Daniel (00:02.286) Play is the mother of invention. On this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. Daniel (00:33.144) Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of Play Saves the World. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:41.25) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:43.59) And we are very thankful that you are joining us on this foray today into the role of play for invention and shaping our world today. We're actually doing a book discussion. It is a discussion of this book. Viewers of the podcast on YouTube can see that I'm holding up a copy of the book Wonderland by Steven Johnson. Wonderland. Kevin (01:12.294) Currently, Daniel is holding up a book, and the book has letters on it, saying, Wonderland, Stephen Johnson. It's a great book with a red background. Daniel (01:19.31) That's exactly I appreciate. I appreciate you're letting our podcast. Yes. Thank you. And with the subtitle, how play made the modern world, how play made the modern world. It is there's a back. Kevin (01:26.576) Yes. It's a hardbound copy because Daniel is bougie like that. Daniel (01:32.686) It takes up more space on my bookshelf so that I can flex on my books then I don't know. don't know why I have. Kevin (01:41.274) That's right. I don't like paper bound books. They're just annoying. Daniel (01:45.292) I kind of, I kind of, mean, I, I mean, I, I understand the need for them too, but there's something very satisfying about a hardcover book. Yeah. Yeah. But before we get into this, Kevin, I said this before we got on air, but it's just, it's great to see you. How, how, how are you? Kevin (01:47.13) You know? Kevin (02:01.824) aww daniel i'm good i'm good the pollen is is is here and it is just yeah it's crazy Daniel (02:05.112) Good. Daniel (02:12.608) allergies or seasonal allergies are pretty bad in North Carolina aren't Kevin (02:17.348) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everywhere I've lived, like to claim it had the worst allergies. So Houston, Texas, Eastern North Carolina, Western North Carolina. Daniel (02:23.191) Notice that. Yes. They also say in Missouri that this is the worst place for allergies as well. Yeah. The one place they don't say that is Antarctica. Yeah. I don't know if that's true or not. Kevin (02:29.434) Yes, yes, think it's a thing. It's a thing. Yep. Kevin (02:40.144) That's Santa Claus, actually Santa Claus became Santa Claus because of his allergies. He's just trying to get away and place was available. Yeah. Daniel (02:46.93) He was getting, he was trying to get away from the allergies. That's right, that's right. I forgot that. Yeah. He went to New Mexico first, right? Where a lot of people go to get away from allergies, but he was so sensitive, right? He was like, not even New Mexico. Kevin (02:56.902) And the beard was sweating. mean, you don't his beard it reeks when it's sweaty. Yeah, it's really bad Daniel (03:02.99) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So up north, I get to the Arctic Circle, past North Dakota and the Canadian provinces and the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and got up there into around the Arctic, the North Pole. And it was very cold, but no allergies. Kevin (03:08.496) past North Dakota, back to the art. Right. Kevin (03:27.876) And his beard didn't stink, so he stayed. It's a true story. Daniel (03:29.954) Yeah, yeah. And then he was like, I need something to do. And that's how Christmas was born. I think that's right. Okay, all right. Actually, they may well have allergies in the Arctic, in Antarctic. I don't know, I was just assuming. Kevin (03:36.57) Right? I love telling that story. Kevin (03:45.765) Hmm. Daniel (03:49.654) Anyway, I don't know. Kevin (03:51.568) There can't be many things that bloom there. I mean, just, yeah. Or at least not for long. Daniel (03:53.932) No, no, yeah, no. She could be allergic to ice. Kevin (04:01.19) But not water? Only water in its frizz form. When they ask, would you like ice in your water? It brings a whole other level of meaning to that question in the restaurant. Daniel (04:02.456) but not water. Daniel (04:09.966) That's right, that's right. Daniel (04:14.094) That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, if this is your first time listening to our podcast, first of all, thank you so much for listening. If this is your 70th time listening to our podcast, thank you so much. We appreciate you as well. But if it is your first time, you may not realize that that that that was discussion of Santa Claus and the Arctic and the Antarctic. Kevin (04:30.938) That's right. Daniel (04:43.052) and allergies was our attempt at humor. It was, was, was, we were, well, we did the final rehearsal last night. We've been working on it for months. Do remember? You remember it was, was two Christmases ago. Remember? And you said, Hey Daniel, we should do a bit about allergies at Santa Claus. Remember that? And we were working on it ever since. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (04:46.692) Right. It scripted. We scripted that out last night. Kevin (04:57.614) I do. I do. I do. I do. And I said, wouldn't it be great if a computer could help write this and you created ChatGPT right after that? You did, you created AI. Yeah, but it was stolen from you. Daniel (05:11.34) There was chat, GBT was born that way. Well, so we have a discussion today about this really fascinating book called Wonderland, How Play Made the Modern World by Steven Johnson. I think, Kevin, I introduced this book to you, right? Is that? Yeah, OK. Yeah. And I was not familiar with the book except Kevin (05:37.008) Yes, you did. Daniel (05:40.878) I don't know, half a year, a year ago or so, I just went to our wonderful local public library. Public libraries are amazing. And I just wanted to see what books they had on the subject of play, maybe get some ideas for our podcast. Surprisingly, this is a sidebar, there's not really much of a... Kevin (05:55.974) Mmm. Daniel (06:04.876) category for play right like a like a like there's not in the Dewey Decimal system or maybe the library of time system too I'm not sure there's not like a play I should say maybe not surprisingly but there's just not as play category I had to look like in things like hobbies and pastimes and things like that but anyway came across this book Wonderland how play made the one and Kevin (06:07.781) Hmm. Kevin (06:27.814) John Dewey is overrated, clearly. Daniel (06:31.83) Yeah, yeah, though total, total props to his family. If any of his family are listening right now, yeah, we would gladly be sponsored by you. Yeah, but yeah, one system can't contain everything, right? Just like one podcast can't contain Kevin Taylor. Yeah, one system can't contain everything. That's right. Kevin (06:40.464) Yes, but. Right, right. Kevin (06:51.024) Yeah, I mean, he just, yeah. That's right, that's right. Daniel (06:57.684) So this book is called Wonderland, How Play Made the Waterworld by Steven Johnson. This is not his first book. And apparently he has kind of developed a reputation for himself of doing deep dives into the interconnection of ideas. And he just seems like a genius at this, just this, an amazing gift for Kevin (07:16.518) Mmm. Daniel (07:26.754) following the flow of ideas through history and how one idea shapes another idea that's seemingly on the surface Unconnected and then another idea and another idea and it's a very impressive book to read apparently I get the impression it's other books are like this as well. He You're left with the impression that he has to have a just a vast and wide personal knowledge base of Kevin (07:35.845) Hmm. Daniel (07:56.682) of global information because he just can make these connections that are kind of staggering to witness. Kevin (08:04.91) Or just got a sharp nose for these sort of connections. He can start reading and see how they might be connected and then pull the strands and show that they are. Yeah. No, it's very cool. It's very interesting how he has this thing that shows that really play and pursuits of seems like leisure actually lead to amazing discoveries. Daniel (08:11.99) Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (08:30.338) That's right. Kevin (08:30.796) and unforeseen discoveries and that was really neat. I'm so glad you recommended this book and got me to dig into it because yeah, it's quite fascinating. And it dovetails really well with this podcast, which is the idea that play is essential to human flourishing and look at what play has done and... Daniel (08:39.018) Daniel (08:43.17) Well, thank you. Kevin (08:55.472) While we're often told that necessity is the mother of invention, and that's true, like sometimes when you need something, you figure out a way to make something work or you hustle or you get creative. Johnson's argument here is that sometimes when you're just messing around and playing, you discover amazing things and they kind of come about by accident. And he gives us several examples of how that is true in Western history. Daniel (09:15.618) Yeah, yeah. Yes. Daniel (09:25.176) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, for example, like in the fields of fashion and shopping, music, spices, food. Yeah. Kevin (09:25.178) Yeah. Kevin (09:38.576) Now hang on Daniel, you're telling me fashion has some purpose besides just looking good? That it had some impact? Consequence? Daniel (09:45.422) He argues that while fashion may be a playful endeavor, it is a playful endeavor that helped to shape the modern world in significant ways. Kevin (10:02.0) You mean like new kinds of stitching or what do mean? Daniel (10:05.89) Yeah, well, part of the argument that he makes specifically related to fashion is that fashion helped to give rise to what we might call our modern shopping culture, right? That the idea as fashion became more more popular, especially in the United Kingdom, the idea of fashion, and this is especially around like gingham fabric, that concurrent with that, developed this idea concurrently with that, developed this idea of places where you could go dedicated just to buy these things that have become that were part of fashion. You could go to stores, you could look at these newest articles of clothing, things made with this fashion, with this fabric. And that that really was the first dipping of the toe Kevin (10:49.422) Mm-hmm Daniel (11:05.152) of society into the water of a shopping culture, right? And then kind of a direct line from that to the consumer culture in so many ways that we live in today and shopping malls and on and on and on. But that was kind of, but it was around fashion that the idea first developed that, you know what, I can go shopping for things, for entertainment, just for a pastime, for fun. Kevin (11:32.644) Mm-hmm. Well, that seems pretty clear, yeah. Daniel (11:34.616) So yeah, yeah, yeah. He also talks about TVs and movies and games and even pubs and coffee houses. So yeah, they're. Kevin (11:38.424) except Kevin (11:44.369) Well, and he discusses that the interest in having fun clothes, the idea that fashion is kind of playful because it's not necessary. We don't have to have fashion, but it makes life more pleasurable and fun. So it's a leisurely pursuit of fashion, led to the jacquard loom or the jacquard machine, which was a way to create more intricate Daniel (12:08.696) Yeah. Kevin (12:12.486) types of fabrics and colors and patterns, and it used a punch card system. And that led eventually to the ideas of computers and punch card computers. So I guess the first use of a punch card was maybe the Jack Card Loom in I think 1803 or something. Daniel (12:14.2) Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. Daniel (12:32.43) I think maybe so, but I think he even, he may also then trace that punch card back even further than that, perhaps to some of these little automatons that were being made in the 1700s. These kind of these little mechanical robot people that were, that apparently, who knew this? I didn't know this, were popular in the 1700s. Kevin (12:47.568) Mm-hmm. Daniel (13:01.486) I think about what it struck me was kind of like, you know, I don't even know if they're around anymore, but Kevin, when you and I were kids, back in the 70s, the 1870s, there was the there were those mechanical chimpanzees. Do you remember that? And it was battery operated by these mechanical chimpanzees, and they would hit the symbols together and then they'd show their teeth and they go. So I don't think. Kevin (13:13.094) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:18.032) Hmm. Kevin (13:25.242) Yes. Kevin (13:28.932) Yeah, there's a new Stephen King movie based on that. Daniel (13:31.79) Oh, that's right, that's right. I didn't mean to make our podcast suddenly scary, but it kind of me like that. In the 1700s, this was a popular thing. Obviously, they weren't battery operated, but that they were monkey operated. Kevin (13:46.662) their monkey operated to make the monkey work it was for just seemed a little redundant Daniel (13:51.17) That's right, ironic, coincidentally, or was it ironic? I don't know what it was. Inside the larger mechanical monkey, there was an actual monkey running the mechanical monkey. It was, yeah, that's right, that's right. Kevin (14:03.078) And you might say why not just have the real monkey, but the truth is like it's just more interesting Daniel (14:10.626) That's right, exactly right. mean, you know, same true today, right? Would you rather have a friend or a robot friend? Well, of course. Who wouldn't want a robot friend? Kevin (14:17.232) Exactly, exactly. Or a friend inside a robot horse, yes. Yes. Daniel (14:22.284) No, I'm just joking. Yeah, just joking. Kevin, I always prefer you to a robot, Kevin. So, Kevin (14:29.707) thank you. Yeah, so these punch cards were used in these, you're saying back then. Daniel (14:37.358) Yeah, in the kind of these little mechanical automatons that were popular in 1700s. And then he traces the idea back even further that some of the schematics, not specifically for the automatons that were made in the 1700s, but for things like that, was found among the speculative writing of the Banu Musa brothers, who were Islamic engineers and scholars back in the ninth and tenth centuries. And so just, it's this amazing, this amazing winding of one idea leading to another or influencing another or prefiguring another. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (15:18.458) Yeah, and player piano those sorts of things all of these were really just for entertainment whether it was the jack card loom or the player piano or the little automatons were mostly playful silly pursuits and interests and they gave us eventually the internet in our pockets with these black mirrors that we own so yeah, there's the example of how he would trace how these things have played out in terms of Daniel (15:24.398) That's right. Daniel (15:40.238) That's right. Kevin (15:48.241) their influence. He gets into music and machines, he gets into games, helping to like chess and backgammon led to logic and strategy and AI even, and that public spaces and coffee houses led to politics and philosophy and shared thinking. So yeah, he's got a really strong argument for the fact that play is a vital part of human creation, not just necessity. Daniel (16:01.486) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:16.634) but actually just seeing what happens. Daniel (16:16.974) through. I think one of the parts of discussion that I found especially fascinating was also his discussion of, yeah, the food and spices. you know, of course, I guess we touch upon this in a lot of our history classes, at least here in the United States, you know, the spice trade and how like, but really just how the West's appetite for spice. specifically Pepper, just drove commerce and business and led to things like corporations and exploring the world with all of its implications that are not always good and sometimes very negative effects of that. But it was all over these things that are seemingly so unimportant, things we put in our food to make them taste different, you know, to make them taste a very playful thing. Yeah. Kevin (17:22.916) Yeah, spices, teas, that was part of exploration and global economic development and growth and modern trade systems and all that comes out of just the fact that people are tired of eating and drinking things that are local and they want to try something else. And yeah. Daniel (17:42.22) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that interesting? Just the human drive to... for the novel, right? For the new, yeah, yeah. Kevin (17:52.473) It's crazy. Versus my cat and my fish in the fish tank that eat the same thing all the time and don't care. But we, you know, if you go on a cruise ship, they've got to have a different theme in the restaurant every night. We really need novelty. Daniel (17:59.852) Yeah, yes. Daniel (18:06.958) Yeah, you're right. You're right. Our dogs, not only do they not care that they're eating the same thing they've eaten every day of their life for 13 years, they get excited about it, right? They're just, they're like, that old far side cartoon, boy, dog food again. That's, yeah, yeah. Kevin (18:22.503) boy, the thing that I love. Kevin (18:28.208) Exactly. Versus if you gave a human filet mignon every day, they get tired of it. In fact, there's something in American history where they basically, up in New England area, they said, don't pay us anymore with lobster. Because at the time, lobster was so ubiquitous, and now it's a delicacy because it's rare to get. But if you ate it every day, you'd be sick of it. It's just ocean insects that crawl around, right? Daniel (18:42.626) Yes, yes. Daniel (18:49.88) Yes, yes, that's right, that's right. Yeah, I came across a journal, I doing some research, a journal entry kept by the governor of, oh, it wouldn't be Massachusetts, but a governor of a certain area there as the European colonists were first coming to what they now call New England. And yeah, and he was being visited by a dignitary from the United Kingdom. And he writes in his journal how embarrassed he was that all they had to serve him was lobster. That was like, wish you could give him something better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, but no, that's so true. That's so true. And he made the point, Steven Johnson in this book also that, you know, that at some, at some point, you know, pepper was almost like, it was almost like worth its weight in gold, if not more, you know, and, and today we give away, we give away free pepper packets. mean, no one. Kevin (19:29.254) So funny. Kevin (19:42.788) Mm-hmm. Kevin (19:47.472) Yeah. Daniel (19:48.502) No one thinks a second about Pepper, but how influential that was. What's that? Kevin (19:52.807) In a world without pepper, the pepper mill is king type thing. Pepper just depends on what's available. Pepper, sugar, salt, all these things are easily available. Refrigeration, least in some parts of the world. Modern miracles delivered to us. Daniel (20:12.238) Yeah, does that go back to the idea also that, yeah, I mean, I guess salt at one point was that way too. Isn't the word salary comes from salt? you know, it was basically, was so valuable. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (20:18.662) think so. Kevin (20:22.95) I didn't, I haven't heard that. Yeah. And I think at one time they had to lock up the sugar in the kitchens in the British manors because it was so valuable. They didn't want the chefs stealing it. Had to keep an eye on that. Very expensive stuff for a spice. But yeah, this idea that play is a way, exploration is part of a way that we grow as a people. That's so cool because we're so always taught, you you've got to have a Daniel (20:33.016) Really? Daniel (20:38.606) That's what. Kevin (20:51.588) be the underdog and be the David Copperfield and Scrabble and be a self-made person. And hey, I've arrived, especially here in America, I arrived on these shores with $2 and I started out as a dishwasher and I just worked really hard. And then I became a, now I own five restaurants. That kind of story is very inspiring and exciting, but it's not the only story out there. There's also people that just kind of messed around and found something neat. Daniel (21:02.798) Hmm Kevin (21:18.022) In I don't think he mentions Velcro, but that's where Velcro came from. It's just scientists exploring how some things stick to other things in nature. And look at how huge that was. Yeah. It's just a random study of how do these little things in the woods stick to you so well? The little, yeah, and that's just based on nature. I'm sorry? Daniel (21:27.414) Is that right? Really? Interesting. Interesting. Daniel (21:37.218) Huh, that's fascinating. Was it designed for a purpose? Was it designed for some specific purpose at first? Did the military? Okay, interesting. Kevin (21:46.329) No, they're just researching how it worked and eventually somebody realized, we could put this on stuff. No, they were simply exploring, like, how does nature, how is nature able to stick to something so powerfully? And they realized the little hook and system that was going in with Velcro. Daniel (21:57.294) Mmm. Daniel (22:02.978) My seminary roommate Doug, when he wanted to get really deep, he'd say, what's your position on Velcro? And then we would have a conversation about Velcro. Kevin (22:10.47) Did you ever, were you ever anti-Velcro? Daniel (22:15.79) It's waxed and waned over the years. It's a sticky topic. Kevin (22:19.738) Right, right, right, right, right. But you can't seem to get away from it. It clings to you. Daniel (22:26.454) No, no, it's got to, yeah, that's right. So, so. Kevin (22:32.24) hooks right in. Daniel (22:38.016) Were there any other general impressions of, well, actually, let me before I forget, when you were talking, you're reminding me of something, this idea of exploration. Daniel (22:50.73) is not something that we really have explored very much on this podcast, but I feel like maybe there is an intrinsic connection between the themes of play and exploration. Now, exploration, of course, has a shadow side, of course. The age of exploration in the West here on planet Earth often led Europeans to lands where there were already people living. Kevin (22:54.234) Hmm Kevin (23:01.648) Yes, yes, think so. Daniel (23:20.63) And often, in fact, usually, maybe in all cases, the indigenous populations were not treated well and did not come out of that. Yeah. Kevin (23:21.051) Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:32.423) They're exterminated. Yeah. No, there's exploration. There's mercantilism with trade. There's conquest and there is human enslavement. So it's a dirty time in this time period. And it's part of the modern period. And we forget that, that many atrocities in human history and American history are born not of the medieval or ancient world, but of the modern world. yes, there that it's Daniel (23:37.826) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (23:47.79) It is, it is. Daniel (23:57.262) Yeah, yeah. But exploration in general, yeah. That's a general topic. Kevin (24:01.53) Yeah, and games have, yeah, it's worthy of thinking about, and games have tried to get away from some of those ideas. Some of the earlier board games were about conquest. And there's a whole genre of games, 4X games, explore, exploit, exterminate, and there's always another X that everyone forgets. No, I did exterminate. Explore, exploit. Daniel (24:19.736) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:24.0) Exterminate. No. Did you say exterminate? Explore, exploit, expand. Kevin (24:30.914) Expand exterminate and so you're you're moving out your you're wrecking stuff and so games a lot of games had that early on and now they try to watch out for that or at least give a Push back to some of those notions of just taking what you want when you want But but yeah, you know, it's funny too. The games themselves don't necessarily encourage exploration because they tend to be pretty Defined like here's how here's what you have to do and here's how you do it Daniel (24:32.982) Exoskeleton, yeah. Daniel (24:45.964) Right. Daniel (25:00.6) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (25:00.9) they can like board games right so if you play or card games if you play Rook or Spades or something you're not really exploring Daniel (25:08.758) Right. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I I wonder if explore exploration on a more abstract level, like just like, trying to discover novelty, you know, just trying to discover something new, not even, it may be in the physical world, but it might be like a new idea or, you know, or a new, a chord progression in a song. Yeah, right. Kevin (25:24.73) Yes. Kevin (25:33.255) Or a child exploring the woods. I mean, yeah, it is playful. It is not necessary. It doesn't, right? It's not needed. It could be if like you're on a desert island and you're trying to map it, but that wouldn't be playful, would it? That would be work. But if you're simply enjoying strolling through the woods or seeing where a path leads, that would be play. But interestingly, it's not exactly a game because it doesn't have an end point. Daniel (25:50.68) That's right, that's right. Daniel (25:56.59) Yeah. Kevin (26:02.832) There are some board games that encourage you to try different paths to victory or different strategies, but that's about it. It's too contained for exploration, think, in some ways. I'm sure there's exceptions. Daniel (26:14.542) I do like, yeah, yeah. Well, that might be a good, it reminds me of, I don't know if you've heard the new game that's supposed to be coming out from Stonemaier games sometime this year, I think this summer, the Vantage, have you heard of Vantage? It's an exploration game that supposedly was inspired by Zelda Breath of the Wild, where like this kind of open world exploration. And it's all about, as I understand it, I had some friends who actually play tested it with Jamie Stegmaier. Kevin (26:28.304) No. Daniel (26:43.982) where you are exploring this planet, but you can only see from your vantage, from your perspective. And so everyone has these cards that they turn up in front of them. then, but then they alert, it leads to another card and another card, you know, in a case of like hundreds and hundreds of cards, but it's a way of exploring this planet together. Anyway. Kevin (26:44.134) Alright. Who? I was kidding. Very famous board game designer. Kevin (27:08.49) Yeah, know, that does, yeah, we're kind of in a side topic here. But I have to throw in though to close the circle, you're reminding me there are types of games that are more exploration and that would be like Sleeping Gods. They're almost like choose your own adventure type games that really reward and you're supposed to get out and make connections and figure out what the game is about. There's one... Daniel (27:12.332) Here we are. Sorry. Daniel (27:24.846) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (27:36.336) from the game designer, Hollandspiel, Hollandspiel, City of the Moons, and it's supposed to be Amabel Holland, yes. And the game explores, it's a... Daniel (27:41.122) Yeah. Annabelle Holland. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (27:52.072) It's supposed to be a game from an alien race and it doesn't tell you the rules and you have to figure out how to play it with it. It's supposed to be really called City of the Six Moons or something like that. So you kind of decide how to play it yourself. Daniel (27:57.73) What's that called? Daniel (28:01.71) that sounds nice. I'm writing that down. Thank you. Kevin (28:05.956) And it's been a big hit. I have not played it, but it looks really interesting. So there are some nice exceptions or types of games where you are supposed to really kind of explore. So we should add that, but that's really a small piece of the larger gaming puzzle, which is usually either scoring points or destroying your enemies or that kind of thing. Daniel (28:16.482) Yeah, I like that. Daniel (28:26.316) Right, right. Maybe we could explore. Sorry, that wasn't meant on purpose. Play an exploration in a future episode because those topics do seem connected. Thanks. Thanks. So yes, getting back to this book. So that's kind of an overview of the book. He explores, I need to stop using a different word. He looks into how these, that's right, these different fields that seemed playful and Kevin (28:29.766) maybe we explain. Kevin (28:36.358) Yeah, thank you. Kevin (28:47.33) Hmm exploits Daniel (28:55.576) frivolous in the world's eyes at the time actually led to a series of events that shape the world as we know it today, especially around technology. He focuses a lot on what shapes technology, but not entirely. Like you said, in things like public houses, pubs, meeting spaces, coffee houses, such, that did contribute to not so much a technology, but a bringing together of Kevin (28:57.783) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:25.442) diverse populations and how that in some ways kind of prefigured modern society. Kevin (29:35.835) Yeah, and it leads to thinking. mean, that's how the Enlightenment happens, people talking. Most ideas are not in a vacuum, but through people discussing and hashing things out. The Reformation in England, they say, was people having read Martin Luther and sitting in pubs and discussing it till Henry VIII couldn't get a divorce, and they saw that as an opportunity to launch the reforms they've been planning for years of how to make the church better. Daniel (29:38.008) Yeah. Daniel (30:01.238) Interesting, interesting. Kevin (30:02.938) based along Martin Luther's ideas. So was people hanging out together talking. You can visit the pub in Cambridge, England, where Watson, Crickson Watson first developed the idea of the double helix to the DNA structure of human life, and I guess other life. I'm not really a scientist. But there's a pub where they discuss those ideas. So these are places, know, pubs and places like that, public spaces. Daniel (30:21.71) Hmm. Hmm. Kevin (30:32.218) provide a place for people to think of great ideas because they're talking to other smart people. Daniel (30:39.052) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then add in a little extra oomph that comes from the caffeine in the coffee and you're you you it's even more conducive for. Kevin (30:47.076) Yeah. Our little alcoholic... Daniel (30:52.342) lowering of inhibitions. Yeah, Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Kevin (30:53.646) Illor of Anambitions, yeah, would be willing to ask somebody. Hey, Karl Marx, I got a question for you. I just made that up. Come on over here. I can't believe I asked Karl Marx a question. Daniel (31:00.632) Come on over here. That's right. That's right. So what are some key takeaways that we can... Daniel (31:19.16) that we can glean from this book. If you're okay with that, Kevin, maybe we can transition over that. And I might start off with just saying, I guess to name what we've already been talking about, and perhaps the most obvious point in the book, which is just that ideas, fields of study, areas of interest are all so much more connected than we often think, right? That I think it's the... Kevin (31:21.499) Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think let's do it. Kevin (31:44.656) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (31:48.438) It's the modern mindset and talk probably taught this to see everything very as discrete units, right? Maybe in some ways we have to do that, but you're a specialist in this area and then there are specialists in that area and there are specialists in that area. And we're all in our islands and we're all in our silos and that's what we do. You stick to your specialty. But. This book and I think others like it really kind of reveal that mindset in a way kind of as illusory, right? mean, it's kind of an illusion that we're all ideas are disconnected, people are disconnected, the development of thoughts are disconnected. The example we talked about earlier is, I just found that remarkable from this book, you know, these medieval Islamic engineers and I think what was maybe today Iran, is back to, okay Iran, I'm sorry, my bad. You know, these kind of fanciful schematics for moving toys in some ways prefigure this rise of automatons in the 17th century in the UK, which then develops punch cards, which then can be used on a loom, which then gives rise to Kevin (32:51.206) No, no, it's Baghdad as a wreck. Daniel (33:15.406) computer programming, then as you said, you've raised everything. I mean, it's so much more connected than we think it is. And I found that really inspiring. It reminded me of one of the ideals of the romantic philosophical movement, which I think I gleaned from my dad. My dad was a romantic, but he would never he would never have claimed that. But this idea that Kevin (33:19.536) Hmm. Daniel (33:45.23) kind of the unity of truth, that everything, if something is true, it's true, right? And it's kind of, and you can approach that truth from a lot of different angles. And for me personally, that's the kind of stuff that, some of the stuff that I get really excited about, this idea of truth being, Kevin (33:54.65) Hmm. Daniel (34:15.212) something that we can grow closer to on one side, perhaps through faith and spirituality and religion, on the other side, perhaps through science and reasoning and logic, on the other side through, you know, toys and play. But it seems like history bears that out, at least history seen through the lens of this book. Kevin (34:17.99) Mm-hmm. Kevin (34:38.586) Yeah, yeah, I think so that anything, well, you just never know. You never know where something's going to go and you don't know where somebody messing around with trying to get a piano to play on its own might lead to the invention of the computer or people trying to practice distillation because they're doing early chemistry lead to the creation of whiskey. And you just don't know what's going to cause what, which is very exciting. Daniel (35:02.306) You Kevin (35:06.282) and it points to history as unknown and we don't know how things are going to end up shaking out and that as you're saying everything is connected which is a real Buddhist notion that that nothing is completely separate and everything is interconnected that everything depends on something else and so ideas innovations are always coming from a prior influence and probably many influences, which means it's very exciting to be a part of all that process and to see these things develop. It makes me think of—there's a great saying by the French mystic Simone Bay, she said that—and she's writing from her own Christian perspective—she said that anything that is true reflects God and Jesus because Jesus said, am the truth. So she says even two plus two equals four somehow reflects the truth of God, which is really bizarre and trippy, but quite lovely too. Like if it's true, it's true. And what I like about it is the permission to be curious and accepting that comes from that. So, you know, if yoga is good and useful and true, you can do it and don't need to be afraid of it as some people might, because they're like, where's going to, you know. Daniel (35:57.934) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (36:03.88) I love that. Daniel (36:09.516) I love that, I love that. Kevin (36:25.37) lead to a portal to the devil or something. But no, like if it's true, then in a sense, yoga reflects God. If it works, it works. And Christianity at its best has been very willing to borrow and be influenced by things outside of itself, such as Buddhism and Stoicism and Arabic numerals and all sorts of things. Now there's plenty of contrary examples, but... Daniel (36:25.742) That's right. Daniel (36:32.11) That's right. Daniel (36:43.116) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (36:51.61) Yeah, if it works, works. And I love that idea that it gives us lot of permission to simply go explore. Daniel (36:58.53) Yeah, I love that. love that. What was the name of that mystic against Simone Vey? Okay. Kevin (37:03.63) Simone Vey, but it's written, you know, in American English it would be S-I-M-O-N-E Simone Weil, W-E-I-L. But I studied her in seminary and the guy was very insistent we call her Simone Vey. Daniel (37:14.158) Okay, okay, thank you. Daniel (37:19.724) Okay, C'est M'Unvain. Thank you, thank you, yeah. Kevin (37:21.274) Yeah, she's actually Jewish, but she had a conversion experience. when I say she's, you know, she's, she's, again, thinks her everything has a prior cause. But yeah, very cool person. Daniel (37:32.706) Yeah, yeah, I love that. When it's true, I mean, if God is the God of... Daniel (37:41.644) what's true, then God is the God of what's true. You know, it's just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:45.703) Right, right. So you look at like you look at the Eiffel Tower or bridge you're like well still standing so it must be true versus a bridge that was poorly built and fell down. You're like well that one wasn't true. Daniel (37:53.09) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Have you? Daniel (38:01.39) Have you heard speaking of two plus two equals four and God being in that or Jesus being that? Have you heard this notion that like math is the purest language? It kind of reminded me a little bit of that, this idea. Yeah. Our daughter is a mathematician and our son enjoys mathematics and they talk a lot about that. Yeah, that it expresses ideas. Kevin (38:10.95) No. Kevin (38:23.078) Is it because it's precise? Daniel (38:30.766) And in a lot of ways, maybe not in every way, I don't know enough about the subject to say for definitively, but in a lot of ways, it expresses those ideas. in a way that totally devoid of, well I shouldn't say totally, but devoid of. of cultural expectation and judgment. it's just, know, two plus two equals four communicates an idea. Kevin (38:54.886) Mmm. Daniel (39:05.582) in its pure form in a way. Mathematics is the purest language. Yeah, lay it on me. Kevin (39:08.39) Huh, I never heard that. Kevin (39:13.016) Have you heard as a response, a music professor at Pfeiffer once told me that math or told me that music is just math. And I was so absolutely bewildered. Because it seems so opposite to math, because music is this very emotional feeling thing. But but of course, she's right. Like it's about keys and harmonics and wave. Daniel (39:23.694) Mmm. Hmm, interesting. Kevin (39:41.383) forms right like A is 440 megahertz or whatever whatever I'm sure I got that wrong but it's something A is 440 and you have a key you have a time time and key you know it's four four time right and you count the beats and so it's it's all just math there's an octave isn't it though because it's the lab I you hear a great song and you don't you're not thinking math you're thinking Daniel (39:42.776) Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Daniel (39:58.69) So interesting. What? Kevin (40:07.768) know, emotion and feeling and individualization, like this person singing about their life experience or something, but it's all just... Daniel (40:10.424) Yeah. Daniel (40:15.266) How is it that math can move us emotionally and spiritually? That's interesting. I guess if goes back to if math is a language, maybe that's the way that it does that. Huh, interesting. Kevin (40:21.734) We're We're crazy. Kevin (40:26.33) Yeah, we keep getting, this is our off topic topic. Daniel (40:30.508) Well, that's true. That's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. It's great. So, well, related to this idea that everything's connected, I think kind of another takeaway from that is I think it pokes at this modern myth of... Kevin (40:33.062) No, I revel in it. I revel in it. I revel in it. Daniel (40:52.396) that we moderns like to enjoy and tell ourselves that we are, we're all kind of self-made people, right? We're a self-made generation in a self-made world and the self-made people that really it exposes that as something that's not true, right? That we're, because every idea comes from some other idea, which comes from some other idea, which comes from some other idea, we are the products Kevin (41:16.592) Yes. Daniel (41:21.646) of generations and generations and generations and generations of creative and curious and smart people around the world who have led up to this moment. And really it's just how untrue it is that I'm here sitting at this desk talking to you because I've somehow made this life for myself. I guess there's a little bit of truth to that, but... but there's a whole lot of untruths to that as well, or non-truth or falseness or whatever, you know, that I had nothing to with this computer that I'm talking to, or this desk, or anything that I'm sitting at, you know, yeah, yeah. Kevin (41:58.116) Absolutely. Kevin (42:02.31) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and in the early Middle Ages, they built buildings that 800 years later are still standing. And we can't do that. We can't do that. You know, the ability to build those things without all sorts of fancy gadgets and math and computer simulations we can run. I mean, they could just do it by building models and measuring. And they were smart as heck. And we don't give them enough credit for the fact. We just we think of the Middle Ages as the Dark Ages, but they were geniuses. Right. Daniel (42:10.766) Yes, yes. No, no. Daniel (42:26.51) Yes. Daniel (42:33.026) Right, right, right. And I'm sure you've heard this idea that, know, the cathedrals were built over the spans of multiple lifetimes, right, in some cases. And so, mean, not only were they really smart, but they were in some ways had so much of a vision beyond their own lifetimes and the concerns of their own generation, right? Like, I'm working on something that I'm not going to see the end of. But that's okay. know, and that's, there's something kind of inspiring about that. I don't know, yeah. Kevin (43:07.578) Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, so the myths that we are self-made or we're so much smarter than the past or, you know, because we've got a computer, we're suddenly can work magic when all it takes is one, you know, Windows error and the entire banking system collapses type things, right? So, you know, how clever really are we? Everything's connected and, and yeah, we're not as self-made as we think. And sometimes the great inventions of Daniel (43:23.918) That's right, that's right. Kevin (43:37.466) the history of humanity are not from self-made-ness or necessity, but from play and from clever people in the past who are like, I'm gonna make a robot that plays cards or tells fortunes or something, like that weird one in the arcade. Daniel (43:53.364) Mm hmm. yeah. Yeah, that one is weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which gets, you know, if if we connect the concept of play and grace as we do sometimes somehow related on this on this podcast, I mean, that's. I think that goes really well with that idea as well. That if. Kevin (43:55.174) Remember, they could have hand moves out. Daniel (44:17.25) these playful ideas have shaped us and made us who we are in ways we never anticipated. And yet it just seemed so silly at the time. mean, yeah, it's a gift, right? It's a gift and it wasn't meant for any kind of utilitarian instrumental purpose. It was meant as something that was delightful and wonderful and we're here today because of it. it seems like it at least has echoes of what grace is all about as well, this idea of. of a love and a goodness that. is just the whites in things. Kevin (44:52.474) Yeah, and it surpasses expectations and it also demands a certain humility because you didn't really earn it. So it's a gift. so, all our ancestors, either direct or indirect people that came before us, they're not gone. And yeah, we just have to be humble and enjoy an amazing world. And remember that sometimes, Daniel, sometimes play can save the world. Daniel (44:57.634) Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Daniel (45:09.699) No. Daniel (45:19.055) Yes, What what what did you say really? Kevin (45:25.038) It's something I heard somewhere. saw it. I think it was a bumper sticker. It said, Saves the World. Daniel (45:31.93) you know what? We should make bumper stickers. That would be neat. But yeah, you're right that sometimes play can save the world. That's that's kind of the idea of the podcast. Kevin (45:40.901) Yeah. Daniel (45:46.53) that play can contribute. Well, no, that yeah, play can save the world. And I think one, that's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And I think, you know, as a distinction, it would be awesome to be Superman. Is that the superhero you'd be if you could pick any superhero? Kevin (45:56.495) Or at least make it a better place. mean, you can... You don't have to be Superman. That'd be really awesome. Kevin (46:12.678) Probably I don't mean mostly because I'm as the trailers out. I'm so excited. Have you seen it with crypto the dog saves them? I'm so excited. Yes looks so good Daniel (46:17.23) It's a good trailer. Yes, yes, it is a good trailer. Yeah. But, I think one thing with this idea of play saving the world that this book maybe comes out from a slightly different angle than we do. I mean, I think this and no judgment. It was the focus of the book. The purpose of this book is to look at how play contributes to largely technological advancements or any other kind of advancements. And I think And I get that and that's great, a great story to tell. But I think one of the points we often make and wrestle with on this podcast is that if play... is seen only as that which contributes to something else, then it's not really play, right? That play is most play when it's an end unto itself and we don't see it for the purposes of, we don't see it through an instrumental lens. It's an instrument towards something else. Because then it really ceases to be play, then it's just a part of whatever that bigger thing is working well. Kevin (47:08.774) Mm-hmm. Kevin (47:22.096) Right, right. Daniel (47:27.79) which then I think takes me, guess, to what I would say maybe would be my final takeaway on all of this. Yes. Kevin (47:33.722) Daniel, what's your final takeaway? Daniel (47:38.295) Velcro. Daniel (47:45.016) Kevin, what's your position on Velcro? Kevin (47:50.502) Well, I'm certainly going to not put any tariffs on it and just accept it. Daniel (47:51.448) You Daniel (47:59.426) That's just a free trade of Velcro. Everyone gets Velcro. Everyone. I love it. I love it. I support that. Kevin (48:01.958) free trade of Velcro. Make a little Velcro in your soul. Daniel (48:09.122) Yeah. I love that song. Remember the, the song everyone get on the Velcro train from the sixties? Everyone. Yeah. Everyone get on the Velcro train. Yeah. We're making all of this up. so the, I guess my final takeaway from this would be. Kevin (48:17.466) No. Kevin (48:24.677) making this up. Daniel (48:32.717) Hmm. Daniel (48:38.626) Sometimes we change the world not by setting out to change the world, but by just creating space and opportunity for people to play. And... Daniel (49:00.354) The better we do that, the more we do that, the more that maybe even increases the likelihood for the world to change in a good way. But that, I don't know. Daniel (49:18.318) Sometimes if we set out to change the world. In I would venture to say the vast majority of times maybe that we set out to change the world, it will end in frustration, right? Because the world's a really big place and we are tiny little people. Kevin (49:32.006) Mm-hmm. Kevin (49:36.998) Hmm. Daniel (49:43.768) but we can create spaces for people to play and delight and explore and that can have the side benefit of changing the world in positive ways. Kevin (50:01.696) Yeah, you can play for fun, for mental health, for relaxation, to find community, to express yourself, but you also can, yeah, make the world a better place. Save the world. Who knew? Daniel (50:16.13) Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I think this one maybe especially kind of just resonated with me. I, I, yeah, when I think about the role, the work of the church, the role, the work of pastors and Kevin and I, for our listeners, don't know, we're both pastors. you know, the world has always been messed up and the world has always had challenges. And our world today is certainly no exception to that. The world's messed up in a lot of ways. It's wonderful in a lot of ways too, but messed up in a lot of ways as well. And I... Kevin (50:51.632) Hmm. Daniel (51:06.862) I like, I'm sure all of us do, you know, encounter people who are very discouraged by that and I'm often discouraged myself by that. And how best to respond to that as a church or as people of faith, whatever the faith tradition. It's a tough thing to figure out, right? Because if you, on the one hand, the response can be, well, we need to go out and change the world. And I do want to go out and change the world. but also recognizing how the vast majority of time will end in frustration. We can also. create space for Daniel (51:55.736) But we can also create space for things like play and grace and delight to happen, virtue to happen. And maybe that's a less frustrating way of trying to change the world. don't know. What it reminds me of, there's a quote I heard from Jamar Tisby, who is a contemporary author. writes on issues of faith and racism that has stuck with me. Where he says essentially, maybe the most... thing we as people on faith can do is in the face of all the things we're facing right now is maybe the most critical thing we can do is he says the simplest and the least visible which is just to cultivate virtue and maybe we could put play in that as well and we think we'd call play a virtue anyway it's Kevin (52:46.79) Mm-hmm. Kevin (52:55.012) Yeah. Cultivate play. Yeah, I like it. I like it. Daniel (52:59.603) I don't know. Does that resonate at all with any of the things you ever feel like you're? Kevin (53:04.324) It does, it does. think, you know, play is this way of taking things seriously, but not too seriously. And I think that's such a healthy way to live and to approach problems, because a lot of times problems will work themselves out on their own. We're incredibly anxious. And sometimes we think we are in charge of everything and can fix everything or as pastors that this sermon is going to be really important. And the truth is we'll do a lot better. Daniel (53:06.018) Facing, yeah. Daniel (53:30.542) This will change everything. Kevin (53:31.995) This will change everything and everyone sitting there is just hungry and looking at their watch and you know, it's alright, we're human beings. So having a playful attitude helps with all those problems. Either our anxieties or our saviour complexes or our control or our anxiety, just being like, you know, it's just a game. And again, that idea that maybe all of life is a game, which came about through Ali Carrar quoting Daniel (53:38.744) That's right, that's right. Daniel (53:43.254) Yeah. Kevin (54:01.478) the Quran to us, right? That all of life is a game. There's a verse that can be translated that way in the Islamic Quran. And yeah, that's a kind of... Daniel (54:03.19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (54:09.57) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (54:17.936) That to me feels authentic. We want to hold life preciously and dearly, but not too tightly. Daniel (54:27.086) I like that. Preciously and dearly, but not tightly. Kevin (54:27.952) So yeah, just hold it. Yeah, not like, my god, because truth is we're all gonna die and that isn't to make us upset, it's just to remember you can't take it with you anyway. Like, what's the point of, and we're all gonna die sick. Like, you can't be perfect, you're not gonna be in perfect health, you can't take things with you, so the answer is to hold life gently. It's not gonna matter whether you hold it tightly or not at the end. Daniel (54:58.734) So you might as well hold it gently, yeah. Kevin (55:00.582) You might as well hold it gently. You'll have a lot more fun than being like, will, you know, I can't get on a plane or do this or that because something bad might happen. Well, the truth is something bad might happen that you don't even foresee. So there's no point. Daniel (55:15.712) is true with so much in life. I like that. Yeah, in some ways. Kevin (55:19.642) Yeah, a person told me that. Like, if you worry about something beforehand, it means you probably will just suffer it twice. If it does happen, you suffer it twice. So why would you worry about it and make yourself suffer twice? Just suffer it once. And it may not happen anyway, so don't worry about it. Or I had a church member say, it's an old country saying, don't dig up more snakes than you can kill. I guess some idea you could dig up the snakes to kill them that have gone to Daniel (55:30.146) Right, right. Daniel (55:34.754) Yeah, yeah. that is wise. Right. Daniel (55:44.014) Hmm. Kevin (55:48.098) sleep in the winter but don't dig up more than you can kill. Daniel (55:50.878) I wish I had heard that before this morning. Kevin (55:53.991) Really? You feel like you dug up a s- Oh. Are you making a joke or are serious? Okay. I thought you thought something had happened. Daniel (55:55.618) I dug up a big, big, big den of snakes and it was, yeah, I'm joking. I'm making a joke. that was, was, It was not a good joke. It was not a good joke, sorry. No, I wasn't speaking a metaphor. I was trying to make a joke. That's right, that's right, that's right. No, don't dig up more snakes than you could kill. That's, yeah, yeah, that's... Kevin (56:09.862) Kristen's right behind you with a knife about to stab you because she's still mad about that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, being playful is a way to, you know, we still have to be responsible and pay our bills and all that stuff. yeah, whatever. Whatever, dude. Who knew? Who knew? Daniel (56:28.642) Whatever. Yeah. Who knew? Well, Kevin, this has been great. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you to our listeners for it's been especially great listeners to have you joining us in the conversation. We really do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You are a brilliant, brilliant man. Thanks for sharing some of your brilliance with us. Kevin (56:36.974) It has been great. Kevin (56:43.876) Yeah. Thanks to Steven Johnson. If you're out there, Mr. Johnson, you wrote a great book. Appreciate you. Daniel (56:56.724) And yeah, we appreciate so much those of you who listening and if you made it to the end, that means so much. You don't know how much... Kevin has an in. That's right. That's right. That's right. Hey, hey, hey, I got this podcast. Do you think you could do me a deal? Kevin (57:04.25) Yep. And you will get to heaven automatically. Kevin (57:09.542) It's a little Deo-I-Cut. Kevin (57:15.27) Who needs sponsors? You could have eternal. Daniel (57:20.75) You Daniel (57:27.288) Great. Well, and Kevin, how can people find us? Kevin (57:31.376) They can find us on Instagram at Play Saves the World or at our kind of old podcast name Board Game Faith. And they can find us at playsavestheworld.org. .org. Yeah, thank you for that. Daniel (57:47.982) And email us too, you can reach us playsavestheworldatgmail.com. Especially, we keep saying this, but as it's getting closer, we just want to say it again. If you are going to the Geek Way Board Game Convention in St. Charles in May of 2025, email us. We'd love to play games with you. Let us know. Kevin (58:08.87) Yeah, Daniel's even better in real life. Which is hard to imagine. He's even better. It's even better. Daniel (58:14.43) if you define a better word, a weirder, I don't know, whatever that is. That's that's I have a. It'll be great. be great. Well, thanks so much, everybody. Kevin (58:19.991) I'm so excited. So excited. Geek way! Okay, stay safe. Bye. Daniel (58:30.744) Take care, bye bye.