Dusty Jones: Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math, teaching, podcast the teaching, math teaching podcast is sponsored by the association of mathematics, teacher, educators. a community of math teacher, educators, learning to teach math teachers better. I'm your co-host, Dusty Jones and joining me today is Joel Amidon. Joel, how are you doing.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Great, dusty, glad to be here.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, me, too glad to see you. Yeah. Today we are talking with 2 guests, Dr. David Coffey and Dr. Catherine Coffey. They are related. Dave is a professor of mathematics at Grand Valley State University, and Kathy was an elementary mathematics specialist and adjunct professor at Grand Valley State University. Until very recently we're talking with Kathy and Dave to learn more about their new book, designing math adventures, using design, thinking to support the teaching and learning of K. Through 8 mathematics. Welcome, Dave and Kathy! How are you.

David Coffey: Doing well, how are you.

Dusty Jones: I'm I'm doing great thanks. Yeah. Could you each take a minute to introduce yourselves beyond what I already shared?

Dusty Jones: What did I, Miss Kathy, I kind of teased a little bit that your your role has changed. I'll start with you.

Kathryn Coffey: Yes, yeah. My role has changed. I started out as a elementary, a 1st grade teacher for 15 years. Then I was at Grand Valley for about 5 years, 3 as a visiting professor, and then to on and off as an adjunct professor, and then I left Grand Valley and went to a small urban district, Muskegon public schools in Michigan, and I just retired from there in June of 2023. So it's been. This is starting my second school year of not teaching.

Dusty Jones: Oh, wow! I that must be so weird. Dave! What about you?

David Coffey: I think the only thing that, particularly for our conversation to add was that I was for a few years the director of the design, thinking academy here at Grand Valley.

Dusty Jones: Okay. yeah. And we'll get into that talking about design thinking and what that means, and how you've kind of packaged it in a really nice way to help elementary teachers, middle school teachers think about that. how did the 1st question we've got is, how did you start teaching math teachers, and then maybe why did you choose to do that, Dave? I'll I'll throw that to you first.st

David Coffey: So this is a long and winding road. I'll try to just make sure I hit the highlights. I was in the early nineties. I was a middle school math and computer teacher. I was also doing a lot of professional development around a system called outcomes-based education. If you're not familiar with that that was sort of a early combination of project-based learning and ungrading and social emotional learning. I really was enjoying that I was enjoying what was happening in my classroom around that, and I was enjoying working with teachers. I was, however, a little frustrated because of what I was seeing the students that were coming, what was happening before and what was happening after in the math classes my students were taking that there was very much a sense of sort of let's teach math like we've always taught it. So I was a little frustrated with that. but didn't think there was anything that I could do it, so I was just kind of doing my my own thing. Meanwhile a good friend of mine was taking classes to keep her certificate up to date, and I was like, Oh, I kind of miss being at at the university. Let me give a call and find out if there are any math education courses I might take. So I called Western. Talk to thethe unit head there the department chair, Ruth Meyer. and she said, Well. not only do we have some classes. We have this new program where, if you're a Phd. Candidate, we'll hire you as a part-time faculty, and so courses will be cheaper and you'll have benefits all of these things. That was not what I was looking for. I was looking for a single class, right? But and I don't think I can't remember exactly. I didn't. I don't think I came out and said, Yeah, that sounds great. I probably took some time. however, ultimately going back to wanting to make a bigger difference and really enjoying working with adults. I love teaching. Middle school, however, working with adults, was felt a little bit more in my wheelhouse, and so I started at Western in like 1994, and got my Phd. And then got hired here at Grand Valley.

Dusty Jones: Great. What about you? Kathy.

Kathryn Coffey: Well, I said to Dave this morning, when I think was thinking about, how did I start teaching math teachers, and why I was thinking about it last night, and I said, sort of an abs, it's absurd, almost I started out actually as a well, as a 1st grade teacher, and then in the early 2 thousands, with no child left behind the big. The push was reading, and I know Dave actually did some some of his service work in my classroom, so I can remember telling him that I teach. I'm here to teach them to read, not to do math. No, I mean to do math, too, but my primary at that point my point of view was that it was primarily to do to teach reading but then and then I don't know. That was early. 2,000 around 2,004 or 5 I had an opportunity to train as a literacy coach. and through the through the learning network, which is where the when we get talking about the book, the teaching, learning cycle, and all those things that I learned. I learned from them, anyway. So after a few years of doing literacy coaching, I could see so many connections to what we were doing, the good things we were doing in literacy that could be transferred into mathematics teaching them and I can remember again telling Dave I see all the connections. I just don't know how to do it yet.

Dusty Jones: Hmm.

Kathryn Coffey: So so so I continued that then the then the coaching program was discontinued, and I was. I had just finished my education specialist certificate in education leadership. And there was a Grand valley, had a cooperative program with Eastern Michigan University for to continue on in a Phd, so I started that. And all these things just sort of started. They fell into place. There was an opening for a visiting professor in math education at Grand Valley and Dave told me about it. Then he stepped out of the way, and I went through the interview process and was hired, and when I look back, and you know I mean I had done a lot of extra things in mathematics. So that wasn't a surprise. And yet, on the other hand, it kind of is a surprise, but it was. It was exactly what I was looking for, and it allowed me flexibility while also working on my on my Phd. In in Ed. Leadership. and to to go back a little bit. I really did find as a literacy coach that I really did like working with adults, and I love 1st graders, too. But it was, you know, it was more challenging and more intellectually interesting in some ways than than than teaching 1st graders. So I was. I looked forward to that opportunity, and that's I felt like I could make a difference right. And I felt like the difference I could make would be to help connect the things they already know. And they're already doing. Into literacy.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: Into math, or to to connect that in from literacy into mathematics, right.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, that's that's really an interesting route. You know, there's there's kind of a maybe typical is the right word. There's a typical word, a typical route to get into teaching math teachers. But that's by as Joel as we've had these conversations, there are so many different routes So there's not. I don't know if there's a maybe typical is not the right word. But there's some ways that it's like. Yes, obviously, this is the way to do that. And then there's these other things that it's like, wait, these people really bring a lot of experiences and connections from other things like from the literacy world that we could implement in math education to really help students in in both of those fields. Yeah, yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Marilyn Strutchens coming from the fashion world right? Wasn't that.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, that was, that was a wild one.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): That was a unique one. But anyway, sorry. Sorry, Kathy, I interrupted. You.

Kathryn Coffey: Oh, that's okay. I was just gonna say, I just felt I've have felt really fortunate in my career, having come from a classroom teacher to to Grand Valley teaching teachers. And then, when I left Grand Valley I went to the school that I went to. I was their elementary mathematics, specialist.

Dusty Jones: So.

Kathryn Coffey: Really felt like I'd come full circle and I'm not sure there was much more to do in a in a career.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: Really, it felt like I had a nice, a nice closure.

Dusty Jones: So, Kathy? What was some? What was the best advice that you received when you started teaching math teachers.

Kathryn Coffey: You know, I think probably the the best advice I got was when I started coaching right. And we continued into that teaching. Math teachers is building relationships. build relationships with your students. I mean, regardless of the age, but especially with adult students. They they want to have a connection. And so I think that that was probably the best advice that I got.

Dusty Jones: Yeah. definitely, what about you? Dave.

David Coffey: Well, my 1st dean here at Grand Valley was Doug Kinsey. He was a former well, he was still a math professor, but he didn't teach a lot of courses anymore. And he, my very 1st year he met with a bunch of 1st years, and he talked to us about the work in academic spaces and thinking about the areas of service, scholarship and teaching. And at Grand Valley, he said, all of those have a place, and early on in your career. Think about. If you're familiar with vectors, think about vectors, it's great. If all of those are sort of headed in the right direction. I'm not quite sure I fully got on board with the metaphor, but I understood what he was saying, and I actually tried and thought about transferring it to this idea of using Venn diagrams. And so Kathy talked about me going into her classroom right? I was going in there as both a service opportunity. But then there also became opportunities to do scholarship. As a result of that work. It I was. I would be fortunate enough to come in just early enough to see that literacy stuff that she was doing and going. That's what we want to be doing in mathematics, that kind of problem, solving comprehension, those sorts of things. and so I could really see the idea that all of these things, early on in my career it was helpful to be able to put all of those things sort of in in the same area. Going into Kathy's classroom helped me in my teaching. It helped me in my scholarship, and it helped me in my service. Later on, when I was again had a little bit more some years behind me. Then it became easier to kind of diversify in in those areas. And I found that happened a lot. For instance, when I was in the director of the Design thinking Academy very, very few of the things that I was doing were all pointed in the same direction. But fortunately I'd had that that firm foundation. Early on thanks to to Dean Kinsey.

Dusty Jones: That's really cool. And it is nice when we can find those synergies between those different areas that that on paper look discrete like the service and the scholarship and the teaching. But it's great when you can be doing one thing and then say, Oh, wow! This really helps out in that other area. Yeah. And I was fortunate the Grand Valley actually, not just accepted it, but encouraged it right? It wasn't. It was okay to double and triple dip in those ways. In fact, again, it was encouraged. The idea that we were using our our research, our scholarship in our classroom was applauded and incentivized actually, so. That's that's great. Yeah. at what is a word or a phrase or a quote, or maybe an image that helps you center the work that you do in teaching math teachers. I'll ask you that, Dave first.st

David Coffey: So I'm a huge fan of Ted Lasso, and that dart scene where he says, Be curious, not judgmental. I really resonate with that. Now I think he misattributes that to to Walt Whitman I think there's some evidence that he never did say that, but it doesn't change the power of that statement for me, and it really reflects what I hope happens in my classroom, especially with 1st year. Pre-service teachers is I want them to get curious about their own thinking, but also curious about kids thinking, and then not be judgmental about it. And again, particularly with their own thinking. It's very easy for them to start going down a path thinking about some mathematical problem or mathematical concept, and then immediately, say, Nope, that's wrong. I can't do this, and I I want them to instead. No, don't, judge. Let's just be. Continue to be curious about this, and think about how we can build on that.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, that's that's really cool. What about you, Kathy?

Kathryn Coffey: Yeah, I think acceptance is probably the word that I would use to center any kind of teaching. I do but acceptance. And then my, the woman that trained me, Becky, who trained me as a literacy coach, would always be like so acceptance. You've got the students you've got, what can they do? What are they trying to do and focusing on that rather than what they can't do? So focusing on what you know, accepting them where they're at and and and then really trying to identify. And so many of the the pre-service teachers that I taught have a less than I don't know. They don't have a good relationship with math. They want to be reading teachers. They want to be a science teacher. Social studies. They really very few of them wanted to be math teachers, and they had. I don't want to say. I know there's a there's been a discussion about is math trauma a real thing. my anecdotal, you know, my observational experience would say. Probably some of them are really quite terrified. And so accepting them where they're at, and and then naming what they're what they can do and what they're trying to do helps build their confidence.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Well, and then going and adding on to that, Kathy, like you're talking about, you know, accepting, you know, the the teachers accepting the students, and who they have like even thinking about the pre service teachers that are coming into our classrooms, or the in-service teachers that you're talking about, like if they have like not had a great relationship with mathematics. But yet mathematics got them to a place where they're actually a teacher. Right there they had some sort of relationship to get them to that point, that that now might be an asset to help others like, Hey, yeah, I haven't always had the greatest relationship with math and like, well, we'll we're gonna we're gonna reconcile this together. We can figure this and like, Hey, what's what's the asset that you have to bring into the classroom in order to help again develop the relationships with those students. And so yeah, I like that acceptance. But then also, they really like the Ted lasso like, that's yeah. That's that's big for me. So.

Dusty Jones: So one of the things.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Too late. Cut it up. Sorry, dusty.

Dusty Jones: That's all right. One of the things that that Joel and and Jen and I are asking is really just to help get advice for ourselves. And and one of these is so this next question, it's selfish. It's selfish. Question, how do you set boundaries and priorities within and outside the work that you do. We're just trying tocollect as much as many tips as we can. We're we're not claiming to be the experts, and we're not expecting our our conversation partners to be the experts. But do you have any tips or things that that you do. Kathy? I think it's your turn to start with that one.

Kathryn Coffey: I laughed at this one because I don't have any. You know I can do whatever I wanted to.

Dusty Jones: Yay!

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Retire.

David Coffey: Answer to all of our problems.

Kathryn Coffey: No, then it becomes because it becomes a different problem. You have to like, then discipline yourself even.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: But as far as I mean how I've been setting boundaries this past year is I've been saying yes to things that bring me joy.

Dusty Jones: Hmm.

Kathryn Coffey: Is is this, whatever? This is because I have had some opportunities to, you know, to continue to work in math, education, and other roles and So the book has been a filter for me. If it involves something involves the book like this, then I say yes to it. But there have been some things I've said no to, just because I I guess I don't even know how to explain it. But I want to. I wanted to at least my 1st year, to be really focused on actually retiring, because so many people I know fail, if you will, at retiring, they go right back to full time work, and many, I mean, I'm full retirement age. Most of the teachers that I retired with are 1513, 15 years younger than I am. So they are. There is time for them to do some other, you know, career or whatever. But I feel like I wanted to, you know, to really immerse myself in retirement. I've been saying yes to my grandchildren, to my, to my own adult children, and actually doing a lot of watching of my grandchildren which has been hanging out. It's been wonderful. I was with my the middle one there are. We have 5, and I was with the 4 year old all day on Monday, and we went to the library to story time. And then we, you know, we made some bread, and we went to the park, and then we picked up the older 2 and took them home. I made dinner, and and my son-in-law and daughter came home. So you know, I've been saying yes to those kinds of things because it's really life giving. And there's a lot of joy in that.

Dusty Jones: Great.

Kathryn Coffey: Yeah. And there's joy in in thinking about the book. But other areas of method right now I'mI can't. I just have to. I have to say no, so that I can do those other things.

Dusty Jones: Sure.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yeah.

Dusty Jones: What about you, Dave?

David Coffey: So I've heard, I think several people on the podcast. Talk about the Eisenhower matrix, the what's urgent, not urgent, important, not important.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

David Coffey: And I found that really helpful when I was introduced to it, especially in my role as the the director of the Design thinking Academy to be able to kind of identify what those things were. Sometimes they didn't ball directly into any of those. And then sort of my metric was Kathy's point of is this life giving or life sucking and if I could avoid life sucking stuff, I wouldn't. But, as all of us in academia know there's certain life sucking stuff that we have to do.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

David Coffey: In those cases one of the things, and we talk about it in the book as well, because teachers have some of those same things. One of those things that I got really used, or or or tried to embrace was this idea of prototyping right that I had to get out of my head that whatever this life sucking thing was, I hope I don't get you guys an E by keep saying sucking. I don't know. That's what I think that's okay. Yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): That's okay.

David Coffey: Anyways. If I had something to do like that, I needed to try to quit doing it perfectly. especially if it was probably something for the hires up. They weren't even going to pay attention to what I wrote a lot of times right? And so so if instead, I could treat it as a prototype, and if they did pay attention and they needed me to change something, they'd let me know. And so so I started thinking about these things, and what that prototyping meant was. I'd set a time. I have lots of playlists that are like an hour long. I'd put on the playlist, and at the end of the playlist I'd hit send, I'd be done. And again I'd know I'd get feedback if it wasn't what they wanted. Now, if it wasn't something that was important I might spend a little bit more time on it. But but for those things that we're not important but urgent. I I got really comfortable thinking about these are just going to be prototypes, and I can tell you there's probably on one hand, since I started doing that where I've gotten it back and said, Oh, we also need this. But most of the stuff I'm I'm it's out and done.

Dusty Jones: Right. I I just taught a class of freshmen about the unit in my university studies class

Dusty Jones: about the Eisenhower matrix 2 days ago, and that things that are urgent but not important. Eisenhower delegated those, but he was the President so he could delegate them. But I'm I'm having. I, I said honestly, I'm having trouble talking to you 18 and 19 year olds about things that to delegate. Because who are you going to tell your roommate that they need to do this and does that. Is that going to go over? Well. you you take out the trash? Yeah, so. But but thinking about just kind of setting that using that prototyping thing. I I like that. And that that comes from design thinking I'm I'm guessing. So that's just a good transition to my next question, Dave, what what is design thinking? And as the former executive director of maybe I'm expanding your title of the design thinking Academy. Can you tell us about what design thinking is? And then you both feel free to chime in Kathy? How does that relate to teaching math teachers.

David Coffey: So design. Thinking is essentially like a problem solving system. It's a a set of methods and mindsets that help people find innovative solutions in particularly challenging situations. It's it's meant to put people at the center of the work. And again, collaboration and creativity are sort of essential elements of of a design as design challenge. When it comes to teaching for me, it goes back to again those early years of mine where it's like, how do I help teachers make adjustments to their what they're doing? Because I'll tell you what guys teaching doesn't look much different than it did when you know we started it hundreds of years ago, you know. There, we've got worksheets on tablets sometimes now, and and things like that. However, so much of it looks the same we are. We're in a rut. and ruts aren't necessarily bad, right? They keep things moving forward. They can help us feel comfortable. But if we're going to start thinking about making adjustments and meeting and embracing more people in doing mathematics. Then we need to to venture out into new territories.

Kathryn Coffey: I, Dave, is the Dave. Is the design thinking expert? I learned everything. I know everything I know I've learned from him, so I will, I will totally defer. I don't think I have anything I can add.

David Coffey: Well, everything else in the book I learned from her, because it's all the literacy stuff. So again it was we made. We made a good team.

Dusty Jones: That's that's awesome. Speaking about the book. So I think I might have stumbled over the title earlier, designing. Yeah, designing math adventures. The subtitle using design, thinking to support the teaching and learning of K. Through 8 mathematics. How do you hope our audience, mathematics, teacher, educators, will use this this new book which there'll be a show notes link to the Amazon page there. But how do you hope math teacher? Educators can incorporate this in in what they're doing?

Kathryn Coffey: Go ahead! Dave!

David Coffey: Well, you said it earlier, so why don't you, when we were talking about it.

Kathryn Coffey: What did I say you mean this morning?

David Coffey: Yes.

Kathryn Coffey: Oh, okay, so yeah, we're, I guess. What we're hoping is that it will humanize mathematics mean. yeah, humanized mathematics, that it's a human endeavor, and it can be. You can be creative with it. And we also there's also a an element of planning that you have to plan right. A lot of nobody ever watches teachers plan. Student. You know. Everybody's been in school for 18 or whatever years, but you never saw your teacher plan and the ones that planned the best. It looks the least obvious, right? It looks like it's coming naturally right? And so there's an element of that. That I'm hoping that that that we can in, you know, kind of infuse. It's not like a necessarily a topic of the book, but infused in that planning and using the design, using the design, thinking cycle. Thinking about lessons as prototypes. They don't have to be perfect because no lesson or plan ever survives its first, st you know. contact with people. So students, adults, or children, and so kind of thinking about that. And and then all, and and then, seeing how that teaching and learning cycle and the design thinking process really they overlap how they overlap.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): This got me thinking? Oh, sorry!

David Coffey: Oh, go ahead! Joel!

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Well, I was just so. I worked with some professors at the University of Wisconsin, Erica Halverson, and rich Halverson, and they got us to think about design. this design sort of framework, and the when you talked about the humanizing aspect of it, Kathy, like. whenever we were thinking about either a policy or a curriculum, or whatever it was like, like we're thinking about, we're having intentions. And we put in features into this thing. And then the other side is, how do people take it up? Right? Because I could say, because they use the example of that Saturday night, live skit where you know it was Will Ferrell. It was like this, artistic designers like sit in the chair, and the chair looked like a big, like a spiky ball, and it's like that's not a chair. It was like, well, I designed it as a chair. But how do you perceive it? Right versus like here? So good we we should put a link to it in the show notes, anyway. But the but the but the design design is like, I need to be thinking about who's taking this up right, like versus like a plan. I could just put a plan into like plan and and like whatever I'm just going to execute it, no matter what happens versus design, it feels like I'm already considering forward about how people are going to take this up. So there is that so like that embracing the human side. And just, you know, even thinking like my, my iphone just updated to a new the new Ios. And it's like. okay. So how do I take this up this new thing that they've designed? And and now put on my device? So I just like that just already, that forward thinking about how? How is this being taken up and and then engaging in that sort of like refinement process? I don't know. It's good.

David Coffey: Well, and the the humanizing part that that Kathy brings up is we wrote it because of our own experience is K. 8. But I was just working with some secondary student teachers yesterday. and one of the things that comes up is they love the content. I mean, I was a secondary teacher. I love the content. My goal was to teach calculus. I loved it right. I love doing that. However. What I found too often is that at the end of a lesson, a unit a year. I was the only one who had made it through the content. And soone of the things that we really that that when I 1st was introduced to design thinking was this focus on putting people at the center of the work and continuing to keep them in the center throughout the whole thing, not just say giving that lip service, but doing that work. Christopher Emden's work with the Cogens, for instance, is a great example of sort of that connection between education and design. And so how do you design with not for these students? How do you? How do you get feedback from them immediately? I mean, we always talk about the feedback going from us to them. How do we get feedback from them about how we're doing so we can make the necessary adjustments. And so one of the I talked about there are these mindsets. And one of the mindsets is this idea of radical collaboration. you know, and we all love that idea of radical right getting to the root. So how do we get to the root of this. It's not about me. It's not about the content. It's about the kids, the students who are in those seats. And that's the humanizing part. How do we make sure that we're connecting with with them?

Dusty Jones: I'll go ahead and and plug your other. Talk on this that I know about. With Sam Otten on the math. Ed, podcast we'll put a link there. Cause I just thought of like another 30 min of stuff we could talk about that I heard on that one. But I'll just. I'll just point our listeners over there if they want to hear some more on that, Kathy. I I stepped on your words. I'm sorry.

Kathryn Coffey: Oh, that's okay. I was just thinking about teachers. And I mean, hopefully, it can give them a lens to look at how to utilize their curriculum. You know so many districts are. Now, you know, you have to teach it with fidelity, and do with exactly what's on the page. That's, I mean, there's that sort of pressure. especially. Well, in all area, all subject areas, I guess, and hopefully it can give give a lens to. Well, if my students are at the center and they're not ready for this yet, or I need to do something else first, st then they need to do that and go ahead and prototype that until we're ready for this lesson that's here on the page.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

David Coffey: Yeah, and that, and there's so you use Saturday night live. I'll talk about Monty Python. There's a Monty Python skit where it's an it's an Italian class, and the the professors teaching Italian to these folks, and it turns out everybody's from Italy, right? And so so, but follows through on the plan of what he was going to do without really thinking about it. And again, how many times have we maybe taught that lesson because we we put so much blood sweat, and tears into that lesson. even if it wasn't at the right spot, either. It, you know it wasn't that Goldilocks lesson. Yeah. So, which again, if we can get teachers to think about this as an experiment, and then say and not say, Oh, next year I'll teach it differently. It's like, next time, how do I? It's it's a cycle. So how do I? Maybe tomorrow adjust what I I tried today.Yeah, that's great. I like the idea of that incremental testing and and refining and and trying those new like, let's try something new instead of Oh, gosh! That was bad. Well, next September, when I teach the Eisenhower matrix, it's gonna be right. Yeah.

David Coffey: Well, and, like Kathy, said, we were really, truly amazed by how many teachers? Well, and let's keep keep with the Eisenhower theme right. What did he say? Plans are useless, planning is essential. And so we were really amazed by the number of teachers who didn't have a sense of what it looked like to plan. I I would have. I'd go in and do observations, and afterwards I'd do the debrief. And I asked, so how did you come up with these numbers you did on. The example is, I just came up with them, you know, hadn't thought through any of those things we have. We know somebody who's just starting teaching this year, and she's really struggling with the idea of what does planning look like? It wasn't something that they spent a whole lot of time on. And one of the things that my students that I use this in a course of 323 courses for stats for K. 8 teachers. They afterwards are like, I'm starting to use this in my other courses because they don't feel like they have that that system, that framework to be able to do that in.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, I think it was a far side cartoon. Maybe that had a big stadium all around, somebody doing a math problem. And as a joke, you know, like this is. this is the contest. But because people don't usually aren't spectators to people doing mathematics at the large level like a sporting event. But yeah, that lesson planning is really kind of a something that's unobserved by the student. But it's like you, said Kathy. It's the ones who do the best at it. It looks like they didn't plan it because they have just done so well. Sort of like magicians. you know it. Just everything goes really smoothly, and you don't see what you're not supposed to see. But I like the idea of using design thinking to bring that planning to the forefront and the prototyping, and that those you know trial, those repeated trials, experiments, I think, is what you called them with that that's great. The book again, the link will be in the show notes and people. It's less than $20, I think, or if you want the kindle edition, it's even less than that so? Very, very accessible, I think readable. for for those future teachers and for those who are teaching future teachers, and for those current teachers, I guess that's also who it's for. Let's transition a little bit. What's something you like to do outside of your role as a teacher of math teachers. Kathy, you've already said, you know, spending time with grandkids and your adult children. But what? What's something else? I guess I'll.

Kathryn Coffey: Yeah, well, I we both love music, and I. Oh, I don't know what. Maybe 1112 years ago, we were at a concert, and I was just fascinated with the fiddler, and I, said, Dave, I think I could do that like. Where did that come from? He rented me a violin, a fiddle, a violin for my birthday that year, and so I have spent the last 10 or 12 years learning to make somewhat reasonable music on it, and.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: Next weekend. There's a there's a summer camp for that's multi-generational our granddaughter actually came with us the last 2 years. So I go to that fiddle camp in the summer, and then there's another mute. It's a music camp, this coming weekend, actually, that I'm going to the Great lakes music camp, and which is right in our neighborhood like near us. So I get to stay at home and just be a day camper. But I I really love doing that, and I kind of alluded to it in the story about spending the day with my grandson, but baking bread. And I can't even begin to go into all the math that's involved.

Dusty Jones: Sure. Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: Because I've switched from like using cups to actually using weight in grams, you know. Okay, yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yes, weigh it. Why, yeah, exactly.

Kathryn Coffey: Awesome. It's awesome.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yeah, feel like you're on the great British baking show. It's like, it's awesome.

Kathryn Coffey: Yeah. And there's this great brown bread, Norwegian brown bread recipe from my grandmother, that's all in cups and all that, and it's makes like, I don't know 6 or 8 loaves. And I just want to make one or 2. So I'm gonna try to start converting that to. To that metric system. So I find out the proportions. So I see if I can recreate it on a smaller scale.

Dusty Jones: Oh, that's cool. That that fiddler you must have you seen must have been really good. It's sort of like watching the Olympics like I watch. I'm like, Oh, I can swim.

Kathryn Coffey: And.

Dusty Jones: You know.

Kathryn Coffey: In fact, it was trans. Siberian orchestra I don't know familiar, and he had this cool like V shaped electric violin, and I'm that is so cool, but I think I could do it like.

Dusty Jones: Yeah.

Kathryn Coffey: Why would I think I could do that? But anyway, it turns out I actually I can. I mean, I'm not great. I'm I feel like this summer. I just I just made a big jump from being a like a a beginner to an advanced. You know, I feel like I took a big jump this summer. So that's good.

Dusty Jones: That's great!

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Well as Dusty knows. If you want to play in Texas you gotta have a fiddle in the band. That's true. That's that's cool.

Dusty Jones: According to some sources. Yeah.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Exactly.

Dusty Jones: Dave, what about you? What do you like to do outside of your professional role?

David Coffey: So one of the things Kathy and I've really interested in also is travel. And so we we've for our 10th anniversary. We walked across Scotland and. For our 20th anniversary. We walked across England. We also have a travel trailer called Scampi Mcscamperson, and we take it lots of different places. And again, an interesting story, maybe for another time, is that we actually had to use design thinking. We got to designed the camper. They built it kind of primarily for us camp does. And so we had to use design thinking to figure out exactly what we wanted to put in it. We, you know, put ourselves at the center and started brainstorming and things like that, so we couldn't necessarily come up with a prototype. But we could come up with some examples of blueprints and try it so.

Dusty Jones: Oh, that's neat. Yeah.

David Coffey: Yeah. So we yeah, we we try to do a lot of traveling. This last year we just went to Hawking Hills in Ohio. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's a beautiful, beautiful, not what you'd expect from Ohio, from a Michigan guy, not what you'd expect from Ohio.

Dusty Jones: Right. That's saying a lot. I realize.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Yeah, there, we go.

Dusty Jones: Alright! Is there anything else to promote or share

David Coffey: Yeah, I'd like to. So I have a couple of podcasts that I do with my colleague, John Golden, one is teaching, like Ted lasso. So hence the be curious, not judgmental quote. And then we also started one called Teaching in Tanzania. I have taken over the role of the director of our study abroad program to Tanzania. And we're trying to to tell the story about what that has meant for students who are going there. And then, finally, I will be presenting at Amte this year on some elements of the the book. And hopefully, if we can get funding for some of our student teachers. They're gonna be there with us. But we'll be talking about using some of the the tools in the book, and especially around reflecting, and that that iterative process that you were talking about so.

Dusty Jones: That's awesome. I'm I'm glad that you're able to share that with the people face to face. And in Reno at Amte I was about to ask you. Do you know when that is? But I know the program doesn't come out till.

David Coffey: Yeah.

Dusty Jones: Like like what specific day and time? Not till later. But we'll

Kathryn Coffey: Like early February, though early.

David Coffey: Yeah. But but yeah, dusty was asking about specific.

Dusty Jones: We can't. We can't nail down the time and say, Here's when we're gonna go. But we can say that's 1 thing to look forward to. If you're planning to go to that Amt conference in February in Reno. All right. Well, thanks you 2 for joining us today, and thanks everyone for listening to the teaching math, teaching, podcast. If you like, what you hear, please subscribe to the podcast. We hope, you're able to take action on something you just heard and interact with other math teacher educators. Also, did you know that Amte has another podcast the math teacher, educator, podcast it accompanies the latest edition of the Mathematics teacher, educator, Journal, and has authors discuss the work they have submitted for publication to the Journal. We'll put a link to that in the show notes for this episode as well.