Daniel (00:03.206) Play saves the world. Episode 8. Do animals play? Daniel (00:27.878) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:38.556) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:41.035) And we are so grateful to have you joining us on this episode about animals and play. And this topic was something that you suggested, Kevin, and I think it's such a great topic, a great conversation. It's especially around this book, this article that we'll be getting to in a little bit. But if I'm asked, how did this catch your attention, Kevin? Kevin (01:03.721) Mm-hmm. Kevin (01:08.243) I think it was just the Apple News feed that I use on my phone. I think it was an article from, let's see, it was in the Atlantic and I often will read the Atlantic, so it just bubbled up. So there's win for technology. Yeah, do you like the Apple News app or it's equivalent? Daniel (01:20.808) Yeah. Yay, technology. The algorithms. You know, I don't use that much. I probably should, but I am always surprised by how well the algorithms know me and know what's... Kevin (01:30.738) Interesting. Kevin (01:38.545) Mm-hmm Well the nice thing with it, and I'm sure Google News is similar is that it it pulls from different sources So you really do get to like read something from the LA Times or various things that I wouldn't you know you You could go to the website in theory, but you're not going to So yeah, I it's nice to read from different things. So yeah, it's kind of browsing a library almost Daniel (01:56.677) Right. Right. Daniel (02:01.105) Yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. Kevin (02:04.724) And we have the subscription, so that means it's whatever they list, you can read for free. Which is nice. Daniel (02:12.519) Most of my news, rightly or wrongly, for the few years now, I've gotten from the BBC website, just because I find I enjoy their perspective on what's going on in the US and around the world as well, of course, but maybe a little bit of a less of vested interest in what's going on in the US, not like the outsiders. Kevin (02:19.095) huh, yeah. Kevin (02:33.309) Mm-hmm. Kevin (02:38.333) Sure. Daniel (02:42.644) perspective, but it does mean I often am flummoxed over stories about British sports that I know nothing about like cricket. There's a lot of reporting on cricket and I don't know much about it, but I'm happy to learn about it. Kevin (02:53.831) Bright. Bright. Kevin (03:03.731) So what's your favorite cricket team that you know nothing about? Chelsea and Wicking I'm sure. Daniel (03:06.632) Yes, the yes, that's right. And the Birmingham Cricketeers. Kevin (03:17.575) Blanton shipper, Crichton, Crichton, East, the Midlands, the Midlands. Daniel (03:20.827) That's right, that's right, that's right. In Midlands, the Midlands, all of our dear British listeners are cringing right now probably. I'm sorry that we're, we, anyway. Kevin (03:31.234) Yes. We care. We do care. We care enough to try to make a joke about British names. Daniel (03:38.123) And mainly we're trying to poke fun at, I think, at our American ignorance of cricket and British things. I have admired that about you from afar. I haven't put it into words, but when I think of cricket, I think of you, Kevin. Because I know that you live and breathe cricket. Yeah. And speaking of crickets. Kevin (03:44.926) Well Daniel is, I know everything, but Daniel is. Kevin (03:52.591) Yeah. Kevin (04:01.915) I love a brief cricket. Yes. I got maybe maybe. Daniel (04:07.816) Do animals play? Yeah, so maybe, so this was a question posed, or implied at least, by a recent book that came out called Kingdom of Play, What Ball Bouncing Octopuses, Belly Flopping Monkeys, and Mud Sliding Elephants Reveal About Life Itself by David Toomey, David Toomey, who's actually an English professor. Kevin (04:36.146) Mm-hmm. Daniel (04:38.002) And this book, I think we should just be put all our cards on the table. Neither of us has read this book, but we read a review of the book written in the Atlantic, as you mentioned, by Sally Tisdale came out in the April, 2024 edition of the Atlantic. And we've also watched or listened to a podcast about Kevin (04:59.015) Mm-hmm. Daniel (05:04.558) interviewing the author about this of this book episode 429 of Unsiloed by Greg LeBlanc Greg LeBlanc also interviewed David Toomey about this book which tries to answer the question Do animals play? Kevin (05:07.206) Right. Kevin (05:21.811) And this is a tricky thing because we don't know what it's like to be these animals. And they do things that seem playful, but they don't play like we do because they don't have organized play such as sports or board games or card games or dice games. So that's kind of the question is what they're doing and evolutionary, right? Does it have evolutionary benefit? Daniel (05:34.879) Right? Kevin (05:50.855) You can argue that young animals play because they're growing their muscles or they're learning about the world. So certainly animals play as children, but there are animals that play as adults. And so the question is, what are they doing? And it's so cool that we don't really know. Daniel (06:05.64) Right, right, Right, right. And can we, and like you said, can we even recognize it as play not being animal? I mean, not being that particular species of animal, right? That what play might mean for one species is something different for another. they, yeah, yeah. Kevin (06:12.028) Yeah. Kevin (06:20.506) And if we were to encounter aliens, same thing would apply. Play to them might be something very different. Or not very different, but different. I mean, it would have to be similar enough that we'd even consider it. Or maybe not. Maybe we just think they were working. What if the aliens were... We thought they were working and they were playing. Then we thought they were playing, they were working. It'd so weird. Daniel (06:26.846) Yeah. Daniel (06:41.374) Like in some alien world, like crunching numbers on spreadsheets all day would be play. And I should say, I know some humans who like to do that too. So maybe that's not so far-fetched. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Kevin (06:49.915) Yeah. Kevin (06:54.598) Wow, okay, there you go, there you go. We meet an alien that's doing surgery and they're like, this is just for fun. Like, huh. You Daniel (07:07.338) It's time to have my molar extracted. Why? Because I love it. Kevin (07:12.032) I'm a neurosurgeon for my hobby and then for work I roll dice all day. Daniel (07:13.851) That's right. That's right. I gotta roll the dice. Kevin (07:20.762) And if I get, if I hit 26s in one day, I get paid. And if I get, and if I don't, I don't get paid. Alien work. Yeah. So we're, we're asking, do animals play? And we have seen certain behaviors. There are orcas that have been ramming ships for a couple of years and people are absolutely perplexed by this. Is this something? Daniel (07:26.687) Hmm. Daniel (07:31.562) Hmm. Daniel (07:47.156) Right, right, right. Kevin (07:50.957) Are they confused and they think it's something they're supposed to eat or an adversary or are they playing games and what would it mean? And the best they've kind of figured out is they're really copying each other, but they seem to... it serves no purpose. So that's why they wonder if they're playing because it's not purposeful. And one basic definition of work for humans and animals is it's without purpose. Daniel (08:06.793) Right. Daniel (08:10.196) Yeah. Right. Daniel (08:18.974) Right, right. Yeah, he... Daniel (08:23.998) David Toomey discusses a definition of play, trying to get at, since it is hard to identify, how can we define play? And both the article author, Sally Tisdale, and the podcast host, Greg LeBlanc, mentioned that Toomey employs the definition. Kevin (08:28.869) Mm-hmm. Daniel (08:47.422) posited by Gordon Brighart. Yeah, which we talked about animal behavior, animal play, which he describes as behavior that is non-functional, voluntary, characterized by repeated but varied movements and occurring only when the animal is healthy, safe, and well-fed. And then in the podcast interview, they elaborate on non-functional as connected to reproduction or survival, meaning like it's not connected. Kevin (08:53.551) Mm-hmm. Kevin (09:15.354) Or you mean functional would be. Functionals connected. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Daniel (09:17.162) Right, right, right. So non-functional is not connected. Right, right. Thank you. To reproduction or survival. Yeah. So I don't know. What struck me was how, yeah, and I was struck by the amount of overlap between that definition of animal play and the definition of play we've often discussed for various sources on this podcast. Kevin (09:24.302) Yeah, some interesting things there. Kevin (09:39.269) The interesting, because I see some differences. So why don't you talk about the similarities? Because I see some differences here. Daniel (09:43.982) Yeah, yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on differences too. Well, similarities and largely the definition of play that we have used on this podcast comes from Bernard Suetz, grasshopper, which says, he says games, but I think it also we said plays the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles. So there's voluntary right there, right? That if you, so that's one area of overlap. If you force a human being to do something, if you force an animal to do something. It's not play, right? Play has to be voluntary. Kevin (10:14.885) Right. Yeah, so a mouse running a maze to get cheese is not really play. Because they kind of, guess they don't have to, but they're gonna get hungry eventually and have to go for the cheese. So they're not choosing it. You're putting them in there and giving them a reward. Yeah. Daniel (10:22.323) Right. Right. Daniel (10:28.274) Right. Right. Daniel (10:32.606) That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And then he also talks about, you know, non-functional, which I guess I kind of saw having similarities to another mark of play that we've talked about in the past, largely coming out of Oliver Berkman's writing, but the idea of this non-instrumentality that it doesn't serve. It's not a means to an end, but it's an end unto itself. And I kind of see that as an overlap. Kevin (11:00.624) So cat playing with ball of string serves no purpose besides just it seems to amuse them. But they can't eat the string. They're not honing their string chasing skills. You could say they're keeping their hunting skills up, but I mean no animal unravels like that. So that we found yet. Maybe the cat secretly know of alien invaders coming that that's how they attack, but. Daniel (11:13.672) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (11:29.098) You Kevin (11:29.21) But yeah, it serves no purpose beyond simply itself, just like playing Monopoly serves no purpose beyond simply playing Monopoly. If you take the pieces from the Monopoly set and you put them in real life, they make no sense. Like they serve no purpose. The money only counts within the game type thing. Daniel (11:41.82) Right. Right. Daniel (11:46.12) Yeah. So those are two areas of potential overlap, at least they're voluntary, both human and animal play behaviors. Yeah. Kevin (11:57.519) And they're repeated. I mean, I had to. I never thought of that, but it is repetitious. Otherwise, it's just chaotic. But typically, you kind of do something over and over. Little kids will do that, too. They want to throw the ball again and again and again. And the dog chases the stick, and the orcas ram the boat. So it's repeated. yeah. Daniel (12:03.762) Yeah. Right. Daniel (12:16.424) Yeah, yeah. You watch somebody play a board game. I mean, what do they do? They roll dice over and over again. They play a card over and over again. I mean, that's very, very repeated behavior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (12:28.569) bright and if you because if you did completely unrelated behavior would just be bizarre or weird like you roll some dice move a piece do this and everything is disconnected and never repeats it would be yeah it would not make sense to us Daniel (12:44.35) Nevermind, have you ever played You Got Got? Kevin (12:48.353) No. Daniel (12:49.648) It is, I first heard about it from a review from the online board game review website, Shut Up and Sit Down, which we're both fans of, but there's, You Got Got is a fascinating game. And what made me think about it is very few things are repeated. is not built around repeated behavior. It's a, you might kind of describe it as a meta game. Kevin (13:03.822) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:12.814) Hmm. Daniel (13:19.112) But at the beginning of the game, you're given... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like you're given like, I forget how many, maybe like five or six random tasks that your goal is to get other people in the quote game to do these tasks without realizing that you are getting them to do this task. And the game can last an indefinite period of time. It could be hours, it could be days. Kevin (13:23.93) wait, I do know this game, yes. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (13:38.497) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:46.255) So the task might be put a hat on or show me your your driver's license and so they kind of know you're playing so it's not completely a surprise but throughout the day they may forget or not understand because they don't know what you're trying to do so they may be suspicious of your actions but you may trick them and that's the game is can you lull them into a Scenario where I really do need to see your driver's license and you fall for it and then I gotcha. Yeah Daniel (13:50.15) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (14:03.027) Right, right. Daniel (14:07.305) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (14:14.07) Right, right, right. So that's kind of not repeated behavior, but I think you're right. Most of the time, play certainly involves. Yeah, yeah. So what are some differences that you saw between human play and animal play in that definition? True. Kevin (14:17.004) Yeah, that might be an exception that proves the rule. So in general, it is repetitious. Kevin (14:27.074) Well, it doesn't mention obstacles. and, you know, so, so the cat, cat playing with a ball of string, guess the obstacle is maybe that it never completely eats it or wins? I don't know, but the cat is more of just doing a repetitive behavior versus humans tend to create real obstacles such as three-legged race. Let's have a race, but we have to tie our legs together to people or Daniel (14:45.621) Yeah, yeah, true. Daniel (14:55.722) I see. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (14:56.842) Let's let's do a relay race and the trick is you have to hand me this baton You know if you drop it then you're disqualified. So that would be us creating obstacles Yeah, so they don't do obstacles and also they have to be well fed and I thought now that's interesting because there are some stories Where people have played games to distract themselves from hunger or fatigue? So sometimes we play games to distract us. There's an old Daniel (15:03.255) Mm-hmm. Daniel (15:09.698) That's a good point, yeah. Daniel (15:22.082) Yeah, like in Herodotus. Kevin (15:26.676) story of, it was a Greek city, is that right? Daniel (15:31.35) Yeah, found in Herodotus and it was in Lydia. Kevin (15:35.915) Lydia, in ancient times, the ancient Greek historian Herodotus tells a story that the people Lydia had a famine and so one day they would eat and one day they would play games and one day they would eat and so the eating distracted them from losing the games. the games distracted them from their hunger. Daniel (15:54.658) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (15:59.029) And so, yeah, sometimes we can be more intentional, I think. And of course, we plan out a game. We plan a game night, whereas animals are much more like children, kind of spontaneously playing just in the moment. Versus we organize games. You think about the PGA tournament, for example, as one big organized golf game. All the people showing up and sponsors and things. Daniel (16:25.924) I love, that's a great observation. Yeah, that the obstacles, the unnecessary obstacles seems to be a distinguishing mark between human play and animal play. And I wonder what that says about humans that we have to introduce obstacles to play. Huh. Kevin (16:28.226) thanks, man. Kevin (16:35.319) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:42.081) Yeah. Kevin (16:46.828) I wonder, yeah, we might meet aliens that don't do that or something like that, or if we ever could really talk to the whales or something. They're like, why do you have to do that? That's my best whale accent. Go ahead. Can you do your whale accent, Daniel? I know you've been practicing. Daniel (16:54.702) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (17:01.39) That was a great whale voice. I liked it. Kevin (17:09.719) You actually did an online course. I think you paid, didn't you? Daniel (17:13.114) that's awful. That's awful. That's awful. Kevin (17:23.308) I have Joan all over again. Daniel (17:24.404) Why? That would be a long podcast if we did it all in whale speak. Whale speak and ent speak. Kevin (17:31.872) would be very long. It could be one those weird YouTube channels like ASMR for seven hours to help you fall asleep. Just us doing an episode in Whale Speak. And suddenly all the whales globally stop swimming because they're listening to us. They've gotten to sleep. Finally! They've wanted to sleep for centuries. I'm so tired. Daniel (17:47.516) They've gone to sleep listening to the others. That's right. I'm so tired. Somebody finally made a sleep podcast for me. All right. Kevin (18:03.116) We don't know that kind of fatigue. We don't keep walking as we sleep, but those poor whales, they keep... I guess they stop swimming. I don't know. Yeah. Daniel (18:10.903) It's gotta be, it's gotta be tiring to be a whale. Well, no, that's a great- Kevin (18:16.406) Yes, so the question is, why do animals play, correct? Daniel (18:19.633) So why do they play? However we define it, that's right. Why do we play? Why do animals play? Because as the article observes, know, many animals engage in behaviors with no obvious benefit, to quote the article actually. And as it points out, and as Tumi points out, sometimes play behavior actually increases the likelihood that you will be killed, right? I mean, like if animals are, if young animals especially are roughhousing it, Kevin (18:42.804) Ooh, yeah. Daniel (18:49.35) out in the savanna, perhaps that makes them more apparent and obvious to predators, you know, mean, versus just hiding in the bush, you know. yeah, so it brings up this question. It would seem as if play among animals, especially, does not have an evolutionary advantage. And Kevin, I don't know about you, but this is for me where I... Kevin (18:57.853) Mm-hmm. It's such a great point. Daniel (19:19.958) I guess to kind of talk about the meta of this conversation and by, yeah. Kevin (19:26.411) Hang on. Kevin (19:35.179) Give me 20 minutes or bring me the sheet. Yeah. This is day three and so I'm his medication nurse. I don't think, so he was asking when his next med is, so I think he's gonna bring me the sheet. But if I need to, I will. But what were you saying? I marked it, I'll delete it. Daniel (19:46.429) Absolutely. Do you need to go? Daniel (20:00.712) Okay. Yeah. How about I'll, no problem. I'll start over from. Daniel (20:08.624) animals it potentially maybe they can get killed is that okay okay all right Kevin (20:12.147) yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (20:17.699) hang on. Daniel (20:18.845) No problem. Kevin (20:28.787) Not yet, Bob. It's every four hours, so that'd be 1.22. Kevin (20:38.923) 40 minutes, yeah. So maybe go for a walk, get some ice. 40 minutes, okay. All right. Daniel (20:49.843) Yeah, so. Daniel (20:54.528) So why do animals play is kind of the big question because as both the article and the book and the podcast point out, there aren't super apparent evolutionary reasons for play a lot of the time. It's a play can actually increase the likelihood of an animal being killed or being prey. For example, if, yeah, yeah, like if some young animals are roughhousing and playing on the savanna. Kevin (21:10.398) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:17.002) So weird. Daniel (21:22.945) they're more of a target for a predator, right? Than if they were just cowering and hiding in the bush or underground. So why play then if there's not an obvious evolutionary advantage? And Kevin, I don't know about you, but this for me was an unexpected part of the conversation that the book review in the Atlantic and the podcast almost seem to be having with each other. And maybe... Kevin (21:49.13) Hmm. Daniel (21:52.479) Maybe saw this differently, so feel free to jump in. I might be misunderstanding it, but it seemed to me like the podcast review of the book was very much coming from the perspective of play has to have an evolutionary advantage, right? For it to exist, it has to have an evolutionary advantage. Maybe it's not obvious, maybe it's not apparent, but if we dig deep enough, can somewhat be able to figure it out. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist. Whereas the article's author in the Atlantic, Tisdale, seemed to be coming more from the perspective of, you know, maybe that is what makes play play, is that it is not inherently functional, even evolutionarily. Kevin (22:45.939) Right. That's the definition. Daniel (22:49.085) Right, right, exactly. And so they get to... And as an example that both the podcast and the book review lift up from Tumi's book is Piglets. The study, I think, happened in Scotland, which just sounds delightful of Piglets. And by the way, it's just fun to talk about Piglets, right? That's a fun word. Piglets would run and then all of sudden Kevin (23:13.086) Mm-hmm. Daniel (23:18.657) They would leap into the air and flip backwards, right? Do a somersault and just kind of land very awkwardly on the ground. And the question was, why do they do this? Right? Why do they do this? And some researchers had this hypothesis that they do it to give themselves training on what to do if they're knocked off their feet, right? It's it's kind of, it's for survival, right? Kevin (23:31.369) Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:47.209) That was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So dumb. Daniel (23:48.228) Well, but as I understand it, right. And maybe I misunderstanding it. The podcast was more, it was more like, okay, you know, at least making space for this idea that that could be maybe a reason. Whereas the author of the article seemed to almost kind of giggle at that idea and say, you know, why is it outside the wrong possibility that they're just having fun, right? That they're not, they're not training for. what happens if they get knocked off their feet. And so it seemed to me like, specifically around that case study of piglets doing leaps in the air, there was this, it kind of laid bare this contrast between why do we play? Does it have to, why do animals play? Why do we play? Does it have to have a reason, an evolutionary reason? Anyway, any thoughts on that from you or, yeah. Kevin (24:39.783) Mm-hmm. Kevin (24:45.464) Absolutely. No, I mean, I totally endorse evolution and that is clearly how nature works. But the idea that explains everything is not going to work for someone who is religious like myself. Like, that's the whole thing, that there's so much of life that is a mystery, whether it's the beauty of the universe, like the world is more beautiful than it needs to be, whether the fact that we have consciousness, which is startling and inexplicable. that we are self-aware. And this is just another factor of how interesting our universe is that play is contrary to evolutionary survival and flourishing. That you think of these, as you said, young animals playing and the parents have to watch them. So not only are they a danger, they put the parents at danger and they have to spend time not hunting to keep the... kids safe while they play, so it clearly indicates to me that, you know, evolution hits a certain wall when it tries to make sense of the depths of reality. Like, it explains some things. Sure, it doesn't explain everything. And I also find it odd. It's almost like a religion itself in the sense that they have endless faith in evolution to explain everything, but claiming that piglets are practicing falling down as an evolutionary tactic is bizarre and definitely sounds like a fundamentalist or something to me, right? Like it's a very much a weird act of faith to hold to that. yeah, I think I never thought of play as an argument for the existence of God, right? And that's kind of what I'm hitting at. And even our friend theology of play, Multman, I don't know that he goes this far. Daniel (26:18.019) You Daniel (26:28.679) UGH! Kevin (26:38.94) He does indicate that playfulness is part of the universe and even of God who made a playful universe, but the fact that it kind of questions some things, yeah. mean, evolution has, huh, an argument for God. Yeah, play is an argument for God, or else why do so many animals do such risky behavior and do things that are not functionally useful? Daniel (26:48.87) play as an argument for God. Or just play as an argument for God. I like it. Yeah. Daniel (26:59.418) Right, right. Kevin (27:03.407) And evolution can't just have it both ways. can't say, well, everything is evolutionary purpose unless something is either we don't understand it or it's a leftover of a prior time. Well, that covers everything. There's no way to question or falsify that. That's an act of faith to sort of have an answer for everything. yeah. Yeah, I have a bunch of thoughts. And I think that's so interesting that the author Daniel (27:26.14) Right, right, right, yeah, yeah. Kevin (27:32.081) the writer is willing to kind of do a bit of an eye roll at some scientists, because sometimes scientists, like any group of people, can go little too far. Daniel (27:40.987) Yeah. Well, and I, you know, I should say the caveat, of course, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not a scientist and, you I'm not the one who did the research. so I, I, I may be misunderstanding the argument, but that was, that was how I understood it from both the article and the, and the podcast. Kevin (27:43.11) despite being right. Yeah. Kevin (27:47.504) Sure. Kevin (27:58.915) And it could be both. could be that animals play to do things that are useful, but also because they are fun. It could be both. So my cat goes out there and scratches her claws on a dead tree stump and looks at us watching her doing it. And it's clear she's taking pleasure in it. It sharpens her nails, but it may also be an act of play. could be all three. So we don't need to be fundamentalist. We can be... Daniel (28:21.179) Right, right. Kevin (28:25.819) have multiple meanings at one time. If fundamentalist is, you know, black and white or easy answers, we don't have to have an easy answer for everything. It could be all three. Daniel (28:34.545) Right, right. We need to eat for survival, but if it were just purely about survival, just give me my protein fiber cube. Yeah, you know, but we, so, but we make it interesting and fun and delightful. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. Kevin (28:41.927) Right. That's it. it's such a great example. Yeah. And we make them into feasts and it's a time of sharing and people talking and we have restaurants and the whole process of eating out is fun. Yeah. Like why, that's not, that's a great example. Eating serves a purpose, but it also is kind of purposeless. Like why would you eat for three hours? Well, sounds fun. Daniel (29:08.541) Right, right. Kevin (29:10.382) If the entertainment is good, yeah. Daniel (29:12.391) Yeah, it makes me wonder, and this really, this gets to what I think is kind of the closing and main point of Sally Tisdale in her review of the book. Daniel (29:28.567) It makes me wonder, well, I guess she brings up the question of the inner life of animals, which I think was fascinating. And I want to return to that in a moment. But while we're still on this point, though, it makes me wonder whether, you know, maybe they're just as, and I also am you know, advocate and proponent of evolution as well. It makes me wonder, you just as evolution is the mechanism by which Daniel (30:10.45) life happens, creation happens, and don't think believing in creation and evolution are incompatible. Kevin (30:12.71) Hmm. Daniel (30:22.013) Maybe play is also a mechanism by which something else happens. And the one doesn't have to explain the other, right? What if there are two independent gifts, right? That maybe, you know, evolution is the nuts and bolts of how creation happens and play is the nuts and bolts of how we find meaning and joy, you know, and God. Kevin (30:47.233) Absolutely. And both can be true. Yeah. Daniel (30:50.537) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (30:53.733) Yeah, Augustine, St. Augustine's Confessions has this lurking notion that it's through writing and thinking and remembering that he almost creates his soul in you all the time. Like your soul is always a work in progress and it's through the act of memory and awareness that you rediscover what you keep kind of losing because of, I guess, just inertia and human behavior. So it almost makes me think we could say that for play as well, that play is kind of a constant act of Daniel (31:05.195) Mmm. Daniel (31:14.399) Mmm. Kevin (31:24.387) recreating our soul, right? And you were kind of hinting at this earlier that... Daniel (31:24.781) Hmm, please. Daniel (31:33.44) I'm writing that down. Kevin (31:33.466) Yeah. Yeah, and it may seem weird from a Christian point of view, but actually Augustine and others are totally in on that. The idea that our soul is somehow imprinted and static and we're born with it, that's not a Christian notion. That's very much a modern kind of whatever, Platonic, I guess Plato would be pre-modern, you know, it's not exactly... Yeah. That the soul is something that's always in process is Buddhist, but it's also Christian. Daniel (31:57.418) No, no, yeah. Daniel (32:02.186) Right, right. I love that. Daniel (32:10.228) It makes me wonder a question that occurred to me as I was reading this that, could we even say, I think you just hinted at it too. Could we even say that play... Yeah, is what gives us soul. Or, yeah, yeah. Play is how soul is created or renewed. Kevin (32:23.726) Absolutely. Kevin (32:31.663) Yeah, revealed. mean, there's different images or words. So it's not as if you don't have a soul, but maybe you. Daniel (32:35.106) Yeah. Kevin (32:39.973) What's the bit about sculpture? You cut away everything that's not the thing you're sculpting and when you do that you're left with the sculpture. Yeah, like it's almost revealing our soul. It's playfulness. Daniel (32:44.332) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (32:49.932) I wonder if some could say maybe, you know, evolution is if we want to kind of marry all of this together, faith and science and play. mean, could say some could say perhaps, you know, maybe evolution is how God creates the body, but play is how God creates the soul, maybe. Kevin (33:00.642) Mm-hmm. Kevin (33:09.925) Interesting, yeah. Right? Wow. Yeah. And not just play. mean, there's music and there is writing and art and thinking, so I don't know that play is exclusive. play is a, I don't know, it's in every culture and every age and every phase of life. Do you have a soul if you don't play? I don't know, I guess. But it's probably a very obscured soul. Daniel (33:11.584) Yeah. Daniel (33:34.841) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (33:39.661) if you're not doing something playful, which might just be going for walks or, you know, playing pranks. Like, it doesn't have to be a formal type of play. Daniel (33:44.035) Right. Daniel (33:50.733) And if that's true, yeah, right, right. At least if it contributes to the development of soul, that brings up some interesting questions for getting back to the subject of this episode, animals when they play, right? Because if I could, may I share this quote from Tisdale at the end of her article? I thought it was really good. Kevin, roll. Kevin (34:02.666) Mm-hmm. Kevin (34:07.725) No you may not. Kevin (34:12.44) Go ahead. I've changed. I have ruled differently. Go ahead, Daniel. Daniel (34:15.843) Okay, thank you. Okay. I was doing my whale lament there. So this is what Tisdale says at the end of her review of the book or close to it. She says, to me understands that if we always reduce play to some form of utility, we might say instrumentalism. yeah. Kevin (34:19.876) Glad I cut you off because it's about 400 years long. Kevin (34:42.158) Yeah, usefulness, yep. Daniel (34:44.942) We are returning animals to the status of automatons. I am robot. And then she goes on to say, if we can conceive of an animal simply having fun, we can no longer see animals as mere objects. We are challenged to change the way we treat them and a solemn responsibility is added to our dominion. Some assaulting may be good training for the unexpected, but I wonder. Kevin (34:49.475) I am a robot. Kevin (35:02.211) Hmm. Daniel (35:14.14) Why is it so hard to believe that exuberance is in itself a good? And I think she kind of seems to bring up or hint at this idea that, you know, mean, if, as we're talking about, and as I think she eludes, mean, if play is somehow part of, somehow part of the construction, the reconstruction, the renewal of this thing we call soul, I mean, then that really changes how we... view animals at play, right? Because it means we have to, it demands giving animals a certain kind of dignity and awe and wonder that we may so often just reserve for humans. You know what I mean? Because maybe some of that little soul resides in them too, whether they can be conscious of it in a human way or not. Kevin (35:58.177) Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Kevin (36:07.895) Yeah, we would respect animals because they have something that we share, which is an interest and exuberance in play. And that makes them alive. So what's the difference between a stone or a hammer and an animal? mean, an animal can serve a purpose. You could use it as a pack animal or a carrier pigeon. But the difference is that the animal can find joy in being alive, can play, and the hammer doesn't. Daniel (36:16.507) Yeah. Kevin (36:38.765) So that's why the animal is alive, which means we may owe them something different, which is, you know, we don't just maltreat them or put them in factories or, you know, get rid of them when they're no longer useful. So yeah, what Tumi is almost suggesting is a very, sounds like the horrors of the Victorian industrial revolution where you, animals are supposed to be working constantly and if you're not working, you get shot type thing. Daniel (37:06.301) Right, right, right. Kevin (37:06.774) putting kids to work in factories, and kids like animals also have a right to play, and so do adults. So yeah, it means we share something, and this is where Moltmann also says that God is playful, because look at the universe and what God made and how God goes about it as a... the universe serves no purpose beyond itself, so the whole thing is an act of play, which is really amazing. Daniel (37:12.359) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (37:28.381) Right. It is, it is, it is. There's a certain. Daniel (37:36.723) liberation and awesome in the best sense of the word, goodness in the thought that none of this is necessary, right? mean, just how, yeah. And yet it is. I mean, and yet here everything is, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (37:38.646) Mm-hmm. Kevin (37:54.818) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Everything is and it works. except for the mosquitoes. But yeah, it works and it's more playful and beautiful than it needed to be and why is that? can we respect other forms of play? Whether it's a toddler doing something really boring, like throwing a ball for an hour, you know, and that's hard as a parent, it's so boring. Can we respect animals and their play? Can we respect aliens if we find them in their form of play, even though it's not adult? Daniel (38:06.632) The mosquitoes, yeah. Kevin (38:33.428) rational human play. So yeah, can we recognize difference but also see it as kindred play? Yeah. Daniel (38:35.55) Right, right, right. Kevin (38:44.268) Good stuff. Daniel (38:44.516) And it gets me thinking even maybe respecting and other forms of play even among our species, right? I got me thinking throughout this episode as well, know, sometimes misunderstandings can happen where what is play for one person is not perceived as play for another person, right? And that can be, think about, know, some families have a long tradition of Kevin (38:53.046) Right. Kevin (39:06.743) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:12.919) teasing and teasing is how you show love and that family other families teasing is not welcome at all right it's not play is hurtful and so how how do those things interact yeah so even within human beings Kevin (39:14.88) Right, yeah. Kevin (39:21.282) Bright, bright. Daniel (39:30.996) Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well. Kevin (39:31.176) Absolutely. Daniel (39:37.394) I'm so glad that you Kevin (39:37.41) Remember that time I kidnapped you and I was going to play a game called the most dangerous game and I reset you loose and to hunt you on that island and you were really scared and the whole time I was like it's just a game Daniel because it's like that story the most dangerous game. Yeah I thought the trauma was okay. Daniel (39:46.152) I was thinking about that. didn't want to bring it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, it was in the back of my head. I didn't know if you wanted to talk about it or not, but yeah. And I was, and I was like the whole time, Kevin, this isn't play. And you were like, it is Daniel. It is play. And, Kevin (40:04.595) It is. Now run. Kevin (40:10.635) than I got on my golf cart and drove after you. You're like, this isn't fair. Daniel (40:12.374) You Kevin (40:17.831) Then I said, well, was it fair when you beat me in Arc Nova that time? Daniel (40:21.428) Ha ha ha ha ha But then a passing whale came by and I jumped on and it took me to say, my whale sounds like a dog. Yeah. Okay. Kevin (40:29.941) And it took the bullet for you, yes. Kevin (40:35.201) Whale dog. That'd be a good cartoon. Whale dog, whale dog. Daniel (40:36.48) Wheel dog. Daniel (40:40.17) Na na na na na na na. No, now it's Batman. Now it's a Bat-whale dog. Bat-whale dog. Kevin (40:45.301) Bat-whale dog, Two metric tons of dog food a day. Daniel (40:52.544) Bye! Kevin (40:56.801) It's the worst of both worlds. Daniel (40:58.233) What a whale sound like panting. Kevin (41:03.637) Why is the whale slobbering? He's underwater. Daniel (41:06.232) Waging its tail. Kevin (41:11.777) you Daniel (41:11.948) boat capsizes. Kevin (41:14.369) Big balls of fur just floating through the ocean. Fur balls. Kevin (41:27.71) It's got a little tail that does the but then the front it's got these little arms that dog paddles. Well dog. Daniel (41:30.978) That's right, that's right. I don't know. Kevin (41:39.936) That's so stupid. I love it. Daniel (41:40.568) That would be great. I love it. I love it. I'd watch it. Well, I'm glad that you suggested this article and this book. And yeah, thank you. Kevin (41:48.956) Thank you for reading it so carefully. Thank you. And yeah, so We hope folks will like and subscribe actually We're running a new contest if we can get up to 10 million subscribers on YouTube Daniel is gonna eat his own car So we want to invite folks to participate in that game 10 million subscribers Daniel eat his car Daniel (42:08.14) Wait, wait, that's not play to me, Kevin, that's not play. No. Kevin (42:12.338) No, this is part of your job as a ambassador for PlaySafe the World, so it's okay. Daniel (42:19.419) 10 million subscribers, we'll revisit it. How about if we... Okay, we'll revisit if that... Yeah. But yeah, know that we... Yeah, but seriously, please, if you enjoy this, please like and subscribe. We appreciate it. If you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple podcasts, if you could leave us a review too, we'd appreciate that. That helps other people to find us, the algorithms that we were mentioning earlier, the all-knowing algorithm. Kevin (42:20.928) 10 million subscribers, he'll eat his car. We'll revisit if it happens. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Kevin (42:42.708) That helps. Daniel (42:48.234) that helps to recommend our podcast to other people. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (42:50.429) Yeah, there are people out there that want to hear us. They just haven't heard us yet. And they need to find us. And you can help. Daniel (42:56.408) Yeah. And, we hope to see you back here next time. Next time, I'm excited about this next episode. yeah, we have a special guest. name is Julian Reed, Julian Reed. He, has a ministry called notes of rest, and it is unique. It is unlike anything else, we've ever seen. And it's wonderful. he. Kevin (43:04.201) gonna be great. Daniel (43:26.09) uses music, music especially out of the African-American spiritual tradition, but music in a larger umbrella sense as well, uses music to help us explore issues of rest and renewal and healing and sleep, which are all very important. Kevin (43:33.023) Mm-hmm. Kevin (43:43.839) Hmm. Daniel (43:56.029) kind of playful related to topics too. and so he's, yeah, so he's going to be joining us and can't wait to get to hear his perspective on music. Yeah. Yep. Yep. In the meantime, Kevin (43:58.065) Absolutely. Kevin (44:03.999) Julian Reed, R-E-I-D. Kevin (44:11.945) Keep on playing and play save the world.org. Reach out to us. Daniel (44:14.81) Yep. Yep. We'd love to and play saves the world at gmail.com if you want to drop us an email. Kevin (44:19.635) Yes, carrier pigeon coordinates five, five, three, four, beta, three, four, southwest, four, two, three, nine. And Daniel will go ahead and repeat that. Go ahead and repeat that, Daniel. Daniel (44:29.084) I will repeat it, but in whale. Kevin (44:35.279) You Daniel (44:37.722) BOOM! Kevin (44:39.945) He's so accurate, it's unbelievable. Whale numbers are much faster, it's weird that their language is longer but their math is faster. They're really good with math. They don't use Arabic numerals, they use Whalic numerals. Daniel (44:46.757) Yeah, that's true. Daniel (44:51.514) That's exactly right. It's much more efficient. It's bass, bass 350. Kevin (44:57.567) Yeah, no offense to Arabic numerals, they're great, but... And you know what's also great? The metric or British imperial system, it's the same. You don't have to convert anything. If it's 61 degrees, it's 61 in both. Yeah, it's really great. In whale and metric and in UK imperial, which is USA. Daniel (45:03.9) Eheh Daniel (45:09.264) It is, it's... No, it's... I mean... in whale and metric. Daniel (45:22.823) we just need to get on board. We just need to get on board. If even the whales are metric now, I think the US, come on, we just need to get on board. Kevin (45:24.658) Right? Kevin (45:28.201) Right. We can do it. Well, we have two liters, so we're getting there. liters of soda. Okay, goodbye friends. We'll catch you later. Daniel (45:38.576) bye bye.