Right. Daniel (44:56.466) Right, right, right, your annual evaluation. Kevin (44:59.964) your annual valuation. Daniel (45:02.765) Yeah. Kevin, it's time for you. I think we should do our annual evaluation right now. Here it is, man. Kevin (45:07.868) Okay. I wanna hear it. Daniel (45:11.698) You're awesome. you Kevin (45:17.5) You're doing a great job. Daniel (45:19.346) Ha ha ha! Daniel (45:23.41) But yeah. Kevin (45:23.646) And hey, you know, and interject a little seriousness there. Freedom to Fail, we started a podcast called Bored Game Faith and we loved it. We thought it was great. And then we decided, okay, what if we rethink it? And so we kind of launched Gen 2, which is play saves the world. So we had a little freedom to fail, not in the sense it was a failure, but in the sense that we wanted to redo it. So. Daniel (45:26.514) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (45:40.946) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (45:46.674) Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Nothing lasts forever. Except sauce. Have you heard this? Have you heard that? Yeah, my kids taught me this. I guess it was a meme on the Internet a few years ago. Juice is temporary. Sauce is forever. Basically, you know, if you put if you put orange juice in the fridge, apple juice, grape juice, eventually it's going to go bad. But sauce. Kevin (45:50.877) Nothing lasts forever. Kevin (45:56.093) Basas is the boss. Kevin (46:01.725) Okay. Kevin (46:13.693) Yeah. Daniel (46:16.594) in the refrigerator will never go bad. You know, like ketchup, Worcestershire sauce, barbecue sauce, it's there forever. Kevin (46:18.781) Weird. Kevin (46:25.789) Is it the vinegar you think? Something in it. Daniel (46:28.529) It's a good question. But most things are not forever, except sauce. Yeah. Kevin (46:34.877) except for the sauce. And sweet baby Rays is the boss, which is a very popular sauce. Sauce is the boss. Yes, what other examples do you have? Yeah, I know you. Daniel (46:39.344) Sweet baby Rays is the boss. Yeah. But Jane McGonigal, go ahead, yeah. I was just agreeing. Yeah, I mean, Jane McGonigal is such a creative thinker about how to bring these elements of play to the rest of life, even in our areas of work, right, to make it more enjoyable. Because if we are wired for play, if our hearts and our minds respond in positive ways to play, then it makes sense. Even if work is not technically play, to bring some of those playful elements to work. And so she, for example, talks about ways that we can gamify, to use kind of that word, gamify our chores. She talks about this game where you go on a quest and you level up in the quest and you get more experience points and hit points and things like that. The more you clean the toilet or the more you vacuum the floor, and it's a way to charting it and keeping track of that as a way to kind of level up in life. One of my favorite examples that she gives is she made up this game called Tombstone Hold which is based on a Texas Hold poker and the importance of considering our mortality. She begins by saying, you know, that studies have shown there are some practices that have been proven to make us happier in life. And one of them is to spend short periods of time frequently contemplating our death. And she says that's counterintuitive, that is. And so, or to contemplating death. And so she developed this game called Tombstone Hold where based on the shape of the tombstones in a cemetery, which are the suits, like clubs and spades and hearts and diamonds, the... tombstones don't come in that in their shapes, but you kind of, you know, they say this shape corresponds to a club and this shape corresponds to a heart. And then the numbers on the tombstones, which can correspond to the face of a card, that you and a partner have to touch different tombstones in a cemetery that come up with a combination of suits and numbers that is greater than or beats Daniel (48:59.666) these suits and numbers of another pair of partners in the cemetery. And so it's fun, it gamifies it, but it also just kind of gets you more comfortable around the subject of death. And she said, for the purposes of just making us happier. Kevin (49:15.483) Yeah, and that graveyards actually want to be visited. They don't want them to be... the people that maintain and run them, they don't want them to be abandoned places. They should be places we're connected to. So they actually would like people to visit graveyards more often. So this game also achieves that goal, which is weird. You don't think about graveyards needing living people. But it's sort of... I don't know if it's... Daniel (49:26.674) Right. Daniel (49:38.514) Yeah. Right, right, right. Kevin (49:45.723) More unique in america than other places, but we're not connected to those that have died. We don't typically visit graves At least you know generally speaking there are certainly counter examples of that, but we don't have a day of the dead We don't do we well actually in the old days people used to have a homecoming Day where they'd go visit the family grave and clean it up, right? I think that used to be family a tradition. That's largely lost so people tend to Daniel (50:08.851) Right, yep, no, you're right. You're right. Kevin (50:13.883) go through the funeral and then have no connection with that grave again. And that is, that's kind of sad. And so she's trying to get people, as you said, back to being present in graveyards. Daniel (50:18.099) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:25.939) Yeah. How do you feel around graveyards, Kevin? Do they, have they ever found them? Yeah. Kevin (50:29.307) Find them strangely peaceful and I'd like to I enjoy if there's someone famous I kind of like to have gone to their grave You know if I can I think that's that's pretty neat and I don't find them Yeah, I think they're there for doing it Strangely here in Alvaro, and I think other places Pokemon go if you ever played that game where you collect Pokemons they often have sites in graveyards Daniel (50:37.171) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:51.251) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:57.107) Is that right? Kevin (50:58.491) And I don't know if that is just because it's on the map or it's along the lane lines of Jane McGonigal or what like it might seem a little disrespectful, but actually it is getting people to get to the graveyard and you're not harming anything. You just go in there and you have this virtual capture of Pokemon. Yeah. Did you ever play that? Daniel (51:20.595) Interesting, interesting, yeah. I played it very briefly, not very long, but did you? Kevin (51:28.954) Yeah. For more than you, but I eventually got tired of it because it did become a little addictive. And interestingly, my mother -in -law really got into it. Daniel (51:35.347) Okay. Neat. Neat. Kevin (51:39.962) But we all kind of got out away from it. It just kind of wasn't, yeah, I don't know. But there were some really cool Pokemons to collect. I remember having a lot of excitement and fun. Daniel (51:48.787) That's awesome. That's awesome. I like it. Kevin (51:50.33) And you could go battle. They had like places where different teams were and you would battle and take over their lodge or something or their gym. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (51:58.052) really? Okay. Okay. These would be virtual lodges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but it wasn't... Kevin (52:03.866) Yeah, it's all virtual. It's almost kind of like AR or VR because it's overlaid on our world. So augmented reality. Daniel (52:09.747) Right, right, right, right. Yeah, that's cool. And then you mentioned also, Kevin, before going on the air, that our friend Dave Bindewald also is an advocate for how bringing elements of play into the rest of life makes the rest of life better as well. Would you like to talk a little bit about that also? Kevin (52:15.866) Really neat. Kevin (52:22.042) Mm -hmm. Kevin (52:33.338) Yeah, Dave has a real interesting approach to going into businesses and other places to get them to engage in some games to consider how games help people and help companies and workers and others to have find a lot of creativity as we were saying earlier to find the freedom to fail that failure should not be the end and the fact Daniel (52:52.851) Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Kevin (52:59.706) Failure is just a path to getting where you need to go. It reminds me of Steve Jobs said there's a thousand no's behind every yes. He's the famous Apple computers guy that to get to the iPhone, they had to fail a lot. There are lots of failures. So failures ought to be celebrated because they help you know what to say no to until you can finally get to the yes instead of, my gosh, you know, you messed up. Daniel (53:08.115) Mm -hmm. Daniel (53:16.659) Yeah. Daniel (53:23.987) Right. Right. Daniel (53:30.035) there. Kevin (53:30.682) Yeah, so this creativity, team building, enjoying each other's company failure, that people playing games together is a great way for them to bond and connect. Daniel (53:32.563) He, Daniel (53:43.763) And sidebar, if that sounds like something you'd be interested in for like your business or organization. Yeah, Dave runs this program out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. If you're in that area, you can look him up. He's the Center for Play and Exploration. It's a neat organization. Kevin (53:57.306) Mm -hmm. Daniel (54:07.571) And one other thing I wanted to mention that Jane O 'Gonagall said was the ability of crowd sourcing it through play different tasks that are too large for any one person. She talked about some journalism research that was happening. It got me thinking about, I have not read the three body problem, but I watched it on TV. Did you, have you read it or watched it or? Okay, yeah. Kevin (54:30.17) Mm -hmm. I read it, it's wonderful, and I started the show but kind of didn't get very far. Partly because we were watching it with our son and he was away so we kind of waited for him to get back and then we just, so kind of a scheduling hijacking, hijack schedules, yeah. Daniel (54:38.003) Yeah. Daniel (54:45.107) Alright, yeah. That makes sense. I don't understand. This may not be entirely the same thing, but there is this element in there, not to hopefully give away too much, but just of an alien presence, an alien population using a game to kind of crowdsource on a massive scale some things that they were looking for, games that humans could play. But anyway, Yeah, so I just that idea of using games to kind of get work done on the side through large groups and crowds is something that Jane McGonigal mentions as well. Kevin (55:22.362) Yeah, that's right. Kevin (55:31.357) Yeah, and I think it might be in the sequel, the second book, but there's a whole other plot with playing where... I don't... Where does the first season end without spoilers? Daniel (55:41.875) Yeah, Kristin, my wife, has read the books or at least some of the books and she watched it as well. She said that the first series, the first season of the show actually goes a little bit into book two. Yeah, so it does go beyond the end of book one a little bit. Kevin (55:55.869) Okay. Kevin (56:03.293) because it is about an alien invasion and the aliens are watching and we earth appoint some people to try to solve how to fight the alien invasion and the people that start coming up with specific plans absolutely fail because the aliens have a way to stop us but the one guy that they are scared of is the one they can't figure out what he's thinking because he's playing like he just goes and sits by a lake for four months Daniel (56:12.243) Yep. Yep. Daniel (56:26.547) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (56:31.485) And they have no clue because he won't do anything and they have no clue what he's doing. And it's kind of, I just, I just love that bit because it was his non productivity that ends up saving things. And it's true. Like, like the philosopher Nietzsche, he just went walking for a few years and then started writing books. Like there's lots of examples of people that seem to goof off for awhile, but the whole time they were actually working on a certain level because through playing they were actually working. Daniel (56:34.387) Yeah. Daniel (56:39.859) Yes. Yes, yes. Daniel (56:50.035) Mm -hmm. Daniel (56:58.323) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. Kevin (57:01.053) They were able to work out a problem. So yeah, you don't save the earth by day one just writing out a five page plan. No, you spend a year kind of thinking about it. Daniel (57:10.739) Right. Yeah, and that little philosophical conundrum, I'm sure you know it and understand it better than I do, having read the books, but I just find it fascinating this idea of how do you come up with a plan, right, this alien race can, basically they can potentially hear and see everything we say and everything we do. And so are always in on whatever plans we're making. And so how... Do you come up with a plan? Yeah, that's right. You keep it entirely in one person's head and from beginning to end. And that's, that's such a, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (57:50.751) Right. It's almost an interior game. Which reminds me, side note again, but from an earlier episode of Board Game Faith, we had the satanic panic. Daniel (58:01.843) Mmm. Kevin (58:03.039) and with the geek preacher, Derek White, and his comment in his great documentary about satanic panic, the goal of that was to take over our human imagination. That some elements of Christianity were so bent on control that even your mind and your fantasy life would be controlled. Like they would say, you can't pretend to be a dragon master because that's evil. Daniel (58:05.491) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (58:15.187) Mmm. Daniel (58:30.579) Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Kevin (58:31.647) and ultimately they lost that our minds are our own. Yeah, so, yeah, you should have the freedom to pursue your thoughts and imagination how you want as long as it, you know, doesn't impact other people. Daniel (58:48.883) Yeah, which is a good segue to our next episode. If it is true that the essence of play is one of the essential qualities of play is that it is unnecessary, it deals with unnecessary objects. And yet if it is also true that it is a necessary part of being human, then how do we reconcile those two things? How do we reconcile the unnecessary? Kevin (59:14.527) Ooh, wow. Daniel (59:16.819) necessary or the necessary unnecessary. And I think to try to get at that, it gets at what you were just saying, Kevin, these issues of freedom of the mind, freedom of the heart, freedom of, we might say the soul, freedom of human flourishing. And that's going to be the topic of next episode, how we reconcile these two realities, the unnecessary and the necessity of play. And we're going to talk about the spirit of play. Kevin (59:47.2) Yeah, it's coming great. Daniel (59:47.285) next episode. Kevin, anything else on this episode? Kevin (59:54.016) No man, check us out on Instagram and always glad to hear from you. So email us folks, send us an email. Daniel (01:00:02.292) Yep, playsavestheworldatgmail .com. We would love to hear from you. And if you would like to support this podcast, you can do so in our Patreon account as well. Just check that out on our link tree on Instagram and you can find a link there for our Patreon. Kevin (01:00:18.464) Sounds great, Daniel. Daniel (01:00:20.628) All right, you all are awesome. Kevin, you're awesome. Thanks so much. Kevin (01:00:26.688) Goodbye.