Daniel (00:04.868) It's the joy of cooperative games on this episode of Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about games and spirituality. Daniel (00:34.77) Hello and welcome everyone to this episode of Play Saves the World. name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:41.493) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:43.908) And listeners, we are so grateful that you are taking part in our episode today. Thank you so much for clicking the link or the button or whatever, tuning in. We are so glad that you did. If no one else has told you yet today, we think you're pretty awesome and you made our day and we appreciate your being a part of it. Speaking of being awesome, how are you, Kevin? Kevin (01:11.636) I am very good Daniel. How are you? Daniel (01:13.362) Good, good, good. I am doing well. Thank you. I'm doing well. Kevin (01:16.504) COVID is bouncing around, that everybody's okay, right? But it's Yeah, in the community, yeah. Daniel (01:19.634) no. Yeah, no. we're, yeah. I haven't heard too many cases where we are, but where you are, there's been, you're starting to hear, okay, okay. Well, hopefully, today we're talking about the joy of cooperative games. And by that, we mean specifically cooperative tabletop games, cooperative tabletop games. Kevin (01:27.404) I've known a few. Yeah. Yeah. And what's today's topic, Daniel? Daniel (01:47.618) And this is kind of an ongoing series, sort of. We have a lot of the joy of episodes of Play Saves the World, where we take a look at the joy you can find in games and incorporating kind of a gaming spirit into our lives. Kevin, how are folks able to support this kind of conversation if they're interested in it? Kevin (02:10.158) Yeah, please help us get the word out and like and subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or if you're listening to the audio podcast tell a friend and review us on iTunes or Let's Spotify or whatever your platform of choice is and you can support us at patreon.com slash play saves the world give us a little financial help to under help Help support the cost of the channel. So yeah please consider donating. Daniel (02:41.278) We appreciate that so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Leave those written reviews on the podcast platforms. I hear kind of really help the algorithms know to, to recommend the podcast to others and to spread the good news of gaming. so thank you so much. So today we're talking about the joy of cooperative games. Kevin, if someone is tuning into this episode and maybe they're unfamiliar with Kevin (02:56.782) He That's right. That's right. Daniel (03:09.886) cooperative tabletop games. are we talking about here? Kevin (03:14.668) Well, Daniel, let's envision a scenario. Yes. Yes. It's both this is the gravitas of the topic as well as the gravitas of the ragweed that is blooming that makes some of us so liquid. Daniel (03:15.836) Yes. I like the voice clearing. Yes. I like the voice clearing as you were going into it. It brought a certain sense of gravity. It is. Daniel (03:33.916) yeah. Daniel (03:39.804) Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks. Kevin (03:40.92) But yeah, consider one scenario where you and I play game and we decide to arm wrestle. Right? Again. And only one shall win. Now, or it could be a tie, could be a tie. Or let's consider the second scenario. You and I decide to push down a tree. Daniel (03:46.846) Hmm again Yes, okay Daniel (03:54.43) No, it's Kevin. Okay, okay. Daniel (04:03.655) Okay. Kevin (04:05.07) So in the first scenario, you are my adversary and I'm trying to beat you. In the second one, you and I are gonna work together and our adversary is that tree, because it needs to come down. It's not in good shape and it's hurting the daisies. So we are gonna push this tree down somehow. We're gonna work together and figure it out. And yeah, that's kind of the difference of a co-op game. A co-op game, you are playing against the board. Daniel (04:09.073) Mm-hmm. Daniel (04:16.797) you Daniel (04:22.671) Okay, okay. Kevin (04:33.336) versus against the other players. Is that fair? Daniel (04:33.405) Okay. Okay. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, so the players are working together against, as you said, against the board, against the game, against the tree, trying to push it down. Yeah, I like that. Do you, is that something that you do? Kevin (04:50.702) He's done it for a long time. He stood as a kid. The dead ones, they're still standing, but you realize they're dead and you give them a push and they go, crack. It's very thrilling. Daniel (04:53.991) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (04:58.555) Really, they're easier to push that way. Dead tree pushing. I like it. We should have a future episode called The Joy of Dead Tree Pushing. Kevin (05:02.784) Yes, because it lacks good roots. It's so much fun. Yeah, if you were going the woods, yeah. You've got a spine. Sometimes you're wrong. You're like, this is a good one. No, this one's, this one's not going to happen. But some of them can be quite large and they're going to fall eventually. And you almost want to be careful as you push it. Push too hard. The top could break off and hit you. Right? Like if it's wobbly and you push the bottom, the top can, so you got to be a little careful, but you give it a couple of good pushes and it just comes out of roots and crashes to the ground. Daniel (05:16.192) no! Daniel (05:22.598) You're Daniel (05:28.078) that's a good point. Daniel (05:37.48) So there is some danger in it, yes. So we're not necessarily, for legal reasons, encouraging our listeners or recommending to our listeners to push down trees, but because there is inherent danger. So yes, so we're going against the game. I love that, yeah. And oftentimes, the game has some sort of built-in Kevin (05:37.998) Incredible Hulk. Kevin (05:48.558) Correct. But you probably should, but you shouldn't. Yes. Common sense. Daniel (06:06.715) mechanism or kind of automated opponent, right? You're like some sort of, well, when we talked about solo games, we talked about like an AI, except it's not really AI because it's not electronic, but some sort of system that mechanism in the game where it almost simulates an opponent, right? Who's like playing against you in some ways in a lot of those cooperative games. Kevin (06:24.216) Yes. Kevin (06:27.662) So it might block you in locations as work replacement. It might scramble some of the cards if there's drafting going on. And it might, you you've got to catch up to its marker on the board. So it's doing things that, like you said, simulates, but it doesn't really know the board state. Daniel (06:43.003) Yeah, ramp up, right, ramp up the obstacles, kind of things like that. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (06:47.256) Yeah, I played a few games where they tried to, it's almost like a decision tree. And so it was really more of like an AI where it's, if you're in this situation in the board, then this would happen. Daniel (06:59.309) okay, okay. Kevin (07:00.45) but you're basically a robot to the AI. Daniel (07:03.663) Okay, okay, interesting. Kevin (07:05.888) So in that sense it's trying to figure out what's going on on the board even though it can't see. But generally that's not how they work because that's really complicated. Daniel (07:10.813) Okay. Daniel (07:15.549) So I think a lot of cooperative games are like that where you're trying to beat the board, beat the game, some sort of, and we call it an AI, and I was gonna say a simulated AI, but then that's also, that's like an, it's an AAI, like an automated, an artificial artificial intelligence. Kevin (07:43.406) Do you know what ATM stands for? Daniel (07:45.689) No, what does it stand for? Kevin (07:47.914) automated teller machine. Daniel (07:50.875) I did know what that meant. Thank you. No, that's good. And now that you mentioned it, yes. Kevin (07:55.052) And the teller is the person that tells you if you got any money. Hey, if I got any money, it is funny we call them the teller. Daniel (07:59.11) OK, right, right, right. because they tell us our money status. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. I thought it was gonna be like an artificial. Kevin (08:05.068) Yeah, I guess. First change. Daniel (08:13.511) Teller. Kevin (08:14.786) I think it's automated, the AutoMAT. Yeah, an AutoMAT. Daniel (08:18.395) No, no, no, yeah. I was making a bad AI joke. It was not good. So that's one way that cooperative games are played, are against some sort of you're trying to beat the game, the game's trying to beat you. Play, play. Everyone can see your cards. Kevin (08:22.518) It was good, no, it was good, you inspired me. was good, I liked it. Automatic. Kevin (08:32.45) writing for your turn, stupid. Play. You are slow and you smell horrible. Why do you sweat? Please consider the silicon paper. Little bag from my box. may keep it and you'll help you not sweat. Disgusting play. Daniel (08:50.973) Leave me alone game, leave me alone. I don't judge you game, don't judge me. Though, speaking of, I don't think I could ever criticize a game for its, new board games have quite, are you a fan of the new board game smell? We're on a tangent here, but you know what I'm talking about? Kevin (09:10.978) We've been on a tangent for 52 years, Daniel. Yeah, yeah, it is a nice smell. It is this nice smell. Yes. Daniel (09:13.339) We have, we have. When you first open a box and it's like a new car smell but with board games, it's quite nice. Kevin (09:22.338) Yes, and there's both hope and despair for me because I'm really excited and hopeful but then there's a little despair of like I've got to punch these things out and I'm gonna like it for about 10 seconds and I'm gonna get annoyed I don't know about you, but all the cardboard punching sometimes is Daniel (09:27.677) Hmm. Daniel (09:34.489) okay. Daniel (09:39.442) Yeah, I'm kind of with it. I do like it at first and then it kind of gets a little weird. that's true. That's true. Right. Yeah. But so that's one type of cooperative game, but there's kind of another type of cooperative game in which you're not trying necessarily to beat the game, but you're just trying to see how much you can score against the game. Yeah. So that's not necessarily like you're winning or losing. You're just keeping track of like, this time we scored as a team 25 and Kevin (09:42.69) Yeah, so it's like, boy, boy, boy, boy. Yeah. Kevin (09:51.342) Mm-hmm. Kevin (10:06.765) Mm-hmm. Daniel (10:09.718) Last time we scored 20, so we're improving our score against the game or something like that. Does that seem fair as well? Yeah. Kevin (10:14.038) Yeah, yeah, and you're thinking of like just one and some other games like that where you are picking Yeah, or the game could have a timer as well. So there's like can we beat can we get there in 20 moves or whatever? So yeah, yeah, so those that's more of just a limit to the game a score or a timer But versus something that really mimics a real person. So yeah, that's cooperative games Daniel (10:17.701) Yeah, which may show up later on. Daniel (10:26.129) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (10:36.349) Right. Yeah, yeah. And we were talking beforehand, they've not been around... super long time cooperative games, though we were discussing this before going on air. I guess there's a little uncertainty about when they first entered into the world gaming scene, but certainly like competitive games have been around since the beginning of human civilization, Like competitive tabletop games. dig sites around the world have unearthed, you know, competitive tabletop games, but cooperative tabletop games. Not so much. Kevin (11:19.148) No, no, it's a different type of thinking. Daniel (11:19.985) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, in preparation for this episode, um, I could not think, I was trying to think like, what's, what was the first cooperative game? Kevin, you know what the first cooperative game was? You know what it's called? It's called, it's called life. No, okay. Tree pushing. That's right. Tree pushing slash isn't tree pushing. It's a metaphor for life. That's right. Um, Kevin (11:40.28) Tree pushing. Tree pushing life. Kevin (11:49.23) You Daniel (11:53.158) The, I did a little bit of research and asked AI, but I think we know, Kevin, you and I have done some studies of history board games. So I think, mean, it seemed to gel with what you and I have read and researched as well, which was that. One of the first known instances of cooperative gaming rules was the alternative set of rules, which may or may not actually be historical fact, but at least it exists in our cultural mind's eye. Maybe it's apocryphal, but the story is that when Elizabeth Maggie developed the Landlord's Game around the turn of the century, She made two sets of rules, competitive rules and cooperative rules, which she called the prosperity rules. We talked about Elizabeth Maggie on a previous episode. She was a Quaker Christian and very concerned about social inequality and issues of social justice and economic justice. She designed this game with two sets of rules, the story goes, to show how much better it is if we cooperate with each other than if we try to make each other go bankrupt. And then famously, of course, Kevin (13:31.79) Co-op was discarded. Daniel (13:33.917) like Calcrop, what's this cart right? And then the competitive was kind of spread virally and picked up by somebody else, Who trademarked it, changed the name to Monopoly and became rich on it. Kevin (13:46.2) think he did pay her for the rights, but it was not compared. He didn't exactly steal it, right? But you didn't know you didn't, but you're implying that he just sort of picked it up. think, he? This is a little hazy. I've spent a while since I've looked at this, but I'm thinking like, but she kind of put it out there in the public domain and then it got really popular and made a lot of money. And that game is Monopoly. Yeah. It was Monopoly 1904. I think that's what I'm remembering. Yeah. Daniel (13:49.531) Yeah. did I say steal? Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know. Yeah. Daniel (13:59.345) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (14:07.389) I think that's Monopoly, yeah. I think I've heard that she was paid maybe $500 for it or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (14:16.206) but it went on to be hugely successful, as we all know. And it's kind of the bane of a board gamer's existence, because someone who's not into modern board gaming will say, you mean like Monopoly? And I'm like, yes and no. I mean, it is a board game like Monopoly, but we don't really play that one. So it has universal exposure in many countries and cultures. Like everyone's played it once. But I didn't realize that the co-op prosperity rules might be Daniel (14:18.791) Yeah. Daniel (14:33.809) Yeah, yeah. We often lament. Daniel (14:39.751) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (14:46.126) a might be an urban legend, but you're saying it might be. Daniel (14:52.989) I've read a couple different things on it, one saying that it was the case and one kind of questioning whether there ever were kind of alternative sets of rules. But anyway, if it existed, that was kind of early example around the turn of the century, not this century but the previous century. then cooperative games really kind of began to be produced in the 1980s by Kevin (15:03.011) Hmm. Okay. Daniel (15:19.704) family-themed games, games geared toward adults and children playing together. And then seems like arguably, know, it gets to be cooperative games really become mainstream with the huge success of the cooperative board game pandemic, right, in 2008, which so many people know and love. Kevin (15:35.947) And that's what most people are going to think of, that no modern board games are going to go to pandemic. Which was inspired by the avian flu, right? I think so. I think that was in a book I read. It was the the bird flu that first alerted Matt Leacock and then became popular, of course, during the COVID pandemic to play the game. But it actually was inspired by the fears of bird flu. Daniel (15:41.213) Yeah. Daniel (15:46.907) Was it really? Daniel (16:03.823) Interesting, interesting. I didn't know that. Kevin (16:05.07) Because you recall, I that's the first time I saw lots of people masked on TV. We weren't doing it here, but in South Korea and other countries, there's a lot of masking going on because it was becoming a problem there. For some reason, it never got a big toe hold here in the United States, thankfully. Daniel (16:10.417) Yeah. Daniel (16:20.263) Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I didn't know that. Kevin (16:28.204) Yeah, so that's cooperative games. yeah, go ahead. Did it catch off? Daniel (16:33.209) No, no, but it's not the only, Kevin, you were saying before we go online, there's kind of a cousin of cooperative games. So what's that? What's semi-co-op? Kevin (16:40.61) Yeah, there's a semi-co-op. There's semi-co-op. So that's where there's a couple of variations. Yeah, I'd say there's two variations. One is where you've got a traitor in the midst. So there's a hidden traitor. So everyone's kind of working together. But either somebody is or will become the bad guy. And then that will change the game. So Betrayal in House of the Hill or Blood on the Clock Tower. those sorts of games. I can go seek. I guess you're not really co-op. But I mean, you get flipped when you get touched, right? Like you have to join the others. Yeah, Battlestar Galactica or Unfathomable and those sorts of. And then there are some games that are very interesting. I'm going mention one later, so stay tuned. But in that, you're kind of working together, but you also have another agenda. So we've got more sophisticated games such as that. Yeah. Daniel (17:16.349) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (17:39.165) OK, interesting. Kevin (17:43.406) So you kind of want to work together, but you score points in the end by yourself. Daniel (17:47.462) Okay. And within the case of trader games, the game is played as if with the understanding that everyone is working together, but knowing that someone is not, but we just don't know who, right? So you play as if everyone's working together. Yeah. We should record the podcast like a trader game. Like one of us is a Kevin (18:00.526) Correct, A hidden traitor, yes. Someone traitorous. Kevin (18:12.642) Which is exactly what the trader would say, isn't it? Daniel (18:14.973) unless the trader is trying to throw off the trail there. Kevin (18:25.304) I actually played Battlestar Galactica just last weekend for like the second or third time. It's good, it's good, but... Daniel (18:30.663) How was it? Kevin (18:36.03) Yes, it is up in the... You're either a traitor at the beginning or you get turned halfway through the game. And my character is very likely to become a traitor, they start out a second later in the game. They start out in the brig, and I was a traitor. And then the other person, they thought must be the traitor as well, and they threw them in the brig, and that pretty much ended the game. So it was kind of hilarious. Yeah. Daniel (18:44.678) Okay. Daniel (19:02.607) no. Kevin (19:06.296) Like it's okay, but it was kind of funny. like, well, you got us. And they're like, we did, yay. Kind of, yeah, yeah, once we're stymied. So, yeah. Daniel (19:10.429) Yeah, that's the end of the game. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. There's no getting out of the brig. Kevin (19:20.878) There is, but we couldn't have managed it in time. Like there was a timer going on, so we couldn't have gotten what we needed to get out. So one of the mechanics is you suspect someone of being a traitor in that game and you put them in the brig. But just by the oddities of the game, we ended up starting there when we were revealed as traitors. Daniel (19:32.465) Yeah. Okay. Daniel (19:42.378) that's frustrating. I'm sorry. That's bad luck. Kevin (19:44.502) No, it's actually fun. In fact, I was thinking about this, Daniel. It's one of my favorite things about a co-op game. They tell a good story. And you know, I love a good game. I love a good euro. Love a puzzle. But even more than that, I like those moments. You're like, do you remember that time? We played. I mean, I just told you like, and for us, it'll be like, man, that was so funny. So yeah, you create these memorable moments because you're working together or things happen or you have to do something. And yeah, co-ops. Daniel (19:50.897) Yes! Yes. Daniel (20:00.86) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:12.529) Kevin, you are once again the master of transitions because as you have proved yourself on previous episodes, getting into the section now about thinking about the of the benefits of spiritual, the spiritual benefits of cooperative games or the joy of cooperative games. I think that's a great example. that's of it. Cooperative games allow you to tell a good story together. Right. Yeah. Just like you just like you just did with Battlestar Galactica. Kevin (20:16.876) Huh. Kevin (20:31.596) Hmm Kevin (20:42.54) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't mind losing. well, right. Wasn't much else we could do. just the way it worked out. Daniel (20:45.787) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think even more than competitive games where you might go tell a good story about like, I pulled it out at the end or I lost it all at the end, which is fine. But you can tell that when a group tells a story together, that's really exciting. Cooperative games make for good storytelling, good narratives. Yeah. Kevin (21:00.984) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:12.376) They do, they do. Daniel (21:16.258) yeah, other thoughts. Kevin (21:17.314) Yeah, they create shared narratives as one of them, as we were saying, and that's a real benefit of cooperative games. And what are some others? Daniel (21:27.931) Yeah, well, know, think another one is, I mean, it's the name of the episode, but I have to believe, and I think there's some scientific evidence for it as well, that, you know, we as a species are hardwired for cooperation, right? That there's, there's, I've... heard different evolutionary biologists talk about this, right? That's one of the distinguishing characteristics of our species, right? That we can do amazing things working together, right? That's how we human beings are made. And certainly there are spiritual parallels to that too, right? That just our hearts are wired, our souls are wired to to work with other people. Kevin (22:25.922) Yeah, no, we built cities. We are much more of a, political animals, as Sarastro said, meaning we live in cities and we tend to be herd animals versus like a cat. It can be in a little bit of a pack, but they can also go solo. So yeah. Daniel (22:43.633) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I read a book recently, actually I listened to the audio book of it by Jonathan Haidt, who said something to the effect of, we're like 10 % chimpanzee and 90 % bumblebee or something, or honeybee or something like that. But just that, know, that a huge part of us reflects that same kind of cooperative community nature that you see in certain other populations in the animal world like the bee. yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. cooperative games are great for creating a shared narrative. They're great because they help us to kind of tap into this impulse that is hardwired into us. Kevin (23:24.204) Hmm, that's lovely. Daniel (23:43.581) evolutionarily and also spiritually to work with others toward greater objectives than we can achieve on our own. Any other thoughts on what makes cooperative games good for life, good for the soul? Kevin (23:59.178) We know, yeah, got, yeah, that's a good one, that our words are powerful and it's great to be able to contribute and be part of things. It's also great to be able to listen. So how do you contribute? And hopefully if you do all these games, everyone gets a chance to sort of have the winning like, what if we did this and did this? So that's really nice to see various people shine at various times. Daniel (24:05.181) Hmm. Daniel (24:13.586) Yes. Daniel (24:22.129) Yeah, that's a good, yeah. Daniel (24:27.655) Yeah. Kevin (24:27.96) But it's the ability to, you know, sometimes you don't agree if the table's like, should do this strategy, but it's not your turn or you get out voted and you have to just suck it up. Right. And maybe you were right and you have to go like, I told you guys. And you have to live with that. But you know, it's just a game. That's where you can take that moment. Seriously, but not too seriously. And other times you're like, wow, gee, Willikers, I was wrong. I'm so glad we did. We went with the strategy. Daniel (24:45.383) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (24:52.369) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (24:57.639) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:58.038) So yeah, and then listening and giving other people a chance. Like, let's do it. Daniel (25:01.309) Yeah, right, right. Yeah, good practice. I like that. That's a nice way to put it. Yeah, good practice for listening to others and opening oneself up to direction or advice or thoughts that you may not have, may not. Kevin (25:07.342) Kevin (25:16.419) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:20.878) And then being honest about your own thoughts. Like, hey, I think that's a terrible idea. Like, you know, you've got to bring that to the table. If that's what you really see, like, ah, we're going to lose if this, if we roll a six on this, we're going to, you whatever happens. Daniel (25:24.763) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (25:35.313) No, I do find, I do find in some ways cooperative games provide some practice in that area at the right time. at certain times, you need to say something. But the right times of holding back too a little bit as well. One thing we haven't talked about is the alpha gamer, which is part of the. So before I get into my point, yeah, Kevin, what's the alpha gamer when it comes to cooperative games? Kevin (25:58.114) Yes. Well, it's a reference to the alpha dog, the head of the pack, and it's somebody that just really takes charge. They sometimes don't even know they're doing it. They just kind of want to tell everyone what to do. So they, they. Yes, and they may be right, and they may be the most experienced, but they don't know how to stop. And it's a problem. It's a problem. Daniel (26:15.517) Yeah, yeah. So if you want to start their turn, they say, you should do this. You should, yeah. Daniel (26:23.559) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. no, I think my first two experiences of cooperative games was in that kind of environment and it's a turn off to, you just feel like you're spending the whole time being told what to do by other people. But the flip side of that is, and you're right, sometimes you need to say something, but the flip side of that is, I think also. Daniel (26:49.629) Cooperative games can give us practice. in realizing that we there are times when it's okay to hold back, right? That there are times, there are times when it's okay not to tell someone what to do, right? Yeah, like I've been talking about Quaker Christians a lot this episode, but it makes me think of another Quaker Christian besides Elizabeth Maggie, a contemporary to us, Parker Palmer is a Quaker author. Kevin (27:01.656) Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:06.296) Yes. Kevin (27:14.67) Hmm. Kevin (27:21.742) Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:23.285) and he has this beautiful passage. I forget what it's called. I think maybe it's in his book, Let Your Life Speak, but he has this beautiful passage where He talks about how much harm we've done, how much harm we do sometimes in relationships under the guise of just wanting to help, Like just wanting to give advice and how that's kind of can, if it's done wrongly, create wedges between parents and children, know, between friends. Kevin (27:52.994) Mm-hmm. Daniel (28:06.557) And again, yeah, of course there are times when you need to do that. You know, need to tell your child not to touch the oven or things like that. But it can do damage if it means that you never, you know, learn to respect the other person as you know, autonomous human being with their own agency in the world, you know. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:13.038) Mm-hmm. Kevin (28:33.166) Yeah, we all want agency. mean, it's an important part of games. Daniel (28:36.091) Yeah, yeah. so I think there are those moments. Cooperative games invite us into that consideration. Cooperative games invite us, if for nothing else, to consider that kind of dynamic and maybe just learn from it, draw some spiritual lessons from that, maybe is this the time where it's okay, where I need to say something to this other person in the hopes of... Better playing experience for all of us that we play better or is this the time when I hold back a little bit? Even though this isn't what I would do because I want this other person to Know that they have agency and authority in the game as well, you know They don't have and it's not just about me telling them what to do Kevin (29:16.514) Yeah, and there's a wisdom to that and it just takes time and experimentation and sometimes you're wrong, but you've kind of fumbled through it. At least you're aware of it. And yeah, being able to listen and speak up and I heard a funny story about this is a long time ago. This storyteller guy was saying something about he's into a bit of working on his car, but his dad knew a lot about it. Daniel (29:22.331) Yeah, yeah. Amen to that. Daniel (29:35.163) Yeah. Kevin (29:42.038) And he was trying to move these hoses and something his dad walked by and saw what he was doing. And he said, here, you're to want this. And he gave him a pencil. And the guy didn't understand why his dad gave him a pencil, but ends up pulling the hose and oil just start shooting to his face because he's under the car, like on one of those little dolly things. So then he had the pencil to shove it up in the tube. So dear old dad, didn't tell him what to do, but he gave him the pencil. Daniel (29:59.71) No. Yeah, yeah. Hahaha! Daniel (30:10.909) That's a nice balance. That's a nice balance. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (30:12.172) Yeah, yeah. And now he knows, like, okay. Because I could tell you, don't pull that off, but you might do better actually experiencing the oil in your face. Yeah, yeah. But co-op games, they're just great for learning about how different people are. And some people are not going to speak up and you get the chance to sort of say like, what do you want to do, Maggie, right? And hopefully give her the space to... Daniel (30:22.173) That's great, that's great. Daniel (30:29.916) Yeah. Daniel (30:36.317) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (30:41.582) make a choice, which is nice. Encouraging them to share, but recognizing that they're different or like, hey, do you want to make a suggestion or do you want to pass or like, what do you want to do? And watching different people's different styles, whether they're aggressive or not, they're risk avoidant, know, you bring all that to the table. Very cool. Daniel (30:42.695) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (30:53.191) Yeah, yeah, that's right. Daniel (31:04.689) Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I love that. They're a good way of getting to know the people around the table better, in at least a small way, maybe in some larger ways too, depending on what the game is about or the mechanism. Some cooperative games are built around sharing your thoughts or something like that or your story, and those can help too. But yeah, I love that. What kind of person is this? or who, not in a judgy way, but in a curious way. Yeah, curiosity way. Yeah. So I like it. So those are all good reasons to play. Kevin (31:44.204) Let's do some lists. Time for a listicle. Daniel (31:47.161) It is the top five cooperative games. Kevin (31:52.332) with honorable mentions. Daniel (31:53.534) with honorable mentions at this moment in space and time for Kevin and me, for whatever that's worth. That's right. So we're going to begin with honorable mentions. Kevin (32:05.144) Yes. Daniel (32:09.714) The. I could start with my honorable mentions. I've got two. How many honorable mentions do you have? Great. You want to go back and forth, back and forth? OK. And for our dear listeners, don't know what's on each other's lists. So this will be a surprise to you as much as it is to us. Though, Kevin and I know each other well enough that I think we could guess a few on each other's lists. Do you think there'll be any crossover between your list and my list? Yeah. Kevin (32:16.46) I want you to have to have to also. Yes. Kevin (32:40.94) No, maybe one, but I'm not sure. We've not played a lot of co-ops together and you don't talk about them much. So I've got one. I'm gonna write one down on this piece of paper that I think you'll say. Daniel (32:48.507) No. Daniel (32:52.997) Okay, okay. Okay, okay. All right, I'm excited for this. And, Daniel (33:07.773) Okay, okay, all right. I'm going to write down one. Kevin (33:09.454) Do you have any you want to guess from me? Daniel (33:23.621) No, I got one. I've got one. I'm writing down one that I think is going to be on your list. Daniel (33:32.925) I'm going to write down two that I think will be on your list. Not to up the ante or anything there. It's just kind of, just because you're an amazing human being and you share. Kevin (33:45.23) I'm gonna guess you put this on here, you've never, I don't think you've mentioned it to me. So I'm gonna put it on here, but maybe you've played it. Daniel (33:51.932) I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess seven games that are on your top five. Kevin (33:56.302) I'm gonna guess 5,000 in your top one of the five of those are in your games I'm gonna guess the whole the whole board game geek catalog Cut and paste 30 gigabytes later Daniel (34:04.604) All right, that sounds good. All right. You are correct. So audible mention. So yeah, I'll go with one. if that's OK, we'll go back and we'll end with some great Kevin selections. All right, my first honorable mention. A lot of these games on my list are games I've talked about before. I'm sorry, but they're just games I really like a lot. Kevin (34:19.735) Okay. Yep. Daniel (34:32.247) My first honorable mention is Similo. Similow is a cooperative game that I first heard from recommended by Suzanne Sheldon on the Salt and Sass gaming podcast. had Mandy Hutchison on our show before. She's one of the co-hosts of that. Yeah, but Similow is a... These are all cooperative games, obviously. This is a card game. Kevin (34:56.59) Callback. Daniel (35:05.615) where they come in different packs, different sets, but I'll just talk about like the animal set. Like you have like a deck of cards with everyone has every card is a unique animal on it, a giraffe, a rhinoceros, an elephant or whatever. And you shuffle it up. The clue giver and the clue giver has a secret animal in mind that they're trying to get their teammates to guess. If they correctly guess the secret animal, they win. If in the correct number of times, if they don't, then everybody loses. And your secret animal is on the table within a grid of other animal cards that are face up. And your teammates are trying to eliminate progressively different cards, increasing number of cards from the grid until only your secret animal is left. And you can't talk. The only clues you can give are by playing other animal cards out. And if it is Kevin (35:44.878) Mm-hmm. Daniel (36:05.403) in the same orientation as the grid, that means there's something similar between your clue animal and the secret animal. And if you put it perpendicular to the orientation of the grid, that means there's something different between the clue animal and And so people are always trying to guess like, well, this was a bird and it's different from a bird, so we can eliminate all the birds. Or this animal has red eyes and it's similar, so we got to look for animals with red eyes. Or maybe it's the fact that it's a carnivore. What carnivores are they? Because they don't really know what you're thinking of is a similar difference. It's fun. So similo is my animal. First animal mentioned. What's yours? Yeah, thanks. Kevin (36:35.95) Hmm. Kevin (36:41.954) That's cool. That's cool. Mine is going to go to a game I've never played. Daniel (36:47.325) You rock. I love that. Kevin (36:48.718) Isn't that amazing? But I know I would like it. It's just, so Spirit Island. You know, it makes so many lists and I actually own the cheap Target version that cheap like, you know, it's like half as much because it was a special edition for Target. And I've sort of tried to, but the rule book, I don't know. I got a little lost in the rule book. It's one of those that I, I'd rather someone teach me or play with. Daniel (36:54.118) You Daniel (37:02.374) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (37:15.461) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (37:16.418) But I get the gist of it and people just brag on and on about it. So I'm gonna list honorable mention is Spirit Island that one day I will play. Thanks, thanks. Daniel (37:24.157) That's a great one. Yeah. So many people, you're right, listed as their number one game. That's great. I love that. Good one. Good, good, My second honorable mention is a newer game called Ito. Ito, I-T-O. It is a... Have you ever played Wavelength by Wolfgang Warch? Yeah, that's fine. It's similar to that. Kevin (37:30.626) Yeah, yeah. What's your other one? Kevin (37:47.117) No. Daniel (37:50.812) but in a non-competitive way and it's only with cards. But basically, there is a card that comes out that lists two ends of a spectrum. Like food I would totally want to eat and food I would totally not want to eat or something like that. Or a celebrity I'd want to meet and a celebrity I would not want to meet. then everyone gets dealt a card secretly at random between one and a hundred. And you... Kevin (38:06.062) Hmm. Daniel (38:19.617) say something that you think matches your number on that relative to that spectrum. for food I'd want to eat, 100 is my favorite food in the world. Zero is I would never want to this food. And so like I get pizza, I might say pizza and I put it out on the table. I don't say my number. And then everyone else would say, maybe someone would say lasagna, maybe somebody would say Kevin (38:39.32) Betta. Daniel (38:50.127) raw garlic or something like that, or, you know, raw onion. And what you know of the people on the table, you're trying to put these in order to predict what number they got on at least relative to each other on a scale of zero to a hundred. It's a great fun game. And if you get it in the right order, everybody wins. If it's not the right order, everyone loses. But it's really good for getting to know people. It's one of those games where you just, get to know what people like and don't like around the table. Kevin (39:14.146) Hmm. Daniel (39:18.193) but not really too intrusive of topics. It's great. So ETO, E-T-O-I-T-O. Kevin (39:18.606) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Daniel (39:28.239) or itto. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (39:30.368) Ito. I love it. I it. I never played that one. That's very cool. Two new pic, new to me pics. Look at that. I'm going to go with a little game that was popular and there's a bunch of sequels, but I think it's so charming and that is Micro Macro. I think that's a great little game. It's a little silly, but there's whimsical art. There's really interesting bits. It's all black and white, sort of penciled. Daniel (39:38.461) Cool. Daniel (39:48.187) That's so great. That's a great choice. Daniel (39:56.957) you Kevin (39:59.022) or inked, like there's no shading. Well, I shouldn't say there's no shading, but it's very simple drawings and it's in a huge, I think like 500 millimeters by 490 millimeters. I just made that up. don't know really what a millimeter is. It's like a yard by yard, right? Which is your shoulder to your fingers, right? Is that fair? Is it that big? It's pretty big. So you unfold this piece of paper and it's a... Daniel (40:19.495) Okay. Daniel (40:24.339) It is big. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (40:28.248) The one I have is Crime City, but it's a city, but even though it's a drawing, it's actually chronological. So everything has happened in a sequence on there. So you're not seeing things in a snapshot. You're seeing them almost as if it's a cartoon that's all been laid out. And so you've got to figure out what's happened within this city. Is that making sense a little bit? So that's what took me at first. I was confused. Daniel (40:48.957) Yeah, yeah, that absolutely. Yeah, no, I think it's well explained. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (40:54.85) But yeah, like the car is there and the car is there and the car is there because he's actually moving. So you have to understand that. So you have little missions that you and a friend will work on, you know, about a bank heist. And you have to figure out where the bank robber went and how they got into the bank. And so you find the bank and you find the guy that's stealing and you go backwards and forwards. there's all sorts of little clever tricks of how they mess with that. And I think that's a lot of fun. Yeah. Daniel (41:00.039) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (41:20.071) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great choice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's micro macro. Yeah. Kevin (41:25.312) It's light. It's yeah, if somebody's not into games, but you want a little activity, it's almost like doing a puzzle together. It's just sort of relaxing. Daniel (41:32.829) It comes with a little magnifying lens, too, so you can really find. Kevin (41:37.666) Yes, you get a magnifying and they have the answers. So you're not if you really are stuck you can get hints and the answers in the little cards, which is clever. So you're not just thwarted forever. Daniel (41:47.879) Yeah. It's like if Where's Waldo told a story sort of kind of like that. It's, that's a great choice. I like it. Kevin (41:53.44) Yes, the artwork is very worth Waldo. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I was late to it. I bought it maybe a year ago, and it was very popular three or four years ago. And I was like, oh, I see why people like this so much. So yeah, that's a good little one. Daniel (42:08.583) Yeah. Good choice, good choice. So those are our honorable mentions. Are you ready to dig into the top five? All right, all right. Kevin, this is one that we've talked about before and you and I have played before. My number five, do you wanna guess? It's okay if not. We played it at Geekway. Kevin (42:12.056) Thank you, thank you. Mm-hmm. Go for it, bruh. Kevin (42:32.952) First... First letter. Daniel (42:35.293) W. Kevin (42:39.384) Where's Waldo? Daniel (42:40.925) That's okay. That's this most, it's okay. Future you is, it's awesome. No, no, no. It's all good. I just sprung this on you. Wilmott's Warehouse. Wilmott's Warehouse is the, yeah, it is a great game that is Kevin (42:42.51) W I'm gonna kick my future me is very frustrated and I'm about to meet future me Go ahead Kevin (42:57.248) Of course. Daniel (43:10.077) Cooperative with the right group. It just sings it just sings It it may not necessarily be for every group though Which is maybe kind of why I put it at the lower end of my list, but it is unique. There's no I To me at least in my view, it's it's a unique game. I've never played anything else like it It is a cooperative storytelling game Where you yeah? Kevin (43:32.334) Mm-hmm. Kevin (43:37.876) memory storytelling. Yeah. Daniel (43:39.454) Yes, you're using the cooperative creation of stories as memory aids to memorize where things are on this massive grid. And you go into it thinking there's no way I'm going to remember where everything is on this grid. But through this magic of cooperative story creation, storytelling as a team around the table, you usually end up remembering most everything. It's such a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Willmott's Warehouse is a great game. Kevin (44:02.7) It's cool, it's cool. It's hard to get a really good time, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I really like that game and everyone should play it. If you like board games, you must play this at some point, somehow some way. But I've played it some and you know, it's a little bit of a one trick pony. Like, why have you played it? So you kind of want to play it with different people, but you don't. And I guess if you really love it, you could try to get your time down. Daniel (44:19.527) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (44:26.002) Yeah. Kevin (44:30.328) But it's one of those that I'm not sure how much I'll play it again. And I have to say that it really invites the alpha gamers, the people that are really good at remembering stuff. So whenever I played it, I tend to be a little more backseat. Like I'll say something funny or I might, there's something I do recall. But yeah, the people that are all over it are just in it. And I'm not one of those people. That's so minor because it's such a great game. It's so interesting. Daniel (44:40.059) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (44:51.227) Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, no. Kevin (44:58.23) And you just see people when they start getting it, their eyes come, they're like, I have to remember this. Daniel (45:02.781) Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's really fair assessment. Yeah, yeah. No, I didn't think about that. But it is very prone to the alpha gamer. You're right. Because it's about remembering stories as memory aids. And if there's somebody around the table who just remembers all the stories, then you can just kind of let them take it. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (45:09.354) Is it OK? Because maybe it's just my. Kevin (45:17.326) I think it, yeah. Kevin (45:24.962) Yeah, they just spatially, they just remember. Yeah, they're going to they're going to be quite. Have you played it much? For example, do you play it often? Daniel (45:32.412) No, I think you're right that your experience has been my experience too, which is again, probably why it's a bit lower on my list. I put my list just because it is such a unique and wonderful experience. well, yeah, but no, you're right. I, I've not, I've played it a few times. It's not the kind of game I would want to keep going back to with the same group, right? But you're right. Like if I'm with a new group, it'd be fun to say, Hey, let's play it. But week in week out. Kevin (45:38.016) Okay, okay. Yeah. No, you're right. It really could have been on my list. It's probably number six for me. Yeah. Kevin (46:00.972) It's a good filler game. Daniel (46:02.075) It's not a good repeated game with this game to repeat with the same group. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. So that's my five. What's your five? Kevin (46:05.272) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair. My number five, Flood on the Clock Tower, which is so much fun. Have you played it yet? Have you played it? it's so good. The reason it's low for me is it's hard to get a group together. Like you really need 10 people or so. You can play with less, you can get by with, mean, you can play with less, you can play with five. don't think it would work real well, but it's possible. There are rules for it. Daniel (46:12.669) yes, no, but I want to I want to. Daniel (46:21.981) Hmm. Kevin (46:34.306) But you really want like eight to ten people and that's a little tricky people to commit and play this game. But it's just so interesting and fun. And that is a game you go back to just because every time there's such a different mix of people and we've not even played the harder scenarios. We've only played the basic scenario. So it's just. So the premise and I find some people I have I had very distinct experiences playing the mafia game. Daniel (46:48.477) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (46:54.397) What's the premise in a nutshell of the game? Kevin (47:04.46) It was very popular in the 80s and 90s and I played it at camps and high school and things you put your head down and And somebody's a game master and it came there's an interesting story to the history of it came out of USSR At some point like they know exactly where it yeah, you go on YouTube. You'll see like they know the origins of this game and So it's basically a hidden trader game So there's one or two people that are bad and the mafia again their mafia and on the clock tower. There's a Daniel (47:07.003) Yeah. Daniel (47:12.018) Yeah. Daniel (47:19.003) I didn't know that. Huh. Daniel (47:27.837) Yeah, okay. Kevin (47:34.104) They're a demon and minions assistance to the demons and everyone else is a villager, but they're discussing. So in this is really a semi-co-op because some people are lying because they have to lie. Cause the demon won't survive if they told the truth. Yeah, it's just, it's just a, it's just a great game. It's very funny. It's very funny. We played on a family trip and I have a 10 year old nephew. Daniel (47:45.309) you Daniel (47:51.055) Okay, okay, okay. Sounds fascinating. Yeah, I've heard... I've heard people... Daniel (48:03.185) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (48:04.502) And his parents were absolutely convinced that he would never lie because it was too sophisticated a lie. But I was a game master and I knew the whole time he was like, it was so funny. It so funny. Like, I don't think he would do that. like, I couldn't say a word, but I just watched him concoct a story and I was like, way to go, my son, way to go. That was very good. Very good. What's your number four? Daniel (48:18.801) That's great. He's doing it quite well actually. Daniel (48:28.62) Hahaha I love that. Kevin (48:34.414) Yeah, and so the game, you get down to see who can survive. Daniel (48:39.569) Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Good choice. My number four is one, kind like you said, that you haven't played. I've played this one, but I don't, I don't own it. I played it for the very first time just a couple of weeks ago, a week or two ago when our, friends, Jordan and Chelsea friends of the podcast, they both been, came over to play. Kevin (48:41.464) That's the whole game. Thanks. Kevin (49:05.687) Mm-hmm. Daniel (49:08.581) Some games with us. It's Bombusters. Bombusters. Yeah, this is kind of a really popular cooperative game right now. So much so that I have been trying for a good couple months now to buy this game and I can't find it anywhere because they're sold out. Maybe the digital implementation of it. OK, OK. Thanks. But it's really fun. I can see why people really like it. It is... Kevin (49:12.654) Yeah, this is one of a bunch of awards. Kevin (49:24.27) think it's on board game arena, isn't it? I think it might be. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (49:37.406) You're a bomb defusing team and you are trying to cut the right wires together at the right time. But of course, if you cut the wrong wires together, then the bombs would explode and you lose. what it's really based around is numbers, thinking kind of logically about, okay, this person has this number wire. Kevin (50:02.638) Hmm. Daniel (50:06.333) And then this wire adjacent to it, I don't know the number of it, but then the wire adjacent to that is this number. And so it's got to be a number in between this number and that number. But this other person has that number. so there's only two occurrences of every, no, no, like three, four, four occurrences of every number. And so you're trying to, that's five, 20, 20,000, 20, that's right, that's right. But it almost kind of has, feels like a kind of a Sudoku sort of feel, right? Like you know, Kevin (50:11.342) That's so cool. Kevin (50:24.226) Five. Three. Twin. Billion. Kevin (50:35.374) I had no idea. didn't know. I saw an image and I knew it was about cutting wires, but I didn't know it had that almost like a search for planet X, like logic puzzle. Daniel (50:36.177) There's a certain. Daniel (50:41.465) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:45.595) Yeah, it's very logical. It felt like kind of a cooperative Sudoku or like, yeah. So I really liked it. I can see why people really love it and it plays quick, which is great. It's easy to explain the rules. So my number four is Bombusters. It's a great game. I can't wait till I can get a copy of my own. Yeah. Kevin (50:48.718) Cool. Kevin (51:01.112) so jealous. I'm so jealous. Yeah, yeah. Number four is a game that I never play anymore, but it still has a fond place in my heart because it's one of the first modern games, one of the early ones that I played in... Kevin (51:21.286) I'm gonna say 2018, 2017 or so, and that is Pandemic. And I have several iterations of it and it's just a great game. It's just a really great game. It's just somehow, I don't know, I should go back to it. I guess it's something that was, Somehow there's just other games that have supplanted it. And I think that's probably true for lot of people and probably every game is. Daniel (51:31.175) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hard to beat. Daniel (51:45.052) Yeah. But its influence has certainly been huge on games that have come after it. this, this, no, no, I, that's a great choice. The, the genius of that game for me, at least what I thought the mechanism I thought was so clever was how the cities where the viruses are exploding. Kevin (51:48.034) There's a trend to it, but... Kevin (51:53.922) And it's not hard, you rock it very quickly, yeah. Daniel (52:16.477) getting shuffled into the deck and they keep coming up with increasing frequency. And it really simulates this idea of the virus is kind of just really exploding in the places where it already is, you know, and it's a very clever mechanism. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Kevin (52:19.394) Yes, yes, yes, yes. Kevin (52:32.45) Yeah, no, is the whole way you construct the deck, which I don't think is the first one, but you have these city decks, but the epidemic cards are you create like five deck five you take a deck and you separate into five piles and you put one bad card in each pile and shuffle it. So, know, within every 10 cards, you're going to get a bad card that's going to cause an infection. And that was cool, Yeah. And lots of games use that. Daniel (52:55.345) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This pandemic is one of the games I wrote down for you, but I thought it would be on your list. So, yay! Kevin (53:03.278) Did you? Yeah, well, can you show me? Are you sure? Daniel (53:07.429) I can, but I've also written on my other game. So you'll see what other game I, okay. I'm going to fold it over. I'm going to fold it over so you don't see my other game. My, here it is. There it is. also Kevin rocks. I didn't write that on everything for our listeners who are not watching the video. I'm on the other side of my sheet. There's it. you're too kind, but there it is. Pandemic. So there you go. There you go. All right. Kevin (53:20.556) Yay! My stationery is Daniel is Awesome. That's my stationery. There it is. You did. You did. Speaking of micro macro, micro writing. You're number three, Daniel. Daniel (53:37.786) That's my number three. I want to sound like a broken record, but this was also on my list two episodes ago of favorite solo games. But it's also a great it's also a great cooperative game. I'm just really a big evangelist for it right now. Do you to do you want to guess, Kevin, what this might be? It's a V V. It's OK. V. Kevin (53:57.977) First letter? Kevin (54:04.066) V? Daniel (54:05.917) Remember the old TV show V? Yeah, where like people had alien like reptile skin under there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's okay. It is. No, it's okay. We're recording late in the day too. This is, it's harder. I'll just say it. Kevin (54:07.724) You do, I do. That was quite the thing. Kevin (54:12.94) Yeah, yeah, that was very popular. The. Kevin needs to go to bed earlier. I think I do, I think I do. Kevin (54:32.632) Yes. Daniel (54:33.767) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (54:35.598) Of course! I was looking at some lists today and this popped up. I didn't think of it because I have to pretend it doesn't exist because I haven't played it. But I'm jealous. Vantage is that good. Daniel (54:40.765) Yeah. Daniel (54:44.881) No, just say I just advantage this latest new game from StoneMire designed by Jamie Stegmeier. Yeah, I I'm just telling everyone about this game right now. I just love it. I just love it. It is. There's so many things which I think is why I like it, because it has so many good things going for it. I like how the setup it's a big game. It feels like a big it has a big game feel. Kevin (54:57.966) What do you like about it? Daniel (55:13.831) for sure. It has almost like an epic game feel, but the setup and tear down is so easy. So you're not spending massive amounts of time getting out all of these pieces and laying out all these things. It feels so sandboxy, by which I mean like you're playing in a sandbox as a metaphor for like you can do anything you want to. You really can. You can go north, east, south, west, up, down. You do have missions. Kevin (55:14.478) Mm-hmm. Kevin (55:21.42) Hmm. Kevin (55:26.68) Right. Daniel (55:43.102) Even though it's sandbox-y, there is something you can focus on. So you do have some sense of direction if you want that, but you don't have to use that. No, no, no. You could do something else and along the way, discover other ways of winning the game besides what mission you're assigned at the beginning of the game. You can upgrade things so well. You never lose an action. Kevin (55:48.918) Mm-hmm. really you don't have to do the missions Kevin (56:01.455) cool. Daniel (56:12.989) However, the actions can wear you down to lesser or greater extents. And when you're completely worn down in an area, that's when you lose. But there's something so that kind of removes a sense of punishment in it. Like you never try something that's so punishing, like you just fail again and again and again and again. It's just so well thought out. I just love this game. I'm sorry I could talk a lot about it, but it's cooperative as well. So I brought it to our church board game group a couple of weeks ago. Kevin (56:25.582) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (56:35.714) That's great. Daniel (56:41.853) and they loved it. They just really loved it. It was, so, and every mission feels so different. so it's just, every game feels deeply, deeply different. Anyway, that's my number three cooperative game by only like big game, big cooperative game, a big fuel cooperative game Vantage. Thanks. Sorry, I talked too much. Kevin (56:44.044) Hmm. Kevin (56:49.87) That's amazing replayability. Kevin (56:57.154) That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, that's it deserves it deserves that. That sounds like a real win. So good for good for them. Number three, Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion. I love Gloomhaven. I love the mechanic and Jaws of the Lion, I think is the best iteration of Gloomhaven because. Daniel (57:15.901) Yeah. Kevin (57:23.252) As you were saying, some games are just too much for setup and pieces and gloom haven and frost haven. have to assemble a map and with Jaws of the Line, it's on this bound book and you're just ready to go. But you get the genius gloom haven system. Have you played it, Daniel? Are you familiar with the two car? You pick two cards and it's all card based and you can pick a top and a bottom. And then eventually you've played all your cards. Daniel (57:41.293) I have. Jaws of the Lion, not the big one, yes. Yes. Kevin (57:51.502) Then you get to rest and you lose a card and you take them back. So eventually you're run out of cards So your the cards are both your actions and your timer and then some of the cards have yeah It's such a great bit and there's a top in the bottom and you must pick a top and a bottom and they've paired it so that you can't typically move both the bottoms are often move actions and so you can change your mind on which top and bottom you pick of your two cards, but Daniel (58:02.813) It's a genius. It's just genius. It's such a good system. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (58:21.154) You must pick one of those and there's some default actions too, but it's just so clever and doing it and we've had so many where we really you just need one person you need to defeat the boss and one person survive and you considered won the scenario. We've had so many come down to like one person and it's just really exciting. You're like, okay, I'm going to make my big move and die and can you carry the torch Daniel? And then you're like, yeah, we won. So it's it's really fun. Daniel (58:38.983) Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (58:46.183) Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. Kevin (58:50.638) I think Gleamhaven's great and had lot of good memories of playing with my youngest son during COVID. We played a lot of the first Gleamhaven. Daniel (58:58.937) It is a geniusly designed game. It's just, it's yeah, yeah. Can you say geniusly designed? Anyway, yeah, that's a great, that's a great. Kevin (59:05.453) You can, yeah, yeah. And it's a co-op. There is a little of a, you can have your own goals as well, but it's mostly a co-op. And you can play it solo, you just play two characters, which I think is too much for me, but it's a lot of work. A lot of strategy. Daniel (59:18.971) Yeah, I love it. May I show you the second game I wrote down that I thought you'd say? May I show you? And then I was also thinking, you want to say Glimhaven? So there, Glimhaven. I crossed out Mage Knight when I realized that's just solo, right? Kevin (59:32.738) You did. You did do Mage Knight, though. That was the third. You can play it with people, but I don't think it's very co-op. I guess you could. I don't know. It's such a weird game. You can fight or you can go on missions. Daniel (59:42.845) Okay, okay, okay. Daniel (59:49.597) Gleamhaven, great choice, great choice. thank you. Jaws a lot, yeah, yeah, good. Kevin (59:50.136) That's Quimham, thank you. Jaws the line specifically. It's 50 or 60 bucks. It's a great deal. Your number dose, numeral dose, Daniel. Daniel (59:57.246) Good, good, good. Again, one that listeners for a while have heard me talk about, but it's just, can't not put this on this list, which it's just one. The name of the game is just one. it's on Kevin's list. There you go. You're so good. You're so good, Kevin. Good job, good job. Kevin (01:00:26.722) Thank you. Daniel (01:00:26.909) If I'm being honest, I played this game so much, I'm kind of tired of it. Yeah, but I can't. I can't not put this on this list. It has been such a hit with everybody I play with. I, you know, we keep track. I keep track of board game stats. I think I probably play this this game with probably close to 100 people by by this point. We play it at every time every theology of play workshop that that we do. Kevin (01:00:31.982) I remembered you saying that, yeah. But you still have to rank it. Kevin (01:00:54.637) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:00:56.477) And everybody always loves it. And usually there's somebody looking on their phone trying to order it from some website. So it's just a great game. You're trying to cooperatively as a team guess the secret word. But people, and you're doing that by writing a word, only one word, just one word on your placard that you're going to be showing to the guesser. But if there are any... Kevin (01:01:04.269) You Kevin (01:01:20.59) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:01:25.115) words that are duplicated, you have to erase all instances of that word. And so you're trying to give clues that are good enough to get the person to guess the word, but not so obvious that someone else will give it, because then you eliminate both. It's just a great game. Kevin (01:01:31.094) smart. Kevin (01:01:40.142) And so many funny moments where no one picked a certain thing because everyone thought everyone else would pick it, but you wish you had. You're like, why didn't you put Incredible Hulk for green? Like, I thought you were going to. Yeah. So everyone's outsmarting each other. Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. That is cool. You know, I've played it a few times on your recommendation. I've enjoyed it, but I need to play it some more. But I do love that it's a 30 second. Daniel (01:01:45.202) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or Wookie for Chewbacca. But no one puts Wookie because he wants it for anyone who's going to put Wookie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great game. So. Kevin (01:02:08.76) will teach. So even people that don't like games will get into this one. So that's a good one. Number two, is it a repeat? I would argue not pandemic season one, because not only is it a co-op game, it's a legacy game. And one of the greatest gaming memories in my life is the surprise that, please don't look it up if you don't know, but it's somewhere you're playing through a year. So you're playing Daniel (01:02:12.549) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just went to my number two. What's your number two? Daniel (01:02:25.03) Yeah. Kevin (01:02:35.828) Roughly 12 games, but let you repeat so you could play 12 to 20 I think or something like that But in September October, there's a big reveal and we just didn't see it coming and we just fell out of our chairs They're like what just happened. It so good. So yeah, and so you're in a legacy game you are You only play it through so many times. You can't play it again traditionally. There's some exceptions to that. There are some games that do have a reset version, but in this year Daniel (01:02:50.171) That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. Kevin (01:03:05.57) Your cities get destroyed and you're stickers and power-ups and you change your character and new cards come out and it's just cool. I'd never seen anything like it. So I kept the game. I can't even play anymore. And I'm just like, this is my copy. Yeah. And it's number two or three on Board Game Geek of best game of all time. And yeah, I have a play them all. They're all good, but none of them, season one's just, you know, it's the Empire Strikes Back. Daniel (01:03:18.951) Yeah, yeah. Wow. Daniel (01:03:25.051) Right, right, yeah. Have you played the other seasons of Pandemic Legacy? Daniel (01:03:32.604) is the best. Kevin (01:03:35.246) like it's just no better. It's just the king. But the others are cool, especially they did, they did a see here, they did pandemic season one, season two, and they did zero, right? Daniel (01:03:36.495) Okay, okay, cool, cool. Daniel (01:03:50.262) Season zero, yeah, I think so. Kevin (01:03:52.226) Yeah, so it was the prequel and they called it Zero, which is hilarious. So good sense of humor. Yeah, pandemic season one. So much fun, even though I can't play it again. But I guess I could, I just would kind of know what was gonna happen. Daniel (01:03:55.153) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic choice. Yeah, I mean, think it's cool that it's a testament to it that you hold on to it even though you can't play it again. Yeah, to the quality of the game. A great choice. think Kristen, my wife and I started playing that Pandemic season, Legacy season one. For whatever reason, we kind of petered out. We never got to the big surprise that everyone always talks about. So maybe we got to return to it to get to the big surprise sometime. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (01:04:23.606) Okay. Yeah, it's worth, but I know, I I've got some games like that. I don't know why I stopped them. I just did. I, it's not, it's not you. Daniel (01:04:30.961) Yeah. Well, you're kind, thank you. My number one, speaking of my wife Kristen, I picked this because A, it's a great game. It really is a great cooperative game, but B, Kristen and I played this together and just really fond memories of us playing this cooperative game together. Kind of to the end, though there is no real end to it. And that is Dwarf Romantic. Dwarf Romantic. This is a cooperative board game. Kevin (01:04:35.639) Number one. Kevin (01:04:59.502) A word winning. Daniel (01:05:03.377) based on the video game. I guess it's a single player video game, but it's a cooperative game based on the video game. I think this one, Game of the Year, Spiel des Jahres, or at least it was nominated for it. And I think, yeah, it's kind of a divisive game in that some people just adore it. Again, it won an award or was nominated for it. Some people not. good, good. Thanks. I've heard some reviews where people are not even sure it's like a game, and I can see where they're coming from, but it's... Kevin (01:05:13.004) It did. Kevin (01:05:24.034) No, it won. won. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Kevin (01:05:32.215) you Daniel (01:05:33.316) It's just, it's a very pleasant experience. It's a very pleasant experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely one of these games, not where you're trying to beat the game. The game is not trying to beat you and you're not trying to the game. You're just trying to see how high score you can get. But you are laying out these hexes to build kind of a landscape carcassone style sort of, except it's not square. You're trying to build villages and forests and rivers. Kevin (01:05:36.052) Is it art? I don't know. There's like a toilet. I call it art. Kevin (01:05:45.336) Okay. Kevin (01:05:57.805) Hmm. Daniel (01:06:02.554) It's so gentle and pastoral, but you're also scoring their score options. And what's really well designed is the genius of it is that you keep track of your score on this sheet that carries over from play to play to play of the game. And once you achieve certain levels of scoring, then you unlock certain special tiles or certain special things that go on the game. And then they give you higher scores so that you can unlock. They're even like these little tuck boxes that you open up to where you pull out these new tiles. And so you're always kind of getting these little rewards, right, for getting a higher and higher score, which then allows you to get a higher and higher score in the future. And you keep track of this from game to game. And you're trying to get to this next level. Yeah. It's just a pleasant, peaceful. Kevin (01:06:50.606) Huh, I didn't know it had that. That's cool, I love a box. I love a Tuck box. Daniel (01:06:58.673) but engaging experience, gentle experience to share, especially with people you're close to. We've got really fond memories of playing Dwarf Romantic. So I'd say that would have to be my number one cooperative game. Yeah. Thanks. Kevin (01:07:13.038) That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, this tells you a lot about us folks, because Daniel's a good kind soul and that's what he's picked. And here I am and I've picked John Company. To the Cole Whirly game, it's. Ah, yes, I do love John Company. It's got to be one of my all time favorites just because it's so interesting. There's dice rolling and you take on different roles in this company. You are working together, but there it's you. Daniel (01:07:19.517) I'm not, that's nice of you. That's great, of course. Of course, of course. Daniel (01:07:34.392) Yes. Kevin (01:07:42.998) you win, but people win individually, which is very unusual. so there's a bit of wanting the company to succeed, but you want to succeed even more, which is kind of the story of capitalism. So it's very much, you know, how that works out that you want the company to do well so you can make enough money to put your grandparents and others into nice manner of state. So it's all a parable. It's not a parable. It's the history of the East India Trade Company. Daniel (01:07:57.105) Yeah. Kevin (01:08:12.29) the great British company that became the greatest monopoly in the history of the world. Every bit of tea for several centuries, including John Wesley's tea, passed through the hands of the East India Trade Company that was nicknamed the John Company. Made people filthy rich, and that was by exploiting India. And so you're supposed to feel bad that you're basically extracting wealth. And you do. Daniel (01:08:26.659) Interesting. Interesting. Kevin (01:08:41.09) But it's also fun because you invest in so many dice and you want to hit certain numbers. And when you do, everyone gets a payout and it creates a lot of energy and fun in the game. So yeah, John Company. Even though it's probably semi-co-op, yes. Daniel (01:08:54.301) Okay, John Company, all right. No, I should have known that that was, yeah, because you adore that game so much. That's great. That's great. Kevin (01:09:05.197) I do, I do, I do. I think I'm going to play it tonight, actually. So that's going to be fun. Daniel (01:09:08.635) Nice, nice. Solo or with some folks? Kevin (01:09:12.268) No, I've got some friends that I've got to teach it, but I've some people coming over. There is a solo version that works quite well, but it does keep you busy, but there is a genius way that... that somebody wrote the solo for it, yeah. Who always does the Cole Whirly games? Name escapes me, yeah. Daniel (01:09:25.084) Okay, okay. Daniel (01:09:31.229) Great, great. Well, I love it. That's a great choice. So there you go. No crossovers. And I think between the two of us, cooperative games that hopefully one of them or more than caught your attention, dear listeners. what was? Kevin (01:09:39.094) No crossovers. Kevin (01:09:47.672) Yes, and I guessed you might put pandemic, but that's I wasn't sure if you'd played it. I could not remember. Have you played the original? Okay, it just didn't. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (01:09:52.669) I have, I have, and I liked it. It's a good game. For whatever reason, I just didn't quite... Kevin (01:10:01.452) Hmm. Okay. Daniel (01:10:02.12) connect in quite as powerful a way. But it is a good game for sure. sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, good. Good. Well, yeah, hopefully listeners you found a game in there that maybe I haven't played before that sounds interesting to you. We really appreciate your listening. Kevin, this has been great. Kevin (01:10:18.989) Mm-hmm. Kevin (01:10:22.978) Tell us yours in the comments below or by email. Playsavestheworldatgmail.com Tell us your favorite. us those ones you love and why. Daniel (01:10:26.343) We'd love to. Gmail.com. Yeah. Yeah, we'd love to hear. We'd love to hear. Kevin, one of us was the trader. Kevin (01:10:40.726) It was, and it was. Daniel (01:10:41.053) this episode. Everyone, you and I both need to close our eyes and then they're trade and raise their hand. Kevin (01:10:46.958) Okay. Yeah, that's good. Daniel (01:10:53.309) All right. We'll never know. All right. So Kevin, was great hanging out with you and listeners. Great hanging out with you. Thanks again so much for spending time with us. hope you have a wonderful day. Kevin (01:10:56.056) That's a good one, that's good. Same here. Yeah, contact us, social media at PlaySavesTheWorld and BoardGameFaith, our old moniker, and info at BoardGameFaith.com. yeah, have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your day. Daniel (01:11:17.671) Bye bye.