Kevin (00:03.125) This week on Board Game Faith, Religion, and Board Game Design with Shem Phillips of Garfield Games. This is Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Kevin (00:24.713) Bit of a lag there. It always does preview. I'll cut this out. Daniel (00:28.17) There it comes. Kevin (00:33.001) button likes to go for the preview. Anyway, hello and welcome. My name is Kevin. Daniel (00:35.17) Yeah, okay, that's fine. Daniel (00:41.086) My name's Daniel. Shem Phillips (00:43.877) I guess I'm Shane Phillips. Daniel (00:44.106) And we are... Kevin (00:45.649) Yeah, we are talking in three time zones and two continents. Pretty amazing. Yes, welcome and thank you for making a little time for us. Yeah, yeah, and we wanted to chat a bit about your journey, both as a your religious journey and your board game design journey, and especially inspiring your link from your testimonial at church, maybe. Daniel (00:50.123) Welcome, Shem. Daniel (00:56.93) That is. Kevin (01:15.425) about a year ago or so. So we will link that in the links below. But I thought one question to start with, you like to do trilogies, which is kind of odd in board game design. That's kind of fair. It's something, well, I don't mean it in a bad way. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thing. And what I've found playing them, it is, is it almost feels like an iteration, like you're... Shem Phillips (01:33.125) Yeah, I'm okay to be called odd, that's fine. Daniel (01:39.447) It's unique. Kevin (01:44.737) playing with a design bit and then you change to a different location and a different interest. Is that fair or is there any thought there or why trilogies? Shem Phillips (01:55.525) Yeah, I kind of stumbled into it with shipwrights and then people were asking for like, what is there another game coming about raiding with these ships? And that led me to this to the trilogy kind of model. And then with the West and the South, we were far more intentional. So it is very much like we, with architects, we discovered this virtue corruption kind of mechanical theme, I guess you could say, in the game. And we thought we could explore this more with future games. So we had the corruption and the debts that came in Paladins, and then even the deeds and the good stuff that came with Viscounts. So it allows us to kind of play in that similar mechanical space, but still design a fresh game. So it's fun for us because we can kind of enjoy that game, I guess that world a bit more longer than just here's a one-off game. here's a one-off game. Daniel (02:42.15) Mm-hmm. Do you find that you might have like a mechanism that you'd want to try in a game, but you think, oh, well, we're going to have another game so we can push that off to the next one or something like that? Yeah. Shem Phillips (02:54.417) Yeah, it's totally how it could work. I'm not sure if there's an example of that, but I think with the Virtue kind of stuff especially, like there's probably things we thought, oh, that doesn't quite work, and then maybe later down the line, you're like, actually, that idea we had a while ago could work for this one. That happens in all our games anyway. We've got like, there's one mechanism we have. Daniel (02:59.116) Yeah. Daniel (03:06.686) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (03:13.553) which we tried it in Paladins, we tried it in Viscounts, we tried it in Wayfarers. We haven't even used it yet, but we've got this idea of this like, kind of training your workers, kaiapikina, some of that. One day it'll make it into a game, but not yet. So, yeah. Daniel (03:25.523) So it hasn't made the final cut in any of the games. Okay, okay. Yeah. Shem Phillips (03:28.441) Yeah, no. One day. Kevin (03:31.141) It's almost like a book, right? Like you have different little bits that didn't work, and then you save it for the next one, right? And even the expansions are a bit of an iteration, like playing with some of the ideas. So that's... Shem Phillips (03:34.929) Yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (03:43.741) Yeah, expansions are fun. They're more of a service to the fans than they like us trying to make something new. But it is fun to go back like a year or two later and revisit a design and think, how would we make this better now with all the additional plays we've had and the fun we've had with the game since. Daniel (03:51.192) Hmm. Daniel (03:57.386) Hmm Kevin (04:05.246) Mm-hmm. Mm. In your testimonial, you discuss the power of music and lyrics. So I don't know if you'd wanna say a bit more about, like what's the role of music and lyrics in your life today? Shem Phillips (04:17.885) Yeah, I'm a big music fan. I grew up playing, I taught myself to play bass. I played drums as a kid, but I can't play now. So I've learned guitar and bass and then got into bands. Lots of rock and punk and metal kind of bands, hardcore bands growing up. And I always loved lyrics, especially from like a faith point of view I love the heavier Christian middle bands Strong Arm and Zeo and stuff back in the Tooth and Nails solid state days And just the power that was in those lyrics the emotion and the truth behind them I always clung to those so even now still I just love like listening to songs that have real powerful lyrics I still like music just for music as well. There's some bands I listen to they have terrible lyrics But you know when there's really good lyrics it just makes the song that much better. So I've always gravitated towards any kind of like poetic writing that has that, that gets the emotions going, gets the feeling going. I just, I don't know, I always enjoyed it. It's another creative endeavour like board game design, I guess. Similar kind of thing. Daniel (05:19.158) Yeah, because you write music as well too, right? Shem Phillips (05:22.129) Not so much these days, but yeah, I still enjoy riding when I do. Daniel (05:23.614) Okay. Yeah. I wanted to ask in, yeah, this testimonial that we're talking about, this wonderful sermon that's online that you give at your church, you talk about being a, you describe yourself as a nerd lyric, a lyric nerd or a nerd lyric, a lyric nerd. Nerd lyric is something else. But and I love that because that's something. Shem Phillips (05:41.084) Yeah. Kevin (05:42.217) Ha ha ha. Daniel (05:53.75) we talk about in our family sometimes too, that just give me a good lyric and it can make up for a lot of other, maybe other things in the song. But you mentioned a few, but I was wondering, are there some artists or bands that are kind of the pinnacle of good lyric writing for you that you especially admire their abilities to turn some good lyrics? Shem Phillips (06:19.026) Yeah, definitely. Shem Phillips (06:23.357) Yeah, so in the Christian music space, My Epic are one of the best bands, their lyrics are amazing. My Epic, they're kind of like a alternative rock kind of style band. Very biblical, you feel like you're listening to scripture basically. Strong Arm is one of my favorite old time Christian hardcore bands. Their lyrics are just bonkers, so good. And then for more creative stuff, the band Me Without You I Really Love. Daniel (06:29.327) Mmm, my epic. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (06:36.759) Wow. Daniel (06:41.655) Yeah. Shem Phillips (06:48.337) He quotes a lot of different stuff, not always Christian, but various like authors and other kind of books he quotes but really deep and almost too deep to the point like what is he actually saying in this bit but I love the way he crafts the melodies with the kind of the timing of the words that kind of stuff the phonetics of the words Me without you, it's all one word, me without you They're very arty Kevin (06:55.668) Mm-hmm. Daniel (07:07.178) And what was the name of the last one? I'm sorry. Me without you. Thank you. Kevin (07:11.957) me without you. What do you think makes something Christian besides quoting scripture or certain phrases? What do you think would make something authentically Christian? Shem Phillips (07:24.253) Yeah, I don't know if things can be Christian. I think people can be Christian. But I think it's more the intent behind the artwork, I guess, is probably what makes it classed as a Christian thing. If it's a person of faith who's trying to, I guess, give a message of some sort, or at least some truth, or some hope, then I guess it has that front to it. But it can be. Kevin (07:28.372) Uh-huh. Daniel (07:28.427) Hmm. Kevin (07:35.189) Hmm. Shem Phillips (07:50.993) There's songs out there that don't even have anything biblical in them or any kind of, I guess, direct wordature used but it's very obviously like, oh that's speaking about truth and faith and things like that like the books of Narnia and stuff for example it's like, we know the parallels, that's very obvious but there's songs that are far more contemporary which is like very obviously singing about Jesus or something else you know, that's like, clearly it's a Christian song or intended for Christians I suppose Daniel (08:05.974) Mm-hmm. Kevin (08:06.346) Right. Daniel (08:08.759) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (08:08.833) Mm-hmm. Daniel (08:18.346) Yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (08:20.434) Yeah. Kevin (08:23.701) Do you think there's a bit of that with Ezra and Nehemiah that's coming up in the sense of it's a biblical theme and it is about I guess rebuilding which is kind of a spiritual theme, right? Like building, rebuilding your yourself. Shem Phillips (08:36.513) Yeah, I mean this is like a passion project for us because we do games about Vikings and fighting and stuff which isn't very Christian. So it's fun to finally do a game that like has a very direct biblical kind of background but we were very intentional about making it not a religious game. It's a historical game, heavily inspired by the scripture of course, but we wanted to make sure it didn't isolate people and or... Kevin (08:55.03) Sure. Shem Phillips (09:03.101) A couple of people were out saying, oh, they don't want that game because it's a Bible game or a Christian game or a Jewish game. So we've tested a lot and given to people who aren't of any faith. And they've enjoyed it because it's a solid game and it's an interesting theme regardless of your beliefs. But I couldn't shy away. The introduction to the game is like paraphrased from scripture. So we weren't being, we're not hiding it. We're also not throwing it in people's faces as well. Kevin (09:20.414) Right. Daniel (09:26.37) Mmm. Daniel (09:32.338) If I'm asked, did you decide to make a Bible themed game first and then kind of find a story of, you know, books in the Bible you thought would fit that well or was it Ezra and Nehemiah first and you said, oh, we got to make a game about Ezra and Nehemiah. Shem Phillips (09:50.441) Well, we've done, it's in our ancient anthology line. So we've done three games in that line already, which is set in the Scythians, the sort of the late Romans, almost English, and the Chinese. So we were looking for new civilizations to kind of build games around. And about 10 plus years ago, I had been working on a game called Nehemiah, because I wanted to do a game in that theme. It's hard to find good biblical stories that aren't about human failure. Daniel (09:54.102) Hmm. Yeah. Daniel (10:12.181) Oh, I need it. Shem Phillips (10:19.197) because most of them are you know it's about it's about us struggling and god you know and god like basically coming through so even though there is a lot of bad stuff that Ezra and Emira do towards the end of the books they make stupid decisions there is still this like humans doing good things they're building stuff they're creating stuff which is easy to gamify it's hard to gamify like Kevin (10:21.239) That would preach, wouldn't it? Yeah. Daniel (10:21.469) That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah. Kevin (10:32.214) Hmm Daniel (10:38.894) Hmm. Kevin (10:41.121) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (10:43.149) you all failed so God will pick up the pieces for you. Yeah so it's a great game, it's a great story for a game I guess, that's the best way to put it. Kevin (10:46.622) Right. Daniel (10:49.986) Hmm Kevin (10:52.341) I think it's really ingenious because it is biblical. It is a clear Euro game because you're building something, and it's a story of a people that are trying to rebuild. But you could also take it as a message of rebuilding your soul, rebuilding yourself, rebuilding your beliefs, so it really translates in all sorts of avenues. So, yeah, I think it's great. Shem Phillips (11:07.986) Yeah. Daniel (11:17.322) And I love that insight about there aren't a lot of stories in the Bible about like, because you're right, I mean, games, we've talked about this in other episodes, games, you know, very often are kind of like these adventures and like agency, right? Like, you know, trying to kind of explore kind of your ability to do this or try this new ability or whatever. And you're right, it's you can't really build a game around, oh, I'm powerless and vulnerable, you know, or, yeah, that's a great- Kevin (11:22.681) I'm sorry. Shem Phillips (11:42.397) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:42.515) Mm-hmm. Daniel (11:46.102) That's a great point, which a lot of Biblical stories are about, you know, kind of the powerlessness and the vulnerability of the characters in the story. Kevin (11:47.074) or... Shem Phillips (11:50.249) Yeah. Shem Phillips (11:54.761) There's always heroes that pop up, you know, like you've got the Joshua stories and Moses and stuff. You could do games around that, but there's so much reason why, like, there's so much failure in those stories still. But you can highlight, I guess, the good parts. But that's, I guess, for me... Kevin (12:06.763) Hmm. Daniel (12:08.729) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (12:09.332) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (12:12.701) that's kind of like taking away the actual meaning of the story. It's not what the Bible's about, like the overall story of the Bible is not about human endeavour and achievement. So it's kind of hard to gamify it a lot. Daniel (12:21.102) Hmm. Kevin (12:21.689) That's so true. That's, yeah. You could do a game about Peter where you're, you know, Jesus' right-hand man, and then you betray him, and then you're kind of the hero for the book of Acts till Paul shows up and then you disappear. Very unsatisfying game. Daniel (12:25.24) Mm-hmm. Daniel (12:37.063) Ha ha! Shem Phillips (12:37.276) Yeah. Daniel (12:40.558) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Kevin (12:44.201) Wow, very interesting. Why, what's your interest in metal? It's, besides maybe being born in the late 20th, or I guess your late 20th century-ish. Yeah, yeah, metal music. Shem Phillips (12:56.109) in metal music. Oh yeah um I think I was brave maybe 14, 15 when a friend of mine he's probably like 10 years older than me gave me a bunch of tapes like cassette tapes with um with old music on them um Living Sacrifice, Strong Arm, Zeo. old school hardcore bands and that's when I kind of fell in love with that stuff. I was also getting into a lot of punk bands like MXPX, Slick Shoes back then. So I've always like, ever since that age, leant towards that more alternative punk, hardcore, metal kind of scene. I think I still like it today, I think because of its honesty. I often bounce off pop music because it's very like happy chappy and you know like it's a bit fake. Kevin (13:27.943) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (13:39.957) Not to say there aren't some good pop songs, but for me I like the grit, I like the reality of like life's tough, but there's hope, that kind of feeling. So I don't know, I mean I love just the sound of it too, the aggression and the energy that kind of music has, but lyrically it's like there's a slight darkness but with the hope attached, which is in my eyes like a lot of what life is, you know, there's a lot of misery and a lot of hurt, but there's also this hope and this future ahead of us. So yeah. Kevin (13:45.249) Yeah. Ooh, that's good. Daniel (13:48.603) Mm-hmm. Kevin (14:02.773) Right. Kevin (14:07.541) Wow. Do you listen to that when you're working on games? Shem Phillips (14:12.497) Yeah, I mean, I have music on most of the time. I have, I actually go back to one of the oldest Zayo albums when I'm writing rule books because it's just like screaming. So I just can zone out and it's like, it's a, it's that nostalgic, like, I know the songs so well, I don't have to think about them. So I can just write rule books while I'm listening to do, you know. So it's, yeah. Ha, ha, ha. Kevin (14:15.881) Yeah, and it tends to be metal. Kevin (14:31.616) Right. Daniel (14:32.397) So the lyrics don't make their way into the rule books. They just, you can filter out that part. Right, right, right. Kevin (14:35.946) Right. Shem Phillips (14:36.109) Yeah, I guess I'm not trying to figure them out because I know what they are and they just kind of fly over me. Yeah. Whereas I'm listening to like more modern stuff that I'm into right now. I'm probably trying to listen to it more and focus on it because I'm enjoying the new kind of sounds. Yeah. Daniel (14:47.658) Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Kevin (14:49.358) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Wow. What's your favorite type of music, Daniel? Genre. Daniel (14:56.514) Oh my goodness, my favorite type of music genre. Oh, there's so much that I like. Kevin (14:57.678) Do you have one? Kevin (15:04.689) I do enjoy a bit of metal myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's about, it's something about the 80s, I guess. Daniel (15:07.382) You do it? Yeah, really? I didn't know that about you. That's cool. Any particular favorite bands? Well, when you came to visit us out in Missouri, you introduced us to Greta Van Fleet, which is a little metal. A little bit, a little bit maybe. And we've enjoyed them since. At least more glam rock. Yeah. Kevin (15:26.729) They are fun. Yeah, it's kind of a glamor rock or something, but yeah. Have you heard them shim? Credible and fleet. Shem Phillips (15:36.109) No, I haven't, but it's more the, is it more the hair middle kind of like, yeah, yeah. Yep. Kevin (15:40.177) Yeah, it's kind of Led Zeppelin-y, but the guy has amazing multi-octave singing and it has a real Led Zeppelin feel. Daniel (15:50.334) To answer your question, Kevin, right now, I think I'm kind of into, I'm kind of going through like a soul, soul funk phase. I've listened over the last half year or so of kind of digging back and kind of discovering music from the 60s and 70s, kind of in that funk era that I'm enjoying. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (16:01.012) Nice. Kevin (16:11.933) Yeah, there's a good beat to that. Nice, nice. Shem, one of the things you discussed very poignantly in your sermon testimonial is about the loss of your father, and you say some profound things about how religion shaped helped you come to grips with that loss, if that's fair. Do you want to... would you change any of that or add to that, or how does that work today, or would you summarize it? Shem Phillips (16:36.238) Yeah, I mean, yeah. Shem Phillips (16:42.533) Yeah, so I mean for those who haven't, I guess haven't seen it, my dad died when I was 13, almost 14. Drowned during my cousin's 21st birthday party kayaking down a river. So it was a massive shock. I grew up in a very like typical Christian family I think. Great parents, good school, good friends, no real drama in our family. So it was this massive shock of like, well life can change suddenly. And this like sort of pre-teen, early teen boy. My brother was two years older than me at the time. He still was I guess. That's how life works. But no, it was yeah, big, big shock. But yeah, I think because of my foundations as a kid growing up... Daniel (17:16.205) Hehehehe Shem Phillips (17:23.285) Even within the first few days of that happening, I had this weird piece about it of like, I feel like God's saying, I'll be your father, I'll protect you, I'll look after you, I'll provide for you. And that's just carried with me my whole life. So there's been moments throughout my life where I've gone like, you know, is that true? Do you really mean that? And then he's just proven himself to me time and time again. So I just cannot deny that he has and he's been faithful the whole time. So yeah, that's how it's been for me. Kevin (17:53.573) And how do you think about that today, like from day to day? Like, how does that influence today as you, I mean, still miss the presence of your father, your heavenly, your earthly father that is, yeah. Shem Phillips (18:06.789) Yeah, for sure. It's, I mean, it's, yeah, yeah. It's hard to know, because it's like, you have spent how many years now, like, 28 years, 27 years, something like that. So you kind of learn to live life as it is, and you, it's like, you can't imagine what it would be like having a dad as a teenager, or as a 20 year old, or whatever. So that is what life becomes. Anyone who's gone through loss would understand that, I guess, is you can't imagine the other side of that. Daniel (18:24.118) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (18:33.701) I think one of the biggest impacts that's had on me, I've seen God provide as a father throughout my life, is that with anything financial especially, for all like, for our family, I have much more of a like, kind of easy going kind of attitude to life. Like, doesn't matter what's gonna happen, He'll provide like, you know, my business could go under, that'd be fine, like life will go on and He'll provide. So it gives us a certain level of grace and like, I guess ease that takes away the stress of like worrying and striving and trying to make something for myself because I know that It's ultimately not up to me how my life plays out You know, it's we make decisions of course and we have to have the consequences of those But as far as like will I be able to feed my family this week? That's Ultimately like God will provide regardless. So That's that's my attitude and that's it's something I can't deny now. I guess I've seen too much, you know, I've seen too much of his provisions. So it's it makes my business a lot easier for me to work, to run because I'm not worried about it in that sense. So, yeah. Daniel (19:44.798) Yeah, I think you spoke a little bit about this in your sermon, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on, yeah, how that sense of God providing factored in or not into your decision to become a board game designer full time. I mean, I think you spoke about it was kind of a leap of faith sort of moment. Yes? Shem Phillips (20:10.205) Yeah, it totally was. So I went to Essen, the thing was the first time I went, I saw all these, like my German partners, my French partners, basically making my games in their languages and they're doing it full-time. And I was just one guy at the time thinking like, why can't I do this full-time? Like, surely I could just do this full-time if they're doing it full-time. So I went back, that was around October. I think by... I think it was December, I told my boss, like, I'm quitting. End of January, I'm gone. I'm going full-time with board games. But I had that kind of feeling of like, I've got to do it. If I don't do it, then do I really have faith? That kind of feeling of like, I've got to, you know, put my money where my mouth is kind of thing. And it was the perfect timing. Everything played out so well. But yeah, there definitely was a step of faith, I think. At that point we may have had just one kid, maybe two, very younger. So there was a lot of risk in that kind of thing, but in the back of my head I thought, well, if it all fails, I'll just go back to McDonald's and I'll start flipping back. Because, you know, so like I knew that whatever happened, there'd be something else to fall back to, I guess. But it was worth risking my current job to see like. Daniel (21:05.038) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:15.03) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (21:26.305) see if this plays out and yeah it definitely was that step of faith kind of moment for sure. Daniel (21:32.99) I love talking with people about those moments that they come to in life where they feel like they're just kind of taking this, they're stepping out in faith or kind of taking this leap of faith. And, you know, because it can be a really scary time, uncertain time. And, you know, I think a theme I often hear from folks and I know I've kind of experienced in my own life too is, you know, you get to this point and you think, well, you know, is this really... where God is leading me or is this just the pizza I ate last night? You know, just kind of just doing weird things in my brain. And you know, and if it is the pizza I ate last night, is it worth risking all of this? And oh, I don't know. And I don't know if you had any kind of wrestlings like that. And if so, how did you find a way to navigate through it? And how would you or people who maybe find themselves Shem Phillips (22:10.644) Yeah. Daniel (22:32.974) I'm wrestling with that today. I mean, what advice would you give on kind of navigating through those sort of feelings is like, is God really leading me to this or am I mixing up my signals here? Shem Phillips (22:45.361) Yeah, it's so hard to trust our own feelings, or even our own thoughts, I think, in life. We always make stupid choices, and we're led by our emotions far too much. It's hard to know, like, is it just a phase? Am I feeling this thing because I want to feel it, or because of other circumstances? I think for that one, and for any big decision that I've had to make, I try and look back for, like, I guess patterns or growth or, like... Daniel (22:49.846) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (22:54.23) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (23:10.551) Hmm. Shem Phillips (23:12.221) It's like the tide kind of thing, like seeing like I've seen him kind of slowly sow these things or do these things or things of certain doors have opened. And you can kind of see a pattern emerging, I suppose. It's easy to look back and see it for sure. Like look back five years ago. I can see how he's done things, but to try and look back like six months to a year, maybe. So I'd seen, for example, like. Daniel (23:17.447) Hmm Daniel (23:23.262) Oh, that's nice. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:25.777) Right, right. Shem Phillips (23:33.269) that our Kickstarter's were slowly growing. The first Kickstarter's we'd done were like getting more and more, though that's good to see. We're getting more and more fans growing and then I'd seen like certain opportunities open up here and there. Little bit of work with Weta Workshop here and there and all these things that kind of were growing. I could see things working out. So the only way I think I described it and when I spoke was like, I could kind of see his hand on it. That was kind of how I describe it. Like I could see that there was something that God was guiding me. He was sort of opening these things up. Daniel (23:56.47) Hmm Kevin (23:57.737) Hmm. Shem Phillips (24:03.263) you like this is the moment to jump like that kind of thing so yeah Daniel (24:06.039) That's cool. I like that. Yeah. Looking back on what's come before and you know, what has God done and how has God provided in the past and probably pretty good indication of God providing in the future and yeah. Shem Phillips (24:20.317) Yeah, it's hard to make a snap decision on something like, you've got to make this choice right now, like with no information. That's tough, and that probably takes a lot of prayer and counseling from other people and advice. But when you've seen this sort of pattern of growth, it's like, I'm pretty obvious that God's pushing me in this direction. Daniel (24:23.234) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:25.32) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:32.502) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:32.81) Right. Daniel (24:38.222) I like that, I like that. Thanks. Kevin (24:39.997) Right, sometimes the obstacle is our own fears in the end. Like the path becomes clearer, yeah. And the company's name somehow after your father and grandfather, is that right? On Discord, did I read that? After your dad, okay. Daniel (24:44.012) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (24:44.221) Yeah. Shem Phillips (24:54.109) Yeah, after my dad. So my dad's Gary Phillips, so Gar-Phil. And the bird from my logo is a robin, which is my mum's little name. So I thought she's gotta get some credit as well. Daniel (24:59.undefined) Ah, I missed that. Kevin (25:04.853) That's so nice. You've connected with your parents. Wow. That's very nice. And what about the, what are connections you might see within religion and games and game design? What do you, we hit some of that with Ezra Nehemiah but maybe in the sense of building. Shem Phillips (25:25.349) Yeah, there's often not much connection really to, unless it's a direct story like Esrinia Meyer, there's not much like religion in mechanisms, like it's like, mechanisms aren't inherently religious or non-religious so... I think with any kind of art form though, for me it's like it's an expression of worship. You know, we are made in his image and we are image bearers so anything we could create is reflecting his image so ideally I want to put out that image not some other image. So there's choices that I might make like certain themes I won't touch because they're not portraying a good image and then there's other themes I'd love to do like Eterne Amai where it's like this is clearly teaching some biblical kind of stories. Daniel (25:47.319) Hmm. Kevin (26:08.391) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (26:11.729) Yeah, I mean like Vikings and stuff, it's like, well what can you do with that? They weren't Christians, they were bloody and they were brutal, so it's more about just like delivering the best possible thing and it's providing also like a game for someone to enjoy that gives them some freedoms and joy in life beyond the theme, so it's more about the experience that you can create for people, so. Kevin (26:12.181) What? Daniel (26:16.932) Hehehehe Daniel (26:34.722) Hmm. Kevin (26:38.078) What themes would you not touch? Do you want to I'm just curious when you said that? Shem Phillips (26:41.657) Yeah, anything that's like occultish, witchcraft, that kind of stuff. Anything that, I guess from the outside, people who have no religion or faith would think, why? What's wrong with that? It's just fun, spooky stuff. But for a Christian, you're like, I know there's some reality to those themes. So there's things I wouldn't want to touch like that. Kevin (26:57.973) Hmm. Shem Phillips (27:00.657) I don't mind high fantasy, I don't mind things with wizards and stuff, or the rings kind of stuff because I guess in my mindset that is fantasy but when it comes down to more reality based spiritual stuff that's where I'm like, I don't want to touch that kind of stuff but when you think gory or overly sexual or that kind of stuff it's just, why would I want to play around with that kind of stuff why would I want my kids seeing that stuff on my board game shelves Kevin (27:16.829) Mm. Kevin (27:20.678) Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:34.324) You mentioned kind of exploring themes and games and early in the episode, you talked about the, and I forget now, I love it, but is it called the corruption? Corruption and virtue in architects. That they developed later games as well. But I mean, I know when I play architects, that's, I mean, it's kind of almost like a little meditation piece. You know, it's like, well. Daniel (28:01.97) ethically, what kind of person do I want to be? You know, kind of morally, what kind of... And I don't know if that was kind of intentional, but it's almost kind of invitational and like inviting the players to think about, yeah, I mean like how they want to interact with the world and what kind of person they want to be in the world. And I don't know, anyway, it kind of, that's how it strikes me, but I've appreciated and found that delightful the invitation of... Shem Phillips (28:05.079) Yeah. Shem Phillips (28:25.383) Yeah. Shem Phillips (28:32.633) I've found some funny situations where my more like, you know, very Christian friends will just go straight into corruption, be as evil as possible and bite the black mic all the time and they've got these friends who are like atheists or non-believers and they will just go very virtuous. It's like, are we just switching roles here? Is that what it's going on? Is that what ball games are for? Just for us to like try stuff we wouldn't try in real life? I don't know. Daniel (28:33.361) of that mechanism. Daniel (28:47.71) Mm-hmm. Kevin (28:49.656) Hahaha Kevin (28:55.873) Right. Yeah. I mean, the optimal is to veer into corruption, but not too far and then manage to bank out of it at the right time. But it's not always easy to pull off in the games. Shem Phillips (29:04.104) Yeah. Shem Phillips (29:09.465) Ultimately it's a game but it's kind of fun to like, it gets you a little bit invested in like your own, you know Your own morality a bit like, oh am I going to be that bad person? But it's for fun, you know Kevin (29:21.661) Yeah, I know, I really believe in that. If I'm playing a game or like a role playing game, I definitely want to be someone very different because that's my chance to do something interesting that I would never do in real life. Shem Phillips (29:28.753) Yeah, yeah, I think that's the idea of playing, right? Yeah. Daniel (29:34.018) As I mentioned before, that's why I like Bunny Kingdom because I have never been a bunny overlord before. So I'm just, you know, it's good. Shem Phillips (29:39.981) Never. Kevin (29:44.881) Right. My goodness. Well, I've got this comment to read here, but any other thought, last questions, thoughts? Kevin (29:55.937) from either Daniel or Shim? Where does that name Shim come from? Do you know? Daniel (30:00.642) Yeah. Shem Phillips (30:03.733) That's what Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. That's the Hebrew word for name. So it has the same meaning as our English word for name. Kevin (30:06.105) Of course. All right. Kevin (30:12.873) Right. All right. Daniel (30:16.95) Do you feel like a like? Kevin (30:17.821) I'm the only non-biblical person here. Shem Phillips (30:20.677) I'm sure there's a cave in somewhere in the back. Daniel (30:23.214) There's like, there's like... Kevin (30:23.545) No, he was some Irish saint. He lived on a pole or something. My parents just like the name. It has no meaning to them. I mean, we're not Irish. Yeah. Daniel (30:28.835) That sounds almost biblical. I like it. Do you feel like, have you seen yourself grow in faith as a result of any game or as a result of designing a game? Have you learned kind of any religious or spiritual lessons from gaming, do you think? Shem Phillips (30:52.305) Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I will say, though, designing Israel and Amaya was great because I was way more motivated to study those books, and Hagai and Zechariah as well. So having some deeper or not deeper, I guess more practical reason to study those books was great. Daniel (30:53.822) Yeah, yeah, that's okay. Daniel (31:05.116) Yeah. Daniel (31:11.446) Yeah. Shem Phillips (31:13.649) you know, because you want to study anyway, but having this reason and focus for actually, not just for wisdom, but for knowledge, to learn about this period a lot more historically and stuff. That was fun. Daniel (31:16.659) Yeah. Kevin (31:19.593) Yeah. Daniel (31:26.046) I've wondered that about your historical games. I mean, do you just have a natural interest and lifelong learning of history already and you're under your belt as you approach these subjects? Or do you kind of have to go into a deep dive of learning about each of these subjects as you dive into a historically themed game? Shem Phillips (31:46.993) Yeah, I love sci-fi and stuff as well, but I think when I come to anything that's to do with play, like Lego or board games or anything like that, computer games, I just love... the kind of sword and shield kind of stuff because I think I understand it I know I can pick up a sword and I can hold a shield when I'm playing in sci-fi I'm like well what's a mega blaster five million do? I like watching sci-fi but I don't like playing in that space so much so yeah I always I always love playing Age of Empires one of the Matenegies, still kind of do a little bit you know the strategy game on computer Daniel (31:59.914) Yeah. Daniel (32:12.566) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (32:17.528) Yeah. Shem Phillips (32:20.685) I still, I mean I still, I'm getting back into Lego now, you can't see behind me, but there's Lego there. Always ancient kind of themes and, or even up to pirates kind of age as well. I just love that kind of medieval ancient stuff, it's just fun. I don't know why, but it clicks with me. But we do, we do a lot of research though, yeah. Daniel (32:29.803) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I can understand that, yeah. Kevin (32:37.233) I had never heard of... Yeah, you must, because I'd never heard of you until I played The Legacy of You and looking that up. The Chinese... That's neat. Shem Phillips (32:47.173) Yeah, that one was a case of like, all right, I've got this solo kind of game working. What great heroes are there out in ancient stories? Like, search for some kind of ancient hero that hasn't been talked about much. And I think I found a few, but then found the story of you, the great, and thought this was perfect. Like, I could have this flood mechanism working out and all this kind of stuff. So often we'll have like some kind of mechanisms in mind and then find a theme and then twist it to work better. Kevin (33:04.519) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (33:17.029) other ways, like when I did Raiders of Scythia, which was obviously just a redo of Raiders of the North Sea, I was like, well what other, like, highly barbaric races existed in the ancient world? And that's when I found the Scythians, which I hadn't heard of before, but they are actually referenced by Paul. And even to say you're a Scythian was like an insult back in Greek days. So there was so... there's something about... I think the script is something like... Daniel (33:38.402) Hmm. Shem Phillips (33:43.513) along the lines of like you know there's salvation for all even for the Scythians like that's kind of how they were regarded they were just that brutal I was like well they are kind of adjacent to Vikings like they're that brutal that's how I got that theme yeah otherwise like yeah now that we've got new stories starting up I just have a list of like different ancient civilizations that are kind of inspired aspiring and thought I could make a game in that in some way so Daniel (33:49.218) Even for them. Daniel (33:55.351) The Vikings... Let's go. Kevin (34:09.604) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (34:10.321) I've got one now that I've got the name, I've got the place, but I don't have the game. But I like what that name and that word will inspire. Trying to make a game in that theme from the start. Yeah. Daniel (34:22.754) But I take it for what you're saying earlier, it's not always in that order, right? It's not always the order that, yeah, sometimes the game comes first and then, yeah, yeah. Shem Phillips (34:26.617) Nah, yeah, it changes up for sure. Yeah. Ideally, you kind of have either some very simple mechanisms or at least the setting, like the civilization or something. And then, um. Kevin (34:31.53) Wow. Shem Phillips (34:41.313) once you have that you kind of find the other one quickly and then you figure out what the story is like who are the players what they're doing and from there you kind of develop both the setting and the story together and the mechanisms together so otherwise if you skip all that stuff and you finish the game without any kind of theme then it's like well then it will feel quite pasted on because I like the theme to inspire some of the mechanisms like the Valkyrie in Rays of the North Sea like they said well they wanted to die Daniel (34:47.916) Yeah. Shem Phillips (35:11.247) battle that has to be in the game somehow so developed a mechanism that kind of brought that theme into the game. Daniel (35:13.986) Yeah. Kevin (35:19.547) And your brother is an artist, right? He does the artwork for the games. So both of you are creatives, in a sense. Shem Phillips (35:22.193) Yeah, he does all the ancient games. Yeah, when we grew up trying to make our own comic books and superheroes and stuff, even from we're like five years old, just used to make our own characters and all sorts and. We had the modeling clay dookit, I don't know if you have dookit, but it's like a modeling clay you can make stuff and then bake it in the oven, you make your own little action figures and stuff. We used to do that kind of thing. I can't draw to save my life, but I would often draw my superheroes and then my brother would redraw them for me. Because he actually had drawing skills when we were kids, whereas I never have. We've done like t-shirts before, like our own brands for t-shirts. We've always wanted to make stuff together. Daniel (35:42.487) Oh, well that's cool. Daniel (35:54.114) Nice. Shem Phillips (36:04.069) So that's a great way to do it finally. Kevin (36:04.565) So it's really very creative family. You've got music, you've got art, you've got game design. Shem Phillips (36:09.709) My mum's an amazing artist. She does all sorts of, pretty much any medium she does. Pottery and fine art, all sorts. And a dressmaker as well. My wife's a dressmaker. We're a very creative family. Daniel (36:18.004) Oh wow. Kevin (36:25.141) amazing. Would you ever do like an Ameritrash dudes on a map type game or it's just not your interest? Shem Phillips (36:33.381) Maybe. I used to stay away from them until we did Chaos Order. So we published Chaos Order last year, and it was a year before, which is designed by Sam McDonald and Zachary Smith. So it's a very heavy, quite asymmetric area control game. Very fighty. And I played it the first time. Kevin (36:35.019) Maybe. Shem Phillips (36:53.229) getting prototype form and thought this is cool I can see why it's appealing but it's not my thing and then slowly as I played the game more and as I had to write the rule book I understood the game a lot more and actually got really into it now I really enjoy it so yeah it is yeah Kevin (37:05.213) It's a great game. I've played it a lot. Still terrible at it, but it seems like kind of a hybrid game. It's more of a Euro, but it does have a dudes on the map battle aspect. And a bit of a nail biter too. Like it's come down to one roll of the dice, which Daniel and I discuss. I think it's a lot of fun in a game at times. Shem Phillips (37:27.801) Oh yeah, it's that moment, that memory that you'll, you know, for the next five years, that's right. Kevin (37:31.581) Yeah, you remember it and it's also, it's luck, so it's not personal. It's like, well... Daniel (37:32.746) said. Kevin (37:38.813) You just rolled better than I did, so well done. Shem Phillips (37:41.305) Yeah, I think I lean away from games where like, on a dice roll you obliterated my entire army. Like those kind of games bug me like Kemet and stuff, but when it's just like, oh I lost maybe one troop and I had to go back to base but I can come back next round. That stuff I don't mind so much. But when it's just like you get completely wiped off, all of your work that round is just gone. That's where I'm like, I get salty a little bit. But um, yeah. I actually did a video on it for Chaos Order. It was titled, will a Eurogamer enjoy Chaos Order? Kevin (37:56.126) Mm-hmm. Kevin (38:01.206) Right. Daniel (38:04.011) Yeah. Kevin (38:04.214) Yeah, yeah, wait too. Shem Phillips (38:11.341) And I kind of go into why I ended up liking it in the end. A lot of it was my own, like I realized I was way too salty and way too like, invested in the game. I needed to relax and just like, you know what, it's a game. Because Eurogamer's like, Eurogamer's can be very competitive, but you don't realize it because it's all friendly environment. Kevin (38:15.626) Ooh. Kevin (38:21.81) I'm going to go. Shem Phillips (38:32.317) But as soon as those players get on our air control game, they get very angry and very like, I must win. So a lot of it was like soul searching to see like, why, why do I get so angry when I play these games? So yeah, yeah. I know. Daniel (38:37.93) Right, right. Daniel (38:43.255) Hehehe Kevin (38:44.11) Yeah. Yeah, and it's partly the role of luck, I guess. Messes with the... Shem Phillips (38:49.817) Yeah, and I think, yeah, and also just being outsmarted by the players, you know, in an engine building game like a Euro game, I can lose the game, but still see all the stuff I achieved and go, I did it right, I did this thing and this thing, and you kind of see what you built. Kevin (38:55.296) Right. Kevin (39:02.337) Mm-hmm. Shem Phillips (39:05.229) more a merry trash combat game like you either win or you lose and when you lose you can see all the defeat in front of you and how poorly you played and it's usually because the other players outsmarted you know they were better maybe there was some luck in there as well but a lot of those games it's more about like moving into that perfect position and then like betting your odds and that kind of stuff and I'm just not that good at that kind of game so when I lose I'm like oh no it's clearly that I was the worst Kevin (39:12.842) Right. Kevin (39:29.121) Mm-hmm. Kevin (39:35.913) Daniel, have you tried wayfarers yet? Daniel (39:39.114) I haven't. I really want to. I'm sorry. It's a point of shame. Kevin (39:41.797) It's I think it's my favorite of shims designs if I may be so bold But but what I like is as shim said you come away You feel smart even when you lost just because you can see what you did like it. It has a real Uh, it's just something really magical about and I just like the going around the board sense of Um, it's the one I and it's a great solo game, too so and that's Shem Phillips (39:41.961) I'll teach you. Daniel (39:45.198) I've heard such good things about it. Daniel (40:06.059) I gotta try it. Shem Phillips (40:06.093) It's a hard game to learn and a hard game to teach. I found that out, like, I had to teach it three times back to back at a convention, and I was like, I don't like teaching this game. Whereas I taught scholars, like, about 15 times at ESSEN and really enjoyed it. So, yeah. Wayfair has a big upfront teach, but once you get into it, it's quite simple. Yeah. So, that first hurdle. Daniel (40:14.302) Hehehehe Kevin (40:19.869) I'm looking forward to that. Kevin (40:25.545) Yeah, I tried to teach my wife Jenny wayfares, and she just looked at me like, you've got to be kidding. It was just not her type. She'll play some games, but that was, as you said, it's very upfront. And yeah, it was too much, I think. I have to pick the right time, yeah. Shem Phillips (40:31.346) Yeah, that's a hard one. Shem Phillips (40:43.725) Once you've got it, it's as simple as architects. It's that easy. Just very simple turns. Daniel (40:44.11) Kevin. Yeah, I can imagine. Kevin (40:47.453) Yeah, yeah, especially because you're matching the little symbols, so once you realize the matching aspect. Shem Phillips (40:50.909) Yeah. Daniel (40:53.726) Next time we get together, Kevin, bring wayfares. We got to... Kevin (40:56.953) I can, if I leave now, I'll be there in- 20 hours. Daniel (41:02.932) I will look forward to it. I'll look forward to it. Shem Phillips (41:03.347) Ha ha. Kevin (41:06.113) Yeah, I did a big drive across America trip, Shem, so to visit Daniel in an electric vehicle. So half the time was trying to find a charger, but it was still fun. Shem Phillips (41:09.342) Bye bye. Shem Phillips (41:18.392) Nice. Daniel (41:19.122) So as we're recording it right now, Kevin, I'm one hour behind Kevin. And you're like, are you 14, 15 hours ahead Shamov? Kevin (41:19.402) minutes. Shem Phillips (41:30.053) Yeah, it's almost 1 PM on Wednesday. Tuesday? Tuesday. Yeah. Daniel (41:33.878) Wow. I got to say, I know this is like totally geeky, but like I love doing this also. I mean, for one thing, we're going to talk with you, which is amazing, but also it kind of, it kind of like low key feels like time travel, right? Like we're like talking to the future and you're, I guess you're talking to the past, but it's anyway, it's kind of cool. All right, I'm done with my Doctor Who moment. Kevin (41:36.114) Mm-hmm. The world is so weird. Shem Phillips (41:50.173) Yeah. Yep. Kevin (41:52.501) Mm. Shem Phillips (41:56.005) Yeah, it's crazy. Kevin (41:58.865) Right. All right, here's a lovely comment from one of our listeners online. I'll read to you. From et john glenn. This is through our little discord channel page server thing. So John writes, I'm so thrilled to hear you'll be speaking with shim Phillips. I played Legacy of You over the summer during a very difficult time for me. My sister just passed away in the spring after a long and agonizing, sorry agonizing struggle with cancer. There wasn't enough time to properly say goodbye, as anyone who has been through such an ordeal can testify. It was and is very painful. Shim's game gave me the mental guardrails I needed at that time to help me navigate those long days. In Legacy of You, the floodwaters coming in from one side and the barbarians attacking from the other so aptly portrayed my personal struggle. the overwhelming void of her absence against the many lingering regrets johnson fantastic writer by the way obviously uh... i do not know this person but He writes, little by little, one campaign after another, winning some, losing others, I began to feel my own floodwaters subsiding and my own barbarians retreating, enough to at least gain some balance once again. Words alone cannot express my gratitude, but please tell Shim how grateful I am for all his hard work on Legacy of You, arguably one of the best solo game experiences of all time, regardless of platform. The game's mechanics and resources are so wonderful, tight. and the decisions so well tuned to the theme, I can only say bravo and of course encore. One day, God willing, I will see my sister again and she will tell me that in fact, Legacy of You wasn't a solo game because I wasn't playing alone. That's really lovely. Yep. Good, wow. Shem Phillips (43:53.557) Wow, yeah, it's pretty amazing and humbling as well. Thanks for sharing that, that's incredible. Well, those kind of stories, I've heard a few of those, not too many, but of people playing in hospital beds and things where they're suffering with something. I guess like. Kevin (44:01.053) Yeah, I'll send that to you in a printed form too. Shem Phillips (44:13.497) It kind of makes it very real. We do this stuff for fun, and it's all enjoyable, and generally very happy chap, even. And when someone's like, this game helped me through this very difficult time, that's like, wow. That makes it worthwhile for sure, knowing that. Some cardboard and some wood and some rules can give someone joy at a real horrible time. So yeah, that's pretty amazing. Yeah. Daniel (44:15.438) Hmm. Kevin (44:15.829) Hmm. Kevin (44:26.827) Wow. Kevin (44:36.233) Yeah, and you made this thing, I guess, a year or two years ago, and as it filters out into the real world, it has all these impacts that you can't foresee. Shem Phillips (44:40.788) Yeah. Shem Phillips (44:46.341) Yeah, I think going back to what you asked at the very start about how do you bring faith into board game design? Or is there any kind of relationship between faith and design? I guess this is the part of it that is kind of where I feel it is, is that... Like, it's my hope, I guess, that at least God will be working through me, through my creativity, even though it's not a Christian theme or anything. Hopefully that God's using my gift to then minister to someone else through that cardboard, through that wood and those rules. Which, yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Kevin (45:23.106) Awesome. Well, Shem, people can find you on YouTube and on the Discord server for Garfield Games. Any other connections you want to mention? Shem Phillips (45:32.869) I think if you go to Gartholme.com you'll find links to all that kind of stuff quite easily. Kevin (45:38.337) Okay, very good. Daniel, any last thoughts? Daniel (45:43.498) Now just to say again, thank you, Shem. We're so grateful for your taking time to join us. And thank you for the ways that your heart for good games and your heart for God come together in some pretty wonderful ways. And I couldn't think of a better way to close the episode than with that kind of testimony that John Glenn shared. So. Thank you, thank you. We really appreciate your joining us today. Shem Phillips (46:12.989) Thank you both. That's been a pleasure. Kevin (46:15.617) much. Well, thank you, Shem. We will see our listeners in two weeks. See you then. Bye-bye. Daniel (46:22.794) Yep, bye bye. Shem Phillips (46:24.233) Bye.