Daniel (00:03.497) Getting Better at Board Games. On this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation on games and spirituality. Kevin (00:28.59) you Daniel (00:37.299) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:42.059) My name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:44.091) And speaking of getting better at board games, dear listeners, you just made our day better by tuning in. We're so grateful for you being a part of the podcast this morning or evening or night, whenever you're listening to it. And we appreciate your being part of the conversation of. Kevin (01:02.488) Whenever, wherever you are, there we are too. It's just an old self. Daniel (01:05.139) That's right, it's the magic of- It's going back in time. It's an astral projection of, that's right, that's right. Past Kevin and past Daniel. But whatever version of ourselves, it's an honor to spend a few moments with you, listeners and viewers, whatever's going on in your day. So thanks for being a part of the conversation on getting better at board games. Kevin, this is something you and I have talked about before. And if I'm remembering right, neither of us feel like... Kevin (01:11.502) It's just old us, but we're there. Daniel (01:37.679) We are especially good at board games. Is that right? I don't. Kevin (01:41.755) I feel like, I mean, probably the average person off the street. I might be a little better due to experience, but when I go to the board game conventions, I usually lose almost consistently. So compared to my peers, jury of my peers of board game aficionados, yeah, I don't know that I'm that. I'm not terrible. Like I don't get negative. Daniel (01:49.319) Right, Right, right. Daniel (01:58.215) you Kevin (02:09.246) but I'm usually solidly not winning. Daniel (02:12.125) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm right there with you. You said that so well. Yeah, you know, think if I played it with someone, played a game with maybe someone off the streets who's not necessarily into hobby board games or board games, I'd probably do okay. But yeah, if I go up against a fellow hobby board gamer, I lose more than I win, but that's okay. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so. Kevin (02:17.39) Kevin (02:35.822) Right, right. Kevin (02:39.918) And everybody wants to do well. I think that's a main barrier to gaming is people don't want to be embarrassed. Which the truth is any game you don't know, no one expects you to do well. And so really the expectations are very low. Now, if you've been playing it for 10 years, I do expect you to be decent to pretty good at it. But if it's your first time, no one really cares or expects you to just crush it. But a lot of people are like, oh, I don't really want to. They look at the game and they see a lot of stuff and then they panic because of performance anxiety. yeah, I think everybody would like to do better. Nobody wants to come in just dead last, I get that. Daniel (03:11.218) Yeah. Daniel (03:16.83) Yeah. Daniel (03:21.177) Absolutely. Yeah, I tell folks I really and I really do mean this I genuinely don't care. I feel like this is true. Like it doesn't really bother me genuinely whether I win or lose a game. But what I do what does bother me if it's like if it's if it's a blowout, like if I feel like I've like been totally crushed, then that's that's a little bothersome. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (03:39.631) Yes. Yes. Or if you just keep losing, like there's a, you play this game and you always lose. You don't feel like you're getting better. And then I get frustrated. Yeah. I'm like, what is wrong? So yeah, we thought we would throw out some ideas again, not that we're a real, mean, maybe we're the last people to ask, but here's a few thoughts of things of how I have gotten better. Daniel (03:46.409) Yeah. Daniel (03:52.371) That's right. That's right. Yeah. Daniel (04:02.31) That's right. So now that we've established that we're not good at winning your games, we'll dive into it. Kevin (04:08.62) They were not good. Our next episode will be how to get a better golf swing. Something we also don't know about. Daniel (04:14.482) That's right. That's right. Followed by how to do difficult automobile maintenance. That's right. It's a great... It has not stopped a pair of middle-aged men in the past from diving into topics that they speak of. Kevin (04:22.158) Correct mandarin Chinese pronunciations. Yes, yes, exactly. It's nuts. Kevin (04:34.67) Let's be honest, isn't mansplaining a little charming? Just a little. gosh darn it, he's trying. He really is. you Daniel (04:46.984) I feel like you get two middle-aged men together and a podcast pops out. It's just kind of what's there. That's right. It's just kind of what we... That's right. That's right. But having said all of that, it is true though that you and I have both played a lot of games and hobby board gaming is really our passion outside of our family and our work. yeah, and so I don't think we have... Kevin (04:52.846) Exactly, exactly, where they talk about something that they're not really sure about. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (05:12.716) Mm-hmm. Sometimes even more than those things. Daniel (05:16.934) So I don't think we have nothing to say on the subject of getting better at games. Yeah. So, yeah. Kevin (05:19.886) Correct, correct. And I remember, picking a family, this kind of concept first dawned on me when I first met my wife Jenny decades ago and I met her family and we were playing Scrabble together. And I had played Scrabble with my family. I had played it for a long time and we were just kind of, in my family, we were gentlemanly and gentle lady-like in playing where it was like, you got the word. Daniel (05:35.43) Yeah Kevin (05:49.707) spare and you got eight points. I don't remember what the points are for spare but let's just say it's eight points. Good job. And then I'm playing with Jenny's family and they're doing like QI which is a QI right but it's in the dictionary and landing on triple points and getting 32 from two letters and I'm like what in the world is going on because I'd never played Daniel (05:53.436) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (06:02.862) Yeah, all right. Daniel (06:08.56) Right, right. Right, right. Kevin (06:13.998) to win by points, we more of just casually put words down. I'm like, oh, look, my brother won. Oh, that's great. So I realized there's a way of playing that is about optimization. Daniel (06:21.223) Yeah. Daniel (06:28.444) Yeah, yeah, that's a great, a great segue into this. Kevin (06:30.254) and had not been playing Scrabble to win. I'd been playing it as more of a, oh, you came up with a long word, like, or a good, or I hadn't seen that word in a while. So I don't know if you have a, yeah. Do you have a story or experience like that of piercing the veil? Daniel (06:38.94) Yeah, yeah. It's a great point. yeah, well, I mean, just somewhat similar to your story. Yeah, I grew up occasionally playing Scrabble as well. And my mom and her family... We kind of joke about it, but I've talked about this a little bit on the podcast. come from a Mennonite background, both my mom and dad's family were Mennonite. And especially my mom's Mennonite family, we discovered, I think we've kind of come to the conclusion over the years that Mennonites are pacifist and try to find ways to try to kind of rid their lives of... as much aggression as possible. But what we discovered is we think they take their aggression out in board games. the same thing, they play these atom bombs of Scrabble words. They just find a way to get a Q and an X and a Z somehow all on a triple word thing. Yes, yes. Kevin (07:33.806) you Kevin (07:38.254) It's really funny. Kevin (07:44.974) Mm-hmm. Kevin (07:52.248) Yeah, quiz on a triple word and spells another word the other way. And you're just like, what? Daniel (07:56.369) Yeah, yeah, just these massive. So I think I had similar experiences as well. like you said, it kind of opens up your mind to this idea of one of the principles for getting better at board games, which is optimization, which we'll be getting into later on, but just thinking about what maximizes scores. Yeah. Kevin (08:14.99) Although, truth is, I think it's the one best thing. If there's one thing, that is the guiding principles optimization. No matter what the game is, you're always seeking to optimize. Even if it's like chess, where you're, right, like you wanna optimize every move is not wasting it, or it's getting, setting something up so then I can take your bishop or whatever. So yeah, yeah. Daniel (08:22.234) Mm. Mm. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (08:38.672) Right, right. That's good. Well, I think that, I mean, optimization is exactly right. It is kind of, and I think that's predicated on this idea of you start with the end in mind, right? Like you start with the, what are the end win conditions? What's the end scoring condition? And kind of work backwards. Kevin (08:57.324) Yes. Kevin (09:06.934) Mm-hmm. Daniel (09:07.922) There's a theological principle too, that talks about how the world is going to end makes all the difference. But if you kind of have the idea, but that's true for everything. I heard that in church work as well, that if it start with the thought of how do want a person's life to be changed as a result of being involved with your church? And if you kind of start with that goal in mind and work backwards from there, how does... Kevin (09:16.012) Right, right. Kevin (09:20.258) Mm-hmm. Kevin (09:32.781) Hmm. Daniel (09:36.444) how can you work toward it? So same with games. If you start with the end in mind, really understand well the scoring conditions, the win conditions, then that allows you to work backwards and optimize your moves to work toward that goal. Kevin (09:46.319) Yeah, we are purpose-driven creatures and we have goals and purposes and yeah, a game is illustrating that. What is the goal of the game? Okay, I win by player elimination. Okay, how do I eliminate the other players and survive and work back from that? Or I win by points. Okay, how do I make points? Where am I going to generate those? And I've seen my youngest child who's always been good at games. He just lights up like, he's like, okay, I can get 10 points there. Am I thinking I look at that space on the board, I think, well, that seems really hard. I'm not going to go for that because I probably won't get there. But he is gunning for it. He's like, I'm going to go do that. And then he wins because I can get 10 points there. I just got to figure out how to get enough whatever sheep. Pelvis bones. Classic. Daniel (10:24.921) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (10:40.69) Classic, classic Euro game. pelvis bones. You gotta love it. You gotta love it. Kevin (10:42.488) Classic, that's that's uve Rosenberg. Yeah Gotta love it. So I just have to get enough which means I have to do this other thing But if I can chain up my my steps and I stick to that plan then eventually I get to make all those points So yeah, that's the optimization. What is the goal? And how do I get there and how do I build the best? Setup for that So I was playing SETI for the first time the other day, I realized, partly I was thinking about this episode, and SETI's really cool. I've only played it once, but it's neat. But it's one of these games where there are things that let you score end points, right? Like bonus points at the end of the game, and then there are things that are gonna increase your technology. And first in the game, you really wanna build up your technology. You want to build up that engine so then when you take those actions, they give you lots more stuff. And then go for the final scoring towards the end. You can keep an eye on it, but you don't want to pick that till you really know what you've already got, hopefully. Daniel (11:41.0) Mm-hmm. Daniel (11:50.173) Right. Kevin (11:51.279) Because you can pick that scoring early on and it might help you but you might also have to change your plan and then you're not able to, right? So there are things that are going to trigger points at the end of the game. There are things that are going to trigger at the beginning. There's engine building, which is where you're making later actions more awesome. And you really want to optimize that according to the beat of the game, right? The tempo of the game. Which I think is why I'm so bad at Arc Nova. I can never get the tempo right. Like I get the whole game. And I can't even get the things to cross, right? Or barely, because I can't get the timing right of when I'm gonna do stuff. And I need to play it more. Daniel (12:33.18) That brings up a couple other principles, I think, for getting better at games. But before I get to that, just want to ask, SETI, of course, is based on the theme of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. It's kind of the theme of the game. I've heard a lot of good things about it. What did you think of the game? Kevin (12:49.248) No, it's cool. It's cool. It's a very Euro type game. There's things you can do to kind of trigger points and finding the aliens where then you get lots of points and triggers part of the end game. there's like three paths to that. You kind of want to do maybe them all, but you're going to get better at some of them. So this is reminding me of other games already. so, yeah, it's really neat. And how I... Daniel (12:50.929) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (13:18.272) actually ended up winning that game is I had played games like this that my friends had not. So that's a whole other principle too, right, of just game experience. Daniel (13:27.264) yeah, good, good. That is, that is, yes. So I feel like you have brought up three other principles here. No, no, it's great, it's great. You are the, it's true, it's true. No, that's, are you, Kevin (13:35.33) I need stop time. Also the clothes you wear. Kevin (13:44.206) If you look good, you feel good. If you feel good, you win. Daniel (13:47.238) Are you wearing your lucky game shirt right now? that, is that? It's a good shirt. Kevin (13:49.326) I am. It smells awful. I can't wash it. The luck would be washed out. It smells terrible. Correct. Daniel (13:53.353) Well, when you wash it, you wash away the luck. Yeah, that's science. Kevin (14:00.75) So I also win because people want to end the game because I smell terrible. So they rush their turns. Daniel (14:04.664) Get away from Kevin. Get away from me, Kevin. So one principle I heard you talk about is in your discussion of SETI is this idea of kind of keeping track of points, thinking about points and scoring conditions. And that, I think, really speaks to this idea of doing the math, right? That just I've heard it said, and I know it's always true, but by golly, it seems like it's it's often true. Kevin (14:14.392) Mm-hmm. Kevin (14:27.822) night. Daniel (14:35.592) that board games are just math problems dressed up. And I think there's a lot of truth, again, not always true, but it is often true that board games are math problems dressed up, right? And so you're trying to figure out the math that will get you to win the game if it's that kind of game where you're collecting points. And sometimes that's just the most helpful thing you can do. Just sit. Kevin (14:39.918) Mm-hmm. Daniel (15:03.858) for a second and do the math. Think about how many points is this going to get you versus how many points would this get you? And trying to think about what optimizes the most points you're going to get in this math equation that's dressed up as a board game. Yeah. Is that? Yeah. Kevin (15:14.146) Yeah, Yeah, and absolutely, yes. there's part of it is there isn't a common currency like this is valuable now, but less valuable later. And so it's almost like you need a formula in your head, a loose formula of your strategy, because you can't just reduce it all to one number. Right. You know, and so that's part of what makes the game a pleasing puzzle is there's not a dollar sign on this action. Right. Daniel (15:34.632) That is true. That is true. Daniel (15:40.349) Yep. Yep. Yep. An example of that is Kristen, my wife and I, we really enjoyed playing Cascadia. Cascadia is a really fun game that two player, well, no, it's not just two player, but we play a two player tile laying game of kind of the various biomes of the Pacific Northwest and North America. And one of the scoring conditions is Kevin (15:51.47) I'm Daniel (16:10.576) a set of end game scoring conditions based on how you've arranged your animals. But there are other end game scoring conditions as well, like how much terrain you have together and of certain types. So there's a variety of end game scoring conditions. I don't know why I keep doing this, but my strategy for the game is I look at the animal scoring condition that gives the most points, because it's randomized every game. But whatever that is, like maybe one game it's... Kevin (16:22.274) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:35.597) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:39.66) Save the elk. Daniel (16:40.656) the longest line of elk or whatever, yeah. And I will just go hard all game at trying to get the scoring condition for the animals that awards the biggest points. And I keep doing that every time, presumably because I somehow think I'm going to win like this. Whereas Kristen, she's more... Kevin (16:43.094) Mm-hmm. Daniel (17:08.082) flexible, right? And she pivots and every turn she thinks about, well, maybe this land type scoring conditional work or this scoring conditional work. And so she diversifies her and she always wins, right? And so just exactly what you're saying. So you can't make it all about the math, at least in terms of one particular equation. You have to keep a lot of equations in your head, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (17:17.1) Right. Kevin (17:23.903) Interesting. Kevin (17:32.867) That's the fun bit, but yes, yes. And having a strategy is great. Trying new strategies is great. So maybe you should not focus on animals and try a different path. But being flexible is great too. Now I think I tend to be too flexible and then I never land on a strategy and I end up having only middling points. Because if you change your strategy halfway through the game, you don't have enough time to then build the next strategy. Daniel (17:57.735) Right, right, yeah, yeah. Kevin (17:57.921) So it's a little, you have to be nimble in really good ways in games. Like Forest Shuffle is another one where it's basically set collection, which is, guess, what Cascadia is. You're kind of collecting sets of things that score point tile placement, but it's, yeah. And so you kind of want a strategy. You want to stay limber and yeah. Yeah, it's, that's the puzzle of trying to figure out this vague algorithm of points. Daniel (18:08.563) Sort of tile placement and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (18:20.957) Yeah. Kevin (18:27.714) formula something. Daniel (18:27.837) Yeah, yeah. I also love Cascadia about how you're awarded points for just getting elk in a line. I just, feel like, I feel like that's a delightful thought. Like somehow if the universe would reward you for getting elks in lines, that would be like a, as if they're doing country line dancing or something. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So they do need our. Kevin (18:35.662) Hmm. Kevin (18:40.14) Right. Kevin (18:43.715) right. Kevin (18:48.034) Great. They need our help. We are the elk, we are the elkherds, the shepherds, the elkherds. Daniel (18:57.383) The elk herds, yeah. So that's one principle that kind of came out your discussion of SETI. Doing the math, yeah, optimizing and doing this. But then you also mentioned timing. And this is something that you put in the show notes that had not occurred to me. Do you mind saying a little bit more, please, about how does keeping timing in mind help? Kevin (19:00.022) out. Yes. Kevin (19:07.402) is which was having strategy do the math Kevin (19:20.258) Yeah, I mean, so there are games like it's going to end and and it happens it's going to happen to anybody, but you're about to score some more points in the game ends and you don't get this point. So you really want to keep an eye on what's going to trigger the end game. A great Sam example is the game root, which is a is a race to 30 points. But the truth is in the end game, people are going to score five, six points easily on their turn. So when someone's at 23 or 24 points, you better have a plan for your last great turn of points because it is ending and you need to know that and you probably won't know it the first time you play and someone tells you, you're like, oh, it's only a 30 and I have another round or two, but you got to watch that timer because it can end very abruptly and that makes it fun. But yeah, every game has a trigger towards the end. Arc Nova is when the first person crosses. Right. Daniel (19:56.083) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:17.779) Yeah, the two markers cross each other on the track. Yeah, then that triggers the end of the game. Yeah. Kevin (20:21.474) Mm-hmm. Kevin (20:25.71) So you want to watch what the other people are doing because you may be planning, you think I'm going to cross in two more turns and Daniel's already done it and you're stuck. so, and so kind of doing that sense of what's the tempo of the game. It almost has like a musicality to it. There's a beat to it. And so there's the early game, mid game and end game, like the Avengers movie. you will end, which I guess is a reference to chess. End game probably comes from chess. Daniel (20:33.811) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:42.771) Yeah. Daniel (20:50.673) Okay. That's a great. Yeah. I like that. I like that. We, what came to mind when you're talking about that is we occasionally play Wits and Wagers. It's been a while since we played that, but it's a good large group game and it's a betting game with, you know, with play money. whenever you get to the last round, Kevin (21:14.488) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:20.487) It's the tradition of our family, at least. That's just when you just kind of go all in, because you know it's the last round, right? And it's kind of the same idea that you wouldn't go all in in round two or three or whatever, but as you see the end coming in, coming closer, it affects how you play and how much risk you take. Yeah, yeah. So that's good. I like that, yeah. Kevin (21:27.128) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:42.979) Yeah, yeah. Legacy of You is a game where you solo only game by Garfield Games and it, the cards are multi-use and in general you can kind of send a card off to get additional things, but you don't want to do that in most of the game because they're actually kind of your life points in essence, like you need them for future rounds, but it was the last one and it sort of dawned on me. Daniel (22:06.089) you Daniel (22:09.705) Mmm. Kevin (22:12.076) After playing the game a bit like you might as well go all in because you don't need them anymore So you get this really explosive fun last round where you get to just get a bunch of stuff Which is usually one of the harder moments of the game, but there's no reason to hang on to them Because that's the tempo of it. Just send them off cash them out Yeah Daniel (22:16.061) Right, right. Daniel (22:24.817) Yeah, yeah, that's a great yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Good. Kevin (22:36.064) And part of that with Tempo reminds me of the optimization puzzle. I think what helped me shift in being a gentle, personally gamer to being more strategic is every action needs to be serving your strategy. And I was so guilty for so long in playing games of like, this looks cool, so I'll take this action. And it might net you a couple of bucks or another surf or something. if in a medieval type game, but it's not helping you win. So you never want to waste a turn. And I was probably guilty of doing things that seemed cool, kind of like playing that Scrabble with my family. Like, well, that word's cool, so, but it doesn't garner a lot of points. So what's going to, every step has to be part of a grander ambition. Like you're saying the end is in mind and everything's moving you towards it. And it might even be second place. Like I know I can't beat Daniel. So I'm gonna go for seconds. So what am I gonna do that's gonna get me there? Daniel (23:39.667) So interesting. Yeah. Kevin (23:41.454) Instead of being like that's cool. I could take this and that would be really epic and fun And then you lose even though you had a cool Daniel (23:47.123) Right? Which, yeah, actually, I think that brings up a really good. to explore, attention to explore in this conversation. But maybe if it's okay with you, maybe we'll put a pin in it and maybe circle back to it after we talk about some of the strategies for getting better at game. For this idea of, yeah, if that's okay, we'll come back to it. I like, because the other optimization or the other strategy I heard you talk about in SETI is this idea of just playing. Kevin (24:03.918) Yes, let's like, yes, let's do that. Kevin (24:12.354) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:21.937) a lot of games. get better at games by just playing a lot of games. Not even necessarily playing one game a lot, so that'll certainly help getting a bit better at that one game, but just playing a wide variety of games can help at getting better at games too. is that, am I hearing you right in that? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:41.516) Yeah, absolutely. Because there really is very little new under the sun. There are some people innovating with what constitutes a game like Amabel Holland at Hollenspiel and sort of breaking games in interesting ways. And there are some kind of new mechanics that pop in. But in general, most of the mechanics have kind of been discovered. Daniel (24:48.254) Yeah. Daniel (24:55.08) Mm-hmm. Daniel (25:06.195) Yeah. Kevin (25:06.574) And so the more you play, the more you're like, oh, this is like that thing in root that happens when you do this or that. And so it's going to run. So now you've got to edge up. And that's how I did well on SETI is I'm like, OK, if I do this, then I upgrade and then I'm going to do this and that. And remind me of a lot of other games that are Euro type games. So yeah, if you know the type of game is trick taking, it's a Euro game. It's a. Daniel (25:25.341) Yep, yep. Amen. Kevin (25:34.014) Area control game. It's basically a race game. Race to a certain threshold, which is root. Daniel (25:35.635) Yeah. Daniel (25:41.596) Amen. Yeah, I this really resonates with me as well. Yeah, that I I think one of the things that's made me at least somewhat better at games over the years that it's been my hobby is that, yeah, I've just gotten exposed to more games, right? And more types of games. And I think about when we when I first started playing. To me, I don't know why it makes me always think about learning a foreign language. When I first started playing hobby board games, gee, it's probably like nine years ago now, eight or nine years ago, it was all new. And so every game was this massive learning curve of like learning these... Kevin (26:11.118) Mm-hmm. Kevin (26:28.866) Right, right. Daniel (26:30.631) these mechanisms that I've never encountered before, learning this vocabulary that I've never encountered before, because all I knew up until that point was, know, monopoly and twister, you know, whatever. And, and, Kevin (26:41.495) Mm-hmm. Daniel (26:46.749) And it's like, yeah, it's like if you're learning a foreign language and everything's going to be new. But the more you read anything in that foreign language, you know, this book, that book, this magazine, this newspaper, listen to this podcast or whatever, you are learning the vocabulary of that language. And I think that's true. Also, it's kind of, it's almost like a passive improvement, passive way of improving. Just the more you play games, the more you learn the vocabulary of hobby board games. Kevin (26:56.097) Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:01.026) Yeah. Kevin (27:10.094) Absolutely. Daniel (27:15.433) how mechanisms work, the more, so that the next time you encounter a new game, it won't feel quite as new. Like, you know how it works better, you understand the mechanisms better, how they fit together better. Yeah, it just helps to, you're learning a new language almost. Yeah. Kevin (27:23.544) Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:30.115) Yeah, yeah, I've seen Jenny go through this. really, my wife Jenny really hates learning new games. know, bless her heart. And that's kind of one of my passion projects in life. Because you and I, and most board gamer enthusiasts, we love checking out new mechanisms or new takes on mechanisms. And there are new mechanisms, but you know, there's not really new types of games. They're much harder to discover, I think. Daniel (27:35.785) Yeah. Daniel (27:41.801) Yeah. Daniel (27:54.887) Yeah. Kevin (27:55.427) But I've seen Jenny be like, I don't know. And then she's like, yeah, this is like that other game. And the lights go on. And then she's proud. She's like, yeah, I know how to play this game. It's an auction game. OK, I know what happens in auction games. This is a pick up and deliver game. Well, I got to complete a mission, basically. So yeah, you know that lingo and language, SETI intimidated my two other friends because it's a table hog. And I don't think they'd ever seen many games quite that Daniel (28:03.293) This reminds me of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Daniel (28:13.769) Yeah. Kevin (28:24.398) It looks complicated. I never thought that. I mean, I was like, oh, look, dude, these colors are awesome. But because to me, could speak the language. I'm like, OK, this is where you go to do this. I could start. I've seen games like that. Daniel (28:27.076) Yeah. It was new to you. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (28:40.871) Right, right, yeah. Yeah, no, I'd like to. I've heard great things about it, yeah. Kevin (28:42.86) Have you played SETI? Have you played it? you haven't? Yeah. It won all these awards so I thought. It's my first big game purchase in a while, to be honest. That and I picked up a copy of RAW. Daniel (28:55.314) of raw. Kevin (28:56.544) Raw, yeah, it finally came back in print. You know, it's been out of print. Raw is cool. We've played it a few times. It's a hard, that's another one where I'm not sure the tempo of the game down. It's really quirky. Daniel (28:58.057) I love raw. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (29:06.825) You know, you're exactly right. think I, I don't think I talked about this podcast in a previous episode. If I did, I apologize, but I, we, got the reprint of raw on the first round. Uh, so maybe what was that a year or two ago and, um, played it a few times. It just never really clicked because of that kind of the, timing most recently, Kristen and I played it with, um, Jordan super fan of the podcast. Hey, hey, hey, Jordan. Kevin (29:33.4) Who? What? Who? Daniel (29:36.005) And for the first time it clicked, just like the timing clicked and all of sudden it just opened up, yeah, this is how you play this game. And it was wonderful. And sometimes it just takes time for the timing to click. Kevin (29:40.014) Hmm. Kevin (29:44.975) This is why the Dice Tower and others, like Mike DeLisio, it's his favorite game of all time. So yeah, it's a really great game. Ra-Ra. I had a weird experience of trying to buy that game because I was at Tantrum Con in Charlotte and that was the first time I played it. It was the older copy and the guy was there of 25th century games or something. Daniel (29:50.183) Yeah, yeah, yeah, raw for raw, raw for raw. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (30:07.067) Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (30:08.362) Selling it and I kept trying to buy it and he would either be away for lunch or he'd close down or Like I don't know like something was starting and I had to leave and then when I finally got to meet sold out But it was kind of like it was it's and it's not a big convention like i'd go up the steps and around the quarter and it'd be like man, I was just cursed and so it that was in February and so it just now that I guess the second printing hit Daniel (30:20.073) no. no. Daniel (30:27.389) Hahaha Kevin (30:35.714) got off the boats or whatever so it's eight months later. That's okay I had something to look forward to. Daniel (30:39.323) Yeah, this reskin of it is, this is a tangent, but it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful game. And the raw marker, the wooden marker, it's so chunky and big and, yeah, that's right, that's right. So what other thoughts on getting better at board games? Any other principles or ideas or thoughts on it? Yeah, yeah. That's a good idea. Kevin (30:43.008) It's a tool. Yeah, I know it's it's lush and beautiful. Yeah. So satisfying because you can say I declare raw and you drop it down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. It's really good. Kevin (31:04.11) Playing the digital version. A lot of games have digital versions on the iPad or on Steam or board game arena and that helps. It's helped me when I've messed up rules like in root and some other stuff you think you're playing right and then the game makes you do something like what's going on and then you realize I was playing that wrong. But that's a great way to practice because you can play against the app itself or Daniel (31:09.234) Yeah. Daniel (31:29.927) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (31:30.902) against others in board game arena or even play solo versions you can play hadrian's wall on board game arena which might seem a little silly but if you're sitting outside you don't want to go get the game and set it out it'll set it out for you right and practice practice practice i got pretty good at lost well i'll save it for later yeah that's one way i got pretty good at a game yeah yeah the digital versions are great Daniel (31:34.536) Yeah. Daniel (31:44.819) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (31:50.865) Okay, okay, okay, okay, great, great, good. Yeah, yeah, I like, that's a great idea. It is good for practice. And of course, mean, yeah, just good old fashioned practice. There's no getting around that for improving in anything. Yeah, yeah, there's no substitute for practice. Kevin (32:03.662) Mm-hmm. Kevin (32:08.557) Right. Kevin (32:13.026) Yeah, I think that's the single thing. Practice and paying attention. Okay, I lost. Well, how did I lose? I lost because I needed three more rounds. Well, then I lost because I didn't understand the timer of the game. The tempo. Daniel (32:19.251) Yeah. Daniel (32:32.649) Another thought that occurs to me is, and this might kind of seem counterintuitive, but... Daniel (32:42.567) Almost like. not caring as much about winning. And part of that is working, being mindful of the experience of the other people around the table as well, right? Like working toward a positive experience of everyone around the table. So that it's not just about how am I going to win, but how can this be a good experience for everyone around the table? Kevin (32:49.57) Yeah. you Kevin (33:05.24) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:15.401) Maybe that may not necessarily... immediately increase your odds of winning, at least in a really apparent way. I think it does kind of longer term and I'll get into that later on as well. But it creates a better experience. that's another way of getting better at board games is just having a better experience at board games. And I think it reminds me of this quote from Reiner Knizia, board game designer we've talked about on the podcast before. Kevin (33:30.809) Ooh. Kevin (33:41.742) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:50.026) where he says something to the effect of the point of a game is to try to win, but winning isn't the point, right? And it's just, you have to try to win for the game to work. It's what holds a game together. And yet winning isn't the point of the game, right? It's spending time with these people around the table. And so I think the more, Kevin (33:55.958) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (34:08.398) Right. Daniel (34:19.369) person can focus on creating a positive experience for everyone around the table. That would include yourself, but certainly the others as well. The more it just creates an overall better experience of gaming for you and for others. Kevin (34:25.198) Mm-hmm. Kevin (34:33.762) Right. Absolutely. And so yeah, that's playing a different game in a sense than just winning this piece of cardboard in front of you. But yeah, having a great time and making sure everyone else is, which means not taking too long on your turns, means being respectful. Daniel (34:43.655) Yeah. Daniel (34:50.558) Yep. Kevin (34:53.678) being honest if you've messed up a rule or there's a problem. It may mean a little trash talk depending on the people you're with. But my my sons love to trash talk each other at the table. It makes it fun, but they understand. So you have to make sure you know your audience. But a little bit of like, oh, I'm going to crush you like, you know, grape jelly or something. You like kind of or just amping up the game and sideways ways creating that atmosphere. If it's a Daniel (35:04.871) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:13.609) Thank Daniel (35:18.557) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (35:23.808) it's like Mansions of Madness where you're exploring and it's haunted you might see I love doing music and you've seen me do this if you have some kind of a speaker go on YouTube play spooky music or when we play Twilight Imperium I'll pull up some space music just create some ambience and it's not hard it's just really YouTube and some kind of a speaker and that pays a lot of benefits sets a mood Daniel (35:30.377) You're good at that. Yeah. Daniel (35:37.799) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah. Daniel (35:49.405) Yeah. Kevin (35:49.871) It's nice to have the game set up for people, especially if they're a little nervous. And so then it's ready and then they can kind of fiddle with things and mess with it and move it around and feel comfortable and not bewildered completely, hopefully. Daniel (35:54.877) Yep. Yep. Yep. Daniel (36:04.263) That's right. Yeah, yeah. And they can I mean, and and and the more that others sense that you are in you're in this, you know, not just for yourself, but for their experience as well for for a positive experience for there as well. The more people can sense that right. And the more they will enjoy it and the more you'll enjoy it. Kevin (36:22.014) Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right. I never thought of that. You're right. If they sense that you're not there for blood, there will be blood. You're not just using them for a win, then you're right. They will sense that, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:33.481) Right? Yeah. Exactly. I like how you put that though. You're right. it's using them that it's it's maybe play in such a way that the other players on the table are not a means to your end of winning, but are that maybe the experience of gaming is a means toward a larger end for everyone on the table. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (36:58.83) Yeah, and shut up and sit down. think long ago had this bit about how I how to teach a game and I just love the idea of If you know the game and others don't you should try to lose in essence like and it's a little tricky because you don't want to come off as condescending but it would just be gentlemanly in a sense that It would be nice if you didn't crush them or didn't overtly win if you had the ability to because then it just ruins their beginning Daniel (37:11.145) Mm-hmm. Daniel (37:24.136) Right. Kevin (37:28.482) So you wanna be kind if you know the game well, and then if they don't know the game at all, they should be kind and not expect to win at all. Like you just wanna score some points and understand it. Daniel (37:36.168) Right, right. Like a yes, that's so good. Yeah, like an example of that is, you know, maybe you've played the game well enough that you know when a certain card comes up, maybe in a pool that you can draft from, that that's like a super powerful card. And that's, you know, that's going to go a long way to winning the game. Well, you could just sit there silently while that card is face up on the table and grab it on your turn. Or you could say, hey, everybody, just to let you know, this is a really good card. And, you know, and Kevin (37:51.65) Right. Kevin (37:57.828) Yes. Kevin (38:03.49) Yes. Daniel (38:04.429) And if you get a chance to take it, it probably would be really good. Cause if you don't, I'm going to take it when it comes around to me. But you know, just that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (38:10.434) Yes. Yeah, or don't take it. Just keep quiet, mum about it, and let them figure it out if they want to keep playing the game, but like down the road. But yeah, yeah, just not not being overpowered because that's not fun because again, they feel used. Daniel (38:22.951) Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that brings up kind of the thing, the issue I kind of wanted to put a pin in. If you're OK circling back around to that, if we feel like, we kind of done most of our list of, yes, play lots of games. Kevin (38:32.526) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's recap real quick. Play lots of games. Know the win conditions. Optimize that every move is the most powerful move you can make towards that win condition. Be aware of tempo and timers to the game. Do the math. Yep. Know the type of game and practice, practice, practice. Daniel (38:43.206) Yep, yep, yep. Daniel (38:51.208) Yeah. Yeah, do the math. Practice, practice. And work toward creating a good experience for everyone around the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Those are all great. Woohoo. Yeah, yeah. Good job. Kevin (39:06.424) Mm-hmm. Kevin (39:10.146) Yeah, me too. Love it. Love it. Daniel (39:17.321) The tension that's been at the back of my head through this conversation is just to, and I don't think we can come up with an answer to it, but just to lift up the tension. You know, we often talk about in the past on this podcast that the joy of games is that they are almost kind of an act of liberation from this larger world that seeks to make everything a means to an end. Kevin (39:45.582) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:47.466) The instrument we've talked about in the past using Oliver Berkman's line of the instrumentalization of everything, right? And how everything is in service to capitalism or the end or some means to an end. And that one of the joys of playing games is that they are, they fly in the face of that, right? Because this is games and play are profoundly Kevin (39:59.567) Mm-hmm. Daniel (40:17.615) non-instrumental, you know, they don't seek to serve the larger ends that our economic system says we need to serve. And so, yeah, we're thinking about winning games also, but then that kind of seems to fuel how do we talk about winning games and getting better at games and still preserve the joy of them not being a means to an end? Kevin (40:24.206) Mm-hmm. Daniel (40:47.145) You know what I mean? Kevin (40:48.694) Yeah, yeah, I know exactly. I hadn't thought of this, but you're right. Absolutely right. Daniel (40:53.065) Well, thanks. I mean, I don't know the answer for it. And it's good. That's which is why it's important to talk about. I mean, I'm glad we're talking about this whole topic. It reminds me, I guess one thing that comes to mind about it is, again, Oliver Berkman talks about games being and play being auto-TELIC, like this idea of coming from the Greek telos, meaning kind of the end or the purpose of something, or the goal of something. Auto-TELIC being like it generates its own Kevin (41:00.078) Yeah. Kevin (41:12.333) Mm-hmm. Daniel (41:23.439) end and goal in and of itself, you so it's still not serving this larger end or purpose or goal that society says, you gotta, you gotta make the company money or whatever. but within this very tiny unimportant trivial bubble of time and space, it generates its own, its own fleeting goal and then it dissipates again. Kevin (41:24.526) Mm-hmm. Kevin (41:34.414) Mm-hmm. Kevin (41:47.417) Yeah, I mean it seems to me it's just the irony of being human that we need these contradictory things that otherwise, if we take away the idea of doing well at a hobby, the answer of being non-instrumental and just... Daniel (41:53.747) Mmm. Daniel (41:57.107) Mmm. Kevin (42:08.778) not serving a purpose would be what goofing off laying around Chewing on grass and and you know after a while like i'm picturing like sitting in the prairie right and and just like picking up a blade of grass and chewing on it So kind of huck fin moment That's not going to make us happy people aren't built that way We we want to take up a hobby you start built you woodworking and you want to get better at it So we're purpose-driven creatures. So I think we you have to work with that irony of Daniel (42:12.049) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (42:25.491) Right. Daniel (42:32.573) Yeah. Kevin (42:37.762) doing something that's not important, but it's important to you. And you want to get better and maybe even excel. And then at some point it may become a career, like you become a board game designer or a publisher or a professional wood worker. Daniel (42:41.818) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (42:52.147) Yeah. Daniel (42:56.413) Yeah, I like that. It's more about the sense of like self-improvement, more a sense of like being part of your journey of being your best self, toward being your best self, whatever that means. And so in that respect, it's not in service to some... Kevin (42:58.19) craftsman. Kevin (43:10.594) Yeah. Daniel (43:15.497) to some nebulous goal or end or purpose that may or may never happen. But it's more a part of this very... Kevin (43:24.942) Hmm. Daniel (43:32.273) intimate journey of just becoming a better you over the course of your life sort of. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Kevin (43:36.473) Yeah. And being a flourishing you and without some kind of growth in something as well as without some, I don't know. In order, as Rainer Kenzie has said, like you have to want to win for the game to work. So if you want to play a game, have to, otherwise it just becomes a chit chat or a randomness. So, so if we don't try to win, then we can't play games. So you want to. Daniel (43:45.47) Yeah. Daniel (43:51.175) Right. Daniel (43:57.159) Right, right, right. Daniel (44:04.509) Yeah, yeah, that's right, it falls apart. Kevin (44:06.784) Yeah, so there's this weird irony paradox at the heart of that. And I guess the same true of, again, woodworking or sailing, that if you just get on the boat and then fall into the water, like you're not sailing. Like you have to try to sail. Like you have to try to meet the goal of itself that is actually completely purposeless, because you're not doing anything but just riding on a boat. Daniel (44:20.137) Yeah, yeah, right. Daniel (44:32.039) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. That's really well said. Yeah, thank you. It makes me think about, if I'm being an honest confession here on our game podcast, I've been playing less games recently because our daughter Maggie has been teaching me how to knit. And when I have some free time right now, I'm just enjoying knitting. Kevin (44:35.586) Hmm. Hmm. Kevin (45:01.262) That's so cool. Look at you. Daniel (45:02.057) And it's, well, thank you. But what I love is like, just what we're talking about that it's neat to see, I mean, I'm still really horrible at it, but like I'm gradually getting better at it, right? And it's a neat feeling. It's kind of the same thing. It's just, it's a neat feeling to see yourself improving, right? To see yourself. It's a knit. It's a knit feeling. we can get into all sorts of knit puns. That was a good one. Kevin (45:14.764) Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (45:21.398) Or is it a knit feeling? Nia, nit, neat, needed, neated. Nip puns. Thank you. I think it was a little weak, because it really doesn't sound like neat. But that is cool. That is so cool. Yeah. And I also, I only recently have gotten more into more games. Like, I kind of didn't play as much for a few months. So I think you go through these patterns. Daniel (45:31.517) That was a good pearl of a. No. Yeah. Well, yes. Daniel (45:48.042) Yeah, for sure, for sure. Reference our cycle of throwback to our episode on the life cycle of a board gamer. Remember that? We did that like a year or two ago. Or yeah, yeah, yeah. So Kevin, we've been talking about. Go ahead. Yes. Kevin (45:59.982) Right I'm gonna try to remember to put a card for that me yeah, and One other one other thought you reminded me to though as we the life cycle and stepping away and some ways I don't want to just be great at games like I'd rather and I don't mind people that want to but I see people that when are often thinking so furiously at the game Right. They're working so hard Daniel (46:23.719) Mm-hmm. Kevin (46:26.444) to plan out a strategy. And maybe I'm just not that smart or couldn't do it anyway, but I also look at them and I'm like, it doesn't seem worth it to me. Like I'd rather get second or fourth and be more casual. Maybe that's me going back to my family of origin Scrabble games, but. Daniel (46:40.808) Yeah. Daniel (46:46.269) Now, I love that. I love that. Yeah. That was something I noticed about you like a geek way at the board game conference that we were at with a lot of friends as well. That you were there to play games and it was great and you're good at the games and you learn them and you play them. But then there was, you didn't seem, there was also a certain kind of freedom to your approach to the games that was... Kevin (46:47.896) you know. Kevin (47:13.109) Aww, that's sweet. Daniel (47:13.725) was really cool. was like you didn't feel bound to them. I mean, that there was, it was part of your experience, good experience of life, but there are other parts of your good experience of life too. It was anyway, yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, we've talked a lot about ways of improving, of getting better at board games, both chances of winning, but also just kind of the overall experience. But. Kevin (47:18.232) Hmm. Kevin (47:24.694) Right. Well, thank you. That's sweet. Kevin (47:38.104) Mm-hmm. Daniel (47:42.707) Here's where the rubber hits the road, man. Bum, bum, What are some examples? I think we have come up with a few examples from our own game experiences of how some of these principles have helped us to get better at games to end this episode. Kevin (47:50.734) Mmm. Kevin (47:57.839) So, yeah, I despite saying I don't always care about winning, there are a games that really push my buttons. Hadrian's Wall, the anarchy. I was just like, I'm going to beat this campaign and I will do what it takes. I will sit out here and I will play and I will play and I will look up some strategies on board game geek, but I'm going to figure it out. And I kind of have like I got better and I realized some tricks of ways to achieve things that you may not know if you're Daniel (48:11.229) Hmm. Kevin (48:27.872) Haven't played it a lot and I got used to the tempo and yeah, I completed the Hadrian's Wall Campaign and I'm half more than halfway through the anarchy, but I bet I've played them Together a hundred and because I don't track it but like a hundred and twenty times or something crazy Yeah, I've played it so much like I've almost gone through that whole stack of paper in Hadrian's Wall Daniel (48:43.943) Wow, that's amazing. That's no small task either. Yeah. Wow. mean, like, and that's not like a 10 minute game. That's, that's a fairly substantial game to Yeah. That's amazing. Kevin (48:55.18) Yeah, it's about an hour-ish. But that's something I'll do, you know, to relax and lose. And I've lost so much. I've lost so many. But yeah. How about you? Aw, thanks. Daniel (49:00.711) Yeah, I love that. Daniel (49:05.063) Yeah, I like that. One example, yeah, one example comes to my mind is Croconol, the Canadian dexterity game, traditional dexterity game from Canada, Croconol. And I think for me, this maybe is an example of the idea of trying to care less about winning and just making it a positive experience for everyone around the table. Kevin (49:13.198) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (49:32.85) Ironically, it kind of may be better as well because it's it's we play it as a team based game So you're across the board from the report partner. Yeah from your across the board from your partner and Especially we're going into it and we're first starting everyone is bad at it. No one had played croak and old before We just heard these good things about it, but I was bad everyone was bad And so no one was going into the sense this game of the sense of like I'm gonna I'm gonna crush this, you know and so no one I wasn't really Kevin (49:38.626) That's better as a team. Yeah. Daniel (50:02.611) concerned about winning. And that kind of just gave me freedom to experiment and have fun with it. And also wanting to make it a positive experience for everyone on the table, including my teammate, made me want to get better at the game because it wasn't just about me. It was like, I want to be a better player for my teammate as well across it, you know. And over time, that sense of really not feeling personally invested in wanting to win for myself, but just, just Kevin (50:18.926) Aww. Daniel (50:29.673) having fun with this curious game and wanting to make it a good experience for everyone, including my teammate, I found I actually kind of got better at Croconol over time. Yeah, yeah. So that's one for me, Croconol. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Kevin (50:37.378) Hmm, that's Practice, practice, practice. I've gotten much better at root, think mostly because of the iPad implementation that I haven't just played a lot, but I've played enough that if I play the real root, I hear the music in my head, do like the different stuff. And it's just see and be honest, I'm not really into the digital versions, partly because I mean, I play them, I like them. Daniel (50:49.117) Yep. Kevin (51:06.552) But I tend to rush because it's so quick and I'm not paying attention to what the others are doing because it can just, right, it encourages me to not pay attention because the game is quick in terms of other players' turns. And I get all excited about what I'm going to do. But yeah, I think I've figured out some... Daniel (51:08.136) Yeah. Kevin (51:28.366) how the different characters play and when you want to really pounce and what's going to matter and where the points are. So yeah, the game of Rude, which is such a good game. Anyway. Daniel (51:37.418) Yeah, yeah, that is a great one. You've taught me to... I have still have played it a lot. I need to get a physical copy, but you've taught me to have a lot of respect and love for that game. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, another example for me is kind of along the same lines. It's because of a digital version. So I, Kevin, I am horrible at trick-taking games. Kevin (51:48.675) It will go down as one of the greats because it's so unique. Kevin (52:04.204) Hmm Daniel (52:04.337) trick-taking card games. I did not grow up with them. I played a lot of card games with my family growing up, but none of them were trick-taking games. We would play games like Canasta and Gin Rummy and things like that. And so I got to be an adult and occasionally play trick-taking games, which for our listeners who don't know, it's just as a kind of card game, a family of card games. And I'm horrible at them. I always come in last for every trick-taking game. just, I can't. And so I decided I wanted to get better. Kevin (52:29.569) Daniel (52:33.265) So I downloaded again, digital implementation, hearts on my phone. And I just play whenever I get a moment, some downtime, like to kill a few minutes in between things, I'll just play hearts on my phone just to try to get better at it. And over time it's gotten, I've gotten better at it, right? I've gotten better at this idea of how to do a trick taking game. So much so in fact, that recently we played, we were in a game group, played Rebel Princess, which is basically the game of hearts. Kevin (52:47.768) Hmm. Daniel (53:03.315) but with a cool skin on it, a new skin on it, princes and princesses. We played it in a group and now that I played hearts so much, I tied for last place. Kevin (53:20.846) Okay, I wasn't expecting it to go there. Daniel (53:25.137) With with with my dear friend Sam who also listens to the podcast from time to time. Sam from from equal. Yeah, yeah, you know, Sam. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I I was I considered it a win not to be in Seoul last place, but I was I was tied for last place. And that made me feel better. I'm still not winning it, but at least I'm not the absolute soul worse. Kevin (53:30.338) Who? I'm just kidding, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, but I'm teasing Sam. Hello, Sam. Kevin (53:51.029) Aww. Daniel (53:52.339) player at a trick-taking games on the table. yeah. Kevin (53:53.635) That is good for you. Keep going. I don't know how great I am, but we played a lot of hearts and spades and rook in, I guess, college. I remember playing it at Wake Forest. So, yeah, we did a lot of that. And I think I'm OK with this, but it's been a while. Lost Runes of Arnak is another one that I got better at with the digital version board game arena. And I got to where, again, I don't do just a whole lot, but I went through a period where I did and Daniel (54:04.263) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (54:22.818) I've scored over 100 points. I was really pleased with that. And there's one time I played with some random dude from some country somewhere on this planet. He claimed it could have been an alien just tunneling into our systems potentially. I don't know. But you wouldn't be surprised. So yeah, but it was one of those where we tied and there is a way to resolve a tie down to like four levels. And I won by like the fourth level. It's like we tied by score. Daniel (54:25.873) Neat. Neat. Daniel (54:36.537) I wouldn't be surprised, yeah. Daniel (54:51.42) No way. Kevin (54:52.12) points and then you went by a certain resource and then something else and then something else and then finally this last thing and he he messaged he's like wow I've never seen anyone do that at dying age that died exactly till that one last thing I have one more so that was total luck but still yeah yeah it was very dramatic I was like it's like huh I didn't know that could happen Daniel (55:08.851) That's amazing. What a dramatic ending and fun ending. Daniel (55:15.753) so cool. I love that. love that. My last example of a game I've gotten better at is Imperial Settlers, an older game now from Portal Games out of Poland. But it's one of the very first hobby board games I got when I got into a hobby. And I remember just feeling so confused by it and I was horrible at it and I didn't but but again, it one of my very first games. Kevin (55:19.31) And you? Daniel (55:45.263) I then went on to play all sorts of other games and learn all sorts of other games, kind of our idea of playing more games. And I found when I went back to Imperial Settlers after being away from it and learning all these other games, that all of sudden I was better at it. Like I understood it better. I understand how the mechanisms worked and okay, because I've seen this in other games. So that was an example for me of just learning the language of board games helped me to get better at that game when I came back to it. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (56:00.718) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin (56:09.742) Mm-hmm. So cool. So cool. Daniel (56:15.121) Any others from you? That's it. Okay. All right. Kevin (56:16.522) No, But let us know in the comments below or send us by email to play saves the world at gmail.com. Let us know some of the games. If you got any great stories about games you got better at or funny bits or whatnot. Yeah, let us know. Daniel (56:32.425) Yep, please do. And if you like this, please like and subscribe. If you could leave us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, that really helps a lot and we really appreciate it very much. Kevin (56:44.802) Yep. And you can also support us financially and help with some of the costs of making this podcast. And you can do that by going to our giving page, which is Daniel. Daniel (56:57.386) patreon.com slash play saves the world Thanks so much. Bye. Bye Kevin (57:00.714) Excellent. All right. Goodbye friend and friends.