Daniel (00:03.124) It's the benefits of gaming for aging adults with special guest, Kristen Hilty on this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about games and spirituality. Daniel (00:41.304) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:46.27) My name is Kevin Taylor. Kristen (00:48.63) I'm Kristen Hilty. Daniel (00:50.542) Kristen, welcome to the podcast. We're so glad to have you here. Kristen (00:54.464) Thank you, it's good to be here. Kevin (00:56.531) Yay. Daniel (00:56.77) We are absolutely thrilled to, yeah, welcome Kristen Hilty here today, a counselor, a therapist to talk about the benefits of board games for aging adults. But before we dive into that, Kevin, if folks like this kind of conversation and are focused on kind of the benefits of board games for the soul and the psyche, what are ways they can support our podcast? Kevin (01:20.956) man, can spread the word, tell a friend, let them know about this awesome podcast, both an audio podcast on your player of choice and on YouTube featuring CinemaScope Video. Daniel (01:34.39) love how they've added CinemaScope video to YouTube. Yeah, yeah, it was right after. Kevin (01:36.23) It's it's a special feature. It's unique to us actually, and it means nothing. But yes, yes. So we have YouTube and audio and you can like and subscribe on YouTube. Give us a ranking on Apple podcasts or you can sponsor us at patreon.com. Place saves the world and that helps to take down some of the costs we have in running this channel. Thank you. Daniel (02:00.398) Yeah, we appreciate it very much. And we appreciate you tuning in today, listeners or viewers, if you're watching on YouTube, wherever you are. We are excited to have you join us for a conversation that I've been really excited about recently. And I know you too, Kevin, which is about how board games can benefit older adults. So, so Kristen, please tell us a little bit about yourself. We're so glad to have you here for the conversation. Kristen (02:28.288) Well, first of all, I guess I should say I'm your wife, so. Daniel (02:31.756) What? Kevin (02:34.387) This just in. Kristen (02:34.644) I know, I'm sorry, I don't know that you knew that, but, and I hate to break it to you here publicly, but, but yeah, no, I'm excited to be here too. I am a clinical social worker, which is a bunch of words thrown together to mean that I provide psychotherapy services and primarily to older adults. And by older adults, I mean pretty much anybody over 50, which, Kevin (02:38.143) He thought you looked familiar. I know her from somewhere. Daniel (02:38.466) I'm a lucky man. No. Kristen (03:02.902) throws me in that category now, which is a little scary. yeah, I work with older and senior adults providing therapy and have done that for not very long, actually. I kind of came to this recently, but have been working with older adults for over 25 years. And this is kind of, I like to feel like it's the culmination of all of those years experience, like to kind of provide this service. And it's been really meaningful to me. Kevin (03:03.143) Mm-hmm. I know, right? Daniel (03:06.134) Yeah, that's true. Kristen (03:31.252) But I kind of just started using games organically in my practice. I know we're going to talk about that and how that happened, but it's not something I kind of went in thinking I would do. It just kind of happened. And I found that it's been very beneficial. So yeah, I'd love to talk about that more. Daniel (03:48.377) Yeah. So you see, you meet with various clients who are older adults, are aging adults and yeah, and yeah, provide counseling, therapy. but yeah. And so as part of this, have, how did you come across this idea of, you bring board games with you sometimes to some of your sessions with, with us. So yeah, how, did you come across that? Kristen (03:54.229) Yeah. Kristen (04:08.66) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen (04:13.194) Yeah, so I was trained, there's a special type of therapy that not a lot of people have heard about. It's called cognitive stimulation therapy. And it's designed, it kind of came up in England actually, and designed specifically for use in older adults that have memory issues or dementia, mild to moderate memory loss. And it's kind of a, it's a natural component of that type of therapy because you're using kind of play situations. to increase confidence, and also to tap kind of distant memory, which is usually more accessible to someone with memory loss than recent memory. But what I found in working with senior adults, I had some adults who were very severely depressed and older adults who are very severely depressed are very restricted usually. Kevin (04:50.719) Mm-hmm. Kristen (05:06.102) in what they are able to do, want to do activity-wise. And so I found that some of those components of cognitive stimulation therapy worked really well also with my clients who were severely depressed. And so I started kind of being a little more formal with it and not just bringing in kind of casual word association games, things like that, which are kind of the backbone of cognitive stimulation therapy, but also bringing in board games. So it kind of happened out of that, my trainings in cognitive stimulation therapy, but I found it was useful in other situations as well. And so now it's kind of a regular component I use with certain clients. Yeah. Kevin (05:47.475) Hmm. So they expect you to play a game with them. Kristen (05:51.542) Yes, in fact, I have one client who pretty quickly into our session, she's like, why did you bring today? And so it's like, well, in my bag here, whoo, know, so I'm done talking. What did you bring to play? So yeah, yeah, no, they kind of expect it. Others, it might be a little bit of a surprise, but it works well with what we're doing because there's this Kevin (05:53.023) all. Daniel (05:59.669) Hahaha! Kevin (05:59.935) I like this person. This is. Kristen (06:20.948) There's this idea that in therapy, or with a certain type of therapy called cognitive behavioral therapy that we're all trained in. It's like one of the most common interventions you use in psychotherapy with most modern therapists. Cognitive behavior, there's this thing called behavioral activation. And that is the thought that doing things, whether you feel like it or not, will actually increase your mood. So, so I bring in these games as way as a way basically of introducing this concept of behavioral activation, you know, it's like you might not feel like playing this game with me today. But tell me how you feel right now. And then after we play the game, tell me how you feel at the end. And a lot of people will find that after playing a game or interacting with me in that way. Daniel (07:09.377) Hmm. Kristen (07:14.962) it does actually elevate their mood, decrease their depressive symptoms. So it's a way of kind of in real time demonstrating that to people. Daniel (07:22.573) That's interesting. What do you think it is about playing a game that increases the positive mood that a person is feeling? it about being, that's something we've talked about on this podcast before. is it about being present? It helps a person be present in the moment or something else going on or stimulating neurons? Or do you have a sense of why that is, what the benefit, what that mechanism is that benefits the person? Kristen (07:23.935) Yeah. Kristen (07:37.385) Yeah, right. Kevin (07:42.527) Mm-hmm. Kristen (07:52.16) Yeah, I certainly feel like there is an element of, you know, what we might label as mindfulness when you're playing a game, you know, being in the present. And we've probably all experienced that when we're playing games, you know, you don't, you're not really, and you may, while somebody else is taking a turn, you may think about your laundry or think about something bad you said to somebody else earlier in the day. But for the most part, a really engaging game. kind of takes your mind off of everything else that's going out in the outside world and you're really present. I know I find that when we play games with friends, you know, I'm just really in the moment enjoying and even if there's downtime, I'm usually talking to the people at the table, you know, rather than thinking about other things I've done that day that made me sad or, or so yes, there's that mindfulness component. I think with, with aging adults, there's also Kevin (08:26.098) Mm-hmm. Kevin (08:36.307) Mm-hmm. Kristen (08:44.15) cognitive stimulation, you know, that's a benefit. it also raises, I like to call it, I usually tell people it raises your confidence, it raises your competence. Because I think people who have memory loss, especially, feel very incompetent in most situations. And whether you mean to or not, it's very easy to make someone feel incompetent. Kevin (08:57.599) Yeah. Ooh, that's a good one. Kristen (09:13.414) and or to make them feel less than. So when I'm engaged with games, I'm very cognizant of that feeling. And so I might I might be hyper positive, maybe in the game. And we can talk about that later. But but I'm really looking to increase your confidence, increase your competence with senior adults. And especially. Yeah. Kevin (09:26.303) Mm-hmm. Kevin (09:33.961) So along that line, do you do about winning and losing? Daniel (09:34.093) Hmm. Kristen (09:40.052) Yeah, that's great. You know, I find... Daniel (09:40.653) That's a good question. Kevin (09:42.719) Because I could see, you know, if the person loses, they're like, I knew I wasn't good at anything, right? Like it's not helping. Uh, but then winning is of course a competence and confidence booster. like, Oh, look, I can win. Kristen (09:46.998) Right. Yeah. Kristen (09:55.52) Yeah, yeah. Well, and so we might play games that don't have a win or lose component to it as well. You you call them cooperative games in board game world. I know all your lingo, by the way. But I know, I know. So we might call them cooperative, but I call them... Daniel (10:08.077) You're kind of a board gamer too. A little bit. Kevin (10:09.267) No, we don't. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Kristen (10:19.67) I usually when I'm doing a game with a client, it's like, okay, let's learn this game. So it's more like a learning opportunity than it is a let's compete against each other. It's like, no, let's learn a new game. And so I think when you're learning a new game, there's not that. You know, like when we're, I don't really care if I lose a game, if I feel like I don't know it, you know, like if Daniel's played it 20 times himself and then he brings in this new game and he beats me the first game. I'm like, well, you, you know what? I don't. I, it's fine. but I'll let you win that one time. so, cooperative gaming, Daniel (10:53.837) That will be the only time I beat you, but yes. Once you learn it, you're good. Kevin (10:55.708) Uh-huh. Kevin (10:59.615) The slice slice merc appears on Daniel's face Kristen (11:07.286) using us learning. And I will bend the rules a lot. We can talk about this more, but I will modify, modify, modify games to my heart's content. And usually that also kind of removes that win or lose component. And as a social worker, social workers are trained, clinical social workers, our background in social work is always, always focused on client strengths. And so I'm usually already really well aware of what a client's strengths is. Kevin (11:14.857) Smart. Yes, yes. Kristen (11:35.998) So I won't bring in, if I know that word recall is hard for them, I won't bring in a game that functions on word recall. That would be evil of me. You know, I'm going to bring in a game that really focuses on their strengths. Like I have several clients, older adults who, without memory loss, that are amazing at words. And so Scrabble, yeah, let's play Scrabble. They love it. They feel very confident and they can beat me at it. It's no hands down. Kevin (11:41.042) Mm-hmm. Kristen (12:05.448) Never underestimate an aging adult. That's probably the one less that I want to leave for everybody too. Never underestimate older adults and their resiliency and their capacity for learning and resiliency. So, yeah. Kevin (12:09.491) Hmm. Kevin (12:17.503) That's awesome. Daniel (12:20.525) What are some examples of some of the rules you would bend? Kristen (12:26.708) Yeah, so. Well, Scrabble, I just talked about Scrabble. Scrabble is a good example. And sometimes instead of Scrabble, I will bring in Bananagrams, which is actually a little bit more, it's bendable than Scrabble. You know, Scrabble has very set rules that most people are used to. If you're a Scrabble player your whole life, you know those rules and you're going to stick to them. And they usually catch me on all of the rules. Daniel (12:43.137) Yeah, yeah. Kristen (12:52.362) But the anagrams, what I love about any of those tile games, and I think we have another one like pairs of pairs or pairs to pairs or things like anything that's like letter tiles, you can just make up your own rules. And so often I will use those letter tiles and we'll do different things with them or we'll ignore the rules. We'll just kind of say, let's just make words and we'll sit there until somebody runs out of tiles and make words together. Or maybe instead of. Kevin (13:15.881) That's awesome. Kristen (13:17.246) Yeah, and maybe instead of all of them interconnecting like bananagrams usually do, we'll just do make pairs. And that's like the pairs and pairs game. I mean, you just make pairs of words. I think what I love to do with my clients who have memory loss is use those letter tile games for actually word association. So I will make a word with the tile. So I'll say like birds. I'll do birds with the letters. And I'll say, can you think of two birds that have the same letters, some of the same letters? And can you put two birds in that? across those tiles with two birds and they can usually do that. So I'm providing a um I'm basically providing a root word that they can build off of you know and if they can't think of anything that's okay um you know my role there is to just guide and support so I'm like oh birds I'm like oh um let's see oh a cardinal has an eye in it I wonder if we can put cardinal here you know so they'll put cardinal there and they can usually spell that on their own so yeah it's like Daniel (13:56.545) Hmm. Kevin (14:12.967) Mm-hmm. Kristen (14:16.01) You just become really flexible with games and bend some of those rules. that kind of provide a good example? Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (14:24.202) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (14:25.193) Yeah, no it does. It reminds me of D &D type things where the goal of the Dungeon Master is to have a good experience and that's another type of game where the Dungeon Master can bend some rules about who they might attack or how vicious the monsters are because you don't want to just wipe everyone off the map. That's not fun. And so there's an artistry to negotiating a good game. Now you don't want it to be too easy either. You want a little challenge, but yeah. Kristen (14:32.978) Mm. Yeah. Kristen (14:44.468) Yeah, yeah. Kristen (14:50.525) Right. Daniel (14:52.288) That's a good parallel. Yeah, yeah. Reminds me of our previous episode conversation, Kevin, where we talked about getting better at games. And yeah, I mean, one way to think about that is improving your chances of winning. But another way getting better at games is just improving the experience overall of a game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (15:07.273) Yeah, proving the experience. Blood on the Clock Tower, if you run that as the, I forget what they call it, but basically Dungeon Master, there's a hidden traitor, right? There's demons fighting villagers. And your goal as the Dungeon Master person is to keep it going as long as possible, because that'll be the most interesting. So you might help the demons out a little bit if it looks like they're going to lose quickly or the villagers, but you don't care who wins or loses. You just want to drag it out. Kristen (15:08.628) Yeah. Kevin (15:36.703) because then it gets exciting when it's down to two versus two people. they're, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Daniel (15:40.077) interesting, interesting, interesting. That reminds, yeah, yeah. I can't remember the name of the author now, but a long time ago in the podcast, we discussed the Finite and Infinite Games. And I remember that the distinction the author made was that the point of finite games is to win. The point of infinite games is to keep the game going. Kevin (15:45.631) So the win is the experience. Yeah, the win is the experience. Kevin (15:58.655) Mm-hmm. Ahem. Daniel (16:08.3) And it's kind of what I hear maybe you both saying. I mean, obviously you can't keep the game going forever, but the point is just to prolong the positive experience of the game. Yeah. Kristen (16:08.896) Mm-hmm. Kristen (16:17.886) Yeah. I have another good example too, that I find works well with my clients who have some memory issues and that's things and rings. I mean, we have, that's a game that we have and we got at the last, I know, Geekway, I think. And I just kind of picked it up on a whim or you did. I can't remember who bought it now. Maybe I did. I think it was me. Yeah. Because I think maybe in the back of my mind, I'm always, oh, Kevin, did you stick it in her bag, Kevin? Daniel (16:37.002) I think it was you, maybe, yeah. Kevin (16:39.903) Thought it was me. Daniel (16:41.152) I think it was Kevin. That's right. Kevin (16:45.055) I I thought it was... I thought the game was things in bags, so I stuck it in a bag, but I was wrong. Daniel (16:45.13) He did it. He did it. It was his trade for Ark Nova. Kristen (16:46.644) Thank good Shameless plug for rings and things, but there are things in rings. but, yes. and I'm always at conferences now in the back of my mind thinking, I wonder if that would be a good game. So I'm picking up games now that I feel like would be good. so I think I probably bought that one, but, that's one, if you play it by the rules and we've done this at home with college students, who come over to our house with our friend, our college age kids every, Daniel (16:52.651) Hahaha Kevin (17:06.239) That's awesome. Kristen (17:19.796) And it's a difficult game. It's a mind burner. know, it's like one of those you're at the end of it. You're like, done. I can't do anything else. But with my clients, I do it totally differently. I basically put one loop out. Maybe two, but not maybe two if I feel like they can. And then I'll label those. Like, okay. Does this object go in this? I'll use like one card. I think they like an example. You can maybe think of an example better than I can, but things that can Kevin (17:22.92) Is it? Kristen (17:49.952) that can be in water or something like that. Maybe that's the descriptor. And then I pull up a subject card and I say, does this or an object card, say, does this object, can it go in water or not? And you're just basically putting it in or out of the ring. So it's a cognitive, again, it's a good cognitive stimulation exercise, but it's not asking them to do really abstract or deep analytical things like you would have to do to actually play the game. So that's a great example. Daniel (18:01.354) Mmm. Mmm. Kevin (18:16.959) Right, so simple judgment. Kristen (18:17.15) And I will say like that game specifically, I had a client who, again, severely depressed. It was so hard for me to find things to connect. That game lit her up like nothing else I did with her. It was, yeah, no, it was amazing. And, and again, you know, that feeling of competence for her, which she never felt she was the only one who was able to do. Daniel (18:30.198) That's so cool. That's so cool. Kevin (18:30.329) my god, you never know do you? You have to try. Kristen (18:43.018) like a Venn diagram type thing too, where I overlaid two. I said, well, does it fall on this side, this side or both? And, and she was able to do that. And for her that was just like, yeah. So it can, it can be really cool. Yeah. Kevin (18:51.337) Hmm. Daniel (18:56.692) That is awesome. And we're going to ask for some of your if you have some recommendations of like some of your best go to games for older adults later on in the episode, too. But I love. she's got a list. She's got a list. I'm sensing Arknova is coming up, Kevin. Kevin's favorite favorite there. Twilight and period. So the. Kevin (19:06.525) Yeah, we've got two, right? Bananagrams and things in rings. we got a list. Kristen (19:07.446) I made a list. I made a list. Kevin (19:17.435) Arc Nova! Kristen (19:18.934) Twilight Imperium. Kevin (19:20.895) Twilight Nova you must build a floating zoo and then have it attack others Kristen (19:23.574) Okay. Daniel (19:26.476) What I like about that example to you is, mean, it also illustrates what you're saying about kind of, know, bending the rules. You know, the rules of the standard game is, you know, to win things in rings, you have to guess the category. It's not open information. But what I hear you saying is you just, you make the category information, open information at the very beginning. Like, you're not trying to guess, okay, is this something? Kevin (19:43.377) Ahem. Kristen (19:49.29) Yeah. Daniel (19:51.468) you know, what's the category? You're just letting them know that right from the start. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That's good. Yeah. Kristen (19:54.902) Yeah. Right. Yeah. Kevin (19:55.667) This is awesome. Yeah. Daniel (20:01.014) So are there any, there's so many benefits we were talking about playing board games with older adults. Are there any drawbacks? Any challenges to it? Kristen (20:12.986) yeah, yeah, I would say, you know, the biggest drawbacks are not really cognitive drawbacks because I can kind of work with that. have enough experience working with people who have dementia and other, and, memory loss that, that that's not a challenge. You know, I can adapt to that, but what is harder to adapt to sometimes are changes in our sensory perceptions as we get older. so if you think about it, like even your Daniel (20:37.292) Hmm. Kristen (20:42.87) your hands might be affected by arthritis. So I have found card games are hard. mean, it's okay for some people, but if you have arthritis in your hands, it's really hard to pick up cards. So I have to be careful with their abilities in that sense. But vision is huge, know, so just like you might be working with someone with vision loss or you just wanna be aware. Kevin (20:53.673) Right. Kristen (21:08.392) I found color distinction is hard. You know, I had high hopes for a gentle rain, which I love. A lot of people love, you know, because it's just a very peaceful game. It can be very mindful. But I have found almost everyone I work with, whether they have an actual diagnosis of macular degeneration or glaucoma, whatever. Kevin (21:16.915) You Kristen (21:30.772) those colors are very hard to distinguish with senior adults. So like I'll, you know, bring out a flower and I'm like, you know, let's place this flower and they're like, is that purple or red? You know, so that one I've kind of stopped taking, unfortunately. it's the same thing with, you know, other games where you have to see colors or distinguish colors that are too close. Trying to think, the other one, the other good example, I love those. I had, think Kevin (21:33.101) no. Daniel (21:41.782) Hmm. Kevin (21:43.967) Hmm. Kristen (21:58.814) I had you buy these for me, Daniel, but the the story dice cubes, which are very good for open-ended play. Yeah, yeah, Rory's story dice cubes. And there's I think there's three different sets of those now. Again, they're great. And I can use them with some to kind of initiate stories, which is great for my cognitive stimulation therapy. But they're so small, people have trouble distinguishing what the images on that dice. Daniel (22:03.53) Yeah, yeah. The Rory's dice cubes, story cubes. Yeah. Kristen (22:27.42) So So again, affected by, so those are the drawbacks. You have to just be very mindful not only of cognitive deficits, also sensory deficits when you bring in games because that might affect the ability, playability, playability, blablabla, of a game. Daniel (22:47.308) So really, what I hear saying is, mean, we're really kind of talking about accessibility issues. mean, that, yeah, yeah, yeah, making games more accessible. Kristen (22:54.858) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's why when we were talking about this episode, I said, you know, yeah, I can talk about aging adults, but really it's an accessibility issue too. You know, it's a broader, it's a broader subject than me just talking about, you know, how games are accessible for senior adults, but other people too. Yeah. Kevin (23:03.452) Mm-hmm. Daniel (23:09.952) Yeah. I know you both know this already. Accessibility issues around color blindness and seeing similar colors in the same way is a conversation that is ongoing and rightly so in the hobby board game community. It makes a big difference for a lot of people. And I've seen some games, what's an example? Like Sea Salt and Paper, which has... Kristen (23:20.49) Yeah. Daniel (23:39.02) different colors on cards, but then it also represents each color by a unique symbol. And there's almost kind of like they're trying to standardize, almost like they're trying to standardize a universal symbol for each kind of color. And that can be really helpful. Have you seen that too, Kevin? heard, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (23:44.905) Yes. Kevin (23:51.839) Mm-hmm. I have or in other games, they will do a symbol along with a color or some shading something to help people that have some color perception problems. Daniel (24:03.659) Yeah, yeah. Kristen (24:03.894) I felt like it was a standardized thing. Like there is a there's an explanation on the box of what communication tool they're using. I could be wrong about that. But I'm sorry, I should know. there was a there is an attempt to standardize what colors are represented by not just in that game maybe. Kevin (24:13.703) Hmm. Daniel (24:25.034) I think you're right. I think CSO on paper does use that. I think you're right. Some sort of universal standard. Kristen (24:29.419) Yeah. Kevin (24:30.431) But some games like Molly House, there are certain symbols they're using because they're almost like poker cards. And so then they're going to break that standard. They're going to have their own images related to the theme and not a standard. So yeah, I think it'd be unfair to expect every game to follow the standard. But it's cool. There is one. Daniel (24:40.278) Yeah, yeah. They're all unique. Kristen (24:43.744) Yeah. Daniel (24:48.278) Yeah, that makes sense. Daniel (24:54.72) Yeah. It also made me think about, we for a time in one of our church board game groups, there was someone who came wonderful. I was so glad she came who had trouble, like you were saying, kind of had trouble holding cards in her hand and For her, we were able to use like, you know, they, I'm sure there are all sorts of different things, but, for her, I guess a couple things, you know, I've seen, in fact, we have, you know, these like trays that you can put on the, you know, on the table that, you know, you put the, that have little slots in them where you put, you know, the cards are placed, you know, so they're just, they're held up for you. You don't have to hold it. And then, but then also she used, it was like a fan. Yeah, just look like an old kind of paper fan that you'd fan yourself with. But there is a there are little kind of rigid slots at the top of it that you would put cards in or her helper would put the cards in for her and then she would hold just basically hold the base of the fan. Anyway, I'm sure there are millions of varieties of all of that. But yeah. Kevin (26:13.469) We'll work around. See you. Kristen (26:14.378) Yeah, there's lots of adaptations here that you can use and tools that you could use to make game playing easier. think. Yeah. Daniel (26:20.95) Yeah. Well, thank you. I go ahead. Yes. No. Kristen (26:23.862) I wanted to, do you mind if I go back? I'm sorry. I did kind of brush over cognitive deficits. do, the obvious thing to point out is if a game has a memory component, that's not a good one. I think you've talked about that before in a podcast, Kevin, you know, it's like for some people, they're very sensitive to that anyway, even if you do. I mean, as we get older, you probably notice we're all forgetting things easier too, which is normal aging, which I could describe. Kevin (26:35.582) Right. Daniel (26:35.712) Yes. Kevin (26:45.341) Yeah. Kristen (26:53.712) what that is to you too. But yes, like Wilmette's Warehouse as an example, which I know you guys love and you've brought up before in a podcast, that would not be a good one to use with someone who has cognitive issues or memory loss issues because that's the whole basis of the game is kind of remembering a story with community, obviously, but that will kind of bring out someone's deficits and bring it to the fore. So yes, just be aware of kind of any games that do that. think, you know, Kevin (26:59.487) Hmm. Kevin (27:04.2) Right. Kristen (27:23.414) Games that focus more on maybe immediate reward or, you know, things that happen immediately in a turn or open-ended play like we've talked about. I think those are really good games for people with memory loss issues. Kevin (27:32.977) Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:40.307) Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:43.025) Could you give some examples of that? I'm sorry, Kevin. Go ahead. I interrupted you. Kevin (27:47.987) That we ask for examples of where games are bad. That's not a hat is the one that is that what you're asking? Which ones are not helpful or no either way? Yeah, I went sure to you're going I was going to jump in. That's not a hat is the one I've seen kind of people treat like kryptonite. They're like, I am not doing that game. Yeah. Well, and the game is I mean, you have to. Kristen (27:48.468) Are you? Daniel (27:50.377) Yeah. Daniel (27:57.179) yeah, what either either on either way. Yeah, but yeah, well, that's not a hat would be a really bad game Kristen (28:04.756) Yeah, I feel bad playing that sometimes. I'm bad at that one. Kevin (28:12.753) It's about humiliation, like someone has to forget or else the game never ends. So that's the weirdly vampiric nature of that game of someone must crack. yeah, that's one to be careful with. it's fun. It's a fun game. Kristen (28:15.017) Yeah. Kristen (28:20.477) Yeah, yeah. Right. And I feel like that game is almost more about just kind of like the ability to live to with people believing you as like, I know that's the duck, you know. So yes, that's in terms of good examples, I think just kind of what I've what I've been and I'll mention some more at the at the end in my in my five but yeah games where you maybe immediately get points. Kevin (28:31.357) Yes, the bluff. That's right. That's right. Daniel (28:31.743) bluff. Yeah. Kristen (28:51.986) because you've done something, Quirkl comes to mind, you know, like if you get points immediately for each tile that you place. And so, so that's, you don't have to remember. It's just, it's just visual what's happening at the moment. Those are, that's a good example. Daniel (28:57.931) Yeah, that makes sense. Daniel (29:07.881) And when you say open-ended play, what do you mean by that? What's an example of that? Kristen (29:11.236) open-ended play, mean, kind of like what we were talking about, like a cooperative game or a game that I've modified that just like things in rings where it's more about the exploration, it's more about the process, really, than an endpoint. Kevin (29:25.139) Yeah, you've removed the end game scoring component. Yeah. Kristen (29:28.47) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (29:32.394) If I may ask, so, I mean, something I'm finding myself wondering about is, we're talking about this, is after you play a game with an older, an aging adult or during the process of it, and you know, you're thinking about these benefits that can derive from it, do you have an intentional time where you lead the older adult, the aging adult in? naming the benefits and thinking about the benefits or do you just kind of leave it to the process for the person to internalize it and connect the dots on their own? Does that make sense what I'm asking or? Kristen (30:04.906) Mm-mm. Kristen (30:11.338) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think sometimes a little of both, especially if I'm introducing this for the first time, you know, they're like, why do you have a game with you, you know, and I'll explain this concept of behavioral activation, you know, that sometimes doing things when we're not feeling our best or feeling depressed, doing things, I often have a mantra is like, don't wait to do something until you feel like it. do it now so that you can bring about that feeling that you want. You know, it's like, it's kind of like you do something to bring about the feeling you want. So I explain that concept to them before we play the game. And then maybe we'll do a scaling activity, you or a, you know, how did you feel before we played and how do you feel now? Or if they do that, if I assign that as an assignment to, which I've done too, I was like, okay, this week with your family, I want you to play, um, uh, Daniel (30:43.669) Hmm. Daniel (30:57.516) yeah, yeah. Kristen (31:07.846) like a game that they're comfortable with. think Domino's is something that a couple of my clients are really familiar with. So I play Domino's and I want you to see how that makes you feel after you play. So yeah, other times though, it is just a process and it's just more like and a means and I think a lot of therapists do this. They use games as a means of having conversations when clients are otherwise too in... I don't know how to explain this except that when people are doing something that's not quite focused on the conversation that you need to have with them, sometimes they'll open up when they're just like doing something else. Yeah, like so, so for even, you know, regular, I don't say regular, but my adult clients who are not in that kind of cognitive or memory loss deficit area, sometimes I'll use a game just to kind of like help stimulate conversation because games do that, I think. Daniel (31:44.639) Yes, yes. Daniel (32:04.841) Yeah. Yes, yes. That yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm sure I've told the story before, but one of my favorite gaming experiences was a young man who came to our first church board game group. And after a while, he just said he just said that he had this realization that he would he would never come anywhere, a church or anywhere else, and just sit around a table with people and talk to them. Kevin (32:06.685) Right. Absolutely do. Kristen (32:07.807) Yeah. Daniel (32:32.907) under normal circumstances, but games gave him an excuse to do that. You know, yeah, and it's just, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. So let's say that there are some listeners to the podcast or reviewers of the YouTube video in stereoscopic. Videodrome with an amazing technicolor. Kevin (32:33.343) Hmm. Kristen (32:37.898) Yeah. Kristen (32:43.35) Yeah, for sure, for sure. Kevin (32:57.705) Videodrome! Kristen (32:59.616) So. Daniel (33:02.475) that are thinking, hey, and these listeners of yours, they're not therapists or counselors. They're just saying, hey, I have this older adult in my life and I'd like to connect with them over games. What are some recommendations that you might have just for our listeners of yours who maybe just want to use games to, yeah, to connect with an aging adult in their life? Kristen (33:32.042) Yeah, I think my first piece of advice, we let the older person lead the way to, you know, kind of ask them what games are you do you love? What games did you play as a child or as an adult that you absolutely love that you would love to try again? And so start there because you know, maybe we're a little snobby with our games sometimes, not naming any names. Daniel (33:56.524) What? Kristen (34:01.558) So, I mean, might be pulling out Monopoly. So, you gotta let down your guard a little bit. And when we talk about my list here in a minute, you might see a few of these games. So, classics and... Daniel (34:03.467) It's not Monopoly. Kevin (34:09.123) not that publisher. They've been tired. Their catalog's been tired for years. It's so realistic. Daniel (34:09.195) So so Philistine Kevin (34:19.327) You Kristen (34:24.104) You know, let them lead the way, start there. So keep an open mind. Never, never, never, never, never be condescending to an older adult. You know, it's like, or kind of like step over them. Because I think that's another beauty of the game with my aging clients is like so many older adults in care communities or, you know, loneliness is huge. Yeah, because as we get older, and I guess I can point fingers in our culture, Daniel (34:26.027) That's a great idea, yeah. Kristen (34:54.454) There are lot other cultures that do a lot better job of wrapping in your role as an adult as you age. We do a horrible job of that, I think, sometimes in our country. And so a lot of senior adults I work with, they're just not used to being connected with on a level playing field. You know, we kind of like start talking down to older adults. Don't do that. They, again, senior adults are so resilient. They're so wise. and just treat them with respect. So when you play those games, know, treat them like an equal. You might have to modify, change, but that doesn't have to change the way you hold them in respect. so I would say there, start with them and then be willing to change, be willing to improvise if needed for deficits and either cognitive or physical. Yeah, those are kind of be my main rules. yeah. Daniel (35:57.333) I like that. Start with them, respect them, and then be willing to change, be adaptable for accessibility issues or, yeah, yeah, good, good. Kristen (36:01.927) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen (36:06.411) Yeah. And really be present in the process. Again, it's not so much about the end rules, you know, although it's fun if they win, it's fun if you win, but it's really not about that. It's really about the process and kind of opening that space for conversation and interaction. Yeah. Yeah. I have one client in particular who, and She has even told me this, know, when your world gets smaller, your relationships get fewer. You just have fewer things to do to keep yourself occupied. She's very bored and she'll just tell me, I'm so bored. And games are really one of the only things she has left. And she's told me that. like, this is really one of the only things that I have left that I can do. Kevin (36:45.247) Hmm. Kristen (36:55.382) So it's really important for her that we do engage that way, but it's really important for her too, that she finds ways to engage with other people in her community. So that's actually part of her healing is giving her the confidence to take this love of games, which is a fun way to connect with somebody, but take this love of games into her retirement community and kind of spread that with others so that she can build community in that way. So, yeah. Kevin (36:56.415) Jeez. Kevin (37:21.139) Hmm. Look at that. Kristen (37:24.576) So it's really cool. Daniel (37:27.851) play saves the world. I love it. that's, that's right. Not to, no, I, I love that's right. I mean, Kristen, you and I were talking about this a day or two ago in preparation for episode, but Kevin, I'm interested in your thoughts on this too. And of course Kristen's as well, but. Kevin (37:29.759) There you go. Kristen (37:30.684) It's an appropriate title for this. Kevin (37:34.527) That's the season one cliffhanger right there Daniel (37:52.171) One of the things that has struck me over the years in talking with other guests and talking with other, you know, we talk mainly with hobby board gamers is how often we hear, not always, but how often we hear that a person's love of gaming began when they were children, like playing. Dominoes with their grandparents or something like that, you know or and just how or you know Go fish with their grandparents or you know, whatever but just how how often For adults who love games there's a story of some intergenerational play, know when they were growing up around a gaming table and I just I think yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful thing I don't I don't if I don't that gels at all with any of your experience Kevin or Kevin (38:50.537) Yeah, yeah, I think everyone probably goes back to those primal moments, but I also think too, you get those adult moments or older child moments. I remember playing Trivial Pursuit with my best friend in elementary school and we just had to memorize the cards because we didn't know these things from the 60s, right? So it became a game of the game or all these random sports facts about, you World Series baseball. Daniel (39:10.483) Yeah, right, right, right. Kevin (39:19.839) So yeah, for me, I hear you. yeah, but for me, I think it was more of, it was generational, right? I was playing with my friends and then playing with other adults recently in some ways. So maybe I broke the mold, I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm trying to remember. I guess I do vaguely remember playing Scrabble with my family. Yeah. Daniel (39:29.023) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (39:33.291) Okay, right, right, that makes sense. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's no right or wrong, yeah. Daniel (39:43.775) Yeah. I didn't think I had any memories of playing with my grandparents either. And then as Chris and I were talking about yesterday, I did remember a moment where I was playing Scrabble with my granddad. Yeah. But yeah. And you, Kristen? Yeah. Kevin (39:56.127) Ooh. Kristen (39:59.454) played yeah yeah I played I played hearts and well spades spades mostly with my dad my dad loves spades so it's why I'm kind of good at trick take trick taking games now and I don't like them because it brings up all of those feelings of like I gotta do a good job playing partner here but but Daniel (40:11.004) You're very good at them. Yes. Kevin (40:12.255) Hmm. Kevin (40:21.887) You Kristen (40:23.732) But then I remembered though, when we were talking about playing with grandparents, did remember, yes, my grandfather in church, I guess I must have been a squirmy kid, I don't know, but he would play that dot game, you know, where you draw lots of dots on a piece of paper, and then you take turns drawing lines until somebody gets squares, and then all of sudden you trigger domino effect of filling in all the squares. And we would play that during church, during the sermon, I guess. Kevin (40:42.064) yeah. Kevin (40:48.511) Hmm. Kristen (40:50.996) Which is funny to me now because he was such a, he was such a faithful Baptist, you know, I can't imagine him not listening. But I don't know. So we play. No, it's very, I thought it was a pretty cool game. I loved it, you know, but I was probably four or five. So, but yes, I do remember that. And he was a very playful soul too. I think we didn't play a lot of. Daniel (40:58.398) What else are gonna do during a sermon? I mean that's, yeah. Kevin (41:00.297) that's right he probably was listening i mean it's not a hard game rates so he was listening That's sweet. Kristen (41:16.682) board games together that I remember, but he was a playful soul. I just remember that about him. And so he probably instilled at least that sense of fun and play and adventure, I think, that I have. So, yeah. Kevin (41:22.164) Hmm. Daniel (41:33.45) Playfulness instills confidence and competence, as I recall you saying. I love that. That's going to be a nice mantra from this episode. Thank you. So, yeah. Kristen (41:33.866) Yeah. It does, it really does, yeah. Kevin (41:42.975) That's right. Kristen (41:43.178) Yeah. Kevin (41:45.983) Well, let's do a top five from Kristen and we can jump in, but I don't really have anything. So let's hear from Kristen. Daniel (41:48.264) Yes. What are some top five games that you would recommend people play with older aging adults? Kristen (41:52.342) Five. well, they're not they don't have to be ranked. Do I do have to do a ranking or can it just I list the top five? Is that okay? Do I do I get a drum roll each time? well, I think I'm just gonna give you five, in not in any particular order. But first is, and I put them in the same category, banana Graham Scrabble, any kind of tile letter based tile game. Kevin (42:03.987) Yes, this is a bullet point list, not a numbered list. Daniel (42:03.999) However you want to, yeah, however you want to do it, yes. Number five. Kevin (42:12.574) I Daniel (42:14.28) Yeah, that sounds good. Kristen (42:23.87) It's just such a familiar and old classic. A lot of people have played it. And so it picks up easily. Scrabbles, it kind of depends on if they know the rules to play full blown Scrabble, but it is definitely one game that I bring them. And in Bananagram, so I love the flexibility of it. can manipulate those tiles, play any kind of game I want to with those. So that's a good one to take. The second one. Rummy Cube. And I got that one from your, you know, your mother loved it. Yeah, my mother, my mother-in-law, we played that a lot. She loved that game. And the tiles are chunky, they're easy to pick up for most people. And they're also pretty big letters. so, and I find that number games actually do really well with a lot of people. Kevin (42:54.707) Mm-hmm. Kevin (42:59.007) Aww, how sweet. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (43:00.574) Yes. She loved it. Kevin (43:09.407) Mm-hmm. Kristen (43:20.534) numbers where you're matching numbers or sets of numbers. I don't know if it's because we all have this uh speaking of primal primal memory of Jen Rummy I don't know you know our primal memory of these like sets and runs uh but Rummy Cube works really well um for most people uh again it's it's easy to learn but it's also got very easy to read and play with components. Tak tak. Yeah right yeah Kevin (43:30.642) Right. Kevin (43:41.937) It's tactile, being able to grab things like dominoes and stuff is vital. Yeah, that makes sense. Kristen (43:48.342) Yeah and next I would put corkle in there for that same reason too. Quirkels tiles are huge chunky squares so they're easy for people to pick up. The colors are very bright on a black background so most people can make them out. I do have a few clients who have trouble making out the reds versus the orange. Again that's a color blindness issue but also just that macular degeneration and cataracts stuff that they kind of affect how you see. But for the most part people can see that and it depends on sets. Daniel (43:58.537) Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:05.532) Mm-hmm. Kevin (44:07.455) Mm-hmm. Kristen (44:17.854) The Quirkl is a little complicated. It's harder, I think, to pick up than RemiCube because it's got some weird rules about you can only play one line at a time, or you know, or you can, and you can, but I sort of describe it to people like, well, think of Scrabble, you know, how you can play right next to a word as long as it makes other words, know, so I kind of explain it in Scrabble language to people, but that one's easy to pick up. Domino's again, these old classics, but most people are familiar with Domino's and they teach me games out. We haven't talked about that. Like, so sometimes I take in a game that I don't know, but I'm asking them to teach me as a form of cognitive stimulation. So I actually, I actually did that with one of my clients recently. Yeah. It's like, cause I have no memory of how to play train or whatever it's called in Domino's and, I was, yeah. Kevin (44:50.527) Hmm. Daniel (44:50.528) yeah. Kevin (44:59.561) Right. That's awesome, yeah. Kevin (45:08.479) Mexican train is what I always heard it called. Kristen (45:12.178) Right. And so I said, can you teach me? And she did. She taught me how to play. then after that was one of those sessions where I was like, OK, now how do you feel now compared to how you felt before? She's like, yeah, I feel a little better. You know, it took her mind off of things for a little while. And then one I've recently started taking, Sky Joe, I played that just this week. Daniel (45:27.924) Need. Kristen (45:36.776) But I would also throw in that category and I think they will work too. I haven't used them, but I'm going to plant it was like six and no thanks. Any of those card games that use numbers, I think those were will work well and they're easy to pick up. You have to again, be careful if you can't hold cards or pick up cards, but those are good. Can I can I go beyond five and just give a few more? Is that OK? yes. OK, some. Kevin (46:00.594) No. Daniel (46:01.041) Honorable mention. We love honorable mentions. Kevin (46:04.521) Five dot two. Kristen (46:04.924) These actually do fall in the honorable mention category then, but actually these are these are ones that work better for people maybe with memory loss. So, so the things in rings again, that's very adaptable and it's just fun. There's so many different cards. they're easy to see. They're not abstract. That's my problem with Roy story cubes. They're stick people and they're doing weird things that you can't always tell. I can't even tell. They say, what is this? And I'm like, I don't know. Just use your imagination. Daniel (46:07.431) Honorable Mentions. Daniel (46:12.978) Okay, okay. Kevin (46:32.99) Right. Kristen (46:33.322) People with memory loss have a hard time with abstract thinking. So sometimes, so there's this game out there called, my last game I'll mention is a game called We See. I don't think you can even call it a game hardly. It's O-U-I-S-I. So it's like French yes and Spanish yes, We See. And it's a card, they're just. Kevin (46:52.627) Okay. Kristen (46:56.042) decks of cards with images on them usually just really close up images of things like maybe a close up image of an egg or close up image of a hubcap or so the idea behind this game is like these images you're supposed to find connection even abstract connections like OK that's a hubcap circular this picture of a donut is circular so there's different variations of the games like you can create chains of cards if they're similar or you can I think I mostly use them with my clients just to generate stories so or maybe I'll take in cards that only have foods on them it's like what are some your favorite foods here you know things like that so it's barely a game you can play games with it and it's actually touted as a card game for individuals or senior adults with memory loss I find it a little hard to use sometimes if Daniel (47:48.381) Hmm Kristen (47:52.766) someone's not capable of abstract thinking. So, but I just wanted to bring it up because it is a game out there that's kind of designed specifically for that purpose. And it can work, but you just might have to adapt it or kind of make your own rules. And they encourage that. Daniel (48:10.377) sounds like kind of the StoryCube's idea but in card form sort of or in a way maybe. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Kristen (48:16.343) Yeah, but a lot more visual. Yeah, it's a lot more visual. Yeah, so you can create stories. I think that is one of the alternate games that you can do, you know, like create a story with the cards. But they more kind of just encourage like matching visual components and shapes and things like that. So, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (48:32.841) Great, great. Those are great games. Bananagrams, slash Scrabble, Remicube, Quirkle, Dominoes, Sky Joe, things in rings, adapted, and we see. I like him, yeah. Kevin (48:41.663) Mm-hmm. Kristen (48:43.124) Yep. Yep. Yeah. Kevin (48:44.979) We owe you I yeah a Dutch Blitz might work. Well, did you ever play Dutch Blitz? Because it's numbers and stacking Yeah, yeah And you could just slow it down right like you could do it not because there's a little bit of like playing war. Yeah Kristen (48:50.774) Hmm. Yes, that was another Hilti family favorite. Yep. Huh. Yes, no pressure. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah. Hmm. Daniel (48:56.935) It's a good Mennonite game, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (49:04.125) That would be fun. Daniel (49:08.039) Kevin, I've heard of a Mennonite youth group at a church that built like a giant Dutch blitz set. Like each card was like two and a half feet long and they played it on a big field. they would go on it and to, that's right. That would be fun. That'd be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. That's, I could see that. No, no, you can't. Kevin (49:22.564) It's like a Harry Potter chess scene that's really funny. Kristen (49:26.518) that would be fun. Kevin (49:29.983) Especially because you're racing, right? And it's pacifist, so you can't push them out of the way to get your card down first. Kristen (49:36.576) Thank Daniel (49:37.159) You can't, however you can make them feel very guilty about it if you wanted to. you... Kristen (49:40.31) Not good if you're on a walker or a cane, but otherwise it's a good game to play. Daniel (49:45.918) Those are great. Also, just if it's, and you might notice, you all might notice already, but I've just recently learned that Sky Joe, you know, is kind of variation of a game called golf. play with a deck of cards, but there's another commercial game out there that may be even more, maybe more readily available called Play Nine. That basically is the same thing as Sky Joe as well. So if a person can't find Sky Joe, Play 9 might be a, you can maybe find Play 9, but. Kevin (50:19.731) What is Sky Joe again? SKY type Sky Joe. Kristen (50:23.214) SKYJO, yeah, and it's like a target. You put 12 cards out in a tablet or cards out in a tablet of 12 and you're basically trying the numbers go from negative 2 to 12 and you're trying to get rid of the high cards by either replacing them from the draw pile or drawing from the discard pile. And so the person with the fewer points kind of wins that or Kevin (50:25.279) Check out. Kristen (50:50.55) you keep track of the points but the person with the fewest points wins. So you're just trying to get rid of those high cards basically. So that's pretty easy. I yeah and I played this this week and the person I was playing with they were actually picking up on those strategies too like oh I you know oh and there's a cool there is one cool rule which makes it fun if you get one row of all the same numbers even if they're high numbers they disappear and they go away. So Kevin (50:57.247) But that's clear rules, yeah. Kevin (51:13.907) you Kristen (51:15.494) She was kind of getting that strategy of like, okay, I've hung on to these sevens for a little while, but I don't want to hold on to them anymore. It's kind of risky now. So she started getting rid of those. yeah, I, I love playing games with her because she picks up on those strategy things too. So yeah. Kevin (51:29.759) Aww. Daniel (51:31.625) You talked about how word games are not necessarily the best games to play. Would you say that, I think I hear you saying this, but correct me if wrong, number games, do they tend to be more accessible? Like, is the capacity for numbers stays with you longer in shapes? Kristen (51:48.286) think so. Numbers and shapes. Yeah, numbers and shapes. That's why Quirkl is so, colors, numbers, shapes, colors. But again, yeah, never condescend. There's going to be some people that can whip your butt at Scrabble every time. So it just really depends on the person and what they're used to playing. But for cognitive changes, because language is impacted. Daniel (52:04.967) Right. Kristen (52:16.591) one of the first things that's usually impacted or pretty quickly with Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia. So you just have to be very in tune with kind of where they're at. But at the same time, you know, what I've been doing with cognitive stimulation therapy is to help maintain memory as long as possible. That is one of its benefits. You cognitive stimulation therapy has been shown. to maintain, I mean you're eventually going to lose memory, but it will help you maintain that memory longer, better than medicine alone, if paired with that medicine that we have for memory loss. you know we don't, so it's a great adjunctive to have if you're taking certain medications for memory loss. It's great to have this component as well. would help you. So I'm bringing in words. It's not like I shy away from language games or shy away from words because it's really important. But we focus more on open-ended gameplay like, like, like a lot of word association games. And I'll, I'll just do those. Daniel (53:07.037) Yeah, yeah. Kristen (53:21.826) without a board game or a formal board game. But if I'm bringing in my bananagrams, again, we'll do that. Okay, I wrote the word birds. You know, can you think of another bird that can cross that? You know, we're playing while also doing word recall and word association at the same time. And I'm not quizzing people. I'm providing and guiding to the answer if needed. But it's still kind of using their brain to kind of make those connections and those tracks in ways that will be. helpful to maintaining that so in a stress free and in a way so. Daniel (53:55.602) I just love it. It's just wonderful work. Yeah. Kevin (53:57.151) That's awesome. That's great. Kristen (53:59.892) Yeah, thank you. It is fun. does feel like, yeah, it feels like really, it feels like really fun stuff and important stuff to do. Daniel (54:10.505) Definitely. Well, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of your work with us today. Kristin, this has been great. Kristen (54:12.01) Yeah. Kristen (54:17.994) Thank you so much for inviting me and letting me have my 15 seconds of fame on Play So Soar Up. Daniel (54:23.497) Eternal fame. Yeah, this has been great. And Kristen, if people are interested in learning more, how could they find you? Kevin (54:23.613) Yay. Kristen (54:36.308) Yeah, well, I have a Facebook account. You can search my name, but I also am on psychology today and as a therapist in the Columbia, Missouri area. So you can find me there. Yeah. Daniel (54:46.195) Yeah, great, great. Okay. Kevin, any final gems of wisdom? Kevin (54:54.557) No, just, it's amazing. You just keep learning how games can have so many positive impacts. So who knew, who knew that with senior adults, a therapeutic role for board games, that's awesome. Daniel (55:01.693) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (55:08.199) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and dear listeners and viewers, please know we would love to hear from you anytime as well. Maybe if you want to share an experience of playing with an aging adult or some reflections or thoughts on your own experiences in that area, please share with us. We'd love to hear. You can reach us at playsavestheworld.com or info at playsavestheworld.org or on our Instagram account. Kevin, Kristen, anything else? Kevin (55:42.429) Have a great day. Daniel (55:43.143) All right. Thanks so much, everybody. Bye bye. Have a good day. Kristen (55:43.178) Good, thank you so much. Kevin (55:45.779) Bye bye.