Daniel (00:01) It's the joy of bullet journaling on this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. Hello! Welcome everybody to this episode of Play Saves the World. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:38) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:41) And it makes us so happy that you have tuned in to listen to this episode. Thank you so much for taking ⁓ time out of your day to be a part of this conversation. We hope that wherever you are, whatever time you are listening to this podcast, that you are well and healthy and safe and having a good day. And ⁓ we are just overjoyed to get to spend a few moments with you. Kevin, so overjoyed to get to spend a few moments with you. How are you? Kevin (01:13) ⁓ and it's just a prelude to Geekway. So it's just a prelude. Geekway is a board game convention and it takes place in St. Louis, Missouri. The gateway to the West as it was known because it was where they stopped off before they went West to do stuff to California. Where were they going? Gold? Daniel (01:17) It's a prelude to Geekway. What is Geekway? Kevin, what is Geekway for our listeners? St. Louis, That's right. They were going to California to do turnip farming. Kevin (01:44) California turnips, they are delicious. Yes. Yes, so the gateway to the West in May becomes the Geekway to the West about 5,000 attendees just a giant convention center with this wonderful hubbub of And that's all the people talking and laughing and gaming and very few people on phones because everyone is there to have a good time together So phones are great, but people are people are better than phones Daniel (01:46) Yeah, yeah, that's what they were doing. Yeah. You People are better than phones. I like that. That could be another one of our Play Save the World t-shirts. People are better than phones. I like it. I like it. We should do that. it is not, they are generally cold and they don't hold you back. they, yeah, that's right. And if someone calls you while you're hugging your phone, it, Kevin (02:14) So yeah, people are better than friends. You can hug a phone, but it's not as satisfying. ⁓ Fragile. Yeah. Daniel (02:43) feels like you're getting a little mild ⁓ heart murmur, yeah, which is just panicky. Then you get all panicky and ⁓ you decide not to hug your phone. Kevin (02:45) Right? That's right. He needs that. Yeah. Gen X doesn't need that. We've already got heart challenges, so we don't need any murmurs. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Daniel (02:56) That's forgetting of the age. We're already panicking about our hearts. And yeah, and so our listeners may or may not know this. So yeah, so you're in North Carolina, I'm in Missouri, and this is like one time of the year when we actually get to physically see each other and play games together and along with a lot of other wonderful friends. And it's just great. Yeah. Kevin (03:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah, Daniel's got, of course, friends, because it's Daniel. And they welcomed me in, and it's my second year, and I know folks there, which is awesome. I can just walk off the plane and have Insta friends, pretty much. And Daniel and I were friends way back in the 90s in college, and this, only, a couple years ago, got reconnected with board games, which is great. Yeah. Daniel (03:38) Yeah, the power of games and play. It's been a joy to reconnect. Yeah, so what's, you've been doing okay? Everything going all right in your life? Yeah, good, good. Glad to hear it, glad to hear it. Yeah. Kevin (03:41) That's right, that's right. I'm doing okay, doing okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And today we're excited. It was almost going to be a filler episode, but I think it's actually going be really interesting. I'm going to talk a little bit about bullet journaling. Daniel (04:03) Yes, tell us about this, Kevin. This has become an important part of your life. Kevin (04:07) It has it really has and it's it's one of those things that you know You try something and then sometimes it sticks sometimes it doesn't but this one really stuck for me. So Yeah, I think it's good to back up and ask why you want to journal itself And one of the things people often think of a journaling is you're gonna at night write this long Entry that's gonna go on pages and you get a hand cramp and it feels kind of I don't know, maybe forced as well as overwhelming. ⁓ So this is going to remind you there are different ways to go about writing out your thoughts and things. And we might say, ⁓ we might, and we will ask, why would we journal at all? And I think a good answer to that, and this is what the Bullet Journal creator, writer Carol says, is you kind of want a mirror for your soul. You want some way to see what's going on. Yeah, and if we're not careful, we lead lives of what's the line of... That we have an unexamined life. And so you're not putting words onto how you're feeling or what's going on. You have no sense of it. You're just living in the moment and you're not aware of, I'm actually... Daniel (05:06) I like that. Mm-hmm. Kevin (05:30) So you say you're overwhelmed, you don't know you're overwhelmed, or you're stressed, or you're happy. If you put a word on it, if you name it, then you tame it, as they say. So to verbalize it gives us a concrete notion of what's going on with your soul, and so you can see that in a word on a piece of paper. And it's there for posterity as well, which I want to circle back to. Daniel (05:48) like that. Do you have a sense of, mean, obviously because of that, because journaling is such a good way to have a mirror of the soul, to have a sense of naming perhaps these movements, feelings within us that are unconscious until we name them or subconscious until we name them. you? Do you have a sense of the heritage or the tradition of journaling in terms of a spiritual practice? I don't know this. We didn't talk about it beforehand either, like if it's been around a while or or because it seems like such a helpful spiritual tool. Kevin (06:34) I don't. Now, the Stoics, who are active like 300 BC to 300 AD, they talked about a daily meditation, which is a similar practice of saying, where did I lose my calm today? What can I learn from challenges of the day? So they were kind of doing that mentally. Marcus Aurelius, who was the emperor, famously kept a journal, and we have it. His ⁓ discourse is—wait—meditations is what it's called. Daniel (06:54) Right. Right. Okay, okay. Kevin (07:05) But you know, most people couldn't read or write. They didn't have paper. And it's good to be king, so he did. So I suspect it probably didn't start till the 1800s, unless you happen to be a monk or a nun or, you know, someone in an elite bracket. Daniel (07:10) That's a really good point. Right, that's a really good point. the capacity, the resources needed to journal probably weren't available to the mass markets until the modern era. Yeah, that's it. Kevin (07:32) Mm-mm. And you can do it mentally, but here's the catch. You won't remember what you were thinking six months later. So the advantage of some sort of paper or digital system is you can go back. Versus if you name it as you're going to sleep, which is great, and this isn't necessarily for everyone. It just depends on whether it's helpful to you. I guess everyone needs some type of mirroring. Let me say that. I think everyone needs a way to... Daniel (07:41) Right. Right. Right, right. Kevin (08:02) verbalize their life, but it doesn't have to be a journal. It could be just talking to a friend or a spouse or something on a regular basis, a therapist, ⁓ pastor, rabbi, that kind of thing. Daniel (08:17) toward the end of not having an unexamined life. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It reminds me of, I'm a fan of the Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, who wrote a lot. He died over 50 years ago now, but yeah, I think he's not the only one who said it, but I think at some point he said something that he writes to. Kevin (08:22) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (08:44) find out what he believes, right? Or you just, you write to, or was it C.S. Lewis or Brene Brown or somebody? Anyway, some wise, many wise people probably said that, that you write to find out what you believe, which makes sense. Kevin (08:46) Mm-hmm. Right, right. Right. Yeah, we, yeah, you don't know till you have to put words on it, what's going on in your life in terms of busy or feelings or just what needs to get done. You know, reminder, pay the taxes or send in that important document. if you trust yourself to remember, you may remember, but interestingly, if you commit to it somehow by Daniel (09:08) Yeah. Kevin (09:29) Writing it down as a to-do list, you're much more likely to get that done, which means you'll not spend time worrying about what you're forgetting, but you can get those things done, and then you have more time to play, right? If you're keeping track of your duties. Daniel (09:48) Is journaling a ⁓ corrective, a balance toward our propensity to to not remember the past accurately, or to not remember our own interior life accurately. mean, it seems like a theme I hear you talking about. Kevin (10:09) Yes. ⁓ Daniel (10:18) Like, it's almost a corrective, right? Yeah. Kevin (10:18) Yeah, no, you're it is a corrective because as we know now we don't really remember things. We remember the memories of things. And so the story you tell about last year has probably subtly shifted. And it's not that it's not true. It's just you've highlighted certain things because you're remembering them a certain way. In that movie Inside Out, you get that idea, right? Like some memories are deep memories and stored. Daniel (10:28) Mm. Mm. Mmm. Kevin (10:47) and other memories are forgotten. So yeah, you end up misremembering just naturally. And we, of course, we are unstable beings in a lot of ways. We're always shifting and changing and evolving. And ⁓ it's hard to remember what it was like when you were feeling depressed last June. It was a year ago, for example. I'm just making that up. But if you had strong feelings, you think you remember, but you don't. Daniel (10:55) Mm-hmm. Kevin (11:16) If you can go back and access that and you may even forget what was really setting you off and you're like, yeah, it was this event. And what's interesting too is you'll see if you practice this, you'll be able to track not only how you were, but also how you've grown. And that's the missing component. I think if you're not keeping a record and going back to it is you really get to celebrate Daniel (11:36) Mm-hmm. Kevin (11:46) the ways you've changed. And you won't remember all of them if you only trust your old noggin. ⁓ Because you know how we are, we tend to downplay our successes sometimes, or we play up other people's good fortune or our bad luck, we distort things in a lot of ways. And so if you have this honest record, you can correct... Daniel (11:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (12:13) that story to some degree and also see like, that's that thing I was really worried about. I don't even think about it anymore because either you succeeded or it was something you didn't need to worry about anyway. And of course, we get that in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus is like, why are you worried about stupid things and don't worry about tomorrow? Daniel (12:20) ⁓ Yeah. Right. Kevin (12:36) But we are, and so you get that little reminder of, yeah, I was all worried about this thing two months ago and then it got canceled anyway, or it turned out just fine, which is that ongoing lesson to quit worrying because it doesn't really do much. It does a little good, but not very much. Daniel (12:52) What was that quote you told me previously about like worrying is facing problems twice or something like that? Kevin (13:00) Yes, someone said that to me yes If you worry about a bad thing and it does happen that means you suffer it twice and why would you want to do that? Yeah, not some level worry is okay because it does prepare like what if I forget my shoes We don't want to forget your shoes for your gym trip. So you set them by the front door So worry has a little place, but it's only like 10 % of what we think it needs probably Daniel (13:10) Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Kevin (13:31) Yeah, so the story of your life, you get to write it if you're... You really get to see it if you're writing it and if you're tracking it. Daniel (13:31) I want Mm-hmm. There's power in. creating that narrative that tells us who we are. It makes me think about, I mean, I know we're not talking about this per se, but journaling, if you think about kind of the role of journalism in kind of our collective storytelling as well. I mean, that's good journalism at its best kind of helps us to do as a society what you're talking about journaling doing for ourselves that, know, of accurately Kevin (13:49) Mm-hmm. Hmm. ⁓ right. Yes. Daniel (14:16) accurately as much as we can remembering the past, right? Like, you know, if we could say, ⁓ back then things were different or whatever as a society. And it takes journalism to good journalism to be able to say, no, it wasn't like that. Or yes, it was like that. Or, you know, just need it to in the absence of ⁓ of accurate journalism, we lose that capacity as a society to to kind of look back. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Kevin (14:20) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Hmm, a D journal? Daniel (14:48) I do, I do, but not nearly to the extent that you do. I have journaled for most of my life. ⁓ Well, but what it is usually is just like three or four lines in know, a, know, ⁓ Kevin (15:02) Well, you've turned on more than me then, so in terms of your span of your life. Daniel (15:16) Aligned notebook rule, you know where I just kind of and and they're often they kind of put in the phrase of in the form of prayer, you know, like kind of a prayer at the end of the day just thinking about things that have been going on I a guiding model for my journaling for a while now that I learned from my friend Chris I Mean it's Unique to me or or us Kevin (15:26) Hmm. Daniel (15:45) It's just, you know, this gratitude journaling, but. think as he presented it to me. and I have fallen away from this, was like, you you write down one thing you're grateful for for that day, but then there's this rule that you can't, ⁓ you can't repeat anything that you've done before. ⁓ And for a while, that was a really fun and helpful exercise because, you know, ⁓ because after, you know, you write, I don't know, food. Kevin (15:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Daniel (16:22) you know, and then your family and then after a while you kind of run out of the really obvious things and ⁓ and it's I found it a helpful exercise to try to really dig into every day like okay what's what's something good today that I've never thought about being good before you know what that that I've never thought about the benefit of it being my life yeah yeah yeah yeah so then you even get into like you know Kevin (16:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's about noticing. You have to notice something, yeah. Daniel (16:51) light bulbs and indoor plumbing and you know, but I've done that for many years now and and and yes, I'd be lying if I said I don't repeat things anymore, you know, sooner or later, I repeating things but yeah, so that's been my extent, but that's not bullet journaling. I'm Kevin (17:14) But that's part of it. You certainly can list and that's so, you it seems a little, I don't know, the outside a gratitude journal seems like it would be unremarkable in some ways, but it really is quite remarkable because we just don't notice and we pay attention to negative and crises. if you find yourself looking for the helpers, as Mr. Rogers said, right, during a crisis, if you can see the good. Daniel (17:15) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (17:42) in anything. It's just a superpower in terms of just being aware of that you're alive and able to think and enjoy the world is astonishing. And there's lots of folks that are dead that wish they had that and they don't. Daniel (17:45) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's not to a person with the hammer. Everything looks like a nail. whatever, whatever your, if gratitude is your tool, you start looking, you see those things more. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (18:04) Yeah, yeah, that's it. You see those and if you're actually tracking them, which is a commitment that you're going to verbalize it, you're going to say it, then yeah, it starts to show up. I've been doing yoga at the YMCA on Saturdays and she had us one time. She's like, pick a color and I'll name the things and look for that color this week. And I went with purple and I was like, that's stupid. Cause then I couldn't think of anything purple. But then a few days later I saw like a purple flower. I'm like, ⁓ and it reminded me like, right. It's just this nice little callback to connect with the earlier moments and you start looking for a certain color or I don't know, which is kind of like a game. Yeah, it is a bit like play, right? It is a game. It's a game. Daniel (18:46) That's so cool. I love that. It is a game. Yeah, it's a game. Yeah. That's a playful approach to life. My mission or my secret objective today is to find purple things or to find things to be thankful for. Yeah. Kevin (18:56) It is. to find purple things in the midst of going to the grocery store and loading the dishwasher. I'm going to find purple. Yeah, and purple was hard because at the time I was like, I should have done like red. So like, what is purple? I don't know. It is. Daniel (19:13) Purple is such a delightful color. Yeah, yeah. Do you think we're are are we? I don't either one of us are evolutionary biologists, of course, but I'm trying to think about studies I've read or are our brains, our hearts predisposed to to focus on the on the negative on the on the do you have any thoughts, reflections on that? Kevin (19:28) Hmm. I mean, there's that whole school of thought of it does keep us safe. So to me, it's very speculative, but it does make sense that, that keeps... Looking for the negative is gonna keep you alive. Like if you think of ⁓ The Walking Dead or something, watching out for zombies or in our world, watching out for bears and things, it will keep you alive longer than being like, look, a flower, and then the bear attacks you. Daniel (19:57) Right. Kevin (20:12) Probably does have a little survival bit, but I don't know if that explains it all. Daniel (20:15) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Kevin (20:22) But yeah, you learn if you think if your life is a story, that you and I are a story, we tend to forget the plot. I mean, you'll remember the big moments. You'll say, OK, I graduated or I got married or I had a child or I started this job. So you'll remember certain, but you won't always remember how you were feeling or think if your life is a book, because a story with chapters. so nice to be able to have a sense of the plot. And occasionally just to see that, my grandmother had this on her wall, today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday and all is well. She had someone to knit it. I don't know if was she did herself or someone else, but that idea of seeing that... Daniel (20:50) Yeah. Hmm. you Kevin (21:13) You've... You went through some bad stuff and it all ended up being okay because you're still here. Daniel (21:19) Today is the tomorrow we were about yesterday and all is well. Sounds like you've got a cool grandma. Kevin (21:26) She was kind of cool. She was kind cool. Daniel (21:29) Can you, would you feel comfortable sharing? Can you think of anything? You don't have to like, some examples of ways that journaling has helped to help you to kind of discover the plot of your life. And if you want, I'm putting it on the spot, I'm sorry. We didn't talk about this. Kevin (21:42) Mmm. Yeah, I think I'd have to actually be flipping through them. I wish I'd done a little research to give an example. But you can imagine, yeah, you were worried about a... Daniel (21:53) Yeah. No, no. Kevin (22:01) You missed a bill or something and you're gonna have to pay a late fee and it was wrecking your life, right? Because you're gonna have to pay Or something or you had a big tax bill that wasn't expected and you had to draw up a thousand dollars and it really and you're really upset and a couple years later you probably don't even remember it which means you know, like Okay, you have more money and it kind of sucks. What are you gonna do about it? There's nothing you mean. It's either hire a lawyer or Daniel (22:17) Yeah. Kevin (22:28) try to find an accountant or you just write the check and groan. But why would you worry about it? there's nothing you do about it. I guess you could live off the grid or something, become a mobster. Daniel (22:32) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Kevin (22:43) I think it's that sort of bit. It's just realizing that there is a part of our brain that's always looking for problem, especially if you're wired for anxiety like I am. It's often looking for problems so it can be occupied and you really want to try to tame that because it create its own problems. to being a little more circumspect about, today's worry might be like the one three years ago, and again, it'll be okay. Daniel (23:14) When you journal, do you think? guess I'm thinking about. my own experience, guess, but I, that's true. That's true. Unlike, unlike anyone else. I find one of the struggles, I love journaling and I recommend it to, I've recommended it to many people and it's a helpful spiritual tool and I'm really ever talking about it. I have found one of challenges of it for me though might be kind of like. Kevin (23:28) That's all anyone's ever doing, Daniel. It's okay. I'm not even listening to you right now. Daniel (23:50) you know, yes, you like, you know, I can't, on the one hand, I want to think of something that I'm grateful for, you know, it's a right now what I'm grateful for. But then I also. Kevin (23:57) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:01) write down, often find myself writing down, you the things like you're just saying, you know, like I'm worried about from the day that I feel like I messed up, you know, everything like that. Does it? My worries is that sometimes at least in my experience of it that I I also use it as a lens to think about, OK, what bad happened today? You know, like what like naming some bad things that I might not have named without the practice of it. Again, that's I don't think that should prohibit us from doing it. I think the value Kevin (24:07) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:32) outweighs that risk. I don't know, is that something, does that resonate with your experience or? Or like, that maybe I name bad things in there that I wouldn't have named necessarily, even brought to my consciousness without. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:38) Wait, what's the risk that you'll name bad things? Why would that be a risk? If that's better, if you name it, you can tame it, right? If it's unmoored, you're just, that's general anxiety or just general, right? But if you can get to like, why am I anxious? So yeah, if you can say, I am sad today, then you're gonna be a little less sad. Daniel (24:56) Mmm, that's right, that's right. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Kevin (25:06) You're still sad, but you will feel better if you can put a label on it. So yeah, I think it's okay. And again, you get to look back at your struggles and some there are seasons in life and some life seasons are hard. And ⁓ that's something to mark in the story of your life as well as hopefully you're at a point where it's changed or it will change and then you get to see that. And then it makes you grateful for the fact like, hey, I had this terrible Daniel (25:10) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (25:35) year a few years ago and now things are so much better and I should be grateful that, look what, as well as, you you feel bad for other people that have challenges. You're like, yeah, I remember, I remember being sick with the flu for a week and it was really terrible when I go back and look. I was just writing, I want to die. I felt so sick or, you know, an example you were asking, we're fortunately at the stage with the kids where they can drive. Daniel (25:38) Here we are today. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (26:04) We've got two drivers out of the three kids and it's so great. And it was something that drove me nuts before always having to get them places. The taxing service and, but it's so easy to take it for granted. Now I'm just used to being able to do what I want again. And I need to be grateful that, hey. Daniel (26:12) Hmm. Kevin (26:25) ⁓ this was really hard before and it eventually, that too came to pass or that season changed of driving them everywhere. Now I get to enjoy freedom in a way that's really great. Daniel (26:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (26:41) Yeah, so bullet journaling just to get a little more nitty-gritty the idea of it is it's really a lap a rapid logging It's like a list. So it's getting its name from bullet points and you know the recommended method and if you go online and look YouTube and on the internet you'll find All sorts of variants, but the guy that started it his name is Ryder Carroll And I don't know if he's in witness relocation. It's a very odd name, but our wide der and then Carol like ⁓ C-A-R-R-O-L-L. But he came up with it to help deal with his ADHD is what he says and it helped him to focus. So he came up with this little system of there's different types of symbols and you can go little crazy or just keep it simple but the idea is you're really just creating little lists for the day and for the week and for projects. So it's real simple, lean and mean. So you would... specifically write like today is the 12th, so you'd have a piece of paper or a notebook or a journal or index card you'd write 5-12 and then you would just start logging, okay, 11 o'clock record play saves the world with Daniel. 7 40 a.m. I did have to take Ellie to school this morning so take child to school. And then you might write feeling anxious because it's a busy day. Daniel (28:09) and you do this before the day or is it done in retrospect? Kevin (28:09) and then You do it throughout the day. It's just you can do you know the the best that what they said Yeah, writer or Carol would say is the best is to do it in the morning at the end of the day But you know life's messy. So sometimes I might go a few days and I have to catch up and I didn't enter anything But it's kind of just tracking what's going on. What are the things that you need to do? Need to go to the grocery store need to get a haircut So you track feelings actions thoughts, you know, I wonder if I'm Overcommitting myself and why do I always do this? So you might ask questions to yourself And so it's just a running list of these items and they don't have to be in any particular order You're just getting them out of your head. You're getting them onto paper. You don't have to write full sentences ⁓ It can be as more detailed as you want and lots of people like me would use I use digital stuff, too I've got a we've got a good all bunch of Google calendars and I've got a digital to-do list I'd have a hard time only being bullet journal. But I use some things in it and it's it's interesting. I don't know if you've had this Daniel, when you write it out by hand it definitely commits it to memory. Daniel (29:16) Mm-hmm. Kevin (29:28) But if it's digital and you type it, it's just so different. Daniel (29:31) Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I actually had... Yeah. This might sound a little weird, but actually I had a revelation just a few years ago. I was writing something on a piece of paper with a pencil in this very quiet environment. And it all of a sudden struck me how delightful the sound of pencil on paper is. Like it was just... Kevin (29:34) Yeah, and the science, they've studied it for note taking. Daniel (29:59) You know, just the sound of the little graphite on the paper. And it's just so delightful. And yeah, there's something, like you said, it's very kinesthetic about it. That's just, it felt real and ⁓ physical and it was great. Kevin (30:16) Yeah, that's a real question of taking the time to write that down and is it worth it? And yeah, I have found it strangely is despite the fact that I'm technological and got all these gadgets. I appreciate getting old school like that, being focused, writing stuff you need to do. And interestingly, what the recommended system is, Daniel (30:34) Hmm. Kevin (30:44) for your to-dos, if you don't accomplish it that day, the next day, you have to write it again. And you're like, well, that's a waste of time. And that's the point. Because the question is, why haven't you done it? And if you find it, yeah, if you find you keep dragging your feet, well, then the question is why? Daniel (31:02) So at some point you can just say, I'm not gonna write it again. I'm just gonna let it go. Kevin (31:06) I admit I'm never going to do this. I am not going to make this phone call and just mark it off like delete it. Is that nice? Because a digital one you can just add, add, add, add forever. But if you have to write it out every time, it makes you ask yourself, why am I writing instead of doing this? Daniel (31:11) That is good. That is good. Yeah, I like that. I find interesting in our show notes, also mentioned, you know, another maybe advantage of the physical page versus a digital page is that if you don't mind saying more about this, but as I understand it, say more about it. As I understand what you're saying here is that on a physical page, we'll maybe start with digital. With digital, a digital page can go on forever, right? And so there's no constraint of space, but if you're writing something on the physical page, you're constrained. Kevin (31:47) Yeah. Daniel (31:53) and that there's maybe some benefit to that. Would you mind saying more about that, please? Kevin (31:54) Yes. Yeah, well, you just see, I mean, you're like, God, I'm stressed. I wonder why I'm stressed. And then you're like, well, look how busy I am. And you could see that digitally, but somehow when you're writing it out and you see it as you're saying on a piece of paper or you flip back and you're like, look how much has been going on in my life. So maybe that's a sign to like make some changes or cut yourself some slack. might be a Chick-fil-A week. Like you're just going to be at Chick-fil-A a lot. Daniel (32:17) Yeah. Kevin (32:24) And not try to say, okay, I'm gonna cook meals and I'm gonna save the world because that might not be the week for it. So yeah, there's a sense of constraint as well as if you have a digital to-do list, and again, I have one, but if you mark it off and you haven't erased it, it's like you didn't accomplish anything. Daniel (32:25) you Kevin (32:45) If have it written and you get to and the recommended is it's a little bullet and then you put an X through it when you finished it and you can do it every you want but that's what Ryder Carroll recommends. You get to see like holy cow look at all the stuff I did today and you get to take a little mental victory lap. Yeah. Daniel (32:47) You get to cross it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. And it's so satisfying to mark it off and cross it off versus you're right. If you just delete it on your to-do list, you never see it again. There's no record of you having accomplished that. Kevin (33:14) And you're just going to put something else on there and you're not a machine, right? You're going to need rest and relaxation. You're not an AI. ⁓ Daniel (33:16) Yeah. Have you ever made a to-do list? Because I'm asking for a friend. Have you ever made a to-do list where you've already put some things on there that you've already accomplished that day so that you can immediately cross it off? Like maybe even write to-do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (33:33) Probably. Oh, absolutely. I think that's actually wonderful. I think it's wonderful because you should give yourself credit. You deserve the credit. Yeah. Yeah. And I do that and do the bullet journaling. Sometimes again, I didn't do anything yesterday. And so I catch up. I mean, I didn't enter anything. So I catch up and I'm writing and I'm like, oh, yeah, I mowed the grass. So, yeah, I deserve points for that. I get a star. I did mow the grass. Yeah. Yeah. And so and here but here's the Daniel (34:01) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (34:07) Here's the best bit besides getting it out kind of vomiting out all the stuff that you've got to do and your little things on your mind so you don't have to worry about them because you've written them down and if you go back and look they'll be safe. But at the end of the day or the next day or something you're gonna give that day a title. Whatever is the most important thing from that day and it could be I was in a great mood today or it could be I got that project completed or it could be you know, whatever. I don't know. But you're going to Geekway. And then you have a special page in it that's a monthly page for June and on that it has well for June 30 lines and you rewrite the title for that day. And at the end of the month, Daniel, at the end of the month you go back and here's the bit with journaling you don't want to just write and never go back. So at the end of the month you do a little monthly review and you read all the titles for every day. And that's where you get to see the plot of your life. And at the end of the year, you're going to do it for the whole year. And it's just astonishing the stuff you'll see. like, oh, I forgot about that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So you get to see this little plot line of what's going on. So that is actually my favorite bit of bullet journaling. And other people may have other favorite bits. But doing that title, it's just really interesting. Like, what would you title today? What would you verbalize its theme or message or celebration or? focus and and what will you think in three weeks about that that's astonishing Daniel (35:42) much do you, I love that. How much do you feel pressure to make the titles unique? And I guess I'm projecting like I feel like if I did that, would feel like I would, my worry is I would name most days the same, you know, because it just gets like you get up and go to work. got to, I love the idea of it. Do you encounter that tension or? Kevin (35:51) Yeah, yeah. I guess on an intuitive level, I just go with my first thought. so, yeah, you wouldn't want it to be go to work. It would be had a great conversation. Something happened at work, hopefully. So it's a bit like the noticing. What's the one thing you really noticed today? You noticed that you were in a good mood or at work, you had a great conversation with someone and that's what you call it. So it's not, you know, it's whatever has the most meaning to you for that day. It's not, it's not a summary. It's the highlight. Daniel (36:06) Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah. So in a physical bullet journal, there would be a page at the beginning of each month, then there's a page for each day of the month, and then maybe like a page for the year. Kevin (36:47) Yes. We do it as you go along. you would own, know, in June you would have two pages really where one is the titles for the whole month and one is like a to-do list for the month, like larger projects. You know, gonna get the oil changed at some point this month. And then you would go forward from there writing as you go, however much space you need for each day. You don't write ahead of time. Does that make sense? Daniel (37:12) Okay, yeah, So, okay. Kevin (37:15) June 1st may take up two pages and then June 2nd might be three lines and June 3rd then so you don't know how many pages each day will take. So you don't pre-fill them out. You do it as you go along. Daniel (37:25) So you. Okay, so these pages are not pre-printed either. not like... Okay. Kevin (37:31) No, you can use any note, but that's the beautiful thing. The bullet journal notebook is great and I really like it. I think it's well worth it, but you can use anything you want. This is just a way of writing. It's almost like a shorthand or system. So you can use any old notebook or index card you have. You don't have to spend any money on this. Daniel (37:44) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Neat. Neat. Kevin (37:52) which is really beautiful, yeah. Daniel (37:55) I like it. Kevin (37:57) Yeah, and part of this, and there's a great quote... ⁓ Well, let me back up. Before I get to the quote, yeah, there's a logging, there's a monthly, and then, of course, after you finish June, then you would create a July. So once you've done June, you don't want to do July before you finish June because you don't know how much space you'll need. See, you're always kind of in it. You're not pre-filling it out too much. ⁓ But you also could have a special list for a project. Like, you're planning to go to Geekway, so you need to... If you're me and you don't live nearby, you're going to buy plane tickets and you might need to look at where you're going to stay and you need to remember to pack a certain game in your carry-on luggage. So you might have a list that's special. So you have a Geekway list. And at the beginning, you can have an index and say Geekway page 47. And the next year when you go to Geekway, you can go back and look at the old list. Daniel (38:52) yeah. Do you, do you put, do you put work things in this bullet journal as well? Like, okay, I have to visit the hospital. Yeah. It's whole life. Yeah. Kevin (39:00) I do, because it's my whole life and that's what he recommends. Yeah, you wouldn't want to keep track of it. You should just be your life. But some things that it's not where I'd rather make it digital. Daniel (39:09) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (39:11) so I kind of move between them. I don't have it in both places. I just live in both. Daniel (39:14) Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Kevin (39:18) So I have, you know, like I have a reminder, I recycle every two weeks. I have a digital reminder. So it just pops up every two weeks, take out the recycling. It's not worth it to me to put that in the bullet journal, but you could. Daniel (39:25) Hmm. Yeah, to journal. Sidebar, I also have I have an alarm that I a reminder that every two weeks to take up recycling. However, Kevin (39:37) Hmm. Daniel (39:43) We had ⁓ the lowest level of tornado. What's it called? F1 maybe? Is F1 the weakest or is it the strongest? maybe is it a formula we're saying? Anyway, it's a kind of tornado. It's the weakest form of tornado. We had... Kevin (39:55) I that was a racing car. thought that was Formula One racing. I don't know. I don't know you're talking about. good. Daniel (40:10) The weakest form of tornado here where I live. Actually, it's just a few blocks. It just went a few blocks from where we live here a week or two ago. We're kind here in the Midwest. and in the. get a fair number of those. Thankfully, you know, no life was lost from this one. Anything like that. Not not a lot of damage, but. Probably some of the most extensive damage it was that this tornado. went northeast of the city and it just seemed like to have a vendetta against recycling. Like was just, it's just like, like this, this tornado existed because it hated recycling. It just kind of, it just very lightly skipped on the ground until, until it hit our city's recycling center, northeast of the city out in the country and completely destroyed it. It completely destroyed the recycling center. And then it, and then it just kept on, and then it went away. Kevin (40:57) No. Daniel (41:10) By far the most damage it did was to destroy our city's recycling center. Now, this city of 110,000, 20,000, 50,000 people, we have no recycling and ⁓ they are not sure when we'll get recycling again. Maybe in the, it might be like years before we get recycling back in before they can rebuild this recycling center. That is what they call a tangent. Kevin (41:39) Right, right. That is, yeah. That was a good one. That was a good one. It is funny how the tornadoes do tend to jump around weirdly. Daniel (41:39) And anyway, anyway, so that was a tangent. But yes, yeah, anyway. They seem very, it can be very select. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (41:52) because we've had like a microburst something storm and there's just like one little bit of a road that it trashes and every one street over is totally fine. ⁓ A micro storm of some sort. Yeah, weird, weird stuff. Daniel (42:03) Yeah. So reminders about recycling you would not put in the bullet journal. ⁓ what you might put in the bullet journal is, a tornado today destroyed our town's recycling center. Kevin (42:10) Not for Daniel. Not for Daniel. And I'm glad no one was hurt. It didn't hit me. Daniel (42:22) And I'm glad no one was hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (42:28) Yeah, so bullet journal is fun and I've tried different things. I guess I've always been curious about systems and I'm a bit of a, you know, I like trying out new stuff. So I've tried different little productivity systems and I'm the kind of person that finds it fun to start a new system. Daniel (42:52) Kind like a game, right? Yeah. Kevin (42:54) It is. I had thought of that. It is a game to sort of see how it works, the software, the system. And I think somewhere along that line, I heard or saw, and then I think YouTube or internet, I just like bullet journal and started watching it. And I got intrigued and I tried it and then I bought the book that he has. And yeah, I just really appreciate it. It's stuck versus other systems have not always stuck. This one, and I could find in a year or two, I've changed. But this one stuck for about, let's say, Four years? Yeah. Daniel (43:24) ⁓ cool, cool. I'm interested. Yeah, I was interested to hear how you got started in this. Okay, yeah. So just kind of poking around on the internet and yeah. Kevin (43:29) Yeah, I just kind of stumbled upon it. Yeah. And what I do like, because it's written, it's, you're better to not... ⁓ I'm a perfectionist. If I find a system, I tend to want to tinker with it and make it really sing and have all... if it's electronic, you have all these labels and all this crazy stuff. And it's better for me to really keep it as simple as possible. this is not very fancy. By design, because otherwise... because the point of it, you don't want to journal your life away. You want to journal enough to get what you need, but you want to live your life. I guess there's exceptions for people that are artistic and if you go online you'll see people doing really amazing beautiful bullet journals where they've got, you know, they've drawn all pictures. They created a list of their Florida trip and they've drawn pelicans and pink flamingos and that's really cool. Like if they love doing that, that's great. If I felt like I had to do that, it would just make me look crazy because I would be a perfectionist. I couldn't just do that out of joy. I would do it out of... Daniel (44:30) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (44:36) It's a kind of obligation. So it's good. My handwriting's not neat. It's not perfect. And I have to mark through stuff. And sometimes I can't seem to spell. And you just move on. Daniel (44:47) Well, yeah, guess that was the question I had. Yes, like when do you do this? Is it hard to find time to do it? And when do you do your bullet journaling? Kevin (44:56) ⁓ Like this morning I did it once I got back from dropping a kid off at school and cleaned up the kitchen, so it's whenever convenient. But I find if I haven't done it in a bit, I've done it enough that I was like, I need to check in and see that. But in theory, I'm spending 30 minutes a day on it. Off and on. But there's some days where I don't touch it at all. Daniel (45:23) So it's not like something you do like right before you go to sleep at night or something like that, but or first thing in the morning or yeah. Kevin (45:27) Occasionally, but I yeah, I guess my days are often so varied it really depends but but I do find I yeah I do find it's almost like an itch to scratch. I want to get back in and I Guess I have enough value in it that I want to keep it going Daniel (45:43) And you don't use it as a calendar, right? Like, you know, if you've got a meeting in two weeks, you don't put it, you don't say two weeks from now. Kevin (45:46) Not really. Not too much, but sometimes it is nice. I will sometimes, because it again, it locks it in my mind in a way. If I put on Google Calendar, I'll kind of forget till a week before and I look and I'm like, yeah. So sometimes if it's a big deal, like I've got to meet with the pope again, guy keeps calling me, then and no, I can't take the job because I'm not even Catholic. So how rude. Daniel (46:12) Come on, Pope. I would vote for you. Kevin (46:19) You're not a cardinal. Can't get into the conclave without a key. Daniel (46:27) No, that's true, but Missourians know Cardinals. Woohoo! Go St. Louis. No, it was a bad joke. Kevin (46:30) Do you? Oh yeah. St. Louis Cardinals. Well, and Cardinal is the North Carolina state bird. Daniel (46:38) Really? Here's a question. Kevin (46:40) And that's how old Catholicism is, that when they got here and they saw that bird, they're like, that looks like a cardinal of the church. So they called it the cardinals. Yeah, yeah, no, was the church, the cardinal of the church came first. Daniel (46:47) That's what I was going to be my question, which came first, the cardinal bird or the cardinal conclave? Really? they got to, and then folks, so Europeans saw these little red birds with little red hats on them and said, that looks like a, ⁓ a Cardinal from the, the conclave. Interesting. I didn't know that. I was going to ask. Kevin (46:57) Yeah. Looks like Cardinal Richard over there. Yeah. They do have a lot of style, those Catholics. Good colors. I do get jealous. Daniel (47:14) Yeah. That. ⁓ also explains then why ⁓ we have birds around here called ⁓ archbishops. don't know. Whatever is going to go with that. I want to stop. Yeah. Kevin (47:31) ⁓ but along this line, do you know why it's called a ladybug? Because it has eight dots on its back and that number was associated with the Virgin Mary. So it's Our Lady, it's the Virgin Mary, yeah. It's the ladybug. I forget, it's some medieval thing. Daniel (47:35) No. Really? Why is eight associated with Mary, I wonder? Huh, interesting. Kevin (47:54) I don't think there's anything biblical. think it's some old tradition. Daniel (47:56) Oh, isn't like a new create. It's like a new, similar new creation, right? Cause like, it's like seven is complete, right? And so then when you get to eight, it's like, it's like your beginning again, like why I think baptismal fonts traditionally have eight sides or octagons because it's a new creation. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (48:04) Maybe. Yeah. It's something with an octagon, yeah. Or maybe it's just her lucky lottery number. She just did really well on eight. Daniel (48:19) I heard that that was the lucky number. Yeah. That's good. Kevin (48:28) Yeah, Yeah, that's that's bullet journaling and I I don't get artistic with it I keep it clean and neat but I have started getting stickers occasionally like I got into the TV show Yellow Jackets and I found you could buy a Someone made a sticker on Etsy for five bucks. I bought it and stuck it in there So when I look back, I'm like, yeah, I like this show and I went to this brewery or you know if I get a sticker from Daniel (48:38) That's cool. That's cool. Kevin (48:55) geek way, I might put it in there so it kind of dresses it up. That's the extent of my artistry. Yeah, it's almost like a little scrapbook, but not too much. Daniel (48:58) I like that. I like that. Yeah. You know, cause it seems like everywhere you go these days, there's a chance to buy a sticker and I want to buy stickers, but I don't know what to do with them. But maybe that's what I could do. I could put it in the journal. Kevin (49:07) It is weird, stickers are everywhere. Yeah. All your Apple stickers, you just fill it up with Apple stickers. So many Apple stickers. Anywho, that's what I got. That's what I got. What are your comments, thoughts? Daniel (49:15) So many Apple stickers. That's great. Thank you so much. No, I really I love this. This is really helpful. And I it's I I'm grateful for you sharing this important part of your life and your journey with with me and with our listeners. And I'm to look into it. Yeah. Thank you, Kevin. This is really. Yeah, it sounds like a really helpful exercise. It got me. Kevin (49:27) Aww. Thanks. Well, this challenged me to think of it as a form of play. I guess it's a discipline, but play can be discipline too. You play chess to get better at it and that kind of thing. Daniel (49:51) You know, yeah, although the meanings of these two worlds play and journaling, I got me thinking through as we were talking, one question that has kind of coming in and out of my head is. On the one hand, it gives us a sense of accomplishment by like, here's, I've accomplished this today, ⁓ which I do all the time too with like to-do lists and stuff. what I find myself wondering is how does that interact with what we've talked about in previous episodes and often about play as kind of this freedom from thinking that our values derive from productivity. ⁓ But we also say that play you know, using that Bernard Suits definition is, you know, the overcoming of unnecessary obstacles. And I wonder if the listing of what we've accomplished in that day maybe falls more under the category of overcoming unnecessary obstacles as opposed to value derived through productivity. ⁓ Just the delight in overcoming Kevin (50:45) Hmm. Right. Daniel (51:08) because my hunch is not to pass judgment on what you put in there, but I know for me, most of the things I put on my to-do list, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, they're unnecessary obstacles, right? They're not things that are... Kevin (51:20) Right, right. Oh, I love that. Yeah to see it as more of an obstacle and I think the danger is do you derive your value from it? So I'm a good person if I get a lot done. That's the trap you want to avoid so it comes down to your intentions Are you doing it because it's an obstacle to just get it done. You got to Pay your taxes. You got to mow your grass. You got to go to the grocery store and and and and and and so it's just a thing you have to do and you want to Daniel (51:32) Right. Hmm. Kevin (51:50) and you need to get it done, but you don't derive your value from it. So I think it has to do with the intention. So your value hopefully is derived from your playfulness, which is, you can log in, hey, I got to play this new game, or I got to go skeet shooting for the first time. It was really fun. So you're noting the things, and you could give that a different symbol. You could give it a smiley face instead of a bullet point. Daniel (51:54) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (52:19) How many smiley faces did you get this week? Type thing, that would be fun. How many stickers? Yeah. Yeah. Cool, cool. Daniel (52:21) You could get some OmniFace stickers and put them in like for the... I like it! Well, Kevin, this is great. Thank you so much. And if somebody wants to find out more about bullet journaling, any resources you'd recommend. Kevin (52:35) I've just gone YouTube and YouTube and the internet but also email us and I'll answer questions glad to yeah and that is info at place saves the world calm correct Daniel (52:42) Okay, great, great. Well. info at playsavestherworld.com.org.org sorry. .org. Yep. Yeah. info at playsavestherworld.org or playsavestherworld.gmail.com. Either one of those will find us. Or as we often say, carrier pigeon, or ⁓ sending out a ultraviolet ⁓ radio wave. Kevin (52:55) dot org dot org. We've had some changes. Mm-hmm. carry pigeon works or. Daniel (53:21) that can be detected by the human soul. Kevin (53:22) Vroom. Instagram which I believe is on the internet now. If you have the internet you can get to Instagram. Daniel (53:28) Instagram is on the, it's on the interwebs. You can, I've heard of it. Kevin (53:36) Yes. All right, Daniel, until next time. And I can't wait to see you IRL in real life. See you in a few days. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Thank you, everybody. Daniel (53:43) Yeah, yeah, thanks. See you then, Kevin. Thanks so much. And thanks, listeners. We really appreciate your spending time with us. Bye-bye.