[00:00:00] Katherine Druckman: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Reality 2.0. I'm Katherine Druckman and I am talking to Doc Searls and we have a couple things to talk about, but before we get started, I wanted to remind everyone to visit us at reality2cast.com to find links and other things. Thank you. We have a new patron. Thank you. We appreciate that tremendously. And thank you to all the people who are signing up for our newsletter. We, we assure you, we will be sending one out soon. um, but yeah, thank, thank you for everybody for listening and, and for all of those things. So a couple things are going on in the world. We, we are on a pretty short release schedule these days. So this, this will come out tomorrow. So if you're listening this to this when it first came out, we recorded this. Yeah, exactly, exactly. so, so, uh, a couple of big things happened and one of them was yesterday. Apple had their usual announcements they've updated the, the watch, the phone, [00:00:56] Doc Searls: and the earphones and the yeah. And the EarPods and, and a way to not use passwords and logins anymore. [00:01:02] Katherine Druckman: Another thing, and I feel like we have to mention it because we know here we are living through this major historic event is that the Queen of England died. Maybe we'll talk about that a little bit, but, [00:01:13] Doc Searls: We could start there because I think it's a brief topic, even [00:01:15] Katherine Druckman: though it's yeah, it is. Yeah. We don't have, we don't have a lot to talk to say about it. I'm not an expert in English, British history. [00:01:21] Doc Searls: I was, I was waiting for the onion headline that says, God, God fails to save queen. Yes. I, I [00:01:26] Katherine Druckman: have seen a lot, quite [00:01:27] Doc Searls: few. I've been singing this for a long time and it's handy. That king is also one syllable. They don't have to change. Yeah. They don't have to song [00:01:35] Katherine Druckman: very much. If I were, if I were a person who had grown up singing it a certain way, it's going to be very difficult to break that habit. I feel like people are just going to keep saying queen. Yeah. Apologies to the new king. [00:01:47] Doc Searls: It is. Um, It is interesting. And I think it's probably significant as well as interesting that, um, you know, all bit of, you know, half a generation of, of UK residents have never known another Monarch in another. Another queen. And that she's been it for 70 [00:02:08] Katherine Druckman: some what? 70 years. And regardless of how you feel about there being a Monarch, you still that's the only one you've ever known. It's still, [00:02:13] Doc Searls: she's been a, she's been a constant, the only [00:02:15] Katherine Druckman: one you've ever criticized. Yeah. [00:02:17] Doc Searls: As close, constant, as you can embrace, you can have and, and has done it with, um, You know, great grace and, um, [00:02:27] Katherine Druckman: and I'm personally, I'm, I'm a fan. I'm a, I'm a huge fan. I, you know, I felt she [00:02:31] Doc Searls: she's cool the loss and, uh, [00:02:33] Katherine Druckman: she, she fixed, she repaired trucks in world war II. You know, that that's, that's where I think Charles is going to have a hard time finding his identity as king because you, you have this person who has been on, been on the throne so long and you know, and it was, [00:02:47] Doc Searls: um, he's been on the bench for a long time. [00:02:49] Katherine Druckman: yes, exactly. And she was so young, you know, when she became, I [00:02:53] Doc Searls: mean, it's just a, it's crazy, you know, how long she's been there. How do [00:02:57] Katherine Druckman: you follow an icon? [00:02:58] Doc Searls: I don't know. I mean, he and I were born within a year of each other and, um, My mother would be way over a hundred at this point, you know, she's born in 1913. You know, my dad was born in 1908, so he'd be a hundred 22 less eight, 114 years old. I mean, wow. His mother lives almost 108 though, so yeah, that's in his sister to 1 0 1. I, so there's some longevity there, but, um, and something to say for longevity, you know, we, we need our, we need our semipermanent, generation spanning characters. To take it to tech, I mean, I think, um, you know, Vint Cerf doesn't look any different now that he did 25 years ago. He looks great, you know, and, uh, [00:03:45] Katherine Druckman: He does look good and he, he rocks a three piece suit. [00:03:48] Doc Searls: He's he rocks a three piece suit. I once asked him if he wore three piece suit when he was in high school and his answer was. And I carried a briefcase. yeah. [00:03:59] Katherine Druckman: My dad always wore a three piece suit. Yeah, it's a thing. [00:04:03] Doc Searls: Yeah. Yeah. Funny. My father always wore a bow tie even though. He was about as manly as they come. I mean, he was, he was a high steel construction worker and, you know, crazy stuff like that. He liked the bow tie longshoreman, um, a bunch of things I have not and ever will be, you know, funny. He was those things. Um, yeah. Anyway, you know? Yeah. Hats off the queen, hats off [00:04:31] Katherine Druckman: quite a run, an [00:04:32] Doc Searls: impressive run long, live the King. Since he's my age. I want him to live a very [00:04:36] Katherine Druckman: long time. exactly. Yes. Hopefully my, my dad is no longer with us, but, but he was born within a couple weeks of Prince Charles. I've always had this affinity for the queen because she looked so much like my grandmother, it was weird. It was almost like a family joke because my, my grandmother, she even had the same hair, you know, in the eighties. And, she just looked a lot like the queen, you know, and then they, they, they gave birth to sons like, and around the same time and it was this kind of like family joke, but yeah, the queen had a much longer run than, than my grandmother. Yeah. Anyway, well there's and the princes, uh, the, the real prince outlasted. Good on her, [00:05:15] Doc Searls: my dad. So, so on the apple topic, I, I actually took a pause in our packing. We moved from place to place all the time. We're kind of like a, a bedoin couple or family. We, we, we, we change abode. I'm ready calling you right now from our, uh, the police. We sometimes stay in Los Angeles and next week we'll be back in Bloomington, Indiana, but we were in Santa Barbara and I, and I watched some of the. The apple thing. I missed the part where they talked about the new password replacement thing, but I, I do, I read about it today that they worked it out with other companies. It involves Fido and some standards and, and, of course PKI. I mean, it's, it's, it's key pairing all over the place. The passkey feature. Yeah. Yeah. The PA key pass key feature. [00:06:01] Katherine Druckman: But was that something that was just announced or was that I thought that was announced a while. Maybe it's been around. I, I, but I think it's been around [00:06:07] Doc Searls: for a little while. They did, they did mention that you're gonna be using the passwords less than less. And, and here's why . that sounds wonderful. Yeah, it does sound wonderful. And apparently it's something that at least isn't exclusive to apple for inside of their walled garden. The big interest to me is the, there are two things. One is they brag on the headphones saying that the headphones, the earphones, the ear PODD. AirPod pro twos or whatever they are, but is that it'll do Doby atmos spatial stuff. So your stuff recorded in Doby at most. You're only listening with two and customized to your ear. yeah. And it's gonna, it'll give you the three dimensional sense of surround. Now, an interesting thing about stereo is that I don't know if there are ever any patents involved in stereo, but you can create stereo very easily with two microphones. And two speakers and or two headphones, and nobody owns that. I mean, it's just, it's just, it's the way our ears work. It's the way you can set something up. You can create a sound stage with it, but doll be at most is, you know, it's proprietary, it's closed, it's patented. It belongs to a company, apple licenses it, I guess. And, um, Uh, you know, the open source side of me doesn't like that. And the other thing, which is much more interesting to me. As a photographer, is that what they're talking about with the iPhone 14? Not only made me want one, but made me almost have second thoughts on having just bought the expensive Sony SLR, um, mirrorless SLR that I'm using and love by the way. An A-74, it's a fabulous camera and Sony sells it. Fabulous glass to go with it. There's so much that could be done with these new phones that has an F one seven. The, the widest aperture is F1 seven. That's huge. And, and it, uh, it's a 44 megapixel thing. Um, even if that's gamed in some way, that's a lot. And they show some of what you could do with slowmo and what you could do with cinema. They're really going after everybody doing movies, but already with, with the portrait mode, you can do things with, uh, what's called key lighting and some other stuff that's really artful and. And a really great and fun tool to work with. And a lot of people don't know this, but if you're recording, especially in landscape mode, like let's say you're watching a band, uh, like's say a jazz, jazz band or a string quartet or something like that, where you're upfront and. They're spread out. And if you're recording that with your phone, it's in stereo and the, the two microphones are about as far apart, not quite as far as your own ears. And if you listen back to that, there's an amazing, your sense. You are there sense to it. And the microphones in an, in an iPhone are already remarkably good. They're not great. They do roll off in the higher frequencies, but. Very very good. And the, uh, I'm just amazed at how good they are actually, but I, I, and, but the problem is that apple is already I've read. They're outsell all of Android at this point. Is that right? Yep. They [00:09:28] Katherine Druckman: just, they just, the us gained, I think their 51% market share or something just barely, but yeah, [00:09:35] Doc Searls: we're at the point where almost everybody we know has iPhones and yep. um, there are family members that, that have gone back two. I can think two, two of our kids went to Android and then came back to the iPhone because they wanna be compatible. And because they're, it's just easier, better. And that's, you know, apple is becoming the Microsoft of our time. Like Microsoft became the IBM of its time and was sort of living in their world and, uh, I don't know if that's entirely a bad thing. I think it's a temporary thing. Probably like everything [00:10:14] Katherine Druckman: most likely it does seem. Um, but, um, is it, I don't know. I have a lot of, I have mixed feelings. It does seem strange for a single model of a single platform to have outsold all the others combined, you know, which there are many and, um, And, but there are reasons for that. It it's frankly, just easier to standardize on a single, a single piece of hardware, a single operating system, a single version of an operating [00:10:42] Doc Searls: system. Yeah. And, and how it works. I mean, I, I have, I have an apple watch, which I got for medical reasons on the advice of a cardiologist and. I expected to put up with it. I haven't worn a watch since I was like 25. I, I didn't like this thing hanging on my arm. Uh, and my phone worked fine as a watch for a long time, but I wear this thing all the time now and I actually love it. Yeah. Oh, I love my handy. I [00:11:09] Katherine Druckman: know. I rarely leave the house. And yet here I am wearing [00:11:12] Doc Searls: a lot's huge and it's not just for the medical stuff. It's like, um, I find the find my iPhone thing is really cool. I, I lay, I leave it here and there. I push it down. I mean, it's just, it's, it's a very handy thing to have. And, um, and the new one will know if you're in a car crash. I mean, there, that's another thing to like, Is this good or bad that the accelerometer they're, they've a new gyroscope and a better accelerometer within, I didn't know they were different. I thought your accelerometer was a gyroscope, but apparently there was a gyro function in the new series seven. Is it? I don't know. Latest watch or the latest phone for that better. Sorry. That's eight. The eight, the watch is eight to eight. It will know you were in a car crash. Yeah. It only knows if you fell down, I've had a co I've had nothing but false positives and falling down by the way. so, [00:12:06] Katherine Druckman: but, but how old is yours? Mine. Mine's pretty old. Mine. Mine. Mine's a five figure. Mine's a five. Yeah. Mine's a five also. It can't figure out. Does yours know, really get the, the hand washing thing? Mine is. I never really knows when I'm washing my hands. It can't ever, and then it'll figure out when I'm done. Yeah, it does this thing and it, yeah, it'll count down to make sure you're washing your hands for 20 seconds. [00:12:25] Doc Searls: You know, they, they bragged on how it's somewhat waterproof, but if it gets water in it, you have to like, Mm-hmm actually it twirled the, the crown for like about five minutes during which you think is this thing screwed or not? Is it screwed or not? And then it finally, it goes blip and the little, the little water drop disappears and it's okay. Yeah, but it, so. It's discouraging. [00:12:47] Katherine Druckman: Yeah. Something, something you mentioned earlier, which is, I think is interesting. And the reason that I responded the most in their, their announcement to the watch section, because the watch is the most interesting thing I think out of, out of those announcements. Mm. Um, and well, I, I suppose as a, you know, a more serious photographer than I am, you were into the camera, but for me, the watch and the, the health data and that kind of thing, I mean, Assuming you trust, you know, apple with your health data. And I think they, they arguably do a decent job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. But, but I think they they're, they're definitely doing the right thing with, with the data, encrypting it locally and all of that. Um, But what was interesting to me is something that you mentioned, and that is just that, that a company like apple has the ability to, to innovate in like real science in a way that few few do. And I think that that's the really interesting part to me is the, you know what, so now it can, it. It monitors, temperature, body temperature very well. It, you know, knows when you're in a crash. It probably actually now knows when you're washing your hands for real this time , mm-hmm, now that it's improved, but you know, yeah, my, I I'm waiting, you know, when, what else is it going to be able to do? You know? I, I feel like blood glucose is probably coming, I think, um, you know, all, all, all kinds of other things. I see a lot of potential in the watch as a, a health monitoring device, which I, in a, that in of itself is interesting. Who thought of apple 20 years ago. Oh, they're going to be, you know, involved in cutting edge health solutions or something. I think that's interesting. [00:14:24] Doc Searls: Yeah. It's interesting that, um, Uh, Marsha livin and his son, Eric, who I knew, um, uh, have these things called laws of media and the, the, the, the four laws at every new medium, um, enhances one thing, retrieves another obsolesces another and, and reverses. And the, the watch clearly enhances. The, you know, the ability to not only tell time, but to do many, many other things. It, it retrieves, um, you know, health and lots of other stuff, but, and it obsolesces an ordinary watch, but it reverses into what you're gonna have that something bad is gonna happen. Right. Yeah. And I think it's on the one hand, it. It's an extension of ourselves. Lumin also says, all media are extensions of ourselves. This thing on my arm is part of my body when I'm wearing it. Yeah. Right. It's actually part of me. And, um, but you know, is the reversal that we get too dependent on it or we're lost without it, or, or that, um, We have an instrument by which some Betty can come along and control all of us. yeah. You know, like a, like the, like the, some movie villain, like, [00:15:43] Katherine Druckman: like who I thought the same thing, the Kingsman right. Kings in, I mean, its a that's so funny. I had that exact conversation yesterday. That's one of my [00:15:51] Doc Searls: favorite movies. I mean it's, it's such a good movie. It's a great movie. It's it's complet. Nonsensical. And on the other hand, yeah, that is exactly, you know, it seems [00:16:01] Katherine Druckman: like it's a very, it's a plausible storyline, right? Some billionaire comes out with some cool new technology, gives it away for free saving the world and all of that and then kills us all. I mean, it seems totally reasonable to me. Yeah. At least the first part of the story, I don't know about the kills. That's all. I would hope not [00:16:18] Doc Searls: Andrew McKay movie, but the one that was out last year didn't get any awards, but it was. About about a, a, uh, a comment coming and hitting the earth and killing everything. Uh, no, don't look up. Don't look up. Yeah, that was hilarious. A similar point. I mean, the, the, the creepy dude that was, uh, the, uh, You know the genius who thought little, no, we just had to capture this thing and then we can mine it for whenever it's insane. Completely insane. Yep. And yet [00:16:49] Katherine Druckman: and yet . [00:16:51] Doc Searls: Yeah. And I don't, I don't have the sense that, that, um, oh, I don't know if you noticed, but the, the, the phone will now the iPhone 14 will do SOS to a S. [00:17:04] Katherine Druckman: Yes, I did see that. Yep. Satellite [00:17:06] Doc Searls: tracking. What satellites or whose satellites? Yeah. Is it Starlink? Is it don't ask something else. Don't ask . Yeah. And didn't go into that. So that was notably absent, secret satellite. It did say lower orbit, so it's pretty much gotta be Starlink, so they must have worked some deal with Starlink, but I, I don't know. Um, but it's, it, it, you know, and it even shows you where in the sky it is. So you can kinda like turn your phone this way and that. it can send a signal up and, and auto complete because is really low data rate. But if you're lost in a desert or some other thing, they can send help for you. Yeah. It's sort of an interesting thing. Um, and [00:17:42] Katherine Druckman: then speaking of lost in the desert that the giant watch yeah. Thing is surreal. . I mean, I don't know what to think about that. It looked kind of cool if I were into diving and I don't. Cliff jumping. I, I have no idea. I don't know what sort of sports . [00:18:01] Doc Searls: so I, you know, the, the, the disappointment for me with the, um, the apple announcement was that there was not an M two chip for the, uh, For the Mac book pro because I've been holding off. I mean, I, I hate to say, I would love to get a Linux box. I would love to get, you know, a purism box. I, but I'm not geeky enough. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, and I do photography and I'm used to this. Yeah. That that's the real, and I need eight terabytes, uh, at least. And, uh, and. Kinda saving up and waiting for the M two MacBook pro to get a, a 16 ish one of those. And they didn't come out with one so that, yeah. And this thing here that I'm talking to you on, um, is running something called kernel underbar task, um, at a very high rate, if it get. Hot. It turns out heat is an issue. And that's what it's trying to do. It's trying to deal with the fan. Yeah. Well, [00:19:04] Katherine Druckman: tr troubleshooting seems inevitable. I'm I'm not sure that , that alone should to rule out a Linux Linux laptop, but, um, yeah. But yes, I do see your point. You do, you, you need to have something that, that works for your, for photography and, and just [00:19:19] Doc Searls: works. Yeah. Just in general and literally, and it just works and if it doesn't work, I can call a number and somebody helps me. Yep. Um, and. And, uh, as tech support goes, It it's been up and down, but mostly up with apple. I was on with the phone with them all this morning, because on my, what I do is I shoot photos with the iPhone and then I transfer them by something called export unmodified, originals to a directory in the computer. And then I mix them in with photos of shot with the, my SLR and I sort. Created the time it was created and it's making up photos makes up a time. It, it makes when it transfers it out, it doesn't know it, it gives, it puts another time on it. And I spoke to AppleCare and I was punted up to a senior guy and he said, I gotta send this to engineering. And we actually took, uh, we did a screen recording of how this worked, how it happened and that got sent to engineering. So. Hopefully I'll hear back and we'll see what happened, but it's debugging and I'm helping them debug, whatever this is. I suspect they're gonna come back and say, oh, oh, oh, oh, you're using an old operating system, which I am, but I don't think the operating system is to blame in this case. I think it's some other function. It's an app thing. [00:20:41] Katherine Druckman: So how, how old is the laptop [00:20:44] Doc Searls: you're using now? It's five years old. It's uh, 2017. Oh, oh, that's not too bad. It's not too bad. It's it was the top MacBook pro of its time. It's a 15 inch with maxed out memory and, uh, Ram you know, all of it. I just bought the top one. I, uh, at that time, [00:21:05] Katherine Druckman: I think mine is 2019 end of 2019, maybe. Yeah, it's great though. It's it? I, I intentionally and I have to the disclaimer, the whole, I, I work for Intel thing, but I swear this , this was way before that I intentionally bought the Intel version because I was skeptical actually. I mean, I know the, the M one, um, an M two processors have been great and they're super fast. And, but as a, as a software engineer, Somebody who works on code. You know, I, I had heard too many stories about people's, you know, development environments and, and getting things running. Um, if you're working on a Linux based environment, um, it's just, yeah. Anyway, There are reasons that why it was, it was, I, you know, I thought it was more beneficial to stick with Intel rather than jump into the unknown on that. So, so I went on in, so my, I hope mine will last for a long time. [00:22:01] Doc Searls: and it's great that you work here for Intel now, [00:22:03] Katherine Druckman: you know, I know, and now I work for Intel [00:22:04] Doc Searls: they're a bit of the underdog brand loyalty. I kinda like that. I mean, I kind of like that. They've got reason. , you know, put the pedal to the metal and do some creative, new stuff, you know? Yeah. I think they owned the world for a long time, so, yep. I, you [00:22:19] Katherine Druckman: know, I still when I started, I, I suddenly ever since I, I, you know, started talking to Intel at all, I have the, the, the jingle in my head, you know? Boom, boom, boom, boom. [00:22:29] Doc Searls: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:22:31] Katherine Druckman: yeah. Anyway, it's, you know, it's, it's an iconic brand. [00:22:35] Doc Searls: They're very solid. I, I don't know who makes, um, apples chips, but it's 0.2, five nanometers is the geometry, which is really, [00:22:46] Katherine Druckman: I dunno, doest, Taiwan, semiconductor make everything that it's probably the Taiwan. I [00:22:50] Doc Searls: actually dunno the only ones that can do that. I've actually heard they're made in multiple places, but I mean like in depends on the chip, right. Could be, but that the, I, I remember some of the, the M one is actually like a combination of, of China, Mexico, Finland, and some other places, but I don't know how you do that. You, you have to fab these things up and, you know, put the ships in plastic and have the pin outs and all that. I don't think you send. From place to place, but it could be the science and it comes from all those places. I used to love looking in like, actually, if, if you, if you do some retro computing stuff and you look inside the motherboard of, of a PC, say from the late eighties or early nineties, you saw chips from all over the place. You saw them from, you know, to Thailand in Germany and, you know, Israel and you know, all kinds of places and not just. You know, not just, uh, you know, Motorola, I guess it would've been for apple and, uh, and, uh, us for, I mean, and, and Intel for, for the, for PCs or AMD, which are us, but the, but there were chips all over the place and they would say the name of the country on there. And now that it's all integrated into one, just a part of one chip who knows. Something just jumped into my mind. Um, yeah, let's see. Let's see if this does something which is ask the listeners what they'd like us to talk about. Hey listeners you've troubled to do this. I mean, it could be just what we're doing now, which is, you know, something has come up recently that's of some interest, but, uh, what would you like us to talk about? We might not do it anyway. [00:24:27] Katherine Druckman: but no, I bet we will. I mean, it depends on what it is I suppose, but yeah, I would love [00:24:34] Doc Searls: topic suggestions. We do, you know, there are IRC chat back channels that when you're doing it live, you know, that. That's sometimes bring in, bring in good questions or just good ki good topics to, to chew [00:24:45] Katherine Druckman: on every once in a while we get, we get email topic suggestions. A lot of times, you know, it's funny. We, we get people with open source projects, for example, because you know, people know us as, as, uh, open source enthusiasts and, and mm-hmm people and, and, you know, we have the Linux journal origins. So yeah, we get, we get some of that, if there are any projects you wanna learn about, or if there are any topics or tech policy or anybody, anybody, we can go find experts to talk about. There's, uh, be happy to do that. [00:25:16] Doc Searls: I'll throw this out because I just love that. I love and hate the title. It is a, a working title for a book that's by somebody who wrote a book earlier. I wouldn't say who it is. Uh, that was about saving the internet. I mean, how do we keep the internet from being run by giants and keep it for people? And the new working title for the next book is, well, we tried [00:25:41] Katherine Druckman: nah, we're not [00:25:45] Doc Searls: giving up yet. Yeah, but I, I, I'm still trying. I'm still trying. I still, I'm still, I'm still an optimist. [00:25:52] Katherine Druckman: Last week we talked about the DWE camp. Did you, do you feel like you've got, uh, some traction for some of your projects and you might get help that way? Yeah, [00:26:01] Doc Searls: actually we have a number, wait with number. The number is two, but we have two, two standing proposals for, for development that for development work that we can. We could literally take to a funding source and say, we wanna do this is what it's gonna cost and see what happens. We can't take, this is customer commons, we can't take, uh, corporate money, but we can take individual money. We could take foundation money. So, so it'll, you know, or for that matter, we could even put it in a Kickstarter or something like that. You know, that mm-hmm that, uh, Where people could contribute that way. Uh that's but we've, we've got two very good concrete proposals. Uh, and in addition to that, we have we're involved in conversations with, with people who are doing cool things with the social side, cuz that the, that the, the, the money one is for the business side, but for the social side, like how do we get people, uh, in a neighborhood, in a, in a town involved. Uh, in a way that's not just, uh, better signaling for what people want, uh, commercially, but where people can talk to neighbors about things constructively. Um, you know, I mean, in Bloomington, for example, I mean, a topic that is interesting to me is, um, what are you gonna do with the hospital property? Where the old hospital was, it's very close to where we live in Bloomington. And, um, it was being knocked down actually, as we were leaving town and. That's a hospital that was there when we moved in and now it's gone. and then there's a much nicer hospital on the other side of town that replaced it. But the old hospital grounds are still there. What are you gonna do with it? That's an interesting thing. Neighbors could come up with something for that. Should it be a park? Should it be, you know, [00:27:50] Katherine Druckman: and that's something that the platform you're working on solves. [00:27:53] Doc Searls: Yeah. It, oh, I wouldn't say it solves. It's like, how do we have better conversations? How do we have conversations that move forward and go somewhere? And aren't just. As opposed to next door. I, so here here's yeah. As opposed to next door though, speaking of next door, because I wanna know about it, I got a next door there. And if you go on next door, it does a thing where it does this two factor thing. You know, the usual thing, like you're gonna get an email and respond to that email. And now you're in, right. I never got the email and they said, what is an alternate way? Which is we will send you a postcard to your address. And then you respond to. I didn't get the postcard either, but I'm still on the, but I still get to see them. I can't participate, but I get to see the mailing and it's all very friendly. Bloomington, I think is a very friendly place. No, it, none of this stuff that I saw about, you know, it's so like the, this, uh, water main broke, we like this doctor, that kind of thing. We're looking for help with this person or, you know, what's the best hospice approach, that kind of thing. But, one of the things that I've thought about is I think you could have an interesting. Public list where the one rule is no complaining. You can't complain about anything , you know, and, uh, another one would be no politics, you know, it can't go can't, can't, can't do politics at all, which makes it hard to discuss politics. But I think. In much of the country. Now that discussion is not happening anymore. It just isn't, it's too divided, but, but I think that if there are some basic rules that involve that, I think it's kind of like, What can you say that's constructive or what you'd ask that's constructive inherently? Um, that might help. I don't know. We'll wait to see a big part of what we're doing is about governance and the Ostrom workshop, which is where we're both visiting scholars. My wife and I, um, is a center at Indiana university that is devoted to study of, of governing the commons and. Ostrom who is, was behind it. She's gone now, but she won a Nobel prize for her work on the commons. And she has eight rules for governing the commons that she derived from her research. And we're curious to see, you know, how we could apply that. Cuz she died in 2012. I think it was kind of before the internet got fully rancorous, uh, you know, like it is now mm-hmm so. How would you govern that? It's kind of an interesting approach, so we're kind of probing that. [00:30:37] Katherine Druckman: Interesting. Well, if you wanna pitch our listeners, I suppose now is a good, yeah. [00:30:42] Doc Searls: Oh yeah, sure. We're looking for developers. there you go. doc@searls.com. You know, just first name at last name.com. Reach out. [00:30:53] Katherine Druckman: Cool. Yeah. Let you know, let doc know if you're interested in working on his project and uh, we'll talk to you next time. [00:31:01] Doc Searls: Yeah. See you next time.