Daniel (00:05.88) PlaySavesTheWorld, episode 7. Book vibes. It's all the game. Daniel (00:31.118) Hello and welcome everybody to Play Saves the World, the ongoing conversation about the meaning of play for human flourishing. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:42.156) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (00:44.715) And we are so grateful that you have decided to join our podcast today. Thank you so much for listening and clicking the button and being a part of our conversation. It's great to have you here. And Kevin is, we don't know you, but we love you. That's a good motto. I like that. I like that. We should, we should get t-shirts on that. Kevin, how are you? It's good to see you. Kevin (00:58.681) Know you, but we love you. Kevin (01:05.06) You like that? Kevin (01:17.626) think we're getting some lag here. You okay? Daniel (01:19.444) I think so. Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't hear your response. But we seem to be live now. Okay. All right. Are you doing okay? All's good in your life, in your world. Good. Good. I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. Yeah. Dealing with a little lag. We got some dogs back here in Missouri, anyway. Yeah. So today we are... Kevin (01:24.27) Just keep going, it's fine. Glitch. Yeah, yeah, I'm good, Daniel. Thanks. How are you? Excellent, excellent. Daniel (01:48.049) talking about a book. This is, I think, our first book vibes, book club episode since we've rebranded to... That's right, Play Saves the World, as demonstrated by Kevin. For those of you who are watching on video, we're talking about a book called It's All a Game. It's All a Game by an author named Tristan Donovan. Tristan Donovan, published in 2017 by Thomas Dunn. Kevin (02:06.156) It's all a game. Kevin (02:12.634) Mm-hmm. Daniel (02:17.988) books and kind of a Kevin, how would you describe this book? Kevin (02:23.738) would describe it as kind of a history of board games. And it's historical, but it's quick, it's light, it's not real heavy or footnote. There's no footnotes exactly. There are no footnotes. There's I think some end notes maybe. Yeah, but you know it trips along pretty quickly. It's interesting. You get to learn some great stories, great bits, and each chapter is basically about an important. Daniel (02:38.042) Maybe some endotes, yeah? Kevin (02:50.499) game in the history of modern gaming. Does that sound right? Daniel (02:55.974) That sounds right. Yeah, yeah. And it's not every chapter is kind of its own kind of self-contained unit taking a look at a history of a particular game. Kevin (03:04.365) Yeah, you can read it just individually. Daniel (03:06.918) Yeah, yeah. Some nice little, obviously a lot of research went into the book. It did a lot of primary research. that struck me in reading it, that he interviewed various folks and went to the source in a lot of instances. So yeah, interesting read, a lot of interesting anecdotes in it. Kevin (03:11.662) Mm-hmm. Kevin (03:22.68) Mm-hmm. Kevin (03:33.881) Absolutely, absolutely, highly recommended. Daniel (03:38.287) So, you know, he starts off by, talking a little bit about kind of the, the, the ancient history of, of games. and, no. Can you all hear Kevin? Can you hear this? What's going on? Our dogs are fighting. Yeah. In the background. I'm sorry. Dog play. It's, it's, it's all a game. Kevin (04:00.707) Yes, there's a dog fight. Dog play. Daniel (04:09.053) for dogs and they're fighting. maybe I'll take them out of the studio. I'm sorry, just a moment. Kevin (04:11.865) Nice. Kevin (04:16.462) Yes. Daniel (04:31.294) Fun fact, the dogs are often in the studio when I record and have always been quiet heretofore, but decided to fight today. So, sorry. To rattle, to rattle. I have a friend who called, calls them like, what'd call? Like the zips? The dogs get the zips? Kevin (04:40.674) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (04:45.558) Wrestle. Rassle. Daniel (04:59.182) What do they, when they just kind of, when they decide to battle each other. Kevin (05:04.76) I don't know. Daniel (05:05.681) No, okay, don't know a term for that. Kevin (05:07.129) I don't get that. I think of zip lines or zip ties. I think of zip codes. I think of being zippy, but I don't... I think of zipper, but I don't think of dogs sort of wrestling. Daniel (05:14.036) Maybe it could be zippy. Yeah. No, this is also why Kevin and I have to record many states away because when we're in the same room, we also spontaneously start wrestling too. it's, and it ruins the episode. that's right. That's right. So in the, so early on in the book, talks about, you know, some of, some of the more ancient history of, of games. Kevin (05:30.023) That's right. And then Kristen makes us leave. That's right. Daniel (05:45.43) And this is something we've talked about before, Kevin, you and I, the earlier iteration of this podcast. It's more focused specifically on board games. But this idea really, the board games and getting people to gather around a flat surface to play together really has been around in some form since the dawn of civilization, that games are an essential part of human history. Kevin (06:11.352) That's right. That's right. Yeah, the ancient world shows games and knowledge and love of games insofar as artifacts have survived. And even some games that we don't know how to play because they didn't really have paper and they didn't have rule books. Or if they did, they are gone. But I doubt they ever had them. It was probably more oral culture, people teaching each other. So we have the boards and the games, but we don't know how they are played, which is very cool. Daniel (06:28.98) Right. They're gone. Daniel (06:40.491) Right, right. And then there are some ancient games that are still around today. Things like backgammon, chess, parcheese, mancala. And yeah, and so when you play them, you're kind of really experiencing something that in some form has been around a very long time. Are you familiar with any or all of those ancient games, Kevin, any that are a regular part of your life today? No. Kevin (06:41.217) very authentic. Kevin (06:45.026) Yes. Kevin (06:48.62) Mm-hmm. Kevin (07:07.112) No. I mean, I have played backgammon in chess and my kids have played mancala song, but I actually never learned it. So, yeah. How about you? Daniel (07:19.128) I think I've played all four of the ones that we mentioned. I guess there are others as well. Backgammon probably the most. Actually, we have, my wife and I have kind of come to enjoy a two-player, a phone app of two-player games. that whenever we go out to a restaurant, now that we're empty nesters, we're just the two of us, and we'll put my phone in the middle of the table and play this library of two player games that you can play on your phone as you're waiting for the food to come. And it recently has added Parcheese, which I think it calls Ludo, and Moncala. And so we've rediscovered those two games through the phone app. Anyway, yeah, so. Kevin (07:49.237) Mm-hmm. Kevin (07:56.705) Wow. Kevin (08:06.231) Hmm. Kevin (08:13.047) Hmm. That's cool. That's cool. Yes. But what we're interested in is modern board games, primarily that, with the exception of what you just said of a ancient game on a modern piece of technology known as a Pahoni, a Cell Pahoni, or some countries call Mobile Pahoni. Mobile Pahoni. Daniel (08:15.096) It's kind of fun. Daniel (08:22.325) Yeah, right. Daniel (08:34.092) That's Salpahoni. That's right. That's right. Mobile Pahone. That's right. That's right. That's right. I'm in awe of your polyglotism there. That's great. That's fantastic. Kevin (08:42.911) Yeah, that. I know, yeah. Kevin (08:53.072) I think it's pronounced polyglotism. I think it's a more authentic pronunciation. But yeah, one of the things that we noticed with this book is that culture really shapes how we play. That these games reflect our cultural interests and prejudices. yeah, yeah, of course they are product of culture, which isn't a surprise because our books, I mean, obviously... Daniel (08:58.52) Yeah, good. Daniel (09:12.62) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (09:20.555) Victorian books are all about Victorian society and we like reading them, but they don't reflect our society today. We're you know, spending an entire book wondering who Lady Lancelot's gonna marry or something like that, right? So, it's not a Stephen King plot as far as I know. But yeah, he mentions some really important games that reflect some, yeah, cultural times. What were some of those that struck you? Daniel (09:34.649) Right. Right. Daniel (09:47.759) Yeah, yeah, I, this seemed especially a salient point for him in the chapter about the game of life, much beloved, very popular game, the game of life, been around a long time. It's chapter four in the book. And I, by way of segue, last week in our last episode, our guest, Dr. Rachel, cohort, you know, she talked about going out to buy the game of life for her to play with her child and discovering that it had changed a lot. And as it turns out, this is something that has been true throughout the history of the game of life that and he, the author Tristan Donovan really kind of details this in chapter four, but the game of life in particular has changed. Kevin (10:30.517) Hmm. Daniel (10:43.226) much over its history to reflect the cultural norms and expectations of American society. He also goes into the origins of it, the sources of the game of life, which I thought was interesting that, you know, there was this game called the Mansion of Happiness originally, which was meant to teach virtue to children. And Kevin (11:05.289) Mm-hmm. Daniel (11:14.118) I don't know if I should say by all accounts, but at least by the accounts that I've read, it doesn't seem like it was terribly fun by modern standards, but much more interested in being didactic about. Kevin (11:21.749) No. No. Kevin (11:26.262) Unfortunately that was my great great great grandfather who invented that so thank you Daniel for disliking. I'm just kidding. yeah I know. Dear old peg-legged tailor. Daniel (11:30.631) no, Kevin, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I feel so bad now. Kevin (11:40.448) came back from the Civil War, made a game, and Daniel doesn't like it. Daniel (11:43.741) I'm sorry, I need to tame my tongue. But I guess so then this gentleman named Milton Bradley, like there was an actual gentleman named Milton Bradley. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:46.069) It's okay. Yeah, yes. Kevin (11:58.688) Which makes sense. Just why else would you name a company that strange name? Daniel (12:04.381) No, I always assumed it was like maybe like the name of the two primary investors like Mrs. Milton and Mr. Bradley or somebody something like that. but no, there was a person named Milton Bradley. Who did you catch this was Methodist? Yeah, yeah. Which happens to be a tradition that Kevin and I are familiar with anyway. So he decided he was going to make something like this. Kevin (12:09.779) Right. Kevin (12:14.889) Right, right. Kevin (12:21.001) Yes. Crazy. Kevin (12:30.494) Yes. Daniel (12:34.182) Mansion of Happiness to teach virtue to children, maybe like the Sunday School Hour. He made the Checkered Game of Life, which was the name of his take on it. And eventually, through the history of the Milton and Bradley Company, later redesign became the Game of Life as we know it, with the little pegs in the cars, pink pegs, blue pegs. deciding to go into career right away or going to college and how the evolution of that game over the years really has reflected changing culture, including, did you catch this, that in the early games there was a uranium spot? Like you could strike it rich with uranium? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so at one point thinking, you Kevin (13:12.948) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:22.088) No, I missed that bit. my gosh. That's too funny. Daniel (13:30.877) I guess there was some time in American history where the dream was to strike it rich with uranium. I guess this might've been before your grandfather who, or after your grandfather who invented the mansion of happiness. It was after, okay, okay. Kevin (13:39.091) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:48.98) It was after, it was after. Yes, he did have a uranium peg leg, which was ultimately not a good idea, but it was experimental. Tragic, yes, tragic tale. We don't talk about it much. Yeah, know culture obviously shapes games and, you know, it's so interesting to think about the different games that have reflected, say, colonialism or monopoly and the... Daniel (13:58.458) Hmm tragic tragic tragic tale Kevin (14:17.896) the questions around capitalism and market forces, because Monopoly was originally one part of a two-part game that was questioning the role of real estate and capitalism in creating poor people, or creating poverty, I should say, that is partly the condition of the poor. So, yeah, we see culture shaping that. The book also, and the book tells that story of... Daniel (14:31.174) Right. Right. Daniel (14:43.432) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (14:43.802) of Monopoly. also tells the story towards the end, very interesting about the game Pandemic, which originally was a response to the bird flu, the avian bird flu. And that was what inspired that guy to make the game. But of course we would associate it with the recent, you know, COVID pandemic, but lots of similar stuff. If you played the game, you know, reminding you of CDC and traveling around and hotspots and outbreaks and Daniel (14:49.894) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (14:55.452) Mmm. Kevin (15:11.934) those sorts of themes were things that Matt Leacock had imagined that the bird flu could have done. And that's something that people 100 years ago would not have imagined, either a global pandemic fueled by global travel or a global team of folks trying to research and end a pandemic. yeah, and although the game pandemic actually ends with cures and we didn't get Daniel (15:29.0) Right, right. Daniel (15:34.384) Right, right, right. Kevin (15:40.116) cures so much as vaccines that mitigate the disease and also the disease evolved to where it's now not nearly as fatal or rarely fatal, I'd almost say. But yeah, but still like that's a cultural phenomenon that would have made no sense 100 years ago to make a game about a global pandemic. They obviously had plagues and things, but I guess more than 100 years ago they had Spanish flu and the people were traveling so that it was getting around. So maybe going back 150 years or whatever. Daniel (15:56.39) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (16:09.351) Pick a number, Daniel. But yeah, culture influences things. Daniel (16:11.038) 100 in. Daniel (16:15.934) 47. Kevin (16:16.977) Yeah, that would be perfect. Perfect. Well done. Thank you, caller. Yeah, and it also reflects the idea that science can research and there's optimism there that given enough time we can find something that will help. So yeah, that would have been unthinkable 200 years ago. Daniel (16:29.49) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Right, right. It makes me wonder, there games that do not reflect? the culture out of which they come that are not shaped by culture. And I guess my first go to like abstract games, like checkers or things like that. Kevin (16:49.415) Yeah, maybe an abstract game or a mathematical game. In some ways chess is, I guess it is coming out of war and you've got some elements of it, but and there's some reasons why you have a bishop, they're either called what they're called, but it's, you don't need to know why it's called a bishop to just learn how it moves. So I guess Daniel (17:15.079) Right. Kevin (17:16.063) I guess I'd say everything comes out of a culture, but it may be really thin, the layer of culture. But yeah, an abstract game might be... I'm trying to think of... Daniel (17:20.709) Mm-hmm. Kevin (17:28.061) What's the tile laying game where you're building like a tapestry for the Azul? Yeah, but even that's got a theme of like a decorating a mosque or something or something Arabic. But if you didn't know that, it wouldn't matter, would it? Portugal, yeah. Daniel (17:32.926) As you will. Daniel (17:37.446) Right. Right, right, right. Or in Portugal, I think it was maybe. Yeah, yeah. It strikes me, it reminds me of something he discusses in a different chapter on the chapter on Euro games, which we'll get to in a little bit. you know, how after World War II, many of the modern hobby board games, the first modern hobby board games coming out of Germany, you know, were very... Daniel (18:14.632) were much less anti-player elimination, right? Kind of anti-war, which was a reflection of what was going on culturally, right? Whereas many of the games before that point would be about, I'm going to destroy my opponent. The games after World War II, especially Command of Germany, much less so, much less, more about who can use limited resources most efficiently, which I think that'd be a cultural reflection. Kevin (18:19.783) Right. Kevin (18:25.095) Yeah, absolutely. Kevin (18:44.675) Absolutely. No, you're definitely right. The appetite for elimination was reduced after the horrors of the world war. yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And also even D &D is reflection of Tolkien, that it's really a Tolkien reskin of war gaming. Interestingly enough, it's where D &D evolves, but it's, it's, that's why it has the creatures it has is they like Tolkien. So without Tolkien's cultural influence, there was no D &D. would have just been... Daniel (18:53.468) Yeah. Daniel (19:02.514) Hmm Daniel (19:10.171) Interesting, interesting. Kevin (19:14.589) They were really making recreation of war battling. was war gaming. Yeah. So yeah, that's a great chapter. Yeah, that's really interesting. Started war planning, I think out of Prussia, where some of the Prussian military's the first to use games for modeling battles. And then it developed into a hobby in England, and famously H.G. Wells wrote a book about it. But it used to be the gaming would take up a whole room with Daniel (19:19.536) Interesting, huh? Daniel (19:23.816) Well that brings us Daniel (19:34.993) Okay, okay. Kevin (19:44.275) kind of these two inch or I think that's 16 millimeters figurines. Could be a kilometer. Daniel (19:51.81) I think we're talking, yeah, kilometers there. Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. I think that's very accurate. Yeah. Kevin (19:57.907) kilometer maybe a kilometer to size which is roughly like two inches I think something like that it's roughly it's base 10 I think is what they say so yeah exactly but they'd have these little figures and they would have basically it was it was these models and you would have a referee to referee the the war game and this was for fun this was no longer generals doing it as the Daniel (20:18.599) Interesting. Kevin (20:23.315) were, these were simply hobbyists. so H.G. Wells wrote a book of how to do it. But that referee that would referee it for that day or a couple days and decide, okay, this can instruct these guys. And they were recreating Napoleon's battles and those sorts of things. Eventually that descended into tabletop war gaming. And then somebody said, hey, why don't we reskin this with Tolkien characters? Daniel (20:28.765) Hmm. Daniel (20:41.638) Mm-hmm. Kevin (20:52.069) And at that point, the referee had become a master of the game, and that's how we got a dungeon master. The idea of a guy, someone who's running the game. Daniel (20:57.596) interesting, interesting. Kevin (21:01.785) So yeah, it all came out of war gaming and Tolkien really Even though now you don't see well you see some of the Tolkien but less so now and it because it's become its own mythology I think D &D, but you definitely don't see the war gaming and It's not adversarial so much Daniel (21:05.224) So that's a. Daniel (21:14.11) powerful. Yeah. Daniel (21:20.348) powerful examples of culture creating game or influencing play. Kevin (21:22.483) culture, Kevin (21:26.747) randomness of history, yeah. It's amazing. Daniel (21:28.636) Yeah, that's interesting. are there example, I've been trying to think of other examples of the opposite direction of play influencing culture. Kevin (21:37.011) Hmm. Well, the war gaming did influence battles and military strategy. Daniel (21:44.454) Right. Right. Kevin (21:48.347) in fact There was a recent video and I'll put a link to this from the people make games folks that were big fans of on YouTube and that was about I think England has a center for gaming to help with military strategy Yeah, like they're actively trying to recruit folks to either around cyber security other things because if you can think like a game Then you can solve Daniel (21:56.828) Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:07.228) Really? Interesting. Kevin (22:16.359) real problems. So I don't know, do you think of things? Daniel (22:17.605) Okay. Daniel (22:23.507) You know, I think I don't know. I'm trying to think. I if as we think of play broadly, you know, beyond just games, but things like music or art or, you know, cinema. I mean, I, I, I guess I would say. Kevin (22:30.871) Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:45.298) that play influences culture then to a great extent. know, as we're recording this right now, the Taylor Swift heiress tour is huge, it's massive. kind of what people around the world are talking about. that's, you know, music is in the realm of play and that certainly seems to be a cultural phenomenon that's shaping us. I'm trying to think kind of Kevin (23:10.095) Hmm. Kevin (23:14.169) changing economies, yeah. Daniel (23:15.774) broader question, yeah, like, you know, does it shape the way a culture, I'm trying to think of way of, an example of play shaping the way a culture thinks or acts or relates to each other, you know, relates, Kevin (23:26.841) Right. Daniel (23:28.765) I don't know. Kevin (23:29.721) Yeah, well, I do think of D &D influencing culture. We've got a movie, the D &D movie, which is really good. I thoroughly enjoyed that. so the idea of roleplay has become, we've gone from games to cultural. Yeah, we've got a Clue type movie with the glass onion. So that's become a staple of the genre of a whodunit. And I guess that probably predates Clue, to be honest. I don't know. They probably mutually fed each other, but... Daniel (23:37.202) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (23:47.658) Right. Right. Kevin (23:57.219) The stock characters I think are very clue-like, so yeah. Daniel (24:01.449) Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a, a, a stellar segue to another chapter and takeaway from this book. I know you're so good. You're so good, Kevin. Yeah. This is like a pro. It's like speaking of Taylor Swift. It's like, it's like I'm singing a little campfire song. Kevin (24:08.047) oop That's just how I planned it. Daniel (24:29.845) with my little ukulele and then in walks Taylor Swift. That's how you are with segues. You're a segway. You're the Taylor Swift segues. Anyway. Kevin (24:35.151) That's me. Kevin (24:39.833) Da da da da da da da da da da da da Daniel (24:44.075) It's very good. I don't know a Taylor Swift song, I'm afraid. No, no, yeah. Kevin (24:45.177) Thank you. That's my Taylor Swift. You don't? She's great. She's very listenable. I mean, I don't just put it on and I can't tell you what they're about, but I always enjoy listening to it. So I think she's super talented and she's smart business person too. So yeah, hats off. Daniel (24:58.217) Yes, do. do. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's phenomenal what she has done. Yeah, it's it's. Kevin (25:06.196) My teenage boys like to hate on her because all the teenage girls love her so much. I'm like, dude, don't let your gender prejudice at that age obscure the fact that Taylor Swift is amazing. Daniel (25:16.939) She is, yes, agreed, agreed. But yeah, you mentioned Clue. There's another chapter devoted to Clue in this book, chapter eight, or Cluedo, as it is called outside of the United States. And I think one takeaway from that chapter is that a play can help us to manage our fears. Kevin (25:22.696) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:29.966) Right? Daniel (25:46.067) of in a couple ways, I think is Clu or Cluedo an example of that. For one thing, talks about how Cluedo Clue was born during World War II, during the the bombing of the bombing runs of Nazi bombers during World War II over the United Kingdom. There is this gentleman named Anthony Pratt, who had poor eyesight, was not able to serve, and decided to, during this kind of very bleak time, desperate time in the UK, to maybe try to address some of that, bring a little bit of distraction or happiness by creating a board game. Kevin (26:38.392) Mm-hmm. Such a great story. Daniel (26:42.187) Yeah, yeah, and so kind of kind of up with Cluedo Clue. And so, you know, that's one respect in which play helps to manage fears or difficult times. By the way, sidebar, that is also the story of how crossword puzzles came to The New York Times. Have you heard this story as well? Yeah, famously. Kevin (27:04.239) No. Daniel (27:09.995) The New York Times ran an op-ed or an editorial piece during the height of the initial height of crossword popularity. This is before World War II, they said the New York Times will never, I'm paraphrasing, but that the New York Times will never run a crossword, will never have a crossword because I think it was described as sinful and a waste of time. And a serious person wouldn't do this and a serious newspaper wouldn't run it. Then, then during World War II, I forget her name now, but a woman who was the crossword editor for another newspaper. Kevin (27:41.039) Nice. Daniel (28:04.546) wrote a note to one of the editors of the New York Times and said, surely you will concede now, and again, I'm paraphrasing, that there is some value in crosswords, that during this time when things are so bleak and so desperate in the world, what could be a greater service than this kind of little bit of daily distraction or joy that you can bring to people's lives? And she convinced them and they hired her. And she was the New York Times first crossword editor and remained in that position for a number of years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:38.061) now a gold standard of crossword puzzles as well as the New York Times pushes their whole game section a lot with wordle and things. So boy is that ironic that they were such snobs. Yeah. It also reminds me of the opening of the book that I'm forgetting that's about gaming. Reality is Broken. She starts with an ancient story of Daniel (28:45.728) Yeah. It's core to who they are now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (29:03.317) Kevin (29:06.4) from ancient Greece, but I forget which people it was, but there's a story of a people in ancient Greece that to survive a famine, they'd eat one day and then play a game the other day. Daniel (29:09.317) Yeah. Daniel (29:16.12) Yes, was this the kingdom of Lydia? I think it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (29:18.063) It was the Kingdom of Lydia. That's it. The Kingdom of Lydia. And of course, this is sort of a, could be a tall tale. We don't know, but it's an ancient story preserved that, yeah, they use games to distract them during difficult times. And that's great use of a game. Yeah. And I love that for the Brits in World War II, they were afraid they would die from the bombing or people they loved, they would die. So let's play a game where people die. Daniel (29:25.722) Sure, sure. Daniel (29:31.994) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (29:41.392) Yes. Yep, yep. Kevin (29:47.439) But in a safe way, which is this murder mystery thing, it's not from bombs. So gives you a way to do your fears, but indirectly. Daniel (29:47.886) Right. Daniel (29:52.324) Yeah. Daniel (29:56.26) Yeah, yeah, poking, poking at the fears. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (29:59.641) poking at the fears in a safe way. Yeah. As well as you mentioned, yeah, you mentioned, back to the cultural bit, it's a very British thing to have these set murder mysteries. I mean, we tell them too, but I guess mostly because of Sherlock Holmes and the British influence of the glass onion type stories. Who done it? Agatha Christie type thing. Yeah. Sorry, what were you going to say? Daniel (30:02.744) And the fact that it's. Go ahead. Daniel (30:19.056) Right, right. Yes, yes. No, no, I was just agreeing with you. Yeah, that ever since it was popularized by Arthur Conan Doyle and Sherlock Holmes stories in Victorian England, there's been this, I don't think, I hope it's not overgeneralizing or stereotyping to say, a fascination or a a high degree of popularity around murder mysteries, crime drama, especially in the United Kingdom. It's kind of. Kevin (30:53.667) Yeah, you're right. The TV shows are still, I mean we do them well as well, but they have a, yeah, they've been doing it for decades. And they're great. They're great. Daniel (31:00.898) Yeah, yeah. And born during this Victorian era, you know, where things were very restrained and prim and proper. And, but yet if you could, if you could kind of poke at the seedy underside of society, it seems like kind of a very proper Victorian thing to do. And it's a way again, of kind of poking at our fears of our mortality or the seedy underside of the world in which we live. Kevin (31:09.346) Mm-hmm. Kevin (31:15.832) Right. Kevin (31:28.537) That's right. That's right. So good. So cool. So yeah, play is often helping us manage our fears and it might be through humor or distraction or social anxiety. I mean, what a great way to break the ice with strangers is to play a game and get people engaged. So yeah, it overcomes all sorts of fears. Daniel (31:44.314) Yeah. Daniel (31:48.304) I think about that also with your saying with pandemic, right? mean, that was a way of kind of poking at a fear that has become, that did become very much a reality for us, you know, for the world. Kevin (32:04.815) Yeah, we were playing Pandemic Season Zero, one of the legacy versions of the game, during the pandemic outside. And I know that because of a photo of us sitting outside, the family, in gloves and hats, because we were still, you know, we weren't, we didn't know if we were, this was before the vaccine. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't give us the creeps at all. We were like, okay. Daniel (32:13.092) Yeah. Nice. Nice. Daniel (32:22.692) Yeah, sure. Daniel (32:27.236) Right, right, yeah, yeah. That'll be a... Kevin (32:33.125) during a pandemic let's play this game because again a game is i mean that's the beautiful thing about a silly game is it's just a game like you put it in a box and put on a shelf it's not a threat there's no way a game can harm you i guess unless the material i can take that back the material could be traumatizing but in general the material is is assuming it's not something that's and there are some games that explore adult themes but in general a game is a safe thing because it goes in a box and Daniel (32:33.304) right. Daniel (32:45.23) Right, right. Daniel (32:59.408) Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (33:03.613) that's not a real threat for an adult. Yeah. Daniel (33:06.084) Yeah. It also gets me thinking about, you know, there's a lot of games and other media around post-apocalyptic, the post-apocalyptic genre, right? And this idea of, that's also kind of, you know, poking at the... Kevin (33:21.514) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:28.482) at the world's end, right? The great cataclysm that's going to kind of end it all. And there are board games also. Yeah, yeah. Also board games about ways of generating sustainable energy, right? And I think Matt, you mentioned Matt Leacock did the peak, did Pandemic. Kevin (33:30.451) Right. Kevin (33:37.362) Right, a Mad Max type thing. Kevin (33:50.42) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:57.144) I believe his most recent game that's very popular right now is all about kind of creating a sustainable model for society. Yeah, I forgot the name of it. Daybreak. Kevin (34:01.918) Yeah, I'd like to play that. Daybreak? Something like that. Yeah. I think it's Daybreak. something like that. Yeah, he's a great designer. see cool stuff. So, all right. Well, our third takeaway from this book, It's All a Game, and these are just highlights. There's so much more in this book. So there's a lot of great bits. It's a, it's really a collection of a series of essays. So these are just a few glimpses of things that we liked, but not, you know, not necessarily the only or even, yes, definitely not the only major themes of the book, but there's a lot. Daniel (34:15.983) Yeah. Daniel (34:38.659) Right. Kevin (34:40.426) But you highlighted, Daniel, that there's a lovely concept towards the end of the book that what is celebrated grows. Yeah, and so unpack that a little. How does what we recognize end up being something that flourishes? Daniel (34:48.292) Right, right, yeah. Thanks. Daniel (34:55.844) Yeah, yeah. Well, he, this is in chapter 16. and it's, it's, it's a chapter in part about Catan, right? About what used to be called settlers of Catan, but, arguably, maybe not arguably, one of the small handful of games that really are found foundational for the modern hobby game world. yeah, you we're talking about like, Catan, Carcassonne, Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, know, and if there's more than those, I don't think it would be, risk. Kevin (35:33.577) Yeah, I would include risk. I mean, I don't know if that's exactly modern. I guess they're older. I guess you're right that when we think of post 80s, but 20th century, you know, we would include risk and Clue and monopoly those sorts of things but Daniel (35:49.38) Yeah. For our non board game fan listeners, within the board game world, it's not uncommon to speak of the age in which we are living as the golden age of board gaming. And I think that's also hard to argue with. just really very good, high quality, engaging, well thought out games coming out all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (36:12.433) No, yeah. Innovative games continue to be published even this year. So yeah, it's not over yet. Daniel (36:19.982) Yeah, and the reason, I think part of the argument that Tristan Donovan makes, or at least implies in this chapter in Catan is one reason we are living in such a time of such high quality games is because of this award called the Spiel des Joris. which is German simply for, you know, for game of the year. That Germany was the center, or at least a center for many of these modern hobby board games. Carcassonne, Catan, both come out of Germany. For example. Kevin (37:10.707) Right. And as you said earlier, what's distinctive and why we call them Euro games because they're coming out of Europe is they tend to feature less luck. They tend to feature neutral topics such as, you know, building a farm or something like that. Although Catan is about settling an island or series of islands, so that's maybe less neutral. But it also tends to not have a lot of Daniel (37:28.623) Right. Kevin (37:41.628) Well, there's just there's no player elimination and there's not much direct conflict. So you end up having to Slow down or do things that thwart your neighbor, but you can't actually take out their hit points directly or anything like that. Yeah And they often little meeples and that's where that name comes from little wooden things of people or something or sheep Daniel (37:55.342) That's right. That's right. Yeah. And it. Right. Daniel (38:04.24) And there's a way to generally to keep players engaged to the end of the game, you know, not only because there's no player elimination, but also it's just a well thought out design, you know, whereas like, you know, Monopoly, might be, you may not be eliminated till the end of the game, but you know, half an hour into the game that you're, you're, just checked out, you know, there's no way you're going to win. And, but yes. Kevin (38:09.19) Right. Kevin (38:25.254) Right, Yeah. Yeah, so Euros usually win by victory points almost inevitably. So that's a joke in our family, like, the win condition for this game is, wait for it, victory points. And they're like, shocker, points. Because if you're not eliminating people, then the winner is determined by points. Yeah. Daniel (38:32.175) right. Daniel (38:37.272) Victory point. Daniel (38:44.72) Yeah, yeah. There's so many board game instructional videos online that end with, and the player with the most points is the winner of the game at the end of the game. Yeah. But so I think part of the argument that is implied in here that we see elsewhere is that, you know, so Catan won this award, the Shvildes Yaros. This was Kevin (38:57.019) Yes. Daniel (39:12.524) an award and I failed to write down the year which it started. I'm sorry, but but but late night, know late 20th century some mid around the 70s 70s or 80s this this award Spieldis Iaris was created to recognize excellence in board gaming, right? And and it has grown and grown and grown the Spieldis Iaris it is Kevin (39:32.859) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:41.666) one of the biggest events, maybe the biggest event in board gaming every year in the world happens in Essen, Germany every year. Kevin (39:52.303) which started in a college dorm, I think the book says. Or college setting, yeah. The convention originally started with college kids. Daniel (39:55.236) Did it start in a college dorm? I missed that. Cool. Nice, nice, nice. Nice. cool. When I, and you know, I think the argument goes that the reason we are living in, in a time of such high quality games is because we, we have this award for it, right? We recognize it. And what we celebrate, we celebrate good games today. We, we shine a light on them. We recognize them and what we celebrate grows, right? And what, what we pay attention to grows, which is, Yeah, you know, a good philosophy in many things in life, know, that's a spiritual principle as well, know, that what we, Buddhism talks about the seeds that we shine a light on grows. Jesus talks about, you know, the seeds that we make sure have good soil grows, right? And the seeds that have bad soil don't, right? Kevin (40:35.825) Yeah. Kevin (40:57.713) Right. Daniel (41:00.156) what we pay attention to, what we water, what we shine a light on, what we nourish grows. And I think that's nice principle to take from that. Yeah, go ahead. Kevin (41:04.123) Yeah. Yeah, let me... No, it is. I'm a bullet journal guy and sort of the classic method. There's lots of varieties or home brews for a bullet journal system. But what's recommended by its creator, Ryder Carroll, one of the nice bits is you're jotting down thoughts, appointments, and to-do lists for the day, which is a nice way of... keeping track of what you need to do, but also just remembering when you look in the future, when you look back. And especially when you see what you were worried about and those things maybe dissolved. So it gives you a nice perspective. One of the nice bits he does too is for that day, you should give that day a title, like the most important thing that happened that day. And then you have a page for your month and for each day you transcribe that title. And so you can look at this page of the title for every day of the month. Daniel (41:40.105) Hmm. Daniel (41:48.993) Interesting. Interesting. Kevin (42:01.014) And then you can get a feel for the whole month, wow, I was really depressed this month, or wow, I had a lot of good moments at work, or I seem to really enjoy hanging out with the friends at the pub. So maybe I should do more of that, or maybe I'm doing too much of it. You can draw conclusions, but the point is to kind of celebrate maybe... Daniel (42:01.259) Wow. Daniel (42:16.481) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (42:27.312) For good or for ill, you might recognize a problem such as I'm too stressed or something, but what you celebrate gives you a chance to grow or prune or adapt. You just learn something about yourself because golly, I can't remember two months ago, you know, or even think back to the beginning of this month. It gets hazy. The old human brain is a strange critter. And so quickly, so quickly we get anxious about the past and the future, but then we can't really remember it very well. Daniel (42:37.889) Yeah. No. Kevin (42:57.35) Right So you obsess over something you said to someone five years ago, but you can't remember the larger theme of the year So yeah, I really enjoy that if anyone yeah and just go on YouTube and look up bullet journal writer Carol and You can use any notebook for it, but it's a really nice Yeah, it's a very odd name Ry der First name the Latin it's a it's a man last name Carol ca RR OLL Daniel (42:59.627) That's so true. Daniel (43:06.239) Right, right. Daniel (43:14.51) How is that spelled? His name? Or Ryder? What's... Daniel (43:27.713) Okay. Thanks. Thanks. Kevin (43:28.451) It's bullet journaling or bujo. It's made as a shortcut and he's got some books and things. But the nice bit too is you can use any piece of paper you want. They sell their own notebook but you don't have to use it. You just need paper. Yeah. Uh-huh. Daniel (43:31.916) Okay. Daniel (43:41.987) Okay. That's so cool. May I ask, not to put you on the spot, what are some examples of some, is there any surprise that you have learned or discovered or patterns that you have found interesting in doing a bullet journal? Kevin (43:56.405) Ooh, that's a good one. You know one that I really was interested to learn is you and I are both obsessed with board games and I really got into solo board gaming for a bit, but I realized with the bullet journal that I wasn't enjoying it because it was making me feel lonely. Like I didn't have enough social activity in my life and then I'd get a solo game and I would want to play it, but while that was rewarding, I needed to be socializing. Daniel (44:03.489) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:13.666) Mm. Daniel (44:23.766) Okay, okay. Kevin (44:24.611) Right. And so I could look back and I could see, the things I titled the day was not always playing this new solo game or replaying a solo version of a game, it was having lunch with somebody or do going to trivia night at the brewery here, which we got second place last time. So yeah, I'm like, you know, solo gaming is cool and I love games, but I don't love them enough to, to play them till I'm miserable. Daniel (44:38.807) Right, right, right. Nice, Congratulations, that's awesome. Daniel (44:52.751) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (44:52.878) But there's something in me that, I know I shouldn't say miserable, but I just realized this isn't working how I thought it was. But solo games are cool and they work for a lot of people and I love to check it out and it's a nice thing, but I'd really rather, I'd almost rather not play a game than play a solo game if it's gonna make me feel like, ugh, so. Daniel (44:58.467) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. Daniel (45:11.423) Mm, mm. I could see. Kevin (45:13.188) Because I like the banter, like the energy and I like, yeah, it's hard to table talk. Daniel (45:16.773) Right. I could see how a bullet journal would really help you to get a sense of... It's doing what we're talking about. It's shining a light on the things that are important to you. Kevin (45:23.405) Yeah. Kevin (45:27.082) Shining a light and we don't know we're not always honest with ourselves or we forget for whatever reason so yeah looking back and like huh This is not I'm not celebrating actually what I thought it was Daniel (45:31.907) Yeah. Daniel (45:39.237) I'm going to look that up. Thanks for recommending that. Kevin (45:41.858) Yeah, really, yeah, it's actually, you know, it's not for everyone, but I find it immensely valuable. Yeah. Daniel (45:48.242) That's so cool. Thanks for sharing. That's cool. Well, speaking of board games, well, I guess we should say so. that is It's All a Game by Tristan Donovan. That's our take on it. Kevin, was wondering, just because we're talking about a book about board games, maybe we could end by just talking about a couple games. Kevin (46:01.988) Mm-hmm. Daniel (46:17.713) we're playing right now, that what are we playing now? What are we interested in? But before we do that, is there anything else you wanted to say about it's all a game before we wrap up that discussion? Okay. Yes. Yes. Check out the book. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I thought you were talking about Tristan Donovan was being awesome. I don't deserve such praise. Thank you. Thank you. Kevin (46:20.356) Kevin (46:25.474) No, no, except for you're awesome. No, I'm done. That was the last page. P.S. P.S. Daniel is awesome. That was... No, I'm talking about you. Tristan Dunham mentions you. You didn't read that page? Kevin (46:44.546) Tristan thinks so, Daniel. Tristan thinks so. Daniel (46:46.375) I'm writing your coattails. Kevin (46:52.664) had a great game of Trio, which is a game you turn me on to a really light rules card game, but really hard and just hilarious and funny because it's like this weird go fish memory game. Like you're trying to find three sets of three cards and you're not going to remember where you saw them and it just, and you know what someone's looking for. And that was just great. I really enjoyed that. And I finally got to play Daniel (46:57.637) Nice. Daniel (47:19.591) That's great. Kevin (47:21.592) the campaign version of ARKS twice. And that is really interesting. It's a just very touted game of the year and the campaign version, you play these characters and it just gets weirder and weirder and you can change characters. It's like your guy has a different story arc. So you start out as the warmonger and then you become the pacifist. But however you got Daniel (47:25.831) Nice. Nice, nice. Yeah. Kevin (47:49.293) however far you got in the first part of the first character stays around. So it alters the common deck, but your own deck. And so you end up with hybrid characters that are really interesting. And there's like 20 some characters. Yeah. Daniel (47:54.301) Okay, okay. Daniel (47:58.642) Okay. Daniel (48:02.784) That sounds so good. Kevin (48:06.635) It's good. It's hard. It's weird. You probably wouldn't like it because it's mean. Like you do end up having to attack and steal things from people. And I know that's not something you enjoy. Maybe with me where I'm telling you, attack me, Daniel, you'll be OK. But it's kind of a mean game. But you just know that. And, you know, hey, if you lose, you lose. Daniel (48:14.28) Okay. Daniel (48:26.291) Right, right. I wouldn't mind playing with you sometime. Given the fact that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Since we break out in wrestling matches anyway. Right, Okay. Kevin (48:30.689) I'd love it. I'd love it. Yeah. The heart, the heart. That's right. We'd have to stop the wrestling match. The hard bit with arcs is there's a base game and then the campaign and you really have to play the base game a time or two to get the fundamentals down because then the campaign messes with all that. And it's a lot to try to absorb. That's the one thing with arcs why they broke it into two games, but the campaign game is where it's at. Daniel (48:48.69) Okay, okay. Daniel (48:54.737) Yeah, so you have to buy both. You have to buy both sets probably then, right? Yeah. Kevin (48:59.383) You would. mean, the base game is great and you'll like it. It's worth it. once you've played the campaign game, you're not gonna wanna play the base game, because it's just so interesting and cool. anyway, what about you? Yeah, yeah. Daniel (49:09.151) Yeah. Okay. Okay. So interesting. It's thanks for sharing that. That's a great recommendation. Yeah. Well, first of I love Trio. I'm so glad you mentioned that. That's I just, but I won't tell you more about that, but I just love that game. I got a couple games recently that I'm enjoying. Harmonies is a game that seems to be getting a lot of love right now. And I'm enjoying that. We played that at our our church game group last night. It's good. It's a kind of a tile placement game, which is one of my favorite mechanisms, except there these good chunky wooden tiles and you're building up a habitat and trying to place animals in the right place to get in the right habitat. And it's a beautiful game. It's one of those games where you have this little kind of wooden map when you're done, you look at it and it looks cool. Kevin (49:39.863) Okay. Kevin (50:02.144) Ugh. Daniel (50:07.274) Right. Like a guest from a long time ago on our show said, Adrian Adamski, says, look at what I've made. You know, it feels like one of those kind of games, which is really fun. Yes, yes. I enjoy it. I enjoy harmonies very much. But the other game I that we got, think I it's just I've been surprised how much I like. I knew I like harmonies, but I really, really like this other game, Forrest Shuffle, Forrest Shuffle. I don't know you've heard of it, but Kevin (50:07.522) Okay. Kevin (50:13.334) Yes, Creator of Sagrada, which is definitely that kind of game. Kevin (50:34.454) Yeah. I haven't played it, but I've heard of it, yeah. Daniel (50:36.538) It's just a delight. It is a delightful game. It's a delightful game. It is, it's a game where, kind of similar theme, you're planting a forest and then there are different animal and plant life that kind of take up residence around your forest. But it's all done with a deck of cards. And so you tuck, you tuck these cards underneath the trees. The certain cards are trees. Kevin (50:58.145) Hmm. Daniel (51:03.234) you're planting trees, but then you can talk like, there's a deer that goes under the left side of the tree and a raccoon that goes into the right side of the tree. And they each score based on unique qualities. and I just, I love that. I, I, I like card tucking games. so Kevin (51:17.473) Hmm. Kevin (51:24.981) Mostly because it's so easy to clean up. You just smash them all together. Daniel (51:27.949) It's so easy to clean up. I guess it's kind of like the card version of tile placement. You're just kind of like, yeah, it's super easy to clean up. I really like four shuffle. It's fun. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Kevin (51:33.471) Right? Check it all. Yeah. Kevin (51:40.107) That's cool. Wow. Yay. Games are great. Well, thanks, Daniel. This is terrific. And folks can find us at boardgamefaith.com. Daniel (51:51.125) or playsavestheworld.com. That's right, that's right. I understand, I understand. Yeah. Kevin (51:53.025) And that's exactly what I said. Old habits die hard. Yep. Playsavestheworld.com Playsavestheworld on Instagram. Daniel (52:01.729) Yep. actually it's ORG. Sorry. play saves the world dot org. Sorry. Yep. Yep. Yep. My bad. That's I should have. OK, OK. Kevin (52:10.527) No, let's redo that. I'm going to mark it. You do it, because now I'm afraid. How can people find us, Daniel? Daniel (52:19.705) people can find us at playsavestheworld.org. We would love to have you visit us there. or they can email us at playsavestheworld.gmail.com. We're on Instagram, Facebook, things like that. Kevin (52:35.915) Yep, I'd love to hear from you. Goodbye, friends. Daniel (52:36.875) Yep, we'd love to hear from you. Please join us next time as we explore more play stuff. Kevin (52:42.219) That's right. Until then, bye.