Daniel (00:02.926) hosting a game night at a shelter on this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. Daniel (00:32.472) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:38.195) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:40.394) And we are so happy and grateful that you have decided to click on that link and listen to our episode today. Thank you for joining us. We hope that you feel all sorts of welcome. And Kevin, I hope you feel all sorts of welcome because this is your podcast. Kevin (00:58.901) I felt welcome, Daniel, from the moment I saw this event on my personal calendar. Daniel (01:04.494) That's amazing. Well, I am honored to be connected with that sense of welcome. Speaking of our podcast, I have a special announcement about today that you don't know about yet, but I'll get to that in a second. First of all, more importantly, how are you doing? Kevin (01:05.783) because your name was on it. Kevin (01:09.719) Pastor, Kevin (01:23.659) Well, I'm excited. I'm anticipating right now. I don't know he's gonna do. So cool. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. Very good. Thanks for good. And how about you? Daniel (01:27.042) mean, it's not that big, it's something. It's something. Yeah, it's not that big. Good, good. Great, great. We were just, yeah, I'm doing fine. Thanks. Right before we started recording, you and I were just to tell our listeners, we're just talking about Ash Wednesday. At the time of this recording, we just passed Ash Wednesday, which is the start of the season of Lent in the Christian tradition, which is kind of. Kevin (01:55.083) Lent means what, Daniel? Daniel (01:56.596) It's a six week season of preparation for what I always say in the church is preparation for the cross of Good Friday and the empty tomb of Easter morning. But it's kind of the events of Holy Week. Kevin (02:06.879) Hmm, but and that's true, but what does it mean etymologically? Do know this one? Daniel (02:12.67) I think it relates to the same word that gives us lengthen, like how the days are starting to lengthen. So they called it Lent, but I may be wrong on that. How about you? What do you think? Kevin (02:21.687) It's old English. It's old English for spring. That's all I know. It may be the same root, but it's just the word for spring. It's spring in these parts. It be springing out in this piece. Daniel (02:25.39) okay, okay. Nice. That would explain then why at our Lenten dinner they called the bread spring rolls. Because it was during the, no, just, made that up. was horrible. It wasn't even funny. It wasn't even funny. Hey! Kevin (02:44.811) The funny thing is I pictured actual bread that actually spring rolls aren't bread at all because they're crunchy little like egg rolls. Why do we call those rolls? They're not roll-like. They're cylinders. it's because it's rolled up. Because it's not a bread roll. Right. Daniel (02:51.79) Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Well, they're rolled up. Yeah, like it's rolled up in a wrap maybe. Right, right, yeah. So here's the minor, here's the announcement of rather underwhelming excitement, the minor excitement announcement. You ready for this? Kevin (03:04.481) Words are dumb. Kevin (03:17.811) It's the next volume of my memoirs, think. Underwhelming excitement. Go ahead, Daniel. Daniel (03:19.79) You might know this already, but today is the third year anniversary for our podcast. Yeah, yeah, three years ago, the first episode dropped. Kevin (03:25.705) Uh-huh. Today. Kevin (03:35.191) I recorded on my middle child's birthday and I didn't remember either one. It's embarrassing. Yeah, March 10th. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (03:42.958) Oh, it's today? Oh, this is your middle child's birthday. That's why we're what you're saying earlier. How exciting. Kevin (03:50.784) except I didn't remember our podcast. Three years? That's crazy. It seems both longer and shorter. Time is strange. Daniel (03:53.496) Well. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It does. been, there's been a lot of, a lot of, a lot of life that's happened over the last three years. Well, happy birthday to your middle child as well. And I didn't, I didn't realize today was the day. Thanks for recording a podcast on that special day. Kevin (04:03.39) years. Kevin (04:08.961) Thank you, Daniel, thank you. Today is the day. Yes, yes, yes, two hours to the DMV. Daniel (04:17.23) And you said that went well though, right? Kevin (04:19.101) It went well. When your number is called up, you're done. Yeah, it went well. Up yonder. Yeah, we went in. Yes, yes. But it's been a good week for both of us, right? Especially because you had a new experience, Daniel, that you wanted to talk to us about, which is you did a game night at a shelter for people who were unhoused. And I want to hear more about that. Daniel (04:23.488) Up yonder. Yeah. Good, good, good, good, great. Daniel (04:31.778) Yeah. Daniel (04:36.258) Yeah. Daniel (04:43.64) That's right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. This was a brand new experience for me. And I thought it might be an interesting topic for our podcast, for our listeners. We hope that you'll find it interesting for those of you who are our listeners. I'm not unfamiliar with shelters. We've had various... experiences and opportunities over the years with that. There's certainly, there are a lot of people out there who are more familiar with them than I am, but in terms of volunteering. But, But this was the first time hosting a game night at a shelter. So a little bit of background. At the church where I have the honor of serving and the joy of serving right now, we have a group called the Arts and Worship Team. And they're wonderful. And they're just amazing. They are an independent team, not connected to the church, but especially two persons who just decided that they wanted to come together to... support the arts at our church. And so what that means is, no, no, they do, they do attend worship on Sunday. Yes, yes, they're both super active, super involved. But I should say, like, it's not like an official committee of the church or anything. Like, we don't nominate people for this team or anything. It's something that they just decided out of the grace of their hearts to do. so over the years, they've supported Kevin (05:59.978) But you're saying they don't attend worship on Sundays. Kevin (06:12.023) I see what you mean. Daniel (06:22.446) artists and residents in the church and dramatists in the church and singers, musicians, different art projects. And so they're just wonderful and they're great. So the arts are a big part of our church, thanks in large part to these two wonderful women who lead our arts and worship group. Well, that's one part of the background. The other part of the background is a couple of years ago, there was a member of the community, the city. Kevin (06:35.479) Mm-hmm. Daniel (06:52.61) where we live, which is Columbia, Missouri, college town, that there's a member of our community who not connected with our church, who decided that he wanted to put up an instance of a piece of art that this artist has made all over the world. He has these installations of the same piece of art all over the world. And that is the figure of Jesus. covered in a blanket and laying on a park bench. And with this idea that Jesus is kind of a state that one would associate with being unhoused. And this is before I got to this church, but this person in our community very graciously approached our church and asked if he could put that statue there. We're a downtown church, so a lot of people could see it as they walked in. to and fro downtown and students going to classes and things like that. And so a couple years ago, this statue was put up in front of our church. And at the time that it was put up, I spoke with the donor since I arrived. He said there was kind of this unofficial hope that once a year we could do something related to the issue of homelessness in our city or... issues related to people who are unhoused in our city and challenges facing persons like that. And it, which was a great idea, but the challenge was, it was kind of hard to think of what to do because our city has a lot of wonderful resources already and a lot of wonderful ministries already. And we didn't want to reduplicate efforts. And so at that point, eventually we talked to more people, kind of the idea emerged to, well, what if we could do something with the arts? Because And Kevin, this podcast and this conversation that we've been having the last three years and the wonderful insights that you have had, I think really just kind of brought to the fore of my mind in this conversation as well, that what we have said often, that play is not a luxury, that it's an essential part of being human. And it's an essential part of the human experience. And if we... Kevin (09:09.941) Hmm Daniel (09:17.846) If we don't think it is, we deny people the essential part of what it means to be human. In fact, I think in some episodes we've talked about play being a human right, which I would agree with. Yeah. And so if that's true, then the idea emerged, why don't we have what we call, ended up calling creativity arts and play nights. And this was done in conjunction with our arts and worship team. And so they did a lot more work than I did. Kevin (09:28.405) Mm-hmm, we have. Daniel (09:48.034) They organized over the course of a month at a local shelter for unhoused persons in our town. They organized one night when somebody came in to do drama and comedy, interactive with the guests. Another night when our contemporary worship service band is going to be coming in to play music. Another night. When an artist is coming in to lead art, the people can make art there that night with supplies being offered. Another night where they're going to be learning dancing and some line dancing, a line dancer teacher is coming in and then another night of a game night, a board games night. Yeah. And so as you might assume, I led the line dancing night. Kevin (10:16.236) Mm-hmm. Kevin (10:26.475) Hmm. Kevin (10:31.755) That's great. Daniel (10:40.462) No, that was a joke. That's right. That's right. No, that was a joke. I led the board game night. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thrilled to do that. So I knew this was coming up. So anyway, that's the background. can tell you about kind of the next steps if you'd like, but I don't want to keep talking. Just OK. OK. So. Kevin (10:40.503) Don't you break Daniel's heart, his achy, breaky heart. won't. Kevin (11:00.971) No, I want to hear about the next steps, because you went on the board game community. That was at BGG, Board Game Geek. Board Game Geek is all. Daniel (11:06.346) Yes, that's right. Board Game Geek, that's right. That's right. So I didn't know what to do, how to do. I I was interested in like how to do this because I've hosted a lot of game nights before and I've to a lesser extent been involved in ministries at shelters before, but I've never done a game night at a shelter before. And so I got on the Board Game Geek website in their forum section, in the community section of the forum. Kevin (11:27.809) Sure. Daniel (11:35.838) for and said, hey, here's what's happening. I'm hosting a game night at a local shelter for persons who aren't housed. And what advice has anyone else out there ever done this? And what advice would you have? And Kevin, it was wonderful. The the outpouring of kind words and support and suggestions as well. I think there ended up including Kevin (11:51.671) Mm. Daniel (12:04.064) my three posts, there were ended up being 31 posts in the conversation. So 28 other contributors. And Kevin, this is so geeky, but I have to say, if I'm being honest, it was a moment of excitement and pride for me. On one day, at least for one day, the thread was listed on the front page of BoardGameGeek as a hot discussion. Yes, it was a hot discussion. Kevin (12:10.231) It's a lot. Daniel (12:34.082) And I was excited because up until that point, the only hot discussions I've ever had was whether to have Tapatio or Sriracha. Kevin (12:41.023) Right. Those are both good choices. Apatia is really good. And there's also that there's a raging discussion, honey, where are my pants? There's that one. That was a big hit. Daniel (12:44.6) So anyway, yeah, yeah. Daniel (12:50.763) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good one. Good one, Did I hear you say under your breath? Are you a top of Tio fan? Kevin (12:56.895) I am a Top of Tia fan. good. really good. In fact, someone was telling a story that they had it somewhere like in Argentina or something. I don't remember where, but somewhere in South America and they're like, this is the best sauce ever. And they were just so shocked to get back and find it at the Food Lion grocery store in Alvaro, North Carolina. They thought it was that to be some fancy import or something. Yeah. Daniel (13:01.311) to you. Daniel (13:16.334) That's awesome. That's awesome. would have to go to where do you say Argentina yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no I love it Kevin (13:25.053) I can't, yeah, something like that. It's something south of South Carolina. That was only my vague remembrance. know, I'm a, I'm almost 53, Daniel. I'm lucky that I can find my pants. This is, this is a miracle. Yes. So no offense to the original story. Daniel (13:31.447) Okay, okay. Daniel (13:37.708) I understand, I understand, it happens. You know, no, no, that's fine. You know, the, the, the, I think the slogan for Tapatio is es una salsa muy salsa, which I don't speak Spanish, but I think that means like it's, it's, it's one salsa, but many salsas or a lot of salsa or, something like that, which I always thought was a great, a great slogan. So. Kevin (13:52.833) sauce, the wave sauce. Kevin (14:03.381) as in Kevin (14:07.593) I think it's maybe saying it's the sauce of sauces. Daniel (14:10.729) it's the sauce, the sauce of sauce, sauce, sauce. It's hard to say. It's the sauce, very sauce. Kevin (14:14.039) It's a sauce, very sauce. Daniel (14:22.166) All of our listeners in Spanish speaking countries right now are, it's a super saucy sauce. Kevin (14:24.191) It's a super saucy sauce. Yeah, that's what it's basically saying. It's more saucy, more salsa. Yeah, salsa is just sauce. That's funny. but guess what? It's made in America. From California. That's too funny. It's actually an American product. But so is Sriracha, I think. It's made in America, right? Yeah, it's an American product. It's based on like, like a Daniel (14:32.374) Okay, okay. All right. Thank you. What? No, no. Well, I mean, that's good, I guess. I mean, for people who are in the company, but that's interesting. Daniel (14:50.071) I think that's right. Kevin (14:53.335) Vietnamese businessman recipe, but it was actually made in America, so it's not as foreign as we think. Daniel (14:54.998) Recipe? Yeah. Or something? Yeah. Daniel (15:01.132) Okay, okay. A couple of years ago, my family got me Tapatio socks for Christmas. It's great. Yeah, that was great. I liked it. So anyway, so it was a hot discussion on, I saw, I see what you did. That was nice. I like it. I like it. This conversation's getting spicy. So I asked Board Game Geek community for their advice. It was a hot discussion. I was so happy and proud. Kevin (15:03.529) on import. you have best family ever. That's awesome. I mean, that's awesome. Kevin (15:17.463) That's awesome. Anywho, yes, top of the... Daniel (15:31.295) and got a lot of good suggestions what especially struck me about this, the posts, the responses was how many of them not only just made suggestions about game titles, but really were encouraging sensitivity to the situation of the persons with whom I'd be playing games. Kevin (15:58.37) Such as what? Like what were they looking for? Daniel (16:00.642) Yeah, just, you know, just anticipating, just living in very stressful circumstances, right? And just, just under, under a lot of duress under, in the midst of context that can create a lot of anxiety and worry and fear. And, and I, and I think, and some of suggestions were in the midst of all that, you know, And also we only had just an hour to play the game. So wasn't, you we didn't have a lot of time anyway, but some of the suggestions were, you know, when you're in the midst of, that's right, that's right. When you're in the midst of stress and anxiety and duress, it's, no one is in a good, is in the best possible situation to learn a really, you know, complicated game like Loomhaven. It has nothing to do with the person's ability to learn games, it's just that. Kevin (16:35.287) So you set up Glimhaven. Kevin (16:49.974) Right. Daniel (16:58.402) when we're stressed, there's only so much of energy that we can devote to something like this. so because of the suggestions of games that anyone could learn quickly, that doesn't add to the stressful situation. And so there were lot of suggestions for cooperative games. And I ended up bringing a good chunk of cooperative games. Kevin (17:07.511) Mm-hmm. Daniel (17:26.53) that could be taught and played within an hour pretty easily. And so, so that's what I did. So last week we arrived at the night and I ended up bringing, you wanna hear what games I brought? Okay. Kevin (17:46.295) I wanna hear what games you brought. Daniel (17:51.502) I'm going to be interested to see if you've played any of these. I brought just one. Kevin (17:51.681) Just one. Just one? Tell us trations, just one. No, yeah. Daniel (18:00.908) Just One Game. And the game was... Twilight Imperium. It was not. I brought the game titled Just One. Just One was the name of the game, which you know we've talked about. That's right, that's right. I also brought Bandito. Have you played Bandito? It's a fun cooperative game, card game. We're basically... Kevin (18:02.583) Just one game, just one. Kevin (18:15.937) But the first clue was Twilight and Birria. Kevin (18:22.539) Bendy door, I don't know that one. I don't know Bendy door. Daniel (18:31.598) person is trying to dig tunnels out of a prison and you're laying these cards on a table as the tunnels spread out and you're trying to block the escape. You're like, you're the law. You're trying to stop the escape. Anyway, so that's bandito. That's also cooperative. Just one is also cooperative. I also brought, this was a suggestion from the Board Game Geek community, Micro Macro, Crime City. Have you played Micro Macro? Yeah, yeah. So for... Kevin (18:42.177) Hmm. Okay. Kevin (18:47.169) Hmm. Hmm. Kevin (18:53.619) Mm-hmm. I have one of those. Yes, it's fun. It's cute. Daniel (19:00.47) listeners aren't familiar with it. It's just it's a giant. It's a giant, giant, giant line drawing of a city. I don't know, maybe three feet by four feet, five feet with that. Kevin (19:13.271) 15 meters by 96 microns, I think, roughly. Daniel (19:16.822) I think that's right. I think that's right. You can see it from the moon. If you spread it all the way out and you played in your backyard, you actually can. No, that's right. That's right. Yeah. But there are little, it's kind of like a where's Waldo vibe. Like, like, like the drawings are so intricate, you can't take it all in. And there are different mysteries that you're trying to solve by finding different little tiny things in the picture. so that's, so it's also cooperative game. Also fun. I brought Quirkl and I know you're a fan of Quirkl. Kevin (19:26.007) It's not because Daniel set it on fire. It's not the fire. It was just the need of... Kevin (19:50.903) Cool cool cool Daniel (19:52.434) I brought Similo, which this goes back to a lot of the games I had on my top 10 list, but Similo also cooperative game of trying to find cards, trying to find a secret animal in a deck of cards. brought Strike, the dice game, which is a family favorite. And then I brought Surow and Strike and Surow are, Surow is spelled T-S-U-R-O. Those are both competitive games. Kevin (19:57.752) Mm-hmm. Daniel (20:21.056) So I brought those games. ended up only playing three of those games because it was a wonderful night. Only about eight guests wanted to play. Of course, this is not forced. This is out of a total maybe of like 80 or 90 guests, but about eight guests wanted to play. And we had three volunteers, the two leaders of our arts and worship team and myself. Kevin (20:30.753) Mm-mm. Daniel (20:50.324) And so we had two tables going and we played Bandito and Similo and Strike the Dice Game. And it was fun. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (20:55.851) Hmm. Hmm. Daniel (21:03.182) So, so it was a good night. But you know, the best thing about it, as always is true for things like this, is... got to know folks around the table more, we got to know each other around the table more and building relationship is always kind of the secret joy of anything like this, right? I'm sure you've been in circles like this too, Kevin, where they talk about, you know, there's an old story they talk about in pastoring a church ministry that Kevin (21:38.272) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:48.994) You know, I think I maybe mentioned this at the podcast where, know, after potluck dinner one night, someone's in the kitchen cleaning up the dishes and then there's someone else and you got two people washing the dishes together and someone says, well, you know, you can clean up the dishes a lot faster if one person just loads them up into this dishwasher and then goes. And the pastor says, well, that is true, but you know. at least in this context, the point really isn't about washing the dishes, it's about the conversations you have with the person who's drying the dishes as you wash them or things like that. Which is so often the case for play. It's a good opportunity to build a relationship. And I was surprised by how much of that relationship building on the table was based on play. There was one gentleman, Kevin (22:24.769) Hmm. Kevin (22:28.917) Right, right. Kevin (22:33.515) Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:49.145) that I'll call Mark. Mark was not his real name. But I said, so Mark, you know, yeah, are you a big game player? he said, I said, I want to come over for the games. I said, great. You're a big game player. He said, oh, yeah. I said, what do like to play? And he started talking about all the video games that he that he has enjoyed over the course of his life. He started with Fortnite. I've never played Fortnite. Have you ever played Fortnite? Kevin (23:11.21) I have played Fortnite. Daniel (23:12.972) What's your nutshell appraisal of Fortnite? Kevin (23:16.009) It's fun, but it's very stressful. But yeah, you're just running around trying to grab stuff, capture the flag type thing, sort of trying to get to somewhere. Or I guess this last man standing, you want to be the last person that survives. Daniel (23:21.463) Okay. Daniel (23:28.567) Okay, okay. Kevin (23:30.325) Yeah, it's fun. It's fun, but it is very like somebody runs up behind you and kills you. You're like, yeah. Daniel (23:35.086) Okay. I told him the only thing I knew about Fortnite was that it involved dances. Kevin (23:40.587) Yes, there is some dancing. Daniel (23:42.69) Yeah. What is the function of Fortnite dancing? Kevin (23:46.703) I think it's only when you're about to go to the island to fight when you're in the waiting room basically you can do dances there. Daniel (23:54.582) It's how you prep? Kevin (23:56.96) Yeah, well, it's like you're just waiting around. can run around and do stuff, but you can't really do anything. I don't know. You can kind of run around and swing your fist, but you can't impact anything. So you can also do dances. Think. I'm sure this is wrong. And some of the dances maybe you've bought with points or coins or something. You can change up your clothing. That's their business model. It's free to play, but if you want to make your character interesting, then you buy stuff. But it doesn't change your abilities. It just gives you swag. Daniel (24:11.118) I like it though. Daniel (24:23.128) you want to but it does change your dance abilities. Kevin (24:27.457) But I think it changes your dance abilities. Because everyone's in there waiting for the game to start. Everyone that's in there. Daniel (24:30.158) So if you want to have some sweet, sweet dance moves, gotta fork out the mula. Kevin (24:37.493) It's what we do at church actually. We have a four-year vestibule and before you enter it you do dance moves before you enter the sanctuary. You don't do that at your church? That's strange. Yeah, it's good model. Because everyone gets there early of course because they don't want to miss out. Daniel (24:43.542) Mm, I like it. Well, that's a good model. I'm going to try to, and I'm assuming based on this, right. Can they upgrade their dances by playing it, by paying additional money to the church? Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (24:55.489) They can, they actually can. We do some things like if you volunteer with the kids ministry three times and you get the St. Patrick's Day hat and you can do the St. Patrick's Day dance. So it's all based on volunteering and helping out. Daniel (25:05.122) Nice, nice. I think that is the spirit of the church. I love it. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (25:14.289) I so. It was Saint Peter who said, Thou mayest dance if thou hast performeth the good works for thy neighboreth. I think that's in the alternate ending of Matthew. Daniel (25:26.274) That's, yes, that was Zechariah 4-2-B, right? I think. Yeah, yeah. We Methodists, we know our Bible, darn it. Kevin (25:41.057) We're creative. That is great. So you got to meet Mark and he loved video games and... Daniel (25:42.35) So, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we started and I and then we progressed to talking about the old Mario games, which I do know. And we talked about that and that was just great. And then at some point, Mark said, but you know, Bill and Bill wasn't joining, but those the other gentleman who was at the table where I was, he said, you know, Bill was a published author. And I said, really? And I said, yeah. Kevin (25:53.495) I Mario Kart and things. Daniel (26:11.278) And so Bill, this was, this was like the highlight of the night. This just made the night. Yeah. I mean, many things made the night worth it, but this was one of the things that made the night night night worth it. Bill obviously is unhoused, staying at the shelter. He has two self-published science fiction books that you can buy on Amazon and on Booksamillion. website. And he wrote down the names for me of the books and I went home and I ordered the books and I've got them here. they're science fiction books about kind of a superhero who has the ability to kind of read minds and bend space and time. Kevin (26:43.861) so cool Daniel (27:11.31) and parallel universes is a theme in the books as well. just very, you know, very exciting storyline. And that was just amazing. I that wasn't amazing. It was wonderful. It was wonderful to hear. What I. And I'm so grateful to Bill for, I mean, that kind of witness. I mean, it's a powerful witness that. Daniel (27:49.726) in really challenging circumstances. This playful imagination, right? This playful mind of his allowed him to inhabit parallel universes and places where you could bend space and time and write about it and share it. I think it was just a testament to what we often talk about in this podcast, just the power of play to... Daniel (28:26.894) to make life better in a lot of ways. So, and at the beginning of one of his books, he dedicates the book and thanks the, and adds a lot of thanks to people that he's gotten to know who work at shelters and at churches that have assisted him throughout the Midwest. So anyway, that was one of the highlights of the night was getting to Hereville story to order those books to get to. Kevin (28:44.439) Mm-hmm. Daniel (28:56.712) become familiar with that and just to see the, the blessing that, that that kind of playful creativity was in his life, even in the midst of difficult circumstances. So, yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Kevin (29:10.775) Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing. That you got to connect with people and do board gaming and gaming in general and play in a very different location that, as you said, needs a little bit of joy and connectivity and escape from what's a very troubling reality for a lot of people, I can only imagine, or stressful situation. So we see games at their best, which is giving people a little... Daniel (29:33.464) Yeah. Kevin (29:37.015) A little break from what can be a very cruel world at times. And yeah, that's awesome. Daniel (29:40.898) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was a sense around the table as we talked about what games you'd like to play and parallel universes and space and time that. Daniel (29:55.758) All of that other stuff could be put on the back burner for a little bit, right? And as we... Kevin (29:58.626) Hmm. Daniel (30:06.028) have talked about the gift of play in the past year on the podcast. was just. Daniel (30:13.122) Yeah, we were all just human beings connecting around the table. And it wasn't, at least for a moment or two, it wasn't as much about socioeconomic status or privilege or... Kevin (30:15.671) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:29.474) or anything. Kevin (30:30.519) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:33.08) So yeah, thanks for asking. Thanks for being interested. I hope that was kind of interesting. Kevin (30:37.173) amazing. What a victory lap for you. Such a neat way to combine ministry and play and to be creative. That's this awesome, Daniel. It's all opportunity there. Daniel (30:42.008) Thanks. Daniel (30:47.95) Thanks, thank you, thank you. It was a lot of fun. I hope to do it again. And I would encourage folks out there to give it a try if the opportunity presents itself maybe for something like that as well. And please let us know about it if so we'd to hear from Kevin (31:00.855) Yeah. Kevin (31:05.687) That's right, that's right. All right. Well, next episode, we've got a special guest, correct? Daniel (31:12.608) Yeah, next episode, really excited, thrilled to get to welcome Caleb Cabaniss. Caleb is an actor and a playwright, and he is going to be discussing the role of play and playfulness in acting and theater. And I just, you know, that is a world that in some ways has so much Kevin (31:32.769) Hmm. Daniel (31:42.74) overlap with everything we talk about. mean, we even call theatrical production plays. And yet also wrote in some ways I know very little about. So I'm really excited to hear Caleb's insights and get to chat with him next week, next episode. Yeah. And in the meantime, Kevin, how can people find us? Kevin (31:55.585) Yeah, that's going be really interesting. Kevin (32:03.147) They can find us on Instagram at PlaySavesTheWorld, and they can find us on YouTube at PlaySavesTheWorld, if they just Google that. And they can get to us by email, playsavestheworldatgmail.com. Daniel (32:18.446) That's right. That's right. And we said it last time, but just to say it again, Kevin and I are both going to be at Geekway Conference, a board game convention in St. Charles, Missouri, suburb of St. Louis in May. If you are going to Geekway, if you are in this part of the world and are going to Geekway, please let us know. We'd love to meet up and play a game. Kevin (32:38.839) We'd love to lose at a game with you, yes. Daniel (32:45.169) I will lose. Daniel (32:49.601) in the game of... I've lost the metaphor. Anyway, Kevin will relic. Kevin (32:56.151) Right. Well, will win. I will win the game of not being as awesome as Daniel. Daniel (33:03.646) Mmm, it's an easily, it's a, I don't know how to answer that. Would that be an easily won game? The game is not being as awesome as Daniel. It's an easily lost game because you surpassed me. I don't know. Anyway, all right, whatever it is. I can't parse that. Kevin (33:10.679) You Yeah, it's tricky, it's tricky. I heard a, I think it's a philosophical riddle, the statement, a four-sided triangle is unimaginable. which is a true statement, but troubling because you're kind of imagining it by saying it. It's a true statement, but it's about a falsity. because there is no four-sided triangle. Daniel (33:47.181) four-sided triangle is unimaginable. That is troubling, you know. Kevin (33:50.519) Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think about in the of the night. Like, it is unimaginable. Except I kind of am because I'm thinking about it. But I can't. Daniel (33:55.022) Yeah. Daniel (34:01.08) Yeah, I'll keep contemplating. Kevin (34:04.875) Yeah, it's very strange. Next episode, more deep thoughts. Yeah, four-sided triangles, four-sided triangles. Yep. Daniel (34:06.764) Next episode, four-sided triangles and Caleb. We'll push the triangles off. Kevin (34:18.679) Ding. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye, Catch you later. Yep. Daniel (34:21.292) Bye everybody, thanks for listening.