BGF 26 Colonialism === Kevin: Colonialism. It's a hot topic in academics and in the cultural conversation in America, and it's become a conversation regarding board games as well. This week on Board Game Faith, we discuss in AV club where we look at a YouTube video that explores an important topic. This week we look at colonialism in board games as part of our AV club specials. Welcome to Board Game Faith, a biweekly podcast on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. My name is Kevin Taylor, Daniel: and my name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: and we are so glad you are here.. Daniel: Well welcome again to all of our listeners on our podcast and the viewers on YouTube. Uh, we're so grateful to, uh, have you joining us today. Kevin, it is great to get to see you again. How are you doing? Kevin: I'm pretty good, Daniel? Yeah, pretty good. It's spring in North Carolina. Daniel: Uh, spring is a good time. The trees are, are budding and the birds are singing and. The Kevin: Yes, yes, yes. In that order, yes. In terms of importance and pain, the pleasures are first and the pain is later. Where things like in Missouri, Daniel: they're good. They're good. Yeah. I'm looking out the window right now and seeing some trees butting and it, it, spring is a great time of the year here in our corner of the world. I realize it may not be spring for, uh, some of our listeners or viewers, wherever they may be. But, but, but here it's pretty awesome and, and, uh, grateful to get to see little signs of, of life returning. Kevin: that's right one. One hack I had read about video is you can take a sheet and hang it over your window to diffuse the light. Daniel: Oh. Kevin: So unfortunately, when I look out my window, I'm just looking at a very suss aged sheet. , right? Like it's not one in rotation because we had put that on a bed. So it's an older bed sheet that needs to be thrown out cuz it's just weathered and aged and I'm, that's all I can see. Daniel: So in my mind, I like to picture right now I'm picturing like an old like Star Wars sheet. Is it, does it have like screen Chewbacca? No, no, no. Kevin: no. I mean, there are weird possible, um, _Psycho_ bloodstains on it. So , there's that, but no, it's just, it's just a sheet. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: I also have to, speaking of your, your, uh, your studio decor, I gotta tell our, our listeners, those who may not be watching it on, uh, on YouTube, that I am, uh, I'm jealous of your studio decor, Kevin, you've got some cool stuff around you. I, so for those of you who aren't seeing the video, which is totally fine, what I see behind Kevin, this is just an indication of how cool Kevin is. There is a superman cape draped over your, your bookshelf. There is a, well, it appears to be a lava lamp, and I, I think, I know that you can control the color of that lava lamp. And then on the wall you are featuring the cover of, punk, punk Steam Frost. The Steam Frost Game. Right. The new Steam Frost Game. Kevin: It's Frost Haven, the Frost Punk sequel Daniel: Ah, nice. Nice. might have Kevin: is Frost Punk. It steampunk themed. It's called Steampunk in a icy age. So it's, it is frost punk. It is set in nine in the late 18 hundreds, the 19th century in England, and there was a global ice age and one area to survive because they had a massive coal tower to heat. An area is London, I think it's London or May, or, or it's named after London, and this is called New London. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: and this is a community that has survived a global ice age of the 18 hundreds. So they've definitely steam, it's steam ice punk is what it really is. Daniel: Okay, okay. Kevin: Yeah, I know. I'm so hip, like I didn't buy games for a while, I don't think, and then I got Frost Haven and Frost Punk, so I, I, I just, I'm so cool. I don't know what to do. Daniel: I You are so cool. I just, I feel considerably cooler just hanging around you for these few minutes, Kevin: and the Frost is also making it cooler Daniel: is, it Kevin: just by the nature of temperature differences. Yeah. Daniel: I gotta get some frost games going, Kevin: Right. It's gonna have been long Daniel: Well wherever, um, wherever you may be listening from or listeners or, or viewers, we hope that you are en enjoying a, uh, a, a room decked out with all sorts of cool things as, as well. Um, and today we are, we're, we're having a lot of fun here to get started. We're talking about, However, a, a really a a a a more serious topic, but an important topic and, and one that I'm so grateful, Kevin, for you suggesting. as you mentioned in our intro, this is the second edition our, , board game Faith AV Club, where we are finding videos online that deal with some sort of board game related theme. And then we're discussing that video here in an episode of Board Game Faith and kind of exploring kind of the spiritual re religious implications of that a And this week for AV Club number two, uh, we are considering a, a video called Playing Colonialism, uh, board game ethics that Kevin, you found on the, the Homo Ludens channel on, on, uh, on YouTube, um, which is a channel that explores the intersection of board games and history. Kevin: Right, right. Yeah. Homo Ludens is reference, well, we are homo sapiens. Right? Which is things, thinking creatures Daniel: That Kevin: from Latin, Latin, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Greek, Assyrian. Daniel: It it might Kevin: I think it's, I think it's Latin. Daniel: Klingon. Yeah. Kevin: on. So it's a play. Ludens is Latin, I think, for play. So beings that play, that's what Homo Ludens refers to. And, and it's a phrase, it's been around since the book in the, uh, Daniel: Earlier this century or last century, Lance. Kevin: 14 hundreds Daniel: wheezing. Right. Like a Dutch philosopher. I think his name was Uh, it Kevin: yes. Excuse me. Daniel: With called Homo Ludens. Yeah. This Kevin: Yes. Daniel: we are playing beings. Kevin: We're playing being, so if you're not familiar with the phrase, I wasn't at first, that's, that's the reference. So it's a bit of a, a nod to the theory behind play and board games. And then AV club. What does that stand for? Daniel? It stands for Daniel. Daniel: I, I, I believe it, uh, stands for, um, um, archaic Violins. No, it's, it's audio vi. We next week. Stradivarius? No, Kevin: various Daniel: it, it audio Kevin: out of tune. Does a Strat, various out of tune sound better than a non-ST. Various in tune Daniel: I think it, it, well may, but it's a good topic for AV club number three, archaic violins. Kevin: Okay. Daniel: but no, we're, we're, uh, AV for those of us aren't familiar with it is audio video and, and I think Kevin: Yeah, our audio visual, yes. Daniel: visual. See, I never, I, this is another side of how much cooler Kevin: There Daniel: but Kevin: used to be like closets. It was like the AV closet at a school or something and it's where all the audio visual material or, or things were kept, like VHS cassettes or TVs and VCRs or DVD players on, on carts. Daniel: That's right. That's Kevin: So, or, or as I recall, taking spin Spanish in like sixth grade, we had a, a camera with a film strip to show videos about Spain or Mexico or something, and that that would've come out of the AV closet that was locked up. Cause you didn't someone stealing it. Daniel: there was an AV club, which was a organization of Kevin: Yes, Daniel: they would offer me, like trained on how to operate these things. So to watch a video, the teacher had to contact a member of the AV club and Kevin: AV club. That's right. Daniel: the AV club ever in Kevin: Uh, no, no, no. I just went home and cried every day. That was high school for me. I was in the Cry Club. Daniel: I was. Oh, you, you too. Yeah. Kevin: Yes, I was. Yes, I was. Daniel: been friends. Kevin: I did. I was on the golf team, but we were so bad we never qualified to ever play. It was just us walking around talking and hitting like, I don't know that we even kept score. That's a, that's a good memory actually. Daniel: is a good memory. I like Kevin: It's like playing bridge and not, you know, and not wanting to win Daniel: As Kevin: just sort of Daniel: In this podcast. That's right. The point of games you have Kevin: is to play. So we were not gaming on the golf course. We were just hanging out, chilling. Daniel: Right. And that's, that's great. Kevin: Yeah, it was good. It was Daniel: So , this video, it's, it has two hosts, Fred Serval and um, Luis, uh, Aguasvivas. And they have four guests on this video. It's a just really people on this who, who bring great insight Kevin: top, top shelf people. Yes. And Fred is a board game designer and I think he's in France. Daniel: That was my impression. That was my Kevin: Yes. And then Daniel: English, but it's, yes. I Kevin: yes. So it's very, um, it's intercontinental and it's in English, but we've got various people, various backgrounds. Um, because one of the guests I think is Puerto Rican by background, Daniel: of Kevin: Perez descent. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: not sure where he, where he, uh, is home for him that he, you know, childhood memories are, whether it was Puerto Rico or, or you're, you're thinking maybe it was stateside. Daniel: right. I think he lives in New York, um, mine, but yes, the, the guest we're, you're, I think we're referring to is Jason, Jason Perez, who's Kevin: Yes, Daniel: talked about offline. Maybe we have a Kevin: that would great. I really, yeah, I think he's, yeah, I was very intrigued with his comments, so he's great. And Luis? Daniel: Go ahead. Kevin: Yeah. Shelf stories. Uhhuh , which is a YouTube channel. Daniel: that explores board games and ethics, so, which is Kevin: maybe we could do a hostile buyout of shelf stories, Daniel: I think he could buy out us probably, but we could. Kevin: shelf stories of board game. Faith Podcast. And Avivas, do you know what his Daniel: no, I Kevin: or background is? Yeah. Daniel: Um, whether he might be in France as well. I'm, I, I, I don't know. I , I, it should, we should say about Jason Perez, he was also the cultural consultant for the recent re-imagining of Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico, 1897. and we'll get into maybe a little bit of that later on about why that was, why that happened, or the importance of that. Brian Train was another panel, , member. He's a war game Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Uh, Mary Flanagan was probably the, the, uh, the keynote speaker of the panelist. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: the co-author of a book called Playing Oppression, which is, uh, a book all about and board games. And, and she really, her the panel said again and again, her book was really what inspired this panel discussion. Kevin: Wow. That's amazing. Daniel: was one of your favorite designers, Kevin, who was it? Kevin: Cole Wehrle I'm no expert but it's, he's doing board game design that, that borrows from war gaming, but also tries to be anti-colonial. Cuz he's, his PhD was on colonialism and imperialism in nine, I think 19th century Afghanistan. So he, he's, he's got interests. Daniel: Interesting. Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, Daniel: that really helps to explain his insights and Pax Pamir, this great game that he, Kevin: I think so. so. Yes. Yes. That we got to play together, although I couldn't quite remember the rules. Daniel: No, it was good. It was good, man. It was. Kevin: I love these rich games, but boy, you, you've put it aside for six months and you've really, everything's like a Oh, right moment, or at least for me, Daniel: Yeah. Well, you know, Kevin: complicated games. Daniel: the, the beginning of the video is they all acknowledge that they're, they come from a very North American perspective, uh, and all of them on this issue of Kevin: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel: And I think it's important just for us to acknowledge that you and I do not necessarily represent the most, uh, diverse perspective on this topic either. You know, you, you, Kevin: Sure. Daniel: we're both a, a couple of, uh, white men in the United States of America and Protestant, Christian, and middle class and, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and United Methodist. And so, so we certainly bring a diversity of background to this discussion, but I, Kevin: right? Daniel: I still think it's important discussion to have, uh, in any circle. And so Kevin: Yeah. We can still talk about it. Just acknowledge Yeah. Where we're coming from. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: yeah. But first, before we get to this, Daniel: Yes. Kevin: we need to open the mail bag. Daniel: Yes. I'm gonna open up the mail bag now. Um, Kevin: I'll know he is gonna do the horn Daniel, your mail does not arrive with horns. Daniel: mail bag. The mail bag. I shouldn't have made it out of, um, out of brick. Um, there we go. There's, there's the Kevin: I'm gonna pay your mail carrier to a horn one day just to mess with you. Hi Daniel. Have your mail. Daniel: Is, is it a listener spotlight this morning? , at the end of our newsletter, we give people opportunity to let us know a little bit about themselves. , sidebar, if you are not subscribe to the newsletter, please do so. If you want to in our link tree, and Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you if you fill Kevin: That's right. It's every two weeks. , it's just a couple of comments and show notes. So it's pretty casual. It's not a hard read. Right. So it's not, we're not gonna fill up your inbox and , it's another way to be connected. So, biweekly newsletter. Daniel: Yep, yep, yep. We don't ask for money, very often, by that I mean ever. Kevin: Right. Daniel: it's, it's fun Kevin: But we will take your money, Daniel: but we will, , if you offer it. , so our listener Spotlight is Kary. Kary. , we're so grateful, Kary, for you listening and subscribing to the newsletter. Kary is, uh, said that she is a teacher in North Carolina. she found out about Board Game Faith through Facebook. we asked, what's a game you're digging right now? She said she's really, she tried sequence recently for the first time and really enjoyed it. And I, I'm, and I was looking that up, that I know I always hear great things about the game. I'm not sure I've ever tried sequence. Have Kevin: that I think I have. We've played it, it it's a, or my family or, or a church. We played it actually, it's a, it, it looks like cards, right? Like a deck of cards is Yes. But it uses little, um, almost like dominoes. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. It is fun. It, it's a neat game. It's different. Yeah. I liked it. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: So I've only done it once, but I think it's a classic. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. So good, good choice, Kary. Kevin: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Daniel: also ask our, our listeners in this form, what is awesome about you, her, and she said her awesome superpower is that she can wake up at 5:00 AM which is a remarkable superpower. Kevin: Very Methodist superpower. To be honest. Daniel: It is, it is. And I was thinking that's, you know, I and North Carolina, she's an hour ahead of where I am here in the Midwest, so I mean, I, Kevin: To keep up with Kary, Daniel: she's getting up at Kevin: gonna have to give up at four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Daniel: special kind of human being. Kevin: It does. It does. Daniel: so more power. to you Kary. , I, before we were going online, Kevin, you and I are both talking. We can't sleep in. much anymore the older we get. But I think I would still be hard pressed to get up at 5:00 AM just naturally, I, Kevin: Yes. I guess if I, you know, like training for a marathon. If I train for it, I do it, but it's not, and and I'm usually up by six 15 and sometimes I'm awake at six. If I'm awake at 6:00 AM I'll just.​Get up, you know, it's quicker time. I mean, I, I can get to the coffee faster if I get up earlier. So, Daniel: That Kevin: um, there is a bit of that just bounding out. Daniel: it, like the next day you get up at 5 59 and then the next day 5 58 you know, by the summer you're getting up at five. Kevin: right, right and maybe if I get up at five, I will actually win at Frost Punk, the board game, Daniel: because you have the another Kevin: I haven't, I haven't Daniel: And then, and then finally we asked Kary, why do you listen to Board Game Faith? And she very kindly said the awesome hosts, which was nice of her. so thank you Kary. We Kevin: Aw. Oh Daniel: yeah. So thank you very much. so Kary, thanks so much for listening. We really appreciate, you're being a part of the board game, family, board game, faith, family, and, um, we, we appreciate, um, we appreciate your, your support and your care. And we, uh, and we love to highlight some more Kevin: can't spell care without Kary Daniel: You can't, you can't, it's right inherent to the name. that's exactly right. So, so, um, getting back to colonialism in, in board games, uh, a podcast, our podcast on the intersection of board games in religion and spirituality. So, Kevin, why is this, why would we be discussing this topic on a podcast about religion and spirituality? Why, why does colonialism in board games matter to matters of faith and religion and matters of the spirit, would you say? Kevin: um, I mean, board games tell a certain. , at least some board games. I, I think, I think there are kinds of board games that are very Daniel: war Kevin: abstract, such as sequence and this, it's not telling a major story that's really just trying to optimize points. But if a game is less abstract, it may be telling a story about a location or a place or a people. And that could be a game like Catan, that the story is you should go and develop and conquer and spread out. And the question becomes, is that a story that we are aware of and that we're comfortable with? Does it match our beliefs? And for re and all religions stress, some sort of notion of justice and compassion. That's fair. Right? Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. Kevin: And so it might be troubling if as religious people who. are obeying the commands or will of God or a sense of compassion in the universe or regard to social systems. Are we telling a story that maybe makes us uncomfortable? One way to, I think, unlock this is there's certain stories we wouldn't want to tell, such as how to be better racist Daniel: race, Kevin: how to be better Daniel: anti, Kevin: or how to, how to be the better Nazi. Like those are story, those are games no one would wanna play that has a moral code. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: So are there games that maybe go against the moral code that we are not, um, we're co not cognizant of because they're. , we just don't notice the story they're telling. They've crept in. And a weird bit too is board games are born in the Victorian era, the, the 18 hundreds because of the invention, invention of cardboard, modern board games, I should say. Board games been around for millennia. but modern board games come with cardboard, but they also come in an age of empires. So it's very quick to do games that are about wars and also about conquest, Daniel: Yep. Kevin: that's the era. Um, what would you add to that, Daniel? Daniel: No, well, I I just, that's a great insight. Yeah. Just a couple things. One, I I wanna circle back to what you just said about modern board games, the cardboard based board games being, uh, born outta the age of, of imperialism. Cuz I think that's a great launching off point for some specific points in the video. But yeah, I would just in terms of why it matters to matters of, of religion and faith and spirituality, I would just echo what you said, Kevin. I mean that I think all, religions teach, um, that, um, in one way or another, matters of compassion and kindness and mercy matter to God. Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: And, and, and, um, and is this a topic uh, helps us to in some ways in that understanding of compassion and un and um, and, and fairness and justice or, or not. It reminds me, uh, a little bit in, in Christian circles, some, um, people may be familiar with the rise of a particular school of Christian thinking called Liberation Theology in the 1960s and 1970s. some Latin American theologians, folks like Gustavo Gutierrez and others, who in some ways said something new, but in some ways, in other ways said something that's always kind of been a part of least, , uh, Judeo-Christian scripture. which is that God, as we read about God in. In the Hebrew Bible, in the Christian Bible, , seems to have a, a, an especially, deep concern for, persons who are experiencing poverty and peop persons who are, who are experiencing oppression or who are kind of living on the edges of the mar marginalized society. Sometimes the liberation theology talks about it kind of as God's preferential option for the poor. And, and we can talk about it many different ways, but, but it's just this idea that we encounter again and again and again, especially be familiar, more familiar with Judeo-Christian scripture, but perhaps other scripture as well in other traditions that, I mean the Bible just talks a lot about the experience of people living in poverty Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: matters to God, you know, and the, and, and the experience of people who are marginalized and how that matters to God. so if that matters to God and. and therefore it, it matters to or should matter to folks who are trying to, figure out what God's calling is in our lives, then, then it's hard to deny the, the implications for that, for issues of colonialism because Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: is kind of built upon this idea of systemic poverty and systemic marginalization and systemic oppression and, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: we, so I guess that's just another, another connection that I would, I would lift up in terms of why. talking about this on a board game and religion podcast. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: , but then I wanna circle back around to what you were saying, about, if it's right with you, Kevin, about, the modern hobby board game arising, out of the age of imperialism. Because it reminds me of maybe the first specific point to talk about from this video, which is a point that Mary Flanagan made in her book, which is the interconnection of mechanisms and theme in game, in Games. And, and what, what she said, which is a a, a thought I'd really never had before was in many cases you can't just retheme a game, , and take away the problematic nature of its mechanism. She, she said, in some ways these mechanisms, at least some mechanisms developed. To communicate a specific ethic, to communicate a specific morality. Kevin: Right, Daniel: and, and she makes the argument that mechan game mechanisms are not necessarily morally neutral. Kevin: right. Daniel: I thought that was such an interesting concept and I've Kevin: So can you come up with a specific Yeah. What, what, what do you think that might look like specifically? Daniel: Yeah. I, I think you know what she might say, and I, I don't wanna put words in her mouth and I haven't read her book, but I think what she might say, Kevin: But that's never stopped, Daniel from opining. So go ahead, Daniel: that's what a preacher does. A preacher makes a career out of putting people, voices, words in other people's mouths. Kevin: right. All Daniel: , what she might say, I imagine from video, for example, about modern board games, is that, , game where you have, , maybe kind of an army of workers that you deploy right? To different, two different kind of things. by the Kevin: yes. Daniel: placement games, right? Worker placement games, some of my favorite games. But, you know, if this were set within a, but she said, you know, maybe that, that mechanism Kevin: Frost Punk has worker placement. Daniel: I love worker placement. Yeah. , too. She, you know, but what she might say, for example, is, you know, that that whole mechanism is based on this idea Kevin: Yeah, I think you're right. Daniel: have agency. The workers Kevin: Oh, right. Daniel: to choose over their lives Kevin: Yes. Daniel: mechanism automatically puts us into place of Kevin: All, oh, no. Yeah. Daniel: your choice or your freedom, or your ability to do anything. I want you to do. Kevin: that's so good because I was thinking I would lean towards that the pro, the colonialism and board games is more about acquisition or competition, and I would've thought that Euro type games where it's more about work replacement or victory points were less colonial. But you've just enlightened me. You just schooled me that that actually work. Replacement can still be colonial in the sense of, you know, I'm the boss and I'm gonna make you, and all you citizenry have to do what I say. And they have no agency. They're just. Automatons? Yeah. Daniel: it was something I had not thought about either until really watching this video, but it's, it was, it's very thought-provoking. If, if our viewers have watched, encourage Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you know, I, I, I do remember as we're talking, another example she mentions, or one of them mentions, is one of the very first what we see as kind of modern hobby board games of our era. Catan. You know, that this idea of Catan is, it's built around this mechanism of you go to this, you go to this. This island that is supposedly, unoccupied. Right. Kevin: Terra Nullius, Daniel: terras. Uh, all right. I've got, I, I want, I wanna hear more about Terra Nullius as Kevin: I, I can't tell. It's a secret. It's like fight club Daniel: but, but she talks about specifically the robber mechanism in Catan, that you go to this un you go to this, this supposedly, unoccupied island. You harvest its resources, you exploit its resources, and then, and the supposedly unoccupied land, all of a sudden there's this person who pops up, who's the robber, who I guess maybe lived there actually after all. But See them. and now they take the resources from us that we took from their land, we call them a robber for doing that. Kevin: right? We hate them. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah. So, Right, right. So anyway, so she mentioned that as another example. You just talked about Terra Nullius. What's, what's Terra Nullius Kevin: That is a Latin phrase. Sorry. Yeah. It's a Latin phrase for an empty land, Daniel: Hmm, Kevin: like there's no one there. Right. So it's a null place. I, I think of the moon in theory. Daniel: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kevin: there's no life on there, I, I guess in, there might be places that are null places, but on earth it's actually. , is it fair to say there is no empty place cuz you still have life Daniel: I think that's fair to say. Kevin: And life is complex. So even if it's vegetation, if we take from the ve from the, if we take from the rainforest, it still impacts human life in difficult, problematic way, such as as impacting environment. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: so the earth is a, so maybe the moon not having an life or an ecosystem, and I'm just guessing here I am no astronomer or scientist, but would seem to me that that something like the moon, which is basically a big rock with some atmosphere and gravity, right? Does it have atmosphere but it doesn't have an ecosystem. Daniel: right, Kevin: everything here has an ecosystem on earth that is complex. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So, uh, even if there are no humans there, there's still gonna be impacts that are hard to foresee. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Everything is Kevin: typ, everything is connected. But typically there might, and there might be nomadic peoples that use the land, but they're not there currently or they don't have a system of private land ownership. And the idea that you can simply take it and win the game and do whatever you want, it is problematic and to glory in battles or, or, um, zero sum type things that I win by taking from you, or that native peoples are wasting resources on a land. So we're gonna do better by taking it and strip mining it will, will get more out of it. Daniel: Right, Kevin: it may involve like coal mining in West Virginia at one time, simply blowing up the top of the mountain . It's what they used to do to get to the coal and then you just plant some trees on top to make it look nice. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: But, um, but that is, that is a more effective way to get to the coal than the Native Americans. Sure. But is that who we really are? Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: that blow up land to get more coal to burn for stuff. Yeah. Daniel: the and, and, and are the long term implications of that Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: the, than the long-term implications of, of a different approach? Kevin: right. Daniel: approach that maybe doesn't Kevin: have you heard that, that that really plastic recycling doesn't exist it's very disturbing that plastic recycling was in part invented by the plastic industry because they were worried about the, the people were concerned about plastic and never going away, and the response by the plastic industry was to create the idea that we can recycle it. It can be recycled somewhat, but it's very expensive, difficult. It has to be clean, it has to be. The right type and the truth is that it's generally just not worth it. And so it, it's all a bit of a sham, which is really depressing. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: the re But by accepting it, we don't explore other alternatives Daniel: Right. That's a, yeah, Kevin: because plastic is cheap and easy. I read that one of the main uses with plastic are chefs cuz they go through so much plastic wrap Daniel: Ah, Kevin: it all just goes and you can't really recycle it. So you've got, we wanna keep it sanitary. We don't explore other options. we, so they create, you know, dishes have to prep beforehand, cover it in plastic wrap to keep it sanitary and it all goes in the trash. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: it's depressing. Daniel: Do you think there are any game mechanisms that are morally neutral? I think about, I've been thinking about this and I don't know the answer to it. In response to, to her argument, to fla against argument that, that at least some mechanisms have an inherent morality built into them. And think about like, you know, like the most abstract game of all. You know, I'm just as, I don't know what it would be, if you can imagine the most abstract game ever. I mean, do those mechanisms carry an inherent ethic of morality? Even Kevin: If they do, it must be very light. Correct. Like it's, it's a, it, it's not gonna make a big impact. Like I think of something like go, I mean, it's a competition, Daniel: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kevin: you really can't have a game with more than one person that isn't competitive Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: and you are taking from each other. But, so it seems like to me, if you took away even competition, there is no game. So I, I think there are game, I guess if you play go enough, it might in theory teach you to be very competitive and. , I guess it still has an ethic, but it's not Daniel: not Kevin: teaching a narrative. There's, it seems to me it's narrative and setting that really leads to problems. But I'm, I, I have not studied this in depth. Daniel: it's Kevin: do you think? Daniel: no, I, I, it Kevin: Like Gin Rummy, I don't see that Gin Rummy or card game with cards or teaching a ethic. Daniel: I think you're right that maybe, maybe the only, maybe the main ethic is it's better to have more points at the end than not. Kevin: Yes, Daniel: know, maybe that's it. You know, like it's that there's more value in having more points than the other person. I Kevin: but to Bernard suits his definition of a game that, that's required for a game. Otherwise, more of just a pastime. Like we could, we could sit around and crochet and knit, and if you play a game where you don't accumulate points, that's kind of what you're doing. You're just, it's more of a hobby. Daniel: Right, Kevin: It's the competition that makes it a game. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So we, to get rid of games, we'd have to rule out competition in sports. Daniel: Yeah. The, Kevin: I don't see that a prop. I'm sorry. Daniel: Yeah. Or the overcoming of an obstacle. Kevin: Overcoming of obstacle. Daniel: which, I mean, another way of saying competition. Kevin: Yeah. And, and so it could be a solo effort as Bernard Suit says in his book, the Grasshopper. It could be, I'm gonna see if I can take this route faster, like I'm gonna run home. And I'm gonna say, the obstacle becomes time and you're trying to beat your own time. So if, if we only played solo games, then there's no harm, I guess, to other people. But that's a lonely existence. Most people enjoy games cuz of the socializing Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: that's a huge influence. But I don't know what Dr. Flanagan would say about this. Daniel: yeah. Well, you know, a major component of this idea of the inherent ethics and morality of game mechanisms is what we mentioned earlier. Lightly on the sense of worker placement, um, recognizing agency, you Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: the sense of, um, within a narrative, a person's ability to make choices for themselves, you know, to, to that's shorthand for that is kind of agency. and this brings up a, one of the other major points of the video this contrast between agency and erasure, or erasing people or recognizing their agency. And I thought that was fascinating too, and I wonder if we could talk a moment about that, that, that I think Jason, Jason Perez was saying that, you know, game is an abstraction, right? Of some of, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: of something, right. E even the most narrative game. most in-depth game has some abstraction from reality. Otherwise, it would be real. It would be the reality, you know? And so anytime you abstract anything, you have to erase something. Right? And so his, Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: his, his, question was think about what you're erasing and who you're erasing, you know, and, um, um, to get to that abstraction. And are there ways Kevin: Interesting. Yeah. Daniel: are there. we have to erase, let's be thoughtful about who, what, and who we're racing. For example, he talked about another very popular game, ticket to Ride. one of the, again, foundational games from modern Voor Hobby and who, who doesn't lift Love Ticket to Ride. I love a good Ticket to Ride game too. We talked about, you know, think about, you know, the ar especially the original Ticket to Ride. Think about the era which this was set, you know, the, the spreading of the railroads across the United States in the original game. You know, he said, well, who, who are we erasing in that narrative? While we're, we're erasing a, good number of people we're, we're erasing the, the railroad workers, you know, the people who made that possible, most of whom were immigrants. , you know, all of whom were immigrants at that point. and then, and then also we're erasing the native populations that were displaced, you know, as these, as these railroads went through their lands. Then he, you know, he asked the question, what if we had a game where we didn't erase? We didn't erase. We chose to erase something else and we figured out a way to lift up the agency of, of the workers or the native populations or what are your anyway? Agency and erasure or eraser? Erasure. Erasure. I'm not sure. Kevin: Erase, erase your head the game Daniel: say erasure, Kevin: , no, absolutely. I, he's so right that, that a game has to abstract or cuz history is difficult and real life is complex like ecosystems, history and living have or multifactorial, there's various factors going on. There's elements, there's things to reconsider and consider. So a game has to make it simple. These are the rules, this is how it works. And so that's really great to point to. Okay, so what did you simplify? What did you remove? And, and the easy things would be to remove hard work, sweat, labor. Sins Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: and just make it feel like a game like that. That's a way to live with that reality is to gamify it. And, and it's a, a brilliant point, I think to vo to, to point to erasure in agency. One way game designers and games have tried to avoid this, or, or I shouldn't say avoid. One way is they've tried to grapple with this are the coin games, which are war gaming. And it's so interesting. It's so much of modern board gaming comes outta war games, but it's counterinsurgency COIN the idea of different people are at work in this battlefield and they Daniel: and they Kevin: with different rules Daniel: rules Kevin: as well as different win conditions so you get a much more historical approach of, it's not just like in, in say, risk or Daniel: like Kevin: strati where it's too. Similar forces banging against each other. But you might have the native peoples who are trying to accomplish this goal. You might have one group that's ship bound that operates this way, Daniel: way Kevin: group that's land-based, that doesn't have ships in a Navy, so they operate in a different way. And they're all, they all win in different ways. Daniel: Right, Kevin: not simply by conquest. Daniel: Right. Kevin: And so I've got the game, the only coin game, well, people say, and I think they're right, that the root game is a coin game that's been given an animal setting. And then I have the Cuba Libre game. And, and in that you learn about the mob as one of the guys you play. And there's two different groups fighting against the Cuban government as well as the Cuban government. And, uh, the US is looming again over this as well. So it's, um, yeah, it's really interesting Daniel: I, Kevin: the attempt to give agency. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. I remember Kevin: No. Daniel: Cuba, Libre as, as an example of that. And Brian Trane on the panel I think, sounds like he, his war games embody that, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: of counterinsurgency. And you mentioned root, um, I guess another example from Cole Wehrle, again, your, your beloved game, PAX Pamir seems to kind of turn this upside down, right? That, I mean, you could tell. in, and you know, PAX Pamir a lot more than I do, but I know we've talked about it briefly before on this podcast. But this game, can tell that he made the intentional choice to think about who am I gonna give agency Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: this game? And, you know, it could easily be a game, a story about how the British and the Russians or battling over supremacy of Afghanistan or whatever. But, but, but as I understand it, again, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but he subverted that and really made it a game about, , the, the indigenous population Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and how they're aligning themselves or how they're not aligning themselves, and how that really, it's the imperial powers that are treated as an asset and a resource Kevin: yes. Daniel: and it's the, it's the indigenous population that are really given the most agency in the game. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: fair Kevin: Absolutely. Yes. And, and the indigenous Afghani tribes are manipulating the empires in some ways to achieve their own goals. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: As well as it's card, a lot of it's card based and he's included historical figures and moments and peoples on those cards as some flavor text as well as what they actually do. So, , so what the card can do within the game is connected to that person or that there's a group of people. So you, it's, it's a really great game of, of learning some history as well as the reality of a long long decades struggle of various people within a limited resource, which is the land of Afghanistan. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: Uh, so Pamir is, is a mountain range in Afghanistan. So the title is referring to the piece of the Pamir Mountains, p a m i R. So, but Lar so more so even, actually I never thought of it. Even the title is sort of resisting the national borders that were assigned to Afghanistan, I guess by England. So it's not about a g an arbitrary geographical line. It's about a place, God, I never thought of that. Daniel: the more we Kevin: I hate, I hate Cole Wehrle so much. says smart. Daniel: so brilliant. Kevin: Can't wait to meet him so I can punch him in the face. Daniel: I wanna get facts Kevin: I want to beat that guy up. He's said it's too good. Daniel: I, I Kevin: it's great. Daniel: of that game now. The more we talk about it, the more it sounds great. Or I'm going drive to North Carolina Kevin: that's it. And play with me. Daniel: Night. you Kevin: It does have a solo variant and it's pretty good. The, the, there are, it's not easy, but it's not frustrating either. Once you get it down and the solo version, the person you're playing against is like a religious revival aspect that I think is based in history maybe. Daniel: interesting. Yeah. Kevin: So it's sort of like a, a coalition of various forces lining up within a religious figure. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: you're, it gives you kind of a basis of why you're struggling against them. Yeah. And it also, the player mat or the, the what, what would've been the player board is made out of cloth, which I understand is not only cheaper, but it also gives that Afghanistan feel, cuz it's got a sort of Muslim Arabic motif around this cloth play board. Daniel: I like that. Kevin: map. Yeah, I know. It, it, it, you put it on the table and it feels right. You, you know, you're playing something different Daniel: Oh, I gotta Kevin: just by the components. Yeah. It's a great game. It's not that expensive either. As I recall. Daniel: no, Kevin: a 60, I mean, Daniel: no. Kevin: it's like two Frost Punks or half a frost punk Daniel: Well, I wonder a, as you're approaching the, the end of our discussion, this video, if there might be, might. One other topic to talk about the video, if it's right with you, Kevin, which um, I found their, they got a little bit into this topic of what is helpful and unhelpful in the debate and in this debate, and, and I found that really And if it's okay with you, I thought maybe we could maybe just share a few reflections on that as well. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: offered some thoughts on what are helpful approaches to this issue and what are maybe less helpful approaches to this issue. Um, and, um, I can offer some thoughts on that. Or, or, or if you wanna start whatever you'd like, however you'd like to, to tackle that. Any initial Kevin: Yeah. Uh, I'll jump in. I'll, I'll lead that. Uh, you know what's helpful is to ask questions and to be self-aware and, and so what is this game teaching if it has a theme and a setting and a story, and is it a story I want to tell? And this reminded me back in our episode with Ali Carra, I think the first interview, we'll put a link down below cuz he's actually been on twice. He is Carra, K R A r, number two K on YouTube and Instagram. But he commented as a Muslim that he does not want to play games that promote winemaking or alcoholic drinks Daniel: Right, Kevin: that is, is against. , the Mu, the practice of Islam. He said some Muslims disagree with him, as I recall, that's his approach to it. And that's a great example of someone who says, there are games out there, there are things out there, but I don't wanna be a part of it cuz it doesn't promote, it's not part of my religious and ethical background Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: or beliefs or practices. So I think one of that is just being, you know, asking questions being aware of, of what you're doing. Daniel: Yep. Kevin: about you? What are some thoughts you have here? Daniel: That was a great, a great, excellent point. Yeah. Thank you. And I think you're right, asking questions and, um, lifting up Ali's feelings about, um, use of alcohol and games is a great, is a great example. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I, I think the part that really stuck out to me from the video was another point made by Jason Perez where I, I'm kind of paraphrasing him, but he says, essentially, it, it's really not helpful in this debate to say, well, the people who do this, they're bad people, right? Like, they, these are, these are bad people. Um, I, and as, as, and I think he said, you know what, what is more helpful to say? I mean, and what he means by like, the people who are making games that deal with, with colonialism, he said, you know, it's not helpful to be in the conversation with saying you're a bad person making this kind of game. he said, what's more helpful is. to talk about widening the audience, um, to, uh, and to debate and argue and talk about the merits of an idea, um, the value of a human being. Um, and, and I just found that really helpful. It reminded me of, um, uh, of, uh, an article I read. I may have mentioned it earlier on the podcast in a previous episode, but I don't think so, of a podcast I listened to recently. Not an article, a podcast I listened to on being, I mentioned in our newsletter. That's where I did with, uh, a journalist named Amanda Ripley. who says, you know, in issues of con high conflict and high conflict is where you just, you can't, you can't even fathom why. They understand why the other side believes what they believe. Uh, you just feel like they're irrational, subhuman somehow that Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: matters of high conflict, there's, there's nothing worse than you can do that you can do than to humiliate the other side. Right? And she Kevin: Right. Daniel: said, at the very least, let's resolve not to humiliate each other, right? Because nothing creates high conflict, more than humiliation. And by, by how I connect that to what Jason said was this sense of you, you're not gonna make things better by, by humiliating, by humiliating the other side in terms of making games better or the themes better. That's not to say that we say all ideas are equal. It's not, it's not to say that, there aren't some, um, um, unhelpful beliefs, wrong beliefs. We, we, we say that, we debate, that, we argue that we hold that, but we don't say that a person is somehow subhuman for, for any reason. Right. Um, and I found that, and I guess I, I guess full disclosure here, um, you know, we're, and you know this, you know this too, Kevin, uh, we talked, we've talked about this before, you know, our own, our own, our own denomination, you know, is, is we both come from the United Methodist Church, you know, is, is going through issues of, we're kind of going through a long slow motion split, you know, in the, in the church over issues of inclusivity and human sexuality. And there are, there are strong feelings on all sides of it, and I have strong feelings I'll outside of it, but, on my, in my beliefs, I got strong feelings about. But it strikes me that there's some wisdom in that too. Again, not saying that all ideas are equal. Not saying that, um, all beliefs are equal, but at least as a base point saying, we're not gonna treat the other side as if they're less than human. You know? And, um, and I just, I find there's some value in that. I think there's some wisdom in that because I, because I think that's what we see in, in Jesus too. You know, Jesus certainly didn't say, whatever you believe is fine. You know, Jesus didn't say all ideas are equal, but Jesus. But Jesus always insisted on seeing the humanity in other people. Right. You know, um, would correct them. would say, I disagree with you anyway. What are your, what are your thoughts? I, I found that haunting Jason Perez's comments on that. Kevin: Yeah, no, I think it's great and I think it is certainly right that it, if, if strangely, if your goal is to win the argument, if you want to con get the other person on your side, humiliation is not gonna achieve that. And, and we see that partly with, say, Martin Luther King, that the goal there is to convict. either the people that are on the sides or the people that are trying to ignore the issue or even convert the oppressor. And you can't do that if you humiliate them. Daniel: Right? Kevin: the, the idea is to change hearts. And certainly that's what Jesus did that, that he did not. Um, he, he certainly criticized all sorts of people Daniel: yep, Kevin: and went after Pharisees and hypocrites, but he, um, and it's fair game to criticize people's behaviors Daniel: yep, Kevin: and, and some argue that Jesus criticized the Pharisees because he's so close to them, like they're so close to being right. Daniel: Right, Kevin: they're the ones that are the most dangerous. Daniel: right. Kevin: so maybe he has a little sympathy for them because they are half right and terribly wrong in some ways in that time period. So, yeah, I, I do think, think that those are wise words, um, in terms of a debate that. Mud slinging and name calling, it isn't helpful. Um, and we want to change minds and hearts. I do wonder sometimes in terms of politics, if it is a really difficult battle, like Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: the Nazis are rising to power in your country, or Right. You're dealing with extremism. If they're playing dirty and you don't play dirty, you might lose. So at some points, I, I guess I don't wanna rule out humiliation if it becomes apocalyptic, but that's, I'm not sure about that. That's a dangerous thing. But, um, I have seen in politics, some people take the high road and then they lose Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: and, and uh, you know, at the end of the day it, what would you do to stop the Nazis or stop extremists or people that don't believe in the rule of law, we may have to do some difficult things, so, don't know. Daniel: great questions. Those are great Kevin: Yeah. And, and how do you know when you're in a difficult time that demands. , maybe Kimberly. I mean, how do you draw the line? There's, I don't know. I don't know. Daniel: How do you, how do you, to quote Bono my favorite, one of my favorite Theo theologians. Kevin: which by the way, he has a great thing on, uh, a tiny desk concert. You should see the, the NPR Tiny Desk. He just dropped it a few weeks ago. Him and The Edge. Anyway, Daniel: love Bono Kevin: was four. That was building. Daniel: paraphrase Bono. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: How, how do you, how, how, how do you, how do you stop the monster from taking you without becoming the monster Kevin: Yes, yes, Daniel: How, do you Yeah. I feel like, I feel like it takes a lifetime to figure that out. Kevin: Yeah. What if, what if the only way to stop the monster is to be a monster, Daniel: Yep. Kevin: but , then you're a monster, or how do you undo it? How do you get back? But, but, Daniel: Then once you Kevin: um, Daniel: there's somebody else out there saying, Kevin: mm-hmm. Daniel: can they stop us without becoming a monster? Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: become a monster, there's another, there's another group out there saying, how can they stop them? Would that become a monster and, Kevin: Right? But if the other side is mud slinging, can you really, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: do you struggle? Daniel: Struggle. Kevin: H how do you win? If, if, if they, if they are breaking the rules, you know, if the other team is, is pushing the limits of fouling and the basketball game and you refuse to do that, you're probably gonna lose. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: If they're kind of lean, they're not pushing, but they're leaning and you're like, well, we're not gonna lean. So Daniel: Right, Kevin: you, they're like, Hey, we won memorial game, but we lost the real game. And if it's politics and it's laws and people's lives and justice, yeah, I, I wonder, Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Great Kevin: an easy thing. Daniel: No, no. Kevin: Um Daniel: lifetime to, to try to figure out for Kevin: mm-hmm. , do you, do you think they mentioned, um, spirit Island? I was never sure if they were being really Daniel: really Kevin: critical of it or not. Daniel: not. Kevin: You wanna end with Daniel: Yeah. They all kind of said, Hey, spirit Island, as I read, as I heard them, Hey, spirit Island is a great game. We all have Spirit Island. It, it's a, it's a big improvement, but it could still be better. That's Kevin: Right. That's what I too. I think that's the criticism that Spirit Island, you are local spirits stopping the invaders, but, but the mechanisms are really, it's the same mechanism. It's just the roles are reversed. Daniel: right. That it, Kevin: I think that's the challenge. Daniel: the narrative that, you know, it's, you're. The point is to concrete the island. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: off the colonial, the colonizers. But I think their critique was you, the native population still has no agency in the game at all. Kevin: Right, Daniel: still, there's still no agency given to the people who live there. Kevin: right. Daniel: Um, yeah. Kevin: Yeah. You know, actually, strangely enough, that circles back to my point about politics. Like it may be. in certain situations, that's the only way to win, would be to adopt the tactics of the, you know, become the monster. maybe in some ways I can, I I can appreciate that idea. It's kinda like you, were they right to try to blow a Hitler with that plan? Daniel: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kevin: And, and it seems awful to have a conspiracy to blow up people that are in a room. In the hopes you would kill Hitler, but if you could kill Hitler, you could stop several years of awful suffering. Daniel: Right. Kevin: The, the plan that the Bon Hoffer was involved in. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: Um, so Daniel: Yep. Kevin: what I'm raising too, though. I, I, yeah. I, I wanna put a footnote to that. Daniel: yeah, no, it's really, it's hard stuff to figure out Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I know we need to go too, Kevin: Yeah. We do need go. That's right. Daniel: I, um, for another discussion, I guess, uh, Kevin: Mm. Daniel: aspect of that that I think about sometimes is framing it in terms of safety. You know, like, um, not humiliating the other person, but we're still not going to, we're still not gonna, we're still gonna keep people safe, you know, we're not Kevin: Right. Daniel: to do anything that makes this other person feel unsafe, you know, or to, whether that's a helpful addition to the conversation or not. You know, like Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: is, is, framing it in terms of how are we gonna compete people safe, a way to talk about it without feeling like we're becoming the monster. I Kevin: Right. Daniel: don't know. It's hard, hard stuff, Kevin. Kevin: stuff. That's why it's, uh, great to talk with you about it and great that we have listeners who are interested in these topics as well. So follow us on Instagram and we are board gay boardgame faith.net.com. Dot org. doac.uk. or just do board game Faith and we have a newsletter, dot com, dot reality Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: dot planet earth. Daniel: Yeah. . Oh, we go to our link tree to find how to sign it to our newsletter. Yeah. And, um, we'd love to have it. We would love to hear your thoughts on all this. As you have heard listeners, we've been struggling with this a lot. Um, please let us know what you think. We'd love to get an email or post on our discord on this or, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: or anything, but we, we would love to hear your thoughts. Help, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: um, help clarify things for us. Kevin: Yeah. Give us your thoughts and on YouTube you can comment and on podcast you can just shoot us an email. I mean, we will, um, look to maybe include your comments in a future episode. Daniel: Yep. Yep. Kevin, as always, a joy and pleasure to hang out with you. Kevin: Same here. Bye Daniel. Daniel: Thank you everybody.