Ivy: This episode is brought to you by the gender studies program at Westminster College. Welcome to the Trans Quarantine, the show where we look at the lives of transgender folks during the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm Ben Hastings. I'm a sophomore at Westminster college. I identify as non-binary and I use they/them pronouns. Dustin: And I'm Dustin Hardebeck. I am a third year student at Westminster College, and I use the pronouns he/him/his. In this episode, we looks for trans community of Salt Lake City, specifically how this group of the LGBTQ+ community of Salt Lake City has been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic. As far as our background research, Ben and I have read in a series of articles from New York times, Salt Lake City Weekly and Vice. Gender dysphoria is strongly and unfortunately common among the trans community, which is influenced by many factors. One of the most prevalent being subject to transphobia from people with close relations, including friends and family, among whom one would expect to be supportive and understanding to the act of coming out as transgender or gender non-binary. Addressing this act of coming out will be a prominent discussion point in our following interviews. The first of whom is a fellow classmate of ours, Enan who identifies as transmasculine, and our next guest will be another classmate of ours named Cam who identifies as gender non-binary. The following two guests are both, identify as transgender, first of whom is named Hilda and she is a high school student here in Salt Lake City, and our final guest, Lewis, identifies as trans male and is also a classmate at Westminster college. In our first interview with Enan, he talks about his origins of coming out and this following second. Enan: I came out sophomore year of high school, have been, um, medically transitioning for over four years now, got top surgery three years ago, been on T for over four years. Um, and got my name changed before I graduated high school. Did all that fun stuff. Ivy: Yeah, that's awesome. Um, I'm super happy for you. Especially figuring things out like sophomore year having been, uh, medically transitioning on the hormones for that long, like, wow. Enan: Yeah. Ivy: That's awesome. Enan: I’m really lucky that I've had the opportunities to be able to do that kind of stuff and have figured it out when I did. Ivy: Yeah, and I'm happy for you, so. Enan: Thank you. Dustin: Yeah, likewise. Enan: I appreciate that. It's been interesting for me. Um, so I, right before, um, the quarantine started, I actually had a, um, gender related surgery. Um, uh, I got a hysterectomy, um, because it was very medically necessary due to some stuff with my transition. Um, so I was already kind of planning on, okay, I'm going to have to sit and chill for six weeks. Um, and then that six weeks became, I think, about 70 days in quarantine. Um, and so I was already kind of prepared, more so than a lot of people were, to just be at home without seeing a lot of friends for awhile, um, and being in the hospital for three of those days. And then it just all kicked into high gear, like the day, while I, one of the days I was still in the hospital. Um, so it's just been kind of weird to come back and try to figure out life and figure out what to do. Um, my mom's my biggest ally. Um, I have to, like, make sure that my door is closed so she doesn't know that I'm, like, talking about how great she is. Um, can't let it get to her head. Um, my mom's my biggest ally. Um, she's been there for me above and beyond what I would ever expect a parent to be, um, for any child, let alone somebody who's trans. Um, and my, um, the family that I am close with, um, all accepts me and is wonderful and just handles it really, really well. Um, and, um, yeah. Um, I have a really supportive family. Ivy: That's, that's great. I, I don't even know, like, it must be so nice. Enan: Oh yeah no- Ivy: I don't want to guilt trip you. Enan: You're absolutely not like, no, that I'm really lucky, like compared to, um, a lot of my friends when they were first coming out, like I have heard horror stories of, um, one of my friends who bought a suit for queer prom and his mom found it and burned it in the fireplace in front of him, like this $500- Ivy: Jesus. Dustin: Holy- Enan: -and things like that. And that compared to like, ‘Oh yeah, the first year that I was out for Easter, um, my aunt had a little cookie that had my name on it and it was blue because all the boys cookies were blue.’ Like it's just. Crazy to me how, like the stark difference. It's amazing. Ivy: What does your relationship with your family look like, you said you were living with your mom? Cam: Yeah. So my mom and then my younger sister is 16, so I'm also, um, with her. Ivy: Okay. Yeah, um, are they supportive generally of your identity? Cam: Um, I think that they're supportive and that they support me in general and want me to be happy. But sometimes when it comes to putting the work in and actually like, um, making any effort to like use my correct pronouns, um, it kind of slips their mind and it's definitely not a priority. Um, I am a lot more comfortable, like correcting people, um, in my family now than I used to be, but I haven't come out to my uncle yet. And he's really Mormon. He's the only one that's Mormon, though. Um, and I think it's just, like, I don't know why I'm so scared to come out to him, but I think it's because I just, like, I know that he's very strict with his religion and his religion doesn't believe that people like me deserve to get married or have the same kind of love. And that's just like really hard to swallow. So I kind of just avoid it. Um, yeah. Um, but it was always just a matter of, like, pinning it down for me because a lot of other terms just didn't sound right to me. Um, and a lot of other identities I've tried out just like, weren't exactly the fit, but yeah. Ivy: And being in these early stages of kind of realizing your true identity, how does that make you feel about it? Are you insecure at all? Um, if you don't mind me asking, of course. Cam: Yeah. Um, I'd say I definitely question pretty much everything I do. Um, uh, like I'll, especially when it comes to like what I'm wearing or like my hair or, um, yeah, definitely more of the physical things I question like, am I doing this because of my identity or am I doing this because I'm, like, is this a product of my new found identity? Or is it like the other way around? Um, and kind of like, sometimes I feel like I'm developing a, like toxic masculinity, not toxic masculinity, but like a tough guy. And I'm like, that's so weird. Like, why am I so, against feminine things. I definitely always question like femininity and masculinity. Um, I'm a very like abstract thinker. So I kind of like have those thoughts, um, going through my head a lot and now I just talked a bunch and I don't even remember what your question was. Ivy: Honestly, I don't remember either, but it's not important because we're getting good stuff here, so, okay. Cam: Oh, you asked if I was insecure. Um. Ivy: Yeah. Cam: Yeah, I think especially, like, trying to date now as well is really difficult. Um, because that online presence is like the only thing that people are seeing. And, um, previously I was in a relationship with a cishet man. Um, and part of why that didn't work out was because, um, I just didn't feel that it was, they saw me as who I was. Um, so anyway, it's been weird for me. Like, like, I've felt uncomfortable in a lot of ways physically and just romantically because I felt like it wasn't the same attraction and like, that's really hard for me cause it's like not affirming in any way. Um, yeah. Ivy: Is there any media you're consuming, whether it be movies, or TV shows, music, anything, video games, that uh, has kind of been like, um, helpful in either treating your dysphoria or anxiety or anything during quarantine. Hilda: Well, okay. I-I'm a user of Reddit. Um, I'm a big fan, I guess. Uh, and there there's so many amazing trans subreddits and just LGBTQ subreddits. And so I, that gives me a lot of support. Um, I, when I got like my first dress that I wore, um, from my mother, I posted a photo of myself on, uh, one of the trans subreddits. Um, just saying like, ‘Hey, it's my first day, like in a dress, and I'm just starting to kind of accept myself as trans. I could use some love,’ and, you know, people were very accepting and nice in the comments. Uh, and so just browsing tran, trans subreddits, and, like, seeing other people's transition timelines or just like reading about other people's success stories. Ivy: Yeah, um, I don't think I actually follow that subreddit anymore just because I think maybe it started to become a little bit too much when I was considering like, uh, taking hormones and undergoing everything, which is still totally up in the air. Uh, but I don't know. I do think it can be a very positive place, and at the same time, I worry, like. Some people get caught up in this like trans fantasy. I don't know. That's a funny way to phrase it, but of being like this, like cutesy anime, like, neko girl. Hilda: Yeah. Ivy: And some of that is like, It makes me a little bit uncomfortable because the trans experience oftentimes is a lot uglier than that. I'm just like, you know what I mean? I'm not saying, like, that in an offensive way, but- Hilda: Yeah. I, I definitely, I see that and I feel that in the sense that like, when I first was like, ‘okay, I'm trans I very much just want to like become a girl, you know, I wish there was a button I could push that, boom, I'm, I look like a girl, I talk like a girl, walk like a girl, you know, just this perfect quintessential female.’ And that's just not how it is. It's very much this. And I mean, I can only speak from my own experience, which isn't a lot because I just started, but, you know, I. I don't wake up as a girl. Like I get, it must be that's it. I don't wake up looking like a girl and being this biological female, I have to work for it. And it's not an easy thing. I mean, that's why it's work, but it is, it's something that is worth it because especially since I'm young enough that I will spend the majority of my life as the woman that I always have been, it's worth that difficulty and going through this dysphoria and dealing with that, and dealing with, you know, the difficulties that will come with hormones and with surgery, it's worth it. Ivy: And I think a lot of these things can kind of be a barrier, uh, for a lot of, um, kind of, uh, what would you say, uh, trans folks who haven't maybe realized their identity yet? Not wanting to transition because they just wish, like, they were born cis. Like, I don't want to be a trans woman. I want to be a cis woman. Hilda: Yes. Ivy: That's, that's so hard to deal with. And yeah, I kind of worry that, um, a lot of those people on the subreddits, maybe, I don't know, get a skewed version of femininity in a way. And partially because they're pushing so hard like that, um, unrealistic idyllic, like anime uwu. Hilda: Yeah. Ivy: Type of thing. Hilda: Yeah. Ivy: Um, yeah. Um, yeah, this is all great so far. Uh, I think the, the Reddit side of things is super interesting. Something that nobody we've talked to has, um, touched on yet. Hilda: I will say- go ahead. Ivy: No, you go ahead. Hilda: Okay. I, I will say sometimes it's too much, you know, like I'll go and I'll browse trans subreddits, and sometimes I just have to stop because if it's trans timelines and I get to see these people, post photos of like, ‘this was me before hormones. Now look at me. I,’ you know, ‘I look like this beautiful, perfect woman.’ And, you know, I'm only seeing two photos, I'm seeing these two extremes. So it's, it is that sort of idea of just becoming a cis woman overnight. And so like with that, I can get a bit, like uh, disheartened, uh, just like seeing all these great success stories and like, yeah, I feel good I'm like, ‘wow, I could, that could be me.’ But I also feel like, ‘Oh, That couldn't be me, or that is going to take more time than I want.’ Um, and so there is that sort of aspect of kind of being beaten down with positivity in a way, which is weird. And I that's, it's just a bit difficult for me. I, some of my worst, like times of being depressed or feeling dysphoria have come from browsing trans subreddits too much, which, that could also be I'm feeling dysphoric and depressed. And then I browse the subreddits to try and cope. And then there's this sort of, like uh, false connection between the two where I was already feeling this way and it wasn't caused by the subreddits. Um, but I think, I do think, you know, seeing others' success stories is helpful, but should be taken in moderation sometimes. Ivy: Absolutely. That's what I was just about to say. Dustin: Yeah. Ivy: Okay. Anyway, I guess we should move on to the final question. And once again, Dustin, anything else to add before then? Dustin: Yeah. Well, I think I, um, I just had a brief, uh, question about like, um, your experience, like as a trans woman in Salt Lake City culture, like, um, it's like briefly, if you don't mind me asking, like, in what ways is that like, different, like, better or worse than, like, other places you may have been to? Like you mentioned Orem before, but if they're like better and worse? Hilda: Well, I definitely think Salt Lake is better just because it's, it's this kind of like, I don't want to say liberal, like, stronghold, but it is this more accepting. Like, I, there are a lot more people in my neighborhood, uh, especially that like have trans flags up or who I know as people who are supportive of the LGBTQ community, um, where like, The people that I know in say Orem or Spanish fork, they aren't as accepting or as supportive. Um, and I haven't been anywhere like out of the state as a trans person, just because I figured this all out during quarantine. But I like, I planned before quarantine. I had plans to go to New Jersey, um, in July. I'm not doing that anymore. Um, but, uh, there, I know is, like, it's a lot more accepting. Um, and I mean, of course, you get to New York where you have things like Stonewall and just this, it has this rich history of that. So if I were to live there or to just visit there, I definitely think I would have more acceptance in places like New York and New Jersey, or I have friends up in Washington. And I think that would be a place where I would also get a lot of support. So I think there are places to kind of look out for. Um, and I think Salt Lake City, isn't the worst. I, I mean, of course I am this kind of bright-eyed bushy-tailed kid, but I have seen a lot of people. Ivy: All right. Um, yeah, I think we're about ready to. Wrap it up. So, uh, final question. If there's anything to the culture of Utah or Salt Lake City specifically that might contribute to these feelings of paranoia or negativity as a trans person? Enan: Um, I think salt Lake is one of the safer places to be in Utah. Um, like I know for a fact that's the case because I get a lot less attention here than I do in other cities. Um, I feel actively safer in Utah. Then when I go down to Provo, like I can wear the same outfit in Salt Lake and Provo and get completely different experiences, I could wear the, or wear to Cedar city and have a completely different experience. And I think it, um, it's because all the cities, as much as they're all connected, um, by being state, in a state, and also the fact that there's a religious majority in all of these cities that religious majority is sometimes a lot more vial when they have, when they feel like they have power and im Salt Lake City, they don't really feel like that. Um, it's very clear that this is a city that is slowly being taken over by non-Mormons and ex-Mormons, um, and the gays, um, and it's, uh. So I feel like I'm safer being in Salt Lake City. Um, but that doesn't mean that I don't still worry about being in Salt Lake City because that religious majority and there, um, that in my experience, a lot of them, um, there's just a lot of bigotry in a lot of their thinking. And they are very, very passive aggressive to the point where like, I would worry that if something were happening to me, they would just kind of brush it off as like, ‘Oh, it's bound to happen. You're queer. This is what you get for being visibly queer.’ Um, but that's getting into probably the paranoia thing. Um, So it's because it's just what ifs, honestly. Ivy: But you're not religious. Enan: No, ex-Mormon. Ivy: Ex-Mormon okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. When did you leave the Mormon church? Enan: Um, I left before I came out. Um, I left right around the time that I moved to Utah. Um, so nine years ago, um, I come from, uh, on my mom's side of the family, very, very, um, old Mormon family, like my um, ancestors crossed the prains, plains with Brigham Young level of old Mormon family. Um, but they've still been, which is, they've still been very accepting, which is interesting that like this family that has these very deep Mormon roots and this religion that is now turning into a religion of bigotry, I'm still able to, even my very Mormon family members are very accepting of me. Ivy: You're saying that this religion has turned into a religion of bigotry. I would argue that it's kind of ingrained in their religion at least. Enan: Yeah. Ivy: And I'm not trying to point out like some kind of logical, yeah. Um, but I guess what I'm trying to say is having those ties to the Mormon church, How does that like impact your mindset now? Enan: Does it still kind of loom over you? I know I know, that I, um, I know that my truth is different than the truth that they have. Um, I know that they are just categorically wrong about whether they say, yeah, when they're saying things about gender and sexuality, they're just categorically wrong. Um, They don't know what they're talking about. If Mormon God is real, they are not speaking to that God, as far as I understand him, um, there not being good mouthpieces for that God, they're just speaking to their own human bias. Um, I, with the spirituality that I've been able to find, I know that I am correct in the assumption. It, the assumptions that I have made about my gender and it's, if there's this Christian God, then this happened and he's okay with it. And my soul is male. And that's the end of the story. Like the, yeah, the sex I was assigned at birth, it has nothing to do with what God intended for me. Ivy: That's a great mindset to have, like, that's really cool. And I'm glad you have that kind of confidence. That's super important. Enan: It took me a couple of years to get to that point. And just especially with like Mormon guilt, which we all talk about like ex ex Mormon guilt, um, kicking in every once in a while, but I have just been so sheriff my gender for so long, and just knowing every step of the way has just reaffirmed to me that it is cracked and that I am doing the right thing. And I'm helping myself more than I am hindering anything. Um, and the God that I would wish to believe in would not want anything different from life for me, he would want me to be happy if there is a Christian God, I believe in a lot of gods. So. . . Ivy: That's awesome. Yeah. All right. Um, I think there's maybe one thread we haven't touched on in less. Uh, Dustin, I think you're muted, but yeah. Do you have anything else to add? Dustin: I was actually hoping to ask, uh, just before we move to the last piece, um, I think toy stores going back to gender roles are the worst when it comes to that, like, I remember going to Toys R Us when I was younger and there was basically the left wing of a store, which included like the soldiers and like toy story beach balls. And then the right side of the story you'd have like Barbies and dolls and. I actually, true story, when I was about eight years old, I wanted a Barbie doll and I got a lot of shit from my mom and dad and sister about that. And I didn't care. I wanted that doll. Enan: They're cool. I mean, granted, um, I was talking to my mom about this actually a week ago, take that she should have figured out that I was trans a lot younger, um, because, um, I would like just tie my Barbie dolls, like with little nooses or like pop Ken’s head off and like weird stuff like that. Like put Ken in a wedding dress and like put him in the Barbie van. Like she should really should have figured out that I was doing something weird with my gender by then. Ivy: For some reason, Dustin, when you said the left-wing of the store, I thought you meant like the, the progressive side. Enan: ‘The liberals have the toy story and the Republicans have the Barbies. I'm thinking’ Ivy: ‘God damn libs in their trans agenda and they're trans what is. They're buzz light years. Can't admit that they're toys.’ Woody is canonically trans you cannot convince me otherwise. Enan: He is a twink icon if anything else, if nothing else. Yeah. Deep trans, deep thinks. Ivy: Yeah. So I was going to ask that, uh, you mentioned you're looking to get top surgery this summer. Do you think quarantine has created some kind of like anxiety or uncertainty about the future of that? Do you know if it's going to happen still? Lewis: Yeah. Um, I do not yet. I started looking into it right before spring break. Uh, and so, I traveled the week before spring break as well. I ended up doing a weekend trip. Um, but so two weeks before spring break, I did the consultation, which was the first consultation I had, uh, done for top surgery. Um, and I liked the doctor and we got everything set up so that I'd get the gender dysphoria letter from my therapist. They were gonna check in with my insurance and, uh, set a final date. And we set a like loose bracket of like in between the middle of June to the middle of July is when we wanted to aim for, um. And then between the traveling I did and then spring break, I was on spring break when the close happened, which is why I was stuck with my family for a little bit. Um, but yeah, so during that, I kind of lost hope for a little bit and lost contact, uh, just because people were, things were closing down. Uh, no one was worrying about these kinds of, they're necessarily surgeries, but they're not always seen as necessary. Um, especially when they have more immediate cases of like, dealing with people with coronavirus. Um, so all of that was kind of like just pushed to the side on the burner, um, and now that things are starting to open up again, I've started to reach out again and I'm trying to contact them. Um, it's difficult though, because we have to do all contact through phone and I don't like calling people on the phone. It gives me a lot of anxiety, especially when it's surrounding something that is such a weighted topic. Um, after the first phone call I did to set the, uh, consultation, I cried for a solid hour, hour and a half. Just at the idea of this being possible. Um, so there's definitely, I've had lots of breakdowns around the why, if it not happening, um. But I do know that some surgeries have been happening a little bit and are still being scheduled. Um, they're just going to be a lot more isolated, in the form of like, if it were to happen, no one else would be allowed in the room with me besides like the doctors and I had been expecting to have a group of friends come to the hospital with me. Um, I had been expecting like the weekend before this was my like loose plans, uh, to have a little party so that all of my friends could like write me little notes and enjoy spending time with me. Just to like, take my mind off of like, the day coming up, uh, and also have like recommendations of TV shows and people signing up for like emails when I'm healing and all of that. Um, and the fact that like that party will definitely not happen with the social distancing is sad. Uh, and I would also need to be get tested, I will also need to get tested for coronavirus before getting the surgery, which is very annoying because that is a decently invasive test with the, like going into it. And that was today. Um, so all of those things are like very not exciting and make this feel very, or much more scary. And this is also, this will also be my first surgery, um, which already had a lot of fear around having surgery is scary because you go under and then you wake up and something about your body is different. Um, and I've only ever really been in a hospital twice. Uh, so this would be my third time ever being in the hospital. I'm very lucky in my health and, um, physical health at least, but it does, like, there's a lot of weight on this happening. Uh, and the idea that it won't is terrifying to me, um, because I had also, I had this planned out for a whole year in advance from last fall. I wanted to wait a full year of me wanting it. And then I started the process of like, finding a therapist who would diagnose me and looking into the different surgeons and all of that. Um, and so the idea that like this plan I had back in 2018 is getting disrupted is really annoying, because I wanted to do it in the summer so that my healing would not be affected, would not affect any of my schooling or any other requirements that I have during regular semesters. Um, and I didn't want to do it during a break in case anything bad happened, and it would be more difficult to come back to school after. Um, so this is just like a lot of variables that are all affecting this and that it's just the most completely terrifying thing. Um, I don't know if I've ever been so terrified of something not happening and, uh, my personal way of dealing with things that I'm terrified of is avoiding them. Uh, which is something that is not helpful in this case, cause I need to get this figured out, uh, and avoiding it would not make the issue go away. Ivy: And I think we've all experienced some form of turmoil over the demise of plans that we had, but for trans people, it's a lot different because it's something that's essential to your identity. And to have that up in the air, just like you said, that's, that's terrifying. Yeah. Lewis: It really is. Ivy: By the way, what is the clinic here looking into, if you don't mind me asking. Lewis: Yeah, I'm looking at the University of Utah Health. I was planning on doing, um, Isaac Goodwin, I believe is his name. Um, but now that everything's happening, if they're still, if we’re having issues with communication, I might be looking at other places just, uh, to see if there are some other possibilities. I really need this to happen. Ivy: Have you tried to communicate with them? Lewis: Yes, I have. Um, it's just been a lot of like, we need to do, check this thing and then we'll get back to you and then they don't get back to me, which I understand. It's very, everything's very confusing right now. Ivy: And before the quarantine, would you say it was easier to be in contact with them? Lewis: Oh, yeah, for sure. Ivy: Cool. Lewis: Yeah, no, there was a lot quicker responses and, um, it was easier to get the certain people on the phone. Ivy: Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned the University of Utah Health department, because that was one of the sources we were looking at. Um, so they are still open, they're just not, not very communicative. Lewis: That's been my personal experience. Um, I don't know if other departments are doing better, but, um, yeah, it's just been a little bit harder to communicate. Ivy: So you're not aware of any other clinics that are open, nearby. Lewis: Um, not currently, they were the main ones I was looking at from the beginning, because I know a lot of people who have gone there, like personal friends. And to me, that was like a very big thing of like, I've seen the results firsthand. I've hung out with these people and that like that's trust for me and like a mental sense. Um, and like really eases my anxiety with that. Um, I, am, depending on how the communication continues to go, I will look into whether or not some other clinics are open, but I haven't yet done too much research into that. Ivy: Yeah, no worries. So that must be so disheartening. Yeah, I did already say, nevermind. Okay. Uh, Dustin, anything else to add? Dustin: Um, I guess I kind of. And have, um, if you don't mind me asking Lewis, just mentioning or bringing up again, the, like, you're kind of like annoyed and terrified where the whole disruption about from the coronavirus pandemic and like waiting for something to come to fruition that you've been like waiting and planning for a long time. Like, I'm just kind of wondering like, um, something about coping mechanisms is like, um, maybe in terms of like, um, bringing up support again, is there like different ways you're like coping with this terror? Lewis: Yeah. Uh, my go-to coping mechanism is distraction while I prepare in the back of my head until I'm able to then face whatever conflict. Ivy: If there are any cislisteners, what would you say to them about the trans experience? Enan: Um, in general or quarantine specific? Ivy: Either or, yeah. I mean you can do both if you want. Enan: Um, that, let's see. I'm trying to think of how to word it. Sorry. Um. There's a quote that I can't remember who it's by and I'm s- and I greatly apologize that I cannot remember who this quote comes from, but, um. Ivy: No worries. Enan: It's, it's from a, um, essay by a black woman and it's um, if you are paraphrasing it, it's basically, um, ‘If you want to be my friend and you are white first forget that I am black. Second, never forget that I am black.’ Um, and I think that rings true for any minority, with friends that are in the majority group. Um, I want my friends to forget that I'm trans, I want cis people to forget that I'm trans, but I never want them to forget that. Um, I want them to realize, try to realize how much things affect me day to day in ways that they will never be affected or ever have to deal with. Um, but also not dwell on that too much because I've spent enough time dwelling on it. I don't need them to as well. Um, it's just that basic realization that our experiences, whether they seem very, very similar cis people’s are fundamentally different. Um, but we shouldn't be treated differently due to that. Um, and it's just that messy place that we all need to exist in. And I wish cis people would feel more comfortable existing in that messy place with me. Ivy: That's beautiful. Enan: Thank you. Ivy: 10 out of 10. Um, I guess in reference to quarantine specifically, would you change any of your statements or reword them? Enan: Um, I would probably also add quarantine specifically that, um, as much as I know that a lot of us don't have the emotional energy to be reaching out to each other right now. Um, reach out to your friends that are marginalized. Um, especially mentally ill friends that are marginalized because we exist in places where, um, we fall through the cracks a lot of the time to begin with. Um, and then with a pandemic nobody's thinking about the fact that trans people aren't getting life-saving surgeries, um, people aren't thinking about the, um, hormone appointments that people have to go to and get blood work done, whether they're even able to do those. Um, nobody's thinking about legal name changes. Nobody's thinking about the, the transition side of things, but also people just aren't thinking about the people. Um, we are selfish creatures, especially when we're all going through stressful situations, but we need to fight that. Selfishness and help the people around us as much as possible. Lewis: Yeah. Uh, dear cis people. It sucks. It's um, I think that there's a lot of resources that are lacking because we're changing the whole way that we function in the society. Um, and so there's a lot of things that you're not considering that we as trans people are missing out on and feeling, uh, feeling harmed because we're missing them. Um, and to you, these are, might be things that are like completely overlooked. Uh, and that might be like the space in which you're having enough, like having your own room, which might get taken away from you if you're like getting moved back into your parents, um. And those kinds of things. Uh, and I think that, like, it's just really important that you try as a cis person, you try and seek out media and people who are trans, um, and resources that talk about trans things, so that you can educate yourself and that you're not constantly asking the trans people in your life, um, what's happening. Uh, the other thing is that you probably know a trans person and you don't know that they're trans. Uh, so please be considerate when you're talking about these issues, um, that you never know for sure what your listeners’ identities are. Ivy: I love that that's such a good answer. It's like. . . Dustin: They're more elaborate than I was expecting for sure. Ivy: This episode was hosted by Ben Hastings and Dustin Hardebeck. Our show was produced by me, Ben Hastings and Dustin Hardebeck. Thanks to Enan, Lewis, Cam, and Hilda for appearing on the podcast. Also special things to Kristjane Nyordeyer and Eileen Chanza Torres who gave us helpful feedback along the way. Dustin: And a very special thanks to everyone who gives their respect, understanding, and acceptance and the people of the transgender community, as well as the general LGBTQ+ community. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in and thank you to anyone and everyone who is fighting the good fight for trans lives. And shout out to our cis listeners who are aware of these struggles and who are trying to make them better known. Thank you. Jared: This episode was produced by the gender studies program and the sociology department at Westminster college editing and sound design by Jared Winn, music by Lou Crumbo. And our local was created by Catherine Nelson.