Daniel (00:02.422)
Play Saves the World, Episode 2. What is play?

Daniel (00:46.103)
That's some amazing dancing. Hello.

Kevin (00:48.791)
You know, they have chair yoga, but chair dancing is quite challenging because you're really limited in your moves.

Daniel (00:53.431)
We should do some... Yeah, yeah. I'm feeling like my shoulders really got to work out there. And my fingers through the waves there. Those who are listening just to the audio, may wonder what we're talking about. Kevin and I like to dance to our...

Kevin (01:03.477)
Yeah.

Kevin (01:10.23)
The video will too, because I'll probably drop in the video montage thing. No one sees this dancing.

Daniel (01:14.68)
Okay, okay, good, good, good. Anyway, whether you've seen dancing or whether you're dancing right now or not, it is so good to welcome you to Play Saves the World. Hi, thanks for clicking the button, tuning in today to spend some moments with us. My name is Daniel Hilty.

Kevin (01:33.846)
and my name is Kevin Taylor.

Daniel (01:36.121)
And we are so thankful for you taking part in this little foray into the world of play and the meaning of play for human flourishing. Episode two, a play saves the world. Some of us know who are listening already. This is a re -theme of a previous podcast that went for over 50 episodes called Board Game Faith, but we are expanding into the larger world of play. We had our first episode last time. Kevin, what did you?

What was our last episode about? And what did you think of it?

Kevin (02:07.991)
Our last episode was a zigzag episode. Because in order to zig, you have to zag. In order to zag, you gotta zig. There is no zig without zag and there is no zag without. There is no... What's the Chinese thing? The circle... yin and yang. I was going to say feng shui, but that's not it at all. There is no yin without yang. You need the two. So we can't define play without talking about work, strangely. And you can't define work.

Daniel (02:12.056)
oooo

You gotta zag if you want to. That's right. Nope.

Daniel (02:24.249)
Yin and Yang. Yeah.

Daniel (02:36.472)
Yeah.

Kevin (02:37.398)
in some ways without talking about play, but it was easier to start with work. And so we tried to identify what work is. Work is generally something that is purposive. It has a purpose. And it has a, and part of that purpose is it has a goal that it's trying to achieve, which could be paying the rent. Correct?

Daniel (03:02.904)
Right. Right.

Kevin (03:04.021)
So it's instrumental, so it attempts to play through something. Or work through, I shouldn't say play, I think I was getting the instrument trumpet thing in my head. I shouldn't say instrument. Yeah, I think.

Daniel (03:07.928)
Right, right, it's -

Daniel (03:15.385)
Okay, well, I just didn't know. No, it's instrumental. It's a, yeah, it's instrumental. Instrumentality. It's a means toward an end. It's an instrument. Work is an instrument for achieving a goal.

Yeah.

Kevin (03:20.054)
Instrumentality. Yeah instrumentality of work. It's that's Why did I do this part this should have been your part I'm terrible No, no after the after we finished recording. I'm jumping out that window It's okay. There's a nice bush. There's a thorn bush underneath so So I won't really be hurt, but I'll just feel pain which is what I deserve for talking about

Daniel (03:30.906)
No, I think you're killing it. No, I think you're killing it. You're doing great.

No, no, can I affirm you? So it's just... Just, just puni -

Kevin (03:50.294)
it that way. It's okay. But work, work has a means to an end. So you're completing a project for work and that project means that you are paid type thing or you're starting a business so you're expanding your business, etc. etc. So work has a has a purpose. It is a means to an end. It's not necessarily a bad thing because work

Daniel (03:50.298)
No, no, don't don't punish the flesh. You're just I affirm you. It was great. It was great.

Right.

Daniel (04:17.306)
Right, right.

Kevin (04:18.806)
can give us meaning. We take pleasure in creating things and making things and being part of a group or a staff or a team and it feels good to get paid for your work. I mean that can be a sense of pleasure. Work also can be playful. You can approach work as play. And I think about that for say board game creators or

Daniel (04:31.099)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel (04:37.563)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (04:41.813)
Tabletop role -playing game designers those sorts of people are combining work and play they've got to play they've got to play test the game But it is their work because it's their main source of income and they're looking at how many people bought the game They're looking at metrics, which isn't really fun. If you think about designing a game and then saying We only did ten thousand in sales and we were hoping for fifteen

Daniel (04:52.987)
Right.

Daniel (05:06.363)
Right, right. That doesn't seem very playful. No, no. Right.

Kevin (05:09.749)
It's not. And it started out as a hobby, probably, as a play, like you like to play games, just like you might start out playing an instrument and then you end up playing for the symphony and it's a full -time job and it's not, it's not the same, it's still fun, but it's not the same kind of fun.

Daniel (05:27.804)
Right, right. It's hard to nail down exactly the definitions between work and play and where that line is. I heard from a listener this past week, John, thanks for listening, John, who said, you know, I mean, it's one of his goals has been to try to only say yes to work that he can also find playful, you know? And I think that's a good goal to have. But yeah, so yeah, work can be playful.

Kevin (05:34.037)
Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel (05:58.364)
One person's work can be another person's play back and forth. And yeah, as you said, I think the difference seems to reside in this notion of intentionality, right? Are we doing the action or instrumentality? Are we doing the action as a means to an end?

or not, right? Yeah.

Kevin (06:21.525)
Yes. Yes, and I think most of the thinkers in the Western tradition have identified the purest joy as something where the pleasure is in the thing itself. Where it is its own end. So that's the sense of beauty. Or goodness is its own reward. You don't... In a perfect state of things, in a utopia, you wouldn't be good because you get a star on the chart at the

Daniel (06:35.964)
Right.

Kevin (06:50.357)
front of the teacher's room, you are good simply because you are good or honest or true, right? So being a good person is its own reward. That's a much better state than you're only good because you're afraid you'll get in trouble or you won't get a star or your parents will be mad at you, right? So you create music or you create things simply for the pleasure of it and not for also the goal of paying the bills.

Daniel (06:55.132)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (07:07.613)
Right, right.

Daniel (07:16.348)
Right, right, yeah.

Kevin (07:18.261)
getting a paycheck from the symphony orchestra or something.

Yeah, and work is not a necessarily bad thing. It's implied in the Bible that humanity would work even without the fall into sin. And you can read those origin ancient stories, Genesis, the early chapters, however you want. You can take it literally or more of as a story. Either way, you get to the same place that work is not exactly excluded. It just becomes more difficult as a result of the entrance of human sin.

Daniel (07:51.004)
Right.

Kevin (07:51.445)
And what we see is that work can be oppressive, it can be abusive. And there we're thinking of the criticisms that Karl Marx and others had about factory work. We're thinking about where work becomes exploitative, where minimum wage is not a living standard, where people such as in America, we don't really get healthcare unless you're working for a large company, which is really a bizarre thing.

Daniel (07:55.931)
Right, right, yeah.

Kevin (08:18.037)
but that's kind of the state of reality in America today. So yeah, work becomes a very difficult process.

Daniel (08:18.332)
Right.

Daniel (08:26.174)
Right, right. I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. It's the oppressiveness of it can grow out of this instrumentality of it in a way that, you know, if it's always geared toward some sort of end outside of itself, if it's always oriented towards some sort of end outside of itself, then it can...

Kevin (08:27.669)
at times.

Daniel (08:55.198)
turn all sorts of other things into means to an end, means to an end or instrumentalize, the word might be all sorts of things. It can instrumentalize people like you were saying, you know, just that, yeah, yeah, it's led to the enslavement of people and yeah, exploitative work conditions. It can rob us.

Kevin (09:05.077)
Yeah, their bodies, their time.

Kevin (09:11.285)
Yeah, slavery is the cheapest form of human labor because you don't pay for them.

Daniel (09:18.078)
Yeah, yeah, it comes, it comes, it turns, right.

Kevin (09:19.829)
In terms of you don't pay them a wage. I mean you're robbing their work. You're getting their work without paying them. So yeah

Daniel (09:25.981)
It makes human beings in service to an end. It instrumentalizes them in this machine, part of the machine. Yeah. And on a, just on a...

Kevin (09:32.117)
Yeah, they become cogs, cogs in the machine.

Daniel (09:39.326)
less dramatic level, it robs us of the ability to enjoy the present too, because it keeps us focused on this end, this goal that's out here. And if we're always focused on the end or the goal that's out here, and everything we're doing right now is simply a means for that end, then we never really get to enjoy what we're doing right now. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (09:44.693)
Right.

Kevin (09:55.125)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, so if you haven't listened to episodes the prior episode about what is work that gives you a little snapshot but go back and listen to it and tell your friends about it and But the takeaway is that work is something that is a means to an end and work cannot save us So that's all a setup. This is a prequel Daniel to our real topic. What's a real?

Daniel (10:06.813)
Yeah.

Daniel (10:21.918)
Kevin (10:24.917)
besides Sith Lords.

Daniel (10:24.99)
Our real... In the prequel is the origin story of Kevin Skywalker.

Kevin (10:40.149)
That is a pleasing name because of the double K's. Kevin Skywalk.

Daniel (10:43.167)
Kevin Skywalker. Yeah, yeah. But in addition to being the origin story of Kevin Skywalker is a setup for this episode, which is what is play? What is play? And so I guess, you know, so the first thing to say jumping off of last episode is that compared to work, play is fundamentally non -instrumental, right? It is not about a means to an end.

it is in some ways an end to itself, but maybe we're getting ahead a little bit on that, but it's not a means to an end. It's not for the purposes of achieving something else that comes later. And that's, I think, an important distinction to make because sometimes we say that, well, why is play important? Sometimes people will say, I'll say sometimes, well, play is important because it allows me to recharge my batteries so that I can get back and work harder.

Kevin (11:39.349)
No, Daniel, no, no! Yes, yes!

Daniel (11:41.152)
Am I wrong? No. So work is not a play is not just in service to work. No, because why? Because that just instrumentalizes play again, right? It just makes it makes play a means to an end, which is working better. And then it's not really play at all. It's just still part of the work process. It's just how we recharge. Yeah.

Kevin (11:46.965)
No!

Kevin (11:52.085)
Yes! Yes!

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, that's a really dangerous pitfall. I mean, there's truth in the statement. It's not that it's wrong. It's just very dangerous to go down that path because then play is instrumentalized and your really your main goal is to be a worker versus someone who takes joy, true joy in and of itself in things that are not work. Yeah, that's a very dangerous thing. And it's a real pitfall of capitalism, which and capitalism is wonderful. I'm not

Daniel (12:15.775)
Right. Yeah.

Daniel (12:21.439)
Yeah, it just turns.

Kevin (12:28.309)
trying to knock it, but it does have hard edges, which is the work hard, play hard, which just makes you more and more of a consumer. So you work hard to take lavish vacations, which put you in debt, so you have to work harder. That's a real trap to fall into.

Daniel (12:44.314)
Right, seen from that perspective, play really is not play. It's just another part of the work process. It's just another part of work. Yeah, and so you never get a break from work. Even your play isn't service to the work.

Kevin (12:55.605)
Yeah, you're getting and you're spending. What's the Wordsworth poem? Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers. Little in nature that is ours. You know, that's like getting and spending is a bit of a trap if that's your main identity of play. Which happens actually, sadly enough, in the world of play in terms of buying.

Daniel (13:02.401)
Hmm.

Daniel (13:07.681)
Yeah.

Daniel (13:11.297)
Right, right, right.

Kevin (13:17.909)
Products which are wonderful, but if you have to buy all the D &D editions and call a Cthulhu or board games and we talk about this especially board games the it can be an expensive hobby, especially if you are always in You know the cult of the new and getting the hot newest game you can spend a lot of money

Daniel (13:24.865)
Yeah.

Daniel (13:34.05)
Yeah, or the hottest, the newest golf club set or, you know, or play can be very much consumer driven like everything else that we are, that we are in life and this in our corner of the world.

Kevin (13:38.261)
Yeah.

Kevin (13:45.941)
Yes.

Kevin (13:50.293)
Podcast started out as very much a playful thing. It was very indie the backbone of it was RSS newsreaders, which is a format for getting out the letting people know there's new Content on a website and they grafted podcasts on it It was decentralized and we're seeing it become more and more monetized YouTube and Spotify are You know realizing the money and wanting to monetize it

Daniel (13:54.209)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (14:10.689)
Mmm.

Kevin (14:16.213)
And that has some benefits, but it also raises some questions.

Daniel (14:20.321)
Yeah, I've never found out what RSS stands for. Do you know what RSS stands for? I know it, it, I'm.

Kevin (14:27.317)
Well, Kevin Skywalker is really never went on an adventure because he's a big nerd. It's really simple syndication something like that I think so really simple syndication something along those lines like it does it's not a big thing. It was it's a very simple thing of getting update The idea instead of having to go to a website to see what's new which is what we used to do. Can you imagine? And web 1 .0. This was an idea of like well

Daniel (14:35.617)
Really? Interesting. Okay. Okay.

Daniel (14:43.909)
Yeah.

Okay, okay.

Daniel (14:51.777)
Yeah.

Kevin (14:57.172)
We'll just let you know what's new on the site in text through a reader and then you can go there to read that article if you want. Do you ever use RSS news readers? I love them, they're so good.

Daniel (15:04.77)
Okay, okay. I've maybe done it at one point in my life, but no, no, not really, not really. Yeah.

Kevin (15:12.276)
it's so good. I still have them. And Whitesite still have it because it's not a big deal to support.

Daniel (15:18.02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I like that.

Kevin (15:19.733)
So yeah, I use a news reader. Reader, R -E -E -D -E -R on the iPad, iPhone's really nice.

Daniel (15:26.499)
cool. Cool. So play cannot be a means to an end and still be play. That's kind of the essential maybe definition of it. Yeah. So does that make play pointless? And, you know, in our show notes we talked about here, maybe. On one hand, yes. On the other hand, maybe not.

Kevin (15:35.956)
Yeah, it's allergic. It is allergic to work.

Daniel (15:53.508)
We have encountered this phrase in discussions before this word, atelic, a meaning without and telic kind of related to the Greek word telos, meaning your end, your goal, your purpose. And so play, yeah, A -T -E -L -I -C, thank you. It does have five, if you're spelling it in old English, yeah, yeah. In old English, it's ye olde atelic.

Kevin (16:07.926)
A -T -E -L -I -C Q -Q -Q -Q -Q -Q -Q -Q -Q has five Q's after it. Make sure you spell it that correct way, please. Yes.

Kevin (16:22.857)
And it meant it meant fallen thorn god or something it was very Viking. Yeah, it's just it's it's very interesting at The runeglyphs. Yeah, and was related to an ant. So the etymology of the entomology Yeah is is very interesting and accurate

Daniel (16:23.587)
It did. It did. It did. In the original rune, the rune glyphs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel (16:41.06)
That's what I love about these forays with you, Kevin. We learn all sorts of new things that maybe... That's right. That's right. So play is atelic, meaning on the one hand without an end, without a goal, without a purpose. We shared earlier in a prior episode, those of us familiar with kind of the new Christian tradition, New Testament tradition.

Kevin (16:47.093)
The utter accuracy of... yes.

Daniel (17:08.933)
There's this famous phrase where Jesus says, be perfect. And that's the word there in Greek is telos, T -E -L -O -S. It's this sense of your end, your purpose, your goal, why it exists. So they say play is atelic, without a purpose, without a goal. This is something that Oliver Berkman discussed in his book, 4 ,000 Weeks, which last episode I incorrectly identified as 8 ,000 Weeks, which is...

for Yoda, I guess, because he lives longer than human beings do.

Kevin (17:44.725)
You

That's really good. That was a good one. That's a good move. But it is the point of the book is the average lifespan is 4 ,000 weeks So you're falling for 8 ,000 is kind of this point that we all think we have longer So it's a very common and I've had that issue too like in your mind getting the tile that book right is surprisingly difficult because it feels like it should be longer to Your error there is not without merit. I'll put it that way

Daniel (17:57.221)
Right.

Daniel (18:09.637)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It should be more than 4 ,000 weeks. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (18:18.022)
Wow, thank you. At least I could hope to have meritorious errors in my life. Okay, thank you. So there are some activities of play that generally seem, are without an end or a goal. Like for example, you talk about walking meditation in Buddhism.

Kevin (18:20.021)
Heheheheh

Well, it's not without merit. It's a different type.

Daniel (18:45.637)
Right? Where you just, you just go for a walk. It's just an act of meditation and your goal isn't to achieve anything. It's just, yeah.

Kevin (18:49.141)
Yeah, and some Christians do that too. The Archbishop Rowan Williams does a walking prayer or did at one time. You kind of amble and you pray as you walk and you walk with no purpose. Yeah, he's adapted that in a way for so, yeah, very interesting.

Daniel (18:55.173)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (19:01.447)
Yeah, yeah. In some ways, the spiritual tradition of the labyrinth might even kind of be like that as well. The labyrinth is not a maze. You're not trying to find the way out. You're just walking, right? It's just, you're just walking. But there are other things outside of spiritual traditions too. I know musicians who just talk about noodling on the piano, right? They're just playing around. It just kind of flitting from one chord or melody to another. They're really not trying to achieve anything. They're just noodling on the piano.

Kevin (19:06.741)
Exactly.

Kevin (19:11.957)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (19:30.631)
teasing someone you love, flying a kite, you know, all of these things are just, they're really kind of without a goal, but they're playful, they're play, and they're meaningful. So on the one hand, yeah, play can be without a point. On the other hand, play can be, can have a point. But the distinction between that and work is play can generate its own point, right? Like it's,

Kevin (19:38.098)
Mm -hmm.

Kevin (19:56.05)
Yes.

Daniel (19:57.542)
The phrase sometimes is used for the word is autotelic. Like it creates its own purpose, its end goal in that own moment. And often those goals are so short -lived and fleeting that they are inconsequential and yet they're still deeply meaningful. Right? So like, yeah.

Kevin (20:03.666)
Right.

Kevin (20:19.186)
Yeah, and it creates its own benefits. Like, we wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun. But strangely, you have to have low expectations or go into it in a general... I don't know, like consider a game. If you go into it expecting it'll be the most fun ever, you're probably going to be disappointed. You more have to approach it as entering the game state and expecting, you know, the game to be the game and there might be fun in it. So you go for a walk...

and you have insight. So play can produce these weird benefits, but it's not playful if you ever do it for that purpose. I can give an example, Daniel, and both Daniel and I are Christian pastors, which means we have to give weekly thoughts in a public forum, and those are called sermons. Right?

Daniel (20:54.438)
Right. Right.

Daniel (20:59.302)
Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel (21:10.086)
I would like to hear an example with three points and a poem, please, if you don't mind. Go for it.

Kevin (21:13.01)
Exactly three points in a poem is the classic joke for sermon but no for me for ideas for sermons my best ideas are Practicing is often when I'm driving a car But I've never actually gotten in the car to say I need to think about Think through the sermon. I'm gonna go for a drive That would be a little weird and I think it probably wouldn't work but I'm just finding if I'm driving and so my Body is occupied and doing something

Daniel (21:24.038)
Daniel (21:41.702)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (21:42.098)
and my problem solving mind is kind of, and this is a talk among therapists, you have different aspects to your mind. So the problem solving mind is a little occupied with driving, then the other parts of my brain can be playful and sort of think, hey, what if you did this or what about this? And it doesn't always work, but it's pretty darn effective. And it's better than sitting at a desk going, okay, I'm gonna plan this out.

Daniel (21:58.278)
Hmm, interesting, interesting. Yeah.

Right, right.

Daniel (22:06.716)
right.

Kevin (22:07.954)
And then, I don't know, the playfulness leads to... Do you have an example like that of how you can play and maybe generate something that you weren't even intending?

Daniel (22:09.001)
nothing. Yeah. Is that why...

Daniel (22:20.553)
Well, I -

Kevin (22:20.914)
Like it has a benefit, but it's not the purpose of what you're doing. It just arises. Maybe a walk.

Daniel (22:25.406)
Hmm. Well, here you talk about the driving example made me think about, you often hear about taking a shower as kind of this spot where you get really good ideas, you know, and in fact, that happened this morning. I was taking my shower and I had an idea for my sermon coming up this weekend. And I, when I was done, I wrote it down real quick so I wouldn't forget it. But,

Kevin (22:32.722)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (22:40.466)
Ooh.

So is that a plague and is driving a car and a shower? I guess. I mean, if you only took the shower to get clean, that would be work. But if you're taking it partly as a...

Daniel (22:56.617)
to relax and yeah, yeah.

Kevin (22:57.746)
Yeah, you're not you're not you don't get out of the shower immediately when you're clean you actually are lingering because you're enjoying the warmth the steam whatever Then it becomes the I never thought of shower as play That's interesting, but it is like driving a vehicle. It's a purpose or sorry You're you you've got some part of your mind is something to do while the rest of your mind can freeform Yeah

Daniel (23:04.425)
Right.

Daniel (23:09.065)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that.

Hmm, yeah.

Daniel (23:22.569)
Right.

That's so interesting.

Yeah, I hadn't considered that. I like that. I like that. So yeah, so play can generate this kind of sense of. So play can generate its own end, its own goal unexpectedly. But it's not the.

Kevin (23:44.626)
And that's generally life's higher pleasures. I think that's what most philosophers would say. While it is pleasurable to do something for a purpose such as build the Eiffel Tower.

Daniel (23:49.257)
Yeah.

Kevin (23:56.018)
Build the st. Louis arch that's for you. But right 1945 or 65 something like that because I visited but But the higher pleasures would be the purposes that are unto themselves That are autotelic yeah

Daniel (23:59.497)
thank you for the Missouri shout out.

Daniel (24:10.633)
Right, right. Like playing a piece of music. Yeah. Or making a piece of art or playing a game. That's right. Yeah. I mean, we've used this example in games. There are goals in games. And you kind of need that for the game to work. The games generate their own goals. But those goals are so fleeting and inconsequential that, I mean, in the eyes of the world, they're not the kind of goals like ending.

world hunger or things like that. You know, I mean, they're just, they seem inconsequential fleeting goals. So much so that they, well, I've already said it, but yeah, that they generate goals, but different kinds of goals.

Kevin (24:40.914)
Yeah.

Kevin (24:50.738)
Yeah. And you think about the virtues. So, 1 Corinthians 13 from the New Testament in the Bible, and I go to this just because it's the stuff I know best. So, if you're from a different place in terms of faith or religious tradition, just substitute. I think there's probably similar things. But in that, the great virtues of the Christian life are faith, hope, and love. And that's always because they are their own reward. They are autotelic.

Daniel (25:10.761)
Yeah.

Kevin (25:20.018)
It's never, well do those things so you'll get to heaven. Right? Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't phrase it that way. He simply praises them for their own reward. So they are autotelic as well.

Daniel (25:23.753)
Right.

Daniel (25:31.145)
Yeah, yeah.

Have you ever read the book, Psalm for the Wild Built by Becky Chambers? I'm just, I'm just pulling, I'm sorry, I'm going off script here. I just finished listening to the audio book of it. Kristin, my wife, first read it and recommended it. It's, Becky Chambers, by the way, sidebar, is a really great author. She's a science fiction author, but she's in the genre of what they call like something like Steam Hope or something like that. Like it's a futuristic.

Kevin (25:40.402)
No.

Daniel (26:02.729)
She writes about kind of future science fiction, but it's hopeful and it's gentle and it's really nice. Anyway.

Kevin (26:08.466)
I've never heard of so instead of steam punk it's steam hope. That is so cool. I never heard of this

Daniel (26:12.297)
Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really neat. But so this book, it's called a Psalm for the Wild -Built and it is about an encounter in this future world between a monk, human being, a religious monk and a robot. And kind of trying to figure out kind of meaning of life in some ways. And this is the conversation that you were having and that you just...

insights you just shared makes me think about it, this sense of, you know, we're so wrapped up in trying to figure out our purpose that it almost kind of becomes oppressive, right? And there is some wisdom in a more playful curiosity that just says, you know what, let's just, why don't we set that oppressive stuff aside for a while and just be curious and play and find meaning in that.

Kevin (27:08.114)
Right. Yeah.

Daniel (27:12.681)
Anyway, it's a neat book.

Kevin (27:14.898)
I gotta read this. I'm in a book club as maybe my pick. They often are baffled by my picks, but this is the greatest title ever, A Psalm for the Wild Built. And the previous book is The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet.

Daniel (27:25.544)
All of her book titles.

Daniel (27:30.857)
Yes, that's a much longer book. But it is also fantastic. It's hopeful and gentle and science fiction. We really like Becky Chambers. Anyway, but yes. So that's maybe the first mark of play is what we might call its non -instrumentality that it is, or its atelic nature, its autotickle nature. It is not a means to an end.

Kevin (27:34.034)
Okay.

Kevin (27:40.018)
Yeah, published by Tor Books. That's a major science fiction publisher.

Yay, Becky!

Daniel (28:00.745)
And maybe in some ways, it is either without an end or it generates its own end. So that's maybe the first mark. It's not instrumentality. But there are other marks of what makes play play as well. And Kevin, we've talked kind of offline that maybe to figure out some of the other marks, we need to turn to our, an old philosopher friend.

Kevin (28:23.634)
He's the saint in the play saves the world pantheon. Saint Suits, we call him, which sounds French. I love Sanssou. Bernard Suits, who was Canadian, and they've got French up there, so he probably would appreciate that. Bernard Suits attempts to define games in a lovely, interesting, beguiling,

Daniel (28:25.417)
He is in the pantheon.

Daniel (28:41.481)
Yeah, for sure.

Kevin (28:51.378)
and at times frustrating book just because it's very erudite so you have to work to read it but it's worth it. The Grasshopper.

Daniel (29:01.577)
Grasshopper.

Kevin (29:02.898)
And what he's riffing on, and you're going to hear how this has informed our thinking once you hear this, there is an old Aesop's fable called the, is it called the grasshopper? The Ant and the Grasshopper. And the idea of that is the grasshopper plays in the summer while the ant stores its food and then when winter comes the ant has his food and the grasshopper dies.

Daniel (29:15.497)
The ant and the grasshopper. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (29:30.386)
It's a lovely kid's story. You should read it to your children every night and then tuck them into sleep and just, you know, I think it will really help them sleep well. I'm making fun of the fact that it's kind of a horrible story. So the grasshopper, like, doesn't he beg him for food? And the ants like, no, and the grasshopper dies.

Daniel (29:30.409)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (29:40.617)
You

He does

Yeah, the grasshopper's like, please give me food. And the ant said, you should have worked. And you should have worked. That's right.

Kevin (29:53.65)
Yeah.

You should have worked. Die, scum. Die, playful one. So that is Aesop's fable from the ancient world. And the point of it is we should work. Right? So it's got a moral to the story. And Suits cleverly flips that around and calls his book The Grasshopper. And he still has the grasshopper die. But the point is the grasshopper is more truly alive and the grasshopper as a grasshopper can't work.

Daniel (30:02.769)
Yeah.

Kevin (30:24.562)
because his ultimate identity is to play. And therefore, which are we? That's the looming question. Are we ants or are we grasshoppers? And I think Suits is trying to suggest we're grasshoppers who sometimes get confused and think we're ants. But our true human identity is as the grasshopper, despite the fact that it can kill us.

Would you add? How is that? What would you add to that?

Daniel (30:50.289)
Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. I just, I love the premise of that book. Just, you know, what if the grasshopper was right, you know, or at least had wisdom that we don't. And I love that he doesn't change the fact that he dies. He does die.

Kevin (30:58.29)
So good.

Kevin (31:07.89)
No, no, then he plays on a becomes almost a Jesus figure where he dies and is resurrected. Great way. And he's still the same guy. Yeah, he's just like, yeah.

Daniel (31:11.985)
He becomes a Jesus figure. Yeah. I mean, spoilers, but yeah, he raises from the dead at the end. And he has disciples. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so good. That's so good. You know, I mean, and some of our listeners may be hearing this and think, well, you know, why are we talking about games? I thought this was a podcast on play, but really you can't talk about play without talking about games.

Play is what we do when we do games. And we're not talking about just board games, anything like that, but any kind of, from a broad sense, playfulness and games are two sides of the same coin. We really get at the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (31:51.154)
Yeah, I mean play has to have some rules, right? Or else it'd be anarchy. You'd run out and grab a twig and then scream and then throw a brick at a house and then jump on a train. Like it would just be random events. So plays always got to have some structure to it, whether it's hopscotch or, you know, can you climb this tree? Like everything has a certain scope to it. Is that fair? Yeah.

Daniel (32:05.105)
Yeah.

Daniel (32:16.945)
Right. absolutely. And in fact, I think it leads.

Kevin (32:18.514)
So every play is some game type activity.

Daniel (32:21.681)
Right, right. Which I think leads us to the definition of what play is that Bernard Suits eventually arrives at in the Grasshopper. But before we get to that, can I go on a pop culture sidebar? Okay, all right. So I have, yeah, what does Google say? Is Google okay with that? Okay, right. I have...

Kevin (32:39.858)
No. Yes, maybe. We'll see. Let me check what Google says. Google says yes. You can do, yeah.

Gemini says approved, doctor. That's my Dalek voice.

Daniel (32:53.125)
Your your quest I love your Dalek we should do a whole episode in the Dalek voice Exterminate Kevin Kevin what what do you say about play?

Kevin (32:57.65)
no one would listen to it. We would die laughing.

You

I cannot speak to that my plunger is drooping because they have plungers on the

Daniel (33:15.345)
They do. You are irrational. Anyway, but yes. So somehow much too late. I seem to be going through my killers phase. I've discovered the killers and this no, no, no, the band, the band. Yes. That my my son was has been into for a while and his friends, but I

Kevin (33:29.106)
Okay. The concept or the band? Okay. I was, I was worried. I needed to call the police.

Daniel (33:39.313)
I've just recently, but you know, they have this old, your song, your question remind me of this. Are we Ant or are we Grasshopper? Remind me of their old song. Are we human or are we dancer? Are you familiar with this song? Are we human or are we dancer? And I thought that it's a great song with a lot of, it's very danceable. And...

Kevin (33:49.362)
You

Daniel (34:03.793)
you listen to it and you think the answer is supposed to be dancer. Well, of course we're dancer. You know, we were not just human, we're dancer. I was reading the background of it. Actually, it comes from this quote where I forget who it was, but some journalists, a social critic who talked about our society is producing a bunch of dancers who dance in lockstep with what the government tells us, the society tells us. So that's actually what that song is about. It's saying, you know, we're to be human, not dancer. Just as Bernard Suites says,

maybe we're supposed to be grasshopper and not ant. Anyway, that was a sidebar. Thanks for letting me go down that. But you're right, you're saying that play can't exist without structure, without rules. And that brings us to this definition, right? So the point of the grasshopper is he's trying to come up with a definition of, we would say play. In the book he says definition of games, but he...

Kevin (34:38.002)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (34:58.674)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (35:01.809)
We would say play. He's doing this in response to an Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein who says you can't define games. Bernard Schuetz says yes, one define games, but it's really Ludwig Wittgenstein.

Kevin (35:11.862)
Ludwig Wittgenstein is my favorite philosopher. Wittgenstein. The Daleks do tend to go up at the end on their emphasis.

Daniel (35:21.652)
Why do the dogs they always write they have they have a ascending voice at the end of the sentence. Yeah, that's right. They got to get it. I must get my words out. All right.

Kevin (35:27.605)
It's almost like the speaker is starting to short on their voice box and it just has to make a final explosion and stop. And they just stop. Yeah.

My little cake cuz they're little creatures inside these tank machines. It's like it's overheating if I talk too long This is dr. Who and if you're not yeah the sad bit about dr Who is so many people say I don't even know where to start so they just don't watch it and it's kind of sad because I'm like I'll just start somewhere, but I think because it's been going for so many years. It's kind of daunting. Yeah

Daniel (36:01.585)
It's a crowd. Yeah, we love the show. This latest season's really good. We've really been enjoying it.

Kevin (36:07.989)
need to start it I kind of started it and I don't know I was in a cranky mood so I just yeah I didn't the show didn't match my mood so then I watched a Soka and that didn't help because that was it's I that's not a I'm sorry y 'all it's not a good show I still watched it but yeah you were or weren't

Daniel (36:13.617)
Yeah.

Daniel (36:17.265)
I understand. The first.

Really? You weren't you weren't fond of Ahsoka? Yeah, sorry. I was, but I mean, it wasn't my favorite, but I was just saying you you were not fond of it. That's what you were saying.

Kevin (36:31.509)
That's what I mean. It's like, well, I still watched it and it's very watchable, but it's just, I don't know, there are bits that annoyed me. Like, like, so he's been exiled to this distant world and then they put the map coordinates to it in a little ball that's hidden in a temple underground somewhere. I don't know. It just had this weird Raiders of Lost Ark and then.

Daniel (36:39.409)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel (36:54.609)
Yeah, yeah, I could see that. I could see that.

So.

Kevin (37:00.628)
I told you I was in a bad mood.

Daniel (37:02.513)
No, no, it's fine. It's fair. It's fair. It's fair. So, yes, so Suits spends the grasshopper book trying to arrive at definition of what we would say is play. And so, and he comes to this often quoted definition at the end of the book that if you get into game studies, studies of play, I think sooner or later, you will encounter, which is, it is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles.

Kevin (37:30.676)
So good.

Daniel (37:31.441)
It's so good. We need a t -shirt that says that. The voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles. That's what play is. That's what games are. That's so good. Yeah. Six words and so much thought into those six words. And you're right. It gets at what you're saying, Kevin, that to overcome unnecessary obstacles, that's talking about rules, right? It's talking about structure.

Kevin (37:39.796)
Six words. I was trying to count. Six words.

Kevin (37:55.124)
There's some structure on some level to every game or every playfulness.

Daniel (37:58.417)
Right, right, right. I think the classic example he gives is golf. One of the classic examples he gives is the book is golf, right? You know, if the goal of golf is to get a ball in a hole, there are a lot of really easy ways to get a ball in a hole. For example, you pick up the ball, you walk up over the hole, and you put the ball in the hole. But that's no fun. And so to make it play, make it a game, we create these unnecessary obstacles. Well, no, you have to hit it with your club, and you have to do all of this and that.

Yeah, creating unnecessary obstacles and overcoming them voluntarily, not out of compulsion. Defines play, defines games.

Kevin (38:37.333)
Yeah versus work where you kind of have to work to pay the bills But play is not necessary at all But ironically if it's part of our identity as grasshoppers it is strength It is kind of necessary if we're going to be ourselves. I will add that but that's a subtle necessity

Daniel (38:42.289)
Right. Right.

Right. So.

Daniel (38:53.909)
It's an unnecessary. Yes, it's a necessary unnecessary, which we're going to get into next episode. But yes, yes. So, so, so what I hear you saying, Kevin is so one of the major things marks of play we get from this is that it is. It's voluntary, right? We're not, we're not compelled to do it. Yeah.

Kevin (38:59.765)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (39:20.209)
You often bring this up about like professional sports, right? Or game designers, this sense of...

Kevin (39:25.91)
Yeah, because they really are in this middle ground or a professional musician that they most likely started out as a hobby and that's not denigrating in any way. Like they started out just for the sheer pleasure of it as a something to do. You know, they were playing basketball as a kid or they were playing an instrument and then it became a job. So I find that really interesting versus say accounting. No one starts that as a hobby.

Daniel (39:30.801)
Right, right.

Daniel (39:36.977)
No.

Daniel (39:46.417)
Right.

Kevin (39:51.925)
You might enjoy numbers or balancing things or getting things right, but there's something no one starts out as a lawyer as a hobby. So some jobs are purely trained plumbers, right? It doesn't arise out of something that is playful and it's not a business of play, but sports and music and board game production is play that is also work. Yes, I find that really

Daniel (40:05.949)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (40:19.421)
Hmm.

Kevin (40:21.365)
Difficult and I think musicians are interesting and probably difficult and some musicians will reflect on that how It's hard to continue to create because they have to pay the bills So the classic would be the older band that wants to write new material But the truth is people only pay for them to tour and play the old songs over and over again So you end up playing the same song ten thousand times so it started out as a spontaneous moment of

Daniel (40:33.213)
Right. Right. You know, it's.

Kevin (40:50.773)
careful crafting out of love might become, you know, this albatross around your neck of, god, we've got to play, you know, Do You Want to Rock Again or something.

Daniel (41:01.405)
Right, right, right. I have a friend, I have a friend Paul who was working stage set up at a, I think it was maybe a state fair.

sometime in the recent past and Survivor came with their hit Eye of the Tiger and which is a fantastic song. And he set up for the band and he just tells the story of how they go through the whole concert and then at the end they say, well, there's probably one more song you're wanting to hear. And then their closing song is Eye of the Tiger. And you're right, I'm sure on the one hand, I mean, how amazing is it to have a hit that's so wonderful and everybody knows, but it's gotta be kind of burdensome too.

Kevin (41:33.365)
Right.

Daniel (41:44.605)
It must feel less. Yeah, right. Right.

Kevin (41:44.853)
Yeah, it's now involuntary. They must play it. If they didn't play it, people would be outraged. They can't, they want to hear that one song from the 80s. So it's now 40 something years old.

Daniel (41:56.157)
So it's interesting how often money seems to be the distinguishing mark between play and work. You know, like if, and I don't know what to do with that, but like if we, if, and between what's voluntary and not voluntary, we, we rightly or wrongly, we seem to feel like, you know, if we do something for not, if we're not doing something for money, it's voluntary. If we are doing something for money,

Kevin (41:59.637)
Mm.

Yes.

Daniel (42:25.405)
it isn't volunteering. In fact, I think it's probably how we define volunteering most of the time in our corner of the world.

Kevin (42:30.421)
So what? Yeah, you're right. Volunteer amateur sports versus professional, whether you are paid or not. Yeah.

Daniel (42:36.893)
And so there's a sense of being paid that makes something feel.

Daniel (42:45.445)
necessarily a compulsion, that you're compelled to do it. If we're saying that something stops being voluntary when you receive money for it, maybe? That's weird.

Kevin (42:48.661)
Right.

Kevin (42:53.876)
Yeah. Well, money is the ultimate base, exchangeable good that can be used for either life's necessities or its pleasures. I think it's just, it's just the power of money is a way to express a value for something, as well as it's instantly interchangeable. You could take money and you could give it to a charity or you could buy a soccer ball or you could buy a banana like...

You could go gamble it. I mean, you can do so many things with money and the money never cares, right? It's just a thing. It's like the ultimate weird exchangeable fiction. In the sense that it resides really based on the respect towards a certain country's currency. And then it even gets weird because I thought about money. I've actually preached a little bit about it too. Because it is this weird concept that now it's even stranger. It's on your phone.

Daniel (43:26.046)
Right, right.

Daniel (43:30.846)
Right. Right.

Daniel (43:42.686)
Mm -hmm.

Kevin (43:50.516)
Like sitting a number so more than half of all banking jobs now or IT jobs because banks are basically IT companies because Money is an IT product. It sits on computer servers. Isn't that weird like you you can use currency, but it's very you know, it's more and more unusual Places are cash free So yeah money is a strange thing, but I think it is this ultimate exchangeable Prioritization, you know Daniel likes apples so he

Daniel (43:56.35)
Is that right?

Daniel (44:03.326)
That's so interesting.

Daniel (44:07.902)
Wow.

Daniel (44:11.838)
That fit.

Daniel (44:17.566)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (44:20.276)
buys lots of apples. So your money is also a reflection of your priorities. So I think that's why. And so you end up doing it for more priorities, I guess.

Daniel (44:21.854)
Right, right.

Daniel (44:25.854)
Hmm.

Daniel (44:31.294)
Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. We should explore the relationship between money and play in a future episode too, maybe. I want to write it out. All right, so.

Kevin (44:39.86)
Ding ding ding ding ding money and play write that down in turn Felicia write down RE money play hyper hyper dash Felicia wake up Felicia those are my nachos put those down that was not in the contract

Daniel (44:51.585)
I'm writing it down, sir. okay. I'll write it down, sir. Okay. So, so those are the, so those are the first two marks of play, we might say. So it's the instrumentality of it. It's not a means to an end. It is voluntary. It's not compelled. And then the last one, again,

from Bernard Suit's definition is that it is unnecessary, right? It is unnecessary. And that's closely tied to this idea that it is not a means to an end because the world will always say the play is not needed, that it is not needed, right? And so we say it's unnecessary. Right, right.

Kevin (45:40.788)
And to some degree they're right. Right? Like it's, you know, their basic needs, Maslov's needs or whatever is shelter, food, that kind of water, that kind of stuff. But, but, but Daniel, go ahead, finish it. What? But what?

Daniel (45:52.832)
Right, right.

Daniel (45:56.919)
Yes. No, no, no. I just watch it. Now you go. You're on it. You're on a roll. Do it. Do it.

Kevin (46:01.012)
No, but I wanna see if you're thinking what I'm thinking.

Kevin (46:05.844)
but it is needed because...

Otherwise we lose our humanity. Right? Like that's the weird catch. Right?

Daniel (46:11.904)
Yeah, right. Right. And yes, and I would say exactly, and we'll get into this later episode too, and I would say theologically, we also lose the concept of grace too. I mean, if everything is by necessity and by earning, there's no room for grace in that kind of world.

Kevin (46:28.18)
Bright. Bright.

Play is very gracious in that it is empowering and free. Grace is playful in a way that work in a sense of earning or exchange value. Yeah. Play is not the same as grace, but they are intimate companions, I would say.

Daniel (46:38.592)
Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (46:43.106)
Yeah.

Daniel (46:48.865)
Yeah, yeah. And the...

And the grasshopper has a dream about this that is haunting. For me, it's going with those haunting parts of the book where early on the grasshopper tells his disciples that he had this dream where he goes around the world trying to convince people that everything they're doing is a game or is play. He goes to tell the trumpet player in the orchestra, well, what you're doing is play.

And he goes to the carpenter and he says, what you're doing is play. And he goes to the banker and says, what you're doing is play. And he goes to the doctor and says, what you're doing is play. And he says, in his dream, when people are convinced of his argument, they instantly disappear. And he can't, he can't figure out what to do with that. And then at the end, he realizes why that is, is because we cannot bear the awful or is it wonderful?

truth that from a cosmic sense everything we do is unnecessary.

Kevin (48:01.62)
than in the scheme of the cosmos and the history of the world.

It's not gonna matter.

Daniel (48:08.065)
Yeah, right. You know, if I could drop over right now and the world's going to keep turning, the universe is going to keep spinning.

Kevin (48:16.18)
So weird, so weird to really ponder, yeah.

Daniel (48:20.418)
Yeah.

Daniel (48:26.337)
And if that's true, right, if everything from a cosmic sense is unnecessary, then...

everything from a cosmic sense can be kind of playful too.

Kevin (48:41.332)
Right. You might as well. You might as well, friend. Yeah, that's it. I need to go and reread that bit. I remember being puzzled a few times. I did read it, but your explanation sounds spot on. Like, I need to go revisit it. But yeah, that's the weird bit is is we kind of can't handle the reality of play. Despite its essential thing for us, we are such strange creatures, we we can't handle.

Daniel (48:43.937)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin (49:11.476)
the awfulness that maybe everything is play, which reminds me there's a lovely line in the Quran where God says, don't you know human that this whole world is a game, like a prelude to the next world. And so that's a thought in the Quran. And it also makes me think of, if you know, C .S. Lewis's wonderful The Great Divorce, which is about heaven and hell. It's not about a marriage of a man or two people. It's about heaven and hell.

Daniel (49:25.793)
Yeah.

Daniel (49:37.313)
Okay, okay. Okay, okay.

Kevin (49:41.14)
But it ends with a dream of like chess pieces and then it dissolves. So it also picks up an idea of a game as a dream sequence.

Daniel (49:44.673)
Mm. So it ends with a dream about chess and then it dissolves?

Kevin (49:52.308)
Vaguely like there's this sense that everything they're doing like they are actually pawns and sort of a larger cosmic thing I need to reread it. I'm grasping my dim memory banks, but yeah

Daniel (50:05.7)
That's so neat. And honestly, I mean, spoilers, if you don't want to find out, maybe I shouldn't say this to you, find out the end of the Psalm for the Wild -Built, maybe I won't go into details, but they wrestle with this kind of stuff at the end of that. It's a novella, but it's of that work as well, the sense of, we can't stand the idea of.

Daniel (50:37.219)
an ultimate purposelessness or a necessity in our lives.

Daniel (50:49.859)
Yeah, and that's a tough thing to wrap my head around.

Kevin (50:55.22)
So we truly are strange creatures in the universe.

Daniel (50:59.043)
Yeah.

Kevin (51:00.628)
We are creatures that need to work and find what we do so very important and we can't handle any any suggestion it's not and yet if we actually pursue that completely we kind of go little batty because we actually need to play. Yeah, so our priorities are so strange. We're so kind of bent.

Daniel (51:18.659)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel (51:26.155)
Yeah. It does make us unique. This is, I might give away too much. That is a line from this book, A Psalm for the Wild Built. The robot says, you know, like there's no other, what a strange animal humans are because there's no other animal that feels like they have to find their purpose in life. A bird doesn't feel like it has to find its purpose in life. A dog doesn't feel like it has to find its purpose in life. A crab, you know, its purpose is to be a crab.

Kevin (51:28.66)
Yeah.

Kevin (51:32.916)
Kevin (51:45.684)
Wait.

Daniel (51:51.491)
You know, the purpose of the bird is to be a bird.

Kevin (51:54.708)
Mm -hmm.

Daniel (51:58.403)
some ways, why do we give ourselves, take on this oppressiveness in a way of trying to do that?

Kevin (52:05.588)
Yeah Well, i'm thinking not to go too deep but i'm thinking of pascal you ever read pascal 17th century catholic mathematician Christian Philosopher. Yeah, he's really interesting. But he well he just plays on this that we are kind of these weird monsters Because we are half animal half angel type like we've we can soar but we also are capable of such Kind of cruelties and he's got the famous line that

Daniel (52:12.55)
No, no, no, please say more.

Daniel (52:30.086)
Mmm. Mmm.

Kevin (52:35.092)
We would all of our problems would go away if we could just sit quietly in a room type thing like which you know We were just such strange creatures and he ultimately leads it from a religious Christian point of view that leads him to say We can only find our rest in God. So it's very st. Augustine if you're familiar with that thinking but he revels a bit more and how strange we are that we're

Daniel (52:40.55)
Mmm... Mmm... Mmm...

Daniel (52:54.47)
Nice, okay.

Kevin (53:03.22)
We are terrified of some things, but we don't want to face real reality either.

Daniel (53:08.326)
Mm, mm.

Kevin (53:09.972)
Right, so we are terrified of not showing up for work and getting fired, but then we don't consider the issues of final destination or heaven and hell type thing. Like we worry about the wrong things.

Daniel (53:20.55)
Hmm. Interesting. Right. Right. I like.

Kevin (53:26.228)
Anyway, yeah, so a little off topic, but Pascal, if you're curious, I'm sure it's all on the internet, and he's very readable. He's, you know, he's not a hard read, given that he's 400 years ago, but he's very interesting. He's very wild.

Daniel (53:32.23)
Cool.

Daniel (53:39.046)
Thank you. No, I'm glad you brought that up. That's very relevant. Thank you.

Kevin (53:42.548)
Yeah, I think the programming language is named after him because he was a brilliant mathematician. If you're familiar with Pascal, I think it's because he's also a math guy.

Daniel (53:47.558)
interesting, okay.

that's cool. That's cool. So Kevin, bringing it all together. What is our what would what's this definition of play that we're that would say what are the so these so what is play and bringing all this conversation together? Yeah.

Kevin (53:56.216)
Bring it together, Daniel.

Kevin (54:04.791)
So play is not work. It's not work and work is not play. So it's the opposite, kind of, although they can, they can strangely influence one another. But work, again, doesn't save us and work is always a means to an end. Play, strangely, is without a means to an end. It's non -instrumental. It doesn't do something to get somewhere else. It's its own reward. It's voluntary.

something you choose to participate in or else it would be oppressive in work and it's unnecessary.

Daniel (54:41.064)
Mmm.

Kevin (54:43.095)
Yeah, and and I would add that it accepts certain weird obstacles like color this but stay in the lines or When it monopoly but you have to go around this direction and you can't just take money from the bank, right? You have to follow these rules See if you can see how high you can climb in this tree Or hopscotch hop on one leg in these boxes and clap your hands, right?

Daniel (54:44.456)
That's so good.

Daniel (54:50.984)
Right, right, yeah.

Daniel (54:56.648)
Right, right. Right, right.

Daniel (55:04.488)
Right, it consists of.

Yeah, yeah. Play consists of unnecessary obstacles of.

Kevin (55:12.215)
Yeah. Play with these trucks, but don't just throw them against the wall. Roll them around, right? So every child, every person accepts certain weird things about how things work.

Daniel (55:24.264)
Yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. And so from that definition, all sorts of things can be play, right? If we volunteer at a community orchestra or choir that can be play or a day of golf or walking in the woods or writing a love poem or spontaneous dancing.

Kevin (55:25.783)
rules. Yeah.

Kevin (55:36.215)
Mm -hmm.

Kevin (55:42.679)
Yeah, and again, don't let the idea of organization confuse you, because play doesn't just mean running around hollering or something. Sometimes we think play has to be real.

Daniel (55:52.36)
Yeah.

Kevin (55:56.539)
What am I trying to, like kind of out of the blue? Yeah, unstructured. But play can be very much structured, such as participating in a community choir or community play, community actors. Like you have meetings, you have rehearsals, you have practice. That's just like playing Monopoly, it's structured, but that doesn't mean it's not play.

Daniel (55:58.92)
Unstructured or spontaneous. Yeah Yeah, yeah

Daniel (56:15.979)
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin (56:21.05)
Because if play is always unstructured, then it would just be random events. But it must have structure, or else it would be total randomness, and we would just be weirded out by it. Blue! 15. Right? Just random events.

Daniel (56:30.667)
Right, right.

Daniel (56:36.651)
You know, there's, you know, they, they, I think people who know a lot more about play and play therapists and things like that will talk about something called unstructured play, the importance of unstructured play for children and adults as well. But my impression of that is that even that there is structure. It's just structure that is generated at the moment. Right? I mean, it's, yeah. It's, it's like, like auto -tealic. Yeah. It generates its own structure. Yeah.

Kevin (56:50.202)
Hmm.

Kevin (57:00.314)
Yes Yeah, that's fair It's autotill it so that's like driving the car like I could sort of and then well, maybe it's not but driving the car and then thinking about a Speech you have to give or a sermon or something you have to do That's kind of arises from the moment. So yeah, maybe it's unstructured So you are given some balls and you figure out what to do But but yeah, eventually we will come up with some sort of a pattern

Daniel (57:07.883)
Yeah.

Daniel (57:29.803)
Yeah.

Kevin (57:30.778)
So it could be structured or unstructured, but it's all play. Yeah.

Daniel (57:36.459)
And you know, these kinds of activities, they're just, they, we're talking about, I mean, you said this earlier, Kevin, I mean, they're the, you said at the beginning of the episode that, you know, philosophers and thinkers and spiritualists have said for ages that these are the kind of activities that allow us to be the most human, right? That bring us the most ironically meaning.

Daniel (58:07.022)
And yet we call them unnecessary. And so in a way they are the necessary unnecessary to be human, right? And it's kind of what we're talking about in our next episode, which is that we are wired for play, right? That to be human, it is necessary for us to engage in all of this unnecessary. Yeah.

Kevin (58:29.371)
Yeah. We are the grasshopper, despite having to be ants -like. We ultimately are grasshoppers and not ants. That's the point of the grasshopper book. The revenge of the grasshopper. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're wired for that. And you can disagree with it and argue, but you're wrong. Right? I mean, you're just wrong. Like, we have to play. Sorry, Daniel, what were you going to say?

Daniel (58:43.661)
except

Daniel (58:48.877)
Hahaha

Yeah, no, no, I was just gonna say, no, we are, we are grasshoppers, not ant, except for my, my aunt Susan, who actually is, is my aunt, but it was bad. Yeah, yeah, no, she, she embraces the, yeah. So that's next episode. We're wired for play. She is, she is. I periodically will bring grasshopper food to her. I don't know what.

Kevin (59:01.563)
And is a grasshopper interesting very strange story, but Yeah, I think she actually is a grasshopper. She lives on your shelf

Kevin (59:16.155)
Do you know, she gives the worst Christmas presents.

Daniel (59:19.757)
She does. You know what her Christmas present is? She just makes that chirping sound all night long. And she thinks it's an act of love, but it keeps us up all night. And we're like, come on, come on, we're trying to sleep. And she's like, don't you like it?

Kevin (59:22.075)
What?

Kevin (59:27.003)
Right. Right. Right, right, exactly. And you think it's a Christmas gift, but you're not sure she understands calendars. So it's unclear whether it is a gift.

Daniel (59:37.357)
Right. Because also she's a grasshopper. Yeah. Okay. So our next episode, we are wired for play, the necessity of the unnecessary. So Kevin, I have an idea for our sign off. Was there anything else before our sign off?

Kevin (59:42.332)
Not in a metaphorical grasshopper.

Kevin (59:53.659)
Yeah.

Kevin (59:58.267)
Okay.

Well, I want to say thanks to John for listener comment and love to hear that. So how can they do that, Daniel?

Daniel (01:00:05.325)
yeah.

Yes, they can reach us at playsavestheworld .com. playsavestheworld .com. We love to hear from you all. So yes, please, please let us know what you think. Agree, disagree? Yeah. But Kevin, I think we should, go ahead. Yes.

Kevin (01:00:22.971)
Questions thoughts ideas stories anecdotes. Yeah, let us know we'd love to hear hear from you Yeah, and I will add to One other bit. Do you think this podcast is player work?

Daniel (01:00:36.815)
We're not getting paid for it.

Kevin (01:00:40.155)
Yeah, that was going to make a little fundraising pitch. We're definitely playing and we're actually losing money on it and that's okay. But if you want to help us not lose money on it, you can, you can send us a little cheddar as the kids say via our Patreon and links will be so Patron help help cover some of the costs of podcast hosting and things like that. So yeah, thank you.

Daniel (01:00:43.279)
Ha ha!

We are, we are, yeah, yeah.

Daniel (01:00:54.443)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (01:01:04.079)
We would appreciate that so much. Yeah, yeah. It is not without some cost to produce this podcast. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for that.

Kevin (01:01:13.819)
Yes, but we do it because we want to and it is play so we are we are prepared for those costs. But yeah, if you want to help let it reach out.

Daniel (01:01:22.479)
I think we should sign off as Daleks. Kevin? It was my idea. It is logical.

Kevin (01:01:25.659)
Was that your thing?

Kevin (01:01:32.955)
Strange, I have lost my Dalekness.

Daniel (01:01:35.535)
No! Now I'm just like a fool. Now I'm just talking like a -

Kevin (01:01:39.93)
Wait, wait, no, Dalek transformation and commencing in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Agitation complete. Please destroy Kevin Skywalker as inferior product of Kevinness. Exterminate. What would Luke Skywalker do against the Dalek?

Daniel (01:01:47.087)
four, three, two, transformation complete.

Daniel (01:01:59.567)
Exterminate. Exterminate.

Daniel (01:02:06.383)
I don't know if the plunger and the lightsaber are really fair. It's like bringing a knife to a gun. Well, but they do have lasers. They do have lasers too, don't they? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, these are not the...

Kevin (01:02:19.001)
Yeah, right. What's like bringing a plunger to a gunfight? They do they've introduced some lasers. Yes Maybe the plunger has anti -force properties in the in the rubber Not no one knows it just moves. I mean it literally is a plunger the BBC had no funding That's what's great about Doctor Who they they said you see this door box That's a spaceship and you see this weird metal thing with a plunger. That's a monster

Daniel (01:02:31.407)
What does the plunger do? Yeah, I've never seen the plunger actually used. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel (01:02:44.111)
Right, right.

Daniel (01:02:49.295)
It could be that the Daleks just have a lot of clogged toilets. And so they're just always walking around in the plungers that they just...

Kevin (01:02:50.009)
That's all it took.

Kevin (01:02:55.833)
But then how do they use it because they'd have to lean down because the plunger is in front so they have to lean it takes you know, many Daleks it Do you know how many I have Dalek joke you ready how many Daleks does it take to unpludge a toilet? To ha ha ha ha ha

Daniel (01:03:01.071)
Someone must tip me over. Tip me over into the toilet.

Daniel (01:03:16.207)
How many?

Kevin (01:03:21.785)
I am playing at the embassy suites all week come or be exterminated

Daniel (01:03:26.095)
Try the chicken!

Daniel (01:03:31.823)
Okay, I think we probably ought to end this.

Kevin (01:03:34.937)
Goodbye everyone. We love you. Bye