Daniel (00:04.638) It's the joy of solo games. On this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation on the meaning of play and games for human flourishing. Daniel (00:35.308) Hello, welcome everybody. It's amazing, terrific, spectacular to have you joining us today. Thank you for taking time to tune into our little podcast. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:37.4) Hello. Kevin (00:50.506) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:52.678) And we are very grateful to you for spending some time with us today as we are talking about the joy of solo games, the joy of solo games. Kevin, you like solo games, don't you? Yeah, they're a little bit different from the kind of games we often talk about on this podcast. We usually do multiplayer. Kevin (01:08.888) do like solo games, I do. Kevin (01:17.176) Yeah, so many rich experiences of gaming are connecting with others and playing and interacting and so you're losing that bit. So it's a different type of feel. yeah, it's a different thing. Different beast, but it's still a game. Daniel (01:34.741) Yeah, yeah, it is. And for the purposes of this podcast, I guess we should let our listeners know right away in case they're expecting something else. We're not talking about, you know, like solo video games, which are great in and of themselves. But these are solo tabletop games, right? Card games, board games, things like that. Yeah, yeah. I've heard the argument. Well, we'll get into that in a little bit. First of all. Kevin (01:52.43) correct. Daniel (02:02.197) So what is a solo board or card game as opposed to like a regular board or card game? What are some thoughts on what distinguishes those things? Kevin (02:15.608) There are two tracks here. One is a game that is mostly designed for multiple players, but there is a solo option. And so often it involves, it's called a bot or an AI, which is a bit of a stretch because it's not actually has any electricity running to it. Can AI exist without power is beyond the scope of today's discussion. Daniel (02:17.825) Okay. Daniel (02:38.358) Yeah. Kevin (02:44.962) But yeah, it's a bit of an analogy to call it an AI, but it's some sort of a bot or something, which is interesting because whatever's happening for that AI bot, I just did it, it can't see the board, right? So you either have to give it information or just assume certain things about what you're doing as it tries to make your life more difficult. Daniel (02:45.11) Beyond the Scope. Daniel (03:07.456) Right, right. Or it just randomizes decisions, which isn't really very AI-ish either, like independent of anything you do. Yeah. Kevin (03:15.49) Right. Yes, yes. So it may be it's assuming or it's just, yeah, so it's picking cards to, if there's a card drafting, cards are being taken out, which is an issue. If there's only one or even two players, there aren't enough, there's not enough card migration. What would you call it? Card... Disapporation? Like not enough cards are being taken from the market. Consumption. Yeah. Daniel (03:41.1) Consumption? No, discarding. Consumption? Burning. Kevin (03:45.87) Burning Man, the card edition, elimination. Daniel (03:47.318) Elimination, shredding. Daniel (03:53.378) I'm gonna shred through those cards, man. Kevin (03:53.678) Threaded, Yes. Yeah, so it's going to do things to make the game more interesting, more difficult, and to present a challenge. Often it's in the guise of a timer. So some games, like say, Ark Nova, the main thing it does... Yeah, so it's pulling some cards off of that market. The solo version, the bass solo version. And it's also... Daniel (04:19.488) Yeah. Kevin (04:21.058) giving you a timer like you have to get so many points in so many turns so it makes you be more efficient and that's the challenge it presents otherwise you're just kind of lollygagging Daniel (04:34.594) So that's the first type of solo game. It's a, it's. Kevin (04:37.378) Yes, although we should also add there are games that you can kind of hack and make them solo. And how does that happen, Daniel? Daniel (04:46.07) Yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, you're right. Some multiplayer games have a built-in solo mode. The instruction manual tells you how to do. But you're right. Sometimes there are multiplayer games that don't have a built-in solo mode. And then you can find kind of fan-made solo modes on the interwebs. This is like the fan fiction of the game on the interwebs, especially Kevin (05:03.427) Mm-hmm. Daniel (05:14.046) If you go to a website that you, Kevin, you may have heard of called BoardGameGeek, BoardGameGeek.com, to our view of, that's right, our viewer, our listener, many of our listeners probably know this. Some of you all may not have heard of it before. I think we've said before, it's not even fair to say arguably the definitive board game website. It just is the definitive board game website. Kevin (05:21.912) Yes. one site to rule them all. Daniel (05:43.359) If you look up a game, a multiplayer game, that does not have a solo mode on BoardGameGeek, chances are, at least fair, that someone out there has created a fan-made solo mode for that multiplayer board game. That's right. Kevin (05:57.262) tries to hack it somehow. Some games simply can't. It probably is almost impossible, like an auction type game where there is secret information. You really need someone else making a decision that has secret information. And so there are probably some games that are just impossible. I did try the solo version for Twilight Imperium, fourth edition. Daniel (06:14.742) Yeah, yeah, that's right. Daniel (06:25.812) was that fan made? Kevin (06:28.958) No, it doesn't exist. just made that up. No, think that would be impossible. kind of game would be absolutely impossible. Yeah, it would be insane. Daniel (06:31.2) okay. That would be, I see. That would take, I mean, the game itself takes, what, three or four manuals? I mean, throw in another few manuals for solo mode. Kevin (06:43.884) Yeah, well, there's just so many things to do. There's no way it would, you know, it wouldn't know what the, the, the, what are the scoring objectives, the public objectives. It wouldn't know that you're about to invade its home planet. Like there's just no way. So if some games can't do it, lots, lots of them can though. And there might be a fan made, there may be one in the box or it may be a co-op game. And with the co-op game, Little Secret, you can pretty much. almost always I'm hedging my bets just play two characters or more. It's a solo game. Daniel (07:19.19) That's right. That's right. And then it's solo game. Yeah. One of the most famous co-op tabletop games out there, Pandemic. Yeah. You just decide to play as the medic and the, I don't remember, Sergeant at Arms or the, the circus master, the medic and the... Kevin (07:36.312) Mm-hmm. I think it's just Medic. Wait, yeah. Yes. There is a planner. Operation Specialist. Because those are the two. And they tag-team the board. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, you just play two. Yeah, and that totally works for almost all co-op games. There are some co-op games that have a little secret mission, like Gloomhaven. You can play two characters, but in theory, in Gloomhaven, you have your own secret objective. Daniel (07:45.706) and the operation specialist. Daniel (07:51.68) That's right. So then one turn you play as the medic, the next turn you play as the next one. Yeah. Kevin (08:09.452) And that breaks it just a little, most people aren't playing it really. They're not too worried about, you know, playing Gloomhaven for the thrills of that secret mission. So it's okay. Daniel (08:19.852) That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we've got multiplayer games that have a solo mode or fan-made solo mode. We have cooperative games you can play solo. Basically, you just play two characters. And then... Kevin (08:27.266) Yep. Yep. Kevin (08:37.72) Then we have Daniel (08:39.136) They're also just solo games that are just designed to be solo games, right? Like right out of the gate. Yeah. The only way to play it. Kevin (08:44.664) Crazy, crazy. It is, it's the only way to play it. Now you could, and with these games, you could like take turns, like you could do it with two people. I mean, there are ways, like you, you each take a turn or some games are kind of soloish, but they might have multiple people. And so you take turns as a person within the game. I'm thinking of sleeping gods or something like that. You have a crew and if you're playing by yourself, may solo, you may have Daniel (09:09.622) Yeah. Kevin (09:13.612) all eight characters and if you had two people each of you get four characters and you're kind of divvying up who kind of does what but yeah there are some ways where it's almost soloish really in the sense that you're not playing distinct characters vying for their own points yeah Daniel (09:17.964) Right, right. Daniel (09:34.605) So the thing I was thinking about at the beginning too, that I alluded to and then pivoted away from is this question of, I've heard the argument that essentially a solo game is always really just kind of a puzzle. It can almost be described more as a puzzle sometimes than as a game. And we might just be getting into semantics there. Yeah, dear Jordan, one of our most faithful listeners. Hey Jordan. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Kevin (09:40.76) Mmm. Kevin (09:53.144) And our friend Jordan hates that, I think. Kevin (09:59.106) Yes. Hi. Kevin (10:03.68) I think it's kind of true and I think it's fine because puzzles are great and it's still like... I mean a puzzle is a game in the sense that there is a win condition, right? Daniel (10:13.312) Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. Kevin (10:15.31) So can you ever put it together or not? Yeah, it is more of a puzzle just because you're either running against a timer or you are... So it's like a Rubik's Cube type thing. You're trying to see how quickly you could... If you could solve it, I can't, but I get the idea. Pattern recognition, whatever. And so you're just trying to see how fast you can do it. You can do that with a puzzle, you can do that with a board game. How many turns can you get? Yeah, it's a puzzle-like, as well as if it has a solo mode, it's not a genuine character making real either good choices or bad choices. It's just somehow reacting to the game state or it is just doing things because it assumes it knows how you win the game and it's mucking around with that and providing you something interesting as well as a point value to exceed. Daniel (11:02.402) Right. Right. Kevin (11:13.954) but it doesn't bring the faults and interests and quirks of a real person. so the trick with some of these solo games is you might know how the solo game works and then you really can game it in a sense, right? Daniel (11:26.484) Mm hmm. Yep. Yep. Yep. Which then kind of becomes part of puzzle again. Kevin (11:30.174) Or if it's, yeah, part of the puzzle is you know how, or if it has a little solo mode, you know how that little bot functions. And so it really comes about hacking the bot less than playing the game in some ways. That's, think, which is, but that's fun. That's the puzzle. That's what's rewarding, yeah. Daniel (11:44.749) Yeah, it is, it is, yeah, yeah. Which maybe brings us, yeah, to, and that brings us, I think, to some of the benefits of solo gaming. You and I have, I like that. This is something we have done. Kevin (11:50.072) Getting the tempo to it. Yeah. Kevin (11:59.106) Los Benefitos. I don't know if that's a real palabra de español. I just coined it. Daniel (12:08.034) Hmm. Daniel (12:11.638) I like maybe it's an. Kevin (12:13.592) Why do you coin words? Daniel (12:15.298) How do you, I think. Kevin (12:17.336) What is coin? What does a metal disc have to do with the word? Daniel (12:21.29) you mint it? you're like you're like you mint a coin and you also you mint a new word maybe? Etymologically? Is that how they're connected? Kevin (12:22.432) You You meant? Kevin (12:27.864) Do you? Okay. Kevin (12:32.417) Right. Or entomologically, like the roaches. Bring us the insects, bring us the words. Daniel (12:33.856) I don't know. Or entomologically, you know who really loves a deep dive into word studies? The Japanese beetle. Yeah, they love, they love. We have a Japanese beetle out here that's been attacking our cherry tree. Just one, it's a really big Japanese beetle. Kevin (12:46.712) the renowned entomologist. Kevin (12:51.425) you Kevin (12:58.126) Just one beetle. Really angry. Daniel (13:04.166) And it's like the size of a small dog. And OK. But I distract it. we learned that it won't attack the tree if we engage it in word studies, because it loves word studies. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a deeply fascinating. Give it a rune, rune studies. Kevin (13:07.815) Daniel, that's a, I think it's actually a rhinoceros. It's not a Japanese beetle. Kevin (13:18.188) Right, right, right. I just love the word study, yeah. Kevin (13:26.35) If give it a rune, give it a rune with like a, yeah, it's really happy with the rune. Yes, there are benefits of solo gaming, Daniel. And tell me about, what are your thoughts? Daniel (13:39.437) Yes. Yeah, well, I think the first one is just kind of what you were talking about, that part of the joy of solo gaming is just improving your skill in it, right? I mean, just there's a certain satisfaction in self-improvement in any area, right? Including in just how do I unlock the puzzle of this game, right? And just feeling like you can do that gives you a little sense of being, I'm kind of clever, I can do this. Jane McGonigal would say kind of that little... microdose of dopamine you just I just figured this out you know how clever this is and yeah there's a game that's gonna show up later on on my top five solo board game list at the end that has very much been that way for me like I it's very very hard at least for me and at first I had no hope of really ever defeating it but Kevin (14:28.088) Mm-hmm. Daniel (14:35.21) As I've played it a lot of times, every now and then I kind of win. And that just feels neat to have seen that sense of improvement over time with how I interact with this game system. so yeah, that's one benefit is just the satisfaction of improvement, of self-improvement in any area, including a skill, yeah, a board game skill. Kevin (14:49.134) to hear what the game is. Yeah. Absolutely. It's the best way, I think, to get good at games. Anyone that's good at games has simply played a lot of games. They may be smart as well, but they have a lot of experience. And how are you going to get that experience? Do you have people that will constantly play games with you in your life? You might, but most people don't. So the only way to get better at any games is solo gaming. And in the past few years, I've done more solo gaming. I think that's really... Daniel (14:59.414) That's right. That's right. Daniel (15:05.494) That's right. Kevin (15:20.546) helped all my gaming. I'm still not just a great board gamer. But the idea of really strategizing, well, it's okay, it's all right. But I've gotten better and it's because I'm strategizing because solo gaming really, yeah, you can immediately, you can dissect the game and be like, okay, how did I lose? What went wrong? And it had something to do with the tempo of the game or exceeding certain things or right or... Daniel (15:25.217) I think you're great. Yeah, no, understand. I'm not either. I'm not either. Yeah. Daniel (15:40.79) Yeah. Kevin (15:50.666) not being efficient and you get to try again and again and again. It's like that Doctor Who episode where he had to keep breaking the, you know, right, when he had to keep getting the time loop one. Daniel (15:59.607) the time loop to self-improvement over millions of years. Yeah. Kevin (16:03.916) Yeah. Which is like the Tom Cruise movie. What was it? Edge of Tomorrow or something? Where a similar bit where he kept getting reborn. He had to memorize the... Groundhog. It's the same thing. Wait a minute. Yeah, so practice makes perfect. And you see someone who plays the piano well or plays board games well. It's all the same thing. They've practiced a lot. And so, yeah. Daniel (16:10.499) yeah, yeah. It's kind of like the Groundhog Day premise, But in a cooler... Daniel (16:23.81) That's right, that's right. Daniel (16:31.436) Yeah. Kevin (16:32.312) This is you get better at games is playing a lot and solo gaming is the easiest way to do it. All you need is time and a table. Daniel (16:37.526) That's right. That's right. Practice, practice. I like it. So that's one benefit. What's another benefit of solo gaming, would you say? Kevin (16:42.456) Yeah, absolutely. so a game, it's so great to explore a game. And I'm going to get to some of my other thoughts. But yeah, you get to explore a game at your pace. So it's a game you don't know, or you want to try something out. And you can pause, you can go to the bathroom, you can go pour yourself a Diet Coke. You don't have to worry about anyone else. It's like the joys of traveling by yourself or eating out by yourself on occasion. You just get to do whatever you want and you don't have to worry about anybody else. And so you can explore a game and its mechanics and you're not stuck with responding to someone else's actions in the game. You just do what you want. And it's the best way to learn a game is to sort of play it solo or play two hands and just try to get your head around the game. Unless it's Twilight Imperium, right Daniel? Daniel (17:17.526) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (17:27.83) Yeah, yeah. It really is. Kevin (17:40.184) Daniel tried. Daniel (17:41.411) kudos to the person who can play Twilight Imperium solo. That's right. Yeah. No, I love, I did, I did try to do that and I failed miserably. Yeah. No, I think I tried three cause it's a minimum of three and I was, and I was, yeah, that it, I had a massive table set up and I had to go around the table cause you can't just keep it all in front of yourself. So I had to like move to the different spots and they found me collapsed on the floor in the morning. was, it was tough. The, but I love that. That's a really good point. And you know, it, it, Kevin (17:44.782) Cause you tried it. Remember you said you did. Yeah. You did try to play two hands. You're like, I. Kevin (17:54.284) Yeah, that's too much. Kevin (17:58.926) you Kevin (18:04.94) Right, right, right. Daniel (18:11.094) that makes me realize that there is kind of another form of solo gaming we didn't mention at the beginning, which is what I think I heard you just say and something that I do almost every time to learn a new game, a multiplayer game, is that I just play two hands, two players of the game against kind of against themselves. like you said, some games you can't do that, but so many games you can. like, so whenever I get a new game, before I play it with anyone else, I try to... play just a really simple two-player game against myself so I can learn how it works. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a great idea. It's a great way to get to know a game. I like it. Kevin (18:50.37) Right, right. Or it may have a solo mode and you can just play the solo mode and least get the rules set down and figure out the tempo of the game. So yeah. Yeah, I uh-huh. No, you go ahead. Daniel (19:03.124) except GWT. No, I was just gonna make a silly joke, is uncalled for in this podcast. I don't like playing against myself. Daniel (19:24.128) Keep going, sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Kevin (19:25.486) And it's also hard if you're playing a game by yourself because you end up having to be mean to yourself. Daniel (19:34.881) That brings us to the third point. You're the master of transitions. You're the transition master. I love that. was... It was like that. It was like that. It was great. Speaking of Doctor Who, I love the episode for the transition master. Do you remember the transition master? No, I just made that up, but it was just riffing. Just riffing. Kevin (19:36.972) us think. Kevin (19:43.522) See that transition? I just went from normal to scared. It was really good transition. Kevin (19:54.795) Did that? Did I see that one? the thing with Doctor Who is it could be an episode of Doctor Who. There's no telling. Daniel (20:03.7) It could be. I am transition master. OK, so. Kevin (20:09.496) Time to die, Doctor, you'll show transition to death. Sonic screwdriver. I am defeated. Daniel (20:12.226) It's the ultimate transition. So yeah, you're right. another benefit of solo gaming, as you just alluded to so well, Transition Master, TM, as I like to call you for short, is that it avoids the whole awkward, am I being mean to another player thing, right? Kevin (20:37.356) Right. Right. Daniel (20:38.738) And you and I have talked a lot about this before and you've got such a, you have such a wonderful perspective on this, Kevin, which I really admire and appreciate and aspire to, you know, cause the truth is there are players, of course, who can take it too far. But if you're approaching a game, I think we would say in the right way and the helpful way and the healthy way, it's not about being mean to the other person. It's just about, it's just about, Kevin (20:44.394) Aww. Daniel (21:05.986) Following the mechanics of the game which you need to do in order for the game to be a plea a viable experience for everybody, but There's still there's still oftentimes for some people including me This sense of like I'm being mean to somebody, know, like I don't I don't want to be mean to this person I I just came you and I were talking before we started recording. I just came from a conference Where play saves the world was gave some Kevin (21:20.878) especially Daniel's. Hmm. Daniel (21:35.703) presentation yeah, shout out to the pause play conference for clergy in in Kansas City and But that was you know what some of the participants talked about that they just you know They don't like games because you just feel like you're have to be mean to somebody and I can understand that And so you avoid that whole thing when you do a solo game. You're not being mean to anybody. I've never been some solo games That's a multiplayer game, but it has a solo mode and I just I just Kevin (21:53.688) Yeah. Daniel (22:04.502) double down on really mean aggressive strategy in playing the solo mode because I know I'm not grinding down anyone. I'm not wearing down anyone. It's just the mechanic of the game. Yeah. Sorry. Kevin (22:17.678) Right, right. Or you're grinding down the AI bot, chat bot, chat bot? The chat GPT chat bot. So yeah, you're beating on this little bot thing that solo mode and who cares? It's not a real person. It doesn't have feelings because it doesn't have a central nervous system. So you're okay, you're all right. There's no mechanism for pain, registering pain within the cards. So yeah. Daniel (22:35.17) That's right. Daniel (22:38.956) That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (22:46.398) There was that one time that the the meeple Cried a little tear one little one little tear when I was really mean to it. It was Kevin (22:54.698) That was just a dream, Daniel. It was a dream within a game within a dream, yes. Yeah, no, it's just off topic a little, but the meanness factor is interesting. I think what would really be mean is someone targeting someone and it's not in the spirit of winning or they're... I mean, I know what you're saying and I'm okay with going after someone a bit within a game, but not exclusively. I wouldn't want to like... Daniel (22:57.108) It was true. Daniel (23:16.15) Yeah. Kevin (23:24.448) If it's a game where you're kind of fighting, if I kept picking fights with you, with my meeples or characters, that would seem mean. Or if I simply want to take points from you, but it's not going to help me win the game, that would be mean. But anything else within a game, I don't know. People are probably used to Monopoly, where you really do win by eliminating others. But there's so many other games, like Rude or something, where yeah, you can call, I mean, you do, there's attrition. You're basically taking a point off each other constantly to slow them down because you're racing to 30 points. that's just the nature of the game. Yeah. And I don't blame anyone for that. And boy, it's a great comeback story if you can still win the game. And I've seen people do it, especially with the game like Root that has a mechanism for a comeback. There's like an alternate win condition. So that's the best win of all is someone beat up on you you still won. Daniel (23:55.83) Yeah. Daniel (24:01.9) Yeah. Daniel (24:08.226) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:22.126) But as long as it's in service of winning, it's okay, it's fair, it's part of the game. It's like chess or something. Daniel (24:22.218) And the best, that's right. And a lot of the really, yeah, sorry, I interrupt you. No, just going on with what you were saying. that a lot of the best games or many of the best games are really well designed games or games that are sensitive to that, right? Like you just said, that have a mecha doesn't beat it. Because mean, game designers know also that no one's gonna like their game if they feel like. Kevin (24:29.9) Yeah, no, that's all. I'm just, yeah. Kevin (24:42.158) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:50.246) players feel like they're crushed and there's no hope of ever winning, they're never going to play that game again. And game designers want you to play their games again, right? So I mean, good. Yeah. Kevin (24:59.82) I think that's part of the play testing is they want to see does it engage people? Do people have fun? And you have fun if you feel like you did something in the game. So like the Garfield games and the testing they do is, think, you know, are people enjoying or they feeling like they did something in the game even if they don't win? So they've accumulated resources, they got more powerful, they have a story arc. And yeah, you want that. You don't want monopoly where you just get whittled away till you basically are bankrupted. Daniel (25:17.122) That's right. That's right. Kevin (25:28.302) So think a lot of this is the shadow of monopoly. Or maybe risk or something. So yeah, player elimination is not fun. But if you really don't want to cause other gamers pain, as Daniel does it, then the great news is there's Euro games. And that's some of the best games out there, Euro games where you really have minimal player interaction. But as I like to say, the problem with it is... Daniel (25:52.204) That's right. right. Yeah. You basically just. Kevin (25:56.834) There's a lot of pressure to optimize. There's no dice or crazy battles that might win it. And that makes the game a lot... can be lot more frustrating in my opinion. Because Lady Luck can't shine on you. It's all like, well I just made up... I messed up three turns ago and now I've lost. So that's not fun to me. Daniel (26:07.98) Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's fair. Daniel (26:15.074) Right, right. In some ways, yeah, winning or losing at a Euro game can feel like it's more tied. Some people can tie it more directly to a sense of like self-worth and value. Whereas a lucky game, yeah, yeah. Like you said, a more luck-based game. Kevin (26:29.548) I think I could on that path strangely. Because like I'm saying, I'm not just the best gamer. And so yeah, I'm like, how the heck did someone get 100 points in this game? I got 20. Daniel (26:36.214) Right. Daniel (26:40.684) Right, right, Which is how almost... Kevin (26:43.598) But if I roll a d20, there's a one in 20 chance I'll get a 20 and I win. Yay! So that's kind of fun. Daniel (26:48.29) That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're a great advocate evangelist for the joy of luck based games. And I like that. You've like a good point for that. Yeah. Kevin (26:56.046) thanks. Well, it's some of the most memorable gaming in my mind has been, which is a redundant saying, but you know, I'm getting at like the things that stick out are when the luck has altered the game and then everyone's surprised. You're like, wow, that's the moments you remember. There's that bit in Netflix and Stranger Things. I forget. Daniel (27:12.738) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (27:20.611) yeah, yeah. The famous DAD scene. Yeah. Kevin (27:22.028) He's in one or two, but they're playing the DND and she wrote they have to get a 20 and she rolls a 20 and he just goes, this is why we play like we play for this one moment that happens once every 10 years where you get the exact role you need and that is thrilling. Yeah. And a Euro game just can't deliver that. don't think there's things like it where you just play your most your best game, but it's not the thrill is not there. Daniel (27:29.28) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (27:35.202) Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. No, no, you're. Daniel (27:44.778) No, no, you're right. You're right. I love that's a great point. Kevin (27:46.84) Yeah. Anywho, but moving along, it's solo games means you don't do mean to others. It also means that you just get to play a lot more games. Unless you have to wait for group. And again, there are some people that are, they are, have a significant other that loves games as much as they do. And so they have a constant gaming partner and there are people out there like it, but I Daniel (27:59.905) Yeah, yeah, you don't have to wait for a group. Kevin (28:15.416) think they're more of a minority. Most people, know, opposites attract and all, or tastes are different in games. If you want to play some games and you don't have anyone else to play those games, solo games means you get to play them. That's great. Yeah. More games. Daniel (28:27.382) Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, it's a good opportunity to Daniel (28:35.966) explore other titles that you don't have to gather a group together or wait on someone else to do it. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Kevin (28:42.242) Yeah, and do a teach and people are just like, another, yeah, most of us board gamers, the thing we often hear is another new game to learn, right? And so you don't have to hear that. You can just learn the new game you want to learn. So that's pretty awesome. Daniel (28:45.878) Yeah. Daniel (28:52.386) Right, That's right, that's right. There is something, I think you'll find in many hobby board game fans that just the certain that love of learning new rules, which for folks who aren't necessarily big fans of hobby board games, that's not quite as something that brings them joy as much as others. Yeah. Kevin (29:05.954) Yes. Kevin (29:16.216) You have to have a love for the mechanisms and seeing how the board game designers solved certain problems or introduced a certain mechanism. And there is a delight in the hobbyists in seeing the mechanisms work together. It's like taking a watch apart and seeing how the parts work. And lots of people, the normies out there are like, this is, yeah. And they're right, they're right. Daniel (29:20.31) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (29:29.527) Yeah. Daniel (29:35.35) Yeah. Daniel (29:43.798) They're right, they're right, yeah. Kevin (29:46.996) What about some other thoughts of benefits? That's we've given four. Daniel (29:47.969) Well, yes. So another benefit of solo gaming that I have found is it can be kind of a meditative practice at the end of the day. And now this is, I guess, the opposite of what we just talking about. meditative practice of playing games is not easily achieved by learning a new game every night, right? This is something that Kevin (29:59.03) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:17.218) comes about by playing a very familiar game, right? Where in some ways you don't even have to think about it. know, like you just, I have found that to be very peaceful sometimes at the end of the day. just settled into a very familiar, very well-known, often usually very simple meditative, or a solo game. It's usually often like a solo card game, because those are the really quick, easy ones to set up. Kevin (30:27.768) Mm-hmm. Kevin (30:40.226) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:47.138) put on some kind of peaceful instrumental music in the background and just, I'm not really thinking. It's just this state of being and existing and it feels very meditative at the end of a day. Yeah. So I really like that. Kevin (30:57.646) of flow. I got some great choices for that and that's my favorite thing of solo gaming is those games that are just old friends and you're like, you're gonna deal this card to me this time, okay. Let see I'm gonna do about that. Hey there. Yeah, and I don't worry too much about winning or losing, I mean wanna win, but it's not, I've won enough in the past that it's more of a curiosity. Daniel (31:06.082) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (31:13.802) Yeah, yeah. Hey there, friend. Friend game. Yeah, hey, friend card. Kevin (31:27.726) where I think that's the meditative nature of it. You're let's see what happens when I play this time. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Daniel (31:32.002) If I do this, yeah, yeah. And some games I think are designed specifically to be meditative practices. Like I'm thinking specifically like a gentle rain is a really popular solo game right now that's designed to be more of an act of meditation. Kevin (31:38.094) Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Kevin (31:45.71) Although that is one I like to play with another person, just because there's that joy discovery. Yeah, you just each take a turn. And because it's meditative, you can almost chit-chat about things. Like, you don't really have to talk about what you're doing, but you're both watching to see, like, oh, oh, we got the yellow lily pad. So yeah, that's a good one. It's a good one. I'm with you, meditative. Yeah. This is a similar bit. Daniel (31:48.726) Really? That's cool. That's cool. I like that. Daniel (31:58.358) Yeah, yeah. Mmm. Daniel (32:07.437) That's cool. That's cool. Kevin (32:14.922) From earlier, but with the solo game you can take your time or not So if you want to stop and go you to sandwich you don't have to coordinate with others You don't have to try to take your bath. I'll kind of take in the bathroom break in a way that doesn't Make everyone have to wait type thing or mess up the flow of the game Yeah, I mean you can just kind of do what you want when you want with the solo game if you want to start the whole thing over I mean, it's just a real freedom with that. That's awesome. Yeah Daniel (32:18.53) Hmm. Daniel (32:28.566) Yeah, that's up to everyone else. Yeah. Daniel (32:39.862) That is really nice. They, you know, sometimes in the board game world, you'll hear of this phrase. I know, know, Kevin, but if I listen to it, haven't heard it before called analysis paralysis, this idea of like, you're thinking so much about your next turn that just takes a really long time analysis paralysis. And everyone around the table is like saying, Kevin (32:57.836) Yeah, or you have so many options you really can't decide what to do. Yeah, you're just like overwhelmed with choices. Daniel (33:01.962) Right, right. And that can be so annoying and frustrating to people around the table. But if there aren't any other people around the table, you can take as long as you want to to think about your next move. And it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (33:11.886) There is no AP when you're solo gaming. Daniel, did I ever tell you that way back in high school I took a very particular advanced placement class, AP class? It was an AP class in analysis paralysis, actually. was an AP and AP. AP, it was, it was, yeah. Daniel (33:23.266) I don't think so. Was it AP, AP? That's amazing. How did you do? Kevin (33:34.924) Well, I never finished the final exam, which means I got an A plus in the class, but I got no credit. Daniel (33:44.31) You were the star student! The first person to turn in the final FAIL! Kevin (33:46.158) I still have the textbook. The book is still open on my desk. Daniel (33:58.123) You Kevin (33:58.551) I'm stupid. For our international listeners that may, yeah. It's still, it's still that certain. Daniel (34:02.85) We still we still don't know who had the highest grade in the class cuz it's still an open question years later Daniel (34:13.83) Hahaha! Put it on your tombstone. It's still thinking. Kevin (34:18.126) Still thinking, still thinking. Final score and there's just a dash like waiting. Computing. Daniel (34:29.311) I love that you took APAP. That's great. Kevin (34:30.134) Yes, yes. It was good. It was a really good class. I learned some things, but some things I didn't never got to because we didn't finish. Daniel (34:39.586) Well, that's because I think actually I forgot about that, but I read about the advanced placement analysis, paralysis classes in the Associated Press. It was an AP about AP AP. It was great. Kevin (34:51.436) You Kevin (35:01.134) What? no. Daniel (35:01.331) And you know what I was doing while I was reading it? I was eating a pea! I was eating a pea. No, was just like a little vegetable. I was eating a pea while reading a pea about a pea a pea. Yeah, it was great. It was not a very satisfying lunch, however. Kevin (35:08.384) Eating a what? Kevin (35:17.196) Yeah. What a beautiful world, the seagulls in house. I'm riffing on the fact that it's such a beautiful world that we can make dumb jokes like this. It's part of the beautiful world that we live in. Yeah, so we've got two more benefits of solo gaming that we've sketched out. And so number siete is... Daniel (35:32.552) It's a beautiful world. It is a beautiful world. Yeah. Daniel (35:40.502) Yes, yes. Yes, is just that it's good. It's a good way just to learn to like your own company. This is my final benefit of solo gaming. It's just a good way to come to like yourself, just to get to know. I don't want to say like yourself, but that's ultimately the goal, but just to get to know yourself better. It's a cliche, but it's true. You're going to spend more time. Kevin (35:50.786) Hmm Mm-hmm. Kevin (36:00.342) Yeah. Daniel (36:09.504) with yourself obviously than anyone else in the world. And so if you figure out a way to like yourself and enjoys just spending time with yourself, that's going to serve you well in life. And so doing something like this I think can help you just feel more comfortable with alone time, I think. Kevin (36:21.634) Yeah, yeah. The Kevin (36:30.094) Mm-hmm. I think so. Now the flip side of that is there was a period of my life where I got so into the board gaming and collecting and stuff that I was doing too much of that. I was doing too much of getting new games and playing them solo and so it ended up, know, Jenny could tell, my wife Jenny was like, you know, I'm not sure this actually puts you in a good mood. So I was almost a compulsive solo gamer and after I was, you know, I was like, Daniel (36:43.02) Yeah. Daniel (36:52.386) Hmm. That's a good point. Yeah. Kevin (37:00.056) think you're right. So sometimes solo gaming, if it's a substitute, I don't know, if you're wanting to socialize, and I'm a pretty social person, like I don't know, solo gaming can sometimes rub your face in it of like, you know, maybe I should just go to the brewery or go see what some friends are doing. Like, would I rather hang out with people or play a game? And at one point I was like, I got a game, because I got this game I got to play, I don't want to figure it out. But I think it was actually making me unhappy. But it's me. Daniel (37:19.159) Right. Daniel (37:28.299) Yeah, that's a good point. Kevin (37:29.496) That's not you, that's me being more of an extrovert and being a pretty social person and having no concept of social anxiety. I got other anxieties, but the social anxiety, you know? So I enjoy talking to people and gaming and things, so yeah, that's the one. One thing solo gaming taught me is that I have to be careful of solo gaming. Daniel (37:40.418) You Daniel (37:50.626) That's a really good point. Yeah, it can be Kevin (37:51.95) because I can get too deep into it and then I'm like... Daniel (37:56.021) It can be isolating to an extent that it's unhealthy or unhelpful. Kevin (37:58.318) campaign. Kevin (38:01.974) If it's contrary to your particular wiring as a human being. you're more... It can be detrimental if it's encouraging you to... Yeah, because at least... Like, yeah. Video games online, if you're doing it with other people, you're at least interacting in a way that is solo gaming. It's really just you. So, just make sure that meets your mental state. Yeah. Daniel (38:05.056) Right, right. It could be detrimental to your own wiring. Daniel (38:15.552) Yeah, I like that. Daniel (38:24.257) Right. Daniel (38:29.314) Yeah, in our in our previous house, I miss that we had to arrange the layout was in such a way that we had I could fit the big gaming table in the same room as our main television. And and so often in the evening, I would do solo gaming at the gaming table while some other members of my family would watch TV. And and that kind of felt like a little bit of a nice hybrid, you know, like I was I was solo gaming, but I was still Kevin (38:50.894) Mmm. Kevin (38:57.272) test. Daniel (38:59.264) we could still have conversations together. They were watching TV. could watch a little, you know, what they were watching too. And we were just, you know, we, it solo gaming, but I wasn't alone. We don't quite have that arrangement in this, in our current house, but yeah, that was nice. Kevin (39:05.506) And it's nice. Kevin (39:12.418) I wish I had the bespoke, and I may get one at some point, but the nice fancy board game table that's also a dining room table. That's really the way to go. Because it's probably going to be in a good location. It's not in your right central to the home. It's near the kitchen. Daniel (39:17.728) Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Daniel (39:25.666) Yeah, I like that. You're not off in some corner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Kevin (39:29.87) Yeah, you know, in the corner, or like, I have this board game table that a friend built that does the job, but it's in the basement. So yeah, you're kind of stuck in a corner. So yeah, I like that idea of putting the board game table somewhere more central. Daniel (39:39.19) Yeah. Kevin (39:47.67) Right. And the final bit I'll throw in here for benefits of solo gaming. It's just a nice activity when you want something that's, I don't know, this is the embarrassment of riches that we live in in times in countries such as ours where we have so many things to do with our time. We could watch TV, we could read a book, you can mess around on the internet. Sometimes you want something a little more interactive than a TV show, but maybe not so much of reading the Daniel (40:13.793) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:18.092) Analysis paralysis textbook, so you kind of want something a little more engaging than television, but not necessarily I don't know. If it's a solo game that meets that sweet spot of a comforting friend, it's kind of like doing the crossword or something. It's just a nice way to spend your time. It's sort of a niche semi-activity is what I'd almost call it, if it's a game that you know. It uses like half my brain, yeah. Versus like reading something difficult or studying or writing a sermon or something is gonna use a lot more of my brain power. Daniel (40:37.527) Yeah. Daniel (40:45.492) It is a, it's a niche semi activity. like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (40:53.312) Right. Daniel (40:56.758) I like that, I like that. It reminds me that our daughter just recently taught a class on crochet at our church. She was interning, but then she also got on to teach fiber arts to like all of us in the family. And so she's recently, she's teaching me knitting. And I just, it's so cool to just sit there. Kevin (40:58.699) thanks. Kevin (41:06.861) Hmm? Kevin (41:16.526) You Kevin (41:20.526) to meet. Daniel (41:22.93) at the end of the day while the family's watching TV and I'm watching TV too, but I'm also knitting, right? And it's very, it's a niche semi-activity, like you said. Yeah, yeah. It was cool. Kevin (41:27.458) Mm-hmm. Good for you. We did macrame in middle school, and I remember really enjoying it. Did you do macrame? It's kind of yarn, weaving, and we'd put around clothes hangers. Daniel (41:35.36) Yeah, I never did. Kevin (41:43.522) enjoyed it. Daniel (41:44.438) That's cool. That's cool. It sounds like, yeah, something very similar. Kevin (41:47.842) I think it's French for macrame. I'm not real sure. Yeah. Daniel (41:50.85) That makes sense. Did they have? He was there. He had there. I was no nevermind. We're moving on. I was gonna make a bad joke again. Let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah, so Kevin (42:01.068) Napoleon? Okay. Good, good, Top five games. Daniel (42:09.152) So yes, we're going to end with a top five solo games. And Kevin and I have not seen each other's list. So if you, dear listeners, are looking for potential solo games you could play, here are five suggestions, five of our favorites. Five favorites for Kevin, five favorites for me. And yeah, we're excited to share them. And do you have an honorable mention before we get to the top five? Ooh, I only have one. Kevin (42:35.118) I have two actually. One that's gonna make people angry. Daniel (42:38.956) please go with your first one and I'll share mine. Kevin (42:42.846) My first one is Mage Knight. It's a hard game and it's a lot of setup, but it's cool. It's cool. And it has a tempo to it. And if you can get the tempo, you can win. And yeah, Mage Knight's good, but it's hard. Daniel (42:57.996) Some people think that's like one of the best games ever, It's supposed to be a great game. Kevin (43:01.878) It's a cool game. It's Flada Chavado. That's the American slang of his name. It's not correct how you pronounce it. But yes, he's a genius. Codenames and... Yeah, no, and you get spells and you conquer different little castles. But there's a lot of rules you have to remember about, like, whether it's day or night and the way it impacts stuff. And yeah, there's a lot of cool things going on in there. Yeah, so Mage Knight is a fond memory. Daniel (43:10.496) And it's got like miniatures and maps and everything. Daniel (43:30.786) I like it, I like it. Well, I only have one. Kevin (43:32.77) But I'm probably not going to set it up and do it again, to be honest. It's just a lot to construct. Daniel (43:37.795) That's the impression again. Well, I only have one honorable mention, but it kind of is representative of everything I want to share, which is I guess all of my solo games are like really, they're like all really like easy to set up. They're just like really, they're just very simple setup games, like five minutes or less. My honorable mention is Coffee Roaster. Coffee Roaster is a game Kevin (43:54.343) Mm-hmm. Exactly. Kevin (44:02.517) Hmm. Daniel (44:07.03) by I think a designer named Hayashi and out of, I'm sorry, Sashi and Sashi, I believe out of Japan. I apologize for getting that wrong. Yeah, think the name of company is Sashi and Sashi. Coffee Roaster is this really fun game. It's a bag builder, which means the mechanism is you're adding things to a bag and then you're drawing things out of the bag. And in this case, you're adding different Kevin (44:32.974) Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:36.802) coffee beans into a bag and then you're pulling out the coffee beans and you're trying to achieve this perfect cup of coffee. It's been a while since I've played it, but I really like Coffee Roaster. It's a fun solo bag building game that you can, and also almost all of my games, except for one, you can knock out in half an hour. And this is, this is one of them. Yeah. Kevin (44:52.526) Hmm. Kevin (44:59.64) Wow, good for you, good for you. My other honorable mention that I think will annoy some people because they really love it, I do like it, but I think it, for me, was a kind of, once you've played it, you've played it, and that's Final Girl. It's really fun, it's great, I really like it, and I get some of the allure of there's all these different modules, so different scenarios you can play and buying them, but I don't know, like I have two of them and it's enough, and I don't know that I'll play it again. But I really like it, it's great, but some people, I mean, it's, they keep making new ones, so they're obviously playing or collecting them. But Final Curl's neat. Daniel (45:37.388) So you think that people, yeah, are you worried that people are gonna be annoyed because, Kevin (45:43.286) I they would, I think they would have thought I'd rank it higher. Yeah. That's the annoyance. It's like, it's a snub to Final Girl because that's such a popular game. Daniel (45:48.394) Okay, okay, I see, I see. Daniel (45:55.074) people love it. hear a lot of good things about it. Kevin (45:58.38) It's awesome, it's great, I really, but I don't know that I'm gonna play it again after you've done it a few times. You're like, okay, I get it, it's neat. There's kind of a shtick, right, of... Daniel (46:10.146) Well, like a good honorable mention. right. Number five, my number five solo game of all time for me at this moment is I've heard it pronounced a couple of different ways, but I usually call it Onirum or Onirum. It is just a deck of cards. And you Kevin (46:12.536) Yes. Number five. Kevin (46:22.284) Redacted. Kevin (46:29.303) Okay. Daniel (46:39.99) The art is really cool and it's funky. It's very dream-like, art. And it goes along well with the theme of the game, is kind of, the theme is hard to wrap one's head around also, but you're in this dreamscape and you're trying to kind of get out of the dream and get these doors to get out of this dreamscape. But then you're collecting keys to open up doors. And it's just this solo game. It does involve a lot of shuffling. Some people don't like it because you have to shuffle the deck again and again and again and again. But I don't mind it. I really like Onirum. And then there's been a lot of spin-offs off of it, a of sequels to it from the same designer. But I think they are all in the Oniverse. Yeah, yeah. Are you familiar with Onirum? Kevin (47:22.414) think i have a spin-off yes still the inner something is the final don't know an iron but i have to fire one still something so so fion so so best or anyway it's like will fire creatures yeah Daniel (47:30.886) yeah, yeah, so, so, so yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and I was one of my very first games. I just played it like crazy. It's a good game. So an Irem. Kevin (47:43.611) Aww. And it's solo, only? Yeah, solo. Daniel (47:46.516) It's solo only, solo only. Well, like all of these, there may be like an alternate mode for like two players, but I shouldn't say all of them, but like many of these. I think almost everyone plays it solo mostly. Kevin (47:58.582) Mm-hmm. Mm. Gotcha. Well, my number five, after saying that about Mage Knight and Final Girl, here is a game that I will take the time to set up, and that is Nemesis, which is the alien... They don't call it alien, but it's the alien movie, basically. And what's great about it, even solo, is you explore the ship and some of the rooms, it's always randomized. So exploring the ship and you know like somewhere is the nest for the queen and it probably won't be bad if you find it, but it could be bad. Wandering around with this timer and your goal is to explore the ship and either set it to self-destruct and get in an escape pod or make sure it's set for Earth and then go back into cryo sleep and you're going to trigger the aliens to pop out and you have to decide whether you fight them or run away and it's just a great game. It's just a great game. And it's a great solo game. But then you play it with people, it's even better. It's a better game with others, but it's a great solo game. Daniel (48:59.842) It sounds really good. I've heard. Yeah. Daniel (49:09.634) And the solo game comes, solo mode is built into it. It's not like some fan made. Kevin (49:15.01) Well, you just play one character. You can just play one, I think. Or you could play two people. You could play two as co-op. That's all, but... wait, yeah. And the final bit, if you try to go into the cryo-sleep, you have to make one final roll to see if you trigger an alien. And I have lost it on that final roll after two hours of playing. But thematically, you know, that's a horror movie, right? Daniel (49:15.682) he's played one. I see, I see, Yeah. I've heard good things about that game. Daniel (49:37.648) no. no. Daniel (49:43.426) Mm-hmm. Kevin (49:44.276) you the monster pops out and you die anyway so you know it's like a painful loss but it's part of the fun yeah Daniel (49:52.129) It's It's interesting both Final Girl and Nemesis deal with kind horror movie themes. That they're just like this kind of a way of experiencing that thrill of a horror movie on your own kind of. Yeah, that's neat. I gotta try that game. I've heard good things about it. I'd like to try it. Kevin (49:57.475) Yeah. Kevin (50:05.123) Mm-hmm. play it sometime. Yeah, it's fun when I do. Daniel (50:10.81) I our games are really, I love both of our lists. feel like our games are, there's a good deal of contrast between our lists. I don't think there'll be any overlap because I'm not sure there's more of a contrast. I'm sure there is, but there's a large contrast between, difference between Nemesis and my next one, is Orchard. And Orchard, do you know Orchard? Kevin (50:21.134) think we're going to be different on these, yeah. Kevin (50:37.229) But somehow I don't think there are alien monsters in it. Daniel (50:41.876) No, think Orchard is my most played game ever, I think, in my BG stats, in my board game stats. I think I've played it over 60 times, but it is, it's again, just a deck of cards. And what's cool is you even divide the deck into half and set aside the other half of the deck for the next game. So you already have your next game set up. It's a deck of cards and dice. Kevin (50:46.162) I don't know this at all. Kevin (50:52.888) Well... Daniel (51:08.722) And you're just trying to, one of my favorite mechanisms is you are overlapping cards on the table to kind of build up a map sort of, where I love that mechanism where a deck of cards, the cards also act as like tiles in a map too, like you're kind of like building it up. And you're just trying to grow an orchard. Kevin (51:28.296) Hmm. Daniel (51:34.985) And if you put an apple tree on top of another apple tree, then you put a dice there to show that you've got with the ones, the pip one pip up on the red die to show you've got one apple there. And if you put another red die on top of it, a red apple tree on top of it, another card, then you flip it to the three. And so the more you stack the same kind of tree card on top of each other, the higher the value of the die on top of it. And I think you've got like You've got like, I think, three types of fruit trees that you're trying to grow. 15 minutes. So quick, but so fun. And then, like I said, you've got the other half of the deck you use that can instantly play another game. I love Orchard. Like I said, my most played game ever. And then, at the very end, there's the option to go into cryo sleep. Kevin (52:12.664) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (52:28.014) this on up? I don't know that. Daniel (52:35.532) to try to avoid the aliens that come out of the apple tree. I didn't realize that until now. I think, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Anyway. Kevin (52:38.862) think they stole that from Nemesis, but it really works. really works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's alright. Everything's a remix. It's okay. Well, my number four, and I have such fond memories of it, and it's actually, I'm going to name two games, but they're very similar, Hatred's Wall or The Anarchy, both by the great designer Bobby Hill. And there is a way to play it with others, and it would be meditative, and you can, but most everyone's playing it solo. It's kind of like a homework type. It's a roll and ride or a flip and write game. And I'm, I've just had so many, it's just fun. It's just a great game, especially cause there's a solo campaign for both of them that gives you different challenges. So that keeps it from getting stale. So there's, it's a playground. There's lots of things you can do. Like in Hadrian's wall, you're building your wall and you can then invest in certain things like a, you can have circus fights and. gladiator fights and the kind of stuff. But you can't do it all, so have to pick. And the campaign will force you to do parts of the game that you probably have never tried before. Because you figured out a strategy that kind of works. And the solo starts messing with it. Because it's like, in this one, you can't do that. it's just fun. It's just great. Especially if you're like me and you enjoy a cigar. to set up outside and have a cigar. And the game, once you've got it set up, is probably about 45 minutes. And that's about a cigar, a normal-sized cigar. They do vary in size and how much time you have. But yeah, it's just such a relaxing moment to do that. The Anarchy is similar. It's a different setting. It's harder, and it's got some newer concepts, but very similar game. And I'm very... Daniel (54:12.898) Yeah, okay. Okay, okay. Kevin (54:36.142) of Hadrian's Wall because it really made me a better board gamer. It really taught me to strategize. Everything I'm doing needs to be leading to victory. And that seemed so obvious, but somehow I did not realize the depths of what that really meant. Till I got my butt handed to me over and over and over again in that game, and you just cannot mist up, and it's so good. Hadrian's Daniel (54:46.562) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (55:01.674) I think as you've said in previous episodes, know, it's so oftentimes for the games and there's nothing wrong with this. There's just the appeal of like, I want to try this new thing. I want to try this new thing. And all of that's great. But it's not necessarily geared toward winning the game. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (55:16.908) No, and that's how I game for so long. I was like, I want to try this because it seems awesome. You can do that as an experienced gamer. You just have to know what you're doing. Like if I do this, then my strategy must go this direction. Daniel (55:26.742) Yeah. Daniel (55:31.53) Hadrian Wall is a great, I haven't tried anarchy, but Kristen and I, my wife and I have tried, have played Hadrian's Wall a lot, two player and really love it. I've never tried it as solo. That sounds like, sounds great. I bet that's wonderful. Kevin (55:33.517) love that game. Kevin (55:43.887) Yeah, and the campaign, which is available online, is great, because it'll give you certain win conditions, as well as it may rule out, like, you cannot use this section of the game in this particular scenario. Yeah, that's a great one. What is your number three, Daniel? Daniel (55:48.598) That's so cool. Daniel (56:01.423) My number three is probably the heaviest of all of mine. It's still a five minute setup. And it's a very new game. Man, I love it. I really like this game a lot. It's very new. And it's not designed for, it's not only solo, it's designed for multiplayer as well. It's Vantage, this new game by Jamie Stegmeier, out of Stonemaier Games. Kevin (56:03.182) Ahem. Kevin (56:29.08) jealous. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (56:30.92) I love this game. It's so good. Again, this is the heaviest game for sure of all the ones on my list. But even saying that, it's not super heavy and it's remarkable how quick you can set it up. You set it up really in five minutes. You truly can just set up in five minutes. Strangely, the take down, putting it away actually takes longer than setting it up. the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (56:35.086) Jamie. Kevin (56:57.174) Every board game, it's either going to be one or the other or both. Yeah. Daniel (57:01.154) But it's just a great game. is... It was largely inspired, Jamie Stegmar, the designer, has said, you know, by like Zelda Breath of the Wild, you know, this game where you're kind of open world exploration. And it just feels like that. I've played... I know you and I have talked about other board games that have tried to simulate that open world exploration. And it's been fine. The others have been fine too. But I think this one, for me, achieves that better than... Kevin (57:17.912) That's awesome. Daniel (57:31.144) any other board game I've experienced. just, feel like you're exploring this world and it really feels so sandboxy. You can just go, you can do anything. I can go in this direction, this direction, that direction. I can go underground. I can build an airship and fly over the, and not, yeah, yeah. I maybe gave a little bit of a spoiler there, I'm sorry. Now that doesn't mean it's aimless. You are given specific mission at the very beginning. Kevin (57:38.125) Hmm. Kevin (57:47.0) Are you serious? That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (57:58.477) Mm-hmm. Daniel (58:00.667) and win conditions and then you can achieve other win conditions as you go on. So if you're one that really wants direction, you can go with that direction. You can totally focus on that as well. But if you're like we were saying earlier, somebody just likes to say, hey, I want to see what happens when I do this. You can do that too. And it's still really fun. It's a great, it's a really, and I have loved playing it solo. It's a really fun solo game. Vantage, brand new this year. Yeah. Kevin (58:03.181) Mm-hmm. Kevin (58:09.966) Mm-hmm. Kevin (58:22.978) Hmm. Yay. I have not, I'm jealous. I have not been able to play that. It's so great. My, yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to. Number three, Frostpunk. Frostpunk is so good. In fact, I've been thinking about it recently and need to set it up. It's a lot to set up. It's a big audacious game. It's another Adam Kupinski game who also did Nemesis. Daniel (58:33.228) We'll have to play it next time we're together. Daniel (58:40.226) Frostbite. Kevin (58:53.742) and he's great designer. Yeah, yeah. And it's based on a video game, actually, Frostpunk. And my sons have played it. They said that the board game is harder than the video game. But yeah, it's just mercilessly hard. You're trying to survive and you basically, you just gotta be, I don't know, you've gotta, your actions tend to almost make you lose the game, but you must do that in order to win the game. Daniel (58:54.051) really? didn't know that. okay. Daniel (59:04.66) Okay, okay. Kevin (59:23.662) because if you just bounce along, you will die. So it's like this post-apocalyptic setting where there's a community and you're trying to survive with this cool big tower that's on the table. yeah, it's just really, it's just tough. Like you have to make hard decisions and yeah, that's a really fun game. And you can play that with people. It's almost like a committee for your different characters, but you're deciding together what to do. Daniel (59:34.156) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (59:51.682) Okay. Sure, sure. Kevin (59:51.798) And I don't mean that in an ugly sense of committee, just yeah, yeah. A committee with a fun committee, so yeah. Daniel (59:59.044) How long do you, I'm sorry, did you say how long a game takes typically on? Yeah. Kevin (01:00:02.548) It's a good two hours and the set up's probably good 30 minutes or so. Something like 15 to 20. So yeah, it's a long game, but it's fun. It's really fun to see it develop. Daniel (01:00:11.938) And like you said, like solo games, you're not in anyone's timetable. You can step aside, step away from it for a while, come back to it. Kevin (01:00:18.38) Yeah, you could go take a break and play it tomorrow and stuff. problem is you kind of forget sometimes what you were scheming. If it's a complicated game where you had a strategy, you may forget something was going on. Daniel (01:00:22.134) Yeah. Okay. Okay. Daniel (01:00:31.638) You're naming all these wonderful games I've heard about that I want to try some. I, people sure seem to love Frostpunk too. Yeah. Kevin (01:00:37.25) Yeah, Frostpunk is great. It's a good one. What's your number two? Daniel (01:00:41.578) My number two, again, huge contrast. I think this Frostpunk is a really big box, isn't it? It's a really big box and heavy. My number two is just about the size of a thick credit card. It's Sprawlopolis. Buttonshy, a game company, makes games. This is their specialty. call them, I think they call them pocket games or... Kevin (01:00:48.916) It is a big box, yeah. Kevin (01:01:00.556) Well well boys. Daniel (01:01:10.134) Button chai games but they're basically these games that come in a little wallet the size of a credit card you can just put in your pocket and I think by far I shouldn't say by far, but I think the most popular game is sprawlopolis and I love sprawlopolis. It's really really clever and fun super quick setup Virtually no setup. Yeah, you've played this before too in Yeah Kevin (01:01:29.112) Virtually no setup, I mean. i have a terrible at it need to watch someone play cousin i do i i just i think i'm missing something like how to do it Daniel (01:01:39.299) No, I'm bad at it too. I'm with you. Maybe about a half an hour to play, 20 to 30 minutes to play. 18 cards. It's just 18 cards. Again, like I said earlier, you're putting the cards down on the table to form a map of a city. You're kind of overlapping in different zones. But I think what's the genius of this game is that on the back of the 18 cards, there are 18 unique scoring conditions and at the beginning of the game you randomly draw out three cards and put them scoring condition side up and set them off to the side so that in every game there's this unique combination of scoring conditions so that every game is different like what your objectives are the combination of objectives that will generate points for you is different every game Kevin (01:02:09.166) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:02:38.978) and then you're trying to beat a certain score that's generated by doing some math at the end of the game. But, oh, this is another game I've played a lot. I really like Sparlopolis. It's a lot of fun. And you can buy these button shy games for like 12 bucks from the website or something like that. They're really cheap. Great travel games. Yeah. That's my number two. Kevin (01:02:52.472) That's much love. Kevin (01:02:56.696) Yeah. Throw it in a bag. Very easy to take with you. Yeah. It's a great travel game. Yeah. That's awesome. Number two. My number two is really any, I'm going to say just about any Garfield game. And they, Shem Phillips is famous for doing great solo design. And if you are into his games and you track it, you can even see the evolution of how he's even made it simpler and simpler. how he comes up with mechanisms to, and as well as, almost wonder if he's thinking of the game in terms of solo as he designs the whole game, because then the solo is maybe two decks of cards for some of them. But that's enough, and then some of the components, that's enough to provide a challenge to the puzzle of the game. So yeah, I especially love Viscounts. That's one of, I'm in a minority there, although I think the Brothers Murph, Daniel (01:03:42.306) Yeah. Kevin (01:03:55.182) I've also kind of agreed like they love I Counts of the West Kingdom. So that's just a really fun one where it's kind of a what is it Rondel? What do call it Rondo Rondel? Yeah, so you're going around the castle and you can storm it and you can do different paths. So that's just a great one. And the solo is great for that. Circadian's First Light is another Garfield game. And that is Sam McDonald's design. And that has a great solo mode for it as well. So yeah, the Garfield is always going to put a great Daniel (01:04:02.391) Rondell, yeah, we're going around in a circle, yeah. Kevin (01:04:24.758) solo in there. And again, it's part of the fun is seeing how they solve the solo issue, how he comes up with a way to make it as simple to write. So then they're often they take like 20 seconds. So instead of having to do a lot of stuff, it'll do a few things, but it's iconography. And so once they do this, this, and this, and then you're done. And then it's your turn again. Minimum upkeep, yeah. Daniel (01:04:27.842) That's great. Daniel (01:04:32.406) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (01:04:39.84) Okay, okay. Daniel (01:04:50.764) Minimum upkeep, yeah. It's interesting you talk about how it evolved. Yeah, solo games really have evolved. Anyway, but yes, you can tell a lot of thought has gone into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My number one is a game I just recently came across, bought the intro version of it, fell in love with it, and then bought the deluxe version of it, which is still really cheap, relatively speaking. Kevin (01:04:54.296) What's your number? huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because people expect the end, the standards are high. So yeah. Daniel (01:05:20.448) And that is Puzzle Dungeon. Puzzle Dungeon. This is a game you can only get off of Etsy. It's really, yeah, this is a designer, I think he's out of Ohio, Brian Garber, I think his name is, where he's designed this card game called Puzzle Dungeon where you have... Kevin (01:05:30.99) so awesome. Daniel (01:05:48.419) a row of monsters, four rows of monsters that are coming to you and you can only attack the ones in the front and you have a unique hero for each game that you draw and that changes the rules somehow. Either for your benefit or for your disadvantage and that's the puzzle, trying to figure out how to use your special benefit or how to work around the disadvantage to try to... You can only attack the monsters in the front and you attack them by... using these basically matching cards, cards that are both in your hand and in a row in front of you called the arsenal that you can only interact with in a certain way. And if you, each hero has its own unique target monsters that it wants to eliminate. And if it eliminates those, you win the game. It's just so great. again, this is the one I mentioned there beginning that I was so, and I am still so bad at this. I lose much more than I win, but I feel like I've gotten better a little bit as I played it. One of the things I love about it, as well as if you get the deluxe set from Etsy, there are like 400 unique heroes in that game and tons of different monsters. Daniel (01:07:15.834) I literally feel like I could like play this game every day for the rest of my life and I would never have the same game experience. Right, because every hero changes the rules somehow and every monster, when you defeat it, gives you a special benefit. And so the puzzle is trying to figure out how to interlock the unique rule bending of your hero with the unique benefits. Kevin (01:07:21.132) and it doesn't have a similar feel with the mechanics and everything. Kevin (01:07:28.942) Hmm. Kevin (01:07:36.504) Wow. Yeah. Daniel (01:07:44.288) that the monsters give you as you defeat them in the right combination of ways. It takes 15 to 30 minutes. It's hard. By golly, I love this game. It's just great. Puzzle Dungeon is my number one. Kevin (01:07:49.036) Right, the question of timing. Kevin (01:07:59.03) One thing people probably don't realize as designer, some games like Veil of Eternity and other things, it feels like, it's just these cards and monsters. But what they've really done, they've done a lot of work to design interesting combos and ways they interact. And you don't see that, you just see the cards. But when you play these games and you're looking, you appreciate the fact, like you're saying, that the game is so well done. Daniel (01:08:13.302) Yes. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Kevin (01:08:24.706) Like he's come up with ways to break rules and then that has an impact on the monsters and things. Yeah, that's awesome. Daniel (01:08:31.308) Yeah, so much thought, so much thought goes into these games, yeah. How about you, what's your number one? Kevin (01:08:38.242) My number one, it's a little predictable. I'm such a boring human being, but it's gotta be Legacy of You, another Garfield game. I know, it's so good, it's so good. So what's great about that is it's a solo game, but it's a campaign game as well. So the game, it's a little frustrating, but it will auto respond to your victory or loss. And when I've played it, the first go round, I always lose. I've played it through. Daniel (01:08:41.932) No, you're- That's not, that's wonderful. That makes sense. Daniel (01:09:02.306) Kevin (01:09:07.662) three or four times. I'm sure there are some folks that could win it, but it's almost like you're intended to lose it because then it's gonna give you a power that will help you later. So if you lose, you get things to help you, and then if you win, you get harder enemies to fight. So by the end, the game is really fine-tuned to your ability. And it's just really fun. It's very explosive, and you're recruiting people to help you, but... Daniel (01:09:16.578) okay, okay. Daniel (01:09:30.252) How clever. Yeah. Kevin (01:09:37.282) but you can dismiss them to get extra stuff. what I like, and Shem Phillips does this with Raiders of Scythia too, it gets really explosive by the end. Because at the end, you don't need to keep recruiting them because the game's ending anyway. So you really can just go all in and just throw them all away and get all these massive resources and just clear out the barbarians and it feels great. So yeah. Yeah. Daniel (01:09:47.714) Mmm. Daniel (01:09:55.361) I see. Daniel (01:10:03.682) That sounds, that does sound great. Kevin (01:10:04.728) So you keep them, you keep them, you keep using these people, and then you kind of let them die, guess, thematically, which is kind of bad. Daniel (01:10:13.324) Or maybe they retire. Do they retire? Kevin (01:10:16.238) Sure, we'll say they retire. They retire to the dirt. I don't know. Maybe they do retire. Daniel (01:10:23.846) Jordan lent me his copy of this and I really enjoyed it as well. I don't think I ever got to the point that you're talking about it, just kind of seeing how it kind of hums under the engine, but it sounds, I really enjoy playing it too. That's a great choice for your top solo game. Kevin (01:10:38.298) Thanks. It's probably a 50-minute game once you're really down with the rules. To me, it's a comfortable old friend. just pull it out and see what's going to happen. Daniel (01:10:45.91) Yeah, yeah. I love it. love it. Well, I think we gave our listeners some. Yeah, hopefully listeners, you can find some game in there that you might like to play solo. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, next episode, we are it's going to be a guest episode. looking forward to talking with Jade Rogers, who's the director of the House of Afros, Capes and Curls in Omaha, Nebraska, about. Kevin (01:10:49.57) Yeah, yeah, good stuff, good stuff. All right, Daniel. Kevin (01:10:57.976) gave them some mills for their grist. Kevin (01:11:05.035) next episode. Daniel (01:11:17.292) about the house and it's going to be exciting. We hope you can tune in for that. But until then. Kevin (01:11:18.808) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that house is there to encourage the subculture of people of color who enjoy geek-type experiences, gaming and role-playing and cosplay and that kind of stuff. So yeah, this can be really interesting. Daniel (01:11:36.972) Yeah, yeah. In her interviews, she has talked about the importance early on for her of creating a place where it felt safe, in her words, it felt safe to be black and nerdy at the same time. just, and how cool was that? Yeah, yeah. So. Kevin (01:11:48.846) Yeah. How cool is that? And it's true, because when you go to a board game convention, it is very white. It's less male in my experience than it used to be, but it tends to be lot of white males. And that's great. That's great. You can't help but be who you are. But you are aware and sensitive that there are other people that would like a similar experience, like to not be the only ones or be able to be themselves and not feel so... so overtly the minority and so that's what this sounds like jade rogers and others are doing that's great Daniel (01:12:26.678) Yeah, really looking forward to talking to her next time. Kevin, how can people get a hold of us? Kevin (01:12:32.696) They can get hold of us at the internet and through Instagram at play saves the world or at play saves the world dot. Daniel (01:12:42.562) com.org.org. should really know this by now. Just search for Flaysafe the world and you'll find it. That's right. That's right. Kevin (01:12:43.864) com. Kevin (01:12:48.738) Playsavesaworld.Daniel. Yes, that's right. We're on YouTube and we're an audio podcast. Daniel (01:12:59.862) Yep. And you can email us at playsavestheworldatgmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. Kevin (01:13:04.654) and carrier pigeons report to these coordinates. Three, two, four, six, three. Daniel (01:13:09.354) and carrier pigeons and that's right and mental telepathy that's right that's right Kevin (01:13:16.142) and mental telepathy is available. Say answers. Daniel (01:13:21.762) turn off the lights in your bathroom and say play Save the World three times. Kevin (01:13:24.686) You Kevin (01:13:30.638) you get tired of that, say Bloody Mary three times, then you will exit the game. Candyman. Daniel (01:13:35.166) it's so great to spend time with you, our listeners. Thanks so much for going this foray into solo games with us. And Kevin, as always, fantastic to spend time with you too. Kevin (01:13:46.776) So great, so great, Daniel. Goodbye, everybody.