Daniel (00:03.316) It's the Joy of Theater with special guest Caleb Cabiness on this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. Daniel (00:35.544) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World. It is so good to have you joining us today. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:44.821) My name is Kevin Taylor. Caleb Cabiness (00:47.153) and my name is Caleb Cabiness. Daniel (00:50.03) Caleb, welcome! We are so glad to have you with us today. Caleb Cabiness (00:55.072) Thank you, it's an honor to be here. A joy, one might say. Kevin (00:57.603) It's gonna be awesome. Daniel (01:00.778) It is our honor and joy by far to have you here. Thank you so much. We were just talking about the different places from around the United States that we are logging on today to make this podcast episode. Caleb, you're up there in Minnesota. Caleb Cabiness (01:23.604) Yep. Around St. Paul region, capital of the states, not Minneapolis. Kevin (01:29.441) Hmm. Daniel (01:30.324) St. Paul is the capital, but not Minneapolis. And yet, am I right that the two cities kind of merge? Is that right? there a space between St. Paul and Minneapolis? Caleb Cabiness (01:34.4) Correct. Caleb Cabiness (01:44.362) They are right next to each other. They're called the twin cities. They operate in synchronization a lot of the time, but they are independent entities. Daniel (01:52.864) Okay, okay. So there's like a mayor of... Yeah. From me? Kevin (01:54.369) far is that from you Daniel? Yeah, by car. know, anything west of Tennessee is just a vague shape in my head, so no offense, it's just how it is. Right, right. Daniel (01:59.999) my goodness, my car. I understand. Even even Missourians refer to our state as the flyover state. I would say, gee, I don't know. 15 hours by car. Do you have a sense for that, Caleb? Kevin (02:16.055) Wow, okay. Caleb Cabiness (02:18.24) to St. Louis from here. Daniel (02:20.374) Yeah, or mid-Misera, Caleb Cabiness (02:22.31) Mid-Missouri? I'm not sure about Mid-Missouri. To St. Louis, I think it's about eight, nine hours by car. But Mid-Missouri, I'm not sure. Daniel (02:28.416) Okay. So we're, so we're about another two hours past St. Louis. So yeah, 11, 12 hours. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, and then, and, then the furthest out from the Midwestern access here is Kevin here in North Carolina. How's, you know, which you just said before we went on the air is like the, it's like the San Diego of the East coast. Is that what you were saying? It's just a nice. Kevin (02:48.259) I'm in North Carolina. Daniel (02:58.124) warm weather, it's everything's great. Kevin (02:59.425) It is till it isn't, but right now it's really pleasant. yeah, yeah. Hate to brag, but our mountains do their work. Caleb Cabiness (03:04.918) Ha! Daniel (03:07.16) Good. And before we leave introductions also, I just got to say online, we talked about it before the recording as well, that Caleb and Kevin and I all happen to be, and our spouses all happen to be alums of the same alma mater at Wake Forest in Winston-Salem. And Caleb, your family goes back generations. Kevin (03:29.325) weird. Caleb Cabiness (03:34.838) I'm a third generation Wake Forest alum. Daniel (03:37.784) That's amazing. That's amazing. So. Kevin (03:41.443) because we didn't know that at first. Daniel (03:44.396) No, though Caleb knew it. Caleb Cabiness (03:47.626) Sometimes. Sometimes I know it. Kevin (03:48.717) But I didn't know Caleb, so that means did I know it? If Caleb knows something I don't know, does it exist for me? Until I've, if a tree falls. Daniel (03:48.824) Yes. Caleb Cabiness (03:57.76) Hmm. You're not tapped into the neural network that the rest of the Wake Forest alums are? Daniel (04:04.206) That started after we graduated. That's right. Kevin (04:06.095) If a tree falls on the... yeah. If a tree falls on the neural network, is it still active? Did you still have to do a philosophy class, Caleb? Daniel (04:11.992) Yeah Caleb Cabiness (04:16.382) I did, And I had to take four gruelingly long semesters of French. God bless my French professors. I worked very, very hard for those Cs. Kevin (04:30.947) So they still have a foreign language requirement. stuck to it. So many schools have dropped it. Wow. Daniel (04:34.446) That's great. people still roll the quad when there is a victory? Okay, okay. Caleb Cabiness (04:39.84) yes. yes. those unfamiliar with this, strange practice is that Wake Forest students will throw toilet paper over the trees of their own quad when they win a ball game. I think it originally started because, correct me if I'm wrong here, we were afraid of another school TPing our trees, so we did it first. Daniel (05:06.252) You Caleb Cabiness (05:06.954) to protect the other school from TPing our trees? Daniel (05:09.986) I love that. It's a preemptive TPing. I have to... Kevin (05:15.715) He sounds a little urban legend to me, but it could be. be. Because Winget does that as well, I've discovered. So I think it's probably just student ingenuity. But who knows? Who knows? It's free toilet paper. Daniel (05:23.486) really? Daniel (05:29.362) I, as a general philosophy, I applaud and celebrate preemptive humiliation. Kevin (05:38.925) that's why you've you've sparked your your front lawn is that right daniel Daniel (05:43.278) I have, I'm looking right now outside of the window and the front lawn is a mess because I don't want any of the neighborhood kids doing it. So that's right. That's the way it works. Well, anyway, Caleb, it's so great to have you here, including the shared experiences that are alma mater. But more importantly, for your perspective, Kevin (05:55.139) Hmm. Daniel (06:13.518) as, as a, a practitioner of the theater arts. And, so we'd love to, we want to get into that in a little bit, but first off, if you don't mind, just tell us a little bit about yourself, please. Or tell our listeners kind of the, balcony view of the story of Caleb Cabiness. Caleb Cabiness (06:32.768) Sure. So I am primarily an actor, again, primarily for the stage, but I also do some film and TV and internets and infomercial, whatever, whatever, whatever. I'm currently living in the Twin Cities, like I said, in St. Paul, Minnesota, but I am originally from North Carolina. I moved up here just for the theater scene after I graduated college and after I got married. So college was at Wake Forest University, as we've said, in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I graduated with a theater degree in 2019. And then the following year, something happened that shut down a bunch of theaters. I'm not sure what that would have been. Yeah. How weird. So I had booked my first professional gig and then the theater industry basically shut down. Yeah. But that gave me... Kevin (07:18.912) Hmm. Daniel (07:19.48) Really? How weird. Yeah. Kevin (07:25.962) no. Caleb Cabiness (07:32.864) time to focus my energy into something else, which ended up being a Minecraft YouTube channel. Did that for a while. Eventually, theater industry came back up, shifted my focus back away from that YouTube channel into my acting career again. And I've been acting and writing and directing and sound designing for the theater ever since. Yeah. Kevin (07:59.042) So the Minecraft, was that a hobby or is that a source of income? Daniel (07:59.255) Is the mic. Caleb Cabiness (08:04.018) I would call it more hobby, there was minor minor income from it. I think I made $5,000 from it over the course of several years, but nothing to live off of. Kevin (08:07.49) Sure, sure. Daniel (08:14.487) Is it still active? Caleb Cabiness (08:17.972) Not currently, we'll see if it comes back. Daniel (08:23.406) And so how's the theater scene in the Twin Cities? Caleb Cabiness (08:28.146) It's great. So I, when I was in college, I did this study away program, study quote unquote abroad to New York city for one semester. And we ended up training in theater, doing acting classes, voice and movement, dance classes. And then we ended up seeing 45 or 50 shows over the course of the one semester. It was an incredible experience. And Daniel (08:54.414) It is. Caleb Cabiness (08:58.122) Because of that experience, I knew that I did not want to live in New York City. It was too fast-paced to cutthroat maybe for me and just not what I wanted. I like living around trees and water. So senior year of college in the theater major, we did this research project, which was to research all of the theater hubs in the United States. Kevin (09:12.747) Hmm. Caleb Cabiness (09:25.566) And I think there were a couple of international theater hubs as well that we researched, such as London, et cetera. But through this research project, I found that Minneapolis has a great theater scene. The folk wisdom, again, kind of urban legend that may or may not be true is that Minneapolis has the second most theater seats per capita after New York City. I think in all likelihood, it's probably New York City, then Chicago, then the Twin Cities. Daniel (09:51.128) Wow. Caleb Cabiness (09:55.68) but it's still very strong theater scene, lots of connection to the arts. Kevin (09:57.974) We lived in Houston and they said the same thing about Houston. I don't know. Houston's up there, strangely. Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (10:01.886) Yeah, so who knows what you can trust. Regardless, it is a great theater scene. And I found, especially compared to New York, the people here all want each other to succeed, which is just lovely. You can do a show with somebody and then if that same person books a role that you were going after, it's just natural to be happy for them rather than sad for yourself. Daniel (10:16.952) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (10:30.516) And I just have found that to be so great. Daniel (10:30.84) Wow. Sounds like a very supportive community, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (10:35.732) I found it to be, yeah. I guess a little more, some recent credits that I've done were this past January, January, 2025, I had the opportunity to direct the musical that I wrote, The Joy of Painting, a Bob Ross musical, for one of the country's largest Bob Ross art exhibitions, which was in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. It's Eastern toward the coast. That was a wonderful experience. We'll talk about that more later. Daniel (10:38.814) that's great. Kevin (10:38.828) That's awesome. Kevin (10:58.357) Excellent. Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (11:05.846) Currently, I am playing the actor C.S. Lewis in a play about C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien's friendship throughout the years. Also a great experience. I get to really dig into a lot of real historical events and live in the world of these wonderful authors and the friendships that they had. I have a performance tonight, actually, so I'll be going to that after we wrap up recording. Daniel (11:32.272) bless your heart. Wow. Wow. So I was going to ask where it is. So yeah, obviously it's there in the Twin Cities, the production. Kevin (11:34.26) That's great. Caleb Cabiness (11:38.774) Yep. Yep. Yep. I would share information about where to get tickets, but I think we're sold out for the rest of the run. Kevin (11:42.38) So is it the two? Daniel (11:42.478) You Daniel (11:47.544) That's amazing. Yeah. Kevin (11:47.584) Well done, well done. And is it the two of them or is it the whole group of the writers? Caleb Cabiness (11:49.131) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (11:54.494) It's the whole group of writers. There were so many of the Inklings is what they call themselves, but in the play, the playwright Ron Reed decided to narrow it down to only five or six in the play. Yeah. Daniel (12:09.89) I'm not very familiar with the Inklings. Are there other names in that group that most of us would recognize? Caleb Cabiness (12:16.188) Mm-hmm. Probably not. Those were the two biggest, but Tolkien's son, Christopher, was also a member of the Inklings and he was pretty instrumental in publishing the Silmarillion and lots of Tolkien's posthumous works. Owen Barfield was another one and Charles Williams. Those are probably the biggest four names, but most people, again, have pretty much only heard of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. Yeah. Kevin (12:44.77) Dorothy Sayers was friends with them but maybe not in the group or something or maybe... Right. Caleb Cabiness (12:49.056) Correct, it was a male only group, so she was excluded for that reason, but they were pretty much all friends with her. Kevin (12:58.978) Yeah, they met at a pub in Oxford, right? And so you can still visit that pub. It's still there. I was at Cambridge, but did visited the Oxfords. yeah. And there's some other anecdote. Yeah, there's some anecdote that a guy that wrote a book on C.S. Lewis, Michael Ward's Planet Narnia, and it's about... Daniel (12:59.118) We out. Caleb Cabiness (13:01.814) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (13:04.182) Is that where you were, Kevin, for a while? You were at Cambridge. Daniel (13:10.894) Visit, visit, good, good. Nice. Kevin (13:24.914) astrology behind the Narnia series, the medieval astrology stuff. So each of the books is a planet in the medieval world. So the Dawn Treader is the sun. He's the first person to figure the secret to the Narnia books, which everyone's agreed he was right on, because Lewis was a medievalist. and so you do... The moon is the silver chair, because every once a month he goes crazy and there's silver. Daniel (13:42.178) Really? That's fascinating. Kevin (13:52.61) Silver's, yeah, there's all this interesting stuff once you find it that he'd hidden. But that anecdote had something to do with something. Where was I going with that? Anyway, oh, I know that Lewis and Tolkien, at one point, the guy that did this research said that Tolkien got annoyed with Lewis, with Jack Lewis, CS Lewis Jack, because he was only drinking two pints. Caleb Cabiness (13:54.358) Hmm. Kevin (14:22.402) or maybe three pints of beer at lunch. And he called him a Puritan. And Lewis also as a bachelor, he didn't use ashtrays. So like his home has just had ashes and burned bits in the carpet. And just, it's just weird. England in that time period, I think was pretty strange. Daniel (14:38.851) Wow. Caleb Cabiness (14:44.466) England that time periods, particularly Jack CS Lewis's personal life is very interesting. I highly recommend a deep dive. Yeah. Daniel (14:53.646) So are you strewing ashes all over the stage as you play Jack Lewis, Caleb? Caleb Cabiness (14:56.758) If we were if we were seeping the play in verisimilitude, I'm sure we would but There's a fair bit of drinking flat watered-down diet root beer Daniel (15:01.87) Ha ha. Kevin (15:02.146) You Daniel (15:09.05) Hahaha Kevin (15:09.198) is that what that is? yeah. Caleb Cabiness (15:10.727) That's what we're drinking. Yeah. Daniel (15:13.166) I've always wondered that, yeah, whether people are drinking things in theater or TV or movies, whether it's what they're actually drinking. So in this case, it's flat watered down diet root beer. Caleb Cabiness (15:25.332) Yep, we wanted low caffeine because we're performing in the evenings and this is no caffeine and we wanted no sugar because we're drinking a lot of it. Yeah. Daniel (15:36.28) Yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting. But it has that kind of color and yeah, and so I guess you just let it sit out for a while to get flat so it's not fizzing. Caleb Cabiness (15:39.882) Yeah. Yep. Kevin (15:44.908) So it's tepids, that's probably not pleasant, is it? Caleb Cabiness (15:47.38) No, it's not. Daniel (15:48.652) Yeah, tepid, weak, flat root beer doesn't sound especially great, but you're an actor and so you can enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. So we'd love to hear more about both the Joy of Painting and Tolkien in a moment, but first, how did you come to this world of the stage? Kevin (15:55.714) It's good lint in practice, though. It's good for lint. Makes the heart strong. Daniel (16:14.08) in film and I mean have you always known that you wanted to do this or how how how does this become a part of your life? Caleb Cabiness (16:15.508) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (16:20.362) Yeah, good question. I started off doing church plays growing up. So my family was at Methodist Church, the Mears Chapel United Methodist in Greensboro, North Carolina. And growing up, we had a great program for kids of church plays, church choirs, and all of these things. So I grew up doing this, grew up singing, grew up acting. Probably around the time I hit kindergarten, my mom asked me, Daniel (16:40.654) Wow. Caleb Cabiness (16:49.696) Caleb, do you think you might want to be an actor? Because she could see how comfortable I was on stage and being, you know, just, I think she could tell from a young age that this is something that I was gifted at and liked doing. So of course I responded with, no, I don't want to be an actor. I want to be the green power ranger. Kevin (17:08.94) Nice. Daniel (17:08.942) That's by far the more popular choice. Yeah, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (17:12.616) Of course, yes. So then we get to who actually is an actor, Ironically. We get to middle school. I choose band for my elective instead of theater. So do band all through middle school and high school. When I hit high school, I start picking up theater again. And we had just this incredibly driven theater teacher, Mr. Johnson, who for high school theater in a public high school, Kevin (17:16.044) Who actually is an actor, ironically. Caleb Cabiness (17:41.524) would put on four main stage shows every single year, plus one acts, plus theater festivals and all of these other things. I don't know how he found the energy to do that. He would build all of the sets and do all the lighting design and sound design himself too, on top of directing these high schoolers. But I really, that's where I learned to act because it was a small school. So a lot of the people who wanted to be in the shows were able to be in the shows every time. Daniel (17:50.222) That's amazing. Yeah. Daniel (17:56.974) Wow. Caleb Cabiness (18:11.762) And I got a lot of experience. 16 main stage shows while I was there, plus the one act, plus the theater festivals and competitions and all of that. The summer before my senior year of high school, I went to the North Carolina Governor's School, which is a six week program for juniors and seniors, rising juniors and seniors in high school, to have a major and really dive deep into their subject. So I auditioned for theater, I got accepted, and this six week program we trained in acting, trained in... broad theater and we devised a piece of our own. So that was my first experience with writing a play. Kevin (18:53.41) Where? Let me pause there. Where did you go? I was at Governor's School East way back in the day for actually one act plays. Yeah, I was right. Like creative writing. Yeah. It was at St. Andrews in Laurenburg. Caleb Cabiness (19:00.946) I was at... Where are you? Wow. Okay. I was at Governor's School East, but they had moved it to Meredith College by the time I went. Yeah. Daniel (19:15.17) My wife also went to North Carolina Governor's School. Anyway, keep going. Yeah, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (19:18.186) Wow, so many connections. That's great. Sometime during the time at Governor School, that's when I made the decision that this is what I want to do for my career. Before that point, it was just something that I was doing because I liked it. But at Governor School, seeped in theater and surrounded by all of these other people who are there because they love it just as much as I do, this, when I made the decision that I wanted to do this for my career. Kevin (19:18.349) wow. Yeah, that's how, look at that. Huh. Daniel (19:31.982) Right. Caleb Cabiness (19:46.866) So I started applying to colleges with the intention of going for a theater degree. Anytime that I would think about going to a college, I would try to go to that college and see a play there. And then I wound up. at Wake Forest because they gave me the most financial aid. sometimes you gotta follow the money. Kevin (20:06.646) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nothing wrong with that. Daniel (20:08.462) Yep. Yep. Caleb Cabiness (20:10.686) nothing wrong with that, and ended up having a great degree. Went for the broad theater degree rather than a specified acting degree, which I could have done at the UNC School of the Arts or any sort of conservatory. I wanted a more well-rounded theater education, so that includes acting, playwriting, lighting design, sound design, production design, all of the above. And I got a taste of all of those and classes in all of those, which I think informs my acting because I have this experience in all of these other things. Daniel (20:45.442) Right, I can see how well-rounded, kind of the more well-rounded approach would be helpful in practicing in any of those areas. Caleb Cabiness (20:54.996) Yeah. And I've indeed had to use several of them, even as an actor. I did a show last summer in which I was a puppeteer under a trick table and I was puppeteering this lunchbox up here. I was under the table all the while I had my phone and I was remotely controlling the sound effects from under the table while I'm puppeteering above the table. So yeah. Daniel (21:18.936) No way. Daniel (21:24.398) That sounds like so much fun. Kevin (21:25.846) That's cray cray. That's awesome. Daniel (21:29.89) What is it about? Daniel (21:34.11) theater that appeals to you. mean, so you have these wonderful experiences in governor's school and this amazing teacher in high school and beginning in church plays. Obviously, you know, have wonderful gifts for it and talent for it. Daniel (21:55.758) But is there, why go in this direction as opposed to maybe other areas that you're talented in or interested in? You know, is there, how does it? Now we're kind of getting to the stuff that's that's harder to talk about. But yeah, mean, how does it connect to your soul? I mean, what what's what does it what does it mean for you? Kevin (22:13.506) How does theater spark joy? Caleb Cabiness (22:21.856) That's a great question. There are certainly other talents and gifts that I have that I chose not to pursue because they don't spark that same type of joy. For example, I sing a lot, I was never felt called to pursue singing on the worship team or singing for a career. I think theater has that special connection with the other actors on stage. When you're in the moment, and bouncing not just the lines off of each other, but bouncing the intention off of each other, you can really settle in in a way that really feels like the flow state for me at least. And that feeling on top of the feeling of connecting with a live audience, which is something you don't get when you're acting in a commercial or acting on film or something. Daniel (23:08.012) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:08.684) Right, right. Daniel (23:17.294) Hmm. Caleb Cabiness (23:23.796) That live audience, I love that direct feedback of I'll say a line and then immediately hearing the audience respond, whether it's a drama or a comedy. It's just a feeling like no other for me. Daniel (23:34.67) Yeah. Kevin (23:38.498) Wow, but you can't really see them very well, correct? Because of the stage lights, but you can feel there and you can hear. Yeah, that's great. That's amazing. I've wondered about this because I enjoy being in front of an audience in terms of speaking and talking and that sort of thing. And I'm getting more comfortable with singing with choir and that kind of thing. And some people said, why don't you try doing some like the local theater group, the sort of the. Caleb Cabiness (23:42.326) Correct, yeah. You can feel the energy, yeah. Kevin (24:08.566) You the volunteer group, have you ever tried that? I've never really tried it, but I hear what you're saying about it's partly the being on stage with other people. That would be quite exciting. It's almost like being in a band, right? Like you're connected on stage and then you're connected off stage, which is something you don't get if you're in a pulpit or in front of a classroom where you're kind of a solo act. But I am engaging more with people because I can see their faces. So I have more of direct contact, it seems. Caleb Cabiness (24:12.031) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (24:17.963) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (24:25.951) Exactly. Caleb Cabiness (24:38.39) True. Yeah. Kevin (24:38.7) versus that darkness that I assume you kind of got from the stage. mean, Daniel's church has that kind of lighting, but mine does not. Kevin (24:51.67) We still use candles vaguely. Daniel's got the stage lights. Daniel (24:56.415) the way that the Bible intended. That was good. Kevin (25:00.554) You Caleb Cabiness (25:01.38) Ha Kevin (25:04.748) But yeah, that's really, it is about connection and I can definitely connect with that. Yeah, that there's something about building a connection that's temporary. I guess it's like a game too. Like it's sort of this temporary thing is you know it's gonna end and it's partly with strangers as well. That's what's fun. Like you get to connect with strangers and then everyone goes home. Like you don't really, you know, but that's kind of the electric bit of it for me. Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (25:29.641) It's fleeting, for sure. Daniel (25:33.102) I love that. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. It strikes me that, I mean, hearing you describe the meaningfulness of the experience at the stage for you really does have a lot of parallels with conversations we've had before on this podcast about why play matters, you know, that it's the sense of connection to the people on the stage, around, as you're saying, as you're both saying, I mean, it's... It's for this moment. You enter into this magic circle that we talk about with any kind of play experience. And also the flow, this sense of flow that you're in that moment and you're fully present to that moment in ways that we so often aren't the rest of life. But that's kind of the gift of play in its many forms, forcing us in a way to be present in ways that... that we often aren't. what I find interesting about, you know, on this podcast, we talk about different expressions of play and playfulness and creativity. We've talked about music and, you know, video games and table games and pigeon keeping and, you know, hobbies. But with the theater stage in particular, uses the language of play, right, in ways that that none of the others do really. A lot of these games do, but I mean, your production is called a play, right? I mean, you actually, it's called a play and you play a role. I don't know, mean, have you seen, I know you play games and we've talked some about that offline, we'll talk about more in a moment, but do you see overlap in the world of play and theater? Caleb Cabiness (27:11.616) Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:33.224) Did one inform the other? Caleb Cabiness (27:37.246) Absolutely. Yeah. I think we can imagine it like this. If the actors are on stage only reading the words off the page, the audience is not going to be very engrossed in that. But if the actors are playing with the lines, trying to figure out how to deliver them differently, how would this character feel in this moment and trying to portray that, trying to play that character? It really does feel like I was talking to an actor in Tolkien about this and he brought up the idea that it's very similar to childhood play. You're in a playground and you are pretending to be superheroes trying to battle with each other or trying to be the the green power ranger. And to you as a child, you're 100 percent in there. You are that superhero. You are that Daniel (28:24.482) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (28:36.726) Power Ranger and you're locked in, so to speak. And I think the same is true of theater. The audience is the most engrossed when the actors are playing with their roles, when they are as engrossed as children are when they're playing. Kevin (28:56.05) Is that the etymology for why we call it play? Is it because of the actors playing roles? Do you by chance know? Daniel (28:56.078) So good. Caleb Cabiness (29:03.742) I don't know, I tried to look it up but I couldn't get much information. On Britannica, the site for play is so long. Yeah. Kevin (29:08.246) Gotta be somebody's written something about that. Kevin (29:13.282) Right. Daniel (29:13.439) You Kevin (29:17.76) And maybe we don't know historically. Daniel (29:17.898) It- Right. Kevin (29:22.284) But now St. Augustine did not approve of play because he felt like performing like that is lying. And it's sort of that Play-Doh bit where you're creating something that's not reflecting the world, so you're taking yourself further away from the beauty of the world by creating something artificial. But that's why the word in Latin for actor is hypocrite. Caleb Cabiness (29:31.606) Mm-hmm. Caleb Cabiness (29:48.938) Hmm. Daniel (29:49.088) Is it? Really? Kevin (29:49.484) So that's the origin of word hypocrite is it was the actor. And so they, it's like they are tricking you into they're not who they say they are. Yeah. It's kind of, it's kind of wild. Daniel (29:59.214) Augustine, Augustine, at least you're honest about it. That's right. That's true for. Caleb Cabiness (29:59.328) Wow. Yep, that's my job. Professional lying. Kevin (30:03.638) professional like it's okay he's just playing it's not real yeah i think augustine was wrong about that means wrong about he's he's he's amazing but he was wrong a bunch of times Daniel (30:19.95) I had a seminar professor who said, Augustine will always come back to haunt you. says, it seems like he always turns up in all these spots. Now that's great. And I love how you bring up the aspect of pretending to, yeah, I mean, in a way you get to be the green power ranger. I mean, maybe not the green power ranger specifically, but yeah, yeah. Kevin (30:27.874) You Yeah. Kevin (30:47.49) Well, when we play a game, we're kind of hypocrites for playing because we act like these little bits matter and they really have, or that somehow it means you're smart or clever, but plenty of smart people are terrible at games. Like we have to pretend like it matters and it does matter in the magic circle, but once you leave, you know, and same thing with the play, right? Like you, if you only go to theater, you would starve to death. Like you have to. Caleb Cabiness (31:00.32) Ha Kevin (31:14.09) leave eventually and do something else, but in the circle it's like time stops. Daniel (31:21.324) And in a way, think the world inside the magic circle, the world on the stage, and the world outside the magic circle, the world outside the stage, I I think they can kind of serve as lenses for interpreting what really matters in either direction anyway. know, I mean, that's, yeah. Kevin (31:40.822) Yes. Yes. Daniel (31:47.372) our old friend Bernard Suits that we talk a lot about in the Grasshopper. Daniel (31:55.298) more of even the real world might be play than we often like to acknowledge. that reminds me. Okay, no, we got to get back to this. All right. Another episode. got another. Let's a note, Kevin. If we can if we can visit, talk about Wittgenstein at some point. That's fine. Here you go. Anyway, yeah, no, it's fine. You don't have to actually write it down. It's fine. So, yeah, that's fine. So tell us, please, Caleb, about the joy of painting. Kevin (32:20.15) I to borrow a pen. Caleb Cabiness (32:24.0) Ha Kevin (32:28.437) thanks. That's great. Daniel (32:38.734) How did that come about? What attracted you to the subject of Bob Ross? How has it changed you doing that? Caleb Cabiness (32:45.856) Hmm. It came about as my senior project at Wake Forest. I knew that I wanted to do something to challenge myself, which was to write a musical. this is not something that I had much experience with before this. when I was studying abroad in New York, I had, I had written like a 10 minute musical, but nothing on the scale of a one act or anything. I had also studied Stephen Sondheim in my freshman year at Wake Forest. My professor David Hagee is a Sondheim scholar and just made me fall in love with his works and with musical theater in general. So I knew I wanted to challenge myself by writing a musical. And... I also knew around this time I was dealing with a lot of anxiety and depression and it was just a tough season for me trying to navigate what is going to come after college. I wasn't really sure at that time. So I knew I wanted to write something positive and encouraging and something that would be more of a calming presence. And my brother was watching a lot of Bob Ross at this time. Parker is his name and Parker suggested, why don't you do a Bob Ross musical? So of course I had to do it as calming dude, with a positive message, lots of positive things to say in his own show. so of course I, it was natural. It just made sense. so I spent the latter half of 2018. Daniel (34:14.766) Neat. Neat. Yeah. Kevin (34:16.77) This calming dude, yeah, that's genius. Yeah, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (34:35.406) and the beginning part of 2019 working on this 30 minute musical, The Joy of Painting. I had a six person cast, which was Bob Ross, who is on the TV. And I used his direct quotes from the TV show. So basically. Yes. And then he is teaching painting. Daniel (34:56.747) the TV moments of the play. Neat, Caleb Cabiness (35:03.094) to this young girl named Ellie who is the protagonist of the show and she has a coming of age moment through the lessons that he teaches on TV. Yeah. And then it... Daniel (35:14.543) that sounds wonderful. Go ahead, sorry. Kevin (35:17.772) Yeah, that's great. Caleb Cabiness (35:18.454) Yeah. And then it's his classic lessons of, you know, everybody needs a friend. So she has to go out and make a friend. Um, there's, there's no mistakes. There's only happy accidents. Um, you gotta have light in order to have dark. It's just like in life, you gotta have a little sadness once in a while. So, know, when the good times are coming. Um, so I try to incorporate all of his big lessons into the show and sometime around. Daniel (35:29.838) Mm-hmm. Kevin (35:30.418) I love that one. I love that one. Caleb Cabiness (35:46.016) July of last year, 2024, I had a mentor from college reach out to me and say, Caleb, you wrote a Bob Ross musical, didn't you? And I said, yes, I did. She said, I just did this gig at the Dunn Center in North Carolina that, and I found out that every year they have this big Bob Ross art exhibition. I think we should pitch your musical to them. And I said, I have not thought about the musical in five years. Kevin (36:12.204) genius. Caleb Cabiness (36:16.022) I'm sure I'm a better writer now than I was then. So I spent all of last summer rewriting my musical from a cast of six down to a cast of two. So that was challenging in itself. I ended up only doing Bob Ross and Ellie the protagonist. And I had to figure out how do I make this six person cast into a two person cast. And of course, I'm still casting my brother as Bob Ross. So I had to figure out how am I going to direct this show from Minnesota where I live to North Carolina where it's going to be performed. So I had this casting call, got lots of great submissions. I ended up going with a current Wake Forest senior named Mariana Bailey. She was just fantastic Ellie and we just did it in January. So it was a wonderful experience. Daniel (36:53.652) wow. Daniel (37:09.646) That's amazing. Kevin (37:10.946) So you were never in Rocky Mountain, you mean? Caleb Cabiness (37:14.16) I flew down to Rocky Mount for one week to do in-person rehearsals, but we had been doing Zoom rehearsals for two months up to that point. Yeah, I was able to direct it from here most of the time. Kevin (37:21.57) Wow, so zoom is changing directing that much. Kevin (37:30.018) That's awesome, but you never you didn't get to see it at the festival Caleb Cabiness (37:35.22) I did, I was done there. So the one person of in-person rehearsals and the performances. Kevin (37:36.482) Okay, you did get to go. Okay, okay, I thought that would be kind of painful. Yeah, yeah, Daniel (37:43.736) Does a recording of the production exist somewhere on the interwebs that a person could see it? Caleb Cabiness (37:52.608) There is a recording on YouTube. It is at my YouTube channel, formerly used for Minecraft, called Cheese DUD. Daniel (38:02.35) She's dud. Okay. Okay. Caleb Cabiness (38:04.118) She is Kevin (38:05.152) We'll put a link to that. Daniel (38:11.128) Look to, look to cheese dud. Thank you. That's awesome. Daniel (38:18.858) And then. And then, and then you were saying more recently, or like fact right now, in fact tonight you're in Tolkien. Can you tell us a little bit about, about that too, please? Caleb Cabiness (38:30.997) Indeed. Caleb Cabiness (38:35.22) Yeah. So the show follows CS Lewis, the character I'm playing, and Tolkien over decades of their friendship. So it starts out when they meet at Oxford as both of them were professors at Oxford University. Jack was about 27 and Tolkien was about 32, 33, somewhere around there. And it follows the entire course of their friendship from Tolkien being instrumental in converting C.S. Lewis to Christianity. So that's a big moment of the play is him realizing that he suddenly believes in God where he did not before. And then Tolkien saying, OK, but what about also Jesus? Jack is saying, no, I don't think it has anything to do with Jesus. This is this is something more pagan and this is something more wild than that. Eventually, Tolkien convinces him to convert. There's a new member to the Inklings, Charles Williams, which Jack has just really taken by his writings, taken by his work. Tolkien thinks they're a little too French and dark. So he doesn't approve of Williams' writings ever. They also have a lot of differences in the way that they approach Christianity. So Jack converts into Protestantism. Tolkien is a catholic and they really butt heads about that quite a bit. in terms of evangelism. So even though Tolkien evangelized C.S. Lewis into Christianity, Caleb Cabiness (40:21.234) Lewis is doing all of these talks on the BBC radio, which later became mere Christianity, for the layman about, you know, this is what the Bible says about X. This is what how Christians should behave about X and Y. But Tolkien never approved of this evangelism. So that becomes another big butting head point. So it's really examining how they celebrate each other's victories and how eventually they just stretch apart and lose contact. Daniel (40:54.157) So at the end of their life, they're not actor friends. Sorry. Kevin (40:54.38) Really, they, yeah, same question. Caleb Cabiness (40:58.218) Yeah. Not active friends at the end of the play. We have this big argument scene and then they're never seen again together. Daniel (41:08.335) I wasn't aware of that. Kevin (41:10.37) It was Toki and a prickly dude, cause I don't know much about him, but the stuff that you said that I've heard, he seems like he was my way or the highway type. Was that fair or is that? Caleb Cabiness (41:23.178) I would say that's a little fair. He definitely kept his heart close to his chest. Is that the right saying? Kevin (41:32.855) Yeah. Daniel (41:33.253) That sounds... Caleb Cabiness (41:34.27) So something along those lines. He, very strongly was motivated by his family, his wife, Edith and his four children. and he kept everything very close to himself. He didn't really try to spread himself out, which I think contributed to a lot of people thinking that he was prickly, but Within the play, I would say he's the more prickly of the two, at least. Daniel (42:08.792) So faith, obviously a major theme or important theme of the play. And as you know, this is a podcast where we often explore the intersection of themes of play and faith and spirituality and religion. Do you see those two worlds overlapping or intersecting for you, theater and faith, or theater and play? Or have you learned things over time from being a writer or actor or director that have informed your faith, or vice versa? Caleb Cabiness (42:54.23) Certainly, yeah. So I think about the origins of theater here, which was the ancient Greeks would put on plays to honor their gods, right? And then... think to me, theater is so steeped in... spirituality that even even Jesus speaking the parables, what he's doing there is telling stories and captivating people, telling them of their, of his faith principles through storytelling. And I think a lot of that happens in theater as well for me. I can really connect with characters, especially when they're as dense as C.S. Lewis, when they have so much story to tell. That is a very spiritual feeling for me that I am connecting with these characters because of who they are. But also I'm trying to, it's the first Corinthians 10 31. So, so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. So if I am acting on stage, no matter what role it is, I'm doing it for the glory of God. Caleb Cabiness (44:18.994) and then he is allowing me to play this character to the best of my ability. That's how I feel. Daniel (44:25.55) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Using the gifts that God has given you, the best that you can to ... Daniel (44:38.67) play out those roles, those purposes that God has put in your heart and in your life. Caleb Cabiness (44:46.646) Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (44:50.09) There's also offstage after you. Daniel (44:50.124) I-I-Go ahead. Daniel (44:55.106) Well, was just gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Critical hit for Caleb, yeah. Thank you. Kevin (44:55.682) I'm gonna roll for Caleb in this situation. Go ahead, Caleb. Caleb Cabiness (44:59.094) Yeah. Okay. So even, even off stage, I have had other actors approach me and say, Caleb, I can tell that you're a Christian because of the way that you behave off stage, which to me, I think that is even more than the connection of, of faith and theater. That's important to me that people can see. Kevin (45:01.122) Roll for damage. Daniel (45:18.062) Hmm. Caleb Cabiness (45:29.44) who I am based on the way that I behave, the way I act, so to speak. Daniel (45:34.018) Yeah, yeah, right. What a wonderful, what a wonderful witness, what a wonderful thing to hear, yeah. I suppose those of you in the theater world think and talk about this a lot and find it probably elementary, but it's never really occurred to me that, mean, that, yeah, theater. What we're doing is storytelling, right? That you're telling these, you're telling stories. And yeah, you're right. I storytelling is the, it's the language of faith, right? It's the language of the spirit. It's how we, how we find meaning. Caleb Cabiness (46:04.022) Yeah. Kevin (46:16.908) Yeah, and it's communal, reading a book is great, but it is more of a solitary experience. You are connected to the writer, so you're connected to others when you discuss it and have a shared, know, love that book too, but you're not creating something, and the audience is part of the creation in a sort of implicit way. Like, not on stage, but they're adding to the energy and they're responding. And so yeah, there is a magic to it. The lights go down and something happens and lights go up, so. Daniel (46:20.258) Yeah. That's right. Kevin (46:46.442) terms of the play. That's why Balthazar, the guy I studied in grad school, he used his play and drama as a structure for the God's entire interaction with the world and writes a dogmatic, his dogmatics about religion based on that. He thought there's a lot of ideas in it as well. Caleb Cabiness (46:57.908) Mm-hmm. Caleb Cabiness (47:04.384) Yeah. Kevin (47:09.926) the drama of God entering the world stage in Christ for Christians, you know, that's a very Christian notion, but we do what we got to do, right? I mean, that's who we are. Daniel (47:20.386) And I guess it reminds me of there's this notion also that, you know, that ritual, religious ritual is essentially kind of holy play, right? Or a sacralized play. Kevin (47:34.858) And worship has a playful aspect, too. mean, sometimes the acolytes at my church fail and I have to get the clicker and help them, and it's fine. It's fine, you know? And the kids are cute. They can't ultimately fail, even when they fail to light the lights, right? It's always a win, and everyone's just glad they're there. But there's a playfulness of, are they going to be able to get it lit? Is he going to have to get the little torch thing up? It's really quite sweet. Daniel (47:50.264) That's right. Caleb Cabiness (47:50.282) Hahaha Daniel (48:07.502) well... go ahead. Kevin (48:08.022) Well, Caleb, you're a non-recovering board game fan, as I understand it, if that's fair, because Daniel and I are also the same way. What are some things you enjoy playing or some favorites? Caleb Cabiness (48:13.334) Correct. No recovery in sight. Caleb Cabiness (48:21.184) Please stop me if I take this too long. Kevin (48:23.138) Non-recovering. Go ahead. Daniel (48:23.296) you're speaking our language. Caleb Cabiness (48:26.39) This is one of those subjects you can talk about for days and still have more to talk about. So I'm a huge co-op board game fan. My number one game of all time is Spirit Island. Yeah, it's so good. So this is a game that took me probably five plays before it started to click. But for context, for listeners who don't know this game, Kevin (48:30.594) you Kevin (48:39.17) I knew you were gonna say that. I've gotta play this game. Daniel (48:41.827) need. Caleb Cabiness (48:55.574) Spirit Island, think originally released in 2016 and it's designed by Eric Roos, R-E-U-S-S, Royce maybe, in which you are spirits on this island trying to stop invaders from colonizing your island. For example, one player could be playing as the ocean spirit who's trying to drown the invaders. Another player could be playing as the volcano spirit who's trying to blow up themselves and damaging themselves in the process, but also taking out the invaders. I just find it super thematic. find the synergies between the two spirits if you're playing in a two player game or some people play solo with two spirits at the same time. It's a little too much for me. Kevin (49:39.308) That's my problem. I've tried the solo and I'm the same way and just, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (49:42.558) Yeah. I have some friends online and we play over tabletop simulator where you can play all of the spirits and just finding the synergies between two spirits is so fun to me. Very thematic. Yeah. Kevin (49:58.924) What about some others? Caleb Cabiness (50:01.238) Okay, I'll quickly kind of rattle off some more co-ops that I love. So Clover, a word association party game. Hits every single time. Sky Team, a two player cooperative game where you are trying to land a plane together, one player is the pilot, one player is the co-pilot. Daybreak, where you're trying to work together to solve climate change. You can play it for free on boardgamearena.com. Kevin (50:23.228) I want to play Daybreak. That looks so good. Caleb Cabiness (50:30.024) is a fantastic implementation. I've played it probably 30 times on Board Game Arena live with my friends, and it is just fantastic. Kevin (50:30.242) Oh yeah, I didn't realize that. Yeah. Daniel (50:40.27) heard it's kind of it's the same designer as pandemic right other it doesn't kind of have a pandemic vibe but but with the with the climate change theme or Caleb Cabiness (50:43.371) Yes. Caleb Cabiness (50:50.194) I would say it can snowball similarly to pandemic where you can quickly get out of your depth. Or things can all go your way. Yes. Mechanics very different. There's a... Yes. Kevin (50:56.694) but it's a different game. Daniel (50:59.01) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (51:00.374) But it is a diff, the mechanics and everything I think are quite different and it's scientifically researched, I They really paid attention. I'm talking about a game I've not played, but I've read about. I hear it's great. Daniel (51:03.214) All right, okay, okay. Okay, okay. Caleb Cabiness (51:10.422) It's this really satisfying engine building with cards and tableau building. It's very satisfying. Daniel (51:17.271) Okay. Pablo Building. Kevin (51:20.182) Are you going to Geek Way to the West by chance? Yeah. Caleb Cabiness (51:22.838) I'm not. I don't have any cons lined up this year. I went to GenCon last year, and I think that satisfied my cons for a couple years. Kevin (51:27.649) Okay. Kevin (51:31.5) Yeah, I've heard that's amazing. excellent. Caleb Cabiness (51:33.642) Yeah. Yeah. Euro games, love Euro games where you are building your own thing. I'm not a big fan of direct player interaction as far as negative player interaction goes. The take that and the mean games, it makes me feel bad for having to do it to other players. So games like Viticulture or yeah, yeah. Kevin (51:48.129) Why? Kevin (51:58.55) That sounds like what Daniel would say. Daniel (52:00.216) Yeah, I get you. Yeah, I'm the same way. But viticulture, yeah. Caleb Cabiness (52:06.262) Viticulture, Tableau Builders like Arc Nova and Earth. Even some of the Garfield games are not too much negative player interaction. So Wayfarers of the South Tigris, Ezra and Nehemiah. Kevin (52:09.804) Mm-hmm. Kevin (52:15.306) No, they don't have any, yeah. Yeah, no, they're very Euro camp except for the chaos order type thing or. Yeah, I think about this whole Euro and this is probably most of our listeners know Euro games are kind of defined by, you, you, there's a timer and you're not, you don't win by player elimination type thing versus a mirror trash or more monopoly type. And I don't know. I think the secret to the mirror trash is you don't want to play with mean people, but it's just something really fun. Especially when the stories you can create. Yeah. And like somebody has an epic battle. Daniel (52:52.536) You really enjoy that, don't you? Yeah. Kevin (52:58.678) and they're lucky with their dice. Like there's an energy to that that you're just not gonna get from growing grapes, you know? And sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but, and it's not fun to lose a lot and I don't want anyone mean playing, so I know what you mean, but there's an energy to the mare trash that I kind of love actually. Because you get that rocky moment of, know, come back from the brink and you win. That's just a... Caleb Cabiness (53:07.068) Hahaha! Daniel (53:08.076) You Caleb Cabiness (53:27.924) Yeah, the classic Thunder Road vendetta. Kevin (53:28.055) feel exciting. Daniel (53:29.56) I think it's. Kevin (53:32.124) that's coming for my birthday. You love that one? Is it good? Bet you don't play it. Caleb Cabiness (53:35.679) My friends really really like it. I've only played it once at Gen Con and I thought it was fun, but be excited to play it some more. Daniel (53:41.1) I've never tried that. Kevin (53:42.368) I played at Tantrum Con with a great group of, they were mostly strangers, and we laughed so hard. I mean, we just, there were earthquakes and cars were blowing up and we were, it was just, yeah. That is, I love that game, because it's fun and silly. anyway. Daniel (54:02.734) That's a good point, Kevin. think it depends largely on, yeah, the players. Yeah, that's right. Kevin (54:07.298) think you need to have the right group. Kevin (54:12.256) And hopefully you balance out. But hopefully everyone gets a chance to win. That would be the perfect situation. Daniel (54:12.394) Those are great games. Caleb Cabiness (54:20.992) like a co-op. Daniel (54:22.22) a co-op. That's right. Kevin (54:22.39) Like it? Kevin (54:26.69) Someone should design like this mega game that is basically all these little Ameritrash games that then lead into a big co-op thing. That would be really awesome. It's almost like a game within a games, like a big clock type thing. In terms of the different little mechanisms that all work together or something. That would be fits, but yeah. Yeah, like a co-op. Anyway, you playing anything new, Daniel? Caleb Cabiness (54:36.48) Ha ha ha! Kevin (54:56.587) anything special. Daniel (54:56.942) Why anything new? You know, this game's been out for about a year or two, but I just got it and I love it. Veil of Eternity? That's a great game. It's just, Kevin (55:10.656) I demoed it when I was at Geekway. It was kind of cool game. Daniel (55:14.444) It's easy to set up and I just, it's one of the, I feel like it's a great game because it's one of those games I just want to keep playing again and again and again and again. For a shuffle too is a new one we just got. We're just building around again about a year or so. But I just want to keep playing that again and again. Yeah, yeah. How about you, Kevin? Anything new for you? Kevin (55:22.699) Hmm. Kevin (55:26.562) played that a few times. I am terrible at that game. I'm so bad at that game, but it is a cool game. I don't know. Kevin (55:37.762) I haven't been playing a bit. It's kind of sad. I'm back to playing Legacy of You again. just that and Hadrian's Wall are just really satisfying little one-hour solo and I know kind of what to do and I don't have to think I don't I think but not super hard so yeah. It's probably I did get that Amon Amon Ray. It's an Amon Ray by Reiner Kenizia. Daniel (55:46.21) Those are great. Daniel (56:02.349) Yeah. Kevin (56:06.21) played that with some folks. That's kind of a neat little auction game. Daniel (56:12.962) Well, Caleb, how can people find you if they want to find out more information about you? Caleb Cabiness (56:18.838) Sure. I have a website, calebcabinist.com, or probably you can find me on Instagram, caleb underscore cabinist. Daniel (56:29.09) Thank so much. we'll have links in the show notes in the description. Kevin, you're, Kevin's the master of such things. You're amazing. Thank you. there it is. Kevin (56:29.73) But links, yep. Kevin (56:37.878) Yep, got it. Kevin (56:43.574) Daniel Ari Wittgenstein and then. Daniel (56:46.638) Your notes are amazing. I'm humbled. That's really cool. Kevin (56:52.47) I them upside down, it's really amazing. I didn't, I just lied. And backwards. Yeah, that's actually, yeah, the screen is fixing it for you, but it's encoded. Caleb Cabiness (56:54.986) Well, and backwards. Daniel (56:58.476) And backwards, yeah. Daniel (57:06.186) the and Kevin how can people find us? Kevin (57:11.67) We are at info at play saves the world dot. Daniel (57:17.656) com.org.org. That org. Kevin (57:21.846) We've had some changes in management. Daniel (57:24.526) I'm sorry, it was, that's right. Our last domain name was .com and I keep switching back to that. But yeah, it's placehavestheworld.org info. Kevin (57:33.312) Yeah, yeah, it should be just dot Daniel, but Daniel refused. He's too humble. He's too humble. Daniel (57:39.02) I'm not worthy of a domain name. I'm not worthy to occupy this space with you and Caleb. Kevin (57:46.21) They put me on the dark web because that's the only place that dot Kevin's worthy of is the dark web. It's a tough life. Thanks everybody. Stay safe. Enjoy. Daniel (57:56.386) Yeah. Yeah, Caleb, thanks again so much for joining us. Caleb Cabiness (58:01.6) Thank you for having me, it was truly an honor. Daniel (58:04.344) been great. All right. See you, everybody. Bye-bye. Kevin (58:06.114) Bye bye.