Daniel (00:03.495) Play saves the world, episode nine, notes of rest with Julian Davis Reed. Daniel (00:14.929) music there. right. Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. It is so good to have you here. My name is Daniel Hilty and we are so grateful today to be joined by Julian (00:29.325) Julian Davis Reed, it's an honor to be here. Daniel (00:32.178) Julian, welcome. It is an honor to have you on the show. We're so glad to have you here. People who have listened to this podcast before may notice we are one person down today. Kevin Taylor is usually my co-host and he's unable to make it today at the last minute, but we are sending him prayers and good vibes and hope that he is doing well soon. Well, Julian, yeah, we've been looking forward to having you on the podcast. for a while now and so grateful because you have such an interesting and meaningful ministry that I experienced personally in a workshop a few weeks ago in my home state of Missouri. And just knew that it would be a great blessing to our listeners as well to hear more about it. But before we get into any of that, if you don't mind, please just tell us a little bit about yourself, please. Julian (01:11.321) Hmm. Julian (01:31.397) Thanks a lot, Daniel. And it was great being with you back then, playing and sharing with you. And so I look forward to seeing what we get into today. So I am an artist theologian of Chicago. I like to start off by saying I'm a child of God. And that's important because it holds central what nobody can take away. The other vocations I have fall in line behind that. I'm a husband and I'm a father and I'm a friend and a brother and son. And I love making music and having all of that bear witness to God caring for our restless world. So that's what I'm up to as an artist theologian, the project that you heard about. was called Notes of Rest and it is an invitation for the weary into the rest of God practice in the Bible and black music. And I do that by holding together various kinds of rest practiced in scripture, Sabbath, sleep, stillness, simplicity, silence, solitude, sanctuary, and slowness with then black music and looking at various features of black music as also invitations into rest. The music helps us understand scripture and scripture helps us understand the music. And last thing I'll say on this front is that I hold these two together, both in my practice within this ministry that's a workshop, it takes the form of retreats, it also takes the form of academic teaching, but I hold all of these together for the sake of playing music. Daniel (02:42.57) Mmm. Daniel (03:00.81) Mm-hmm. Julian (03:09.243) both in the world and in the church. And I also do it so that we can understand how to think theologically about our music and musically about our faith. And I use as a, as a linchpin for this, James Cone and his book, The Cross and the Lynching Tree, in which he writes that we need the lynching tree to really understand in modern terms, the horrors of the cross. Daniel (03:20.874) Daniel (03:28.907) Mm-hmm. Daniel (03:38.462) Mm-hmm. Julian (03:38.756) we need to understand the cross to understand any hope we might have in light of the lynching tree. So for me in spiritual formation, with music, black music in particular, I'm able to hold together these forms of spiritual practice that have been given to us and understand those amidst all the fullness of life that goes into black music and its creation and perception. But then I also use black music as a means Daniel (03:45.417) Mmm, mmm, mmm. Julian (04:08.486) to help us see the gift and faithfulness of God. sorry, I use the scriptures to help us see the gift and faithfulness of God in practices of sleep and whatnot, as well as in black music. And I also use black music as a means by which we can understand all of the muck and mire of life, but also the God who gives beauty and missed it. So that's what I'm up to, I'm really thankful. Daniel (04:34.06) you I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much. That is powerful to talk about, quoting James Cohen with the lynching tree and the cross and helping us to understand one and the other. I mean, one of the things I appreciated among many about the Notes of Rest workshop that you led was Julian (04:51.57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (05:05.934) that it brings together these two sources of authority, the authority of black music and the authority of scripture and how they can both illuminate each other. I love what you said about, I wrote it down here, helping us think musically about our faith. And that's a great phrase. Julian (05:15.932) Mm-hmm. Julian (05:21.382) Yes. Yes. Julian (05:32.767) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (05:35.671) Do you mind unpacking that a little bit for us more, please? What would be an example of thinking musically about our faith? Julian (05:39.294) Yeah, for sure. Well, one idea, for instance, is this idea about taking beauty, making beauty out of the muck and mire. know, being a black American is a complicated idea. Du Bois talks about this where in the Negro problem, Daniel (05:55.222) Mm-hmm. Julian (06:00.405) where you always are experiencing your two-ness. You're not fully American, but you're also not fully African. And you sit in between and your head's on a swivel between both continents. And so that's been the lot of black folk. And you see that still, I mean, even to the tune of Kamala not being seen as black and Barack not being seen as black, but then also being seen as black when it's convenient. And... Daniel (06:07.245) Hmm. Daniel (06:11.981) Hmm. Daniel (06:21.261) right. Daniel (06:26.669) Right. Julian (06:30.688) That has always been situatedness in which those of us who identify as black find ourselves and from which we make our music. Amir Baraka is this incredible music theorist who talks about how music is, black music or particularly the blues onwards emerged out of the realization that the chasm between the black man and the white man that came from a failed reconstruction wasn't gonna be closed. Daniel (07:00.687) Mmm. Mmm. Julian (07:01.086) And we put our disappointment, but I would also suggest we put our hope into music. James Cohn also in the book, Spirituals in Blues, talks about just this, that the blues were a secularized version, so to speak, of the spirituals in which we were looking to claim a sense of humanity in this music. Now, how that relates to faith is that... Daniel (07:06.306) Hmm Daniel (07:09.772) Mm. Daniel (07:19.105) Hmm. Julian (07:23.041) The music that continues to flow that flows through the jazz era and the hip-hop era that flows through blues rock and roll R &B funk soul All this is emerging from folk who are being starved out of their homes who are being? Stepped over during World War two so that white soldiers can get the last rights who aren't being given the GI bill when we come back home from the war who are being mutilated because of Looking or even daring to look at a white woman All this then leads to music and it leads to music amongst all these incredibly difficult situations and leads to music that's incredibly hopeful, beautiful, that contains sorrow, but doesn't stay there. And I hear in black music of all kinds, this invitation to have faith, to dare to dream, to dare to believe in God, to dare to call out for mercy. And that's not just a daring that happens for black folk amongst black folk. Daniel (07:51.152) All this then leads to music. Daniel (08:15.098) Yeah. Julian (08:21.6) Sound by its physics is always extending beyond whatever natural boundaries you have, which is why you have to try so hard to soundproof rooms, you know, because people can hear, people can hear through walls. And I'm very thankful for instance, in my condo here, I'm thankful that my neighbors really like my music. Cause the reality is they're just gonna naturally hear it if you're playing an acoustic instrument like I am. And so you have to work really, really hard to try to stop sound, but the sound continues to travel. Similarly, black music, Daniel (08:30.819) yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. Daniel (08:40.623) Right, right. Julian (08:51.476) even if it was made for us and by us, it also naturally Expands which is why you hear all kinds of people talking about listening to Coltrane or listening to Miles Davis or listening to NWA or listening to Whitney Houston and some certainly some of these cats were positioned to be more so crossover figures like Whitney Houston But the fact is this black sound that comes from black pain Also always extends this invitation to the world and I see that very much as a way to think through because this is all getting to this your question Thinking about black music in this robust expansive Generous way is also a way to think through and into the crucial Daniel (09:04.848) Yeah. Julian (09:25.943) was a form life of the Christian in which we take our pains. We live with the stigma of Christ and Jesus says from the cross, to me all you who are weary father, forgive them for their sins for they know not what they do. And so just to all spin on the head of the pen that is James Crohn's crossing lynching tree. You can see Jesus from the lynching tree as the one lynched saying, I still have peace for you. And I see that with black folk all the time for whom, for instance, to do gunnington couldn't sit in the audience that he was playing for in many cases. Daniel (09:36.338) Hmm. Julian (09:55.799) and he still got up there and played beautiful ballads. What would it look like for the church to hold fast to our pains and say, open to the world, come one, come all, come and receive? I think this is what Eucharist is all about. Daniel (09:56.306) Hmm Mm. Daniel (10:06.716) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Wow. The image of the... Well, the image of the Eucharist, but also the image of the sound waves that we can't control the sound waves. That's a powerful thing. That's a powerful thing. Yeah, yeah, I love that. So. Julian (10:22.393) Yeah, yeah, yeah Daniel (10:32.977) So where did the specific idea for notes of rest come from? So we talk about this idea of, exploring slowness and stillness and silence and Sabbath and through the black music and through the Bible. Where did that come from? The idea to explore these same things, because it's wonderful and meaningful. Julian (10:38.757) Mmm. Daniel (11:01.084) And it's not something you hear from a lot of sources. So where did that come from? Julian (11:04.549) Yeah, yeah, yeah for real. So as you can probably tell in just how I speak in the layering it very much is layers of sediment that have accreted over many years and The sediments come from my life as an artist and theologian which is why I really hold the two together and live at the hyphen And so my time in seminary I was getting my MDiv at Candler School of Theology at Emory. I was also starting a band I didn't really intend to but it just happened and I started this band out in LA called the Juju exchange. I was one of the founding members and That was happening. We were making records playing shows Playing around the country a little while I was also still a full-time student at Candler and so yeah Daniel (11:52.329) Wow. How did you do that? So this is two sides of the coast, Julian (11:56.796) that man what you say that was Atlanta to LA I remember there was one time that I had to take a red eye to get back for preaching my preaching 101 preaching 501 breakout session in Atlanta from LA from some show or recording session yeah it was a lot it was a lot ironically not terribly restful but what that was starting to do was put together Daniel (12:12.512) Wow, yeah. Julian (12:22.408) My love for music, I've been playing a lot prior to, I've played in church, I've directed choirs, I've been a pastor at a church, I've been in campus ministry, and my mom's a pastor at UMC. I so I've been doing that thing my whole life. And I'm a child of the church, still am a child of the church, still attend church. We're looking for a new church home right now. But we are attending church. And so I very much am rooted in the life of the local body of Christ. I also was... rooted in the academy and I love that. And I also, like I was just saying, in the music industry. So what I had to figure out during seminary was this itch that had started prior to, which is how do I hold together my love of music playing professionally. Playing professionally, my love of music. How do I hold together the Theological Academy and my love for the local church? And what I saw was people in various spaces were a little iffy on one or multiple of the others. Professors oftentimes found refuge in the academy away from the church. Musicians oftentimes found refuge away from the church on the stage. People in the church sometimes had very little to do with that devil's music, jazz for instance, or hip hop or something like that. Daniel (13:21.599) Hmm. Daniel (13:29.624) Hmm. Daniel (13:36.715) Right, right. Julian (13:37.002) And so I found people who found good enough reason to keep chasms between these worlds. Whereas for me, I really wanted to live in the integration of them, even though I understood the reasons for others keeping them apart. So I was throwing stuff at the wall, writing albums based on Augustine's Confessions or based on Joe. Yeah, I wrote a, I did a record on Confessions for one of my classes. So I was just throwing paint at the wall in seminary. Daniel (13:54.198) Wow. Julian (14:02.825) And then after school, I was flummoxed by how do I hold them together? I want to play at a high level. want to still be involved in the academy and still be pastoral. How do they hold together? And then the COVID hit and in midst of COVID, I saw people's restlessness. My wife is a pediatrician and so I was seeing her move and I was seeing the way she was living and just to get difficulty there in. And then. Also was filling all this restlessness within me because getting a PhD didn't feel Exactly like the move giving it all up to just play only didn't feel like the move either so on and so forth so how do I hold this together and entrepreneurial entrepreneurship emerged and I ended up creating this idea of notes of rest wherein I could hold together all three of those spaces Academy music industry and local church and One thing that was really curious to me about music was I felt a lot of angst on the inside during the pandemic. But when I played piano, people said they felt a lot of peace for me. And so I wanted to follow and listen to the music. And I think that's really important pursuant the topic at hand today about how play saves the world. That there was something in the music that was speaking to me that my logical understanding of everything wasn't making sense of. Daniel (15:11.131) Mmm. Mmm. Daniel (15:23.661) Hmm Julian (15:29.962) I also then thought and drilled down on the idea that of Isaiah 6 in which the Seraphim have their eyes covered while they cry out holy. And that there was this idea of the impossible meeting the possible, what you could see and what you couldn't see coming together. that that was the site of the theophany. That was the site in which God was being beheld. That was where theological thinking was happening. Daniel (15:42.018) Hmm. Daniel (15:54.55) Mmm. Mmm. Julian (15:55.787) And that's when I started thinking about sound and silence together. And what's it mean to live at the middle point between those? Notes rest, notes of rest. Daniel (16:04.622) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Julian (16:06.069) And so it's always playing on this idea of sound and silence being together, holding together, and I think it's in that space, the gaps, in the triptych, to use visual art metaphors, where it's the gaps between the panels of a triptych in which God is actually seen. And that, man, when I learned that concept in seminary, you know, when they had those three European panels, for those of y'all who don't know, three European panels, like the visual art from the 1600s, they have like the Europe, Daniel (16:19.608) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (16:25.615) Yeah. Julian (16:35.936) Cronach would do this and other cats Oliver Cronach I think his first name is but they would have these three panels law and gospel or and you know vignettes of Peters life and the point was that God was actually discoverable in the cracks in between that in between the panels is where you would actually experience God and that was just that was just a nice visual metaphor for me of notes of rest that it was in those cracks of the possible and impossible the space and the presence that That you would experience God. So that's that's my prayer Daniel (16:56.959) That's so good. That's so good. Daniel (17:03.365) Yeah. Daniel (17:11.24) Mm-hmm. That's it. That's I celebrate that story for many reasons. One is it's it's something positive that came out of the pandemic. That's that's there's not there aren't a lot of positive things that came out of that, but I'm glad, glad for that, glad for that. And before I forget about it or let it pass without mentioning it, I've I've been listening. Julian (17:22.083) Yeah G. Yeah G. Yeah. Daniel (17:37.659) this week to the to the Juju exchange. And I really like the music. So, yeah, I recommend that to our listeners. Check them out. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, totally. So. Something we talk a lot about on this podcast is kind of fighting, maybe that's not the right word, but resisting or confronting the legacy Julian (17:40.204) Hey, much love, man. Thank you. Thank you so much, man. Daniel (18:07.996) of this idea that's often kind of called the Protestant work ethic, right? This idea that you prove your worth, you... Julian (18:13.432) Hehe. Daniel (18:22.438) your worth is the labor you put out into the world, right? And it's also proves how you're good with God. You know, the Reformation took away the idea that you could earn your way into God's grace, but we can't quite seem to live with grace wholesale. And so we very quickly figured out a way to say, Julian (18:27.781) Yes. Daniel (18:46.911) maybe we can't earn God's grace, but we can show that we've got God's grace by how productive we are in the world and how fighting and that's so becomes such an ingrained part of who we are. You mentioned earlier kind of utilitarianism even before we go on the podcast or this kind of instrumentalism, that everything and every person has to serve some function, some larger function in society. And there's so much pushback. Julian (19:05.285) Yeah. Yes, yes. Daniel (19:17.247) to this idea of even suggesting that that's not the end all and be all of who we are. And I just would like to ask you about that. As you were exploring these ideas of rest and stillness and God in between all the action and that movement, did you encounter pushback both in others and in yourself? Did you encounter any pushback? Julian (19:29.851) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Julian (19:35.076) Yeah man, yeah man, yeah man. Julian (19:45.296) Definitely within myself. I would say that's number one Lupe fiasco is my favorite rapper and He's from Chicago and he has this line that says my greatest enemy is my enemy and I Generally, I generally get down with that. I like that. I think that you know the adage goes on my harshest critic and and then of course you have the added the added burn in my case of being black and a black male and Daniel (19:51.358) Hmm. Daniel (19:57.376) ooh, that's a good line. Yeah. Daniel (20:14.187) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Julian (20:14.994) there was this really famous painting. I don't know who did it, but there's this famous painting from, think the 19th century in which there's a black man with a little reed stalk in his teeth taking a nap under a tree. But that picture meant to emblematize black laziness, which is ironic given what we were brought here for. So, Daniel (20:22.367) Mm-hmm. Daniel (20:30.258) you Daniel (20:35.242) Hmm Hmm Julian (20:44.153) So that so to then talk about rest and as a male and as a black male because There there's a definitely a surge and it's great. These cats are out way out front and i'm learning from them But there are all kinds of black women who are talking about rest within the church and beyond Trisha her see who went to candler as well her book rest is resistance her ministry the nap ministry if you ever heard of that check it out Cole Arthur Riley also big on rest. She's the Daniel (20:47.272) Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (21:13.438) Yeah. Julian (21:14.206) pioneer with black liturgies. You have Bill Hooks. Those are just three men off that Octavia Rahim. I think she's Christian, but she does a lot of work around the sacredness of rest. These are black women who are really out front with this thinking. Audre Lorde to go back a couple decades to another generation. So a lot of folk that have been doing this work, particularly black women, but, and then white men do a lot of this work. Daniel (21:16.266) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (21:24.723) Okay. Daniel (21:29.058) Yeah. Julian (21:40.402) You know Walter Bruggemann and everybody named mama writing on the Sabbath Abraham Heschel The list goes on and on white women too I'm in this spiritual formation program with this white woman Ruth Haley Barton and she's talking tons about it So it's it's very in vogue for Barbara Peacock's a black woman to so care for black folk She's Christian so you have all of this within black women and then a lot coming from white men Daniel (21:45.749) Right, right. Daniel (21:52.777) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Julian (22:09.523) and white women about rest, rest. course, are maybe two big voices in my head and what I see in the literature and what I see in the marketplace. But to be a black man talking about this also can lead to some pushback, or again, just within me. So I have definitely felt that, to your point. One thing that has encouraged me, I mean, all these people I just mentioned have encouraged me in the work. But then also being a musician. Daniel (22:10.817) Hmm. Daniel (22:21.983) Mmm. Mmm. Julian (22:39.254) I've seen how important it is for us to do this because the world of being a musician is just a very exhausting one. mean, it's nothing. When you get to a certain level, it's nothing to be on a plane from Rome to San Jose. And then you play a gig as soon as you land. And then you go back and play a gig in Orlando, Florida. That is a very common, when you're at a certain level, but that's a common kind of movement for cats. Daniel (22:39.702) Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:55.052) Wow. How do you? Julian (23:08.827) yeah. Daniel (23:10.081) Sidebar, how do you do that? Because I preach every Sunday and it takes all I can do just to get up from my house and drive to the church and try to be present to preach a sermon. And I was in the same city. I've always admired musicians' ability to be present in their music. Julian (23:15.37) Yeah. Julian (23:24.757) Amen. Julian (23:36.733) Mmm. Daniel (23:37.697) when they've just flown from the other part of the country or the world or what's your secret? How do you do that, Julian? Yeah. Julian (23:41.003) Yeah. Man, saves the world. When it's come to that. Now, someone argued that that's incredibly dehumanizing. We shouldn't do anything of the sort. We shouldn't move that way. So that's fair. And I have sat with that tension between being a touring musician, but then also really being called to rest. And it's ironic, because in music, you're getting paid to observe the rests. Daniel (23:53.957) Mmm. Yeah, that's a good point. That is fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Julian (24:10.879) I mean, nobody wants to hear sound exclusively. They want to hear pauses. They want to hear the breaks. They want to hear the breaths. Depending on your instrument, you want to hear that stuff. So you're getting paid to keep time and you're getting paid to observe rest in the music, in that moment. And everybody's heartbeat moves to yours and people breathe at the same rate at their... Daniel (24:19.022) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (24:26.745) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Julian (24:32.693) doing singing together in an audience. So all of these ways of moving in sync and yet your life outside of that is seemingly fairly irregular and unregulated. And so it's a really hard contrast and not, mean, many don't deal with it well, you know, in terms of other kinds of habits that. Daniel (24:35.204) Hmm. Daniel (24:42.713) Right. Daniel (24:47.961) Mm. Daniel (24:51.983) Right. Julian (24:53.427) Emerge one thing I try to do is I don't want to be on the road all the time and also I try to be really careful with my body when I am well even when I'm not on the road, but when I am on the road, you know, I don't drink Anymore, I never really drink that much But I definitely don't drink that much anymore or really at all because I know of the kind of toll it takes I'm careful about how I eat. I'm careful about sleep. I exercise as much as I can I Daniel (25:05.103) Sure. Daniel (25:09.455) Mm-hmm. Daniel (25:14.085) Mm-hmm. Julian (25:22.829) do contemplative prayer in the morning and read scripture and try to journal as systematically as I can so that all those practices keep me grounded, especially in systems that are as topsy-turvy as touring. so I mean, now in the back to the pushback question, it can feel like. Daniel (25:35.526) Yeah. Julian (25:40.864) Talking about rest seems orthogonal to the nature of music because as a blue collar shift worker, which is effectively what you are as a musician, you get the gigs as you get them. You're making 200 bucks a gig, maybe 400 if you're flying from Rome to San Jose. Sometimes it's better than that, but oftentimes the money's not great because the arts are only valued so much. So it could be a very hard life. Daniel (25:48.986) Hmm. Daniel (26:00.186) Yeah. Julian (26:09.496) Can feel that you just need to take every gig. So being told to rest and sit down and all that What does that necessarily look like? I will not forget Daniel. I was talking to this rapper I'll leave him nameless because I don't want to I'm not shaming him at all It's just it just is a harrowing exchange a couple years ago was fixing to go on a two-week vacation with my family and my wife's family. They know how to sit and rest. I mean these Daniel (26:23.366) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (26:35.738) Mmm, mmm. Julian (26:37.665) These folks in Canada, my family, they just sit and talk and sleep as you need. Here's the food in the fridge. It is very, it is really powerful just how much they sit. Daniel (26:45.191) It's great. Julian (26:50.305) And it's definitely a deep practice that I've learned from. When you get together with them, best believe you're largely gonna sit. You'll move around a little bit, but you're really just gonna sit all day and talk and hang, be quiet as you need. It's really deep, really a gift. I remember I was fixing to go during the COVID and I was gonna go for two weeks up to Montreal where my in-love stayed. Daniel (26:50.373) Huh, wow. Yeah. Daniel (27:03.686) Yeah. Julian (27:11.011) And so I'm fixing to go and right before I'm talking to this rapper, black dude here in Chicago, and he had just been in a shootout recently, I think, and was fixing to move to LA just because the violence was so hot here. And I was talking to him about going to rest. And he said to me, Daniel, I don't even know what that word means. And that cut my that cut to my soul. But this, I think that typifies how a lot of musicians. Daniel (27:18.471) Mmm Julian (27:35.384) That's even if they don't say that to me always, that's often how it feels to me. They don't even know what that word means. Even though, like I said, the music wouldn't exist if we didn't know how to observe rest within it. So I think the music has something to tell us if we dare listen, which of course is pursuant this podcast, but I just think it's true for life. And this also gets back to thinking musically about faith and faithfully about music. What is the music trying to tell us? What is it that we find beautiful? What is it attractive? Daniel (27:39.805) Yeah. Daniel (27:51.175) Yeah. Daniel (28:01.36) Yeah, yeah. Julian (28:04.142) What is attractive about that? And I think part of it is the way rest sits next to the sound. Daniel (28:10.206) Yeah, yeah. mean, there's, you know, it took me hearing the name of your workshops a few times before I kind of got to play on words with, you know, kind of kind of notes of rest that, you know, it's it's it's been observed a lot. It's nothing new for me. But, know, yeah, this idea that, you know, that, yeah, notes are nothing without the rest. you know, that's it's otherwise it's sound. It's just it's just frenzy. It's just, you know, freneticness. Do you? Julian (28:32.23) Yes, right. Julian (28:37.788) That's it. That's it. Daniel (28:39.826) Yeah, is. Daniel (28:47.138) Talking about the experience with the story of you're talking with this rapper about what you know, what what is where I don't know what that word means It something else we've talked about on this podcast or reminds me of it's this idea that Julian (28:55.069) Uh-huh. Daniel (29:02.188) how one person's play can be another person's work, right? And how like, and that's, and you said it earlier just a little bit ago about, know, kind of is it almost exploitative what we ask of our musicians, you know, to do, you know, to fly around the world and, and, you know, for a lot of people who aren't musicians or at least paid musicians or, you know, that's their career, music, they, lot of people would say that's the, that is part of their rest. You know, it's like, you know, I'm to put on this song. I'm going to, you know, Julian (29:05.244) Mmm. Yeah, man. Julian (29:16.709) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:32.255) Do you, do you? We've probably been dancing around a little bit already, just, mean. Do you ever face that dilemma in yourself? what is, you know, where does work end and rest begin for you? Or where does play begin and how do you sort that out or can you sort that out? Julian (29:47.943) Yeah. Yeah. Julian (29:54.129) Yeah, that's a great question. Roy Hargrove is this trumpeter he passed a couple years ago. I think apart from the arduousness of being a touring musician. And this cat was a preeminent trumpeter. I mean, playing everywhere, he probably had close to 300 dates a year. I mean, this cat was cream of the crop. And he said, towards the end of his life, Daniel (30:15.275) Hmm. Julian (30:23.037) The payment that we get is really just for the travel. We play basically for free. Daniel (30:31.126) Interesting. Julian (30:31.95) And I think that's such a fascinating concept when you think about labor in music. Because a lot of musicians would say, we would play even if we didn't get paid. In fact, there's a really famous recording, Miles Davis's second quintet, Four and More, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Wayne Shorter. Daniel (30:35.5) Hmm. Julian (30:52.574) Them jokers didn't get paid. Sorry, I think it's George George Coleman. Okay, I think it's George Coleman, but the point is that quintet they learned right before the hit they weren't getting paid what And it's one of the most iconic records of that quintet I mean so so it's it's very hard to Separate because the work often bleeds into the play. I mean You know Daniel (30:54.964) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Daniel (31:03.606) You're not getting paid for this. Wow. Julian (31:22.304) a good sign for instance, this is trippy because I assure you what I'm about to say is trippy because yeah, I'm gonna show you what I'm gonna say is trippy because we never think of it. And Encore is asking for more labor for free. But it's something that people want and it's something that shows that an artist is good, right? But we would never go to a restaurant and say, man, that was a good cauliflower dish. Encore, give me another one. And they're like, great, yeah, that's, yeah, for free. that's what we wanted, yes, great. Daniel (31:26.996) I'm all for Trippie. No, it's okay. Go for it. Daniel (31:34.925) You Daniel (31:40.79) Yeah. Ha ha ha! Daniel (31:47.501) For free Daniel (31:52.045) That's great, that's great. Julian (31:52.509) You know, and it's because the thought is the labor of music is immaterial enough where you playing for another 10 minutes or 20, doesn't need to be respected in the same way. Whereas if I make another batch of cauliflower, that should be respected because we're able to more easily monetize the food that we create. Maybe not the labor of the chef, maybe. Daniel (32:06.512) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Julian (32:18.283) but the food at least we can monetize, whereas the labor of the musician and the ephemerality of the music is far less monetizable. So yeah, play another 15 minutes. So what's now, what's now, one thing I do to protect the play nature of the music. Daniel (32:18.637) Mmm. Daniel (32:25.825) Yes, yes, that's, that's so good. Julian (32:36.001) is it's part of my devotionals many mornings. And that's for nobody else but for me and God and my family. And I guess my neighbors, because they're here. But some really special moments are when I'm playing for my daughter, she's 14 months. Daniel (32:44.569) Ha ha Julian (32:49.651) And it's just us. And I like that it's not, we're not taping it. It's not recorded. I don't make songs out of it. I'm not thinking, let me put this out. No, we're just playing. We're just worshiping God on Sabbath together or sometimes early in the morning. And that stuff is just amazing. So I really want to hold to those practices because they keep it from being entirely monopolized by the nature of commerce. Now I say entirely because it's inevitable to not think when even when I'm playing in the morning. Daniel (32:49.711) No. Julian (33:19.529) This would be hit let me play this tonight. Let me okay. This this is a good idea, right? There's that And so I get that but the extent to which you can actually preserve a moment of stillness before God and Allow the music to enter into the silence of God. Yeah, That's what I'm trying to maintain and protect for myself and my family and playing it in places that are gratuitous It's really helpful. Last thing I'll say on this front is Mako Fujimura. Who is this? Daniel (33:21.923) Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, sure. Julian (33:47.702) really contemplative visual artist. He had this book out a couple years ago called Art and Faith, Theology of Making. And in it, he talks about how art is often seen as problematic or superfluous to life in modernity because of how much we are in the vice grip of utilitarian pragmatism that's come on the other side of the Industrial Revolution. And so by virtue of the factory and the invention of Daniel (34:08.581) Yeah. Yeah. Julian (34:15.98) And also just the kind of thinking utilitarianism from John Mill and the cats out of Europe You have that which is happening alongside the creation of the factory and all of this philosophical thinking but also this economic Approach to life and widgets and things got to be the same size and what's the function of this and cogs and machine all this kind of language that starts to emerge 19th and 20th centuries that then makes art that used to adorn churches and all this. can make visual art seem superfluous. It can make music just about dollars and cents. And it becomes hard to see the gratuity of God, how God has given. Daniel (34:52.357) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (34:57.296) Mmm. Julian (34:58.775) God's life to us freely, not because God owed us anything, but because God wanted to give life. And that was gratuitous and remains gratuitous. And we can't lose that. And art is a way of holding onto the gratuity of God. And so if I can hold onto the gratuity of God within the silence of God within my devotionals in the mornings or something. Daniel (35:01.346) Yeah, right, right. Yep. Yep. Daniel (35:18.577) Mmm. Julian (35:19.637) Able to hold on to the fact that this is a gift given to me freely given and I want to give this back to my family I want to give this to God back in my own and Thus when I'm playing four dollars and cents like I will be in a couple hours tonight here in Chicago When I'm playing for dollars and cents it can still have at the core this protected This protected silence this this protected space of sanctity in God and I think that's the sanctuary Daniel (35:45.746) That's so good. Julian (35:47.34) So you see how even in my discussion, I'm talking through the notes, sanctuary, silence, simplicity. I'm talking through the notes that come from scripture as lived out in the life of music. And this is a way of thinking musically about theology, but then also theologically about music. Daniel (35:53.574) Yes, yes. Daniel (35:59.622) Yeah. Daniel (36:05.78) That's so good. That's so good, Joanne. I love that. Yeah. That one of the gifts of silence and stillness and rest is the fact that there is nothing in that that we can monetize and quantify and turn into a, you know what I mean? Turn into a means to an end. whereas if there's anything in there, we could say, well, cellulose or cellulose. And in some ways that absence, that void is what allows Julian (36:21.484) Hmm. gee. Yes Daniel (36:36.52) There to be just grace. There would be pure grace. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. I love that. I love that. I. Yeah, I know. Julian (36:38.284) Amen, amen, amen, amen, amen. The works righteousness is real. As much as we say that we're we're saved by grace alone and all that, the works righteousness is real. Daniel (36:52.208) I'm with you. I would say that's our dominant way of understanding everything. And we're just not conscious of it, including me. I'm sure I'm the same way too. Yeah. Julian (37:00.134) Mmm. Julian (37:05.83) same here. You know, it's a challenge. You think about how Americans justify our use of fossil fuels. It's in part because of our sense of work and our righteousness around it. Like, we're doing good works in the world, so we should therefore be able to fly here and there and do all this. And that is thinking that I have Peltu too, that this is part of my calling to play. And so I do this, I do that. Meanwhile, you know, one flight from New York to San Fran, they said, is more carbon emissions than the entire year. Daniel (37:13.694) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Julian (37:35.706) years worth of emissions of a Cameroonian, you know? So it's, mean, that's one flight, one way. I mean, so it's... Daniel (37:39.144) Wow, yeah. Right. Julian (37:44.848) I don't, what I say to you, don't say free of these complexities around what it means to wrestle. But I think this gets back to the cross and the lynching tree. That the horrors of life are always presented to God as the sights of beauty. And I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm trying to be conscious and conscientious and ultimately fall on the grace of God. Daniel (37:49.62) Sure, sure. Daniel (38:03.893) Mmm. Daniel (38:15.657) Amen. Julie, we got it. We're going to have to wrap it up there, but I wish we could talk for two more hours. was great. I love it. Maybe we could have you back again sometime. But this is wonderful. Thank you for your ministry, your great work. It great conversation. I certainly have enjoyed it. yeah, I know our listeners well, too. So if people want to find out more about you, how can they do that, please? Julian (38:25.159) This has been great man, yeah this has been tight. Julian (38:35.237) Man, thank you, Daniel. Julian (38:43.717) Yes, I would love to share with you. So I just put out a record. You can learn about it on my website, juliendavisbree.com. I put it out on the election day to remind us that no matter who won. that God would be and is our shepherd and host. So besides Still Waters, a notes of rest offering is out online on all streaming platforms. You can check that out on my website, juliendavisbree.com. You can also learn on juliendavisbree.com about notes of rest. I would love to bring it to your school, to your church, to your community. God is a God of rest and is amidst our restlessness. Thanks be to God. Daniel (39:18.937) Thanks be to God. A great and much needed message. Thank you. Well, we appreciate it. people want to check out us. You can find us at playsavestheworld.org and you can email us at playsavestheworld.gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you as well. So Julian, I'm grateful the Lord has put people like you in the world. Thank you so much. Appreciate you hanging out. So, all right. Julian (39:43.527) Man, thank you Daniel. Thank you for this and thank you for doing this work man. This podcast, Needful. Daniel (39:49.835) Thank you. Thank you. All right. Bye bye. Julian (39:51.699) My Slaughter. Peace.