My name's Jordan. I am a lawyer and I deal with rules all day. You are board gamers, so you deal with rules all day. So we are talking about rules and rulebooks this week on Board Game Faith. Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring religion and spirituality and board games. We are so grateful to have everybody here today. Thank you for tuning in. My name is Daniel Hilty. Jordan Ault (00:29.52) and my name is Jordan Ault. Jordan Ault (00:35.667) My name is Jordan Holt. Either way. Kevin (00:41.388) My name's Kevin Taylor. Jordan Ault (00:43.447) Thank you very much. Long time listener, first time guest. Happy to be here. Daniel (00:43.658) And I talked over you Jordan, I'm sorry. Who are you again? Daniel (00:53.27) Jordan, welcome! We are so grateful to have you here! Daniel (01:04.03) Wow, you did a capital job at the intro recording, by the way. Thank you for doing that. That was fantastic. Jordan is on the episode today because if you have listened before, as Jordan has so faithfully listened to the show, you may remember already, we had a contest a few episodes back to celebrate a thousand followers on Instagram. And, and, Jordan is the winner of that contest. And so that means you got to record the intro and also to help guide the discussion of an episode. And Jordan, you picked, well, go ahead and say a little bit more, please, about the topic you picked for us today and why it interests you, please. Jordan Ault (01:37.475) I picked rules and rule books. And I think the, well, partly because, as I mentioned, I'm a lawyer, I deal a lot with rules. And specifically, as far as board game faith, I am a church lawyer. I do work for a lot of nonprofits and for religious clients, so I see a lot of overlap between... Um... rules and faith, rules and theology, both civil rules and laws and ecclesial rules and how different denominations kind of structure themselves. It's always kind of fascinated me. And I'm also a board game nerd and self-avowed board game lawyer, so. Jordan Ault (02:25.595) Well, I have a t-shirt. My wife got me a t-shirt that says board game lawyer. I think that counts. Kevin (02:36.503) Really? Self-avowed board game lawyer. Jordan Ault (02:37.96) I'm often the guy that is thumbing through the rule book constantly because it drives me nuts when there's an unanswered question. Yeah. And generally I love learning and teaching the rules of games. Kevin (02:42.451) I'm going to go to bed. And a board game rules lawyer means what? Daniel (03:08.783) Hey, Kevin, haven't you described yourself as kind of a rules lawyer too or not? No, is that not you? Yeah. Kevin (03:12.751) I am I am and I don't know about you Jordan, but I have to Sort of watch that impulse because it can kill the table spirits. So I try to not consult too much Depending on who's there Yeah Daniel (03:29.77) You know, I have a friend and coworker named Jewel. I'm actually going to maybe be quoting her later on. She's a pastor as well. And she had, no, a pastor, really a fantastic pastor. And she also has observed this connection between. Kevin (03:39.083) musician? Daniel (03:48.778) this overlap in the area of rules between games and religion. And I guess maybe a third circle in that Venn diagram is the world of law as well. And so yeah, you kind of bring all three of those together in your interest, Jordan. I'm excited to get to talk about rules this hour. So good topic, thank you for suggesting it. And I should probably, just for the sake of transparency, Jordan and I... Kevin (04:10.196) It is a good topic. Jordan Ault (04:16.783) my big break. Daniel (04:17.334) know each other outside of the show, we are friends, but he totally won the contest fair and square. We randomly drew names of all the entries and it just happened to be him. So anyway, we're honored. So because we're talking about rules on this episode of Board Game Faith, we thought we would do something that we haven't done in quite a while, which is return to an opening skit or an opening. game. Now, if you have listened to this episode, or our old episodes before and heard one of these skits and games and are terribly grateful that we got rid of them, please know that we're not going to be doing this every episode again, but we just thought it'd be kind of fun to bring it back as a celebration of rules. We're going to have an unnecessary rule, an unnecessary obstacle to kind of have fun with here. So we're going to start off, or we talked a little bit beforehand Jordan, Kevin and I, are we good with beginning the process here, Kevin and Jordan? Okay, so for our dear listeners, our dear listeners, here we go. First of all, we're going to pick a random scenario. There are three scenarios from which we can pick and we're going to let the die decide here. Santa's elves going through the airport, pirates at a grocery store, or cave people at a soccer game. Kevin (05:23.396) Yes. Daniel (05:47.718) And then we're going to roll a D6, a six-sided die. And depending on the number that pops up, we are going to have a certain rule for how we communicate for the next three minutes in that scenario. Number one is we can only speak in song titles. Number two, each comment has to begin with the next letter of the alphabet. Number three, we can only speak in questions. Number four, we can only speak in three word phrases. Number five, I'm really rooting for this one. We replace every letter S with the letter M. Daniel (06:20.069) And then number six, each sentence has to rhyme with the previous one in couplets, right? I guess if it was like every sentence, it would be just one rhyme for the whole conversation. Does that sound all good? Jordan Ault (06:26.639) It's something. Kevin (06:32.651) I would suggest after a minute you roll reroll and we have to get a different Communication because I'll run out of rhymes. I'll run out of time Daniel (06:38.818) I think that's genius. That's why you are the brains of this operation, Kevin. Okay, ready? And the bra and the face. And I'm the awkwardness. All right, you ready? We're gonna do it here. I'm rolling a virtual six-sided die to determine the scenario here. Kevin (06:51.023) brain. Daniel (07:06.535) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 3. Daniel (07:10.986) It's one, so we are Santa's elves using an airport. All right, we are Santa's elves using an airport. And here is our first communication rule. Jordan Ault (07:23.891) I think we're good. Daniel (07:26.334) It's number two. So each comment has to begin with the next letter of the alphabet. Are we ready? Kevin (07:36.143) We're ready. Daniel (07:37.386) Okay, here we go. That's, and I'll just kind of shout out the new rule after a minute comes, okay? So the rest of you all can be in character if you want to, I'll try to too. Okay, here we go. Jordan Ault (07:50.715) Can we just get to the gate already? Kevin (07:53.967) Always late, always late, seems like we're always late. Daniel (07:58.634) Boy oh boy, I'm tired of being so late. Why can't we be on time once? Kevin (08:08.407) Dang it, I just lost my wheeled luggage in the gutter. Daniel (08:14.406) Every time, every time, Elf, Elf-o, McElf-fington? Jordan Ault (08:14.643) Slight looks like it's delayed, LFO, McElphington. Kevin (08:21.944) Thanks for watching! That was a double E by the way. Daniel (08:34.923) Gosh, what are we gonna do now? Jordan Ault (08:34.964) I don't know about that. Kevin (08:40.323) As always, Hamburgers is open. Let's go get a double hamburger. Jordan Ault (08:47.792) What's the rule again? Daniel (08:51.554) Change of rules. Only speaking questions. You don't like hamburgers? Kevin (08:54.127) Already been a minute? It's only been a... It's already been a minute? Jordan Ault (09:00.068) Where do we go from here? Daniel (09:04.802) Did someone say we can only speak in questions? Kevin (09:08.274) It's gone better people Jordan Ault (09:15.399) time until this minute is up! Kevin (09:17.975) who will save our souls that we can't save our own? Jewel. Daniel (09:22.27) Is there any way to talking questions without rephrasing statements as questions? Jordan Ault (09:28.123) What are we doing here? Kevin (09:28.239) Thanks for watching! Daniel (09:33.346) Does my computer screen say 19 seconds? Jordan Ault (09:35.151) What's that you said about hamburgers? Kevin (09:37.615) It's an airplane anyway. Daniel (09:38.958) Hahaha Daniel (09:44.563) And where are we going? Daniel (09:52.727) Change of rules. Daniel (09:58.114) We already have this one. Do it again. We could only speak in three word phrases starting now. Jordan Ault (10:02.107) Need more hamburger. Daniel (10:10.242) Me still hungry! Kevin (10:13.507) Hamburger was small. Jordan Ault (10:16.947) Still in airport? I guess it didn't have to be a question. Still in airport. Kevin (10:22.135) South Pole, ahoy. Daniel (10:22.383) Is there time? Kevin (10:25.603) There is time. South Pole ahoy. Jordan Ault (10:33.623) All aboard, everyone. Kevin (10:36.662) We all sound like Yoda. Daniel (10:39.65) Santa in South? Kevin (10:43.775) Expedition new franchise. Daniel (10:47.31) Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Jordan Ault (10:51.567) Elfo, Elfington. Kevin (10:51.903) Even elf one elf one elf one... Today? Daniel (11:01.547) Uh... what's my name? Jordan Ault (11:04.439) I have to say, I'm doing this from our firm's St. Louis office. I have a visiting attorney's office and it's all glass front and I have been watching people walk by and stare in at me like this. So a really great introduction to our St. Louis space here. Kevin (11:08.771) Real Slim Shady? Daniel (11:08.846) Okay. Alright, that's it. That was the end. That was the end. That was brilliant. It was brilliant. Kevin (11:17.871) That was weird. Jordan Ault (11:25.143) Oh no, I think there's going to be some really good questions and conversations to come from Daniel (11:36.772) I hope we don't get you in trouble. I'm sorry. Kevin (11:43.247) There's a security guard behind you, by the way, Jordan. Daniel (11:43.263) Okay, okay. Please blame us if, let us take the heat if we need to. Daniel (11:53.706) All right, so rule books, let's talk rule books. Kevin (11:53.923) rulebooks. Kevin (11:57.779) Are they cool? That's three words and a question. Well, no, I guess I'd have to drop out of the thing. Daniel (12:00.394) Are rulebooks... Yeah, are rulebooks cool? Let's take a roundtable vote. So we should say that a lot of our conversation today is based around suggestions that Jordan had for our discussion of rulebook and religion and faith and life and ministry. And the first one, and Kevin helped to draw all that together as well, is a roundtable vote. So what is our relationship? to rule books? Do we do we prefer a the intense pre read? B, read as you attempt to play? C, watch YouTube? D, have someone teach you? Or E, dial 1-800-RULES-LOYER? So what do you all think? Kevin, what about you? Where are you on that on that? Kevin (12:50.611) I'm gonna watch YouTube and a little bit of read as I play. I think it's hard for me to imagine the rules in reality. So I need to see it in a physical. Daniel (12:52.811) Here at Watch YouTube. Kevin (13:07.935) manifestation either by YouTube somebody's showing you or Experimenting trying to play with you know to play two imaginary players as you know that trick and so Trying to consult the rules and going back and forth between that. So yeah, but I think I need to see the physical stuff So what about you Jordan? Jordan Ault (13:16.479) I am the opposite. I need to do the intense pre-read. And I like, there are some amazing folks out there on YouTube that will do walkthroughs or rule explanations, but I can't get to that until I've read it. But I'm with you. Sometimes as I'm reading it, I need to actually sit down and get stuff out of the box and feel it and touch it and look at it so I know when they. Daniel (13:18.858) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (13:26.679) Yeah, yeah. Jordan Ault (13:40.883) I mentioned bonus cards versus action cards. I can see what they look like. But I have to do that read through first. Otherwise, it just doesn't click for me. Jordan Ault (14:03.555) No, typically I'll get the rule book out and I'll set aside some time and just read through. And then if I'm going to teach a game, so many games now have solo mode. If I'm going to teach a big game, I will read through it, I'll watch a video if I need to, and then I will play through it solo if I can before I'm going to do a teach, especially for bigger, heavier games where I know people are going to be committing a couple hours. I want to make sure that I understand. Kevin (14:05.999) So what would be your approach? Would it be get the rule book and set everything out and then kind of, or would you even read it before you buy it, like online? Have you ever done that kind of thing? Jordan Ault (14:32.228) But yeah, sometimes you read and I just need to sit down at the table with the box and feel and actually touch everything and move it around the board to help understand that. Kevin (14:36.693) Mm-hmm. Daniel (14:59.65) There's something about, yeah, I think about grounding the theory and the ideas into physical objects and environments that can be reinforcing of the learning process for a lot of folks. Kevin (15:14.963) For me, I think it's almost necessary. It's really hard for me to just read the rulebook. I just get kind of lost So it's only once I understand the game then I go back to the rulebook and it makes complete sense generally Yeah, what about you Daniel? Jordan Ault (15:15.175) Makes sense. Daniel (15:32.49) Yeah, I think I'm maybe a little bit more like Jordan, but a little bit of a kind of both of it. Yeah, I do have to read through the instruction manual first. I enjoy just kind of sitting down and reading through the instruction manual. But yes, but then the next step is sitting down with the instruction manual and with. a table with the game out in front of it at a table and kind of playing it so low or playing, you know, two, two players to, you know, against myself. And Kevin (15:58.927) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:08.059) Have you ever known the person they can kind of almost guess the rules? It's a really weird type of intelligence I've observed and it's the kind of intelligence where someone can figure out how something works like hardware wise like your car is Broken or the sinks broken and they immediately can intuit What's going on and it's real interesting and some people can do that with board games because I need to go find the rules because I can't you know, I need to know the rules but they can sort of like, well, that can't be true because it would break the game. And then I realized, yeah, you're totally right. But it's weird how they can grasp it. Just they can kind of see the game. If you... Jordan Ault (16:38.915) I think we all get better at it as you play. I think if I'm teaching a game, teaching people who have played for years, it's completely different than teaching somebody new. And frankly, sometimes I go back to games that I played a few years ago when I was starting in the hobby, and I thought, oh, this just seems so complicated. And I pick it up now, and it's not, just because I think you pick up these mechanisms and figure out the iconography that goes along with a lot of games. Daniel (16:39.943) Hmm. Daniel (16:46.858) That is a certain kind of special intelligence, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Daniel (16:55.691) Yeah. Daniel (17:14.358) Yeah. Kevin (17:15.124) Right Daniel (17:22.114) That's a good point, yeah. Jordan Ault (17:23.684) Uh. Kevin (17:23.767) Yeah, there are a lot of cues that you pick up and remixes of things. Yeah. What's a game that was that for you, Jordan? That you went back to and you're like, oh, this makes. For me, it was through the ages. We were just so stumped by that game. Jordan Ault (17:28.467) I've never played that one. One of the first, well actually, I'm gonna give you a full circle moment. One of the first games that Daniel ever taught me was Roll for the Galaxy. Daniel (17:29.601) I'm Jordan Ault (17:41.363) And I remember it was one of the first games and it was wonderful because you got to roll these multicolor dice and everything. But it was a whole lot when you're not used to, I remembered he said he got the expansion. And at that point I was thinking, what the heck is an expansion? How quickly we forget. And this past week, Kevin (17:44.383) It's good. Jordan Ault (18:01.515) I learned Race for the Galaxy, and I remember thinking back to Roll for the Galaxy and the iconography and thinking, what is going on? And playing Race for the Galaxy just picked it up like that. Because they're similar games, cards versus dice, but I kind of had the sense of here's how action selection works, and here's how multi-use cards work, and here is generally how I've seen this iconography in other games. Daniel (18:27.273) Mm-hmm. Kevin (18:37.859) Mm-hmm. Daniel (18:43.998) Yeah, yeah, yeah. The more you play games, the more you can have a vocabulary of just certain, certain assumptions and mechanisms that help immensely in learning, in learning others. Yeah, I have fond memories of that, of that role for the galaxy game too. That was, that was, that was good. So do people, so do you like rule books as a genre? Jordan Ault (18:59.243) love them or hate them. A well-written rule book where you can just pick it up and kind of figure out where the designer was going and visualize the game is... it just sings. But boy, when you get a stinker, I feel like a bad rule book can just ruin the game. Daniel (19:13.662) I think... Yeah. Daniel (19:24.767) Yeah, yeah. Jordan Ault (19:29.413) idea. Kevin (19:33.064) Uh oh. Jordan Ault (19:34.806) Should we panic? Daniel (19:35.694) Oh, and it looks like we lost Kevin here. Did you lose Kevin on your end too, Jordan? Okay. Jordan Ault (19:37.94) Thank you. Daniel (19:46.958) I'll see you if you come. Daniel (19:52.479) I think we should. I think that's probably the best thing to do. Here he comes. Hey, Kevin. Kevin (19:59.448) Just said I lost internet, that was weird. Daniel (20:02.998) You know, it's funny, for a while there, it kind of froze with just you looking straight on. And I wasn't sure whether you were frozen or whether you were just like deep in thought and pondering the, by the way, I'm okay not including that skit in the final shit, but whatever you all think is fine. Well, that's fine, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (20:03.425) Sorry. Kevin (20:14.016) Red light, green light, squid games. Jordan Ault (20:15.015) If you leave it in, you have to leave in the comment about Daniel saying, I'm not including that. Kevin (20:24.258) We'll see, we'll see how it will give it a viewing. I enjoyed it. Daniel (20:33.824) Hahaha Kevin (20:34.424) Hehehehe Jordan Ault (20:36.627) how well written, if it uses visuals, so you can kind of see the game coming together. There are examples where you can pick up the rule book and read it and then feel like, oh, I could sit down and play this game. And the worst is when you read a rule book and you finish it up and then you set the game up in front of you and you don't know what to do. Like you don't even know what the first step is. Daniel (20:39.04) So Jordan, you were saying that, yeah, so you were saying that whether you like a rulebook or not depends on really, it depends a lot on how well written the rulebook is. Jordan Ault (21:01.679) which can be really, really frustrating, particularly if it's a great game and it's just kind of a barrier to entry. Kevin (21:12.556) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:17.965) Yeah. Daniel (21:22.974) Yeah, yeah. Like a good, that seems to be, I think, an important aspect of well-written rules is it gives you a sense of. It's especially focused on the first play of a game, you know, like good rules seem to have that in mind like, you know What do you what should you do in your first play? When I was trying to think about like good examples of rule books For this episode that those are the ones that came into my mind the ones that you know, especially focus a lot of time on You're very first time at the table, what you should do sort of in. What are some good, yeah, speaking of which, like, what are some good examples of rule books that you all have found? Kevin (22:08.632) The Frostpunk game, which is so great. They hired the gaming rules video YouTuber. Have you seen that guy, Paul something? He did the rule and you would hope Paul something, something. I think he used to be an elf. Then he got into poor gaming. He got on a flight to England and then stayed. Paul Grogan? Daniel (22:16.826) Oh yeah, who is that? Oh yeah, Paul. Yeah, or that, yeah, oh yeah, Paul. Kevin (22:37.268) I don't know why I'm remembering this. Anyway, gaming rules and you would hope he'd have a good rule book and he really does. So he did that rule book and, um, just lots of spacing, lots of clear sections. And I find when I have a rules lawyer moment, I can generally figure out where it must be. Cause the problem I run into the bad rule books, like for mage night, it's in there. It's just not where you think it's going to be. Daniel (22:38.082) That sounds right. Kevin (23:04.524) That the bit about movement is not in the section with movement, but about player setup. Like, they put it in a place that I guess it made sense to the designer, but it doesn't make sense to the larger audience, where they put it. And it's interesting, certain people get a reputation for doing bad rulebooks. So the Vlada guy with Czech games, he's kind of, I think... Daniel (23:04.996) Mm-hmm. Daniel (23:10.294) Right. Daniel (23:19.883) Right. Daniel (23:26.853) Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:32.704) Known for and that's bad. That is kind of subjective, but it but it seems like many people are frustrated by them. Jordan Ault (23:58.063) Mage Knight did me in. It was one of the first big games that I bought, and it took me forever to learn it. I loved it. And then a month or two passed, and I picked it up again. And I'm like, I need to reread the rule book. And I stared at it, and I just thought, I can't. I can't do this a second time. I came up with some recent examples of really, really good rule books. If you'd like to. Daniel (24:00.514) Hmm. Kevin (24:00.82) And he kind of says, yeah, people don't like my rule books, but whatever. He's got a Teflon skin on it, which is very cool to me. So you've, you've had that experience, Jordan. Daniel (24:08.979) Mm-hmm. Jordan Ault (24:25.103) So recently I picked up Final Girl. I don't know if you have seen that. It is a solo only game. Have you played it? It's, I think it's fantastic. And I am a big fan of. Yeah, see I love, I love horror movies and kind of slasher 80s. So it was just fantastic. But I wrote it down and it was so good. There's a page towards the end. Daniel (24:36.682) Oh yeah, like what? Kevin (24:45.048) That's a great little game. Kevin (24:50.556) I do too, it's very different from anything else. Jordan Ault (24:52.707) So this is a game that gets bigger as you add on these, not chapters, but I forget what they're called, episodes or something. And they have a section in the rule book on game ambiguity. And it says, it can happen from time to time that something may not be covered in the rules. There's a timing question, strange card interaction, a tie. So apply one of the following. And it gives you examples. You can play using the rule of infinite evil. Kevin (24:57.836) Yep, yep, me too, yeah. Jordan Ault (25:18.223) in which you resolve in such a way that results in the worst outcome to you. The rule of abject realism, which is the most realistic or thematic outcome, or the rule of never-ending hilarity, which resolves the issue with the funniest outcome. And I know this is so lonely, so you're not grappling with other people, but I just thought, how great for a designer to put in there, yeah, you're not always going to have an answer, here's how you should resolve it. I thought that was brilliant. Kevin (25:50.977) So good. Jordan Ault (25:57.181) Absolutely. Daniel (26:01.71) Hmm. Kevin (26:01.996) Right. Horror and comedy are awesome are often neighbors. So could go one way or the other Yeah, I know that's a great game Yeah, because you have to get the base and it looks like a V VHS player You get the core box and then you buy little chapters or little different movie scenarios and it's really cool idea Jordan Ault (26:15.475) It's a brilliant system. Kevin (26:31.272) Yep, and it's one that I think I had a hard time learning it at first. I found there were some things It seemed counterintuitive, but once I got it I can kind of pick it up and go back. Whereas as you said mage night It's like I don't know you have to get a crash course again It's very funky Daniel (26:52.694) It's interesting. I haven't played that at all, but I mean, the, it sounds, it sounds like a fascinating game, but I also love that approach at the end of the rule book. I mean, it brings up the questions of about like. Daniel (27:07.03) There are the rules, and then there are like the rules, like beyond the rules, right? Like there are the rules, and then it's about specific scenarios in a game and moments in a game, but then there are the rules about how do we guide those moments when the rules don't apply. You know, does that kind of make sense? It's... Jordan Ault (27:26.931) That's why I have a job, because there are only so many written rules, and that it all comes down to interpretation. And how do you apply this rule to this set of facts when they don't really add up all the time? That's what keeps a lot of us employed is that there's always some ambiguity. There's always some, you're advocating for your cause as to how to apply the rules to your facts scenario. Which I think we do in board games too. Kevin (27:34.26) Right, or something broken appears. Daniel (27:36.718) Almost like a, like a meta rule. Daniel (27:47.05) Mmm. Kevin (27:47.116) Hmm. Daniel (28:03.768) Mmm. Daniel (28:08.93) How, we're going a little bit off script here, but I wonder, I'd be interested in your all's reflections on what are the differences between the rules that we encounter in board games, the rules that we encounter in the legal system and the rules that we encounter in a life of faith. What are, do we approach those differently? And. Jordan Ault (28:27.855) I can tell you, I've spent the last few years working through some really difficult questions, including, you know, I don't think a potential, an actual schism and a denomination over a lot of tricky issues. And as I'm reading through that, the idea of the rules of infinite evil, abject realism, and never-ending hilarity aren't that off from how people interpret scripture sometimes. Daniel (28:37.494) I'm going off script here. Jordan Ault (28:53.307) Maybe that's a bit reductionist, but people bring their own rules for how to interpret rules to the table all the time in their faith life. Kevin (29:03.48) That's funny. Kevin (29:09.6) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:14.987) Right, right. Right, right. Kevin (29:20.104) Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. It seems like there's a lot of different cultures and personalities. Some people just are not going to follow the rules. They just hate rules. And if you tell them you're supposed to do X, they'll do Y. And other people are very rules oriented and take real comfort from them. And I guess I see that in terms of how people drive, you know, and how they approach rules. And sometimes they're just lucky that they haven't gotten caught doing whatever. Orthodox Judaism we learned from our guest Daniel, right, the board game co. That's a very regimented approach to life, and he even told us that there is a phrase in the Orthodox Jewish community of, ask your local rabbi? Is that what it was? There's an acronym he told us. I'd have to go back and look. Daniel (30:10.298) Mm hmm. Something like that, yeah. Kevin (30:16.296) because basically that rabbi there in the local community functions as a lawyer. So they interpret, because it came up with, would playing games break the Sabbath? And he said it depends on the rabbi's ruling. So they recognize multiple rabbis and also the authority of the rabbi to interpret a gray area. But that's just Orthodox Judaism, you know, Reform Jews would be like, what? And we just fly it right there because they're not operating like that. Daniel (30:21.774) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:48.462) It Daniel (30:52.138) It strikes me how much of what we call rules both for, yeah, I mean, in faith traditions like Orthodox Judaism and in other traditions as well, and in games and in the world of law comes down to this kind of... Daniel (31:16.958) this kind of assumption that something has been set to paper, right? Some words have been put on paper and that gives it a special kind of authority, right? I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, that's... You look at a game and you say, well, this is how to play the game. Why? Because it's on the paper, right? And well, you broke the law. Why is this a law? Well, it's because it's on paper, you know? And that can be an approach to faith, though I have to admit probably as the years have gone on. of those three areas, those are probably the areas where I'm less into, what does it say on the paper? I don't know. Why is that about us human beings that we... Does that strike either of you as strange that we just give extra authority to some words because somebody wrote it on a piece of paper? Jordan Ault (31:58.363) You need some guidelines. You need some rules, right, for a society to function, for a religion to function, for a game in the magic circle to function, right? You need at least some guidelines. And I think seeing something on paper is, well, I think it's more than it's just on paper. It's like for me, to look at a board game. Daniel (32:14.998) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (32:23.341) Yeah. Jordan Ault (32:23.663) And there's a question of, well, how are we going to do it? Well, we're going to do it how it's written in the manual. A lot of that is because somebody put a lot of time and effort into this game and play-tested it. And this is how they put it together. I want to honor how they put it together. Now, I may house rule it later on if I think, yeah, that didn't work for me. But no wonder it's that, you know, I think that's. what we do with the law. People are constantly talking about, well, the founding fathers, this, that, or the other. And in theology, I think, oftentimes it's the same way. There's not as much an understanding of who put it on paper or how it was put on paper, but it's the intent of some sort of creator, whether it be a game designer or a theological one. Daniel (32:51.054) Mm-hmm. Right. Daniel (32:56.427) Yeah. Daniel (33:23.767) Mm. Kevin (33:24.664) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's got me thinking the paper is a process of capturing something in a moment of time, right? So this became authoritative and so the Second Amendment in the United States, it protected the right to bear arms, but the question then becomes it's a very different world in 2023 versus muskets of the 18th century. So time has changed potentially how we understand that law. And that's where things get tricky and even reminds me of final girl like final girl is admitting There will be future Scenarios that come out that may break the core box in ways they didn't intend so they're trying to build in this kind of Way to adapt Uh, but some things aren't really adaptable the idea that we should have control over our bodies to some degree right like The extent of that gets debated, but there are certain iron-clad rules. Do not murder an innocent human being. You know, there's some that seem somewhat timeless, but most of everything is time-bound, and then it gets tricky, and that's why you have to ask your local rabbi. Because the rules of the laws of Moses were invented before electricity. So then now your refrigerator has to have a Sabbath mode, because they didn't have refrigerators back then. Like, and that's just being Orthodox Jew in the Daniel (34:42.83) Hmm. Kevin (34:51.288) 21st century, the Methodist said. So I mean, I'm an outsider, but yeah, it's part of trying to, I don't know. I think I'm with Jordan. They're not, it didn't surprise me as much, but sometimes the laws and the rules are bad or tricky or they don't apply anymore. Daniel (35:03.554) So what- Daniel (35:13.066) Yeah. So when, when do we, when do we make the decision to in a game to house rule a rule or then I guess maybe the follow up question is that when do we make, when do we make a decision in the larger world to reinterpret a religious law or to change a law in some sort of legal code, but to start with games. When do we decide to house rule a rule? Jordan Ault (35:31.955) My biggest house, yeah. My biggest house rule. My daughter, Jo, and I played through Harry Potter, Hogwarts Battle, which is a cooperative deck building game. And it's actually an incredibly good game. It's a pretty simple deck builder, but it's great. And you play through all seven years of Hogwarts, and the first game or two or three are pretty simple. And then as you go, the bosses get bigger. Daniel (35:45.836) What gives us authority for that? Yeah. Jordan Ault (36:01.519) and there are more of them and it's tougher. And so I think you're starting the game with two or three bad guys out, maybe two. And if you draw two bad guys from year seven, game over. I mean, good luck. It's a terrible draw. I don't think you'll be able to survive. If you draw two bad guys from year one or year two, it's gonna be really, really easy. Well, we played a few times and just had bad luck in drawing the worst of the worst bad guys out. front and it was not fun at all. I mean we just floundered and then lost pretty quick and we tried it a couple times and after two or three times I said why don't we do this why don't we draw if we don't like it we can draw again and if we don't like it we can draw again we got three draws and we played and eventually won and by the time you get to year seven you're in for like an hour and a half two-hour game and playing at the time she was nine years old that's a lot of time so I wanted to make sure if we're gonna devote that Daniel (36:46.377) Hmm. Jordan Ault (37:02.263) it needed to be a fair fight and we needed to be, you know, setting ourselves up to have fun. I think for me, I felt like, okay, that's still honoring the game. It's just almost kind of creating a difficulty level. We're still gonna fight those bad guys. They're likely just gonna come later in the game while we got better cards. And I think we did it because it made the game infinitely more fun. We weren't just dying immediately every single time, which gets old after. Kevin (37:03.052) Hmm. Daniel (37:13.11) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (37:21.234) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (37:30.121) Mm-hmm. Daniel (37:41.346) Yeah. Jordan Ault (37:41.967) And if I was playing with another 40-year-old, I don't know if I would do that. But playing with a nine-year-old, I thought, okay, this is bringing it to the audience in the way that I think the designer would appreciate. And more importantly, we as the players appreciate. Daniel (37:47.624) So you kind of house rule if it honors the spirit of the game in a way. Daniel (38:00.329) Mmm. Kevin (38:01.632) Right. Daniel (38:13.975) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (38:14.836) Yeah, I think it's rooted in experience that a group of people have played it enough that they have said, we think this fixes something or covers a hole. So I like that, Jordan, that you've based on repeated plays, you saw a problem and you addressed it and it made it more fun. I know Daniel's done that with TELESTRATIONS, that y'all go really off script because you've played it so much, you actually kind of invented your own version of TELESTRATIONS, which is... surreal just what's in my brain. And I probably have not played a set game enough to have to house rule it, to be honest. Because of changing groups and changing game addictions. Right, buying different games, but... Daniel (38:45.174) Right. Yeah. We house rule. Daniel (38:57.178) Mm, mm, yeah. Daniel (39:02.89) Right, right, right. Kind of like, what do they say that about, like if you're learning music, you gotta learn the scales well enough before you can improvise and go get away from the scales. It's important to learn the game first before, maybe before deciding how to house rule it. So yeah, so being aware of the... Of the... Kevin (39:18.049) Mm-hmm. Kevin (39:26.421) Right. Daniel (39:31.21) of the people who are involved in it and where they are being sensitive to the spirit of the game. What's it? Kevin (39:36.496) And I think agreeing is a group. So it's not just you, but the group is like, we're going to live with, don't you think this would make it better? Daniel (39:43.894) Right. Yeah. So do we have a similar process in, in matters of faith or, or the, or law? Yeah. Jordan Ault (39:54.067) I think more than that, individuals... Kevin (39:55.04) Yeah, absolutely. I think the church has a lot of authority as a group to make changes. Jordan Ault (39:59.279) you know, 10 people can read the same text, the same scripture 10 different ways. And I think sometimes maybe that's the point of scripture. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I have no qualifications to state that. Yeah, but I do think... Daniel (40:03.852) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:08.021) Um. Daniel (40:19.275) Yeah. Jordan Ault (40:20.087) Like you said, Daniel, you need to learn the game first. And once you get a sense of the work as a whole, the scripture as a whole, whatever the faith background is, whatever the religious text is as a whole, you can use that to a specific piece of religious text, a specific scripture, and say, oh, I read it this way. But if I consider all of the teachings of Kevin (40:26.548) Yeah, it's poetry and yeah. Jordan Ault (40:48.743) Jesus Christ or whoever it might be. Oh, well, based on that, this is how I understand it. Daniel (40:56.649) Mm-hmm. Daniel (41:12.834) Mm-hmm. This idea of like scripture interprets scripture or the tradition or kind of the whole of... the whole of the tradition interprets any particular part of the tradition. Kevin (41:24.788) Right. Well, here's a real-life example. As I look at the Bible, there are hints that women can have religious leadership, but it's not boldly stated, correct? I mean, you can find glimmers. You have Deborah as a judge. You... there are some lists in the New Testament of women that seem to have a special role, but the idea that a woman could be a pastor or bishop is not explicitly stated. But United Methodist Church have said, you know, while it's not stated, this is what we believe, that women can be pastors. And other denominations disagree, like Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention. And that's fine, it's a big world, but that's an example of where You could almost argue that's a house rule, which I don't mean to make it seem. unimportant, but you know, I think the church and the Holy Spirit can lead people to... step out in new directions. That we're not stuck with just the rules. If we're stuck with the rules, I mean, we'd still be, we would live under a monarchy, let's say, because that's all the Bible imagines is monarchies. Because that's, because again, it's a slip of time, right? It's something caught in time. Daniel (42:36.493) Yeah. Daniel (42:40.598) Yeah. Daniel (42:49.763) And in some ways, that example, I mean, it's almost kind of. Daniel (42:56.834) Yes, in some ways it's kind of changing the rules, but it's, but it's, it's almost like a changing of the rules to like preserve a deeper rule, you know what I mean? Kind of like to be faithful to an older rule. I keep finding myself thinking about, I mentioned my friend, Jewel, earlier, who's a pastor as well, and we work together at the church where I am right now, and we had a series recently on play and faith, and she had this really neat series sermon about rules. religion and games and such. And I think she had this great insight on like, really the rules are in, the rules are in service to the game, right? And not the other way around. And I think about, Jesus kind of talked about things like this as well. You know, he said like, Sabbath is in service to humankind and not the other way around, you know, the rules of Sabbath. Jordan Ault (44:02.547) It's the one with the stick where you hit the ball and you run around the bases. Daniel (44:04.026) And the example she gave, which is a great example, and I won't represent it very well because I don't know enough about sports ball, but it was about baseball, right? And so apparently... Jordan Ault (44:16.562) score would be. Daniel (44:19.27) It is, okay, yes, I think that's right. You do clockwise, that's metric though. That's metric, yeah. Yeah, in the American, the. Kevin (44:20.244) Right. In clockwise, wait, or counterclockwise. Clockwise. Right. Yeah, I remember when I played baseball, I ran to third base in home and I thought I'd won the game. I didn't. Jordan Ault (44:32.391) House rules. Daniel (44:38.579) I would celebrate you and welcome you and that's the winning in my book. Yeah, yeah. But she gave this example which is great and I can't remember all the details, but basically... Kevin (44:41.024) Like, why can't I choose? Kevin (44:47.276) That's for real. Daniel (44:56.43) of how the rules of professional baseball have changed over the last century or whatever. And including up until like this last year, I guess there was some rule about, you know, the pitcher not holding onto the ball for too long, whatever. And, but you know, but her point was you change the rules to make baseball more baseball, right? Like to make it even more baseball-y, you know? And I kind of think about that with, you know, in terms of as rules of faith evolve and grow. You know, in some ways, oh yeah, it's this kind of novel new thing, but in some ways it can be seen as an attempt to... make the core of faith even more about faith. You know, like it's to preserve something that in some ways the rules can take away from over time if the rules themselves don't adapt because then the rules, then it becomes about the rules. It doesn't become about what the rules are trying to express. I don't know, does that make sense or not? Jordan Ault (45:46.227) But it seems to me those in my life that are very resistant to religion or very, have a just bristle at the idea of religion, it's often because they see religion as a set of rules and nothing more than that. It is a group of people enforcing what they have seen as the rules of the game on themselves or on other people. And I think religion is a lot more than that, of course, but I think it that ties into what you're saying, Daniel, that the rules can't be the rules just because we need rules. The rules need to be there to support the game, to support how we operate as a society, to support what we do as a denomination, as a religion. They can't be the center of things. I'm sure there are any number of people that would disagree with that, but kind of what I've taken from it. Daniel (46:54.546) Yeah, yeah. They're not the end. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Kevin (47:02.688) Yeah. Right. And all rules have to be open to some new vision or modification. And that's why we have amendments to the U.S. Constitution, right? It didn't just pop out fully, but if they had to keep amending and changing a few bits here and there. So, yeah. Yeah. And I think you're right, Daniel, that the vision of a lot of things that we take for granted in the 21st century. and the West, the seeds are there in the tradition and the Bible, but they may not be directly stated. So you can say, well, you know, following a... pure intent that was not obvious to people 2,000 years ago because of the time and place they lived. Daniel (47:50.858) Yeah, right, right. But in some ways, it's an attempt to. Kevin (47:53.001) So yeah. Daniel (47:58.166) The alteration of the rules is an attempt to. Daniel (48:05.142) like, preserve, ironically to preserve something kind of beautiful and good, even though it may not look like that on the surface. Yeah. Kevin (48:09.781) Yeah. Yes, because in the New Testament Paul forbids women from speaking in church, and we can just kind of say, well, that's a bad rule. And that's where I'm not a real, you know, I don't see that all of Scripture has the same authority. That's just kind of incomprehensible to me. Kevin (48:33.888) Like, it's in there, yes, but it's not... It's not... If it's your guiding light, you've got a lot of problems in your life, in my opinion. Or say a genealogy, you know. I love number 2015! I live my life by it. I always feel bad for the Bible translator, guys. Like, you get to translate the NRSV. Yay! What... Which one? Numbers. Oh... Jordan Ault (48:47.623) As I see it, looking in the Christian tradition, I look at the Bible and I see there are guides in there similar to Final Girl's rules about game ambiguity. And I'm thinking about my account where it says, well, what is required? What do you do if this isn't clear? And it's to do justice and love mercy. Daniel (48:50.034) I have that on my bumper sticker. Yes. Jordan Ault (49:13.823) and walk humbly with your God. And if you look through scripture, there are guideposts there that are kind of doing the same thing that the designers of Final Curl are doing, to say... Daniel (49:25.742) kindness and walk humbly with your God. Yeah. Jordan Ault (49:25.763) Well, it would have been better had I got Micah correct. But no, I think there's something there. In Methodism, you have the Wesleyan quadrilateral and all these other things, which are basically ways of saying, what do we do when there's ambiguities? What do we do if we disagree about something or if we're not sure how to apply the rule to a specific fact pattern or a question that comes up? And I think that's what I see people missing sometimes, is that that's the way. Kevin (49:27.16) Mm-hmm. Kevin (49:34.528) Yeah, you're right. Oh, that's brilliant. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (49:36.397) Yeah. It is really good. Kevin (49:44.728) Close enough. Yeah. Jordan Ault (49:55.555) A lot of scripture and language from other faith traditions are riddled with those guide posts to say, it's not always going to be clear, but here's what you should do. Daniel (50:04.191) Right, right. Jordan Ault (50:08.914) others. Kevin (50:20.66) Right, right. Here's the spirit of the rules and here's kind of a self, a way to self-critique almost. Interesting. Daniel (50:20.828) Yeah. Daniel (50:31.342) Or like Jesus saying the most important thing is to love God and love your neighbor and everything else is kind of hangs on that, you know, as a lens. Right. Yeah. Jordan Ault (50:36.243) It's not quite the same as does the bad guy slaughter two campers or just one. But still, it helps you figure out how to move forward. Kevin (50:39.56) Right, which wasn't original to him, like that's in the Old Testament actually, so he was just repeating a bedrock type teaching. Daniel (50:48.67) Yeah. So are there. Kevin (51:03.039) That's right. Daniel and the best bits in Final Girl is at the very end, there's a surprise moment for either you or the villain, whoever's about to die, whether they get to come back or not, which is a great, it's just like in the horror movies where you think the bad guy's dead and then they rise up, you know, so yeah, it's such a really cool. So you don't really know they're dead till you f***. Daniel (51:05.462) Are there any? Jordan Ault (51:07.695) It's so good. Daniel (51:15.414) Oh. Daniel (51:18.562) That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Is it completely random? Jordan Ault (51:22.235) Yeah. So when you think you've killed the serial killer and then the camera's panning out and then they sit up from behind the couch or something like that, and it's just that moment. Kevin (51:26.014) Yes. Daniel (51:26.89) It's completely random who gets to come back. That's pretty cool. Kevin (51:28.732) I forget Jordan, there's like 12 tokens and three of them have a comeback and you flip them over so you don't know which one they're going to get till it's revealed. Whether they have one more. Daniel (51:36.738) That's awesome. Kevin (51:44.784) Exactly. Yeah. And there's one for the hero or heroine too, that you have that possibility, you think you're dead and you get a comeback. You're just like one final attempt. And I've had it come down to those. I find it a hard game. So I usually lose, but I've had a couple of real gripping wins like that. They were fun. Daniel (51:47.522) That's awesome. Jordan Ault (51:50.587) I'll let you borrow it, Daniel. Daniel (52:06.174) Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you. It sounds great, it sounds great. So are there any games with rules that we just don't click with at all? Like, I mean, forget house ruling. Like we just, like it's, it's just, it's just. Jordan Ault (52:18.064) It is. And that's what I find. When I have problems with rules, more often than not, I take the rule book on me with a flight, like on a flight or something like that, and I'm like, oh, I'll have a couple hours, I'll read this, thinking I'll get it to the table in a day or two, and then a few weeks pass, and I sit down, and I'm like, I've retained zero of that. So the biggest reason is when rules don't click, it's that it's the... Kevin (52:19.88) Mage Knight still is, I mean, once you're in it and you play it twice, then the third time it makes sense, but it just will not stick. Is that fair, Jordan? Did you- Jordan Ault (52:45.893) the time between when I learn and when I actually play. That and area control, and I'm just terrible at it. Jordan Ault (52:56.867) I'm awful. I occasionally, when I will relent and play them with my game group, I often win, which I find hilarious, and I don't know how it happens, because I usually don't win the games that I really like. Kevin (53:02.284) Right. Daniel (53:08.222) Mm, mm. So if it's an area control game, just keep on walking. Jordan Ault (53:13.499) But there you go. Daniel (53:25.047) Hehehehehehe Kevin (53:26.136) Great. It's like bowling, there's always a chance you get a strike. No matter how bad you are, you could still hit it. It's really funny. Daniel (53:36.398) Are there any rules that don't click for you? Kevin, would you say mage knight? Is that the... Kevin (53:42.784) Yeah, just in general, there's something counterintuitive. There's an intuition to a lot of games or a habit. And I don't know what it is, but that's an example of a game that seems, it's just weird. And maybe part of it is there's no iconography exactly to help you remember some of the rules. So they give you little cards to remember, well, if you burn down a monastery, then you get X. Daniel (53:53.783) Yeah. Daniel (54:01.277) Okay, okay. Jordan Ault (54:05.851) Yeah, that's real life. Kevin (54:08.032) But it's not, and when you're in the world, you're like, well, okay, I guess you do get a spell for destroying a monastery, but you're probably not going to remember that. And there's not, there's nothing there to help you. Yes. The last monk is like, here. Jordan Ault (54:11.943) Daniel, what about you? I'm curious. Daniel (54:17.568) I mean, that's just an obvious thing. Yeah, yeah. That you just learned from. Daniel (54:29.818) Yeah, I think this might be something that you've observed in me before, Jordan. I cannot get my brain to click around games where the rules change each round. There are certain games that are designed where it's a different set of rules for each round. And by golly, my brain, or each play, a different set of rules, my brain just, made for that. I don't know why. Kevin (55:00.225) What's an example? Daniel (55:03.07) I mean, these are all beloved games. So I'm not saying these are bad games. These are objectively good games. People, many, many people love them, but just my brain doesn't work with them. Smash Up is one. Smash Up, you put together two different factions and each faction has its own rules. And so every time you're playing, there's a different set of rules you're playing because you're smashing together two different, randomly connected. factions. Another one I love, he was a guest on the episode. I love so much, so many of his games, so much. But the rolling realms from Stonemaier games. Jordan was there, we played it at a conference once, it just broke my brain because it's like every round it's a different minigame. And I don't know what it is about my brain, but I think I just, I like to, I like I think what I like about games is I like to know the rules that govern this universe, right? This universe of this game. And then just exploring the possibilities that those rules provide within that universe through the game. But when it's a different set of rules every time, I don't know, my brain just doesn't work that way. I don't know why. My brain doesn't connect. Kevin (56:09.432) Mm-hmm. Jordan Ault (56:11.427) distinct memory of about 10 minutes into that game you just sitting and staring off into space as we can see your brain melt and you're guys I'm sorry none of this makes sense to me Daniel (56:30.402) hahahaha Daniel (56:36.971) Hahaha Daniel (56:41.27) Yeah, I don't know why that is, but it is a true part of my brain. Kristen has observed that in me too. Kevin, do you ever play games like that where the rules change every round or every play? Kevin (56:55.388) if it's rules but I've got some games that I like where the points there's a priority to certain actions in every round I don't know if that's kind of what you're thinking I've got Gaia project which is a great game but you really have to plan far ahead and insert rounds certain actions are rewarded and I get the rules but it's just really hard to think that far I almost you know I need to start taking notes about what I'm gonna do Jordan Ault (57:22.003) the same way. I love planning ahead and my brain gets set in that. So I love the game Isle of Skye, but if you played it before the scoring conditions change round-to-round and I will have a plan in place and I will do something that's just genius and I'm so proud of myself and then I will look and I'm like oh that doesn't score this round and as much as I love that game I fall into that I step on that rake every single time. Daniel (57:22.87) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (57:23.808) And then I forget because I get excited like, oh, I can take over the yellow planet. And then I forget that I get no points for it. So I'm very guilty for doing the cool action that doesn't score points. Daniel (57:43.934) Mm-hmm. Daniel (57:48.578) Yeah. Kevin (57:48.62) Gotcha. Daniel (57:59.412) Right. Daniel (58:05.23) Mm-hmm. Kevin (58:06.328) on that break that's funny. And you mentioned Stonemaier games. I love Scythe. It's a great game. But part of it, sometimes the rules, they're just not what I expect. Like you've got a hero dude, but he can't ever fight. And you're like, but why Whitney? Like thematically, he can go out and stuff. But like, no, he doesn't fight. He just discovers stuff. You're like, but so he's just going to eat popcorn and watch. So there's a bit of me that the rules seem counterintuitive. Jordan Ault (58:23.951) It's one of the things I've been on a big Vittal di Serda kick. And they're so good. Those games are so good. And they're beautiful. And Ian O'Toole's art is gorgeous. But what I love is that they're very complex, but there's only a few choices that you can make each round. But then 12 things happen after you make that. Kevin (58:35.516) somehow within a narrative. Daniel (58:37.596) Hmm. Kevin (58:42.888) I've seen and I'm so jealous. And they're so beautiful too, they're works of art. Jordan Ault (58:46.779) But once you play for a while, everything just clicks and makes sense. And I think his rule books are so good in boiling that down and even how he separates things out. Like you wanna play solo, we're gonna put that in a separate rule book. You want an index or glossary, we're gonna put that in a separate. The other thing that he does, speaking of scythe, I think Jamie Stigmeyer does here is, there's always a section that like, oh, if you're a new player, focus on these things. Daniel (59:13.817) Hmm. Jordan Ault (59:17.319) which I loved in Scythe. It basically said, if this is your first game, do these things for your first four steps. And I love that kind of launching pad. Daniel (59:28.906) Yeah. Kevin (59:30.156) That's nice. Daniel (59:37.342) Yeah. Yeah, Stonebier is really good at that. Kevin (59:46.444) That's cool. That's cool. Daniel (59:46.602) Are there any rules that we would change or house rule in games specifically to play that game in a house of worship or in some sort of worshipful community? Kevin (01:00:03.648) You mean like in the fellowship hall at game night? Daniel (01:00:06.422) Yeah, or just... I don't know. Yeah. Kevin (01:00:12.608) You mean because they're too mean? Or are you thinking theme? Are you thinking just player elimination type stuff, like not fun? Daniel (01:00:15.178) I don't know. Daniel (01:00:20.746) I guess I'm just, I'm... Daniel (01:00:25.45) Like are there rules for a game that we would change when we play them with our church group, or mosque group, or temple group, that we would not change if we were playing it with our game group? Jordan Ault (01:00:29.299) know if there's specific rules, but mechanisms that are really take that. Where, and by that I mean where in order, it's kind of like I said about area control or dudes on a map kind of games, where in order for me to win this game I need to make sure you don't win this game. I need to take all of your stuff, which is a little different. You know, I like Euro games where there are only so many actions and we're kind of jostling to get that the most resources or this action. That's one thing, but games where you're You really need to foil someone else's plans in order for you to win. Particularly if you're trying to introduce a game night and bring people to gaming that don't typically do that. I wouldn't want them going home feeling like, oh, my pastor just took me out by the knees. Daniel (01:00:59.081) Yeah. Kevin (01:01:18.334) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:01:19.072) Yeah. Daniel (01:01:33.482) Right, right, right. Kevin (01:01:36.52) Yeah, I'm with Jordan. I think it's more of a game selection knowing the crowd, but so certain games I wouldn't bring. And maybe there might be kind of unofficial cultural rules. You're not going to trash talk exactly, because trash talking is fun, but it has to be at the right setting where people know you're just, you know, it doesn't mean anything. But in a church setting, poor 19-year-old kids crying because... Daniel (01:01:40.418) Yeah. Daniel (01:01:57.642) Right. Kevin (01:02:04.108) You threaten them with physical harm if they drew a card. But you know, you're really just talking. You didn't really mean it. Jordan Ault (01:02:09.499) That was rough. Ha ha ha. Kevin (01:02:13.184) So I guess it could be rules for the rules. Meta rules? Daniel (01:02:19.054) I never met a rule I didn't like. No, that was bad. I made a horrible joke, it wasn't good. It's not worth repeating, it's fine. No, it's good. Kevin (01:02:19.544) How about you, Daniel? Kevin (01:02:25.196) Which one? i think i talked every in here Kevin (01:02:35.264) Are there any you would have, Daniel? Daniel (01:02:38.54) No, I think you all said it well too. I mean, just, you know, I think in terms of... Daniel (01:02:46.154) more game selection probably, you know, than anything else. Though there will be, I think there are games where... Kevin (01:02:48.536) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:02:58.942) This would be true at Game Group 2, where we get to the end and I kind of gloss over the scoring. Or you know, because we have some first-time players or things like that, or folks who's, you know, the score was, there's a large discrepancy in the score, you know, and it feels like to pour over what the final score would be would be. almost kind of cruel for a first-time player or something like that. And so sometimes it's kind of gloss over the scoring at the end of the game. But. Kevin (01:03:26.956) Right. Kevin (01:03:33.876) Speaking of that I picked up somewhere on reddit or something a nice house rules If you teach a game you should really try to not win Because there's nothing worse than being the guy that teaches and then as you're saying then trounces everyone So sometimes you do win, but I like that idea Daniel (01:03:47.754) Yeah, I remember. I remember you mentioning that last time. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to ask you all about that. That's an interesting thought. Kevin (01:03:56.316) I think that's important because it's about the gaming experience and you're not going to pull out the really sharp arrows unless it's a group that knows the sharp arrows are coming. Daniel (01:04:00.141) Right. Daniel (01:04:08.778) Right. I, I struggle with that a little bit in that, you know, I, I. Daniel (01:04:18.87) You know, when I would play games with my children, you know, if they found out that I let them win, you know, they'd get like really offended and angry. You know what I mean? Or not angry, but it would bother them, you know? And so I never know what is the ethically right thing to do. Teaching a game is different. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:04:28.489) Really? Kevin (01:04:34.476) I think teaching a game is different. Just because you have more of a leverage, because you're experienced. That is the teaching aspect, I think, is where you give them a little slack. It's like when my dad is really good at billiards. So he would play with his non-dominant hand just to give us a chance. Yeah. Jordan Ault (01:04:39.459) I like that. In our house, we always say the first game is not a winning or losing game, it's a learning game. Now that's when I'm playing with my daughter or with my wife frankly. But like in our game group, if I'm sitting down and I've learned a game and somebody's or somebody else is bringing a game and they've played it once or twice or not at all, I wouldn't expect them to throw the game if they're teaching it. Daniel (01:04:44.982) Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Daniel (01:05:01.035) Yeah. Kevin (01:05:01.078) Right. Jordan Ault (01:05:12.751) Yeah. Sometimes if you know a game, it gives you a huge leg up, particularly if you understand what cards are in the deck, or you understand... I'll never forget, I played Blood Rage for the first time, and there are some big cards that kind of change the game as you go in later rounds, and if you don't know what those are, you're not going to win. That was fine, I just kind of had to get around... Kevin (01:05:23.404) That's probably fair. It's a hardcore gaming group type thing. Daniel (01:05:34.647) Right. Jordan Ault (01:05:39.887) get into this mindset of, oh, I really am just learning the game the first time. Daniel (01:05:49.163) Right. Daniel (01:05:57.814) Right, right. And I think also sometimes you can get around that in games by saying that if you were learning it, like, okay, there's no way you can know this, but this card that just came out, this is a really good card. And so, you know, and so you can, it would probably be a good idea if you can get this card for you to get this card, or something like that sort of, yeah. Kevin (01:05:58.709) Yes. Kevin (01:06:10.88) That is a good one. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:06:18.448) Along those lines, if I teach again, sometimes I'll talk strategy because I can tell they're overwhelmed. So I can say, so what I'm thinking through right now is I know this car or I know this is where I get points. I'm going to try to do this. So you give them a little insight. Commentary to the. Jordan Ault (01:06:23.117) I always do that and say, let me know if you need me to shut up. Like if you've got this, great. But if you need some kind of suggestions, I'm here to help you through that. Daniel (01:06:31.21) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:06:40.981) Right. Jordan Ault (01:06:43.571) Oh, sure, sure. Kevin (01:06:48.244) Right, right. Or what I was thinking was even when I'm taking my turn, I'm just sort of... Talking through my decision tree. Yeah, so that way it's not so much trying to tell but yes Certainly if they look lost or if they seek help I can say well, here's a few things to choose from But yeah, I tried to real I'm not an alpha gamer so I don't try to tell them what to do my um 13 year old Is alpha game Lord of the universe? So And he's so funny because he loves the risk so it's like Daniel (01:06:55.936) You're narrating what you're thinking. Jordan Ault (01:07:22.235) Do you have that though if you were teaching cooperative games? I feel like cooperative games are different because I always worry that if I'm teaching a cooperative game, I am alpha gaming. I am. Kevin (01:07:22.996) You have a one in thousand chance of defeating the boss if you draw this card. He's like, oh, I'm totally doing that. He loves the risky moves. So hopefully he never goes to Vegas. Daniel (01:07:31.938) That's great. Jordan Ault (01:07:35.783) kind of suggesting to people how to go about things. And it's really hard to know when and how to draw that line. I hate doing it, but I also, you know, it's more fun if you win, and if I see people like making a decision early in the game, thinking, oh, this is gonna tank it. You know, at one point, do you step in? Jordan Ault (01:08:03.987) I don't know if there's an answer. Kevin (01:08:08.888) That's tough. Daniel (01:08:12.542) Yeah, yeah, I find that tough too. Kevin (01:08:19.968) probably more an art than a science. I still like the idea of giving them some options so you're not exactly telling them what to do but you're saying well you could consider this or you know or one thing that may happen later but if they choose to do X then you just have to go with it but that is tough. Daniel (01:08:25.867) Yeah. Daniel (01:08:41.258) Well, this is a great discussion. I hate to draw it to an end, but I see we are at time. We've approached kind of our hour mark here. Jordan, obviously this has been a very fruitful topic. Thank you so much for suggesting a great conversation and for being willing to take part in it. And for all of your faithful listening to the show, and we appreciate it all. Thank you so much. It's great having you here. Jordan Ault (01:08:57.399) Thanks very much for the invite. This was a lot of fun. Kevin (01:08:58.816) Yeah. Kevin (01:09:14.09) Yay. Daniel (01:09:15.394) Thank you. We've enjoyed it. Kevin (01:09:22.473) next time. Daniel (01:09:22.782) Next time, next time, Kevin, I think you have earned the right to talk about next time. I mean, in my book, it's never anything you earn. So we're having a special guest next time who is... Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:09:32.974) I don't remember what it is. I'm looking. Oh, is it? Is that, is Garphill, is this Shem Phillips Garphill Games? Daniel (01:09:43.262) The next episode after this one is going to be that one. Yeah. So. Yeah, so what's happening, Kevin, next episode. Kevin (01:09:46.168) I'm so excited, I mind blocked it. Kevin (01:09:51.888) I'm going to cut the earlier part out. We are having Shem Phillips come and discuss board game design, as well as his religious journey. Daniel (01:10:05.574) So exciting, that's going to be great. Kevin (01:10:07.148) So Garphill Games, yeah, he used to work at McDonald's. And there's a real story there, I think. He was given the opportunity to start a company and design games. And nothing wrong with working McDonald's, but that's a wild shift to go from McDonald's to acclaimed board game designer, who just is a machine. I mean, he puts out two great titles a year, something like that. Daniel (01:10:23.932) No, no. Jordan Ault (01:10:25.027) For anybody who's new to the podcast, I'm sorry that you're getting me for the first episode. Smash between Jim Phillips and Jimmy Stegmaier. And whatnot. It's a really great job. Daniel (01:10:30.466) That's pretty cool. That is pretty neat. Daniel (01:10:36.242) Yeah, yeah. Cool. Daniel (01:10:47.578) No, no, no. Oh my goodness, no, you're a great guest, Jordan. No, you are. You are awesome in and of your own right. You can you can. So no, we love having you. Thank you. Kevin (01:11:00.584) And I appreciate thinking about rule books. I think that really is a great topic that everyone, everyone struggles with it and thinks about and notices. But I don't know that people talk about it exactly besides complain. So, yeah. Daniel (01:11:07.362) Yeah. Daniel (01:11:13.97) And it is a fruitful area of overlap between, I think, areas of board games and faith. It's a... Daniel (01:11:25.11) We should have a, yeah. Kevin (01:11:26.304) Maybe we should have a follow-up. What if religions were more like board game rules, rule books? A little more overt with some of the rules of what is expected. That would be kind of cool. Daniel (01:11:34.634) Ooh, like what happens when you have like a revised edition or a third edition or a fourth edition? I want the fourth edition of Habakkuk. Give me Habakkuk V4. Kevin (01:11:43.457) Yeah? Yeah. Jordan Ault (01:11:46.491) The V4 comes with the metal coins though, so it's worth it. Kevin (01:11:50.728) Isn't that a short one? So it'd be like just another chapter. It'd be like chapter five, if it seems like. Right. Daniel (01:11:52.746) I thought... Daniel (01:11:56.495) I think I just like to say, Habakkuk. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (01:12:04.14) Right, right, right. Kevin (01:12:05.864) Yeah, at our church, I've seen others do like a casual dress for the summer. And then I realized we put it in the bulletin for July and August, but then most people are so casual anyway, I really didn't know what the rules were. Besides what was I supposed to wear? So I went with Air Jordans and shorts and a black tie. Yeah. So like a penguin, confused penguin. Daniel (01:12:19.734) Right, right, right. Daniel (01:12:28.974) That's a good idea. I like it. Kevin (01:12:34.868) Yeah, so like what are the rules for dress or yeah, I don't know. That might be interesting. Daniel (01:12:41.642) Well, more to discuss in the future, but thank you so much everyone for joining us. And we appreciate you all. If you want to find us, you can find us on Instagram, on Facebook as boardgamefaith, primarily on Instagram, or you can email us at boardgamefaith.gmail.com. So until next time, thank you so much everybody. Kevin (01:12:56.938) Awesome. Thanks everybody. Daniel (01:13:02.275) Bye bye. Jordan. Kevin (01:13:06.012) Okay.