Daniel (00:03.407) Play Saves the World, episode 5, For Love of the Homing Pigeon. Thomas (00:20.173) you Daniel (00:32.506) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World, a bi -weekly conversation on the meaning of play for human flourishing. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:44.863) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Thomas (00:47.798) and I'm Thomas Jones, the Birdman. Kevin (00:48.555) and our special guest. Kevin (00:53.09) Birdman. Yay! Daniel (00:53.284) The Birdman. I wish I had a cool nickname like that. That's awesome. Welcome Thomas. We are so glad to have you here. Thomas (01:03.544) Yes, sir. Thank you for having me. Daniel (01:07.997) So we are coming to you today, dear friends, from a few different parts of the country, of the United States. We have listeners from around the world. as always, Kevin's out there in North Carolina. I'm here in Missouri. But Thomas, the Birdman, Jones, you are about halfway in between. are in Ohio. Is that right? How are things out in Ohio? Thomas (01:31.478) Yes. Yes. Daniel (01:36.503) out in Ohio this morning. Thomas (01:38.446) Well right now the weather is great. It's nice and calm and cool. It feels good. We've got 70 degree weather right now. Daniel (01:47.428) that sounds really nice. It is a... Thomas (01:49.6) Yeah, yeah, we had a very stormy day yesterday. Daniel (01:54.178) Okay, okay. It's a little bit hotter here. How about North Carolina, Kevin? Are you in the throes of summer? It's fine, yeah, okay. great. Okay, okay, cool, cool, cool. Well, we are so excited to welcome Thomas Jones, the Birdman, to Play Saves the World. This is... Kevin (02:04.83) It's fine. It's fine. 80s. It's not as miserable, but yeah. Daniel (02:22.106) people who have listened to this podcast before, aware of this already, this podcast is kind of dedicated to the idea that play and playfulness and hobbies and the things we do for the love of it really are the most important things in life, the stuff that gives life meaning. that sometimes we can start off going down a road in life because it interests us, we have fun doing it, it's a hobby, it's playful in some way, and it can turn into so much more for us as well. could be our life's calling, a vocation, a sense of what gives our life meaning. And Thomas, that is, I have to say, kind of what really caught our attention about your wonderful videos about the love of the homing pigeon. and that you have had this wonderful journey with keeping pigeons, homing pigeons in your life. so we'll get into that in just a moment. But before we do, Thomas, would you mind just tell us a little bit about yourself, please? Just kind of introducing yourself to our listeners this morning. Thomas (03:29.442) Yeah. Thomas (03:37.944) Well, I'm Thomas Jones. Again, I'm from Dayton, Ohio. And I've been blessed to be a, I guess you would call it a naturalist, a nature lover, which started in my early childhood. So I think I can go all the way back to when my great grandma lived in Louisiana. and she had chickens on her farm. so I think it was an imprint with the birds at that time that kind of brought me here. But besides pigeons, I do a little construction work, things like that. I have children. And we just enjoy living life. That's basically where I'm at right now. Daniel (04:11.833) Mm. Daniel (04:18.319) Hmm. Daniel (04:31.321) Great. Daniel (04:37.903) That's great. Kevin (04:37.984) What is it about nature? What makes you a nature lover? What does it give to you? Thomas (04:43.79) The nature gives me a sense of freedom, a sense of calm. It brings me closer to knowing that there is a God, you know, when I see the wonderful creatures that He has created. And I am just overjoyed with how it's been placed in my life to be... surrounded by such beauty. I can go on and on about what God has done for me through these animals. I've come to love them, not just pigeons, animals abroad, different types of things, all the way down to the little fishies like I was just telling you about earlier. They're just a joy to have. Kevin (05:39.779) One of the things that strikes me with animals, there are some that are affectionate like dogs, sometimes cats. We've got a cat that's not real affectionate, but sometimes cats. But fish and pigeons and others aren't really affectionate, right? So how would you analyze that? Like, I know what you're saying about they are chickens are kind of calming and they're curious, but they're not going to get in your lap, right? So what would you say? Thomas (05:48.642) Sure. Thomas (05:58.005) OUTS Thomas (06:05.602) Yeah, mean, have, I have, you know, I have roosters out back. have roosters and chickens out back. And, they, I do have pigeons that are, that are tamed. So they are, it would surprise you because like the way they fly to me, you know, when they see me, so they, they have that dog like attitude, you know what mean? So I have some, I have one back there and her name's little blue. Daniel (06:29.146) Yeah. Kevin (06:29.187) Hmm. Thomas (06:35.486) And she knows when she sees the peanut bottle, here she comes, you know, and then her mate is his name is Big Black, same thing, you know, they're right on me. So they can't be affectionate, but they're affectionate for a reason. They're looking for that food. Yep. Daniel (06:43.993) You Kevin (06:53.9) Sure. Daniel (06:57.55) You know, as a dog owner, I have to admit, I love to think about how affectionate our dogs are, but if I'm being honest, they're affectionate for a reason. They know where their food comes from. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Little Blue, watch this, and Little Blue and Big Black, they are the parents, as I recall from your videos, of Big Blue, right? Thomas (07:06.527) Exactly. Kevin (07:07.028) Yeah. Thomas (07:11.64) Right. Right. Kevin (07:14.231) Yeah. Well, I have a fish tank. Go ahead, Daniel. Thomas (07:24.648) Right, yep. And they have several sets of babies, but they have several sets of babies, but I kind of identified a few of their babies like, I took personal. You know what mean? Daniel (07:28.816) You have a wonderful Daniel (07:40.964) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. That's cool. Great. Kevin (07:44.867) Right. Yeah, well my fish will rise up in the tank as I come down and see I don't know if it's just me I doubt it but they definitely come up to greet me because they know I'm gonna feed them So I enjoy watching the interact but there are animals that you're much more distanced. There was a very funny reddit Bit conversation that I wish I'd preserve but it was basically people talking about strange Thomas (07:56.287) Exactly. Daniel (07:57.529) You Kevin (08:13.095) They kept like snakes and spiders and things that gave them no affection at all and then they've since died and how much they absolutely missed them like You know, had this spider and he was really grumpy and I had to feed them these grasshoppers and now I really miss them Yeah, it was really cute how we can find calm and love in things that aren't actually Affectionate Thomas (08:22.094) Wow Daniel (08:22.285) Hmm, interesting, interesting. Thomas (08:34.99) Right. Kevin (08:37.091) towards us. You plants are that way, even a sunset, like we enjoy it, but it's very one -sided, which I think is kind of beautiful too. It is calming as you said, so yeah. Thomas (08:43.899) Right. Exactly. Right. Daniel (08:46.009) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So you mentioned pigeons, Thomas, of course, and that's why we're talking. And I wonder if we could return a little bit, if you don't mind, please, to a conversation the three of us had right before recording, which is, you know, we hear about racing pigeons and homing pigeons, and then, of course, there's just the pigeons we see in the cities. so if you don't mind just kind of, for people who don't know very much about pigeons, like Kevin and me, if you don't mind kind of talking us through, what are the... What are the differences between, are there differences between different kinds of pigeons and then what makes them special? Yeah. Kevin (09:24.653) Yeah, and also understand Daniel's had a weird fascination with homing pigeons for a long time. So mostly I hear about homing pigeons because he wants to just... Did you? Daniel (09:32.432) I have, I have. I've read a book on it. You're like, you're like a hero to me. I'm so excited to talk with you about pigeons because I've been so interested in the subject for a while. So yeah. Kevin (09:41.409) Yeah. Daniel wants to design a board game with humming pigeons as the theme. Thomas (09:44.468) Okay Well, well that's interesting Daniel I want to make an animated movie about homing pigeons I Really do so I really Yeah, I got some I got some funny things in my head about you know Just to make a really good movie kid -friendly movie with homing pigeons. I think would be great Yeah Daniel (09:47.203) I do, I do. Daniel (09:57.603) That would be awesome. Daniel (10:10.024) I'd love that. I think that would be fantastic. Thomas (10:10.88) So just to answer to your question about the different Mm I don't know if we had a delay or something, maybe a delay there. Daniel (10:21.747) go ahead, I'm sorry, yeah. Thomas (10:25.1) Yeah, I was saying the difference in homing pigeons, city pigeons, he called them carrier pigeons, is really the same thing, but they have been domesticated, okay? And they have been interbreeded with different types of species of pigeons to bring about the ones that are used for what we're talking about today. So if you go back few you can go back of to the World War one and two there is a pigeon by the name of Geronimo you can look him up on the internet he's a he had he had actually received a medal for his activity in helping in the war this bird went through being shot lost a leg and still made it back to the base to let the Daniel (11:16.974) Wow. Thomas (11:24.51) other soldiers know what they're facing, which is a really cool story about Geronimo. And there are some others who's had honor in that also. mean, got to... Pigeons are numerous around the world. And most people don't know that the... Daniel (11:34.969) That is great. Thomas (11:50.432) regular city pigeon, which a lot of cities refer to them as pharaoh and they want to get rid of them because they're so numerous and they claim they're messy and etc. So they introduce things like raptors to get rid of these pigeons. and poisoned and trapping and all these things to get rid of or to at least control the numbers of the pigeons because of how fast they can reproduce. Now the difference between a city pigeon and the homing pigeon is when you have interbred carrier pigeon and a city pigeon. This is where this comes into play at. You've taken a carrier pigeon, there's an actual Daniel (12:16.826) Hmm. Daniel (12:27.31) Hmm. Thomas (12:43.192) Pigeon they call a carrier pigeon. So when he's interbreeded you get what they call what we call a homing pigeon and you can also distinctively identify them by a look. Okay, the regular city pigeon he's going to have a more of a slender bill and it's what this little white piece on his nose is called a sear or a wattle. It's going to be actually very smaller. Daniel (13:00.015) Hmm. Daniel (13:07.267) Okay. Thomas (13:12.088) than when you see a homie pigeon. And I have a surprise for you here. Just kind of give you an idea of what I mean by that. So this is, this here, this is one of my birds here and his waddle, yeah, this is Slater by the way. This is Slater and Slater's two years old and he has the Daniel (13:12.184) Okay. Kevin (13:28.911) Aww. Daniel (13:39.032) Hey Slater! Thomas (13:41.046) the typical look of, and he's a true homing pigeon. So he sees something over here, because I have some snacks here. He sees these peanuts in my hand. You want that? Yeah. So, but yeah, he's natural homing pigeon. Yes. Daniel (13:50.52) Okay. He's beautiful. Kevin (14:04.684) It's beautiful. Thomas (14:04.95) Now looking at a city pigeon you're going to see a slight difference in that bill. It's going to be a lot thinner. It's not going to be the same. And also most of your racing homers are a lot bigger too. Yeah, but this is our boy Slater. Yeah, we'll put him back. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (14:06.616) Okay. Daniel (14:14.754) okay okay Daniel (14:21.077) Okay, okay. Daniel (14:25.306) Hello, Slater. Thank you. I think Slater is the first non -human guest we've had on this podcast. What a wonderful surprise. Thanks for arranging that. What a wonderful surprise. I love that. Thomas (14:35.468) Hahaha Kevin (14:37.58) think that's right. Thomas (14:41.41) No problem. Daniel (14:44.326) that's so interesting. so, and so it, and so the carrier pigeon, the homing pigeon, I mean, what, what, what, and you talk about Geronimo and being able to, you know, to, to, to deliver these messages and the kind of reconnaissance and the war. So all of this is built around the pigeon's ability to, what, what is it? So it can always, it always finds its home. Is that how, is that how this works? Like, no matter where you put it. Thomas (15:02.339) Shoo -it. Daniel (15:14.359) It always comes home again. that how this works? Thomas (15:18.39) Yeah, yeah, what it does, you take the pigeon and you actually, wherever your location is, wherever their home base is, that's where they know to come to. So once you've got them acclimated to your home or wherever you're going to have the loft set, you begin to take these birds just slightly away from the house a few miles at a time to get them used to flying back home. So that way when you start doing long distance flying, they know that they have to navigate back to a certain place. So with mine, I take these birds and we take them maybe two or three miles out at a time when they're young, till we get to about 50 miles. to see how well they can return home. But I've lost birds just two miles away from the house, you know what mean? So they can get lost. But for the most part, wherever their home is, they're gonna come back to that spot. Daniel (16:27.689) Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Kevin (16:27.906) Mm. Thomas (16:36.172) unless of course they get attacked. Daniel (16:37.057) Okay, okay. Daniel (16:43.407) I know in some of the videos that I've watched, have sometimes when a pigeon gets lost or they won't come back, you'll send out like other pigeons to kind of entice them back. Is that right? And how does that work? Thomas (16:58.796) Well, what I'll do is if I have a bird that has never really flown back to the loft, or maybe it's their first time learning, sometimes I'll go grab what I call veteran birds, and I'll take them back to that location where I let the bird, I those birds go, hoping that that bird will follow because they know each other. And that's happened several times where I've gotten that process to work. Daniel (17:23.447) I see. Okay. Daniel (17:31.704) Okay, okay, that makes sense. Thank you. Thomas (17:34.231) No problem. Kevin (17:36.427) Have you seen some of these studies and things they've done where crows can communicate like they have someone in a brown jacket be mean to some crows and then they found that crows in another place know about the guy in the brown jacket. Yeah, it's sort of showing that somehow they are telling each other look out for the guy in a brown jacket. Yeah, there's some weird stuff out there. Thomas (17:53.454) Yeah Daniel (17:54.531) Really? Thomas (18:02.7) Yeah, crows are very highly intelligent creatures. And the raven and the crow, which is in the same family, I they're very intelligent. I remember going to a zoo and the crow was trained to take the money. You would hand him some money and he would go put it in the jar. It was really cool to watch. I saw that happen. So you pull out your dollar bill and come get it. Daniel (18:09.657) Thank Kevin (18:25.09) That must have been thrilling for you as a bird lover. Daniel (18:26.265) Hahaha Daniel (18:30.693) Hey. Thomas (18:31.852) Yeah. Kevin (18:33.974) That's awesome. Daniel (18:34.063) We should use crows as our ushers at offering time, at church. That would work out fine. They could just go get the... We don't need baskets, don't need plates anymore. could just... Thomas (18:37.806) Right exactly Kevin (18:38.624) Yeah, of course. Thomas (18:43.809) Exactly, they'll come get it. Kevin (18:46.293) If they ain't putting enough in, you send in the predator birds. Talons. Thomas (18:49.057) Right, Daniel (18:49.199) You So Thomas, how did this all start for you? How did you first become interested? You mentioned your great grandmother in Louisiana and kind of falling in love with nature through her, but how specifically did you become interested in pigeons and keeping pigeons, raising pigeons? How did that begin for you, please? Thomas (19:02.327) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Thomas (19:16.716) Yeah, well when I was, like I said, a little younger, when I first found my first pigeon, there was a, there was a car, complex that I used to go to and, and, on the complex, they had, the slotted roofs that I would climb up on. and I basically robbed nest of pigeons, robins. sparrows, you name it. But with the pigeon I found that, wait a minute, this bird is very interesting because it didn't leave me. The robin will fly away, the sparrow would leave, the morning dove is gone, but the pigeon would come back. And I thought that was very interesting. And so I kind of fell in love with it at that Daniel (19:46.136) Mmm. Daniel (19:51.171) Mm -hmm. Daniel (20:00.438) Mmm. Daniel (20:09.335) Wow. Yeah. Thomas (20:12.718) at that stage and I think then I was probably about 11 years old, probably around 11. And I remember the first time bringing a bird to my family and allowing them to see, okay, I'm going to bring this bird to you and I'm going to let it go and I'm going go back and get it. Because where I was keeping them at at the time, I knew it was going to fly back there. So, and this particular bird's name was Geron. So I let the bird go. Daniel (20:20.933) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Daniel (20:39.15) Yeah. Thomas (20:41.55) and I told my family, my uncles and all that, so I'm gonna go get this bird and bring it back and sure enough, I bring this bird, same bird, I let them know it's exact same bird, know. They didn't have the identification rings that I have now on there. I didn't know how to acquire that. So I used to, at my school, I know I'm probably gonna get in trouble for this, but if you notice on the, the, on the file cabinet, there used to be a number. Daniel (21:04.911) You Thomas (21:09.066) And it was a foul cabinet, there was a stucco in there that was blue and silver. It was a long little number. And I would take that aluminum number and strip it off the foul cabinet and cut it and make a ring out of it. And I put it on my bird's leg. Or bread ties. Daniel (21:27.395) Yeah, yeah. Thomas (21:30.456) You Daniel (21:32.602) Yeah. yeah. I could see bread ties too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Thomas (21:33.964) Yeah, yeah, I did that just so they can know this the same word, you know what mean? Yes Daniel (21:41.047) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (21:42.956) So no one taught you this. You kind of figured it out on your own. Thomas (21:45.28) No one taught me this. No, sir. And that's why I attributed to God because I felt like it was as much as trouble that I went through dealing with the pigeons and just nature itself, because I used to get in trouble for it. Stop climbing those trees. Leave those birds alone. Stop taking those eggs. Stop doing it. I didn't know that it was leading to something. I never knew that. Kevin (21:48.003) Is that right? That's amazing. Daniel (22:12.879) Yeah. Yeah. Thomas (22:13.23) I just knew that I had a love for him, but I didn't know where it was taking me. And it's been amazing. The journey has been amazing. Daniel (22:21.369) Yeah. Daniel (22:25.422) When those pigeons, when you first discovered those pigeons, that they would come back to you and no one else came back to you. I mean, can you talk a little bit more about that, please? Just like, what did that mean to you? Or what did that feel like? I imagine that must have felt pretty special. Thomas (22:40.374) I felt like I found a friend or some friends that I could depend on, that I can rely on, you know, and because I was always a loner type of kid, you know, I mean, I was just one of the kids I'd wander away and, you know, and I'd be into nature, you know, so you looking for me, I'm somewhere planted in a backyard with these birds. Daniel (22:45.837) Mmm. Yeah. Thomas (23:09.674) And but when I found a friendship with them, I felt like that I finally found that connection. There was a connection there with the birds. Where people would let you down, the bird didn't let me down. Daniel (23:11.341) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (23:23.629) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, thank you. Kevin (23:32.766) Ouch. Daniel (23:33.894) You Daniel (23:38.338) I, you know, and that, to our listeners and our viewers, if we encourage you to check out Thomas's videos on YouTube, that, that really, I have to say as someone who, you know, who's seen the videos, that really comes through your love and your tenderness toward the pigeons. I mean, you can tell that they mean a lot to you and that they're, yeah, I mean, that you're, they're, they're an important part of your life. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Thomas (23:56.994) Yeah. Yes. Thomas (24:03.298) Yes. Daniel (24:08.683) So, If I may ask, I think I remember you saying at some point, and correct me if I'm wrong, the phrase like, pigeons saved your life or something like that. And I maybe I'm wrong and stop me if I'm, we can cut this out if I'm misremembering that, but is that fair? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Would you, if that, would you mind saying a little bit more about that? What did, what do you mean when you say that? Thomas (24:25.194) Nah, you're good. You're good. You're good. Thomas (24:32.758) Yes, I mean growing up in the city, know, I was surrounded by temptation, you know, there's all kind of things that, you know, you can get pulled off into. And I feel like God allowed me to be surrounded by these creatures that kept me away from a lot of things that I could have gotten involved in as a youth when I was growing up. So I attributed that to saving my life. know what mean? When I think about some of my friends and what they were doing and then here I am, you know, like, there's the bird man, you know, or, you know, that's the, I actually acquired this name, you know, growing up. And, but, The birds actually were good for me. It kept me away from a lot of things. I did venture away from the birds. Obviously, I grew up. So I kind of ventured away, but that love was still there, and we reconnected. So I've been dealing with them pretty much all my life, Yes. Daniel (25:25.113) need. Daniel (25:33.829) Yeah. Daniel (25:45.529) Mm, mm. Daniel (25:49.839) That's great, that's great, thanks. Thomas (25:52.226) Yes. Daniel (25:54.945) When Kevin, you mentioned that I'm, and it's true that I am really fascinated with homing pigeons, but I don't mean to dominate the conversation. If I'm talking too much, you feel free to jump in too. Okay, okay, okay, good, good, May I ask, so a little bit about what you were saying, Thomas, just now too. You said you kind of ventured away from birds and then you went back and you kind of rediscovered them. And that's a pattern. Kevin (26:07.572) I will. I will. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thomas (26:18.424) Mm Daniel (26:24.484) I think that Kevin and I have talked about in other episodes and just in general with the topic of play and playfulness and creativity and hobbies and life or things like that. And as Kevin said before we went on, that's a no way to be dismissive of anything. We think play saves the world. It's kind of why we're doing this podcast. But that's a pattern that often seems to happen. You discover something in your childhood. Thomas (26:40.034) Sure sure. Daniel (26:54.999) And you love it, right? You just love it. means so much to you. And then you grow up a little bit and you're like, I gotta be an adult now, right? I can't do this. Cause that was childish stuff. then at some point you rediscover that there was something really profound about that. And that in some ways God, that was a gift from God, that thing in your childhood that you thought you had to distance yourself from. And you returned to it. Thomas (27:03.167) Right. Thomas (27:19.01) Yes. Right. Daniel (27:25.189) If I'm at what was there, was there, does that kind of parallel any of your experience and was there something that was a tipping point for bringing you back to the birds again? Thomas (27:35.274) Yeah, well, like I said, when I was in Piqua, the seven years that I was living there, my younger kids didn't know really about how I was so, they never knew the real connection that I had with these animals. And one day we were at a pet store and there were some doves being sold at this pet store. I think they were called ring neck doves. So, Daniel (27:54.244) Yeah. Thomas (28:04.886) they're in the pigeon family. So we ended up getting these birds and bringing them home. one of my other sons found a pigeon's egg somewhere. He got it out of some nest he found. He brought the egg home. And my doves were already breeding in the garage. So we set this egg underneath the doves. and obviously we hatched this pigeon out and raised this pigeon. So my neighbors were, this was really funny seriously but the because the house I showed you in Pickwell in the video where the garage was, when that pigeon grew up I used to raise the garage and let it out of the garage. Daniel (28:43.663) Power. Thomas (28:56.654) Back in the garage and people were like what's you know couldn't they couldn't understand what was going on this bird coming in out of garage but that's how I got back into it that was in 2007 and He brought that pigeon egg home and The whole pigeon thing started all over again, and that's where Jones racing pigeons was born at in Pickwood I met a guy there who was in my black one of my videos named Michael Anderson Daniel (29:06.425) Yeah. Daniel (29:23.364) That's great. Kevin (29:23.448) wow. Thomas (29:26.226) And I met another gentleman by the name of Dick Hughes who lived in Sydney, Ohio. And both of them were avid pigeon fanciers. Both of them had ties to racing and things like that. And that's how I got my first set of true homing pigeons was through Michael Anderson and Mr. Dick Hughes. So that's where that came in at with the homing pigeons. I went from city pigeons Daniel (29:53.571) Neat. Neat. Thomas (29:56.024) to domesticated homing pigeons and I haven't looked back since. Daniel (30:03.789) That's great. That's great. Kevin (30:06.338) So a city pigeon will not go home like a homing pigeon. What would a city pigeon do? It would just go somewhere else? Thomas (30:12.492) I didn't hear you. Say that again. Kevin (30:17.026) A city pigeon will not go home. Is that right? Thomas (30:23.426) it will. Yeah, he has the same. He has the same. Yeah, I hear you now. I hear you. He has the same ability. He has the exact same ability to home. They're they just don't have that. Some of them don't have that long distance in them. Kevin (30:25.708) Are y 'all not hearing me? Thomas (30:46.958) You have, like I was telling you before, have different blood lines of pigeons or pedigrees. And you have one that's called a Trenton pigeon, who's a bigger, heavier bird, and it's known as a 600 -maller. It's a long -distance flyer. Then you have another one, yeah, then you have another one named a Janssen pigeon. It's a Janssen. And that bird is known for speed. a lot of people like to breed the Janssen for speed, the Trenton for long distance. And then you have a Febre that's also in the middle. Long distance speed at the same time. And that's what Slater is. Slater's a Febre with a little mix of Trenton in him. But he's a Febre. Daniel (31:35.343) Mm Kevin (31:44.332) And how does one race pigeons? What's that look like? Thomas (31:46.232) How does one raise pigeons? Wow. Man, that's a... race. Race them. yes. I got you. Yeah. Well, there are various racing clubs all over the country. And with us, there's a racing club called MVS, the Miami Valley Racing Club here in Ohio. Kevin (31:51.5) No, race, like racing. Race. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Excuse me. How do you race them? Thomas (32:17.166) where you become a part of a racing club and whatever is going on, I don't know, in some other parts of I mean, some other state where you would want to do a 100 mile race back to your location, you would simply enter your bird into whatever category you were going to be in, the 100 mile or 200, 300 mile or, know, whatever you feel your bird is capable of doing. And you actually ship this bird to that location to be entered into that race you have to pay a small fee for that and on race day which is usually on the weekends they let them go they have radio chips in their leg band I should have brought one those birds in to show you that but they have radio chips in the leg band so as soon as they get to the loft it clocks them in and lets you know you know, that bird's speed, time, everything, you know what mean? They can monitor what direction he took, all that kind of stuff, you know? So that's how you do the racing part of it. So then you'd be lucky to win that thousand dollars or, you know, in some cases, much, much higher prizes are won in the racing pigeons. Kevin (33:30.668) Wow. Daniel (33:46.381) Wow, wow. That's so interesting. Kevin (33:49.453) So how did they do that before the radio bands? wonder, did they have racing pigeons and competitions? Thomas (33:54.796) Yeah, they had a clock band. So instead of a, instead of a, yeah, they had a clock band. So it's like a little rubber band and they would, they would put that little rubber band on the bird's foot. When it got home, the actual fancier had to be watching. You had to be there like stoically paying attention to this bird coming in. And when that bird would come in, you would immediately get that bird. Kevin (34:00.258) clock band. Thomas (34:23.165) and grab it and get that rubber clock band off and put it into a clock. So you put this in a clock and then you twist it and then that secures your spot in the race. Kevin (34:32.438) Wow. Kevin (34:39.747) Okay, and how do they how do they deal with the fact that? You like if you're in the competition and I'm in the competition and we live several miles away It's gonna be a different distance, right? Daniel (34:40.835) It's so interesting. Thomas (34:53.812) Right. Now, so right, so like if you, everybody has to be kind of equal in race, you you want to be fair, so I mean obviously everybody's not going to lined up perfectly, but you want to, you want it as close as possible. If I understood that question correctly, you want to be within a certain amount of miles, I guess, each other. Kevin (35:19.798) Yeah, so would they release all the Kevin (35:26.07) Right? So they don't try to release the pigeons in different locations. They'd release them all at the same time from a place that's about the same distance. Thomas (35:30.366) No. Same time, same starting point. Right. So and then as those birds take off, they all take off. I said those birds take off, they all take off together and then you'll notice they'll start breaking off into little groups, going to their perspective places, which is amazing. Kevin (35:39.37) year but they gotta find Thomas (35:55.694) It's like watching airplanes go. Yeah, it is. It's like watching airplanes fly to Atlanta, to Florida, to wherever. They kind of break off and go to their little spots. Kevin (35:57.814) That's so crazy. Daniel (36:13.667) This is reminding me of something that I'm trying to look up here. I don't know if I will be able to find it or not, but feel free to keep talking. I'm sorry. Thomas (36:16.524) Okay. Kevin (36:21.927) Well, I'll ask Thomas then about his ministry of releasing pigeons at funerals and weddings. What's that like? Thomas (36:28.718) It's been beautiful. For me it's a joy to kind of bring some type of joy to a family that's going through. And how that started was a friend of mine was shot and killed in 2011. And at that point, He was the, this particular gentleman that I grew up with was basically the catalyst for me to do what we call dove release programs. And so since 2011, I've been flying for flying these birds for families. And it's been a, it's been a joy. mean, the, the, the, the response that I get from families, It brings me to tears a lot of times. I have to sit back and kind of recollect myself because of the effect that they said it had on them about what we've done with these birds. And it's been really beautiful. Daniel (37:46.158) I, you can find several of those videos of Thomas releasing pigeons at funerals, at graveside services on his YouTube channel. And you talk about people, you know, saying what they mean to them, what that means to them. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about like, what are the themes you hear from them? Like, why do they find it? meaningful, what do they say to you about it? think it's, we think it's beautiful, yeah. Thomas (38:17.838) I think for the most part it's a release for them. For a family member that's losing a loved one it's more like, I'm holding that loved one right now. I don't want to let them go, but that bird is more of a release of a spirit, if I would, if you may rather. Daniel (38:38.413) Yeah. Daniel (38:44.974) Yeah. Thomas (38:46.222) If we look at it from a biblical standpoint, we look at the situation where the heavens opened up and a dove came down from heaven and landed on the shoulder of Jesus. And he landed as a spirit, as a dove. So those things are heartfelt because for them it's like sending that spirit back to its creator. Daniel (38:47.609) Yeah. Daniel (39:00.153) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thomas (39:16.35) And that's basically what we're doing, simulating. Even though we know the person's long gone prior to, but we're simulating again the releasing of the spirit back to the creator. That's basically what we're doing, letting that loved one go home. Daniel (39:34.93) Hmm. Kevin (39:36.822) what I love. Yeah, and what I love is that it's part of nature, as you were saying earlier, it's a very calming thing to watch birds fly or move together. And so what you're doing is just having that happen at a special moment. But if you contrast that with, say, releasing balloons or something, that's really artificial. And it's bad too, because those balloons are going to end up in a stream somewhere, some poor fish is going to choke on it. know, the releasing doves is not harming anything. Thomas (39:56.066) Right. Thomas (40:04.055) Great. Daniel (40:09.315) Right. Kevin (40:09.612) I guess they might poo a little on the cars or something, but you just wash that off. That's not a big deal, but it's natural and it's good for the environment or it's not damaging to the environment versus fireworks and things like that. People getting their fingers burned off, all that stuff. Like that's quite beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Thomas (40:10.113) Right. Thomas (40:16.534) Right. Thomas (40:21.001) Right. That's right. Thomas (40:29.23) in the right. Daniel (40:33.167) Before I, before you get too far from it, just, I just want to share the thing I was looking up. It's not super important at all, but just talking about the racing of the pigeons reminded me of a song that I heard a few years ago for the first time by a British folk group called the Unthanks. It's like the word thanks but un in front of it, the unthanks. And they have this song called The King of Rome. And it's this really stirring song, this beautiful song about this man in London who raised pigeons and takes part in this pigeon race where he sends off his beloved pigeon to Rome. Thomas (41:01.634) Okay. Daniel (41:28.417) along with all the other pigeon fanciers in London, they send their pigeons to Rome for a race back to London. And apparently the day of the race, there is this huge storm. And so all of the pigeons are lost. But then a really long period of time later, I forget how many, whether weeks or even months, Thomas (41:40.984) Hmm. Daniel (41:58.573) this man that the song is about looks up on the roof of his house and he sees his beloved pigeon. It's like the lone pigeon that's come back from this race. And he says, hail the King of Rome, you've come back. And it's a very, it's a beautiful song. It's very stirring. I can imagine that somewhat of a sense of when you see your pigeons coming back, it's got to be a beautiful feeling. Thomas (42:14.559) Wow. Thomas (42:24.087) It's amazing. It's as amazing as it is hurtful when they don't return. know what mean? So very amazing. Daniel (42:29.005) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (42:35.301) Yeah. Kevin (42:35.784) Alright, sure. Daniel (42:37.87) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (42:39.82) So there's the ones you really care about. You don't probably release them often, correct? Thomas (42:42.742) I try not to because I mean I care about every one of them and so but some of them that I really kind of get like gravitated to I don't want to lose that one I won't fly it I won't fly it in a distance I'll let them fly here but but not in a distance Kevin (42:49.42) Yeah. Kevin (43:03.746) Sure, I can imagine. Thomas (43:09.302) I had a situation yesterday where they were out flying yesterday and a hawk attacked one of them. Just right in the backyard yesterday. Yeah, I was out there so I was able to save the bird but he got a little cut on him. The hawk grabbed him but he's okay. Daniel (43:09.645) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (43:20.841) no. Thomas (43:31.79) Yeah. Well, the funny thing about I was telling some folks yesterday, I was out there and I saw the bird coming in like a dart. So as he was coming up over the roof and hit the hit the bird, it was on the side of my house. I just went out the side of the gate where it was at. And the hawk was attempting to take the bird with him. But the bird was too strong and got loose. Daniel (43:32.355) Mmm. Mmm. Kevin (43:33.615) How did you do that? How do you save a bird like that? Did you scare it off or? Thomas (44:01.65) And I was able to grab the bird and getting back to safety but scared to hawk off briefly because it didn't leave. It stayed around because it was hungry. So it stayed around looking for more of the birds. But luckily I was able to spare that one yesterday. It doesn't always happen that way. Thomas (44:24.821) Every now and then I lose some. Kevin (44:25.58) Wow. Daniel (44:32.783) You posted a video not too long ago about the aftermath of a raccoon, I know attacking some of your pigeons as well. And that was very heartbreaking too. Thomas (44:37.613) Mm -hmm. Thomas (44:41.001) Mm Yeah, yes. Daniel (44:47.938) Is that the? One of the questions we had was what's the hardest part of keeping pigeons? And I imagine, is that it? Is that the hardest part? Losing some of the birds? Thomas (44:59.054) That's definitely one of the hardest parts of keeping them. But I tell you to be honest with you, one of the worst things is keeping them cleaned up. It's a lot of work, man. Especially when you have a large flock. I got 100 birds. So you got a large flock of birds. And they go like every two minutes, it seems like. So you have to. Daniel (45:20.143) Mmm. Thomas (45:26.53) That next morning is rough, you know, got to keep the coop clean and re -clean everything. That's probably one of the roughest things. Daniel (45:32.974) You Daniel (45:39.267) I imagine that's a lot of work. Yeah, yeah. Thomas (45:40.436) It is. It is. Yes, sir. Daniel (45:45.615) That would make it hard to go on vacation too, unless you have someone you really trust to keep it clean. Thomas (45:48.206) I do have a few people that I can call on too if we go on vacation that can handle the birds for me. So I've been grateful for that too. They won't clean up though, trust me. They don't clean up. They'll feed them. They don't clean up. Daniel (46:02.937) Good, good. Kevin (46:05.75) yeah that's right Daniel (46:06.073) Good, Daniel (46:12.181) Hahaha Kevin (46:14.412) the Daniel (46:14.799) Yeah, I can imagine. Kevin (46:21.09) Well, this has been great. This is a whole other world, so that is awesome to learn about. Daniel (46:25.977) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you so much, Thomas, for this conversation. This has been wonderful. Is there anything else that you wish we had asked or talked about that we haven't talked about yet? Thomas (46:37.934) I think one of your questions was about a fun fact about pigeons. I was kind of looking over the questionnaire and I was going to pull up the rest of them but I knew one of them, there is a fact that know in a pigeon when he's flying his heart beats at 600 times per minute. That's a fun fact for you. 600 times. Daniel (46:46.295) Yes, yes. Kevin (47:01.09) But... Daniel (47:01.551) 600 times per minute. Thomas (47:02.446) And that's incredible. It's like unthinkable that a bird's heart could beat that fast. 600 times of me. That's amazing. That's completely amazing. Yes, that's one of the facts. Yeah, that's incredible. And then... Kevin (47:11.394) So that's 10 times a second. Daniel (47:11.891) my goodness. Daniel (47:15.651) That's a... That is a... Kevin (47:15.746) Right? 10 times a second. Daniel (47:19.683) That is amazing. Wow, thanks for sharing that. That's cool. That's cool. I can't imagine 10 times a second. Thomas (47:31.094) I got one more surprise here thought I'd share before we go and this is wolf Say hello to wolf Daniel (47:31.295) Wow. Wow. Daniel (47:37.26) good. Good, good, good. Daniel (47:44.247) Hey wolf. Wolf is so handsome. Wow. So how old is wolf? Kevin (47:45.237) my gosh. Look at those colors. Thomas (47:48.48) Yeah, yeah, he's a he's wolf is two years old. Kevin (47:53.098) beautiful. Thomas (47:56.716) Yep, he's a two -year -old bird also. Daniel (47:59.375) Okay, okay. Daniel (48:04.163) How long do they live typically? Thomas (48:04.878) Pigeons can live in captivity 20 years. Thomas (48:11.182) Yeah, you can get 20 years out of them, Captived. Daniel (48:12.237) Wow, that's amazing. Kevin (48:12.578) tea. Daniel (48:17.847) Okay, okay. Kevin (48:17.964) Do they know their names? I assume not, but thought I'd ask. Thomas (48:18.634) Well, you can train them to know their name, Yep, so they learn that, they learn that call, you you call them by name, they can come to you by name. Yes. Yes, they can. Yeah, they identify well, I mean, they really do. Kevin (48:27.318) Wow. Daniel (48:27.567) Okay. Okay. Kevin (48:36.709) my gosh. Daniel (48:36.912) That's great. Wow. Daniel (48:41.559) Edward's Wolf. Thomas (48:43.811) You say what? Daniel (48:46.167) And Wolf was a different kind of pigeon than Slater, right? Is that right? Thomas (48:50.572) Well, he's a different, he's still a homing pigeon, but he's not a febree. Thomas (49:01.494) Yeah, and then obviously he hasn't Daniel (49:05.431) It seemed like his beak structure looked a little bit different. Thomas (49:06.252) Yeah, he has a little bit more color, things like that, but yeah, he's pretty much the exact same. Daniel (49:12.696) Okay. Daniel (49:16.503) Okay, okay, okay, cool. You're the, you're, I'm embarrassed that I, I showed my ignorance in front of the bird man. I need to. Kevin (49:19.99) You to work on your pigeon skills, Daniel. Thomas (49:26.798) Yeah. Kevin (49:28.702) about to say that was this on a febree I kind of I've picked up on that I'm just kidding of course I I know that's some planning Daniel (49:31.855) Thank you. You're our first guest that had surprises. love that. Thanks for doing that, Thomas. That was really nice. That was really nice of you. Yeah. Thomas (49:37.24) Great. Yeah. Kevin (49:42.944) And your videos are great. love the music behind it and the way you edit them. They're really well done. it's awesome. Thomas (49:47.736) Thank you. I'm trying to put together a documentary and that's where we want to work on. So I'll keep you informed of that. Daniel (50:00.399) They're very good. So how can, how can people please do? Sorry. Kevin (50:04.002) Please do. Thomas (50:04.079) You can find me on YouTube at Jones Racing Pigeons. Daniel (50:07.267) How can people find you? Daniel (50:16.974) Yeah. And check them out to our listeners and viewers. They're just, as Kevin was saying, just really great videos. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have links and your love of the pigeons shines through, but also the love of the people you minister to through the pigeons at funerals really shines through. and, and, and you just, make them very personal and about, about your life and your story. And yeah, they're, very, they're, very meaningful. So thank you for sharing those with the world. Kevin (50:22.572) We'll put links. Yeah, we'll link it. Thomas (50:30.732) Yes. Thomas (50:43.308) Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Daniel (50:54.061) And Kevin, how can people find us? Kevin (50:56.962) They can find us at our link, is it Linktree? And that address is I'll let Daniel do that just to surprise everyone. Daniel (51:06.625) It is, it's link tree slash play saves the world, but there's a dot in between the R and the first E. So it's link tra dot E slash play saves the world. Yep. Kevin (51:16.372) Link to the E -35. Kevin (51:22.848) Yeah, or play saves the world at gmail .com. Yeah, and thanks everybody Daniel (51:28.365) Yeah. Thank you so much. And Thomas, thank you so much. This has been fantastic. Thomas (51:31.554) You're welcome. Thank you for having me again. Kevin (51:33.164) Yes. Yes. Daniel (51:38.103) All right, well, bye -bye everyone. Thomas (51:40.12) All right, we'll see you. Have a great one. Kevin (51:40.886) Bye everyone.